There's a line in the book that reads "most like a spider she was" - this along with the fact she had a stinger, makes me think she was merely a demon whose closest form was that of a spider rather than a shapeshifter.
Yes, that line is indicative of what she was. But also, that a lot of beings/animals had yet to take their final form - so part of the creation myth/dreamtime of Middle Earth. Where did the evil creatures come from? For example - another equivalent set of species to Ungoliant and Shelob were the dragons - who appeared to diminish in power and strength until what, they became lizards and garden spiders? Smaug I think is an equivalent beastie to Shelob - great and mighty yes - but still, shadows compared to the power of their antecedents.
I agree. I always understood "in spider form" to be a form that greatly resembled a spider, but different. I never understood it as Ungoliant and Shelob being able to shapeshift.
Old literature often refer to stings as the wounds gained from venomous like bees, spiders and snakes. Bees could sting, and many falsely assumed that this was true of other creatures. Snakes in particular were thought to sting with their flickering tongues, perhaps because they were so fast. Spiders were probably assumed to sting the same way bees and wasps do because of their similar body types. Basically, Tolkien made a mistake, but it can be forgiven since it's fantasy.
@@michaelmccarty1327 I doubt that Tolkien, perhaps one of greatest linguists of all time "made a mistake". It's not like the spider anatomy was somehow uncertain in the 1950's. He writes "spider like", not "a spider". So for the spider to have a stinger is perfectly fine in his World. I think we can assume that Shelob had a stinger, but where it was placed on her body is not known. I personally like that it's on her butt, because it just looks so scary that way.
I don't read it as her being able to shapeshift, just that she's an embodiment of evil, or born of some sort of dark energy. Also shoutout to the OG Sam Gamgee being the only confirmed being to ever wound her
I'm trying to remember for certain, but I seem to recall Tolkien saying that Sam was the true hero of LOTR. And of all the casting choices in the films, they nailed it with Sean Astin; even though he rather embarrassingly admitted he'd never read the books until he was cast in the role.
Imagine living for over 6000 years, feasting on men, elves and orcs, become known for being terrifying and not to be fucked with And then you get got by a pissed off gardener
@@Werewolf.with.Internet.Access Only a gardener would have enough experience with spiders to not be afraid. Almost every spring I have to clear out a million spiders who've recently hatched in my flower beds.
@@calebcarroll7641 Lol, there's an element of truth to that. I used be afraid of spiders. Things would make me jump out of my skin. Then I started working tomato picking in an absurdly hot greenhouse. Me and half the guys in there used to work shirtless because of the heat and I got so used to the feeling on a spider running down my spine that I knew just the right moment to catch them in my hand and throw them away.
The Wizards were Maiar (spirits) in the shape of men, and couldn't shape-shift once they took that form. I think she was just an evil spirit in the shape of a spider, just like Ungoliant.
True but Sauron was a Maiar too and he could shape-shift into Wolves, Vampires and Annatar the Lord of gifts. So it not entirely implausible. Plus Ungoliant was powerful enough to face off with Melkor so Shelob is not just any old spider.
@@robkemp598, I'm trying to remember (it's been a while since I delved head-first into the deeper lore), but weren't the wizards a step down from Sauron on the Maiar hierarchy of power? I know Melkor / Morgoth was much stronger, as he was a Valar; and as you noted, Ungoliant was more than a match for him, once she absorbed enough power.
@@legionarybooks13: I kind of remember that it was implied that Radagast could shape shift (I could be wrong about that).Sauron was one the most powerful of the maiar, but the five wizards sent to middle earth were deliberately weakened so as to be councilors & helpers of the elves & men & not their leaders. When Gandalf was resurrected, his maiar powers were freed up & probably were almost as great as they were before he left Aman.
@@raydavison4288 close, Gandalf was considered the strongest of the Maiar, I think, but he refused the leadership of wizards and was further reduced (relatively, by percentages, not in absolutes) in power than the others before leaving for middle-earth.
I suspect that when Tolkien said she was an evil thing in spider form, he did not mean she was a shapeshifter who happened to be in spider form; rather, he meant that she was a monster who resembled a spider but was not simply a giant spider. She was formed like a spider but was essentially different; “spider” is the closest approximation to what we can understand her as
The description of “in spider form,” I believe, is a way Tolkien describes otherwise supernatural and immortal beings that have populated middle earth in a physical form. Similar to how the Istari “took the form” of old Men.
Can we just appreciate how powerful Ungolant is, she almost single handedly killed Melkor/Morgoth on her own. Bare in mind he's the most powerful Vallah. That does technically make him the second most powerful being in Tolkien's universe behind Iluvitar. Morgoth is lucky his Balrogs heard his screams.
No, Tulkas also defeated Melkor and at other times sent him running with just his laugh. Also, an elf managed to wound him permanently. If everybody had just listened to Tulkas, smh
My thinking is that the destruction of the ring of power triggered an eruption of Mount Doom, the collapse of Barad Dur and the ground opening up swallowing Sauron’s army at the black gate. That’s a lot of magically-caused seismic activity in the region. Shelob’s lair could have collapsed trapping her inside where, if she wasn’t crushed, she would have to slowly dig herself out if possible. Devouring herself in the process wouldn’t be out of the question.
Nahhhp her lair is just above Minas morgul which is not in Mordor it is in mordors reach obviusly that’s why it’s morgul not ithel but it’s still in Gondor, and the seismic blast you’re on about stopped at the black gate, if you knew this lil tit bit you probably would see how silly your theory seems. I get why you thought of it but go and watch the return of the king again and you can clearly see that the cracking stops before it gets to the men soooooooo yeahhhh…. Unless of course the seismic blast stopped and then carried on a few miles after stopping just in order to reach Shelton’s lair also it can’t destroy all the land getting they’re as that’s ALOT of land to cover I guess they could say that as there’s no more books and we don’t know what happens after but I’m pretty sure Tolkien would’ve mentioned the fact that the blast reached all the way into Gondor’s land killing Aragorn and the whole party but what do I know about common sense Ey?
@@ashleytaylor7621 The crack stopped but shaking would be felt be felt for a long way. The quake that opened up a crack that size would be a magnitude 8+. The shaking would have been felt for a couple hundred miles easily collapsing any large rooms in Shelob’s lair. Splat! Big dead spider. OTOH, Shelob surviving and having some involvement in The New Shadow wouldn’t be entirely out of the question.
She's either: 1) A Maia like being that served Ungoliant 2) An actual progeny of Ungoliant, 50% Vala/Maia or 100% mystical spider, depending on which version of Tolkien you prefer
The line reads "last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world", so she's literal offspring of the first great spider. Ungoliant herself "Took the form of a spider", so Ungoliant decided what shape she wanted to be, but once in that form, her offspring all looked like spiders
I personally see the shapeshifter idea as one of the few potentially true liberties that Shadow of War took, so I actually quite like it. The phrase ‘in spider form’ always had a sense of ambiguity in my opinion, and being a descendant of Ungoliant made me think that she had more power than we saw in the short encounter from the Two Towers.
I agree and like you I actually quite liked that storyline idea. In a way it was through treachery that she became Shelob. The one thing not so sure on is if she can change back to "human" form. I suspect not it is a change shape once but cannot reverse. My thoughts on saying that is. If she could shapeshift at will. Why then once Sauron was defeated and she true had been seriously wounded by Sam. Did she not just change into human form and get found and healed. I suspect she didnt because she couldnt. I do not believe fundamentally she was evil to start with. The events and treachery and hurt which happened to her turned her that way. But, it was not how she started. I also agree with you in that we did not see her true power abilities. To live so long over 6000 odd years. There had to be more than just looks. But then maybe she can change at will and down in her dungeon she had a mansion and lived a good life.... I guess in that we will never know.
