Francis bought Welby some cherries in brandy. Welby thanked him and said he didn't actually like cherries but he appreciated the spirit in which they were given.
A very good episode. As a retired lawyer, and government official, it is a great lesson for everyone. It is especially so for young lawyers, journalists and public information officials. Thanks!
Thanks for the show today. It was especially thought provoking and inspiring. Your topics and discussion is good for all Christians, not just Anglicans.
Rico Tice is now a member of a church near me here in the UK, IPCE - International Presbyterian Church Ealing. He preaches at the services there; I have been there when he has. It seems a case of sour grapes to me because he chose to leave the CoE. Rico did all he could to share his concerns about the John Smyth abuse imo. He wrote an article about why he left the CoE, which I’m sure you can find online. He and his family are very happy and settled at IPCE and contribute much to the life and witness of the church.
Your reasonings that you discussed at 30:30 were terrific and extremely good! The (at least) simple majority of human beings are wont to leap to unwarranted conclusions based on emotionally loaded, factually vague "reports." This is an even bigger shame when Christians do it, because a careful reading of the Bible would show us that we are to learn and exercise discernment.
@royquick-s5n I think I'm positing the opposite rationale. Exercising discernment means looking for the truth; then taking appropriate action, calmly and with humility, kindness, and the Lord's grace and power.
Thank you Kevin añd Father George...Insightful thoughts I needed to hear and digest. I. Like you, am thañkful and amaxed my greatest life gift, of The Church since befote I wss born and the clergy and layman of great Faith I have bave known and know now. I am grateful that you are both are in my life... TRUST is wonderful !
The fact that the UK watched the US testing out decriminalising shoplifting and how much of a disaster it is, then thought, "We'll do that too" makes me believe firmly that the goal is to use the criminal underworld to punish the local population for not supporting socialism. That is one of the tactics they have employed dozens of times over the last 140 years.
"Institutions of religion, learning and power are coming to terms with their insistence that intellect and character need not be based on a morality. Not only are the people affected by these institutions confronted with dishonesty, deception and normal human failing but those in positions of authority and responsibility in the institutions are recognizing that the very existence of the institutions themselves is threatened by the same failings". [D Willard]
A priest being kind to children is concerned about false accusations by TEC and yet the priest who decides he identifies as being a different gender than what his birth certificate identifies as is allowed to use whichever restroom he chooses?
Our Lord, in redeeming us, has brought us into community, i.e., the church. Satan, in deceiving us, drives us into a self-centered isolation, "You shall be as gods, knowing good from evil," which leads to the inevitability of death. In deploring sin within the church, let us pray for restoration of community that we all can worship God "in spirit and in Truth."
@royquick-s5n no you detect someone fed up to the back teeth of C of E Bishops and the system that protects them so they are not accountable. Yes, it was a generalisation, but I would have thought that was obvious by context. I have known some good Bishops but even they are unaccountable.
I really identify with your discussion about trust especially since the Covid mandates of vaccines and masks. The denial of ivermectin to save lives was the final straw for my wife and i.
C of E clergy more often than not do not have a PTO for six months and only after having an up to date DBS and relevant Safeguarding Training. Does this apply to archdeacons, deans, bishops and archbishops? If not why not? What are yhe implications for an archbishop who resings over Safeguarding?
The Bishops, Archbishops, Cardinals, Popes and Welby of Canterbury have no creditability , no trust and no moral voice on the faithful. Happy Thanksgiving>
We must have Bishops, Arch Bishops, Priests that are Godly, devout, AND have creditable moral voices. WE are morally obligated to work and pray for that or there will no longer even be a church to leave!!
The traditional, and clearer grammatically form is to include the preposition "of" with each title. This is important for clarity regarding the Trinity (three persons, one being). But I appreciate and laud the spirit of your comment, and hope this reply comes across with the charity animating it.
@@royquick-s5n I think what he is getting at is that the pope is being ignored because he has no moral voice. As a Catholic, that is what I am seeing. The pope is really inconsequential compared to say, John Paul II.
