@cindybin2001 leaving a high demand religion because it’s a series of made up hokus pocus from a conman does not equate to smoking weed & drinking booze. Why are you in these comments?
Same here 40-plus years. I'm struggling with the aftermath of living my life according to church principles that were not right. Also the time wasted that I could have been with my children or family while I was whiling away the hours in the Temple wasting my time and accomplishing nothing. It makes for a lot of anger I am working with. Also I have one son still in that refuses to listen to anyone else.
I started seeing the truth when I was 40 and was totally out at 41-42. It is so frustrating knowing that I wasted half of my life under false pretenses.
Mike gives a great presentation! I noticed from watching all the LDS Discussions videos to date that he has difficulty answering Q's on the fly. One of the benefits of having a third person, like Nemo and others, on with John and Mike is it gives Mike more of a chance to think before answering (while other people are talking). If Mike doesn't have enough time to think he just gives a pat answer without any depth/ detail. Nemo is great at quick, well put together responses. I really like the episodes he's on. I'm EXTREMELY grateful to Mike for putting these LDS Discussions presentations together, to John for having these interviews and to everyone who comes on with Mike and John!!
Another great video! Love this team! Nemo is razor sharp in his summations and adds so much to these discussions! Congratulations on hitting the 90,000 milestone, onwards and upwards!
1:19:22 as a non-Mormon apologetics was one of the things that kept me in my high demand community as well and when my faith finally collapsed I was so depressed and felt I had nothing left to live for, perhaps I was going through some serious withdrawal symptoms when I finally stopped taking that drug and it wasn’t until I went to therapy and started taking medication when my mental health finally did improve
Thank you all ! WOW I can’t explain how helpful this podcast and series has been in helping me move beyond so many ingrained beliefs in my family that I had such a hard time understanding.
44 years to wake up. Thank you so much for opening my eyes., Anger subsiding after a few weeks. Now I have my son back who left 24 yrs ago after? we're not answered and he felt bad for asking?. Still searching 😢 Pomkioz
This podcast has made me think more about Joseph Smith's thought process than at any time that I was active in the church. I keep thinking about whether he ever had an "exit plan" or if not, why not - with the Kinderhook Plates, did he always feel like he'd be able to control or change the narrative as needed, or did he not care so long as he made it through the present crisis? - was it his hubris that kept getting to him? - did he really think there was something special about himself? - did he ever feel guilty? -it all fascinates me but also frustrates me to no end
@cindybin2001 I'm going to assume this is a troll account, but you caught me on a bad week, so here: I have been a member of the church for 29 years, served a full-time mission, taught at the MTC, held many callings including being a gospel doctrine teacher many times, been to the temple more times than I could ever count, attended and graduated from BYU, and when my faith crisis hit, I felt alone in the world for YEARS because I was frightened of trying to seek out others with experiences like mine, if such people even existed, because the church had taught me my whole life that "anti-mormons" were anywhere between clueless lost sheep and bloodthirsty deceivers. I almost gave myself a heart attack the first time I clicked on one of this channel's videos, just trying to see if maybe I wasn't so alone in the world after all. Take your unhelpful, uncharitable attitude and go somewhere else on TH-cam where you're more welcome.
I really wonder what would have happened if JS was not killed when he was... would the church have continued to grow or would it have imploded? Would they have gone to Utah at all? Brigham was the one that led them to become a huge monolith, especially because they were so geographically isolated in Utah.
Mike, I love what you are doing! Keep it up! I wanted to add my thoughts on your comment around 45:50 that the Charlotte Haven quote is questionable because "it was long after". The Kinderhook Plates were “discovered” April 23, 1843. The Charlotte's original letter was dated Tuesday, May 2, 1843. Her letter was later reprinted "long after" in December 1890, but she made her statement within a couple weeks of the Kinderhook plates "discovery".
I’m a never mo. I took a 3 month class in Mormonism in 1977. At that time the Kinderhook plates were absolutely trotted out as another example of Smith’s translation abilities.
@@randyjordan5521 same. Salamander letter was legit per Oaks. Same with Kinderhook plates. Legit. Actually- Both frauds. To me me this ties into the LDS lack of critical thinking skills - MLM capital, affinity fraud capital, etc.
@@randyjordan5521 crazy stuff. I witnessed the Jon C. Vasilacopulos diamond scam in Utah in 1984. Several of my LDS friends were swindled. Sad. One friend quit his job to work for him. He lost everything.
Around the 1:06 mark, Mike presents the following to demonstrate that the Church is still defending the Kinderhook plates as being genuine: 1961. "But, on the other hand, we have the fact before us, that the skeleton of the Pharaoh, found in Kinderhook, Illinois, referred to previously, was dug out of a large mound. After penetrating about eleven feet the workers came to a bed of limestone that had been subjected to the action of fire. They removed the stones, which were small and easy to handle, to the depth of two feet more, when they found the skeleton. This was evidently a burial chamber, as with the bones, which appeared to have been burned, was found plenty of charcoal and ashes. From this fact it is evident that some of the mounds are of very ancient date, as it is not supposable that this man would be the only one of his race and nation to be buried in this manner. We also suggest that this colony of Egyptians may have originated the style of architecture in this country in which so many find resemblances to the Egyptian, and which is specially characterized by the erection of vast truncated pyramids." (Commentary on the Book of Mormon, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah, vol VI, p 232) To add to the discussion, the following is also from the same commentary and points to the Kinderhook plates to support that the Jaredites were proficient in metallurgy, as claimed in the BofM: 1961. “THE JAREDITES AS METAL-WORKERS...Again the six bell-shaped brass plates found on the breast of the skeleton exhumed at Kinderhook, Illinois, already referred to, were fastened together, according to a writer in the Times and Seasons, by rings through each and clasped with two clasps. “The rings and clasps appeared to be of iron very much ozidated.” The Quincy Whig says they were "secured and fastened together by two iron wires, but which were so decayed that they readily crumbled to dust on being handled." (Commentary on the Book of Mormon, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah, vol VI, p 237)
I had never heard of them until recently, but no clue as to what they were. So glad to be officially out as of 11/3/2022. You are all wonderful - thank you for bringing so much information to everyone.
I'm a never-Mormon but I've always been fascinated with religions, particularly high-demand religions and their religious rituals; I think I found you guys originally through New Name Noah or similar several years ago? (And rediscovered you a few months ago!) Anyway, I binged this LDS Discussions series over the holidays and I am totally entranced by it. Such a great breakdown of all the innumerable issues with LDS truth claims, and these episodes about Smith's translations (or "translations") are especially fascinating to me. (In many ways, Joseph Smith was simply unlucky enough to do the same charismatic truth-stretching act all religious leaders do but in an era modern enough to have reliable historical records to later easily refute his claims, to a much greater degree than there were in the time of the Bronze Age Levant or historical Jesus or 600 CE Arabia or whatnot.) Great work, Mike and John and company!
I definitely have thought the same thing you have - "If the ancient religious figures were alive today, they'd all be debunked" - but I think Mormonism has a unique problem in that it tries to tie itself to a very specific history and archeology. The ancient leaders of the religions you're alluding to (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) developed over a longer period of time, sort of organically. It's easier to muddle history over centuries, rather than decades. I think there's definitely a parallel to be drawn, but it isn't *quite* a direct one.
