The Guardian being able to sleep in medium/heavy armor at 1st level is a live-saver for campaigns where you're actually getting mugged during overnight rests.
If your Commander leads a party of awakened sheep, are they a Commander Shepherd? Sorry, that pun was eating me alive inside. While both classes are going to need some additions and tweaks before their final versions, it's really cool to see dedicated support classes (martials, no less) in the spotlight. I've got a real soft spot for those roles, and I'm glad the Champion is finally getting a sister class in the "while I'm around, you don't hurt them" department.
I tried out the commander for multiple sessions, and I gotta say defensive swap is a game changer feat. The fact that you can replace the target of an attack (being you or someone else) is absolutely phenomenal. I also really like the fact that they still have to hit you, unlike the guardian's intercept that just makes you take the damage. Honestly i feel this would be more suited for the guardian class instead of the commander.
I really like your class overview videos but, I feel like there is a niche in the PF2e community...combat tactics. The Knights of Last Call had a 10ish episode series on it but, it was mostly going over how to use skill actions in combat. There really isnt a great single source for visually learning how tactics can be used as a team. There are videos describing flanking but, no videos show how if the Cleric does Bless, another player demoralizes the monster, flanking, and other stacking penalties all work together. There could be a series of videos on how to play a martial, how to play a damage caster, how to play a support caster, etc....then you could splice those into your class videos and have class specific tactics as a 201 level video or something. Other than through playing the game and having the GM do these tactics to the players, there isnt a really great way to "get good" in PF2e.
I've gotta agree with forums for once, after playing with guardian for tens of hours. The concept is there on paper, but execution needs a rebuild from the ground up. Example: put a group with guardian in a moderate encounter involving lesser death...
Feels like NoNat is reacting to it based on reading it, which is fair enough. But yeah, I played it and it was hugely disappointing in practice, which seemed to be the more common reaction in terms of the core chassis (it had some good feats).
Guardian is pretty solid, but it needs a little bit... more. My suggestion in the feedback was to combine Threat Techniques and just make the combined bits a default to the class. They also need better options for ranged and AoE taunting. As it is the Taunt action is very limited. Finally, they really need a better intercept action. Being adjacent to an ally to absorb the damage makes sense, but they should extend it to at LEAST 15 feet like the Champion reactions.
I'm so fucking excited for Commander because it means that I can finally translate my support Battlemaster build over the PF2e. It's really fun to play a goober who's whole deal is yelling "I believe in you!" to give people buffs and let them attack n' all that
I have been waiting to play something like the Commander for a while: an Intelligence-based tactician as opposed to a charismatic leader who inspires others. I will be able to show the full power of Grimlock. Grimlock smartest of the Dinobots! (Yes, someone like Grand Admiral Thrawn would be a better "serious" example, but Beastkin Autamaton with penalty in Charisma for no talk good is more amusing.)
its funny to me this class is in the works when I made commanding officers an support units for the newest races XD just envision the terror of those classes having the commander buffs oh heck
5:01 I don't believe you can give an ally 2 tactics to respond to in a single round. It's in the key terms: "a character cannot respond to more than one tactic per round, regardless of source."
Commander is pretty great. Guardian was really not. Taunt lowering your AC and Intercept Strike using your HP means you don't really want to use both of them. Taunt works best at range when they can't hit you, but you can't use Intercept there. Likewise, the resistance from Intercept doesn't stack with the resistance from Armor spec, and the resistance from Mitigate Harm also doesn't stack with the resistance from Armor spec, so these features kind of just step on each others toes. Mitigate Harm also has a REALLY weird progression in what it does, and I think it would be a lot better if it just granted fortification instead. Intercept itself uses your HP as a resource and bypasses your good AC, and also leads to weird cases where you take the damage but your ally still gets Grabbed by the attack. Would be a lot better if you literally became the target of the attack instead IMO and put that good AC to use. I feel like the core class here needs a lot of work. I played it in the playtest and was extremely disappointed, as aside from Hampering Sweeps (which was ridiculous) the Guardian really doesn't do anything that a Champion can't also do, except the Champion has better offense and healing in addition to the defensive ability.
