Why Did the Atari Jaguar Fail? - Unreleased Atari Jaguar Games | Cancelled Jaguar Games
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ม.ค. 2019
- Episode 55 - The launch of Unreleased Atari Jaguar. This episode covers all canceled games scheduled for release on the Jaguar and Jaguar CD alphabetically A-AR.
Vince 19's Channel:
/ @vince19games
Follow me on twitter to keep up to date on the latest happenings concerning this channel. Also for those post containing the occasional farm animal.
/ jenovi
-Jenovi
Retro Impressions
Some Sources used in this video.
console5.com/wiki/Atari_Jagua...
www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da...
Edge Magazine Supplemental 22
Next Gen Vol 2 Issue 16
x-cult.org
team17.com/T17/teamtalk/tt2.html
atarimania.com
Scott Stilphen
removers.free.fr/AnotherWorld/
www.arcadeattack.co.uk/james-...
Wrestling With Gaming (Shared Research)
Many other Magazines
Segments from the follwoing
• Jack Tramiel Interview...
• ATARI JAGUAR CD VLM JE...
• Atari Jaguar: Brutal S...
• Video
• Aero the Acrobat (Supe...
• Tempest 2000 (Atari Ja...
• Atari Jaguar Cybermorp...
• Trevor McFur in the Cr...
• Atari Jaguar Commercials
• Let's Play Adventure ...
• Allegiance FPS by Team...
• arena football '95 - a...
• Sega Saturn Longplay [...
• Another World - Comple...
• Alien Vs Predator - At...
• Aliens vs. Predator (2...
• Atari’s Big Cat and PS...
• Let's Play American He...
#Atari #jaguar - เกม
I really liked Cybermorph. *Shrug
As someone who actually spent time at Atari the few occasions I visited them, and knew about the inside workings I am glad you are fair and accurate in your pieces about them. It's become popular to bash Atari from people who weren't even fucking alive during this era.
Thanks GJ. I try to frame these videos as to put the era and conditions into perspective. With the Jag, it’s mostly misunderstood.
Where did you learn to drive
One developer made that game, on his own. In 6 months I think.
AVOID THE GROUND.
Agreed I don’t understand the hatred and most of it comes from people who never even owned a Jaguar or even knew what Atari was. Hopefully the new Atari VCS can pick up the torch that the Jaguar left off and bring Atari back to greatness.
The quality of your videos keeps increasing -- very noticeable. Another great unreleased video. Thank you for letting me be a small part of this one!
This was a great video. The Jaguar has become very close to my heart along with the Amiga CD32 and 3DO in a weird 'early to mid 90s failed console' sort of way. I also recently just picked up a Jaguar CD, so I can't wait to explore the unreleased titles and betas for that.
Keep up the great work!
Congrats on that Jag CD, I've been looking for just the right one myself. The number of games being released using the CD format almost makes it worth the high price of entry. BTW, keep an eye on Retro HQ as he's getting ready to launch a Flash Cart .
cd32 is my heart string pull loved mine and played seni soccer on it all the time
I didn’t own a 3DO. But I did own a CD32 (the rare, Canadian-only, NTSC version no less), and two Jaguars, back in the day. Still have them and still love them. :-) Hover Strike is the system’s biggest hidden gem, IMO. I recommend playing it co-op, with one person driving and the other shooting. There’s a CD sequel that’s even better.
Exceedingly well done video, or perhaps a should say documentary. Even though I have a Jag and Jag CD, I learned so much here that I wasn't aware of. And fantastic to feature Vince19! That was a welcome surprise!
That Vince19 guy is ok in my book. 😁
Great video! Very informative and really well put together. You should be very proud of this one.
Thanks amigo. I'm trying to keep up with the Jones when it comes to video quality.... The Jones being you and Historic Nerd.
Hey man. Great work on this bad boy! Great research, writing and editing. Just a joy to watch.
Thank you for the very kind words. It was a pleasure to make, especially when so many people enjoy the end product.
Jenovi - I really enjoyed it! I can’t wait to watch more of your videos. Tonight’s going to be a good night! 😁
Don’t get to disappointed. Not all are this polished.