@@1000huzzahs that’s very true-the first gospels weren’t compiled/written down/formalized until, what, at least 50ish years after the death of Jesus of Nazareth? Obviously there would have been oral stories told before then, but it was more diffuse! I think Islam and the Quran are a little more immediate IIRC (or at least that’s what some Islamic apologism I’ve seen puts forth as a reason why Muhammad was the real deal) but I could easily be wrong there. It’s all fascinating to me regardless :D
About 1:50:00 in, Mike and John are discussing how busy JS was around that time as a possible reason that we do not have more of the kinderhook plates translated. To add to that discussion, here are my thought from when I looked into this: First, the partial translation documented by William Clayton, Joseph Smith’s recorder and scribe, is evidence that Joseph Smith did try to translate at least a portion of the plates. The public excitement about the Kinderhook plates, the multiple witnesses that saw Joseph Smith examine the Kinderhook Plates and compare the symbols with the symbols in his GAEL, the public expectation of a full translation of the plates in the future, and the absence of a denial by Joseph Smith that the partial translation attributed to him came from him are all strong indicators that Joseph Smith did, in fact, provide the partial translation of the plates recorded by Clayton. Second, it took Joseph Smith 7 years to complete the translation of the BofA from the papyri. During those 7 years, there are periods of time in the historical record where there is no mention of work being done on the BofA translation. The lack of mention of work during those periods does not indicate that Joseph had “lost interest in” or had a “stupor of thought” regarding the BofA translation but is likely due to Joseph’s priorities being shifted to other things; therefore, leaving him unable to focus on the BofA translation. It took Joseph 7 years but, in the end, he published a full “translation” of the BofA in 1842, 2 years before he was killed and about 1 year before the Kinderhook plates were “found”. After the BofA was published, Joseph still had the papyri that contained “the Writings of Joseph of Egypt” that he had not translated. Did Joseph have a “stupor of thought” associated with the Writings of Joseph of Egypt as well? Lack of mention of work on the Kinderhook plates does not mean that Joseph “lost interest in” or had a “stupor of thought” regarding the Kinderhook plates translation but is likely an indication that his priorities were on other things and he was unable to dedicate time to the translation. Joseph was killed 14 months after the Kinderhook plates were “found”. During his final 14 months, Joseph: ---led the LDS Church as its Prophet, Seer, and Revelator ---led the city of Nauvoo as Mayor ---led the Nauvoo Legion as a Lieutenant General of the Legion ---petitioned Congress to make Nauvoo an independent territory with the right to call out federal troops in its defense ---was arrested by Sheriff Joseph H. Reynolds and Constable Harmon T. Wilson on the charge of treason against the state of Missouri ---ran for President of the United States suspending regular church proselytizing and sending out the Quorum of the Twelve and hundreds of other political missionaries to promote his candidacy ---organized the Council of Fifty and ordained the council to be the governing body of the world, with himself as chairman, Prophet, Priest, and King over the Council and the world ---publicly denied that he was practicing polygamy ---illegally ordered the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor which publicly exposed his practice of polygamy ---refused to submit to the Hancock County Justice of the Peace for arrest for the illegal destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor and instead declared martial law in Nauvoo and deployed the Nauvoo Legion to defend the city with military force ---fled across the Mississippi River to avoid being arrested by Governor Ford and the state militia which had been organized to arrest Joseph Smith after he refused arrest by the Hancock County Justice of the Peace and deployed the Nauvoo Legion ---ultimately returned and surrendered to Governor Ford and the state militia ---was charged with treason against Illinois ---and, was subsequently taken to Carthage jail where he was later killed by a mob. Considering everything that was happening in the final 14 months of his life, is there really any question as to why a “full translation” of the Kinderhook plates did not occur before Joseph was killed? Maybe, if Joseph had had another 7 years, he might have produced a full translation of both “the Writings of Joseph of Egypt” and the Kinderhook plates. So, is lack of a full translation of the Kinderhook plates evidence that Joseph was not fooled and did not intend to translate them? No.
Im 50 and live in Houston, But my parents converted in 1966 in Mexico so I was born mormon you can say , (I remember when I was a child we asked the missionaries about poligamy in the church and they always denied it said it was just a lie to attack the only true church, now im sure my parents would have never converted if they knew Poligamy existed in the early mormon Church, the Church has been dishonest for long time) I went thru the whole process, seminar, young adult, mission, but I never undesrtood poligamy and the temple rituals, I did not marry in the temple cuz always felt inside me that was not from God, your podcast along with pesquisas mormonas in Spanish, has helped me be more confident and convinced of stopped going to the corporation of the President blablabla, cuz your famiy members and relatives alwas condemn you saying you will come back humiliated with the tail in between your legs for leaving the church, so far I have been so happy and I still prosper after 7 years.Thank you guys for your amazing work!
I truly wonder what went through Joseph's head when he saw these plates. He went to enormous efforts with the gold plates. He knew the gold plates were a farce, but then... BAM! There are these plates that he didn't make and that might give strength to the fraud he was creating. He must have had a moment where he was like, "Holy shit! I really AM a prophet!" And then it all crumbled around him. I've always found the Kinderhook plates fascinating.
16:29 Joseph was confident in the actual reality of papyri and Kinderhook plates because those things are tangible. Joseph was so careful to keep gold plates secret because they were never real/what he claimed they were.
Moving away from mormonisn doesn't end the ordeal. As you progress, you may get to know other truths that will kick you in the heart about religion. What will you do when you come to the realization that the Europeans altered the Bible, made Jesus a Whiteman. The inhabitants of Jerusalem and the surroundings were dark skin (black people), not white. It is this knowledge that pushed Joseph Smith to invent his own scriptures. Note. The present day White Jews reject that they Once lived in Egypt. They, jews, reject Jesus because he was not like them. Jesus was black. That is why the romans rejected and handed him over to jews to be killed. It was prophesied, his coming, but a black man showed up. That disappointed the people. Religion, as explained by the Romans and Greeks, leaves much to be desired. The problem is not Mormonism nor Joe Smith. Rather truth as told by the early Europeans.
I love this team and this format! I now wish that once you’re done with the problematic parts of LDS church history (granted, this may take a while) that you could tackle other world religions. I learn so much from this series and Mormon Stories in general!
I absolutely love what Mike said about faith. Faith is belief in something you can't see or confirm. Faith is NOT belief IN SPITE of what you can see and confirm. I'm an ex-christian and this absolutely applies to our "faith" too. I've learned so much from these LDS Discussions and from Derek Lambert's TH-cam channel Mythvision about all the ways the Bible was written, where the stories came from, who the books were written by, and when they were written and how easily there could have been mistakes in the copies of the copies of the copies that were written over centuries......it's so obvious to me now that there's no way to just "have faith" that the Bible is true either.
Christians do not "just have faith" that the Bible is true. We have mountains of evidence for the historocity of the Bible, unlike the uniquely LDS "scripture." "There could have been mistakes" is not the same as actually having mistakes.
If Joseph Smith suspected the Kinderhook plates were a fraud, I don't understand why he couldn't just say, "These aren't real. God is telling me these are fake" instead of feeling like he had to play along and begin to "translate" them. Wouldn't that have given him greater credibility to have said, "I've seen the real thing and these are not that"? That seems safer than pretending to translate something he suspected were a fraud.
Well, remember that this is Nauvoo period Joseph. He might be able to smell the fake, but as Mike calls out, he may not be able to help himself. Edit: Also he might have suspected the kinderhook plates were fake, but he also couldn't for certain, so if claimed they were fake and then there were later authenticated, even falsly, by some other source, it would cast doubt on his abilities/power, which he needs to be careful about because all his credibility is built and resting on said abilities and powers. I do agree that his smartest move would've been something like, "God is silent on this matter, so it is likely a non-religous and/or irrelevant text." or something in that vein, but as they say hindsight is 20/20.
