A question about 'that' organ sound. How easy is it to replicate on a keyboard?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 ธ.ค. 2024
- Most of us love that 'Hammond' organ sound, many of us grew up with it and then went on to own and even perform with Hammonds and other organs of the day. Clonewheels are fantastic at getting the sound, mostly. But what about other affordable and popular keyboards? How do they really compare?
Here's a video from Mike's Vintage Keys, Organ player from his childhood back in the dark ages.
Appreciate you looking in.
Well done Mike, nice to know some one is looking after these lovely old keyboards/organs
@@JohnWellings-k8d thank you, I’m doing my best, not an inexpensive idea!
Mr Mike, You have MADE MY DAY! I have hidden in my heart the love of that B3 sound with the Leslie playing Whiter Shade of Pale. I am just 76 year old tired and retired Volkswagen mechanic with no real musical playing ability. God gave me other talents, but I have an appreciation for those who can play. In Sanford Florida USA, there is a music store that sells and reconditions old Hammond organs you might want to get in touch with if you need parts..... Bird Man Al
@@allanweseman5433 thank you for your comments, so pleased that you enjoyed this.
Hang in there Allan, I'm 68 and have had my old Hammond C-3 for over 40yrs and just recently learned A Whiter shade of pale, so I'm confident that you will as well! 🎹🎹🎹🎹👍
Nice to hear the Hammonds. I used to love going into the local organ shop in High Wycombe and always got the manager to play whiter shades of pale on the Hammonds or lowrey or even a conn ? Loved Hammond the best !
Lovely to see your collection Mike. Several points……I only saw one ‘real tonewheel’Hammond on a stage at Glastonbury in 2024. I suppose roadies are getting weaker now? Not all home playing Hammond purist’s need a B3, A100 or C3. A Hammond A103 ( The French Provincial body styled model with beautiful proportions, legs and in light Cherry wood with the A100 guts ) l recently saw on E-Bay for £1250 in July. It was a bid at 11.39am! Very rare model in the U.K. No one would be able to build a beauty like this now days. But in the past l have enjoyed playing the L, the M and the C at gigs, A different sounding animal on stage than at home. Keep the old girls turning!
@@lerpack455 thank you. I can understand bands not being into transporting real consoles Hammonds and Leslies, a huge effort when few people appreciate the difference. Many players exclusively used to synths and workstations probably don’t want the genuine article either unless it’s a band heavily featuring the organ sound. That sounds like a lovely and rare A100 on EBay. I often the about what a fantastic time it was when you could get a new A100 / C3, M and L, plus 122 and 147s. And to think so many ended up in landfill when people switched to DX7s and the like 🤯
found a perfect ‘62 A100 under blankets at a house sale over the weekend and I’ve been obsessed ever since. I already have a perfect M101 so this was an amazing find.
When you are playing the Hammond, that is went the bass pedals kick it, very nice!
Thank you, comment appreciated.
I played B3 on the East Coast "Chitlin' Circuit in 1965 with Spider Martin, following Johnny 'Hammond' Smith around. I tried for decades to get an authentic B3 from the best clonewheels, but they ALL fail the Palm slap. The Hammond had the 9 mechanical contacts that created the distinctive chiff.
@@thesoundsmith thanks for the comment. It will be interesting to see how the development of multi-contact keys and better keyboard action, leakage effects and so on have on the sound and feel of the clonewheels. I suspect for everyone who has worked with the real thing, nothing else will ever fully compare.
@mikeh-mikesvintaI sold all my Leslie's after I bought, sponsored by Hammond the sk1. Ski is as close as you can get. Just make sure you run in stereo gekeys7739
love the hammond 102 👍🏻👍🏻
@@gerryegan6854 cheers Gerry 👍
The Leslies made the big difference. I love organ sounds. Luckily the Yamaha Montage/Modx now has a patch now called All 9's and im certainly loving it. Still hoping ill be able to sit and play on one of those with the Leslies. Thanks for the video.
@@renebanagudos5533 thanks for watching! I haven’t heard that patch myself, hopefully I’ll get a chance to do so. Simulations are improving, but perhaps for oldies like me who have grown up with an electro-mechanical organ with a mechanical motor driven Leslie have a nostalgic attachment to the ‘feel’ of the equipment and its idiosyncratic variability. Personally, I perceive that the real thing makes me play differently.
@@mikeh-mikesvintagekeys7739So true. There are many good clonewheel and even better VST ‘Hammonds‘ out there, but playing on an ordinary keyboard isn‘t it. I have an HX3-based organ with the original B3 layout and of course waterfall keys - what a difference!