Thank you for all your videos ! My group has had to take an impromptue break in the game due to some less than commendable actions from one of them, so having so much pathfinder videos, is sooo cool to stay connected
Having playested the commander. I can tell you they are not, or at least do nor need to be played as a tank. The commander in my party has never once attempted to be where they easily hit, and the action economy the provide to the party is borderline overpowered. Now, that does not mean they cannot tank, and tank very well at that, but that is just how busted they are. You could take away their armor an weapon proficiency and they would still be a good class. And that Is terrifying. The guardian in my group literally just does nothing but use tactics, choosing carefully which ones he uses. The rules say a character can only benefit from one tactic at a time, the the commander just tells people. "Hey, you take advantage of this one" and then tells another character, hay, have this one. And then, "everyone else, do this one. At no point hashe attacked, because he just tells the barbarian to take an extra one at full map. He has never demoralized, because there is a tactic for that that is just better. The scary thing is, there is very little counter play to this, because he IS such a naturally good beafy character. Short of me just having everything target him until he is dead, he pretty much just had free reign. I love the commander, but they are very Over tuned.
I like the implementation of more "tanks" to PF2e, but for me the Champion is still the best option (from what I heard here). Why? The guardian might reduce more damage, but will fucus the incoming damage on one character. The champion will also be hit often, so that he cant attack to often, but the damage will be devided between multiple characters and the life-pool of the whole group ist till way higher than the life-pool of just one guardian. as an addition, the champion can heal (as a paladin) the main healer, if it gets hit too hard once or twice.
Whether you gain a reaction until your first turn is up to the GM, and there are a number of reaction domain spells with a trigger of rolling initiative which suggests that you should start combat with a reaction most of the time so Reaction Time's reaction is almost useless unless you either have a harsh GM or it stacks with the one you get at the start of combat.
I like both as concepts, but think they can use some work. Commander feels great but should frankly have more synergy for casters. Otherwise, itll be a class picked for heavy martial parties only and thus heavily restrict its use. Even if its with specific Tactics, such as "they can cast a 1 or 2 action Cantrip" and MAYBE upgrade to include spellslot spells as well. Guardian has a good base idea, but needs hammering out. Make Taunts worth using (-2 AC is a BRUTAL downside) without enough upside. Remember that Giant Instinct Barbarians take a -2 effectively for insane damage: Guardian takes a -2 so someone can potentially hit them instead. Its just.. meh. I feel like giving their Interceoting Strike a chance to not get hit as the enemy rolls against the Guardian's AC would do wonders, and Taunt giving a bonus based on a subclass (Currently im thinking a Vengeful for damage, Bully for control, and Vanguard for party defense) could make it worth. And maybe even a trait that makes critting the Guardian harder to pull off. For example, -2 AC on guardian but the trait, Stalwart, making it so that the enemy has to do 10 over their ORIGINAL AC in order to crit. So they dont...you know. Get crit as a tank as often. I like them both as playtest material. I just think they need some careful pushes in the right direction or else Guardian may be the new Oracle and we are barely getting that fixed as it stands.
Funnily enough, I didn't think that Taunts were worth using because it didn't feel effective enough at its job. The goal is to make you the more appealing target to attack, however unless you're taunting for another martial, you might still have the higher AC between you and a Caster.
Nice to see you on the PF space again! I had some mede cheese balls for breakfast (air fried) and I've been keeping myself hydrated. And I'm watching you again 🎉
Currently making my first ever pathfinder character. Very much about storybuilding for the character and it ended up being everything i want guardian to be lol. Sadly will have to play cleric or champion instead :(
For what it's worth, I'm not constantly on the breach about new content for Pathfinder 2E, and you're always the one that inform me about new stuff even now, so don't frett about being late, at least you're there. Edit : Oh god do I like the Commander. So cool ^^
ive been ITCHING to find a support class that doesn't rely on magic or alchemy and the commander is literally perfect for that!!! i mean of course we have some classes that do that already but the commander is literally dedicated to supporting your allies and setting them up for success. i am so excited to try it out
Hey man I just found out your content went back to pathfinder and I want to say, glad to have you back. I know many have gone after you over that weird switch, but in all honesty everyone changes their mind and makes decisions that become mistakes in the future. Bell icon turned back on :)
I am actually super excited for both of these classes. I really like the dynamic of a non magic commander and guardien. So much fantasy.Those roles are regulated to clerics, paladins and magic users or specifically religious characters
you actually can wear your banner, but doing so makes it so you can't use tactics with the banner trait. You need to have your banner in your hand (or planted) to do banner related tactics.
I have so far woken up at 5 am and so I've had a sausage roll for my breakfast but haven't had anything to drink yet. Loved the video, have a lovely day 😁
You don't get your reaction until your first turn in combat? I have never heard that before, all I have read is that DM can decide if you cannot get your reaction yet, as in you get ambushed or something.