I don't think she was a shape-shifter. I she was, she would certainly use this to her advantage. There would be tales among orcs and men about strange woman/elf/female orc dwelling near Shelobs lair and potentially luring things inside. Some kind of a wicked, ugly siren. But we get nothing like that, just tales about a spider. So, as far as I would appreciate such idea, I think it is not true. If this was true however, I think it would be a great paralell to other creatures in middle earth. She would be a mockery of other shape-shifters like Beorn in similar way in which trolls are a mockery of ents and The Hobbit movies were a mocke... nevermind.
I always had a theory, that just like Sauron, she was able to shapeshift, him as a werewolf, a fair being etc, her as a spider. Then at some point she may have lost that skill (much like Sauron when he could no longer appear in a fair form). Perhaps after the war of Wrath she was affected/hurt in a similar way as Sauron, forever damned to be a spider, and only that.
I think she was... to a degree, in that she could change into that form. But once in it might not be able to change back. My reasoning for this is ... once Sauron was defeated, Why didnt she just change into human form get found and get healed. There was no need for her to stay there... I think though she had been in Shelob form so long she no longer could or wanted to change back. If the game is to be believed ( and yes I do like their storyline for Shelob) In her human form she suffered lots of hurt and betrayal.. Because of that would she want to change back?. I believe she had a lot more power and abilities which we didnt see. Afterall you do not live for 6000 odd years on looks alone. Her story is a mystery and one would love to know fully, but it can only be guesswork.
@@nzcyclone change is hard. the more time you are a thing the harder it is to become something else. An old concept of magic. For another example in fantasy the a wizard of Earthsea.
It’s possible she could shape shift but never saw the need to do so. Considering she had an unspoken agreement with Sauron, she would have little to no need to shape shift to go find prey/move from one home to the next. Which may be why the stories are only about a great spider, during the time of Sauron she had no need to hide what she was. Perhaps after Saurons death, if she survived, then she would need to shape shift one more.
I was always led to assume that, with Sauron and his orcs scourged from mordor (or, in the case of the orcs, driven deeper within mordor or fled to other lands), Shelob would have left the mountains to feed and was eventually killed by elves or men, and thus laid to rest.
I don't see any evidence that Shelob was a shape-shifter. That she was "in the form of a giant spider" sounds to me like she was a creature that somewhat resembled a giant spider, perhaps as a spider crab superficially resembles a spider, but was not an actual species of spider. In support of this, I believe that Shelob's mother, Ungoliant, was alive before anyone created other creatures including spiders.
Instead of being a shapeshifter, what if she could create a humanoid form and use it to lure prey like an angler fish. It could be a puppet form she controlled using strings of her web.
Gluttonous ancient creatures always seemed to be referred to as were-creatures such as the were-worms which were compared to wingless dragons that possessed the ability to shape shift. So yeah I'd imagine Shelob would be able to shapeshift as well imo.
I always liked the shapeshifter angle or thought of it more as her casting an illusion to appear human. Her mother was wasn't really a spider, but something pretending to be a spider, so it kinda makes sense.
I don't know if she was a shapeshifter, but perhaps she had some manner of ability to display herself in more fair forms? Like, some kind of illusion or whatever. She was left very mysterious, so who knows what kind of things she can do?
I like to think after her encounter with Sam, she's had crawled off to one of the darkest tunnels in her cave system Web, and died. Since she's never seen again the only real possibility is that she either died from her wounds (shock could factor into that), or was merely presumed dead when in actuality she lived but with Sauron gone, there was nobody to observe her.
1:47 - Whoa. I've never seen Shelob depicted like that. But that depiction of Shelob is genuinely scary. Spiders are already scary, but adding more monstrous and vaguely anthropomorph traits to her, while still emphasising how creepy, alien and hideous she is, only adds to how unsettling this depiction of Shelob really is.
I always thought Shelob was originally a maiar spirit of the first age devoted to Melkor but once the Valar took down Melkor in the war of wrath was trapped in her spider form and forced to live out her days
In shadow of war Shelod's ability to shift into a human female form made sense to me as she was a child of ungoliant making her roughly on par with a Maiar (who can also shape-shift to varying degrees). As for her fate I kind of assumed that without Sauron sending her prisoners and no orcs or men anywhere near she had nothing to consume and died
Another youtuber (Deep geek? maybe) put forth a theory that I am really liking. That she is the manifestation of the song of discord, and Tom Bombidil is the manifestation of the song of the Ainur. I like how it gives a solid reason why both of those two are so powerful but so unwilling to get more directly involved preferring to simply do what they do.
Not a shapeshifter. This essence took on a specific form like the balrogs and dragons and Tommy B. I like the idea of her eating herself; starving, blind and gluttonous perhaps unable to resist devouring a limb. As her hunger recycled she ate another. Finally, down to her last appendage and unable to move, the intrepid malice that had driven her existence flutters out to simple greed and spite: an all consuming affliction when left to fester.
What-if video idea for you to do: What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
I was thinking this after his other what-if Gandalf video: "What if Gandalf the WHITE got the ring?", granted it would have been almost impossible by the point he reincarnated as the ring was so far away, but in terms of the decisions the character would make, and the fact he was more powerful, would it be any different to Gandalf the Grey?
I believe she was just a giant spider, not everything "in form of" necessary means that is a shapeshifter (like the Balrogs). If not, why she seems so bestially irrational, or why didn't she abandoned there with another form in order to keep eating men
She definitely had some form of higher intellegence, or else she would never have made a deal with Gollum when she initially trapped him between the Hobbit and FotR
IMHO, Shelob was a great demon in a spider-like form (though some of the details, such as her horns, are not found on actual spiders). That doesn't necessarily mean she was capable of shape-shifting, though. I have never formed a firm opinion on what ultimately happened to her after her battle with Sam, simply knowing that she was back in her lair, feeling sorry for herself, the last time the book mentions her, which is when Sam is wearing the Ring, finds that it has enhanced his hearing, and among the things he can hear is "the bubbling of Shelob in her misery". It's possible that during the Fourth Age, Aragorn may have deployed--or even led--an army up to Cirith Ungol to deal with Shelob and open the pass, as Frodo and Sam would almost certainly have told him about her presence. Such a venture would have been perilous, but well within the military strength of Gondor, especially if Shelob was still ailing from her injuries.
I think in Tolkien's world evil takes many forms and the evil of Shelob took the form of a spider long ago and was fixed, or perhaps mostly fixed, in that form. Perhaps a great power or over a long period of years her appearance could change or if her body were destroyed her evil spirt could take another form
Spider form only. I believe that Shelob was forced to become both more bold and more crafty. I believe that after Elessar decreed that Minas Morgul be torn down, Shelob was forced to hunt again. So she would become a terror to the crews that labored to tear down Minas Morgul and then, later, Ithilien. Eventually though, I imagine that she was driven from her haunts and took up residence further to the South and East and troubled the people of Harad and Khand. She may have even ventured into South Gondor from time to time. As the 4th Age progressed, I think she may have faded utterly, returning to her spirit form.
I think she survived but had also a miserable fate since she became as many other creatures of old the last of her kind, in a world which had changed beyond recognition. She may have lived on for many years after the war of the rings, but I think when the humans grow stronger and stronger and greater in numbers, she finally had to flee or to hide herself deeper and deeper like the surviving orcs. The time for beings like Shelob was coming to an end.
I like to think Shelob was a maligned spirit like her mother, no true form but what she wanted, her spider form most resembling her eldritch and wicked soul in physical reality, but she is still able to change it and shift between forms to lure prey into her den to devour. But rare is it for her to need to do such, only in times of dire need or subtly being much more required for her to hunt prey does she do it.
