Was Dune 2 Actually Good?? - Intentionally Blank Ep. 154
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 มิ.ย. 2024
- Brandon Sanderson and Dan Wells sit down to talk about how they loved Dune 2 in a normal amount of time that is typical of any other podcast. They take a look at the story, casting, and the future all on this episode of Intentionally Blank!
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Chapters
(0:00) - Cutting Edge News
(1:01) - Spoiler Alert Warning for Dune 2
(1:33) - Ranking Dune 2 vs Dune 1
(2:36) - Dunes Weird Book Structure
(6:25) - The Best Dune 2 that it could have been
(7:17) - Dans One Problem
(10:01) - Brandon's Rebuttal
(13:17) - The Good Changes
(13:56) - Dune Part 3 or Dune Messiah?
(15:00) - Thoughts on Feyd-Rautha
(18:55) - A Story of Opposing Forces
(19:55) - Christopher Walkin Thoughts
(23:29) - Toddler Alia
(26:05) - Zendaya as Chani
(27:27) - Beast Rabban thoughts
(28:05) - Brandon's "Worst Part"
(30:34) - Dune Box office talk
(32:03) - New Dune Properties
(33:39) - Hollywood's Restraint in Sequels - บันเทิง
At first, I was confused like Dan why Paul decided to go ahead and drink the water of life, but I realized his decision centered around the destruction of Sietch Tabr. after it’s destroyed, Paul says “I didn’t see this,” then he talks to Jamie in a vision of some kind and Jamie says to drink the water of Life and he will see, and then after Paul drinks the water, he says “I see everything now,” so in the end, his decision to drink the water of life is motivated by wanting to protect those he cares about.
Agree. That's what I took away as the movie's intent as well.
I do think it was a little hard to follow his decision and that the movie could have done more to explicitly connect it with the destruction of Sietch Tabr. Because they didn't have the two year time jump in the movie he is not as connected with Sietch Tabr as he is in the book where that's been his home for two years. Also (book spoiler ahead) his and Chani's son dies in Sietch Tabr so there is another personal reason that that destruction is a catalyst. It's fine that the movie cut that, but I do think it would have been good for there to be more reason shown as to why the destruction of Sietch Tabr was so impactful for Paul.
Nah yeah Villeneuve fucked the story up a lot for me as a fan of the books...
*Book 1 spoiler, don't read further if you if you intend on reading first book (which I highly recommend you do)*
There is a time jump in which Paul and Chani have a son named Leto II, and Alia is already born.... when Sietch Tabyr is attacked baby Leto II is killed by Harkonnens and Alia is taken hostage to the emperors ship. It's not just their baby being killed but also Gurney holding a knife to Jessica's neck because he thought for 4 years straight that Jessica was the one who betrayed Leto and House Atreides. It's these events that motivate Paul to take the water of life because he couldn't see these events coming.
@@DHass-nl4jz agreed. See, going into the movie, I was expecting it to be after the time jump, so I wasn’t expecting it to pick up right where Part 1 left off. Made everything feel a little rushed. Still love the movie, but I think I like Part 1 better.
Why does the Emperor order Duke Leto to Arrakis?
I agreed with Dan the first time I watched it - that the specific rationale for Paul's decision to head south AT THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT isn't very well conveyed.
The second time I watched it, I realized that the tipping point was what immediately preceded Paul's decision: the Harkonnen raid of Sietch Tabr. In the aftermath of that, Paul says "I didn't SEE it coming". That's really the key line there.
The whole first half we see him grappling with this decision - do I fight as a fremen among fremen and attain revenge by slowly bleeding out the Harkonnen apparatus, or do I step into the messianic role and accomplish the same in a fraction of the time, but with cascading consequences that spiral out into uncontrollable bloodshed. But when he realizes that his prescience fundamentally has limitations, he is forced to reevaluate what hangs in the balance of that choice.
Knowing his prescience is 'incomplete', he comes to the uncomfortable realization that achieving victory as a mere fremen is far from guaranteed. That without being able to 'see further', nothing is guaranteed.
And that's the moment that the scale tips ever so slightly but irreversibly towards the other direction. When confronted with a choice between uncertainty and control, he caves and picks the latter.
Wouldn't that prove that Dan is right and Paul's arc in general is poorly conveyed?
@@-tom-8720 You could definitely make that argument. But I also definitely like the movie more after a second watch because I caught things I didn't the first time around.
@@-tom-8720 Not really. Throughout the conversations in this podcast, Dan always seems to miss a lot of subtle details in everything he sees, and this might just be one more case of it.
Brandon saw it as pretty obvious, and many other people as well, including people who haven't seen the original Lynch adaptation or read the books.
The movie chooses to trust the viewer to put the pieces together, and that is a very respectable way of telling a story. Handholding is another, they both ask different things from viewers, but it is all a matter of preference.
@@-tom-8720 not really, no. It was pretty clear if you paid attention
@@-tom-8720it is poorly conveyed in the movie because they removed his deep relationship with Chani and their son.
You guys always have some wild takes on movies. Dune Part Two being slower than part One, is one of those takes.
It kind of is. In terms of action, it's faster. In terms of character development and plot, it's so slow as to go almost nowhere. I say almost because you do get a couple of moments where a character just suddenly flip flops.
Yeah part 2 felt like a montage. It just jumps from one scenario to another with very little connecting tissue.
@@erenbecomesdovecrying6016 I really don't understand this complaint. What is your idea of "connecting tissue" exactly? The film has a plot, and the scenes play out that plot in a linear, logical fashion.
@@merlordmodding Dude's just trying to have a hot take
@merlordmodding there's not a lot of build between the events. The movie jumps from one huge event to another without much plotting, conversation, or storytelling. I'm not saying it's bad necessarily, but it does move incredibly fast in terms of telling the story of Dune.
I'm just pushing back on the idea that Dune 2 moves slow.
I don’t think Paul has villainous intent. He resists his fate as long as possible, but in the end sees no other way.