@@mikeh-mikesvintagekeys7739 It's in these easy-going keys as well. Bit like shredding on a guitar.
Great video and just what I've been waiting for all these years. The new arranger keyboards are good at recreating the Hammond sounds. But they fall down when they try to recreate the Leslie vibrato sound. I own a Yamaha Tyros 3 (similar to your 7000). But (after all this time) they can't seem to get that effect of having the bass speaker baffle rotating counterclockwise to the horn in the Leslie speaker right.
@@lickopotamusslurperton1944 thank you very much! Yes, the keyboards like the Genos have got the Hammond tones, and hopefully the Genos 2 has taken it further, but the electronic drawbars don’t seem to behave quite like the real thing and the fast Leslie sim on factory settings is a joke. There are of course many Hammondesque patches and tweakable parameters on many, but I suspect there’s a lot of effort required to get the fast Leslie simulation anywhere near ideal. It does at least try to replicate the bass rotor, which is a step up from the 7000 and other models from that era. My observation is that some of the Hammond simulations see to be over emphasised. I do recognise that the majority of the new keyboard buyers have never and maybe never will play a real Hammond / Leslie setup, and may not even aspire to do so.
@@mikeh-mikesvintagekeys7739 Nice video! The 'Real Rotor' DSP effect on the Genos does nothing for me. I still go to 'Dual Rotor Bright' with tweaked settings. And I love to play mix and match to reproduce the sounds of other long gone makes of organ like Thomas. Tyros and Genos can do this, but it takes a bit of time and you need to be familiar with how the old organs worked. And there are tricks like putting the lower pitch drawbars through one rotary DSP and the higher pitches through another! But nothing, I mean nothing, will ever replace a Leslie (or Sharma, Elkatone etc etc) that really moves the air around. DSP sims can get close to a miked leslie but not the sound of a leslie in free space, maybe on stage or on the other side of the room. My Roland AT900P does a fair job, it has Roland's best drawbar engine and rotary sim inside!
@@andyg1957 thanks Andy, I would have liked to premium keyboards to be able to emulate a real Leslie out of the box. Having to work at tweaking settings is something I would rather the manufacturer had done! The Genos fast rotary is appalling IMO, but I agree, there’s nothing like a Leslie shifting air. I’ll be posting a real world demo of my Mini Vent soon. The AT900 is a fantastic instrument, I’m sure that it’s a joy to play.
Hammond organ + Jon Lord = Magic.😁🎶🎹🎶Play On
Seems like "that organ sound" comes mostly from the Leslie, but the simulations also seem to lack the gentle articulation from the Hammond
@@HHSTuba I agree, the Leslie lifts any organ, there’s something about the whole mechanical effort. Some sims and clones seem to miss some of the subtleties and richness of the Hammond which of course includes the perceived ‘faults’ like cross-talk, contact action and harmonics.
Greetings from stateside, Mike.
I was curious enough to click here and watch this video after having owned a different Roland V-Combo (a VR-09) since 2014 and previously owned a Hammond eat organ and Leslie 31H from 2000 - 2011. (Below is a link to a clip of me attempting to cover Procol Harem on that organ in 2010 when I began trying to sell it.) I grabbed up that Hammond E on the encouragement of my mentor who wanted (me) to own a model featuring the toe couplers, separate swell controls and 32 pedals associated with American Guild of organs specifications. (I would still have it today if it were the RT-3 which matched those AGO specs but with the tonal features of subsequent Consul models like the B3.) I don’t miss it since I’ve had the VR-09. What I wouldn’t mind owning (if I could get one) is a Motion Sound rotary horn to use in lieu of the Leslie simulator, although I still enjoy and utilize the simulator.
th-cam.com/video/iQf8aSGtkm0/w-d-xo.htmlsi=QrPNdFuU-19U6PoB
@@Shred_The_Weapon Greetings Eric, I enjoyed your video. I thought that the E sounded great through the Leslie. The E is vary rare over here, I’ve seen some RT3s around, and there’s still one or two in studios, they are fantastic but not as popular as the B / C / A100 it seems. I saw a used Motion Sound cab for sale recently and was tempted, but as I’ve not heard one live I didn’t want to take the chance, although it was less expensive than the equivalent Leslie 2101 etc. I would think it would be an improvement on the VR-09 simulator.