Well, we know that Sauron could shape shift, that's fact. And Shelob is more ancient than the Dark Lord, so, I don't think it's that much of a stretch to think she could change her form.
It seems to me that Torech Ungol must have been vast, or at least have secret ways. Surely men would have gone there when they went to Cirith Ungol, to either 're claim it, or pull it down. Being wounded, though still probably a huge threat to men, if she had not had a really secretive or deep place to hide, men would surely have found and finished her off?
I believe that Ungolianth and Shelob as an extension are an embodiment of entropy. In other words an extension of death, a concept that exists just so that all things will one day cease to exist. The desire of the empty void to return to nothing in spite of Eru's designs. Something like that would not be bound to one form, surely. So in my headcannon, both can take any form they wish, but an enormous spider is the most convenient for achieving the ultimate goal.
HAPPY LATE THANKS GIVING! andddd i personally dont think she was a shape shifter i mean i dont think ungoliant was so i dont really think shelob was one either yk? thats just my personal view though once again great video!
It made for a great character in shadow of war and would make a good story as to why Gollum knew it was female and why he seemed to know her quite well. A spider would have just eaten him even though he was quite skinny since she obviously wasn’t picky about her prey. I still look at the game as an independent story and it never bothered me that it strayed from some of the lore but the Shelob character felt like it fit well enough to believe that it could be canon.
At the end of the day, I think she was just a giant spider; an evil and clever monster only one step separated from her mother, but still just what we saw, or read. However, it doesn't bother me to imagine that the video game might have been right, and I think it would be cool if she could spin other disguises for herself, and do more than just mindlessly eat.
Yeah alway's pictured shelob as more of a aku from samurai Jack type creature that takes the form of a spider (as that's the only shape she truly feels like she can interact with the world freely with that doesn't feel wrong on some level) and went mountain peak jumping as the mountains joined (if I remember correctly) the iron hills.
I think like the Maiar, Shelob and Ungoliant chose the form of a monstrous spider for one reason or another. And I give major props to Tolkien for creating some of the creepiest things in his work with these two. When even Morgoth, one of the Valar themselves, was afraid for his life. That says something.
In the form of a giant spider sounds to me as though she isn't truly a spider, but her form was close enough that one could call her by that species so that others would understand what they were talking about. 'Spider' being used in this context as more of a 'she's a big arachnid looking demon', simply for lack of a more accurate description rather than as an indicator that she can shift forms.
Spiritual beings in Arda seem to take on forms most befitting of their nature of character; Sauron alternating between a being of terror and malice and a fair and noble form, signifying his evil but also his manipulative nature. The balrogs took forms of wrathful beings of flame and ash, as their nature was rage and devestation. The Istari took forms of old men as their wisdom was the essence of their role. The list goes on, but it seems plausible Shelob's form was molded by her nature, a gluttonous and malicious spirit that poisoned the world around her with her presence, same going for her mother, Ungoliant, who was known to be able to communicate with Morgoth. I think she's still alive in the depths of the mountains, or maybe she has moved for better feed in some more forgotten corner of the world. It usually takes more to kill a spirit.
I really want a detailed account of the War of Wrath. A battle of the seas, the sky and the earth just as the 3 silmarils resting places would be. Ulmo and his water maiar facing off against legions of nameless things, clearing the way for the Teleri ships. Eonwe leading a host of maiar alongside the great forces of the free peoples against several millions of orcs and evil creatures with Sauron commanding from the back. Orome hunting the greatest beasts of Morgoth as he did so long ago, keeping the most horrific abominations away from the front lines. Tulkas tearing down dark beasts and structures alike, even breaking open the doors of Angband itself with his bear hands. Earendil flying like a comet in the sky alongside a myriad of eagles facing off against the mighty Ancalagon and his broods. Culminating in a massive battle within Angband itself. With Morgoth demanding pardon with Eonwe and him hewing his feet out from under him after a short lived surprise attack with grond, and Tulkas chaining him once more. That is how I beleive the War of Wrath played out overall. I really hope we see something like this someday, maybe from the Amazon series. Who knows
I believe that ungoliant was created from the discord of Melkor, not by any purpose of melkor but because of the discord between his theme and eru’s. It says in the silmarillion that many dark things were created without the knowledge of any of the Ainur, so ungoliant is probably one of those. Maybe Tom bombadil was a non dark creature that also came from the discord, something that reflected eru’s purpose more than melkor’s.
She was a spirit in spiderform. Probably had the potential to shift forms, but likely that form completely reflected what she was and so unless she acted any differently, she would never change into anything else.
Many thanks for great video, In mine opinion she lay down and heal after fight with Sam then carry on hunting and living for another years to come,she was more like balrog(fire spirit shape in semi human form) evil spirit which picks spider form of manifestations but not a shape-shifting creature..
She had to have a way to communicate because gollum and her came to an agreement. At best I would thinknhe could project something less threatening than be able to take that form otherwise she would find a place with better access to food.
@@mateuszslawinski1990 Considering Shelob's mom did a number on Sauron's predecessor once apparently, Sauron knew Shelob being its kin was a powerful evil in its own right.
I don’t know if she was a shapeshifter. But I see the logic in their decision. If she is determined to trap things. And fear was not the best way to trap her prey. Then taking another approach could be something I see someone like this doing.
I think, if my memory serves me right, Faramir was given the task of cleansing all evil in Cirith Ungol. He might've lead expeditions in those areas where Shelob dwelt, where he and his troops used oil and fire to burn out the evil caverns of Ethel Duath.
"Evil thing in spider form" could also just be like an ancient creature/spirit that took a shape that suited it and simply forgot how to change back into its original or other forms. It's a long tradition of shape-shifting that loose themselves and become what they turned into.
It is highly possible. Her storyline in the game I really liked. As a human or at least in human form she suffered a lot of hurt and betrayal. Would she want to change back? I would have liked to see her power. I believe she had a lot more power and abilities which we never got to see. You do not live that long in that time and age without something....
You would think that once Aragorn had got to the business of ordering the kingdom that he would have slain her or at the least driven her out of an area so close to populated lands
Rather than a shape-shifter, a "Spirit of Evil" that self actualized as a spider? Balrogs were spirits (Maia) who took the forms they did, but there is no hint they could then change to anything else.
I reckon she may well have had the ability to shapeshift but perhaps preferred that of a spider, as a mortal body would no doubt be difficult for her to hunt in. Good for trickery but not for overpowering a foe
I see two possibilities. The first is that she is half Maier. Her mother was a full Maier, corrupted by Morgoth around or before the trees, and who decided to go independent. If that is the case, then sure, she could shapeshift. But it would get harder over time, the more bound to middle earth she became. The 2nd is that her mother was a void creature, a lightphage if you will. I think the first is more likely, but the evidence for either is thin
I believe that she had the capacity to shift her form slowly over time, but lacked the imagination and thd will to do so. She thought like a spider, acted like a spider, and ate like a spider, and thus became one. By the time Sam and Frodo encountered her, she was too set in her ways to be anything else.
Hi i believe that shelob is just a giant spider. My theory to this is from the quote "evil in spider form". If she could shape shift then her offspring would have this ability as well. Resulting in the hobbits or elves never making it out of Mirkwood.
I don't think she could shape shift like Sauron could. It sounds like she was born a spider like creature and stayed that way. There was never example of her not being a spider, she came from a spider like being, produced spiders from herself evidence shows to me that the "spider form" quote was just Tolkien's way of describing her appearance, but hinting that she was still a kind of evil spirit, just like the wizards were sprits in human forms.