Agreed, I don't think it's entirely fair to call him a villain (though I understand the choice of words cuz saying he is a hero is not quite true also).
I can see why DV chose to portray the heel turn to make that known to the audience. But in the books we get a much more nuanced view of Paul's internal struggle.
Ironically, having prescience and knowing the future illuminates for Paul just how little agency he has. He *will* become a messianic instrument of great strife regardless of what he does - locked in a seemingly endless pattern of human violence that plays out over and over again throughout the epochs
Probably, but they don’t really explain it well. Also, the book implies that the inevitability of the jihad was due to Paul’s hubris. This movie blames it on Jessica I guess. Also, he talks about a “narrow path” but it isn’t clear if that path was intended to avoid the jihad or what. So in the end when the jihad happens, was that him succeeding or failing at the narrow path.
As good as the Dune movies were, going out of the cinema, I couldn't stop thinking that this is the treatment I want Misbtorn or Stormlight to get. A masterfully done passion project
Denis Villeneuve directing a Cosmere adaptation would be incredible for sure
literally my thoughts while watching these in imax
@@srlong1123He would be a terrible fit for them, and I'm a Denis stan
Sanderson's stories are all about fast paced action and clearly defined powers, fun dialogue and characters. Denis's style is the LITERAL opposite of that.
Let's not just say we'd love a guy we like doing literally any project we also like the source material of...
@@LeoSkyro yes he's literally said he doesn't care about dialogue just how stuff looks on screen. Really weird take for a director of fiction.
@@LeoSkyro Michael Bay Mistborn!
Brandon Sanderson is one of those people who is so prolific that I've wondered before, "How does this guy get so much done?"... here he is, signing autographs while simultaneously podcasting and talking in-depth about a complex story... I'm just like, "No wonder this guy gets so much done."
For me Paul’s “heel turn” is just him picking the best future for him, and a small group of his people. In the movie he mentions “enemies all around, but I see a narrow way through.”
He is choosing the behaviors and actions that will lead to his success in the long term, despite the temporary damage he will do to his people.
It really bugs me how people misrepresent Paul's relationship with the Fremen. Yes, he used them as warriors, but he definitely did not exploit them in the way people are portraying it. He eventually terraforms the planet and literally gives them the green paradise they've yearned after for generations. They got exactly what they wanted from him. The conflict comes from the fact that they weren't prepared for such a radical shift in their lifestyle, and that causes a splinter faction of traditionalist fremen who want to go back to the old ways.
I think super terrifying resolution of Toddler Alia problem would be showing Jessica killing Harkonen and later showing a vision with Anya standing on the dessert with blood on her knife. Jessica already seemed crazy and possesed by her on the movie, this scene would emphasise that. Not including this have a devastating consequences on Alia's further character development.
Oh I like that. I really dont mind the way the movie does it, but this could have worked.
I think that would work well for Alia. But make no sense for Jessica without further developing her hate for her literal father. Imo Paul was the best person to kill him for an on screen adaptation.
@@carontorliak2760 I mean that Alia would kill baron using her mother, controlling her. It wouldn't be Jessica's conscious decision. However she has as many reasons to hate baron as Paul (Vladimir's literal grandson).
The Emperor in Dune: "I got a fever, and the only prescription is more Spice!"
Walk without a rhythm. And you wont. Attract. The worm.
@@chickenmonger123Oh man, now we know why Christopher Walken talks without rhythm!
"Except when I put my pants on, I make gold records". I once met ol Col. Angus down the way by Shady Thickets. What a distinguished man of culture he was!! Thoroughly impressed with the old codger.
now you've ruined these movies for me FOREVER 😂😂😂
Sadly that's how I felt whenever I saw him on screen. It kind of took me out
I wanted more of: the Guild Navigators, because leaving them out means we never really got a sense of the true importance of Spice; Gurney's backstory, as it really does explain his loyalty to the Atreides; a longer time span for Paul to become Muad Dib; Paul's reaction after taking the water of life, not just drink and become evil but him going through the surely immense mental rewiring that comes with being able to see everything all at at once.
I didn't see it as Paul becoming "evil" when he drank the Water of Life. I saw him making a choice to do something he knows will complicate things, so that he can more aptly choose the path he will follow, understanding the costs and benefits as he chooses.
I get that the movies can't be the books, but they cut out SO MANY important details, and without those details, the characters' motivations either made no sense, or were as contrived as of the lazy writing coming out of Hollywood these days. Not to mention the direction they took Chani really pissed me off. It really took the nuance out of what Herbert was trying to get across. Instead of a complex story about being forced to make make choices because of forces beyond your control for the good of your people, they reduced her down to a pouting brat.
Bro wanted a 10 hour movie 💀
@@firstNamelastName-ho6lvYou didn't?
I think there’s a directors cut in the works…. So many scenes were shot and then cut.
always felt weird telling people I preferred the first movie because the hype online was crazy after Dune part 2 came out. Happy to hear that I wasn't the only one enjoying the first one more
Paul makes the "Decision" when he goes to commute with Jamis after he is being called by the council of leaders in the south, he goes talks to Jamis who tells him "You must see" which means that even Jamis wants him to go to the south and perform the ritual. Then he talks to Chani and tells her that he fears that if he goes South he might lose her, she assures him that he won't as long as he stays who he is, and there he makes the choice of basically going with the flow on this one instead of keep struggling against it. For as much power as Paul has, he is slave to destiny.
I think both films are 10/10 Part 2 is much faster pacing wise and most of the changes from the book are pretty smart. Denis said he is adapting Frank Herbert's intention, not the book, because even that book is flawed, which led to Herbert writing Dune Messiah to clarify his intentions with the first book. Denis has this hindsight and decided to do just that from the beginning. Like Brandon says, that is the entire point of Part 2 and why the signposting is so strong in that direction.