Jenovi - don’t worry dude..I’m sure they will by just fine. I’m off to test my theory, let’s see! 😁
I wish Atari and Sega could come out with new consoles.
There is Atari VCS but I don't know about Sega.
They did. The Atari VCS is out now. Atari fans should support it to help with their success. It's a pretty good console. Lots of retro, retro reimagined, indie games and streaming services available on it (Microsoft Game Pass, Stadia, Luna). The retro controller included with it is awesome, too. The stick spins like a rotary controller.
They’d get eaten alive unfortunately
You where born to see the world burn. Kids will be drooling on VR since console games come with big bugs now to discourage console game playing
atari for the atari vcs 2 should have some new exclusive atari games developed and released only for the atari vcs 2
This is truly going to be a long journey...Good video man! American Football by Parker Brothers was, AFAIK, mentioned across old online newsletters such as Atari Explorer Online and Electronic Games magazine by Bill Kunkel (late 1993-early 1994 IIRC.), while Adventure 2000 is a homebrew. Wait until you get to the Atari-Sega ordeal, because only 5 games were picked out of a HUGE catalog.
Great series. Thank you for clearing up much of the mystery surrounding the illustrious Jaguar.
Thanks for checking it out. :D
I don't know if it was already pointed out, but the footage from AvP on PC is not the '99 version but the one from 2010 on Xbox 360 and PS3 as well.
Ah, my bad. I mislabeled it.
@@Jenovi If that was 1999 AVP would be the Crysis of that time (all Crysis jokes aside)
Funny enough AvP 1999 kinda was, most comouters had no 3d acceleration and the voodoo graphics cards could barely handle AvP when the game released.
I'm one of the very few people who can claim this because of the rare chance I got to own a Jaguar 64 but I've beaten Aliens VS Predator, Ultra Vortex, Tempest 2000, Rayman, Cybermorph, Kasumi Ninja, Dragons Lair CD and Atari Karts. I wanted Jaguar 64 to succeed so I supported as much as I could. Also I was able to play Doom land support Play with to Jaguars and to 2 TV. That was mind-blowing at the time.
Another big issue was that the Jaguar launched with major hardware bugs that prevented developers from coming close to the promise of the chip set. There was one recall, caused by Doom being unable to be played on the first shipments of the Jag. (I had one of these, with a serial number in the 4000s. Yeah, I had a penchant for underdog systems back then.) Those early units were replaced with an update board and chip set but plenty of serious bugs remained. I spoke to one developer at the funeral of a mutual friend. He felt that as much as a third of the system's performance was lost to these bugs and the required workarounds.
The 80,000+ number for AvP may be true in a highly qualified sense of the word. It's not at unlikely the that number of cartridges were manufactured. The nature of mask ROM production favored larger orders. While capital intensive, if you under-ordered a game, it could be many months before another opening in the schedule allowed for more units to be made. If Atari was still confident in Jaguar's future at the time AvP went into manufacturing, 80,000 would have been a modest initial order for an anticipated hit.
By the time Atari made the sales claim, the inventory might already have been marked down to cost or less and dumped in the retail channel to anyone who thought they could move it at the lower price. Thus 80,000+ sold! At least by the business logic of the Tramiel-verse.
The Jaguar is coming to video games and I can’t wait lol. This is one of my favorite gaming video series. Keep up the great work my friend.
What did you think of the segment after the credits?
The post credit segment just leaves me wanting more. I’m always amazed at the wealth of accurate information that you present. We’re lucky to have you in the TH-cam community.
@@townlinetim876 I would love to speak with any of the crew that were involved with Area 51 to see if Atari did indeed had plans for a Jaguar port, as it was originally going to use Cinepak to stream the FMV instead of a HDD.
Great job! I really like this series. I am looking forward to more!
Thanks Jon.
Thanks for posting! Verrrry informative.
Glad you enjoyed and thanks for watching.
Great video, really informative. Subscribed.
Thanks Nate, welcome aboard the Retro Impressions train. 🚂
This is some amazing research and information. The Jaguar is my favorite console of all time and I wish it could have flourished. But then again since it didn't it's got a special place with me and many people just don't even know about the system all together. This is an awesome list of games here! I will keep watching all of the videos you make about the Jaguar
This series will be around 10 in total, so a fair amount still to come.