“The first dated appearance of the title "pharaoh" being attached to a ruler's name occurs in Year 17 of Siamun (tenth century BCE) on a fragment from the Karnak Priestly Annals, a religious document.” - Wikipedia
This last summer I stopped by Kinderhook, IL and not too much further down the highway went to the Mound of Zelph, the White Lamanite. Kinderhook is not a big place. Zelph's Mound was more of an Indiana Jones type of adventure to get to. If you've been there during a warm summer, you know what I mean.
It is off hwy 36 on the northside and west of the Illinois River. 240 3725 E, Griggsville, IL 62340. On google maps its called NAPLES RUSSELL MOUND 8. There is a parking area trail head on the north west corner off 300th Ave. Also a parking area on the east side off 470th Street. I would caution driving from the north west parking lot on 300th to 470th St. We were in an SUV and had trouble getting through there. Its a dirt road that falls into a ravine. Had we slipped off I dont think we would have been found for a very long time. Wear a bug net on your head. Good luck. @@Jenin_Joy
It never occurred to me before listening to this episode that Joseph Smith may have been pressured by some members into translating the Egyptian scrolls and the Kinderhook Plates. If he refused his ability to translate would be called into question. I wonder if some of the times the early Church moved was to leave behind those who no longer believed he was a prophet or the people who could tell stories about him like his treasure digging. It would be really fascinating for someone to analyze the movements of the Saints with leaving behind people who no longer believe so the new converts won't hear their stories. I know the Whitmer clan (along with Oliver Cowdery) were left behind and I think later many of the Kirkland Saints were left behind. And then many after the bank failure. I'm sure the unbelievers were much less motivated to follow than the believers (who were sadly willing to literally give up everything, even their lives, to follow 😔).
@@randyjordan5521 i think it had a lot to do with polygamy as well, especially as they were grooming and stealing peoples young (teen) daughters and luring them away from their families to become 3rd & 4th wives to old(er) men. this would light a fire under any father, and all anyone had to do was organize people who were mad at the mormons for any of the above reasons and any of those fathers would be bloodthirsty and willing to do anything.
My RS President kept asking me to share my concerns, and when I finally did, providing proof, she dismissed me. Like I told her that there are court records of Joseph Smith being arrested for treasure hunting and she said, “Oh, I don’t believe that happened.” I said, “But there’s actual legal records.” “I don’t believe that happened.” 😡😤 wtf that’s when I stopped believing she really cared to hear my thoughts.
@@randyjordan5521 thanks for the link. I will gladly check out your due diligence even if Cindy can’t or won’t face the truth that her beloved church is based on lies. I’ve been catching up on Mormon Stories today & Cindy is allllllllll over the place trolling with complete abandon. A lot of it is “you left because you want to smoke weed & get drunk” garbage. Whatchya gonna do? It’s way too predictable
The only real option Joseph Smith has with these is to declare them fake, it actually increases his credibility, cause he can say things like "I've seen real ones, and they don't look like this"
it's funny that he even goes along with the Book of Abraham or Kinder Hook Plates translations at all bc he wrote into the BoM that there wouldn't be any more translation after that, so he could have just said, sorry that's all God gave me guys. he was covered by that in the BoM but there was probably a lot of social pressure to produce something.
Best commeont on Ol' Joe's reluctance to translate the Kinderhook Plates comes from Henry of Last Podcast On The Left : "you've got to be kidding me. I invented this scam."
I keep thinking back to that awful "This Is The Show" episode where they addressed the Kinderhook Plates. They kept joking about how it was all a fraud, and there's no WAY Joseph would've translated it! Seeing that that only became the final the word of the church AFTER it was shown to be a forgery gives it all a "We have always been at war with Eastasia" vibe.
Around 1:48:00 John asks mike about the source that links the GAEL with the Kinderhook plates. Here are some sources: Sunday May 7, 1843, Joseph Smith’s secretary, Willard Richards, recorded the following about Joseph Smith in Joseph Smith's journal: “Forenoon visited by several gentlemen concerning the plates which were dug out of a mound near Quincy sent by William Smith to the office for his Hebrew Bible and Lexicon”. (Journal, December 1842-June 1844; Book 2, 10 March 1843-14 July 1843, Page 195 - Joseph Smith Papers) The lexicon referred to is Joseph’s Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language [aka GAEL], a translation cross-reference tool JS created during his now discredited BofA translation from the Egyptian papyri he possessed. The LDS church acknowledges this reference is to the GAEL in the Joseph Smith Papers Project: “The following spring, six brass plates were dug out of an Indian burial mound near Kinderhook, Illinois, and brought to Nauvoo, Illinois, for JS to translate. One of the men who unearthed the plates had manufactured them and planted them in a mound to deceive local Mormons. According to one source, JS looked at the plates and then ‘compared them . . . with his Egyptian alphabet,’ an apparent reference to the Grammar and Alphabet volume.” (Historical Introduction, Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language, circa July-circa November 1835 - Joseph Smith Papers) Sunday, May 7, 1843, a letter was written by one of the participants in the May 7, 1843 visit recorded by Willard Richards. The letter was later printed as an annex to an article in the New York Herald’s May 30th 1843 publication. The letter confirms the excitement about the Kinderhook Plates discovery, that Joseph Smith compared the symbols on the Kinderhook Plates with the symbols in the GAEL, that the symbols were determined to be similar, and that there was an expectation of a full translation of the Kinderhook Plates in the future. The participant in the meeting wrote: “Another set of plates have been found in Pike county, in the State; they were dug out of a large mound, fifteen feet from the summit, by a company of persons, fifteen in number, who all affirm to the fact of their situation when found. There were six in number, about three inches in length, and two and a half broad at one end, and one inch broad at the other, being something of the form of a bell, about the sixteenth of an inch thick, with a hold in the small end of each, fastened together with a ring, apparently of iron or steel, but which was so oxidised as to crumble to pieces when handled. The plates are evidently brass, and are covered on both sides with hieroglyphics. They were brought up and shown to Joseph Smith. He compared them in my presence with his Egyptian alphabet…and they are evidently the same characters. He therefore will be able to decipher them. There can be no doubt but they are a record of some kind, buried with an individual, centuries ago...You may expect something remarkably pretty soon.” (New York Herald, May 30th 1843 page 2 column 3) “It is important to recognize that the spine of the notebook containing Smith’s GAEL is labeled ‘Egyptian Alphabet.’” (Kinderhook Plates: TIMELINE OF IMPORTANT EVENTS - Mormon Stories)
@@randyjordan5521 Don't forget about Zelph, the white lamanite "warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains."
@@randyjordan5521 What is the source for "an old Nephite tower" in Missouri? I don't remember seeing that reference before. I am aware of, “wandering over the plains of the Nephites” (Joseph Smith, Letter to Emma Smith, 4 June 1834) and As the LDS men marched across Illinois during Zion's Camp in 1834 and in Missouri, “The camp passed through Huntsville, in Randolph County, which has been appointed as one of the stakes of Zion, and is the ancient site of the City of Manti," (Millennial Star, vol. 16, p. 296. Also see: Alma 58:1, 13, 25, 27-28, 39)
@@randyjordan5521 I think I may have found the original source for the Nephite tower reference: "...who lives at the foot of Tower Hill, a name appropriated by Prest smith, in consequence of the remains of an old Nephitish Alter an Tower,..." ("Journal, March-September 1838," p. 43, The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed January 12, 2023)
Funny how J. Smith supposedly found the golden plates, which he hid from everyone, but the Book of Abraham and the Kinderhook plates he wanted everyone to see those.
they address that in this video or the ones on BoA... he becomes more bold and brazen as his power grows... but also he doesn't have any control over either of those because they were brought to him by outside sources and his people were pressuring him to produce translations that would prove BoM true... i'm sure he was under a lot of social pressure.