Pretending you know the intentions of a dead author always sounds so arrogant, and typically ends up being what the director wishes the author intended, not what they actually intended. There are ways to better emphasize that Paul is not a hero besides changing Channi’s character and having her leave. In fact, I’d argue it diminishes the real horror of what Paul is. They should have shown the horrors of the Jihad. The billions killed. Not “Oh so sad the protagonist lost the girl.”
@@Florkl There's no need to "pretend" anything here. It is very well documented that Herbert was dismayed by the reaction people had to Paul in the first book, thinking of him as a heroic savior, which is exactly what Herbert was warning people about.
Denis is not pretending to know intentions, he knows them, the same as many other readers who have gone beyond the book and started to learn about Herbert as a person and his own thoughts about his own work. There isn't arrogance in there, only respect.
Chaging Chani's character is just one of the ways to make clear that Paul is on a path to destruction, but it is one of the most effective ones because it affects Paul on a personal level instead of just presenting the situation as a "Big Picture" kind of deal. It humanizes Paul even further, focuses on the irony of him being a walking God and still being a slave to destiny, it creates a tangible thing for him to lose, and it also creates a more dynamic Fremen society, which instead of being shown as a monolith, shows it as being composed of individuals with different beliefs and values, which is way more realistic.
While Denis is adapting Herbert's intentions, which affect the movie on a character and thematic level the most, he is still working within the confines of the book, thus, showing the horrors of the Jihad and millions killed makes no sense because that war hasn't started, and it only begins in the last couple of minutes. These horrors are still alluded to in the film using Paul's visions, which feed into his reluctance to follow the path that has been laid before him.
So, your solution ends up being something that goes outside the confines of the first book, and also makes the entire situation one-dimensional. Instead, the movie goes for a more layered approach that fits better the situation, the feelings and the logical conundrums that characters are facing within the story.
@@glass12 This is interesting - I misunderstood Herbert too, but in a way where I was always disappointed with the resolution to book 1. I always thought book 2 was a great pre-Sanderson-esque ending to the Paul Atreides story.
@@glass12I am aware of the regrets- that’s why I mentioned emphasizing the horrors of Paul’s actions. It’s everything beyond what’s documented that I have issues with. Slightly extending the scope of the timeline for the movie to show a bit of that jihad in action is still much less of a change than what they did to Chani. Especially since any adaptation of Dune Messiah will have to either be wildly different from the book, or else walk back the change, making it a waste of time and negating the message.
@@Florkl I disagree completely. Overextending the timeline to show that in this movie makes no sense, not only because that is not part of the first book, and thus scenes likes those are better saved for the third film but also because there wouldn't be enough time to make them justice, and it would only end up hurting the pacing and cohesion of this film.
That's why Dune Messiah exist in the first place, and thus it makes sense to dedicate an entire film to those consequences, instead of an appendix in this one.
What they did to Chani only creates a more complex character, which is always welcome in my opinion. Also, Paul very clearly states in this movie that he has seen that Chani will come around, and why not? They are clearly in love, and Chani's reaction is more than logical for the character she was established in the movie as, however, being a complex character and not just the idea of one, she, just like Paul will struggle to find a way to make their relationship work even if everything is put against, even themselves. Nothing done in Part 2 negates any message at all, it just adds more layers to the situation, as it should be.
Also, the ending of this film with Chani going into the desert makes perfect sense if you go back to see Part 1 and how that movie ended and also how Messiah will end. Denis is clearly thinking ahead when making decision for each one of these films.
2:03 "Dune Part 2 didn't feel as urgent, it was a little slower" Idk man, to me it felt complete opposite 😅
I feel like Dune dropped the ball pretty hard in the scene where Paul says he's going to marry Irulan. In the book there is the whole explanation that she's going to be the wife, but in name only, and that Chani as concubine is the favored person. Irulan is never going to even get to touch him. It is a big payoff for all the epigraphs written by Irulan that shows a kind of obsession with Paul, and as a slap in the face to the Bene Gesserit and their plotting.
It also makes Chani much better character than she is in the book. More believeable and suits better is different time scale!
@@haukionkannelThey just had to make a woman conflict with a man in this day and age there can never be harmony shown between men and women. Girl bosses have to boss.
@@haukionkannel Or. By cutting Hara and entire facet of Fremen culture to appease common western sensibilities diminish her character. Fremen where polygamous and Chani having problems with extra wifes is unFremenlike.
@@pofruin that’s not her problem LOL. Her problem is he becomes something she doesn’t want to follow.
I don't agree, Paul tells Chani over and over again, most notably mere moments before saying he will wed Irulan, that he loves her and only her for as long as he breathes. Previously in the movie, Lady Jessica tells Paul that he will wed the most strategic partner.
This does more than enough to get the message across that it's a power-establishing wedding and that it will never be anything but surface level.
We DID get to see Bautista's Rabban be a beast and a brute. The scene in the first film where he is beheading prisoners, and also his general foolishness and tactical mistakes. In Dune 2 he makes an attack against Fedaykin and they defeat his forces so utterly he immediately runs for his life. That's his fall, the beast has been put in its place, which is why he's not showing that "beast" for the rest of the film.
Most of the dinner scene only makes sense because everything is explained about the secret phrase and why things are being said. To make that scene make sense you would need an entire movie alone of backstory so that everyone understands all the layers and references.
That is an odd quibble, about the Paul not saying "Desert Power" or in general the film being more expositional or literal. They show us the desert power for the entire middle portion of the film and then really flop it out at the end in a terrifying way. Like as cool as the battle of Arrakeen was, it was also an exacrt display of the exactr thing that Paul feared but couldn't escape. I feel it was as in your face as it could be without being told. Anything else would have been a heavy hand on something that was already fairly heavy handed. Zero subtlety.
The only thing I missed from this adaption was not getting to see Chani and Paul lose their first child and that also cementing the bond so that the end scene doesn't feel like he is totally betraying Chani. He is betraying himself but not here. It will also make Dune Messiah a lot different if she is something of a foil to Paul. With the lack of a character like Otheym being set up, it almost feels like Chani might replace him in some way in Messiah. That being said, I have faith in Denis and his creative team because, this was a good an adaptation as we would get in a movie form.