Great video. The Jaguar & CD are among my favorite systems of all time, with the Sega CD.
You best believe the Sega CD is getting its own series. I’m a diehard Genesis/Sega CD/32X fan.
@@Jenovi Sega CD needs more love. These kids now a days don't know how great the Sega CD was.
Very good vid mate. Thanks again for the time and effort you put into them.
Thanks for stopping by. Always nice to see the guns.
The Jag CD not having extra horsepower like the Sega CD add-on wasn’t itself a problem, the NEC (PC Engine/TG-16) CD add-on didn’t either and it was one of the best selling add-ons in gaming history! Modern day homebrew shows the Jag was pretty darn capable. And more space, CD-quality audio, and cheaper media was enough justification for a CD add-on. But the poor system sales meant it wasn’t worth learning how to properly harness the system (especially since it was poorly documented).
Great video! I also liked cybermorph, but it took awhile to get used to the controIs and it always irked me that the system never used textures other than a v p. I really wish there was a good jaguar emulator. I still have my jaguar, but it's just not practical space wise. I think one of the main downfalls was that complicated chip structure making it difficult to program for as you mentioned. It was hard to convince your friends at the time the jaguar was the system to have when the games looked the same as the Genesis and SNES and less of em to boot.
I would say many games were closer to Atari ST, and Commodore Amiga A500 quality wise seeing that a lot of developers who did not understand the system simply programed for the Motorola 68K SOC that was in the system, since it was what they knew from those earlier computers, and not for the more advanced chipsets which Atari gave little support for sadly.
Hover Strike is the system’s biggest hidden gem, IMO. I think most people who didn’t like it played it solo. I recommend playing it co-op, with one person driving and the other shooting. There’s a CD sequel that’s even better, but sadly my JagCD unit does not work. I own the sequel but have yet to play it.
12:43, 1st Arena Football Game Released was in 1988 with Arena Football and that had a re-release in 1993 with updated rosters, both on Commodore 64.
That screen shot of the ACDC game is clearly just a mockup with Streets of Rage assets and a hand cutout of someone holding an 🎸
Great, informative video.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it.
Didn't realize the Jag CD had such a low production. I guess I am pretty lucky to have a working one that I picked up in the early 2000s. I had no clue it did not add anything to the system other than playing the CD media though. Does that mean we could potentially have a jaguar flash cart that supports carts and cd games one day?
I believe so, but don't quote me. Retro HQ is currently in the final phase of developing the first Everdrive style flash cart and already did one for the Lynx. Exciting times.
There is a thread on the Jaguar section of Atari Age that is thousands of posts long about the SD Cart that's in production. Supposedly will implement CD game capability as well. The developer is SainT and is the same guy that did the Lynx cart too.
Cool guy, he actually advised on the technical specs for the CD add-on when I was putting this video together. The company is called RetroHQ.
Yeah me too owned a Jaguar CD mint condition with box instructions and 14 games CX have offered me over £400 for the unit never going to sell it one of my all-time favourite consuls all my mates keep saying it looks like a toilet and I say it’s worth more than your PS pro though!!
American Hero was finally officially released on the Xbox and PlayStation a few days ago! :D
Play it yet?
Damn, those sales stats really put things in perspective.
Whoa, I didn't know the Jaguar had such a crazy history behind it - I just thought it was poorly marketed and sold poorly but... wow. Awesome video.
Wow I never knew AVP 99 was originally a sequel to the Jag. It's a console I've been meaning to pick up for years, and really seems rich in intrigue.
Ah, I myself didn’t realize so many AVP games were released. It’s a bit hard to keep track. The best of the bunch is the arcade release by Capcom, that game is amazing!
@@Jenovi I used to have to go to the airport once a month and the only reason I looked forward to it was because they had that arcade game :)
I myself travel for work spending a sizable amount of time airports. Never seen an arcade set up in one though.
Great video 👌👌
Thanks for watching.