Just because she has another nature veiled by her spider form does not mean she can manifest it. The same could be said of Draugluin or Carcharoth but they were unable to change their earthly shape. It seems to be the trend with evil things that they lose the ability to shift shape. Beyond this she is the daughter of Ungoliant and her father must have been a much more ordinary spider. Any way her spiritual nature while existant is watered down by being assimilated with the matter of Earth. Just like Luthien being daughter of a Maia but not one herself.
I like how the shadow of war game took what we know of the relationship between Shelob and Sauron and somehow made that into a failed romance story. The shape shifting ability is definitely a possibility, however I prefer Shelob and her mother as demon monster spiders.
I reckon you’ve hit it with her self devoural. I don’t believe she is a shapeshifter as Tolkien tends to drop hints in the tales. Maiar can shapeshift unless their powers are diminished. They don’t even need to physically manifest. Elwing did into a bird. Aiwendil is also strongly hinted as being a master of shape shifting ‘a master of shapes and changes of hue’. Sauron lost his ability to shapeshift as he had put so much power into the ring.
Minor point - Sauron lost his ability to shapeshift _into a pleasant form_ after the Akallabeth - which is 1700 years after he forged the One, and Tolkien may have meant the loss of this ability to be a sign of his ultimate corruption (remember that he says that Sauron at the end of the First Age _nearly_ repented). The one who lost his ability to shapeshift altogether was Melkor/Morgoth - who became so tied to his bodily form that he was said to be the only Vala who knew fear (and his body would keep wounds from his fight with Fingolfin and Thorondor until he was expelled into the Void at the end of the First Age).
@@dlevi67 diminished by his loss of power having poured it into his orcs, trolls etc. That’s my point. I stated a few examples. It wasn’t meant to be an exhaustive list!
Since Tolkien gave no explicit indication that she was anything other than a spider, the idea seems ludicrous to me. Context is essential for understanding, and the author did not offer such context. I would further point out that Tolkien did include shape-shifters in his works about Middle Earth, the most notable of which, of course, was Sauron himself, a werewolf in the Silmarillion.
Could the Dark Days mean the days after Ungoliant ate the light of the trees? That would make Shelob even older. Interesting you say that Ungoliant AND Tom Bombadil have no background. Also the good and evil side of the coin? Altough I always thought Tom Bombadil was truly neutral...
That’s wrong about being one of the only characters without an origin. Aside from ungoliant and bombadil, there is also his wife, goldberry, the watcher in the water, the nameless things, the fell beasts, and technically the barrow wights(we DO know how they got to the barrows, but not exactly what they are, or where they originally came from). I believe there are also 1 or 2 more characters im just forgetting at the moment, but there’s at LEAST 7 of them-those 5 more, and the 2 u mentioned.
I believe Shelob and Ungoliant are the same entity. The creature was a spirit that took the form of a spider and grew massive as it consumed things. Later when it was starving it naturally shrank in stature. So when it says Ungoliant devoured herself, that is in a way true. She sustained herself by slowing shrinking down to size and form where she fled and hid in the mountains of shadow. It is important to note that Ungoliant and Melkor did not part on good terms, and she would have no reason to believe that Sauron would view her any different. Thus, reduced in stature, she not be open in declaring herself. More to the point, we do not know that she named herself Shelob. She does not speak to us, although it is implied that she spoke to Smeagol. Thus I do believe Shelob is Ungoliant and yes she can shapeshift if she feels the desire, although such would hardly strike her important.
My guess is she survived her battle with Sam, but she never forgot and was never free of the pain from Sting, which would stay with her for the rest of her very long life.
Taking a base primordial fear as your shape seems to be right up the alley for most fey, and shapeshifters in general. Most things fear spiders. Most things fear winged demons. Most things fear nature.
Personally, when it comes to her depiction in Shadow of War, the ability to shape shift and take on a “fair form” as the devs themselves described. I guess that interpretation isn’t too out there. But it’s more so her character in the story that I find questionable. Firstly, it’s revealed through collectibles that she and Sauron actually had a sort of romantic relationship, if I’m reading that right, before he betrayed her. That in it if itself seems odd because even if Sauron was willing to engage in such things for his own ends, I very strongly doubt Shelob, based on what is said about her character, would be interested in such a thing. Second, her greater plan in the game is to split up the protagonist, Talion, and the spirit of Celebrimbor because she foresaw that leading to Middle-Earth’s end. Since her only desires are death to all and to feed endlessly, why would she care about who rules Middle-Earth? Third, even though the text would suggest she has no care for the rings, given her character is set up to have an agenda against Sauron, surely that would make things play out a little different when the Hobbits passed through her lair
Yeah that game is so far removed from the actual story. Like I enjoy it, love it even maybe one of my top five games of all time but as a piece of lord of the rings story it fails in many ways.
It is a tough question, Tolkien is both systematic in world building but was also one man that couldn't anticipate internet fandoms 60 years after his death. (Or could he???) Ungoliant was not Ainur, she was a creature from the void. But then again, Eru Illuvatar is supposed to be the source of the flame imperishable and life itself. So what is Ungoliant and by extension Shelob? Dragons were creations of Melkor, but then again, how did they have agency in his absence? Did Eru hallow them? At the end of the day, I don't think they are classifiable.
In late to the party but i Remember that Ungoliant when arrived in middle earth assumed the form of a spider. I think ita pretty dare ti Say that She and her Brook can shapeshift.
I always wondered how her and golem came to mutual terms or a bargain if she was always stuck as a spider. Maybe I wrong but I thought I heard ge used to lure people to her lair.
Golem likely being the somewhat quick witted and agile thing he was, was likely able to evade her. And yeah, would not doubt one of his malicious diversionary tactics being a unwitting orc (they be rather stupid like that).
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There's a line in the book that reads "most like a spider she was" - this along with the fact she had a stinger, makes me think she was merely a demon whose closest form was that of a spider rather than a shapeshifter.
exactly, the sting always bothered me until i read this
Yes, that line is indicative of what she was. But also, that a lot of beings/animals had yet to take their final form - so part of the creation myth/dreamtime of Middle Earth. Where did the evil creatures come from? For example - another equivalent set of species to Ungoliant and Shelob were the dragons - who appeared to diminish in power and strength until what, they became lizards and garden spiders? Smaug I think is an equivalent beastie to Shelob - great and mighty yes - but still, shadows compared to the power of their antecedents.
I agree. I always understood "in spider form" to be a form that greatly resembled a spider, but different. I never understood it as Ungoliant and Shelob being able to shapeshift.
Old literature often refer to stings as the wounds gained from venomous like bees, spiders and snakes. Bees could sting, and many falsely assumed that this was true of other creatures. Snakes in particular were thought to sting with their flickering tongues, perhaps because they were so fast. Spiders were probably assumed to sting the same way bees and wasps do because of their similar body types.
Basically, Tolkien made a mistake, but it can be forgiven since it's fantasy.
@@michaelmccarty1327 I doubt that Tolkien, perhaps one of greatest linguists of all time "made a mistake". It's not like the spider anatomy was somehow uncertain in the 1950's. He writes "spider like", not "a spider". So for the spider to have a stinger is perfectly fine in his World. I think we can assume that Shelob had a stinger, but where it was placed on her body is not known. I personally like that it's on her butt, because it just looks so scary that way.
I don't read it as her being able to shapeshift, just that she's an embodiment of evil, or born of some sort of dark energy. Also shoutout to the OG Sam Gamgee being the only confirmed being to ever wound her
I'm trying to remember for certain, but I seem to recall Tolkien saying that Sam was the true hero of LOTR. And of all the casting choices in the films, they nailed it with Sean Astin; even though he rather embarrassingly admitted he'd never read the books until he was cast in the role.