Sting or Patrick Stuart would have been great alternative casting for the Shaddam the IV, Sting would've (could still) be a cool Count Fenring. I don't need any cameos from the OG but if they were going to do that those spots would have fit well.
It's the inevitability of the jihad Paul was constantly fighting against in the book, and the heel turn is the acknowledgement that there is literally no holding back the galactic-level need for genetic refreshment after thousands of years of separation and stagnation.
It's kind of the iron fate of Greek tragedies with a dose of Jung thrown in, I feel.
I think making a third middle film would have risked needing to either contrive a dramatic midpoint finale like the Hobbit films, or have sort of an anticlimax. As cool as the worm ride is, it wouldn't make much of a finale.
I do hope that the third film, Messiah, illustrates the level of prescience Paul experiences that would explain his sudden change into a seemingly heartless leader
Hobbit was terrible as a 3 parter, and would have been far better as a 2 parter imo.
I agree with these two in that Dune needed 3 films. So much was left out (especially mentats, Arrakeen culture more BG etc).
Also, they could have made them a bit shorter while omitting less.
For pronunciation, Frank Herbert did interviews where he pronounced Harkonnen as you hear it in Denis' movies.The fight of Paul against his cousin showcases Paul's transformation to villain. He denies Gurney's revenge after completing his own, for the sake of his own prestige.
Yes…yes it was
Came here to find and like this comment.
IMO I'd put Dune 2 at a 10/10 and Dune 1 at a 9/10
@@BioStormX yup. I’m a harsh critic, normally. Dune 2 was the best movie since Fellowship of the Ring.
@@BioStormX So rare for a sequel to do better, not since maybe Empire Strikes Back
@@error.418What do people always forget Wrath of Khan when discussing superior sequels??
Dune Messiah would be a great part 3 because that concludes Paul's story
I disliked how they did Chani
pitting her against paul works, but with the shortened timeline it undercuts their relationship massively for me
and outright pitting her against the Fremen makes her feel distinctly not fremen. Whereas she was the window & anker point into that culture in the books
She can take the role of the Fremen who miss the old ways in Messiah and ultimately participate in the conspiracy. She sees herself as staying loyal to the Fremen while others have abandoned the culture in exchange for ruling the galaxy.
The timing was a bit off for me in dune 2. She was pregnant the entire time but then Paul gathered all these people to follow him, millions of people in that short of a time frame? That’s tough for me.
It wasn't a short time though, it actually does take place over more time. That's why they said it's kind of like a montage, more time is implied to be happening than what we directly see on screen. Jessica going south happened quite a while after they got there, and then she was in the south for a long time. Rabban fought against the Fremen for a long time before Feyd Rautha gets involved. The way they show the ambushes on harvesters, implies that there are more we aren't seeing, and I don't think they're just doing them every day without ever going back home. Plus Gurney Halleck's story implies he had enough time to get a job he's already tired of. The movie was fast but it was depicting time passing, maybe even the two years from the books.
Great discussion
32:41
the Dune: Prophecy trailer was just released about the same time as this video
it's indeed going the prequel route with bene gesserit!
Dan Wells needs to rewarded a full case of soda :)
Came to share this trailer.
I'm so excited for Dune Prophecy. I'm a massive fan of the Brian/Kevin books, and I think the show will help people understand that Dune, as a saga, is about the Sisterhood and it saving humanity from itself
@@Spoonishpls I am little worried that it is giving to much GOT vibes. Could be bad. But maybe not
@@TK4K411 Me too. Especially after looking at the casting, I'm afraid of them just taking a few things from the source material and just making everything else up to try and get a new GOT. Then it fails and they say well audiences just don't want fantasy anymore 🙄
@@SpoonishplsGiven how butchered WoT was I'm very sceptical about this series...
After I saw Dune Part 2, I felt like I might have missed something about Paul's process leading up to going south. So then I went back to see it on my own the next week! On rewatch, I could appreciate all the buildup, building blocks, and the moment of decision leading to it.
The movie presents characters on a journey, but it doesn't hold your hand or explain everything to you. I honestly liked that I had to rewatch it to understand the film. 10/10 for me.
huh, when i rewatched it my takeway was that he randonly sees jamis who says something random and suddenly paul goes south
My favourite part of Dune was when Paul joined the FBI and went to investigate a mysterious murder in a small Pacific northwest town.
Grade-a reference 👍
I love Dan's dad addition to this discussion.
I really don't think Paul is a villain in the books or the movies. It's incredibly nuanced, nowhere near as simple as "villain" or "hero" - he sees/feels the Jihad happening as an inevitability, even if he were to die right then and there. The momentum has begun and he can't stop it.
Seems like so many people did not read the Frank Herbert Dune books. Has everyone forgotten about the Golden Path? Bottom line is Paul separated himself from the path. The Golden Path was generations of a Theocracy with an iron hand for control with large amounts of death all in his name but the outcome would put the human race in the best possible position to survive. In doing so it would require him to be regarded as a despot, a tyrant king and also to be a God. Paul couldn't make that decision; he could skirt with it for the protection of his family and for the death of his enemies but he couldn't fully embrace it and so he abandoned it and in doing so removed himself from the Golden path. We learn later that his son Leto would see the path and make the decision to follow it. The path would be at the cost of his humanity, his family, and friends and eventually his life.
Context from Dune Messiah when he is abandoned in the desert - “He told me the future no longer needed his physical presence,” Tandis had reported. “When he left me, he called back. ‘Now I am free’ were his words.”