@@randyjordan5521 agreed. Immense social pressure to perform because they believed his lie so thoroughly and were convinced these other sources would prove it.
What if LDS apologists were to assert that all the missing answers were contained in the Kinderhook Plates which Joseph was unable to finish channeling due to that mob in Carthage?
I would think that Joseph Smith would be highly skeptical of there being an authentic new set of buried plates (Kinderhook) if he had the perfect knowledge that there really was no previous set of plates containing the Book of Mormon. Rather, he would wonder just who's trying to cash in on one of his original schticks.
Interesting question. I think we are conditioned to believe what we believe whatever environment we are raised in. There are always beliefs that we have, true or untrue, based on what we were taught in our formative years. It is the basis of our understanding of ourselves and the world and it's scary to move away from that. I want to say i'd prefer a secular upbringing because it seems more neutral, but it probably isn't in all honesty, and it definitely depends on the exact situation and how dogmatic the parents are about whatever belief they hold... i think as long as the parents raise more open-minded, inquisitive, investigative children and teach them to always seek truth and ask questions... that's what matters more than what belief system they are raised in....
In the section where you were comparing the heiroglyphic signs: those are completely different. The top one is a boat, the bottom is a reed basket. While both can represent sounds, the basket is part of the standard egyptian alphabet. Take away the fact that he thought signs represented paragraphs of text, just mixing those 2 up is a major red flag. This is basic heiroglyphic translation knowledge
I am persuaded by all your analysis, and your general observations about the B.H. Roberts quote. However, I think Roberts does make a potentially valid argument when he observes that no one else associated with the hoax has come forward to support Fugate in the nearly 40 years when they could have done so. This was a legitimate argument at the time he made it. Of course he was ultimately proven to be wrong when the scientific analysis proved the plates were fakes. But you have to give him his due.
A better football analogy would be that they indeed get into the end zone, spike the football as a score, and then the play is called back by a penalty flag being thrown.
How come it's like there's not a whole lot of...life history about Brigham Young? How deep was he in the translation. And documents n covenants n nefarious tactics n cruelty was B Young involved in? The actual early leaders need talked about more unless I missed it. Congrats on more subs. Are you possibly going to do a handful of conversations about Brigham Young n how n why he hooked up with Jos. Smith and any good true family gossip n info like a 60 Minutes report but like Your way which means Info n plenty of it for us infidels and heathens. 😁
40:00 Reminds me of the other seer that went with Joseph to help him find the gold plates. That guy looks at the rock in the hat and asks Joseph if he can see the spectacles buried with the plates and Joseph says he cannot. It's not until the magical 3rd time of asking that Joseph is forced to claim that he can see them and that was the creation of the urim and thummim. Or when Hiram Page starts receiving revelations through a seer stone and Joseph couldn't just say, "that's fake," so he had to say they were real revelations but from the devil. People knowingly and unknowingly used Joseph's own game against him lots of times, but the genius of Joseph was surrounding himself with people he could manipulate so he was able to control the narrative as ridiculous as he made it.
at that time? what about now? church is pretty big... i know they try to downplay this stuff but it's out there so my mind is blown that anyone can believe it at all... i do realize there are a lot of extraneous cultural and familial factors at this point that make it so difficult to walk away even without belief. It looks like both Mike and Nemo are still officially "members" of the church even tho they have actively, demonstrably disproved the truth claims in every way.
The LDS Discussion episodes are great but I'd recommend you stop claiming you are trying to be balanced and unbiased or that you are simply presenting information in a neutral way. I don't think you are. If you step back and listen, you'll likely see you can't really claim this. For example calling apologetic responses 'completely ridiculous' is a non-neutral value judgement. I'm not saying I disagree with your judgements. IMO, you just can't call such assertions 'balanced, neutral and/or unbiased.' To continue to claim any semblance of neutrality undermines your credibility and throws your own self-awareness in to question. Maybe just give up that assertion. My 2 cents.
Why didn't Joseph Smith publish the text like he did with the book of Abraham of Book of Mormon? Well, because he didn't actually translate them. At most he gave a passing comment and nothing more.
Becca, I’m stuck on why he’s able to “translate a portion” if they were totally bogus. That doesn’t sound like scholarly interest, that sounds like he’s straight up lying about what he’s “reading”. It sounds to me Joseph Smith didn’t know for sure if they authentic or not but also didn’t want others to know he didn’t know. In either case, pretending to translate is pretty sus and a proven lie.
@@beccakerby1208 obviously this argument is unproductive, but you are saying he never explicitly said he thought they were genuine.. did he ever explicitly say they were not? what he did say indicates he believes they are, since he purported to know what they were about. I just don't understand where you're coming up with your assertion that he knew they were a fraud when he never said that? He began something he called translation, he said he knew what they were about, he gave a summary. What more do you want? you can't say that he believed they were fake because he never said they were authentic but ignore the fact that he never said they were fake and everything he said attested in a belief that they were real and he knew what they said. What you're saying doesn't make sense. He never explicitly stated if they were or were not authentic. that is true (that we know of). But we can look at what he did say to determine that he was at least speaking to everyone around him as if he believed them to be authentic. There is just no way around it.
Love the content. But Mike you say "ummm" every few seconds. I counted dozens of times of 'ummm' in a few minutes. Please Nemo says these beautiful pensive statements, John has this great voice and an excellent DJ and comes across and calm and sincere. Mike just stop saying "umm" "umm" "ummm" it becomes too much. Besides that, you three make an excellent presentation.
I understand the "Abrahamic" texts are a mistranslation of an Ancient Egyptian text called "The Book of Coming Forth By Day," a religious book intended to guide the dead through the underworld.
40 years, believing the lies, so glad and happy to put the church far behind me,
They knew they were lies. That's Fraud . I would love to see them in the same jail as Bernie Madoff.
@cindybin2001 leaving a high demand religion because it’s a series of made up hokus pocus from a conman does not equate to smoking weed & drinking booze. Why are you in these comments?
Same here 40-plus years. I'm struggling with the aftermath of living my life according to church principles that were not right. Also the time wasted that I could have been with my children or family while I was whiling away the hours in the Temple wasting my time and accomplishing nothing. It makes for a lot of anger I am working with. Also I have one son still in that refuses to listen to anyone else.
I started seeing the truth when I was 40 and was totally out at 41-42. It is so frustrating knowing that I wasted half of my life under false pretenses.
@@schrecksekunde2118 “It’s Easier to Fool People Than It Is to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled.” - Mark Twain
“Faith is the belief in what you can’t see or you can’t know. It is NOT belief in spite of what you can see”
Brilliantly said Mike!
Mike gives a great presentation! I noticed from watching all the LDS Discussions videos to date that he has difficulty answering Q's on the fly. One of the benefits of having a third person, like Nemo and others, on with John and Mike is it gives Mike more of a chance to think before answering (while other people are talking). If Mike doesn't have enough time to think he just gives a pat answer without any depth/ detail.
Nemo is great at quick, well put together responses. I really like the episodes he's on.
I'm EXTREMELY grateful to Mike for putting these LDS Discussions presentations together, to John for having these interviews and to everyone who comes on with Mike and John!!
Great analysis and I completely agree! I really enjoy hearing the thoughts of all three gentlemen.
Another great video! Love this team! Nemo is razor sharp in his summations and adds so much to these discussions! Congratulations on hitting the 90,000 milestone, onwards and upwards!
1:19:22 as a non-Mormon apologetics was one of the things that kept me in my high demand community as well and when my faith finally collapsed I was so depressed and felt I had nothing left to live for, perhaps I was going through some serious withdrawal symptoms when I finally stopped taking that drug and it wasn’t until I went to therapy and started taking medication when my mental health finally did improve
40 years and I am ready to step away!