Imagine living for over 6000 years, feasting on men, elves and orcs, become known for being terrifying and not to be fucked with
And then you get got by a pissed off gardener
@@Werewolf.with.Internet.Access Only a gardener would have enough experience with spiders to not be afraid. Almost every spring I have to clear out a million spiders who've recently hatched in my flower beds.
the balrogs must have wounded her with their whips or she would have just devoured them and morgoth
@@calebcarroll7641 Lol, there's an element of truth to that. I used be afraid of spiders. Things would make me jump out of my skin. Then I started working tomato picking in an absurdly hot greenhouse. Me and half the guys in there used to work shirtless because of the heat and I got so used to the feeling on a spider running down my spine that I knew just the right moment to catch them in my hand and throw them away.
The Wizards were Maiar (spirits) in the shape of men, and couldn't shape-shift once they took that form. I think she was just an evil spirit in the shape of a spider, just like Ungoliant.
True but Sauron was a Maiar too and he could shape-shift into Wolves, Vampires and Annatar the Lord of gifts. So it not entirely implausible. Plus Ungoliant was powerful enough to face off with Melkor so Shelob is not just any old spider.
@@robkemp598, I'm trying to remember (it's been a while since I delved head-first into the deeper lore), but weren't the wizards a step down from Sauron on the Maiar hierarchy of power? I know Melkor / Morgoth was much stronger, as he was a Valar; and as you noted, Ungoliant was more than a match for him, once she absorbed enough power.
@@legionarybooks13: I kind of remember that it was implied that Radagast could shape shift (I could be wrong about that).Sauron was one the most powerful of the maiar, but the five wizards sent to middle earth were deliberately weakened so as to be councilors & helpers of the elves & men & not their leaders. When Gandalf was resurrected, his maiar powers were freed up & probably were almost as great as they were before he left Aman.
@@raydavison4288 close, Gandalf was considered the strongest of the Maiar, I think, but he refused the leadership of wizards and was further reduced (relatively, by percentages, not in absolutes) in power than the others before leaving for middle-earth.
Sauron wasn't most powerfull Maiar just the most powerfull that join Melkor and jack of all trades and that made him very dangerous.
Shelob is deliberately kept mysterious. Some evil has little explanation. It just is.
I suspect that when Tolkien said she was an evil thing in spider form, he did not mean she was a shapeshifter who happened to be in spider form; rather, he meant that she was a monster who resembled a spider but was not simply a giant spider. She was formed like a spider but was essentially different; “spider” is the closest approximation to what we can understand her as
The description of “in spider form,” I believe, is a way Tolkien describes otherwise supernatural and immortal beings that have populated middle earth in a physical form. Similar to how the Istari “took the form” of old Men.
Can we just appreciate how powerful Ungolant is, she almost single handedly killed Melkor/Morgoth on her own. Bare in mind he's the most powerful Vallah. That does technically make him the second most powerful being in Tolkien's universe behind Iluvitar. Morgoth is lucky his Balrogs heard his screams.
No, Tulkas also defeated Melkor and at other times sent him running with just his laugh. Also, an elf managed to wound him permanently. If everybody had just listened to Tulkas, smh
Also, Sam is the most powerful
@@shakon1618 Sam? No it's Melkor, I'm sure of it and in regards to Tulkas, I dont know why Tulkas was brought up. I'm only talking about Ungolant.
@@shakon1618 No, Bill the Pony is the most powerful.
Morgoth had already put most of his power into "marring Arda" by that time (see the concept of Morgoth's ring).
You know you are a bad ass when even Sauron's reaction is......NOPE.
Very much a parallel with Melkor's relationship with Ungoliant - an uneasy alliance of convenience and fear.
My thinking is that the destruction of the ring of power triggered an eruption of Mount Doom, the collapse of Barad Dur and the ground opening up swallowing Sauron’s army at the black gate. That’s a lot of magically-caused seismic activity in the region. Shelob’s lair could have collapsed trapping her inside where, if she wasn’t crushed, she would have to slowly dig herself out if possible. Devouring herself in the process wouldn’t be out of the question.
Nahhhp her lair is just above Minas morgul which is not in Mordor it is in mordors reach obviusly that’s why it’s morgul not ithel but it’s still in Gondor, and the seismic blast you’re on about stopped at the black gate, if you knew this lil tit bit you probably would see how silly your theory seems. I get why you thought of it but go and watch the return of the king again and you can clearly see that the cracking stops before it gets to the men soooooooo yeahhhh…. Unless of course the seismic blast stopped and then carried on a few miles after stopping just in order to reach Shelton’s lair also it can’t destroy all the land getting they’re as that’s ALOT of land to cover I guess they could say that as there’s no more books and we don’t know what happens after but I’m pretty sure Tolkien would’ve mentioned the fact that the blast reached all the way into Gondor’s land killing Aragorn and the whole party but what do I know about common sense Ey?
@@ashleytaylor7621
The crack stopped but shaking would be felt be felt for a long way. The quake that opened up a crack that size would be a magnitude 8+. The shaking would have been felt for a couple hundred miles easily collapsing any large rooms in Shelob’s lair. Splat! Big dead spider. OTOH, Shelob surviving and having some involvement in The New Shadow wouldn’t be entirely out of the question.
She's either:
1) A Maia like being that served Ungoliant
2) An actual progeny of Ungoliant, 50% Vala/Maia or 100% mystical spider, depending on which version of Tolkien you prefer
The line reads "last child of Ungoliant to trouble the unhappy world", so she's literal offspring of the first great spider. Ungoliant herself "Took the form of a spider", so Ungoliant decided what shape she wanted to be, but once in that form, her offspring all looked like spiders
I personally see the shapeshifter idea as one of the few potentially true liberties that Shadow of War took, so I actually quite like it. The phrase ‘in spider form’ always had a sense of ambiguity in my opinion, and being a descendant of Ungoliant made me think that she had more power than we saw in the short encounter from the Two Towers.
Bro. Shelobs is in my basement.
I agree and like you I actually quite liked that storyline idea. In a way it was through treachery that she became Shelob. The one thing not so sure on is if she can change back to "human" form. I suspect not it is a change shape once but cannot reverse. My thoughts on saying that is. If she could shapeshift at will. Why then once Sauron was defeated and she true had been seriously wounded by Sam. Did she not just change into human form and get found and healed. I suspect she didnt because she couldnt. I do not believe fundamentally she was evil to start with. The events and treachery and hurt which happened to her turned her that way. But, it was not how she started. I also agree with you in that we did not see her true power abilities. To live so long over 6000 odd years. There had to be more than just looks. But then maybe she can change at will and down in her dungeon she had a mansion and lived a good life.... I guess in that we will never know.
Nah it’s dumb, it was just an excuse to put a sexy female in the game
@@bruhdon4748 facts
Other than minas ithil being around long enough to last that much longer than it did in the lore? Lol
In the chapter SHELOB's Lair, I always become uneasy...but Sam always and forever my he r o.
Keep up the great work Mellon!
I don't think she was a shape-shifter. I she was, she would certainly use this to her advantage. There would be tales among orcs and men about strange woman/elf/female orc dwelling near Shelobs lair and potentially luring things inside. Some kind of a wicked, ugly siren. But we get nothing like that, just tales about a spider. So, as far as I would appreciate such idea, I think it is not true.
If this was true however, I think it would be a great paralell to other creatures in middle earth. She would be a mockery of other shape-shifters like Beorn in similar way in which trolls are a mockery of ents and The Hobbit movies were a mocke... nevermind.
Dead men tell no tales.
I always had a theory, that just like Sauron, she was able to shapeshift, him as a werewolf, a fair being etc, her as a spider.
Then at some point she may have lost that skill (much like Sauron when he could no longer appear in a fair form).
Perhaps after the war of Wrath she was affected/hurt in a similar way as Sauron, forever damned to be a spider, and only that.