The Jaguar's CD add-on potentially allowed for larger games than carts allowed at the time. You have to put it in proper context, the mid-90s.the size of carts was severely limited by the cost of production, while CDs were relatively inexpensive to manufacture, allowing 600-700 MB games. This played a big role in the PS1 beating the N64, too. Also, there was no need for additional processing power in the CD add-on, as the Jag had plenty of untapped power as is. Additional memory for caching (to reduce in-game load times) was the only thing really needed. Ultimately, the Jaguar failed due to mismanagement (marketing, lack of developer tools, lack of capital, etc), not due to hardware limitations.
I’m not disagreeing with this statement, however the CD system launched after the system was already killed off by Atari. To me, not shipping it with the CD drive then making it an add-on nearly two years later even though it was a conceived addition prior to launch is silly. Two years on and your adding hardware? It better come with additional support that could have addressed some bottle neck issues the Jag faced. Unfortunately it didn’t as it was only a disc drive and nothing else.
CD audio quality was nice also. Some Jaguar CD games are good
Might i suggest different titles for the videos? While the consistent theme is on unreleased games, i fear that most new viewers may think that's just a simple list of titles, like many other on TH-cam and skip it. This in particular has very insightful information about the Jaguar, especially regarding the price cut executed too late, so a more attractive title could have been based on the system failure itself. I really like your videos, keep up the good work!
Thanks! It's honestly a bit of a struggle as I could do a video with a dedicated 20 minute deep dive of each system discussing info I rarely see covered. For Unreleased, it's a tradition to set the stage before covering the games. It's actually my most popular series, so by having it under Unreleased rather than a standalone video almost guarantees more eyes will see it. Really happy to head you're enjoying the channel and I appreciate the thoughtful comment.
Where did you get your information on the 32x selling over a million units I thought it only sold 650 thousand!
My favorite topic, the 32X. 😍
Here’s the deal. The system launched on Nov 21st 1994 with 1,000,000+ units ordered. By December 31st 1994 665,000 of these units were delivered. We don’t know the numbers after that, but all indication lean to solid sales with Sega making good in their orders and then some. Sega you pulling the plug on everything non Saturn in an effort to reallocate resources and save that system a year later. . The 32X was officially cancelled in the 1st quarter of 96, but like I said it was axed along with the Genesis and Sega CD in the 4th quarter of ‘95 in a similar fashion to the Jag where all support was pulled with the focus being on liquidating remaining stock.
@@Jenovi I bought the 32X at the end of its life cycle, for like $30 with Virtua Fighter as the pack in game. I don't doubt they sold 1 mil, because towards the end they were practically giving them away in stores.
2.5 million pre-orders and only 40K delivered. I think we've found the biggest nail in the coffin.
Another crazy observation. Atari spent maybe 50 million in total on this whole affair. How much did they lose of this money? Who knows. Now put that in comparison to the CD-I. No clue how much Phillips spent, but we know they lost over 1 billion dollars trying to make it work. Atari just didn’t have the capital to play with the big boys.
Thank you for the video. Rip Atari. The Atari from the 2000s was literally Infogrames
IMO Atari died in '98.
Jaguar owner from UK here and Jaguar CD had them both since the late 90’a is very dear to me ! used to love playing Hylander as a kid but I remember mortal kombat 3 had been mentioned A part for it on the jag cd think it was CVG magazine or a copy of an American magazine egm? Also primal rage
The one canceled game I wanted the most was Legions of the Undead from Rebellion. It looked like a cool underground RPG using the AvP engine and stop-motion models.
Had potential, using an enhanced AVP engine, down for Jag CD and Cart, exactly the type of game the Jaguar badly needed, but wasn't to be a Jaguar exclusive.
Jaguar version got as far as the basic engine running, but would of been cut down compared to the PC and PlayStation versions.
It was going to be Rebellion attempting Ultima Underworld.
@@thefurthestmanfromhome1148 Oh, I didn't know it was coming to other platforms. Cool concept anyway. I liked the "Hellraiser"-like models.
@@msd5808 from what's been claimed, Rebellion passed AVP over to Purple Hamptons Atari USA team as soon as they could, as they were expanding and wanted to be making multiplatform titles, AVP and CF were done under contract for Atari, once they were done and delivered, Rebellion were free to go cross platform, trouble is, Jason Kingsley isn't the most credible source and getting others to talk from Rebellion, has been nigh on impossible 😭
Great video. Surprised you said the jag is one of your favorite consoles. I am a former jag owner and I didn’t find they’re library of games very robust. I bought it around 2012 and I had an open mind but just didn’t have much fun with the games that I bought for it.