@@myleshagar9722 To how many Roman Catholics has the pope become less influential? I conjecture that most follow the Pied Piper, equivalent to the general populace under a benevolent dictator. What you say is true in that the present pope has not been emphasizing traditional biblical morals. He seems to be trying to circumvent them. I would not equate the Trads, the Traditional Latin Mass people, with the general membership of the Roman Catholic Church. The Trads constitute a very small percentage of the membership and are reactionary to the new Masses in the language of the people, the reception of both bread and wine, standing while receiving, the priest facing the people, and less ritual. They play up Trent and Vatican I over Vatican II. Anglicans should be apprehensive about them alone over the very fact they advocate Mass in Latin, "in a tongue not understanded of the people," Article XXIV. They would be the first to insist that Anglican confirmations and ordinations are invalid. However, the Trads do uphold traditional biblical morals, e.g. on homosexual conduct.
53:31 “The one Church doesn’t even show that it believes in God. They are there in their little meetings discussing global issue like climate change and everything except how to proclaim the one Holy God. And it’s time that the Church reclaims that” Amen to that!
"They" are not going to have anyone to whom "to proclaim the one Holy God," if pollution gets out of hand. Just think back to the smog laden cities like Los Angeles back in 1960s, for example. Pollution may be real, not imaginary, not just a plank of a political party.
In preparing a PowerPoint presentation for a school assembly about how Jesus loved the children, I felt I couldn't use an image of Jesus with children sat on his knee.
That's sad. I think I would've used it. And maybe taught that God alone can be trusted like no one else. Edit to add, I don't know your circumstances or culture, so not commenting on your judgment.
@royquick-s5n feminine or effeminate depictions of Jesus or of angels are really doing a disservice to everyone. They're not based in the Holy Scriptures or in solid Christian Tradition.
That story about the priest who touched a girl's hair, in full view of many other people, and is in trouble for it, is the sort of story that wants me to step off the world and look for a saner planet.
Just to up the craziness of this incident for you -- Rod Dreher reported that the priest who is responsible for the flawed reaction by the diocese to the allegations by the girl's father, was shown in a photograph with his hands on the shoulders of a similarly aged girl, at the exhibit of the holy relics. Dreher showed the photo on his substack column with the story.
@@marmeemarch7080 What may not be known? Many years ago I had to fend off an Episcopal college chaplain who was reaching for my genitalia. I remember before the incident two fellow college students talking restrainedly about his hand gestures in a car. I was so naive at the time not to immediately discern to what they may have been alluding, especially for a priest. This was before all of the scandals discovered within the recent ten to twenty years. In summer church work, I ran across an Episcopal priest who slept in bed with a male staffer of the resorts in the Smokies. It was in the same general area I have mentioned in another blog that I visited a closed Episcopal church where the rector had been gay, i.e. the church with life-size painting of a very effeminate Jesus. By the way, after I reported the Episcopal chaplain in the first instance to the diocese in which it occurred, nothing happened to my knowledge. In later years a county prosecutor investigated, but the man had passed away. All the priests mentioned were single, not married, Episcopal clergy.
There seems to be an "echo chamber" situation here. Earlier I posted a link for an article in the Church Times and this has been removed. It was about UK retired senior police officers suggesting the Makin Review's conclusions was incorrect in saying that there had not been a formal referral to the police. I now wonder whether this post will be deleted.
@@royquick-s5n I wondered whether it was because I had posted a link to the Church Times article rather than quoting any of the texts. (One can sign up to access two CT articles a month for free.) I find the proposed pursuit of AB Welby even into Europe unedifying. (This is not quite as bad as one overseas cleric who seems to have a vendetta against a Free Church of England bishop following Brett Murphy's problems in Morecambe. After a while I stopped watching that man's videos as more views could encourage his.)
@@francespike9780 It might have been. I visit web sites and news sources which fall into a GAFCON and Glorbal perspective and suspect and avoid web sites and new sources which have been identified with the Episcopal Church U.S. and the Church of England, e.g. Church Times. 🙂
@@francespike9780 I posted a prior reply to your reply beginning "I wondered whether . . ." , and it has been deleted!!! I detect the mentality of the Inquisition or Puritans in colonial Massachusetts afloat. 🙂
@@royquick-s5n curiouser and curiouser At least I've flagged up one alternative opinion (of the retired senior police officers - I think there were four former officers in contact with the Church Times). Will not post again in this particular episode.