Thank you, the folks that are raving for this adaption have obviously never read the books or have forgotten them. Having read the books multiple times, watched all versions (the SpiceDiver’s as well) , I currently feel the SyFi version was a better adaptation (would be interesting to see what they could have done with a huge budget and a few more hours. The new version is visually stunning and beautiful, it does lose much of the plot and makes some jumps to fill gaps, for someone that’s never read the books, it works, although they will miss a lot that from the books. If anything maybe some folks will take the chance to pick up the books and get the full picture/experience.
@@michaelpayne8102I started to watch Dune part 1 and I think I was ten or fifteen minutes in when I ordered Herberts six books.
It just drew me in. I wanted to know all about the magic system, the politics, the history.
As I kept watching I just got more and more excited to get my brain on those books.
@@ramudon2428 That’s the one blessing for the movies, the opportunity to get more ppl to read the actual work.
@@michaelpayne8102 Indeed. Dune has always been right outside of my intentions, for decades, the movie just pushed it right over the line.
The only redeeming quality of the wheel of time series for instance has to be that it may bless some poor soul with the joy of reading the series who otherwise wouldn't have.
I missed Alia, but she's my favorite character in the entire series. I understand what you're saying about how hard it is to do the child version but I think to do her character justice in the next movie there will need to be a lot of leg work to make up for lost time. People should be terrified of her, and they should have good reason. Plus she should be fremen through and through and I'm not sure how that will happen in the palace.
Oh! I understand that line now. "...by being Harkonnens." Ive seen it twice now and hadn’t understood that line but Dan's mere mention of it cleared that up. Cool, thanks guys!
So after watching Dune 2 I did a relisten to the audiobooks and decided to power on past Children of Dune where I gave up last time. What I noticed is right at the beginning of God Emperor of Dune it starts with a heist wherein a young woman steals the journal of a seemingly immortal tyrant who has made himself a god and that journal is studied by conspirators seeking to kill the effectively unkillable god with excerpts of the journal used as interludes between chapters... (seems familiar doesn't it?)
so the way i see it is it appears that Brandon took the point where most readers reading Dune myself included are turned off and put the story down (ie Leto choosing the golden path and becoming an immortal god emperor) and made it the starting point for Mistborn.
It is also of note that in Dune House Atreides dovetails nicely with Preservation and House Harkonin Dovetails nicely with ruin and it is only by embracing his dual nature as both an atreides and harkonin that paul is able to overthrow the emporer...
in my opinion Frank Herbert excelled at world building and philosiphising but the later stories lacked any characters with which the reader can truly connect I just didn't care what happened because I was just hearing words with no connection to any characters...
Mistborn does a better job of giving me characters with whom I could connect and a narrative that was enjoyable beyond book 1.
spice = atium
spice is derived from the worms atium is pieces of a gods body
spice gives users prescient visions atium gives mistborn prescience into a near future
Damn, never made the connection before. Especially the atium stuff, good insight.
spice is used as a basis for monetary exchange atium is used as monetary exchange
I recently read "We are legion, we are Bob". For some reason, I couldn't help but envision Bob as Brandon Sanderson.
Well, that's affecting my reading. Thanks!
Legend has it, Brandon is still signing booklets
I actually think the signposting for him becoming a villain is kinda ambiguous, leaving it open to interpretation.
It is, what is clear is that he is being forced to take a path he doesn't want to because it leads to the death of billions.
This perfectly fits the way Paul is portrayed in Dune Messiah. He is never depicted as an evil person, he is not a Sauron or a Voldermort type character, but did open up the path for countless atrocities to be done in his name, and he is conflicted about it, as he should.
Things just got out of hand.
I agree 100%. In this movie it is not clear that he is a villain at all. For all we know, he could be right that defeating the Harkonnens and the emperor at all costs is the lesser of evils due to what they would do over time if he doesn't. I think people are using their knowledge of later books to inform their understanding of this movie, which doesn't say anywhere concretely that his decision was wrong or villainous.
@@glass12 This. This is why Paul is such a great character. People try and say he is the villian of the story but that is just as much an over simplification of him as saying he is the Chosen One. House Harkonnen and House Corrino are definitely villians in the story and I would argue that defeating them is a heroic moment. Atleast for the Fremen, who are the main viewpoint we are viewing the Harkonnen occupation from. And you could say that the lives of most of the Fremen improved from what Paul did.
But it is a classic example of "do the ends justify the means", and why we shouldnt put people on pedestals. Paul doesnt feel good about it but I think he feels justified and there are terrible consequences for what happens. If he hadnt done what he did what would have become of the Fremen and the Harkonnens? Violence still would have occured.
No, you’re supposed to agree with Chani cause she’s a woman
I mean I think the whole story is very clear that he's the villian, but builds up enough threads of doubt as to make it interesting.
I havent read the Dune books. But ive enjoyed both movies so far. Looking forward to #3.
Right off the bat I'm very confused. The book does not skip them falling in love It does not skip him becoming Fremen and it does not skip hit him learning how to ride a sandworm....
That said, I completely understood why they didnt do the leap.
I need to watch these more. They are good.
I've read ALL the books, seen ALL the TV/movie versions. The universe and the story created in Dune is vast. With many choices for the storyline. I was happy with the choices made for this movie. Most try to tell too much and confuse the story more
I think its also important to note that paul saw that chani died if he stayed north. It was really easy to miss but important
I have never read the books.I'm just starting now But I actually found the movies very easy to follow. Also I found The metaphors very easy to follow as well
The first dune book is "three books" shoulda kept that structure.
apart from paul being at odds with chani to show he's a villain, there are 4 other scenes that showcase he is;
the first time is when he tells jessica that he has to sway the non-believers to be able to enact his revenge,
the second time is when jessica talks with alia about needing to convert "the weak ones, the vulnerable ones, the ones who fear us",
the third time is when paul and jessica talk just before jessica heads to the deep south, when paul tells her "it's not a prophecy. it's a story you tell them, but it's not their story it's yours",
the fourth is when irulan talks with gaius mohiam about the religious motifs around muad'dib being of bene gesserit origin.
in other words, before he even drinks the water of life, both paul and jessica are maneuvering to use the fremen for revenge. paul may have second thoughts when he falls in love with chani, but they are eventually brushed aside.