Guardian needs a lot of work. For one, there's no mention of how weak its damage chassis is: Expert/Master weapons at levels 7 & 17, Weapon/Greater Spec at levels 11 & 17. You are only Trained for more than the first 1/4 of your levels, the first half at +0 bonus damage; and then from 11 to 16 you do +2 damage, and then +6 after. This makes Guardian a low-threat enemy when it comes to Strikes, which makes it a low-value target at its core. Taunt also does a bad job of making the Guardian a more valuable target due to their AC discrepancies to their squishiest allies. Compare a Guardian to a Wizard (modest DEX) at levels 1, 5, and 15. (Skip potency and level for faster math; it applies equally at all levels.) At level 1: - Guardian: 2[trained] + 4[chain] + 1[DEX] = +7 - Wizard: 2[trained] + 2[DEX] = +4 At level 5: - Guardian: 4[expert] + 4[chain] + 1[DEX] = +9 - Wizard: 2[trained] + 3[DEX] = +5 At level 15: - Guardian: 8[legendary] + 4[chain] + 1[DEX] = +13 - Wizard: 4[expert] + 4[DEX] = +8 Assume a failure against Taunt, so that's -2 to the Guardian, and +2 to the Wizard. After 5th level, the Guardian is the hardest to hit, unless you have a Wizard who is minmaxing DEX specifically (+DEX from ancesty, background, and free boost for +3, +4 at 5th, +5 at 15th). Meanwhile, the Wizard is still the more threatening creature on the board. This gets worse if you waste your actions raising a shield (or waste the feat that lets you Taunt + Raise a Shield), because as soon as they hit the Wizard anyway, you then Intercept the Strike to ignore all your awesome AC bonuses and tank with the Wizard's AC+2. And god forbid you DIDN'T Taunt, but you did Raise a Shield, and the enemy goes and hits your squishy caster anyway, and got crit, so now you get to eat a crit that would've been a hit for you (or maybe even a miss). In strict hypothesis, Guardian is a tank, right. You have high AC, so they're less likely to hit you. You Intercept your ally, well you resisted that damage. But consider how the presence of an additional party member affects ENCOUNTER BUILDING, and now you realize that the Guardian may actually have actively dragged the encounter's success chance down by being present as compared to any other class, or by having an equivalent-difficulty encounter without the Guardian present. You have to ask yourself: does the resistance from Intercept Strike outweigh having a party member who SPENDS ACTIONS to give themselves the Fighter's AC (or less at many breakpoints) and somewhat buff the party's AC, and strikes with low damage and accuracy? At that point, don't even bother with weapons, and just be a grappler, since skills scale more universally. Just be in melee, take hits with your innate AC, and sometimes defend your allies.
I disagree with you on the Guardian. I've actually playtested it and while it's not "weak", it feels bad. Why ? Because let me ask you this: WHY would an enemy choose to attack an ally and not you ? Imagine they are hitting a wizard in robes, their AC is so much lower than yours that thay're easier to hit even with taunt. So to hurt YOU, the optimal play is to attack your allies, which completely bypasses the main strength of the Champion class: its Armor Proficiency with the Specialization. Compare this with the Champion subclasses, the effects from reactions actually punish the ennemy from attacking your ally or move the ally to safety (for the Liberator) AND you get healing powers. But not everything is bad ! One redeeming quality for the Guardian is the second-level Hampering Sweeps feat, which does an amazing job at locking down annemies, and ACTUALLY keeping your allies safe. I also think the Tough Cookie feat is cool (and quite useful) I hope Paizo will iron out the clunkiness from the class for the release. But I trust them, I like how they do playtests And thanks for the content by the way, I enjoy your videos !
this lowkey hurts, as i just started a campaign as champion which ive altered with feats and archetype to basically be a poor version of guardian. i kinda wanna cancel my current PC until i can play them as guardian, what they are meant to be. These new classes look amazing!
I'm happy to see you back on PF2e, but I did really like the City of Heroes stuff. I'd love to see a video walk-through of some of the task forces, because I can't do them solo but I also don't want to join the group and have zero idea what we are doing. I know that's super specific content, but if nothing else it's a comment for the algorithm.
I legit had picked up my bottle of water and had started drinking when ya asked if I had drank enough water, and spent a whole two seconds fully considering that you were talking to me.