In the C of E now the ration of central staff to frontline clergy is a strategic nonsense: the truly sad thing is that in the upper echelons we have largely managers and hirelings rather than leaders and shepherds who care more about careers and their agendas than they do about their flocks.
Listening to your discussion is making me so sad. Maybe even in my great age I find listening to Priests discussing the common failures of Clergy is difficult to hear. Priests in my naive mind are or should be above the ordinary. They are called by God to Ministry yet their humanity makes the even more earthly than ordinary man. You may believe that what I describe is silly & I appreciate that but it’s just basic belief that Priests are called by zygodactyl yet they remain so earthly. I hope this makes sense. 19:56
You might have a look at the article in the Church Times that suggests that the basis of much criticism of ++Welby stemming from the Makin Report rests on a misapprehension.
My understanding is that the only person who can activate CDM against an Archbishop is the other Archbishop. If that is correct, then I consider activation unlikely.
@markcheckley3715 Mark, anyone with "proper interest" can bring a complaint against the ABofC. It is whether or not the elites will allow it to be fully heard and investigated.
A previous attempt at a CDM had been made by one of the Smyth victims. The case was never allowed to progress in a rightful manner. Surprise, surprise...
I am R/C. My P.P ( who clearly is very liberal) and I were discussing the recent issue in the Anglican Church. He gave me a very different angle to it. I'm giving it to you for your consideration: J.W. is a good man and has done a good job on the financial side. He instructed someone to report this case of abuse to the police but did not follow up on it. It seems this person did not do this. J W.'s stepping down was encouraged by the government as the Abortion Bill is at present being debated in Parliament and it would be to the government's advantage if there was no moral voice in The House of Lords. I guess it was assumed that J.W. would also leave the House of Lords. Your thoughts please.
"J.W. is a good man and has done a good job on the financial side. He instructed someone to report this case of abuse to the police but did not follow up on it. It seems this person did not do this." My understanding is that JW, when AB, was told that the matter had already been reported to the police. Though that was probably the case, the police had not dealt with it as a formal report to follow up.
replying to myself now: And not only had someone reported the situation to the police but there had also been at least one meeting with the police on the matter (though not with the AB of course).
@@georgeconger2850 Field hockey? Hockey! At least our guys don't dress with padded clothes that make them look like they are auditioning for a road tyre advert. Same with American football players whose protective clothing looks more like space garb unlike rugby players in the game that originated in UK and is played in many countries who are much tougher 😊😊
Is rounders more like our softball now? Girls here play both "underhand" and "fast-pitch" softball. Well, most girls who play sports play something else, I think, or else it's a regional difference.
Francis bought Welby some cherries in brandy. Welby thanked him and said he didn't actually like cherries but he appreciated the spirit in which they were given.
Groan...
He he I like jokes
😂😂😂
Both are best cherry pickers in the biz....good old pluck & duck strategy....
I'm glad to see this comment getting the approval it deserves!
I appreciate your humility. You guys are truly serving God. We need this. Thank you
A very good episode. As a retired lawyer, and government official, it is a great lesson for everyone. It is especially so for young lawyers, journalists and public information officials. Thanks!
Thank you. I appreciate your kin d words
Thanks for the show today. It was especially thought provoking and inspiring. Your topics and discussion is good for all Christians, not just Anglicans.
It's good to find some wisdom online. Thanks to you both.
Rico Tice is now a member of a church near me here in the UK, IPCE - International Presbyterian Church Ealing. He preaches at the services there; I have been there when he has.
It seems a case of sour grapes to me because he chose to leave the CoE. Rico did all he could to share his concerns about the John Smyth abuse imo.
He wrote an article about why he left the CoE, which I’m sure you can find online. He and his family are very happy and settled at IPCE and contribute much to the life and witness of the church.
Your reasonings that you discussed at 30:30 were terrific and extremely good! The (at least) simple majority of human beings are wont to leap to unwarranted conclusions based on emotionally loaded, factually vague "reports." This is an even bigger shame when Christians do it, because a careful reading of the Bible would show us that we are to learn and exercise discernment.
@royquick-s5n I think I'm positing the opposite rationale. Exercising discernment means looking for the truth; then taking appropriate action, calmly and with humility, kindness, and the Lord's grace and power.
(98 Fahrenheit here in Australia) Thankyou brothers. Loved what you said at the end George.