To begin with,@@mikeh-mikesvintagekeys7739, thanks so much for responding. I think it was a dental reason that there is something about a bona fide rotating speaker system that can never be digitized. I played into a Motion Sound rotary horn once at a retailer in the New Jersey town of Paramus, and I can tell you that it lives up to the hype. The only difference from the Leslie cabinet behind the name might have been an aesthetic that comes with those cabinets, but it definitely provided the desired effect. Was one of the studios to what you referred Abbey Road? I know that facility was equipped with multiple Hammond organ models through the time the Beatles were together.
@@Shred_The_Weapon thanks for the insights on the Motion Sound, very interesting. I don’t know if Abbey Road still have the RT3, but I did see something about a console Hammond being serviced for them. They list a B3 in their inventory.
Just found you.Look forward to some more videos.
Thank you and welcome!
I was a professional organist/keyboard for many years.L103 +122 Leslie,X5 with 760, Wurlitzer piano and other gadgets.Just play at home ....to much travelling.
@@eredison8584 I just can’t imagine moving all that kit around these day, I have enough trouble moving an organ across the room! I had an M 102 + 122, later an X5 + 760 and Rhodes. At least you could get the modern stuff in a car if you were so inclined. Best regards.
I sold the X5 many years ago.It was a lovely instrument.Did you find that there was a small bulb under the swell pedal and when the bulb blew the volume pedal stopped working and the only way to adjust the volume was by the volume knob on the right of the lower manual.Never understood why,but nice organ to play.
@@eredison8584 I never knew that and I had two!
I still prefer the real organ sound from the Hammond, with all the upper, lower and pedals. Amazing leslie at the Hammond.
Hi Mike, I bought a Viscount Legend Live (Hammond clone) six years ago. I think it's very close to a Hammond in both appearance and sound. The Version 2 Electronic leslie sim is superb in my honest opinion, only beaten by the real thing !! Also Mike, what part of the U.K. do you live in ?
@@christ7897 Hi Chris, the Viscount looks and sounds great. Are you going to post some content of you playing it? I’m based in Scotland.
@@mikeh-mikesvintagekeys7739 Probably not Mike, there are far better Viscount Legend players posting on TH-cam.
Thanks for sharing! Although I am not a first line keyboard player, I did dabble in piano and synth over the years and I have loved the Hammond and Leslie sound above all else. During the years that I played above average trumpet, I was part of a demo recording session where I also played the studio B3 and piano parts. What fun back in the very late 60's.
@@astrorad2000 thank you, that sounds like fun. There’s just something about that Hammond / Leslie sound, the mechanical, the slightly inconsistent electronic tones and the Leslie moving the air, fantastic.
In the electric guitar world it is well known that the biggest difference to tone comes from changing speakers, not amps or even guitars. This seems to be born out here where it's clearly impossible to truly replicate the awesome sound of a real leslie speaker. It's the leslie that really creates "that sound". Otherwise to my ears most of your keyboards produced perfectly usable Hammond sounds and when routed through the real leslie were to all intents and purposes indistinguishable from the real thing. Which argues that your original leslie speaker collection is the most critical thing to preserve - the organs can be copied/sampled adequately for most recording and stage purposes, the leslies it seems can't. I guess the only reason they're not incredibly valuable is that they are very big and very heavy so folks haven't got space for them and can't be arsed to cart them around.
@@Gregorovitch144 thank you. I think that’s absolutely right, provided that the tones are pretty good which generally is the case. I think to organ enthusiasts (I’m sure it’s the same with guitars - where I often struggle to tell the difference), the subtle harmonics, hums, clicks and whirs are often missing, although many clones now have these effects available. I can’t criticise anyone for not wanting to move around an incredibly heavy and probably temperamental organ / Leslie setup, which is probably why it tends to be only the bigger names with roadies and technicians employed that are willing to do it.
@@mikeh-mikesvintagekeys7739In the last 35 years I've seen exactly two Hammond/Leslie setups on stage. One from a local band, and one from a small nationally touring act from American Idol. It seems that somehow people used to be able to cart them, but now they just won't. The thing is all those simulations are perceived as "good enough," but in the old days when that Hammond wailed people stood around in awe and it was sensational sound. That doesn't happen with the new tech. Rarely, never, does a Hammond simulation stop the show with sensational sound.