Having tried both the commander and the guardian I have to say that the commander felt incredible. I had so many things to try and ways to impact the combat tactically. With the Guardian I was just a slab of meat that couldn't meaningfully impact anything other than my own health that I dropped constantly. Guardian as printed is thematic and very underwhelming.
The commander banner being attached to your weapon makes no sense to me. Armor sure, but your weapon? Its a freaking banner. I don't remember which one gets it, but the ability that prevents enemies from moving away from them is way overpowered from our playtest.
a lot of things in these Tabletops make no sense when picking feats they open up so many plot holes by not wanting me to do certain things even-though the whole build an class makes it so we totally should be able XD
never let a let the four animal legs races an the sea-life races have them we would all be screwed I made a Swashbuckler with 50 move speed designed for hit an run with critical hits its BS now image a Commander leading the stampede then sea-life does this under the seas
From my understanding these aren't really that ground breaking Commander is just similar to warlord from D&D 4e And Guardian is probably closest to D&D 4es fighter or warden
90 degrees? Yeah, you're probably within a couple of hours of where I live. Drink water, it should only get worse, we'll hit triple digits within the next month or so.
I’m pretty sour on the guardian, for the low cost of an action you can turn all your enemies into a fighter? Sure, armor specialization helps with the crits little bit, but your side will probably still take more damage than if you hadn’t taunted. Also, the design of piling all the damage onto one character is against basic tactics, you want to spread the damage to avoid anyone going down (and losing the resources and actions healing them that could’ve been spent killing enemies). As for the commander, I played with one during the play test period. The commands are interesting, and if on a team with party members specialized for it it can be useful, however in PFS with randomized squads it felt kinda flat. She did get some use out of having an ally reload his gun, but I felt the cost in actions were too many. The standard of 1-2 actions, plus a reaction, to get about one actions worth of value. Sure, it boosts that players effectiveness by a little, but remember you’re giving up an entire class to do this, and at no point did I think the commands were more valuable than just having a fighter to strike or a bard to buff.
The Guardian being able to sleep in medium/heavy armor at 1st level is a live-saver for campaigns where you're actually getting mugged during overnight rests.
If a GM's gonna throw that into the campaign constantly, I'm only doing quests in the Rich Distract and never leaving the city.
Use Magic Device and Instant Armor is a lvl 2 spell. Everyone can have that by lvl 4 because of item lvl
If your Commander leads a party of awakened sheep, are they a Commander Shepherd?
Sorry, that pun was eating me alive inside.
While both classes are going to need some additions and tweaks before their final versions, it's really cool to see dedicated support classes (martials, no less) in the spotlight. I've got a real soft spot for those roles, and I'm glad the Champion is finally getting a sister class in the "while I'm around, you don't hurt them" department.
I just want the Campion, Commander, Guardian combo of 'No enemy! you can't decide what to do on your turn!'
For me I was thinking Xcom voice saying “COMMANDER”
Guardian Is quite actually MMO tank role, and I love it.
Let's MMORPG players get into TTRPG easier.
Look up community reaction on the playtest.
He's weak tank.
I tried out the commander for multiple sessions, and I gotta say defensive swap is a game changer feat. The fact that you can replace the target of an attack (being you or someone else) is absolutely phenomenal. I also really like the fact that they still have to hit you, unlike the guardian's intercept that just makes you take the damage. Honestly i feel this would be more suited for the guardian class instead of the commander.
I really like your class overview videos but, I feel like there is a niche in the PF2e community...combat tactics. The Knights of Last Call had a 10ish episode series on it but, it was mostly going over how to use skill actions in combat. There really isnt a great single source for visually learning how tactics can be used as a team. There are videos describing flanking but, no videos show how if the Cleric does Bless, another player demoralizes the monster, flanking, and other stacking penalties all work together.
There could be a series of videos on how to play a martial, how to play a damage caster, how to play a support caster, etc....then you could splice those into your class videos and have class specific tactics as a 201 level video or something.
Other than through playing the game and having the GM do these tactics to the players, there isnt a really great way to "get good" in PF2e.
king ooga tonton has some video like that of fight against some ennemy with some class
Hrm.. Commander: Helping people shift around, aka getting jiggy with it...
Guardian: Professional Victim.....
Interesting that Nonat is so positive about the Guardian, I feel like it had the biggest backlash in a Paizo playtest I've seen otherwise.
I've gotta agree with forums for once, after playing with guardian for tens of hours. The concept is there on paper, but execution needs a rebuild from the ground up. Example: put a group with guardian in a moderate encounter involving lesser death...