It's going to be 3 degrees Fahrenheit tomorrow night where I am. "Be thankful in all circumstances," I guess.
Greetings from New Zealand :)
Happy Thanksgiving Kevon, George and subscribers over the pond
Thank you, God bless you
Amen! “If I didn’t believe, I’d have been knocked over by life years ago.” I’m thankful for you both.
Bbbbbbbb
Thank you Kevin añd Father George...Insightful thoughts I needed to hear and digest. I. Like you, am thañkful and amaxed my greatest life gift, of The Church since befote I wss born and the clergy and layman of great Faith I have bave known and know now. I am grateful that you are both are in my life... TRUST is wonderful !
Hello from Alaska.
Many are cold but few are frozen.
Lucky you! You have a strong Orthodox Church there ☦☦☦
The fact that the UK watched the US testing out decriminalising shoplifting and how much of a disaster it is, then thought, "We'll do that too" makes me believe firmly that the goal is to use the criminal underworld to punish the local population for not supporting socialism. That is one of the tactics they have employed dozens of times over the last 140 years.
Nice lesson at the end chaps, thanks
I am greek orthodox and follow you with interest .
Me too ☦☦☦
Pope Francis has become Pope Cartman “Respect mah authoritaaah”
Our first South Park reference in 10 years! Well done.
"Institutions of religion, learning and power are coming to terms with their insistence that intellect and character need not be based on a morality. Not only are the people affected by these institutions confronted with dishonesty, deception and normal human failing but those in positions of authority and responsibility in the institutions are recognizing that the very existence of the institutions themselves is threatened by the same failings". [D Willard]
A priest being kind to children is concerned about false accusations by TEC and yet the priest who decides he identifies as being a different gender than what his birth certificate identifies as is allowed to use whichever restroom he chooses?
Our Lord, in redeeming us, has brought us into community, i.e., the church. Satan, in deceiving us, drives us into a self-centered isolation, "You shall be as gods, knowing good from evil," which leads to the inevitability of death. In deploring sin within the church, let us pray for restoration of community that we all can worship God "in spirit and in Truth."
Here we go again. Bishops hitting the clergy not the Bishops. The system is still protecting the corrupt, all powerful episcopacy.
@royquick-s5n no you detect someone fed up to the back teeth of C of E Bishops and the system that protects them so they are not accountable. Yes, it was a generalisation, but I would have thought that was obvious by context. I have known some good Bishops but even they are unaccountable.
@royquick-s5n cheers Roy.
I really identify with your discussion about trust especially since the Covid mandates of vaccines and masks. The denial of ivermectin to save lives was the final straw for my wife and i.
C of E clergy more often than not do not have a PTO for six months and only after having an up to date DBS and relevant Safeguarding Training. Does this apply to archdeacons, deans, bishops and archbishops? If not why not?
What are yhe implications for an archbishop who resings over Safeguarding?
The Bishops, Archbishops, Cardinals, Popes and Welby of Canterbury have no creditability , no trust and no moral voice on the faithful. Happy Thanksgiving>
We must have Bishops, Arch Bishops, Priests that are Godly, devout, AND have creditable moral voices. WE are morally obligated to work and pray for that or there will no longer even be a church to leave!!
I'm Orthodox so I'm delighted to say that doesn't apply to us ☦☦☦
In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit • AMEN
The traditional, and clearer grammatically form is to include the preposition "of" with each title. This is important for clarity regarding the Trinity (three persons, one being). But I appreciate and laud the spirit of your comment, and hope this reply comes across with the charity animating it.
As a Catholic I can say That Pope Francis has no moral voice. The Holy Spirit is still guiding the Church. I'm not leaving the Church.
@@royquick-s5n I think what he is getting at is that the pope is being ignored because he has no moral voice. As a Catholic, that is what I am seeing. The pope is really inconsequential compared to say, John Paul II.