It really does depend on what you enjoy and the expectations you have. What I really love about it is that the entire platform was released as open source in 1998 making it a haven for retro style homebrews.
It's cool you talk bout RGC, I know them well!
That enemy with the mohawk in the AC/DC game screenshot is lifted straight from Streets of Rage.
That's a representation of what the game would've played.
I’ve watched this again a couple of times and would like to add the numbers did add up. This has been gone over ad-nauseom. The dual 32bit processors on the jag had access to a true 64bit date bus. Even to this day most games only use 32bit instructions and data path. The issue with Jaguar was that the tools supplied to devs were atrocious and most of them used the co-processor 6800 to actually run the games! This processor was not made for that, it was basically for controller instructions and traffic cop tasks. But lazy developers used it as the main processor as they were familiar with the Genesis and just winged it.
Secondly, Sam didn’t know how to court AAA developers. If you gave the Jaguar to Capcom, Konami, or any AAA dev they would have cranked out some amazing titles. Doom on Jaguar being a perfect example of what could be done by a AAA dev. It run wonderfully. AVP, by Rebellion Software was another game that scratched the surface of what the Jaguar could do. That was with a compressed development as Atari was pressuring developers to get rush titles. They were horrible with devs!
I visited Atari many times during the Jaguars time and can tell you that the machine was not the issue, it was a shit show of mismanagement! The employees were awesome and tried their best. Minter told me personally that Atari was it’s own worst enemy. If the Jaguar was in Sega or Nintendos hands you would have seen amazing things out of this misunderstood and mishandled machine.
Now all that being said there are at least a couple dozen really great games to play on the jaguar and the homebrew community is thriving like crazy. Unfortunately all of you are late to the party and now Jaguar games and systems are more expensive than NeoGeo. Your loss.
Bill Rehbock never talks about how his visit to Japan and meetings with Capcom,Konami etc went, in terms of trying to get them on-board as Jaguar developers.
I'd personally say Rebellion showed what the Jaguar was capable of with Skyhammer, more than AVP, would of liked to of seen the optimised AVP Engine used for Legions Of The Undead.
Also Carmack do a written from the ground up for the Jaguar,Doom.
Increased resolution and frame rate.
To put the claimed European Preorders numbers into perspective, Sega)Virgins own figures Autumn 1991
UK installed user bases
Master System 440,000
Mega Drive 120,000
This after a hugely successful marketing campaign by Sega/Virgin
Europen installed user bases
2 Million Master Systems
360,000 Mega Drives.
No way did Atari have 2.5 Million Preorders
But what is your thought on Club Drive :)
Did you own a Jaguar when it came out? I'm just curious because it was very much a system I wanted, but by the time the price dropped I had my eyes on a PlayStation. I'm on the fence about actually getting it today. I happened upon a 3-DO (another system I very much wanted) but playing it now doesn't do much for me, I'm unsure if a Jaguar will feel the same.
I had a friend who owned it around '95 with AvP. Honestly wasn't too impressed at the time. I didn't much care for the large controller, AvP which I didn't feel could compete against amazing game such as Doom and Marathon, and I had a 32X that I was also crazy about. As the system was released to open source and devs came of board to extend the life of the system, my interest again peeked. It's not a console I can recommend to many people, but if homebrews excite you, or you're into some of the classics on the system such as Tempest, I think it's worth the price of admission. It's a lot easier to appreciate it in hindsight than it was at the time.
One thing that jaguar had is game soundtracks, lovem
Heck yeah it did!
Oh man, I still want that AC/DC beat 'em up to be a thing. Also, surprised Atari never tried to port Primal Rage to the Jaguar.
I'd like to get a Jag. The game on top of my list is Super BurnOut. Such a smooth super scaler, it gives Super HangOn a run for it's money. Plus it's amazing CD quality soundtrack. At the time 3D was in and 2D scalers were less popular, but today those games still look good. The 32X and Jag were really good at it.
I'm glad Nintendo stuck with cartridges. The 64bit cartridge system is beautiful.