Thank you all ! WOW I can’t explain how helpful this podcast and series has been in helping me move beyond so many ingrained beliefs in my family that I had such a hard time understanding.
Great information!!! Thank you. I could never figure out the KHP from reading, never understood, but you three made it crystal clear.
Another home run, all 3 of you are great peeps...keep going, it means a lot to all of us!
This series is by far the best thing to come out of Mormon Stories.
There's a lot of good stuff
I’m literally watching this instead of conference 😂
Congrats on nearly 100k subscribers! Been following you since 40k!
44 years to wake up. Thank you so much for opening my eyes., Anger subsiding after a few weeks. Now I have my son back who left 24 yrs ago after? we're not answered and he felt bad for asking?. Still searching 😢 Pomkioz
This podcast has made me think more about Joseph Smith's thought process than at any time that I was active in the church. I keep thinking about whether he ever had an "exit plan" or if not, why not - with the Kinderhook Plates, did he always feel like he'd be able to control or change the narrative as needed, or did he not care so long as he made it through the present crisis? - was it his hubris that kept getting to him? - did he really think there was something special about himself? - did he ever feel guilty? -it all fascinates me but also frustrates me to no end
@cindybin2001 I'm going to assume this is a troll account, but you caught me on a bad week, so here: I have been a member of the church for 29 years, served a full-time mission, taught at the MTC, held many callings including being a gospel doctrine teacher many times, been to the temple more times than I could ever count, attended and graduated from BYU, and when my faith crisis hit, I felt alone in the world for YEARS because I was frightened of trying to seek out others with experiences like mine, if such people even existed, because the church had taught me my whole life that "anti-mormons" were anywhere between clueless lost sheep and bloodthirsty deceivers. I almost gave myself a heart attack the first time I clicked on one of this channel's videos, just trying to see if maybe I wasn't so alone in the world after all.
Take your unhelpful, uncharitable attitude and go somewhere else on TH-cam where you're more welcome.
I really wonder what would have happened if JS was not killed when he was... would the church have continued to grow or would it have imploded? Would they have gone to Utah at all? Brigham was the one that led them to become a huge monolith, especially because they were so geographically isolated in Utah.
Mike, I love what you are doing! Keep it up!
I wanted to add my thoughts on your comment around 45:50 that the Charlotte Haven quote is questionable because "it was long after".
The Kinderhook Plates were “discovered” April 23, 1843.
The Charlotte's original letter was dated Tuesday, May 2, 1843. Her letter was later reprinted "long after" in December 1890, but she made her statement within a couple weeks of the Kinderhook plates "discovery".
I’m a never mo. I took a 3 month class in Mormonism in 1977. At that time the Kinderhook plates were absolutely trotted out as another example of Smith’s translation abilities.
They definitely "rode that horse" as long as they felt they could, didn't they 😂
@@randyjordan5521 same. Salamander letter was legit per Oaks. Same with Kinderhook plates. Legit. Actually- Both frauds.
To me me this ties into the LDS lack of critical thinking skills - MLM capital, affinity fraud capital, etc.
@@randyjordan5521 crazy stuff. I witnessed the Jon C. Vasilacopulos diamond scam in Utah in 1984. Several of my LDS friends were swindled. Sad. One friend quit his job to work for him. He lost everything.
@@theflaterfapologist99Mike keeps saying, “You can’t have it both ways”. Unless, apparently, you’re dealing with TSCC.
The comment about spiking the football was amazing 😂
Around the 1:06 mark, Mike presents the following to demonstrate that the Church is still defending the Kinderhook plates as being genuine:
1961. "But, on the other hand, we have the fact before us, that the skeleton of the Pharaoh, found in Kinderhook, Illinois, referred to previously, was dug out of a large mound. After penetrating about eleven feet the workers came to a bed of limestone that had been subjected to the action of fire. They removed the stones, which were small and easy to handle, to the depth of two feet more, when they found the skeleton. This was evidently a burial chamber, as with the bones, which appeared to have been burned, was found plenty of charcoal and ashes. From this fact it is evident that some of the mounds are of very ancient date, as it is not supposable that this man would be the only one of his race and nation to be buried in this manner. We also suggest that this colony of Egyptians may have originated the style of architecture in this country in which so many find resemblances to the Egyptian, and which is specially characterized by the erection of vast truncated pyramids." (Commentary on the Book of Mormon, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah, vol VI, p 232)
To add to the discussion, the following is also from the same commentary and points to the Kinderhook plates to support that the Jaredites were proficient in metallurgy, as claimed in the BofM:
1961. “THE JAREDITES AS METAL-WORKERS...Again the six bell-shaped brass plates found on the breast of the skeleton exhumed at Kinderhook, Illinois, already referred to, were fastened together, according to a writer in the Times and Seasons, by rings through each and clasped with two clasps. “The rings and clasps appeared to be of iron very much ozidated.” The Quincy Whig says they were "secured and fastened together by two iron wires, but which were so decayed that they readily crumbled to dust on being handled." (Commentary on the Book of Mormon, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah, vol VI, p 237)
Mike you are really the GOAT. But Nemo is just as amazing
why aren’t there shorts on IG from this series? so many gems
This reminds me alot about the Hoffman papers
I had never heard of them until recently, but no clue as to what they were. So glad to be officially out as of 11/3/2022. You are all wonderful - thank you for bringing so much information to everyone.
Our pleasure!
@cindybin2001 Cindy it is time for you to go. Watch Midnight Mormons. Your trolling is tedious & achieves the opposite of what you think.
@cindybin2001 nobody cares what you think.
I'm a never-Mormon but I've always been fascinated with religions, particularly high-demand religions and their religious rituals; I think I found you guys originally through New Name Noah or similar several years ago? (And rediscovered you a few months ago!) Anyway, I binged this LDS Discussions series over the holidays and I am totally entranced by it. Such a great breakdown of all the innumerable issues with LDS truth claims, and these episodes about Smith's translations (or "translations") are especially fascinating to me. (In many ways, Joseph Smith was simply unlucky enough to do the same charismatic truth-stretching act all religious leaders do but in an era modern enough to have reliable historical records to later easily refute his claims, to a much greater degree than there were in the time of the Bronze Age Levant or historical Jesus or 600 CE Arabia or whatnot.) Great work, Mike and John and company!
Same with me. Totally have a mild obsession with all this stuff as a never mo. My ex LDS wife is so perplexed by my fascination.
I definitely have thought the same thing you have - "If the ancient religious figures were alive today, they'd all be debunked" - but I think Mormonism has a unique problem in that it tries to tie itself to a very specific history and archeology. The ancient leaders of the religions you're alluding to (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) developed over a longer period of time, sort of organically. It's easier to muddle history over centuries, rather than decades. I think there's definitely a parallel to be drawn, but it isn't *quite* a direct one.
@@1000huzzahs that’s very true-the first gospels weren’t compiled/written down/formalized until, what, at least 50ish years after the death of Jesus of Nazareth? Obviously there would have been oral stories told before then, but it was more diffuse! I think Islam and the Quran are a little more immediate IIRC (or at least that’s what some Islamic apologism I’ve seen puts forth as a reason why Muhammad was the real deal) but I could easily be wrong there. It’s all fascinating to me regardless :D
This series is great!!
2:02:06 Mike’s thoughts on Faith here should be made into one of your shorts.
About 1:50:00 in, Mike and John are discussing how busy JS was around that time as a possible reason that we do not have more of the kinderhook plates translated.