@@myleshagar9722 To how many Roman Catholics has the pope become less influential? I conjecture that most follow the Pied Piper, equivalent to the general populace under a benevolent dictator. What you say is true in that the present pope has not been emphasizing traditional biblical morals. He seems to be trying to circumvent them. I would not equate the Trads, the Traditional Latin Mass people, with the general membership of the Roman Catholic Church. The Trads constitute a very small percentage of the membership and are reactionary to the new Masses in the language of the people, the reception of both bread and wine, standing while receiving, the priest facing the people, and less ritual. They play up Trent and Vatican I over Vatican II. Anglicans should be apprehensive about them alone over the very fact they advocate Mass in Latin, "in a tongue not understanded of the people," Article XXIV. They would be the first to insist that Anglican confirmations and ordinations are invalid. However, the Trads do uphold traditional biblical morals, e.g. on homosexual conduct.
I was Roman Catholic, now happily Orthodox - so I didn't leave the Church. ☦☦☦
53:31 “The one Church doesn’t even show that it believes in God. They are there in their little meetings discussing global issue like climate change and everything except how to proclaim the one Holy God. And it’s time that the Church reclaims that” Amen to that!
"They" are not going to have anyone to whom "to proclaim the one Holy God," if pollution gets out of hand. Just think back to the smog laden cities like Los Angeles back in 1960s, for example. Pollution may be real, not imaginary, not just a plank of a political party.
I'm Orthodox so I'm delighted to say that doesn't apply to us ☦☦☦
In preparing a PowerPoint presentation for a school assembly about how Jesus loved the children, I felt I couldn't use an image of Jesus with children sat on his knee.
That's sad. I think I would've used it. And maybe taught that God alone can be trusted like no one else.
Edit to add, I don't know your circumstances or culture, so not commenting on your judgment.
@royquick-s5n feminine or effeminate depictions of Jesus or of angels are really doing a disservice to everyone. They're not based in the Holy Scriptures or in solid Christian Tradition.
That story about the priest who touched a girl's hair, in full view of many other people, and is in trouble for it, is the sort of story that wants me to step off the world and look for a saner planet.
@@royquick-s5n Yes, I realise that it's not a simple matter.
Just to up the craziness of this incident for you -- Rod Dreher reported that the priest who is responsible for the flawed reaction by the diocese to the allegations by the girl's father, was shown in a photograph with his hands on the shoulders of a similarly aged girl, at the exhibit of the holy relics. Dreher showed the photo on his substack column with the story.
@@marmeemarch7080 What may not be known? Many years ago I had to fend off an Episcopal college chaplain who was reaching for my genitalia. I remember before the incident two fellow college students talking restrainedly about his hand gestures in a car. I was so naive at the time not to immediately discern to what they may have been alluding, especially for a priest. This was before all of the scandals discovered within the recent ten to twenty years. In summer church work, I ran across an Episcopal priest who slept in bed with a male staffer of the resorts in the Smokies. It was in the same general area I have mentioned in another blog that I visited a closed Episcopal church where the rector had been gay, i.e. the church with life-size painting of a very effeminate Jesus. By the way, after I reported the Episcopal chaplain in the first instance to the diocese in which it occurred, nothing happened to my knowledge. In later years a county prosecutor investigated, but the man had passed away. All the priests mentioned were single, not married, Episcopal clergy.
I'm eating a light lunch in front of an electric fan. It's not winter here!
@@royquick-s5n May winter arrive soon!
York should resign too if the CoE is to be taken seriously at all ref safeguarding
God should resign - he did nothing as usual.
@ we’re responsible for our own actions.
There seems to be an "echo chamber" situation here.
Earlier I posted a link for an article in the Church Times and this has been removed.
It was about UK retired senior police officers suggesting the Makin Review's conclusions was incorrect in saying that there had not been a formal referral to the police.
I now wonder whether this post will be deleted.
@@royquick-s5n I wondered whether it was because I had posted a link to the Church Times article rather than quoting any of the texts. (One can sign up to access two CT articles a month for free.)
I find the proposed pursuit of AB Welby even into Europe unedifying. (This is not quite as bad as one overseas cleric who seems to have a vendetta against a Free Church of England bishop following Brett Murphy's problems in Morecambe. After a while I stopped watching that man's videos as more views could encourage his.)
@@francespike9780 It might have been. I visit web sites and news sources which fall into a GAFCON and Glorbal perspective and suspect and avoid web sites and new sources which have been identified with the Episcopal Church U.S. and the Church of England, e.g. Church Times. 🙂
@@francespike9780 I posted a prior reply to your reply beginning "I wondered whether . . ." , and it has been deleted!!! I detect the mentality of the Inquisition or Puritans in colonial Massachusetts afloat. 🙂
@@royquick-s5n curiouser and curiouser
At least I've flagged up one alternative opinion (of the retired senior police officers - I think there were four former officers in contact with the Church Times).