Trailer dropped a few days ago for Dune: Prophecy and it apparently starts 10,000 years before Paul Atreides, with the formation of the Bene Gesserit, at least partly drawing from the Herbert/Anderson prequel "Sisterhood of Dune"
Glad to know I'm not the only one who thought Part 1 was better than Part 2
To me, I liked part 1 more. It had more of the trippy art- film nature that I think fit really well with the books. Part 2 had some of it but it felt more like a stock action-adventure block-buster.
Honestly your take that Paul is a villain is only barely beyond The superficial.
Level one is seeing him as a traditional hero in a traditional hero arc.
Level 2 is seeing that he is actually ultimately a dictator that oppresses humanity.
Level 3 is seeing that he's a tragic hero who made terrible sacrifices and choices for the betterment of humanity, and ultimately chooses to die rather than continue down the path that costs him his full humanity.
"Paul is actually a villain" is a cliff notes take on Dune that ignores any of the deeper philosophy of the books.
My only complaint was that the final assault scenes were too short, I hope there is an extended edition released one day with an additional 10mins of footage. It felt like a lot of build up for not quite enough pay off.
It's only shown for around a page in the book iirc
I was expecting some helms deep type battle and then it was already over in 5 mins.
Denis extended that sequence as much as he could. In the book is like 1 or 2 pages and that's it. For me, it was enough, it showed how unprepared the Emperor really was, and like Brandon explains here in the podcast, he was only holding the throne by a thread.
Denis also doesn't do Director's Cuts, his theatrical cuts are his final cuts, and everything left on the cutting room floor is there for a reason.
@@glass12the final attack is way more than 1 or 2 pages. The emperor's retinue preparing in his throne room with alia murdering the baron and Paul's forces breaking in all happens before the fight scene with feyd.
@@MR-TH-camChangedMyHandle We are talking about the assault scenes to the palace. The opener said it was too short and wanted more of an extended battle.
Indeed, the battle outside the palace is like one page in the book, nothing more. Herbert was focused more on the characters inside the palace.
I think the big thing was the omission of the spacing guild. Without that it doesnt make sense how paul gets off world, doesnt explain why the spacing guild was hiding the fact that their was life in the south of arrakis and their conspiracy to smuggle spice out of the south. Also Fenrings scenes being cut also upset me a bit even more when i heard tim blake nelson played him.
All they needed was Stilgar sending the spice bribe to the guild, and guild agents preventing the great houses from landing at the end.
Which would have been helped by the guild banker being at the dinner scene we lost in part 1
none of that is essential to the telling of the core themes of Dune
@@MrSmokinDragon I think knowing more about the space guild adds stakes that contribute to the themes. In the movie you kind of don't see the connection between spice and the ability for space travel to happen, so it's a little less clear why spice is important other than just being an addictive drug that can enable visions
@@DHass-nl4jz One of the first lines in the first movie is how spice makes interstellar travel possible
@@OzymandiasMDyeah but then it’s never really discussed or shown again. I just think that could have been more emphasized to add stakes
I enjoyed 1 more than 2 as well. I really like the mystery and world building of 1.
Hearing one great author I love talk about another great author I love is really cool.
I was screaming in agreement this entire video. Part Two is just about as good for me as it could be under its structural constraints, but I'll die sad about it. I would have loved to hear y'all go into more depth you how effective you thought more alterations were.
Christopher Walken was in the 94 biggie slim music video. weapon of choice. A song about Dune. Christopher Walken is a dancer.
The take you will hear often is finding people finding Dune 1 slow and boring but then being totally on board for Dune 2. FIRST time Ive heard Dune 2 being the slow one 😂😂
What timing that you guys talk about Dune Part 2 just as the Trailer for Dune Prophecy comes out lol
To the argument of showing restraint of sequel over $700 million: Nolan movies, I do not believe he owns the overall IP to inception, definitely wouldn't for Oppenheimer; E.T.; 2012; The Martian (close I think it was like 675 worldwide). But these are all obviously protected by the most popular and powerful directors in modern cinema (Emmerich is stretching that though) so the point is it's very few and far between. Dune part 3 will happen no matter who directs, for sure
What Ive read to date, the TV series is supposed to be based on "Sisterhood of Dune", which chronologically, comes after the Butlerian Jihad, Machine Crusade and Battle of Corrino.
The 1984 David Lynch dune navigator looks exactly as described in Frank Herbert’s book. Oh, I remember…. We want to rewrite Frank Herbert.
I must admit i was bummed about the change in the knife fight as well specially showcasing the mindgames and the scheming of the harkonnens like the barons plan with Rabban as a placeholder so that feyd is a saviour in arrakis eyes more obvious and i missed that Tim Blake Nelson was cut from the movie cause im pretty sure he was gonna be Count Fenrig and for a character that has like two scenes and four minutes of time im so certain he wouldve brought and Oscar worthy performance. He wouldve been absurdly good in that smallest of roles. But its a killer movie
Probably a rare exception, but E.T. grossed almost $800 million IN THE 80s...and although Spielberg was tempted at one point, a sequel/prequel hasn't come out yet. Though, this is talking about a movie from the greatest movie director so he's going to have much more power over these things than most directors.
I didn’t understand why they would attack the spice crawlers from underneath when they could just blast them from the side of the mountain tops. The first action, scene, where it showed Paul dodging the fire from the helicopter was a cool scene, but I felt like it didn’t make sense seeing that they could just shoot their blue lasers at them from the mountain tops and blow them up.
With regards to the heel turn and telegraphing that. I think they did a really good job telegraphing the change, but for the story to work you have to keep in tact the underlying monomyth structure and everything about that structure tells us that Paul is supposed to be the hero and messiah. The story is about mythic structures being used as weapons.