To add to that discussion, here are my thought from when I looked into this:
First, the partial translation documented by William Clayton, Joseph Smith’s recorder and scribe, is evidence that Joseph Smith did try to translate at least a portion of the plates. The public excitement about the Kinderhook plates, the multiple witnesses that saw Joseph Smith examine the Kinderhook Plates and compare the symbols with the symbols in his GAEL, the public expectation of a full translation of the plates in the future, and the absence of a denial by Joseph Smith that the partial translation attributed to him came from him are all strong indicators that Joseph Smith did, in fact, provide the partial translation of the plates recorded by Clayton.
Second, it took Joseph Smith 7 years to complete the translation of the BofA from the papyri. During those 7 years, there are periods of time in the historical record where there is no mention of work being done on the BofA translation. The lack of mention of work during those periods does not indicate that Joseph had “lost interest in” or had a “stupor of thought” regarding the BofA translation but is likely due to Joseph’s priorities being shifted to other things; therefore, leaving him unable to focus on the BofA translation. It took Joseph 7 years but, in the end, he published a full “translation” of the BofA in 1842, 2 years before he was killed and about 1 year before the Kinderhook plates were “found”. After the BofA was published, Joseph still had the papyri that contained “the Writings of Joseph of Egypt” that he had not translated. Did Joseph have a “stupor of thought” associated with the Writings of Joseph of Egypt as well? Lack of mention of work on the Kinderhook plates does not mean that Joseph “lost interest in” or had a “stupor of thought” regarding the Kinderhook plates translation but is likely an indication that his priorities were on other things and he was unable to dedicate time to the translation.
Joseph was killed 14 months after the Kinderhook plates were “found”. During his final 14 months, Joseph:
---led the LDS Church as its Prophet, Seer, and Revelator
---led the city of Nauvoo as Mayor
---led the Nauvoo Legion as a Lieutenant General of the Legion
---petitioned Congress to make Nauvoo an independent territory with the right to call out federal troops in its defense
---was arrested by Sheriff Joseph H. Reynolds and Constable Harmon T. Wilson on the charge of treason against the state of Missouri
---ran for President of the United States suspending regular church proselytizing and sending out the Quorum of the Twelve and hundreds of other political missionaries to promote his candidacy
---organized the Council of Fifty and ordained the council to be the governing body of the world, with himself as chairman, Prophet, Priest, and King over the Council and the world
---publicly denied that he was practicing polygamy
---illegally ordered the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor which publicly exposed his practice of polygamy
---refused to submit to the Hancock County Justice of the Peace for arrest for the illegal destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor and instead declared martial law in Nauvoo and deployed the Nauvoo Legion to defend the city with military force
---fled across the Mississippi River to avoid being arrested by Governor Ford and the state militia which had been organized to arrest Joseph Smith after he refused arrest by the Hancock County Justice of the Peace and deployed the Nauvoo Legion
---ultimately returned and surrendered to Governor Ford and the state militia
---was charged with treason against Illinois
---and, was subsequently taken to Carthage jail where he was later killed by a mob.
Considering everything that was happening in the final 14 months of his life, is there really any question as to why a “full translation” of the Kinderhook plates did not occur before Joseph was killed? Maybe, if Joseph had had another 7 years, he might have produced a full translation of both “the Writings of Joseph of Egypt” and the Kinderhook plates. So, is lack of a full translation of the Kinderhook plates evidence that Joseph was not fooled and did not intend to translate them? No.
Im 50 and live in Houston, But my parents converted in 1966 in Mexico so I was born mormon you can say , (I remember when I was a child we asked the missionaries about poligamy in the church and they always denied it said it was just a lie to attack the only true church, now im sure my parents would have never converted if they knew Poligamy existed in the early mormon Church, the Church has been dishonest for long time) I went thru the whole process, seminar, young adult, mission, but I never undesrtood poligamy and the temple rituals, I did not marry in the temple cuz always felt inside me that was not from God, your podcast along with pesquisas mormonas in Spanish, has helped me be more confident and convinced of stopped going to the corporation of the President blablabla, cuz your famiy members and relatives alwas condemn you saying you will come back humiliated with the tail in between your legs for leaving the church, so far I have been so happy and I still prosper after 7 years.Thank you guys for your amazing work!
I truly wonder what went through Joseph's head when he saw these plates. He went to enormous efforts with the gold plates. He knew the gold plates were a farce, but then... BAM! There are these plates that he didn't make and that might give strength to the fraud he was creating. He must have had a moment where he was like, "Holy shit! I really AM a prophet!" And then it all crumbled around him. I've always found the Kinderhook plates fascinating.
16:29 Joseph was confident in the actual reality of papyri and Kinderhook plates because those things are tangible. Joseph was so careful to keep gold plates secret because they were never real/what he claimed they were.
😮 I was duped for 50 yrs. 2 yrs ago i left mormon church and started goin to bible based church.
Moving away from mormonisn doesn't end the ordeal. As you progress, you may get to know other truths that will kick you in the heart about religion.
What will you do when you come to the realization that the Europeans altered the Bible, made Jesus a Whiteman. The inhabitants of Jerusalem and the surroundings were dark skin (black people), not white. It is this knowledge that pushed Joseph Smith to invent his own scriptures. Note. The present day White Jews reject that they Once lived in Egypt. They, jews, reject Jesus because he was not like them. Jesus was black. That is why the romans rejected and handed him over to jews to be killed.
It was prophesied, his coming, but a black man showed up. That disappointed the people. Religion, as explained by the Romans and Greeks, leaves much to be desired.
The problem is not Mormonism nor Joe Smith. Rather truth as told by the early Europeans.
Swapping delusions
ahh yes- we love when Nemo is on mormon stories!!!
I love this team and this format! I now wish that once you’re done with the problematic parts of LDS church history (granted, this may take a while) that you could tackle other world religions. I learn so much from this series and Mormon Stories in general!
I absolutely love what Mike said about faith. Faith is belief in something you can't see or confirm. Faith is NOT belief IN SPITE of what you can see and confirm. I'm an ex-christian and this absolutely applies to our "faith" too. I've learned so much from these LDS Discussions and from Derek Lambert's TH-cam channel Mythvision about all the ways the Bible was written, where the stories came from, who the books were written by, and when they were written and how easily there could have been mistakes in the copies of the copies of the copies that were written over centuries......it's so obvious to me now that there's no way to just "have faith" that the Bible is true either.
Christians do not "just have faith" that the Bible is true. We have mountains of evidence for the historocity of the Bible, unlike the uniquely LDS "scripture." "There could have been mistakes" is not the same as actually having mistakes.
If Joseph Smith suspected the Kinderhook plates were a fraud, I don't understand why he couldn't just say, "These aren't real. God is telling me these are fake" instead of feeling like he had to play along and begin to "translate" them. Wouldn't that have given him greater credibility to have said, "I've seen the real thing and these are not that"? That seems safer than pretending to translate something he suspected were a fraud.
Well, remember that this is Nauvoo period Joseph. He might be able to smell the fake, but as Mike calls out, he may not be able to help himself.
Edit: Also he might have suspected the kinderhook plates were fake, but he also couldn't for certain, so if claimed they were fake and then there were later authenticated, even falsly, by some other source, it would cast doubt on his abilities/power, which he needs to be careful about because all his credibility is built and resting on said abilities and powers. I do agree that his smartest move would've been something like, "God is silent on this matter, so it is likely a non-religous and/or irrelevant text." or something in that vein, but as they say hindsight is 20/20.
“The first dated appearance of the title "pharaoh" being attached to a ruler's name occurs in Year 17 of Siamun (tenth century BCE) on a fragment from the Karnak Priestly Annals, a religious document.” - Wikipedia
My wife studied the kinderhook plates story. She grew up in that area. Its a total fraud that totally fooled Joseph
Nemo rocks, thank you guys 🤗
Our pleasure!