Feels like NoNat is reacting to it based on reading it, which is fair enough. But yeah, I played it and it was hugely disappointing in practice, which seemed to be the more common reaction in terms of the core chassis (it had some good feats).
Glad you're back NoNat and love the colours you chose for the nail polish!!!
Guardian is pretty solid, but it needs a little bit... more. My suggestion in the feedback was to combine Threat Techniques and just make the combined bits a default to the class. They also need better options for ranged and AoE taunting. As it is the Taunt action is very limited. Finally, they really need a better intercept action. Being adjacent to an ally to absorb the damage makes sense, but they should extend it to at LEAST 15 feet like the Champion reactions.
I'm so fucking excited for Commander because it means that I can finally translate my support Battlemaster build over the PF2e. It's really fun to play a goober who's whole deal is yelling "I believe in you!" to give people buffs and let them attack n' all that
The guardian is something I always wanted to play and now that there is a simple class to achieve that, I feel seen.
Love the nails Nonat! They look great!
I have been waiting to play something like the Commander for a while: an Intelligence-based tactician as opposed to a charismatic leader who inspires others.
I will be able to show the full power of Grimlock. Grimlock smartest of the Dinobots!
(Yes, someone like Grand Admiral Thrawn would be a better "serious" example, but Beastkin Autamaton with penalty in Charisma for no talk good is more amusing.)
its funny to me this class is in the works when I made commanding officers an support units for the newest races XD just envision the terror of those classes having the commander buffs oh heck
5:01 I don't believe you can give an ally 2 tactics to respond to in a single round. It's in the key terms: "a character cannot respond to more than one tactic per round, regardless of source."
Commander is pretty great. Guardian was really not. Taunt lowering your AC and Intercept Strike using your HP means you don't really want to use both of them. Taunt works best at range when they can't hit you, but you can't use Intercept there. Likewise, the resistance from Intercept doesn't stack with the resistance from Armor spec, and the resistance from Mitigate Harm also doesn't stack with the resistance from Armor spec, so these features kind of just step on each others toes. Mitigate Harm also has a REALLY weird progression in what it does, and I think it would be a lot better if it just granted fortification instead.
Intercept itself uses your HP as a resource and bypasses your good AC, and also leads to weird cases where you take the damage but your ally still gets Grabbed by the attack. Would be a lot better if you literally became the target of the attack instead IMO and put that good AC to use.
I feel like the core class here needs a lot of work. I played it in the playtest and was extremely disappointed, as aside from Hampering Sweeps (which was ridiculous) the Guardian really doesn't do anything that a Champion can't also do, except the Champion has better offense and healing in addition to the defensive ability.
Thank you for all your videos ! My group has had to take an impromptue break in the game due to some less than commendable actions from one of them, so having so much pathfinder videos, is sooo cool to stay connected
Having playested the commander. I can tell you they are not, or at least do nor need to be played as a tank. The commander in my party has never once attempted to be where they easily hit, and the action economy the provide to the party is borderline overpowered.
Now, that does not mean they cannot tank, and tank very well at that, but that is just how busted they are. You could take away their armor an weapon proficiency and they would still be a good class. And that Is terrifying.
The guardian in my group literally just does nothing but use tactics, choosing carefully which ones he uses. The rules say a character can only benefit from one tactic at a time, the the commander just tells people. "Hey, you take advantage of this one" and then tells another character, hay, have this one. And then, "everyone else, do this one.
At no point hashe attacked, because he just tells the barbarian to take an extra one at full map. He has never demoralized, because there is a tactic for that that is just better.
The scary thing is, there is very little counter play to this, because he IS such a naturally good beafy character. Short of me just having everything target him until he is dead, he pretty much just had free reign.
I love the commander, but they are very Over tuned.
I like the implementation of more "tanks" to PF2e, but for me the Champion is still the best option (from what I heard here). Why? The guardian might reduce more damage, but will fucus the incoming damage on one character. The champion will also be hit often, so that he cant attack to often, but the damage will be devided between multiple characters and the life-pool of the whole group ist till way higher than the life-pool of just one guardian. as an addition, the champion can heal (as a paladin) the main healer, if it gets hit too hard once or twice.
it pushes it close to what PF was with Path of War. Nothing but good
Glad you’re back, Nonat.
The armor skirt item makes getting heavy armor at level 1 easy. It's also the only way currently to get heavy chain armor.