I was super disappointed in not having seen the navigators and that aspect of the book.we all know how important the guild is to the imperium.
I think its very important to the plot that we are introduced to them in part 3.
33:40 Titanic is the only thing that comes to mind. But it's kinda hard for a sequel when the titular aspect of the movie sinks under 13,000 feet of water.
Paul never really becomes a villain in the book. It’s more nuanced and I prefer that.
I am shocked at the absence of ice in Brandon's water glass. I thought it was little last episode, but this is shocking. (I assume it's the same day, recorded back to back.)
As someone who didn’t read the book, I think the fight at the end was powerful both emotionally and plot wise. I was on the edge of my seat in the movie theater thinking Paul was gonna die, especially when he gets stabbed and the camera zooms in on his face, I was ready to see him die because I’m so used to main characters dying now in media
They did put a little of something personal in the knife fight at the end, but it's quite subtle.
Paul being hit in the abdomen allowing him to give the killing strike is an echo of his fight against Gurney in the first movie.
It doesn't land very well thought. Still, I can be completely wrong and it's an accidental similitude.
How did that final line make me laugh so hard.
I duel was more personal in the book because Paul and Feyd were supposed to be Wed... And Feyd tells him, "You dance well." And I don't know why none of the 3 adaptations have done it?
It never occurred to him to make this into three movies because he's wanted to do Messiah as the third movie from the start. Making it into four movies total was just going to be out of the question.
Did we not see the navigators in Part I ? The scene where they announce that house atreidis has to go to arakis ? The guys with the helmets in which you only see spice fog?
Yes… they were there with their spice has filled helmes!
there is a mountain of footage, some few released, of more of the book. could I think easily add an hour to each $$$$ extended edition
I think the one example of Hollywood having restraint is maybe the Watchmen TV show. Beloved IP, well received season, even if the director walked i think a lot of other studios would have just made a second season regardless. HBO chose to accept Lindelof leaving, and closed the book on it.
I agree with Dan on this. I have never read the book and was so confused why Paul who was against everything, suddenly decided to drink the water. It felt very abrupt the change and not explained well in my opinion.
I think it actually suffered from being separated from Part 1 - I think when I watch them in sequence as one movie it will feel different. Part 1 builds the wood stack in the fire pit and Part 2 burns it.
I also thought that Feyd on dying could have really stuck a knife into Paul's guts with his last words being something like "Make us proud" - implying that war on the other houses is the most Harkonnen thing he could do and that seeing it would have Feyd's ghost grinning from ear to ear.
21:22 - Regarding Christopher Walkin, I couldn't agree with this take more. World-weary, decaying, and I'd add fragile.
One of the things which I thought was very weird was how when Paul have the Fremen, suddenly all the Harkonen and even Saudukar become practically worthless. In the first movie you see the Saudukar and harkonen fight in formations with skill, I think in the second movie you don't see the Saudukar fight much at all, the emperor's guard actually all die off-screen.
That doesn't show the Fremen are badass, it just gives them plot armor, there is no wyrding way of fighting or anything special, they win exclusively because no the Saudukar and Harkonen no longer does what they did in the first movie.
I only realized that he is the villain when he, without a second thought, orders the emperor's bodyguards to be executed.
With walken, for me I was a little underwhelmed, until the final few scenes when you see that last little bit of fight in the emperor. I think he was perfect as a once powerful ruler, watching it all slip away.
I too thought he was great, just tragically under-utilized.
I feel like his character was portrayed poorly, on purpose. The typical "let's make him an old white and dumb guy and show how it's HER [Irulan] who should have ruled all along". Same with the "let's make the southern Fremen the dumb religious folks while the Northern woman (Chani) tells what's up (breaking the "Show, don't tell" rule) in her typical American accent VERY uncharacteristic of a Fremen.
Would have loved to see Mads Mikkelsen as the emperor.
I don't care if it's not good, I don't care if it flops. I want to see general audiences react to a giant sandworm philosophizing and yeling "MONEO! Get my cart!" for 2-3 hours
God Emperor IMO is not as hard to adapt as people think. It would be hard if they adapt it literally and it's just 3 hours of monologue, but there's actually quite a lot of fascinating stuff that happened in those thousand of years during his rule.
Honestly... I read only the first book, and watched both movies... And I didn't even see that Paul became the villain xD
I was irritated by the rift between Chani and Paul in the movie, especially at the end, but I filed that under "someone wanted to do that for some non-apparent reason, disregarding the story" (which is a pretty full basket in movies lately..)
That Heel Turn was also the main issue I took with the first book (aside from discrepancies due to the author's era vs mine).
Not sure if anyone reads this comment, but that was my experience, so I guess one _could_ miss it^^
(Edit: To be clear, he was clearly not "the good guy" in my mind. But more of a Greek Tragedy Protagonist, not a Villain)
Doesn't the whole idea of "The Golden Path" really undercut the idea of Paul as a villain? I mean, spoiler alert, but the books indicate that Paul's problem is that he wants to avenge his father and make the Universe a more just place for his family and the Fremen, but the Jihad is a consequence of that and is out of his hands once he's gone far enough down that road, and that he's unwilling to push the Jihad far enough to put them on the "Golden Path" he foresees, because he's horrified by it, and he leaves that up to his son to finish for him. That puts him more in the "tragic hero" position as a reader, although from a complete outsider perspective he's essentially Ghengis Khan but with a personal ethic that's more understandable to our civilization.
I mean, the whole end of "The Golden Path" as I understand it is to make humans unable to be dominated by _anyone_ but that's part of what I like about Dune in the first place, the morality is really, really complex.
I would say the golden path undermines Lehto II as a villain. Paul doesn't have the guts to do it, can't make that sacrifice thus reinforcing him as a villain.
You sir are 100% correct, Thank you for mentioning it. I said as much in my comments as well.
Paul is Darth Vader, he had the chance to achieve the Golden Path but stumbled on the way.
Leto II is Luke, who managed to avoid the precipice Vader fell into.