Will not post again in this particular episode.
@francespike9780 I think YT automatically deletes comments with links in them?
And that's good to know about the Church Times, thanks!
Fr George sounds like Lorne Greene
I trust my priest enough to give confession.
“Comment for the algorithm”
In the C of E now the ration of central staff to frontline clergy is a strategic nonsense: the truly sad thing is that in the upper echelons we have largely managers and hirelings rather than leaders and shepherds who care more about careers and their agendas than they do about their flocks.
Welby & Francis: Two heretics
The priest whom was a bully will fit in well in Albany now the bullies run the diocese.
Cowardice, in the Church of England, is a bar to Heaven, Revelation 21 verse 8.
As you so beautifully said, I am I thankful for my faith.
Listening to your discussion is making me so sad. Maybe even in my great age I find listening to Priests discussing the common failures of Clergy is difficult to hear. Priests in my naive mind are or should be above the ordinary. They are called by God to Ministry yet their humanity makes the even more earthly than ordinary man. You may believe that what I describe is silly & I appreciate that but it’s just basic belief that Priests are called by zygodactyl yet they remain so earthly. I hope this makes sense. 19:56
You might have a look at the article in the Church Times that suggests that the basis of much criticism of ++Welby stemming from the Makin Report rests on a misapprehension.
it is a mare's nest; scapegoating; shooting fish in a barrel; conveniently getting rid of someone because they can.
The Mafia has sitdowns, in churches, you may leave.
Surely the Archbishop should face a CDM? Any other lowly cleric would.
My understanding is that the only person who can activate CDM against an Archbishop is the other Archbishop. If that is correct, then I consider activation unlikely.
@markcheckley3715 Mark, anyone with "proper interest" can bring a complaint against the ABofC. It is whether or not the elites will allow it to be fully heard and investigated.
A previous attempt at a CDM had been made by one of the Smyth victims. The case was never allowed to progress in a rightful manner. Surprise, surprise...
I am R/C. My P.P ( who clearly is very liberal) and I were discussing the recent issue in the Anglican Church. He gave me a very different angle to it. I'm giving it to you for your consideration:
J.W. is a good man and has done a good job on the financial side. He instructed someone to report this case of abuse to the police but did not follow up on it. It seems this person did not do this.
J W.'s stepping down was encouraged by the government as the Abortion Bill is at present being debated in Parliament and it would be to the government's advantage if there was no moral voice in The House of Lords. I guess it was assumed that J.W. would also leave the House of Lords.
Your thoughts please.
I should have said Euthanasia Bill was being debated in the UK Parliament in my message below. A mistake , sorry.
@@fleuromeara4924 I would say your friend is incredibly deluded.
"J.W. is a good man and has done a good job on the financial side. He instructed someone to report this case of abuse to the police but did not follow up on it. It seems this person did not do this."
My understanding is that JW, when AB, was told that the matter had already been reported to the police. Though that was probably the case, the police had not dealt with it as a formal report to follow up.
@@francespike9780 read the Makin report.
replying to myself now: And not only had someone reported the situation to the police but there had also been at least one meeting with the police on the matter (though not with the AB of course).
Baseball - manly game? In England it's called rounders and is played almost entirely by girls.😉
Perhaps that’s the problem with England; the girls play baseball and the boys play field hockey
@@georgeconger2850 Field hockey? Hockey! At least our guys don't dress with padded clothes that make them look like they are auditioning for a road tyre advert. Same with American football players whose protective clothing looks more like space garb unlike rugby players in the game that originated in UK and is played in many countries who are much tougher 😊😊
Is rounders more like our softball now? Girls here play both "underhand" and "fast-pitch" softball. Well, most girls who play sports play something else, I think, or else it's a regional difference.
It would be funny to see any English athlete compete at baseball with one of our minor league teams. Or most of our collegiate teams.
You might be more intentional about finding good stories to balance all the sad stuff happening in church leadership.
There are three spirits and they all pronounce: "Ribbet!"