I was actually wondering if you could use armored skirt on hide armor lol, heavy hide armor seems like a cool concept
I love your nails NoNat, i support you
Hmn, If you slap in a Kinecticist Dedication(Wood) on a Guardian and pick Tree Sentinel, it gets kinda funny
Excited to hear about both! Can't wait for your deep dives on both of em
Whether you gain a reaction until your first turn is up to the GM, and there are a number of reaction domain spells with a trigger of rolling initiative which suggests that you should start combat with a reaction most of the time so Reaction Time's reaction is almost useless unless you either have a harsh GM or it stacks with the one you get at the start of combat.
Guardian actually doesn't get advancement to Light or Unarmored Defense, just Medium and Heavy armors
From someone who's bad at keeping an eye out for playtests, you covering them, even if late, is very much appreciated
I like both as concepts, but think they can use some work.
Commander feels great but should frankly have more synergy for casters. Otherwise, itll be a class picked for heavy martial parties only and thus heavily restrict its use. Even if its with specific Tactics, such as "they can cast a 1 or 2 action Cantrip" and MAYBE upgrade to include spellslot spells as well.
Guardian has a good base idea, but needs hammering out. Make Taunts worth using (-2 AC is a BRUTAL downside) without enough upside. Remember that Giant Instinct Barbarians take a -2 effectively for insane damage: Guardian takes a -2 so someone can potentially hit them instead. Its just.. meh. I feel like giving their Interceoting Strike a chance to not get hit as the enemy rolls against the Guardian's AC would do wonders, and Taunt giving a bonus based on a subclass (Currently im thinking a Vengeful for damage, Bully for control, and Vanguard for party defense) could make it worth. And maybe even a trait that makes critting the Guardian harder to pull off. For example, -2 AC on guardian but the trait, Stalwart, making it so that the enemy has to do 10 over their ORIGINAL AC in order to crit. So they dont...you know. Get crit as a tank as often.
I like them both as playtest material. I just think they need some careful pushes in the right direction or else Guardian may be the new Oracle and we are barely getting that fixed as it stands.
Funnily enough, I didn't think that Taunts were worth using because it didn't feel effective enough at its job. The goal is to make you the more appealing target to attack, however unless you're taunting for another martial, you might still have the higher AC between you and a Caster.
Nice to see you on the PF space again! I had some mede cheese balls for breakfast (air fried) and I've been keeping myself hydrated. And I'm watching you again 🎉
Currently making my first ever pathfinder character. Very much about storybuilding for the character and it ended up being everything i want guardian to be lol. Sadly will have to play cleric or champion instead :(
For what it's worth, I'm not constantly on the breach about new content for Pathfinder 2E, and you're always the one that inform me about new stuff even now, so don't frett about being late, at least you're there.
Edit : Oh god do I like the Commander. So cool ^^
ive been ITCHING to find a support class that doesn't rely on magic or alchemy and the commander is literally perfect for that!!! i mean of course we have some classes that do that already but the commander is literally dedicated to supporting your allies and setting them up for success. i am so excited to try it out
A strawberry banana smoothie! Gotta keep the fluids up during the dog days of summer.
Your playtest reply period is never over with me.
Honestly, the commander sounds like the 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons warlord and I am looking forward to it!
I had some cheerios for breakfast and then a snack of a cheese slice I hope you ate good too!
Hey man I just found out your content went back to pathfinder and I want to say, glad to have you back. I know many have gone after you over that weird switch, but in all honesty everyone changes their mind and makes decisions that become mistakes in the future. Bell icon turned back on :)
I am actually super excited for both of these classes. I really like the dynamic of a non magic commander and guardien. So much fantasy.Those roles are regulated to clerics, paladins and magic users or specifically religious characters
Man, I feel that "woopse!"
And I hope I'm drinking enough water. Got a huge cup beside me right now, though it is over a hundred out.
Going to Gen Con again as a volunteer GM this year! Paizo gave me a busier schedule 😅 (setup/teardown/9 out of 10 games)
Commander is gonna let me bring my battle herald into 2e sweet! I loved that prestige class in 1e!
i like the studio setup
you actually can wear your banner, but doing so makes it so you can't use tactics with the banner trait. You need to have your banner in your hand (or planted) to do banner related tactics.
I have so far woken up at 5 am and so I've had a sausage roll for my breakfast but haven't had anything to drink yet. Loved the video, have a lovely day 😁
I am really interested in the finished commander and envoy and the whole leadership support martial that felt under explored before hand
Welcome back NoNats!
You don't get your reaction until your first turn in combat? I have never heard that before, all I have read is that DM can decide if you cannot get your reaction yet, as in you get ambushed or something.