@@glass12 Um, no. This misses the entire point of Dune Messiah, and Children of Dune...
Paul is not Darth Vader.
He saw the Golden Path and chose the "lesser of two evils" to save humanity, which required allowing evils to be done in his name. He became a figurehead, powerless in his own empire, with a government and religion springing up around him, (fueled by the revenge-obsessed Fremen and the Bene Gesserit Missionara Protectiva).
Paul spent his life trying to avoid the worst futures he saw, while staying on the Golden Path to humanity's survival. After a certain point, he even worked toward tearing down the false figurehead that the Fremen had created out of him, along with the government and religion surrounding him.
Leto is not Luke...
I don't even know where to begin... there is no comparison here.
Yea, it entirely justifies all his actions and means he’s not a villain. Really wish people would stop saying he is
My take is that the movies were divided to focus on Paul's three roles. Part 1 feels like the Atreides movie, while Part 2 focuses on his role as the Lisan al Gaib. Part 3 will be about Paul navigating the powers/perils of being the Kwisatz Haderach.
The casting of Christopher Walken to me was the same thing as when they cast Samuel L. Jackson as a Jedi. They're both such a singular character type outside the realm of the roles they were cast for.
"Ah sense a plot to destroy the Jedi...mutherf*cker!!"
The way y'all forgot lynch name is so funny
Dune 2 is immaculate, I don't know what you guys are on about 😂
Paul does lose a (practice) knife fight in the first movie. And he uses the same technique he lost to in that fight, to later win his fight against Feyd-Rautha.
No mention of the Syfi mini series 😢
Storywise the Sci-Fi channel version is still the best adaption of the book. Visually? Of course not. But the story is by far the best.
Brandon mentions it when talking about Paul's sister, around 24:20 or so.
I have to agree with Dan on this one. Having never read the book, what I saw was Paul seeing himself become the villain and fearing that, only to suddenly be super on board. Him becoming a villain wasn't the problem, it was that I didn't know why. But everything that happened after he embraced that was absolutely riveting.
I get that everyone will interprest things differently.
To me it seemed pretty clear:
It was signposted by the emperor that he felt leto was weak because he put love before duty
Paul resists the mantle of messiah until he is blindsided by feyd rautha Harkonnen's attack
Moreover, he sees that if he keeps fighting the way he does, Chani will die
So to save Chani, he becomes a villain (that chani cannot love) and embraces the false messianic mantle
also, interestingly, the movie has a structure where effectively, the climax stands at the midpoint, when Paul decides to become the lisan al Gaib, where the whole second half feels more like dominoes falling into place than the protagonist overcoming obstacles. The tension lowers throughout the ending, with a rather anticlimactic final battle.
I'm not sure how deliberate that is, but it feels like the writer and director don't want us to cheer to much at the end and make the battle underwhelming on purpose, conveying the inevitability granted by prescience, and resulting in something resembling a tragic 5 act structure more than an epic 3 act structure. The first part also culminated towards the midpoint, in the harkonnen attack and was more a journey towards the within after that, with smaller and smaller stakes throughout the last act, which I find interesting.
One line "I didn't see it coming" When feyd attacked helped me understand why he had to do it.
I think it's established early on that Paul is capable of both tenderness, empathy, compassion aswell as violence, coldness, vindictiveness so when the conflict between the Fremen and the Harkonnens reaches a boiling point with the destruction of Sietch Tabr, I felt that it makes sense for him to give into one of the 2 forces pulling at him throughout the story. He wasn't a "villain" at that point though but when he drinks the water of life he is filled with the pain and sorrow of all his male & female ancestors he begins to constantly live in the past and future all at once. All this combined with the revelation that he is part harkonnen, I felt it made sense to me but that being said, if it didn't hit for you then it didn't hit.
I think the TV-series Dune Prophecy is being based on Sisterhood Of Dune. If that is true then it's set about 10000 before the films.
I've tried to conceive a way to have included the Alia from the books in a movie, but I can't. Even if you spend a lot of time on it I have a hard time seeing it work in a movie. I love that part of the book, so it saddens me but I do understand why Villeneuve left it out.
I watched both parts this Sunday. I was watching the director's explanation of the sandworm riding scene. I liked the second part more than 1st. The only thing that bothers me is the fight between Feyd and Paul. Feyd was shown cheating fighter in the establishment scene while great fighter against Paul.
Great fighters can also cheat. It's not mutually exclusive.
In the establishing fight in the Gladiator scene, it is shown that given the chance, Feyd will fight against anyone on a plain field as he is driven by honor. That's why the Baron calls the undrugged Atreides "A Gift" because this is exactly what Feyd wants, a chance to prove himself without the protection that is given to him because it is the Na-Baron Harkonnen.
And… that was really good change!
4:25 Exactly. He chose to interpret Dune instead of adapt it. Great as the film is, Dune Part Two is not part two of Dune.
Maybe it was just my theater but there were moments where the special fx TANKED
legit segments that looked ripped out of killzone 2 for the ps3 ( potential spoiler: such as the scene towards the end where a guy in an aircraft is manning a turret)
Anybody else have similar thoughts?
Wait a second, is there not going to be a 3rd movie/conclusion to Paul's story arc? I thought for sure there was going to be a part 3.
That pun at the end was *chef's kiss*
The only reason the heel turn doesn’t work for me is because Paul’s first son doesn’t die in an attack. To me in the novel that was the catalyst that sent him south. That was the moment the story changed.
Dune II is an ABSOLUTE master class on the art of omission. SOOOO many huge part of the book were omitted and it still ran beauuutifully, to the point i started to marvel at the beauty of the ommissions themselve. (space guild's plots, jessica's "betrayal", Allya, poison knife, paul's kid, the old mentats, the attempted assassination on daddy Harkonen (actually pretty small thing, but big for me personally)). In the hands of any SLIGHTLY LESS capable hands, even a single one of these ommissions could've been catastrophic.