Very intersting to hear these comparisons. It seems to me that some of the newer keyboards do not get Leslie tremolo exactly right. It may be (my opinion only, do not have proof of the following) that accurately replicating Leslie tremolo may have so many subtleties to it that it might be too expensive to copy it accurately. This same opinion holds for Hammond scanner type vibrato. The new instruments seem to have the steady (no vibrato, Leslie trem or Leslie chorale) down quite well. but adding these animation effects is an area that needs more attention. I have noticed a very "Leslie-like" effect occurs if you have an older Hammond and use V3 and also two separate Hammond tone cabinets. Although the audio signal at each tone cabinet will be in phase, the different placement of each will make what a listener hears have at least a slightly different phase relationship which seems somewhat to simulate the effect of a real Leslie on the tremolo setting. BTW, I subscribed to your channel. Look forward to more videos from you! The HAMMOND Guy
@@HAMMONDGuy-B3X66 thank you. I think that there are so many variables in the relationship between an electromechanical organ, which will be at least 50 years old, and probably has a degree of variation in tones between all the notes. There’s also the interaction between the player and the instrument and how they respond to the quirks. Then the Leslie - how it reacts between ramp up and slow down, relays, wind noise and, like the organ, crosstalk, hum etc. For me, I can’t see past the real thing, I believe in a synergy between the instrument and the player but I’m not having to transport one and I’m not gigging, so I do understand why someone would legitimately prefer a clone wheel.
@@mikeh-mikesvintagekeys7739 You touched upon a very important item here, the interaction between the player and the instrument. I can certainly relate from personal experience that if I do not like what I am hearing, I do not play with any enthusiasm or excitement and usually try to get off the bench in under 2 minutes, as I did a few months ago when I encountered a new "clonewheel" that felt for me musically like a painter trying to create a beautiful painting on toilet paper; whereas if I like what I am hearing, I'll happily play for several hours. And I have observed this phenomenon with other musicians I know when they encounter various different instruments in different settings.
Do i spy a Technics Kn 2000?
@@procta2343 well spied!
NEVER COMPARE TO A TONEWHEL HAMOND
The clone wheels soud too tinny on their own, but through the leslie, soud near as good as the old organs. However still prefer the organs.
I think that the organs offer a different experience for the player and that can effect the ways it’s played.
I can sum up the entire truth right away. That Hammond you played up front was SCREAMIN' and nothing else will come close. When you switched to the Yamaha Genos and then the Roland, they both sounded like hammered dog poop. However if you made me do an A/B blind comparison, I suspect I wouldn't be able to name a preference. That's it.
@@TheLarryBrown thank you. There’s certainly something about the genuine Hammond Tonewheel sound, even in the small spinets like the M102. I think you’re right, in a blind test it would be hard to tell them apart, but most old Hammond players like the feel and experience of the genuine instrument.
@ 2.30, you're showing your age there! (but equally, so am i).
You’re right! Morecombe and Wise, it’s also true!
Is the Leslie speaker company still around? If so, do they still make a rotating speaker like the vintage Hammonds organs used? If not, why not?
And if they're not still around, has any other company come out with a credible clone? Those Leslie speakers we all love aren't highly complex pieces of technology. We're not talking about nuclear reactors here, so how hard could it be to make them again and make them compatible with today's keyboards?
@@Ken5244-h5g The original Leslie company started by Don Leslie went through several owners. The name is now owned by Hammond-Suzuki who manufacture new Leslies of various designs, some similar to the most popular old ones like the 122. See www.hammond.eu/Products/ProductsGallery?brand=Leslie
Viscount also make rotary cabinets as do some others. None of the simulations can quite capture the mechanical ‘feel’ of the real horn rotor models IMHO. However, even Hammond Suzuki with their access to the designs found it difficult to convince the serious enthusiasts that the new ones were quite right when introduced. Of course the real cabinets are hugely expensive compared with a simulator. I have a Ventilator ‘pedal’ which is pretty good, certainly better than the effects built into keyboards that I’ve tried myself. Still, they are improving all the time and the latest Hammond keyboards seem possibly the best of the bunch.
I have heard that Leslie tried to sell the rights to his tremulator to Hammond and they refused and always remained a separate company, but anybody buying a new Hammond was encouraged to get the Leslie at the same time
@@allanweseman5433 apparently Mr Hammond did not like the sound of the Leslie and steadfastly did not cooperate with Leslie and so Hammond made their own Tone Cabinets with fixed speakers. Dealers were more alive to popular tastes and promoted the Leslie, which was also a very expensive addition to the purchase of an organ. This meant that fitting kits needed to be used to operate a Leslie from a Hammond, and some others, whilst Lowrey offered some models that allowed the Leslie to be operated directly from the console.
@@mikeh-mikesvintagekeys7739 Thanks for all that great info, Mike. I wouldn't want to go the simulator route, but I don't have the money for an authentic, vintage Leslie that's still in great working order. I'll check out that Ventilator 'pedal' you mentioned.
You cannot be called an organist oif you dont know pedalling.
That’s where the single manual keyboard looses out IMHO. Thank you.
Plastic music.