Yes. Very articulate young man.
This last summer I stopped by Kinderhook, IL and not too much further down the highway went to the Mound of Zelph, the White Lamanite. Kinderhook is not a big place. Zelph's Mound was more of an Indiana Jones type of adventure to get to. If you've been there during a warm summer, you know what I mean.
It is off hwy 36 on the northside and west of the Illinois River. 240 3725 E, Griggsville, IL 62340. On google maps its called NAPLES RUSSELL MOUND 8. There is a parking area trail head on the north west corner off 300th Ave. Also a parking area on the east side off 470th Street. I would caution driving from the north west parking lot on 300th to 470th St. We were in an SUV and had trouble getting through there. Its a dirt road that falls into a ravine. Had we slipped off I dont think we would have been found for a very long time. Wear a bug net on your head. Good luck. @@Jenin_Joy
You know it's serious when Mike says "crap"
It never occurred to me before listening to this episode that Joseph Smith may have been pressured by some members into translating the Egyptian scrolls and the Kinderhook Plates. If he refused his ability to translate would be called into question.
I wonder if some of the times the early Church moved was to leave behind those who no longer believed he was a prophet or the people who could tell stories about him like his treasure digging. It would be really fascinating for someone to analyze the movements of the Saints with leaving behind people who no longer believe so the new converts won't hear their stories. I know the Whitmer clan (along with Oliver Cowdery) were left behind and I think later many of the Kirkland Saints were left behind. And then many after the bank failure. I'm sure the unbelievers were much less motivated to follow than the believers (who were sadly willing to literally give up everything, even their lives, to follow 😔).
@@randyjordan5521 thx for all the details!
@@randyjordan5521 i think it had a lot to do with polygamy as well, especially as they were grooming and stealing peoples young (teen) daughters and luring them away from their families to become 3rd & 4th wives to old(er) men. this would light a fire under any father, and all anyone had to do was organize people who were mad at the mormons for any of the above reasons and any of those fathers would be bloodthirsty and willing to do anything.
My RS President kept asking me to share my concerns, and when I finally did, providing proof, she dismissed me. Like I told her that there are court records of Joseph Smith being arrested for treasure hunting and she said, “Oh, I don’t believe that happened.” I said, “But there’s actual legal records.” “I don’t believe that happened.” 😡😤 wtf that’s when I stopped believing she really cared to hear my thoughts.
@@randyjordan5521 thanks for the link. I will gladly check out your due diligence even if Cindy can’t or won’t face the truth that her beloved church is based on lies. I’ve been catching up on Mormon Stories today & Cindy is allllllllll over the place trolling with complete abandon. A lot of it is “you left because you want to smoke weed & get drunk” garbage. Whatchya gonna do? It’s way too predictable
The only real option Joseph Smith has with these is to declare them fake, it actually increases his credibility, cause he can say things like "I've seen real ones, and they don't look like this"
it's funny that he even goes along with the Book of Abraham or Kinder Hook Plates translations at all bc he wrote into the BoM that there wouldn't be any more translation after that, so he could have just said, sorry that's all God gave me guys. he was covered by that in the BoM but there was probably a lot of social pressure to produce something.
Best commeont on Ol' Joe's reluctance to translate the Kinderhook Plates comes from Henry of Last Podcast On The Left : "you've got to be kidding me. I invented this scam."
I keep thinking back to that awful "This Is The Show" episode where they addressed the Kinderhook Plates. They kept joking about how it was all a fraud, and there's no WAY Joseph would've translated it! Seeing that that only became the final the word of the church AFTER it was shown to be a forgery gives it all a "We have always been at war with Eastasia" vibe.
after researching the kinderhook plates and watching this video, i have been made stronger in my LDS faith😊
rewatching this one. I feel so silly for having been part of this church
Around 1:48:00 John asks mike about the source that links the GAEL with the Kinderhook plates. Here are some sources:
Sunday May 7, 1843, Joseph Smith’s secretary, Willard Richards, recorded the following about Joseph Smith in Joseph Smith's journal:
“Forenoon visited by several gentlemen concerning the plates which were dug out of a mound near Quincy sent by William Smith to the office for his Hebrew Bible and Lexicon”. (Journal, December 1842-June 1844; Book 2, 10 March 1843-14 July 1843, Page 195 - Joseph Smith Papers)
The lexicon referred to is Joseph’s Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language [aka GAEL], a translation cross-reference tool JS created during his now discredited BofA translation from the Egyptian papyri he possessed. The LDS church acknowledges this reference is to the GAEL in the Joseph Smith Papers Project:
“The following spring, six brass plates were dug out of an Indian burial mound near Kinderhook, Illinois, and brought to Nauvoo, Illinois, for JS to translate. One of the men who unearthed the plates had manufactured them and planted them in a mound to deceive local Mormons. According to one source, JS looked at the plates and then ‘compared them . . . with his Egyptian alphabet,’ an apparent reference to the Grammar and Alphabet volume.” (Historical Introduction, Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language, circa July-circa November 1835 - Joseph Smith Papers)
Sunday, May 7, 1843, a letter was written by one of the participants in the May 7, 1843 visit recorded by Willard Richards. The letter was later printed as an annex to an article in the New York Herald’s May 30th 1843 publication. The letter confirms the excitement about the Kinderhook Plates discovery, that Joseph Smith compared the symbols on the Kinderhook Plates with the symbols in the GAEL, that the symbols were determined to be similar, and that there was an expectation of a full translation of the Kinderhook Plates in the future. The participant in the meeting wrote:
“Another set of plates have been found in Pike county, in the State; they were dug out of a large mound, fifteen feet from the summit, by a company of persons, fifteen in number, who all affirm to the fact of their situation when found. There were six in number, about three inches in length, and two and a half broad at one end, and one inch broad at the other, being something of the form of a bell, about the sixteenth of an inch thick, with a hold in the small end of each, fastened together with a ring, apparently of iron or steel, but which was so oxidised as to crumble to pieces when handled. The plates are evidently brass, and are covered on both sides with hieroglyphics. They were brought up and shown to Joseph Smith. He compared them in my presence with his Egyptian alphabet…and they are evidently the same characters. He therefore will be able to decipher them. There can be no doubt but they are a record of some kind, buried with an individual, centuries ago...You may expect something remarkably pretty soon.” (New York Herald, May 30th 1843 page 2 column 3) “It is important to recognize that the spine of the notebook containing Smith’s GAEL is labeled ‘Egyptian Alphabet.’” (Kinderhook Plates: TIMELINE OF IMPORTANT EVENTS - Mormon Stories)
@@randyjordan5521 Don't forget about Zelph, the white lamanite "warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky Mountains."
@@randyjordan5521 What is the source for "an old Nephite tower" in Missouri? I don't remember seeing that reference before.
I am aware of, “wandering over the plains of the Nephites” (Joseph Smith, Letter to Emma Smith, 4 June 1834)
and
As the LDS men marched across Illinois during Zion's Camp in 1834 and in Missouri, “The camp passed through Huntsville, in Randolph County, which has been appointed as one of the stakes of Zion, and is the ancient site of the City of Manti," (Millennial Star, vol. 16, p. 296. Also see: Alma 58:1, 13, 25, 27-28, 39)
@@randyjordan5521 I think I may have found the original source for the Nephite tower reference:
"...who lives at the foot of Tower Hill, a name appropriated by Prest smith, in consequence of the remains of an old Nephitish Alter an Tower,..."
("Journal, March-September 1838," p. 43, The Joseph Smith Papers, accessed January 12, 2023)
@@randyjordan5521 Thanks!