Guardian needs a lot of work. For one, there's no mention of how weak its damage chassis is: Expert/Master weapons at levels 7 & 17, Weapon/Greater Spec at levels 11 & 17. You are only Trained for more than the first 1/4 of your levels, the first half at +0 bonus damage; and then from 11 to 16 you do +2 damage, and then +6 after. This makes Guardian a low-threat enemy when it comes to Strikes, which makes it a low-value target at its core.
Taunt also does a bad job of making the Guardian a more valuable target due to their AC discrepancies to their squishiest allies. Compare a Guardian to a Wizard (modest DEX) at levels 1, 5, and 15. (Skip potency and level for faster math; it applies equally at all levels.)
At level 1:
- Guardian: 2[trained] + 4[chain] + 1[DEX] = +7
- Wizard: 2[trained] + 2[DEX] = +4
At level 5:
- Guardian: 4[expert] + 4[chain] + 1[DEX] = +9
- Wizard: 2[trained] + 3[DEX] = +5
At level 15:
- Guardian: 8[legendary] + 4[chain] + 1[DEX] = +13
- Wizard: 4[expert] + 4[DEX] = +8
Assume a failure against Taunt, so that's -2 to the Guardian, and +2 to the Wizard. After 5th level, the Guardian is the hardest to hit, unless you have a Wizard who is minmaxing DEX specifically (+DEX from ancesty, background, and free boost for +3, +4 at 5th, +5 at 15th). Meanwhile, the Wizard is still the more threatening creature on the board. This gets worse if you waste your actions raising a shield (or waste the feat that lets you Taunt + Raise a Shield), because as soon as they hit the Wizard anyway, you then Intercept the Strike to ignore all your awesome AC bonuses and tank with the Wizard's AC+2.
And god forbid you DIDN'T Taunt, but you did Raise a Shield, and the enemy goes and hits your squishy caster anyway, and got crit, so now you get to eat a crit that would've been a hit for you (or maybe even a miss).
In strict hypothesis, Guardian is a tank, right. You have high AC, so they're less likely to hit you. You Intercept your ally, well you resisted that damage. But consider how the presence of an additional party member affects ENCOUNTER BUILDING, and now you realize that the Guardian may actually have actively dragged the encounter's success chance down by being present as compared to any other class, or by having an equivalent-difficulty encounter without the Guardian present.
You have to ask yourself: does the resistance from Intercept Strike outweigh having a party member who SPENDS ACTIONS to give themselves the Fighter's AC (or less at many breakpoints) and somewhat buff the party's AC, and strikes with low damage and accuracy? At that point, don't even bother with weapons, and just be a grappler, since skills scale more universally. Just be in melee, take hits with your innate AC, and sometimes defend your allies.
I love the idea of both the Commander and the Guardians. I hope they gave us a bit more versatility for the Guardian.
I drank almost 8 cups today oh great Nonat please do not smite me
Super excited to try both
Poached Eggs with tomato and cheese on toast was my breakfast, thank you for asking !
Hi Nonat. Any planes on remaking any of yours beginers guides after the 4 years of experience and a system revork? It would be cool and userfull.
The new classes sounds fun and your nails look pretty.
I disagree with you on the Guardian. I've actually playtested it and while it's not "weak", it feels bad. Why ?
Because let me ask you this: WHY would an enemy choose to attack an ally and not you ?
Imagine they are hitting a wizard in robes, their AC is so much lower than yours that thay're easier to hit even with taunt.
So to hurt YOU, the optimal play is to attack your allies, which completely bypasses the main strength of the Champion class: its Armor Proficiency with the Specialization.
Compare this with the Champion subclasses, the effects from reactions actually punish the ennemy from attacking your ally or move the ally to safety (for the Liberator) AND you get healing powers.
But not everything is bad ! One redeeming quality for the Guardian is the second-level Hampering Sweeps feat, which does an amazing job at locking down annemies, and ACTUALLY keeping your allies safe.
I also think the Tough Cookie feat is cool (and quite useful)
I hope Paizo will iron out the clunkiness from the class for the release. But I trust them, I like how they do playtests
And thanks for the content by the way, I enjoy your videos !
Go on a walk everybody. It's good for you
Guardian, you only DON'T have your Reaction on the first turn if the GM thinks you're "surprised", which is a LOT less often!
Commander commands, Guardian guards. Noted.
I had Cinnamon Life Cereal, thanks for asking.