I think she was... to a degree, in that she could change into that form. But once in it might not be able to change back. My reasoning for this is ... once Sauron was defeated, Why didnt she just change into human form get found and get healed. There was no need for her to stay there... I think though she had been in Shelob form so long she no longer could or wanted to change back. If the game is to be believed ( and yes I do like their storyline for Shelob) In her human form she suffered lots of hurt and betrayal.. Because of that would she want to change back?. I believe she had a lot more power and abilities which we didnt see. Afterall you do not live for 6000 odd years on looks alone. Her story is a mystery and one would love to know fully, but it can only be guesswork.
@@nzcyclone change is hard. the more time you are a thing the harder it is to become something else. An old concept of magic. For another example in fantasy the a wizard of Earthsea.
It’s possible she could shape shift but never saw the need to do so. Considering she had an unspoken agreement with Sauron, she would have little to no need to shape shift to go find prey/move from one home to the next. Which may be why the stories are only about a great spider, during the time of Sauron she had no need to hide what she was. Perhaps after Saurons death, if she survived, then she would need to shape shift one more.
I was always led to assume that, with Sauron and his orcs scourged from mordor (or, in the case of the orcs, driven deeper within mordor or fled to other lands), Shelob would have left the mountains to feed and was eventually killed by elves or men, and thus laid to rest.
"His cat he calls her, but his cat she was not" I mean from my experience you could say that about every cat
I don't see any evidence that Shelob was a shape-shifter. That she was "in the form of a giant spider" sounds to me like she was a creature that somewhat resembled a giant spider, perhaps as a spider crab superficially resembles a spider, but was not an actual species of spider. In support of this, I believe that Shelob's mother, Ungoliant, was alive before anyone created other creatures including spiders.
agreed
Shelob was likely to spiders as ents are to trees - form is very similar but they are not the same.
But crab spiders are, in fact, spiders and not crabs
Bravo well done! Very clear and concise
I love the picture at 1:50&2:54! She looks SO weird there! Definitely not as scary, but SO damn weird, I ALMOST wish she actually looked like that!
Instead of being a shapeshifter, what if she could create a humanoid form and use it to lure prey like an angler fish. It could be a puppet form she controlled using strings of her web.
That would make her 10x more terrifying. And explain how she fed on humans and elves.
I love this
Gluttonous ancient creatures always seemed to be referred to as were-creatures such as the were-worms which were compared to wingless dragons that possessed the ability to shape shift. So yeah I'd imagine Shelob would be able to shapeshift as well imo.
Hang on. How do giant burrowing worms shapeshift?
@@Diesalot-sc9qz i need an answer to this
I always liked the shapeshifter angle or thought of it more as her casting an illusion to appear human. Her mother was wasn't really a spider, but something pretending to be a spider, so it kinda makes sense.
I don't know if she was a shapeshifter, but perhaps she had some manner of ability to display herself in more fair forms? Like, some kind of illusion or whatever. She was left very mysterious, so who knows what kind of things she can do?
I like to think after her encounter with Sam, she's had crawled off to one of the darkest tunnels in her cave system Web, and died. Since she's never seen again the only real possibility is that she either died from her wounds (shock could factor into that), or was merely presumed dead when in actuality she lived but with Sauron gone, there was nobody to observe her.
1:47 - Whoa. I've never seen Shelob depicted like that. But that depiction of Shelob is genuinely scary. Spiders are already scary, but adding more monstrous and vaguely anthropomorph traits to her, while still emphasising how creepy, alien and hideous she is, only adds to how unsettling this depiction of Shelob really is.
I always thought Shelob was originally a maiar spirit of the first age devoted to Melkor but once the Valar took down Melkor in the war of wrath was trapped in her spider form and forced to live out her days
In shadow of war Shelod's ability to shift into a human female form made sense to me as she was a child of ungoliant making her roughly on par with a Maiar (who can also shape-shift to varying degrees). As for her fate I kind of assumed that without Sauron sending her prisoners and no orcs or men anywhere near she had nothing to consume and died
Another youtuber (Deep geek? maybe) put forth a theory that I am really liking. That she is the manifestation of the song of discord, and Tom Bombidil is the manifestation of the song of the Ainur. I like how it gives a solid reason why both of those two are so powerful but so unwilling to get more directly involved preferring to simply do what they do.
I'm just glad I didn't watch this before going to bed. Good video. I like the narrative and the pictures are factual nightmare fuel.
Lol I'm watching before bed
@@Sinster71 🤣🤣
As an owner of tarantulas I always imagined she molted after encountering Sam
Not a shapeshifter. This essence took on a specific form like the balrogs and dragons and Tommy B. I like the idea of her eating herself; starving, blind and gluttonous perhaps unable to resist devouring a limb. As her hunger recycled she ate another. Finally, down to her last appendage and unable to move, the intrepid malice that had driven her existence flutters out to simple greed and spite: an all consuming affliction when left to fester.
A Shelob shapeshifting into a woman could explain those many travellers lost to the wilderness...
Since there is absolutely no indication of her being able to shapeshift that I am aware of, I find no reason to assume that she was.
What-if video idea for you to do:
What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
I was thinking this after his other what-if Gandalf video: "What if Gandalf the WHITE got the ring?", granted it would have been almost impossible by the point he reincarnated as the ring was so far away, but in terms of the decisions the character would make, and the fact he was more powerful, would it be any different to Gandalf the Grey?
I believe she was just a giant spider, not everything "in form of" necessary means that is a shapeshifter (like the Balrogs).
If not, why she seems so bestially irrational, or why didn't she abandoned there with another form in order to keep eating men
She definitely had some form of higher intellegence, or else she would never have made a deal with Gollum when she initially trapped him between the Hobbit and FotR
@@KingOfSciliy I can agree with that
IMHO, Shelob was a great demon in a spider-like form (though some of the details, such as her horns, are not found on actual spiders). That doesn't necessarily mean she was capable of shape-shifting, though. I have never formed a firm opinion on what ultimately happened to her after her battle with Sam, simply knowing that she was back in her lair, feeling sorry for herself, the last time the book mentions her, which is when Sam is wearing the Ring, finds that it has enhanced his hearing, and among the things he can hear is "the bubbling of Shelob in her misery". It's possible that during the Fourth Age, Aragorn may have deployed--or even led--an army up to Cirith Ungol to deal with Shelob and open the pass, as Frodo and Sam would almost certainly have told him about her presence. Such a venture would have been perilous, but well within the military strength of Gondor, especially if Shelob was still ailing from her injuries.
I think in Tolkien's world evil takes many forms and the evil of Shelob took the form of a spider long ago and was fixed, or perhaps mostly fixed, in that form. Perhaps a great power or over a long period of years her appearance could change or if her body were destroyed her evil spirt could take another form
Spider form only.
I believe that Shelob was forced to become both more bold and more crafty. I believe that after Elessar decreed that Minas Morgul be torn down, Shelob was forced to hunt again. So she would become a terror to the crews that labored to tear down Minas Morgul and then, later, Ithilien. Eventually though, I imagine that she was driven from her haunts and took up residence further to the South and East and troubled the people of Harad and Khand. She may have even ventured into South Gondor from time to time. As the 4th Age progressed, I think she may have faded utterly, returning to her spirit form.
I think she survived but had also a miserable fate since she became as many other creatures of old the last of her kind, in a world which had changed beyond recognition. She may have lived on for many years after the war of the rings, but I think when the humans grow stronger and stronger and greater in numbers, she finally had to flee or to hide herself deeper and deeper like the surviving orcs. The time for beings like Shelob was coming to an end.
That whole paragraph about "death or all others" kinda makes me think she was an aspect of entropy.