Love you Nemo!
Funny how J. Smith supposedly found the golden plates, which he hid from everyone, but the Book of Abraham and the Kinderhook plates he wanted everyone to see those.
they address that in this video or the ones on BoA... he becomes more bold and brazen as his power grows... but also he doesn't have any control over either of those because they were brought to him by outside sources and his people were pressuring him to produce translations that would prove BoM true... i'm sure he was under a lot of social pressure.
Seems convenient that Saints Unscripted did stories on the Kinderhook Plates today ... 👀
Saints Unscripted is a total joke and pathetic.
I think the Kinderhook plates ARE the smoking gun, and their tale is not told enough.
From Plates to Papyrus To Kinderhook really Shows the progression of his delusions of grandeur psychosis.
@@randyjordan5521 agreed. Immense social pressure to perform because they believed his lie so thoroughly and were convinced these other sources would prove it.
What if LDS apologists were to assert that all the missing answers were contained in the Kinderhook Plates which Joseph was unable to finish channeling due to that mob in Carthage?
well since it's already proven a fraud they've abandoned that line of reasoning.
Uh
He translated 0 (zero) plates
I would think that Joseph Smith would be highly skeptical of there being an authentic new set of buried plates (Kinderhook) if he had the perfect knowledge that there really was no previous set of plates containing the Book of Mormon. Rather, he would wonder just who's trying to cash in on one of his original schticks.
If you had to be reincarnated, and you could choose between being born into a typical LDS family or a typical secular family, which would you choose?
Interesting question. I think we are conditioned to believe what we believe whatever environment we are raised in. There are always beliefs that we have, true or untrue, based on what we were taught in our formative years. It is the basis of our understanding of ourselves and the world and it's scary to move away from that. I want to say i'd prefer a secular upbringing because it seems more neutral, but it probably isn't in all honesty, and it definitely depends on the exact situation and how dogmatic the parents are about whatever belief they hold... i think as long as the parents raise more open-minded, inquisitive, investigative children and teach them to always seek truth and ask questions... that's what matters more than what belief system they are raised in....
In the section where you were comparing the heiroglyphic signs: those are completely different. The top one is a boat, the bottom is a reed basket. While both can represent sounds, the basket is part of the standard egyptian alphabet. Take away the fact that he thought signs represented paragraphs of text, just mixing those 2 up is a major red flag. This is basic heiroglyphic translation knowledge
I am persuaded by all your analysis, and your general observations about the B.H. Roberts quote. However, I think Roberts does make a potentially valid argument when he observes that no one else associated with the hoax has come forward to support Fugate in the nearly 40 years when they could have done so. This was a legitimate argument at the time he made it. Of course he was ultimately proven to be wrong when the scientific analysis proved the plates were fakes. But you have to give him his due.
Hello all!
Hello
A better football analogy would be that they indeed get into the end zone, spike the football as a score, and then the play is called back by a penalty flag being thrown.
How come it's like there's not a whole lot of...life history about Brigham Young? How deep was he in the translation. And documents n covenants n nefarious tactics n cruelty was B Young involved in? The actual early leaders need talked about more unless I missed it. Congrats on more subs. Are you possibly going to do a handful of conversations about Brigham Young n how n why he hooked up with Jos. Smith and any good true family gossip n info like a 60 Minutes report but like Your way which means Info n plenty of it for us infidels and heathens. 😁
Since I don't think Daisy's plates are authentic I wonder who in the world planted them very dim
40:00 Reminds me of the other seer that went with Joseph to help him find the gold plates. That guy looks at the rock in the hat and asks Joseph if he can see the spectacles buried with the plates and Joseph says he cannot. It's not until the magical 3rd time of asking that Joseph is forced to claim that he can see them and that was the creation of the urim and thummim. Or when Hiram Page starts receiving revelations through a seer stone and Joseph couldn't just say, "that's fake," so he had to say they were real revelations but from the devil. People knowingly and unknowingly used Joseph's own game against him lots of times, but the genius of Joseph was surrounding himself with people he could manipulate so he was able to control the narrative as ridiculous as he made it.
I would love to know how Mike believes now? Christian, Agnostic or Atheist?
He must have stayed up nights thinking all this stuff up and people were really gullible at that time
at that time? what about now? church is pretty big... i know they try to downplay this stuff but it's out there so my mind is blown that anyone can believe it at all... i do realize there are a lot of extraneous cultural and familial factors at this point that make it so difficult to walk away even without belief. It looks like both Mike and Nemo are still officially "members" of the church even tho they have actively, demonstrably disproved the truth claims in every way.
@@freedomandcoffee they gave a different point of view which is good in every situation makes one stop and think
Another barn burner. Go Mormon Stories! I send ten bucks a month in the form of exmo tithing.🤑💵
@cindybin2001 The LDS Church disses itself so well I don’t need to volunteer my services. 🥴
@cindybin2001 You ended the discussion with “I can’t imagine being in any church.”
Was it a plate of mashed potatoes 😁
The LDS Discussion episodes are great but I'd recommend you stop claiming you are trying to be balanced and unbiased or that you are simply presenting information in a neutral way. I don't think you are. If you step back and listen, you'll likely see you can't really claim this. For example calling apologetic responses 'completely ridiculous' is a non-neutral value judgement. I'm not saying I disagree with your judgements. IMO, you just can't call such assertions 'balanced, neutral and/or unbiased.' To continue to claim any semblance of neutrality undermines your credibility and throws your own self-awareness in to question. Maybe just give up that assertion. My 2 cents.
You should highlight the BAMF who dug down 15' in the earth. lol
It's just another data point proving his MO.
Love the Kinderhookers -- the only proven true plates in all of mormonism!
💚
Why didn't Joseph Smith publish the text like he did with the book of Abraham of Book of Mormon? Well, because he didn't actually translate them. At most he gave a passing comment and nothing more.
Becca, I’m stuck on why he’s able to “translate a portion” if they were totally bogus. That doesn’t sound like scholarly interest, that sounds like he’s straight up lying about what he’s “reading”. It sounds to me Joseph Smith didn’t know for sure if they authentic or not but also didn’t want others to know he didn’t know. In either case, pretending to translate is pretty sus and a proven lie.
@@beccakerby1208 obviously this argument is unproductive, but you are saying he never explicitly said he thought they were genuine.. did he ever explicitly say they were not?
what he did say indicates he believes they are, since he purported to know what they were about. I just don't understand where you're coming up with your assertion that he knew they were a fraud when he never said that? He began something he called translation, he said he knew what they were about, he gave a summary. What more do you want? you can't say that he believed they were fake because he never said they were authentic but ignore the fact that he never said they were fake and everything he said attested in a belief that they were real and he knew what they said. What you're saying doesn't make sense. He never explicitly stated if they were or were not authentic. that is true (that we know of). But we can look at what he did say to determine that he was at least speaking to everyone around him as if he believed them to be authentic. There is just no way around it.
Joseph Smith con artist
You can't get it more obvious that he was lying.
My
Love the content. But Mike you say "ummm" every few seconds. I counted dozens of times of 'ummm' in a few minutes. Please Nemo says these beautiful pensive statements, John has this great voice and an excellent DJ and comes across and calm and sincere. Mike just stop saying "umm" "umm" "ummm" it becomes too much. Besides that, you three make an excellent presentation.
Jesus Christ is the truth, and the Abrahamic texts are the ONLY truth period. Next
I understand the "Abrahamic" texts are a mistranslation of an Ancient Egyptian text called "The Book of Coming Forth By Day," a religious book intended to guide the dead through the underworld.
@@timhazeltine3256 well that doesn't really make sense because they aren't about any of that at all.