You did make it to 12 minutes, so well done.
guardian sounds fun as hell
Heya Nat. Yep, got enough water. Thanks for asking!
this lowkey hurts, as i just started a campaign as champion which ive altered with feats and archetype to basically be a poor version of guardian. i kinda wanna cancel my current PC until i can play them as guardian, what they are meant to be. These new classes look amazing!
I'm happy to see you back on PF2e, but I did really like the City of Heroes stuff.
I'd love to see a video walk-through of some of the task forces, because I can't do them solo but I also don't want to join the group and have zero idea what we are doing.
I know that's super specific content, but if nothing else it's a comment for the algorithm.
I legit had picked up my bottle of water and had started drinking when ya asked if I had drank enough water, and spent a whole two seconds fully considering that you were talking to me.
Not letting The Banner just be worn and handless, having it be weapon based means you can't swap weapons vs special targets.
Them cotton candy nails though. Nice.
Having tried both the commander and the guardian I have to say that the commander felt incredible. I had so many things to try and ways to impact the combat tactically. With the Guardian I was just a slab of meat that couldn't meaningfully impact anything other than my own health that I dropped constantly. Guardian as printed is thematic and very underwhelming.
Had toast and marmite for breakfast
I had rolls from Texas Roadhouse for breakfast.
also, protean shake and an eggwich sandwich with a liter of water.
I want guardian to be good so bad, just a few changes would go a long way
When might we see the finalized new classes?
I'd drink more water if I wasn't told to not drink the water at work.
I had a chocolate chip cookie ice cream sandwich for breakfast. 😅
I did drink enough water! Thanks for asking :)
Yes sir. I've been drinking enough water
... Oh shit. I need to drink more water.
Just wondering, are you still playing CoH? I miss your streams. 🙂
I did not drink enough water and I have fruit loops.
Hello Nonat from France ! I was waiting to have your enthousiastic review of this two classes ! Nice setup by the way !
I had s'mores cereal for breakfast today.
What a great video. I like these.
The reason you can't wear the banner is so that it can be disarmed from you.
The commander banner being attached to your weapon makes no sense to me. Armor sure, but your weapon? Its a freaking banner. I don't remember which one gets it, but the ability that prevents enemies from moving away from them is way overpowered from our playtest.
a lot of things in these Tabletops make no sense
when picking feats they open up so many plot holes by not wanting me to do certain things even-though the whole build an class makes it so we totally should be able XD
I'm very excited for the Commander, but the Guardian doesn't hit any soft spot for me. Especially with the future "existence" of the Thanatos.
never let a let the four animal legs races an the sea-life races have them we would all be screwed
I made a Swashbuckler with 50 move speed designed for hit an run with critical hits its BS now image a Commander leading the stampede then sea-life does this under the seas
I had granola and yogurt for breakfast thanks for asking
From my understanding these aren't really that ground breaking
Commander is just similar to warlord from D&D 4e
And Guardian is probably closest to D&D 4es fighter or warden
I did not drink enough water today.
90 degrees? Yeah, you're probably within a couple of hours of where I live. Drink water, it should only get worse, we'll hit triple digits within the next month or so.
until now i always thought your name was "nonatis" with a 1 to be quirky, never saw the no nat 1s.
I've drank 7 bottles of water today since I woke up, but my mouth still feels like I drank the ocean or ate a crematorium. Help!
Where is the Turtleneck!?
Both seem like Fighter or Champion subtypes or archetypes, not unique standalone classes
I’m pretty sour on the guardian, for the low cost of an action you can turn all your enemies into a fighter? Sure, armor specialization helps with the crits little bit, but your side will probably still take more damage than if you hadn’t taunted. Also, the design of piling all the damage onto one character is against basic tactics, you want to spread the damage to avoid anyone going down (and losing the resources and actions healing them that could’ve been spent killing enemies).
As for the commander, I played with one during the play test period. The commands are interesting, and if on a team with party members specialized for it it can be useful, however in PFS with randomized squads it felt kinda flat. She did get some use out of having an ally reload his gun, but I felt the cost in actions were too many. The standard of 1-2 actions, plus a reaction, to get about one actions worth of value. Sure, it boosts that players effectiveness by a little, but remember you’re giving up an entire class to do this, and at no point did I think the commands were more valuable than just having a fighter to strike or a bard to buff.
I feel like someone put the kitchen floor on your wall.
comment!
ah fec,, drinking my water now
I make maps.
FOR THE ALGORITHM!!!
Cool