I like to think Shelob was a maligned spirit like her mother, no true form but what she wanted, her spider form most resembling her eldritch and wicked soul in physical reality, but she is still able to change it and shift between forms to lure prey into her den to devour. But rare is it for her to need to do such, only in times of dire need or subtly being much more required for her to hunt prey does she do it.
What happened to Shelob? Samwise Gamgee.
Well, we know that Sauron could shape shift, that's fact. And Shelob is more ancient than the Dark Lord, so, I don't think it's that much of a stretch to think she could change her form.
It seems to me that Torech Ungol must have been vast, or at least have secret ways. Surely men would have gone there when they went to Cirith Ungol, to either 're claim it, or pull it down. Being wounded, though still probably a huge threat to men, if she had not had a really secretive or deep place to hide, men would surely have found and finished her off?
3:36 "looks like a spider, therefore can shape-shift" is a wholly unjustified, and absurd assumption.
I believe that Ungolianth and Shelob as an extension are an embodiment of entropy. In other words an extension of death, a concept that exists just so that all things will one day cease to exist. The desire of the empty void to return to nothing in spite of Eru's designs. Something like that would not be bound to one form, surely. So in my headcannon, both can take any form they wish, but an enormous spider is the most convenient for achieving the ultimate goal.
Happy Thanksgiving!
God Bless.
@@benx6549 God bless you too!
HAPPY LATE THANKS GIVING! andddd i personally dont think she was a shape shifter i mean i dont think ungoliant was so i dont really think shelob was one either yk? thats just my personal view though once again great video!
It made for a great character in shadow of war and would make a good story as to why Gollum knew it was female and why he seemed to know her quite well. A spider would have just eaten him even though he was quite skinny since she obviously wasn’t picky about her prey. I still look at the game as an independent story and it never bothered me that it strayed from some of the lore but the Shelob character felt like it fit well enough to believe that it could be canon.
At the end of the day, I think she was just a giant spider; an evil and clever monster only one step separated from her mother, but still just what we saw, or read. However, it doesn't bother me to imagine that the video game might have been right, and I think it would be cool if she could spin other disguises for herself, and do more than just mindlessly eat.
Ungoliant was one of the Ainur like Sauron, and could take any shape. So its logical this could also be true for Shelob, who is not just a big animal.
Yeah alway's pictured shelob as more of a aku from samurai Jack type creature that takes the form of a spider (as that's the only shape she truly feels like she can interact with the world freely with that doesn't feel wrong on some level) and went mountain peak jumping as the mountains joined (if I remember correctly) the iron hills.
I think like the Maiar, Shelob and Ungoliant chose the form of a monstrous spider for one reason or another.
And I give major props to Tolkien for creating some of the creepiest things in his work with these two. When even Morgoth, one of the Valar themselves, was afraid for his life. That says something.
In the form of a giant spider sounds to me as though she isn't truly a spider, but her form was close enough that one could call her by that species so that others would understand what they were talking about. 'Spider' being used in this context as more of a 'she's a big arachnid looking demon', simply for lack of a more accurate description rather than as an indicator that she can shift forms.
Spiritual beings in Arda seem to take on forms most befitting of their nature of character;
Sauron alternating between a being of terror and malice and a fair and noble form, signifying his evil but also his manipulative nature.
The balrogs took forms of wrathful beings of flame and ash, as their nature was rage and devestation.
The Istari took forms of old men as their wisdom was the essence of their role.
The list goes on, but it seems plausible Shelob's form was molded by her nature, a gluttonous and malicious spirit that poisoned the world around her with her presence, same going for her mother, Ungoliant, who was known to be able to communicate with Morgoth.
I think she's still alive in the depths of the mountains, or maybe she has moved for better feed in some more forgotten corner of the world. It usually takes more to kill a spirit.
I really want a detailed account of the War of Wrath. A battle of the seas, the sky and the earth just as the 3 silmarils resting places would be.
Ulmo and his water maiar facing off against legions of nameless things, clearing the way for the Teleri ships.
Eonwe leading a host of maiar alongside the great forces of the free peoples against several millions of orcs and evil creatures with Sauron commanding from the back.
Orome hunting the greatest beasts of Morgoth as he did so long ago, keeping the most horrific abominations away from the front lines.
Tulkas tearing down dark beasts and structures alike, even breaking open the doors of Angband itself with his bear hands.
Earendil flying like a comet in the sky alongside a myriad of eagles facing off against the mighty Ancalagon and his broods.
Culminating in a massive battle within Angband itself. With Morgoth demanding pardon with Eonwe and him hewing his feet out from under him after a short lived surprise attack with grond, and Tulkas chaining him once more.
That is how I beleive the War of Wrath played out overall. I really hope we see something like this someday, maybe from the Amazon series. Who knows
Aulë the Smith would be the one to beat Morgoth's crown into the collar he was chained with.
I believe that ungoliant was created from the discord of Melkor, not by any purpose of melkor but because of the discord between his theme and eru’s. It says in the silmarillion that many dark things were created without the knowledge of any of the Ainur, so ungoliant is probably one of those. Maybe Tom bombadil was a non dark creature that also came from the discord, something that reflected eru’s purpose more than melkor’s.
She was a spirit in spiderform. Probably had the potential to shift forms, but likely that form completely reflected what she was and so unless she acted any differently, she would never change into anything else.
I think Shelob was just a spider. I believe using “an evil thing in spider-form” was just a storytelling descriptor used by Tolkien nothing more.
Many thanks for great video, In mine opinion she lay down and heal after fight with Sam then carry on hunting and living for another years to come,she was more like balrog(fire spirit shape in semi human form) evil spirit which picks spider form of manifestations but not a shape-shifting creature..
She had to have a way to communicate because gollum and her came to an agreement. At best I would thinknhe could project something less threatening than be able to take that form otherwise she would find a place with better access to food.
I think it’s more likely that ungoliant was a shape shifter before the ages and tale was sort of passed to to her offspring
"Evil in the form of a spider" is just a poetic way of saying she was an evil spider.
I assume she must have some kind magic if sauron is intimidated by her because being just a giant spider isn't that scary
Who knows, maybe Sauron has arahnophobia?
@@mateuszslawinski1990 Considering Shelob's mom did a number on Sauron's predecessor once apparently, Sauron knew Shelob being its kin was a powerful evil in its own right.
I don’t know if she was a shapeshifter. But I see the logic in their decision. If she is determined to trap things. And fear was not the best way to trap her prey. Then taking another approach could be something I see someone like this doing.
I think, if my memory serves me right, Faramir was given the task of cleansing all evil in Cirith Ungol. He might've lead expeditions in those areas where Shelob dwelt, where he and his troops used oil and fire to burn out the evil caverns of Ethel Duath.
Never actually knew this so never thought about it b4
She was a spirit in spider form and could not change it, much like the ents.
In a way she had to be a shape-shifter, but years alone in her spider form she went mad and was unable to change back.
I was hoping for more oohing and aahing over what Samwise the Brave (my favorite character) was able to do.
I think she was a shapeshifter, whose main form was a spider, or at least the one she felt the most comfortable with.
"Evil thing in spider form" could also just be like an ancient creature/spirit that took a shape that suited it and simply forgot how to change back into its original or other forms.
It's a long tradition of shape-shifting that loose themselves and become what they turned into.
It is highly possible. Her storyline in the game I really liked. As a human or at least in human form she suffered a lot of hurt and betrayal. Would she want to change back? I would have liked to see her power. I believe she had a lot more power and abilities which we never got to see. You do not live that long in that time and age without something....
You would think that once Aragorn had got to the business of ordering the kingdom that he would have slain her or at the least driven her out of an area so close to populated lands
Rather than a shape-shifter, a "Spirit of Evil" that self actualized as a spider? Balrogs were spirits (Maia) who took the forms they did, but there is no hint they could then change to anything else.
I miss the echo effect you used before when you would read quotes from the books I can't say why but yes definitely lol
I reckon she may well have had the ability to shapeshift but perhaps preferred that of a spider, as a mortal body would no doubt be difficult for her to hunt in. Good for trickery but not for overpowering a foe
I see two possibilities. The first is that she is half Maier. Her mother was a full Maier, corrupted by Morgoth around or before the trees, and who decided to go independent. If that is the case, then sure, she could shapeshift. But it would get harder over time, the more bound to middle earth she became. The 2nd is that her mother was a void creature, a lightphage if you will. I think the first is more likely, but the evidence for either is thin
I think shelob now runs a taco stand in the shadow mountains.
I believe that she had the capacity to shift her form slowly over time, but lacked the imagination and thd will to do so. She thought like a spider, acted like a spider, and ate like a spider, and thus became one. By the time Sam and Frodo encountered her, she was too set in her ways to be anything else.
Hi i believe that shelob is just a giant spider. My theory to this is from the quote "evil in spider form". If she could shape shift then her offspring would have this ability as well. Resulting in the hobbits or elves never making it out of Mirkwood.
I don't think she could shape shift like Sauron could. It sounds like she was born a spider like creature and stayed that way. There was never example of her not being a spider, she came from a spider like being, produced spiders from herself evidence shows to me that the "spider form" quote was just Tolkien's way of describing her appearance, but hinting that she was still a kind of evil spirit, just like the wizards were sprits in human forms.
Just because she has another nature veiled by her spider form does not mean she can manifest it. The same could be said of Draugluin or Carcharoth but they were unable to change their earthly shape. It seems to be the trend with evil things that they lose the ability to shift shape. Beyond this she is the daughter of Ungoliant and her father must have been a much more ordinary spider. Any way her spiritual nature while existant is watered down by being assimilated with the matter of Earth. Just like Luthien being daughter of a Maia but not one herself.
I like how the shadow of war game took what we know of the relationship between Shelob and Sauron and somehow made that into a failed romance story. The shape shifting ability is definitely a possibility, however I prefer Shelob and her mother as demon monster spiders.
I reckon you’ve hit it with her self devoural. I don’t believe she is a shapeshifter as Tolkien tends to drop hints in the tales. Maiar can shapeshift unless their powers are diminished. They don’t even need to physically manifest. Elwing did into a bird. Aiwendil is also strongly hinted as being a master of shape shifting ‘a master of shapes and changes of hue’. Sauron lost his ability to shapeshift as he had put so much power into the ring.
Minor point - Sauron lost his ability to shapeshift _into a pleasant form_ after the Akallabeth - which is 1700 years after he forged the One, and Tolkien may have meant the loss of this ability to be a sign of his ultimate corruption (remember that he says that Sauron at the end of the First Age _nearly_ repented).
The one who lost his ability to shapeshift altogether was Melkor/Morgoth - who became so tied to his bodily form that he was said to be the only Vala who knew fear (and his body would keep wounds from his fight with Fingolfin and Thorondor until he was expelled into the Void at the end of the First Age).
@@dlevi67 diminished by his loss of power having poured it into his orcs, trolls etc. That’s my point. I stated a few examples. It wasn’t meant to be an exhaustive list!
Since Tolkien gave no explicit indication that she was anything other than a spider, the idea seems ludicrous to me. Context is essential for understanding, and the author did not offer such context.
I would further point out that Tolkien did include shape-shifters in his works about Middle Earth, the most notable of which, of course, was Sauron himself, a werewolf in the Silmarillion.
King Elessar sent in some elite troops with a giant RAID Bomb!
Could the Dark Days mean the days after Ungoliant ate the light of the trees? That would make Shelob even older.
Interesting you say that Ungoliant AND Tom Bombadil have no background. Also the good and evil side of the coin? Altough I always thought Tom Bombadil was truly neutral...
That’s wrong about being one of the only characters without an origin. Aside from ungoliant and bombadil, there is also his wife, goldberry, the watcher in the water, the nameless things, the fell beasts, and technically the barrow wights(we DO know how they got to the barrows, but not exactly what they are, or where they originally came from). I believe there are also 1 or 2 more characters im just forgetting at the moment, but there’s at LEAST 7 of them-those 5 more, and the 2 u mentioned.
I believe Shelob and Ungoliant are the same entity. The creature was a spirit that took the form of a spider and grew massive as it consumed things. Later when it was starving it naturally shrank in stature. So when it says Ungoliant devoured herself, that is in a way true. She sustained herself by slowing shrinking down to size and form where she fled and hid in the mountains of shadow. It is important to note that Ungoliant and Melkor did not part on good terms, and she would have no reason to believe that Sauron would view her any different. Thus, reduced in stature, she not be open in declaring herself. More to the point, we do not know that she named herself Shelob. She does not speak to us, although it is implied that she spoke to Smeagol. Thus I do believe Shelob is Ungoliant and yes she can shapeshift if she feels the desire, although such would hardly strike her important.
My guess is she survived her battle with Sam, but she never forgot and was never free of the pain from Sting, which would stay with her for the rest of her very long life.
Taking a base primordial fear as your shape seems to be right up the alley for most fey, and shapeshifters in general.
Most things fear spiders. Most things fear winged demons. Most things fear nature.
I personally think she is a shapeshifter. Spider form is very specific. If she was just a spider I feel it would maybe say it?
I’m sure I read somewhere that only her mother could shapeshift and that her daughters where lesser in all ways.
Yes.
i remember this channel having many more videos, where are them? something happened?
Personally, when it comes to her depiction in Shadow of War, the ability to shape shift and take on a “fair form” as the devs themselves described. I guess that interpretation isn’t too out there.
But it’s more so her character in the story that I find questionable. Firstly, it’s revealed through collectibles that she and Sauron actually had a sort of romantic relationship, if I’m reading that right, before he betrayed her. That in it if itself seems odd because even if Sauron was willing to engage in such things for his own ends, I very strongly doubt Shelob, based on what is said about her character, would be interested in such a thing.
Second, her greater plan in the game is to split up the protagonist, Talion, and the spirit of Celebrimbor because she foresaw that leading to Middle-Earth’s end. Since her only desires are death to all and to feed endlessly, why would she care about who rules Middle-Earth?
Third, even though the text would suggest she has no care for the rings, given her character is set up to have an agenda against Sauron, surely that would make things play out a little different when the Hobbits passed through her lair
Yeah that game is so far removed from the actual story. Like I enjoy it, love it even maybe one of my top five games of all time but as a piece of lord of the rings story it fails in many ways.
It is a tough question, Tolkien is both systematic in world building but was also one man that couldn't anticipate internet fandoms 60 years after his death. (Or could he???) Ungoliant was not Ainur, she was a creature from the void. But then again, Eru Illuvatar is supposed to be the source of the flame imperishable and life itself. So what is Ungoliant and by extension Shelob? Dragons were creations of Melkor, but then again, how did they have agency in his absence? Did Eru hallow them?
At the end of the day, I don't think they are classifiable.
ccol vid Jake ye she was a shapeshifter alright
In late to the party but i Remember that Ungoliant when arrived in middle earth assumed the form of a spider. I think ita pretty dare ti Say that She and her Brook can shapeshift.
I think she ran into my Death Knight in World of Warcraft and he sprayed her with Raid.
I always wondered how her and golem came to mutual terms or a bargain if she was always stuck as a spider. Maybe I wrong but I thought I heard ge used to lure people to her lair.
Golem likely being the somewhat quick witted and agile thing he was, was likely able to evade her. And yeah, would not doubt one of his malicious diversionary tactics being a unwitting orc (they be rather stupid like that).
Ungoliant went out like Pizza the Hutt. LOL