I'm a massive Super Scaler fanboy.
I bought an Atari Jaguar soon after launch. The only game I would call a Killer app wasn't Tempest 2000 that everyone claimed but Wolfenstein 3D. That was the best version of Wolfenstein I've ever played.
Doom with a Pro Controller is amazing.
@@Jenovi Doom is fun on Jaguar but it you play Wolfenstein on Jaguar you see just how bad Doom is in comparison.
Black ice white noise I have a very choppy code version I got off the net on my jag CD and to be fair it’s so advanced first time it was basically Gran theft auto three
0:45 What map is that? It has Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia but not East Germany or the USSR. Also Corsica seems to be part of Italy.
😂 Not a clue.
Did you purchase American Hero as it was ported to current consoles?
I didn’t. I mean I could, but playing it would be the lowest priority possible.
@@Jenovi I was tempted to pick it up as something to stream but ultimately passed.
@@FrogTony It would certainly make for an interesting evening.
Great video...jaguar reminds me of 32x, rarely nothing is over 30 fps
Crazy to find Jaguar Pitfall :Mayan Adventure is 30 fps and not even locked at that when the Sega Genesis and CD versions run at 60 fps.
Jaguar is a 2D monster on paper.
@@thefurthestmanfromhome1148 yup
@@thefurthestmanfromhome1148 genesis does...
Centipede 2000 should be on the list even though it is mostly just developer recollections about it. I'm sure you'll get Dactyl Joust or whatever the Jaguar remake of Joust was called since there is actual video of it.
I've got them both on my list. I'll cover Dactyl as Dactyl with the D's Maybe both games will be covered in by episode 4. Hopefully, I'll have something to show that's not well circulated.
@@Jenovi Hello. I am the Adventure 3D guy. Not sure why you could not get in touch with me. But we @ 3dsss had a working albeit incomplete version of a centipede like game running on the Jaguar. it was a simple set up but it maintained 60fps solidly and used all 3D polygons. We incorporated out GPU main RAM code work around along with an optimized Atari Based renderer.
@@GORF_EMPIRE Hey Gorf. It's been a while since I tried making contact (I send out a lot of messages and e-mails trying to verify info). I can't even remember how... Maybe Atari Age... Maybe Sector III? I can't remember. I did cover Centipede in part 3. I'm essential through the letter C (this is mostly alphabetic) though I've bypassed some games hoping for additional info before discussing them. I'm currently putting together part 4. That should cover every D and possibly E game. Would absolutely love to chat in DM's outside of TH-cam. I think there are a couple other games of your's I plan on discussing after the credits.
@@Jenovi Are you sure it was our version of Centipede? I know Atari was also working on one and it was halted.. that is when I decided to take a shot at it.
@@GORF_EMPIRE The version I covered was the Atari one. I was going to try contacting you again and discuss your games in a segment if contact was successful. I know Chris reached out to you pointing you this direction, so I'm glad to finally be chatting.
I agree with what's already been said in the comments about the Jaguar being hyped as a 64-bit system, only for most of the games looking & playing like 16-bit titles with a slightly better color palette. Plus, there were bigger & better libraries of games for the "inferior" consoles.
Ja-gwaar… not Jag-gū-waar… Drove me nuts listening to this dude. Not a 3 syllable word nor does it have 2 “g”’s.
Why the Panther never came out in 1991-2? If it would've been came out, the Jag would have been released in 1994-5, and could have been more powerful and it could have a large library with some of this unreleased gems in its own.
Good compilation Jenovi! Sorry for have seen this video so late...
@The Furthest Man From Home
the original design of the Panther that it was planned to came out in early 1991 with an Motorola 68000 working in 16/32 bit data bus is the one that you're mentioned.
That concept of the Panther (that I like to name as "Panther Mark I") it would been similar to a Sega Genesis buffed up, and it doesn't had been an important innovation in the gaming console industry, and it would have been a system not so hard to program.
The original Jaguar (something like a Jaguar Mark I at that time) could have been released in 8-10 months later, like you said, and it would been released as an 32-bit system, something like a most powerful Panther, that's why the both would've been released in so close dates.
But something that you forgot is that there was a second plan during the development of the Panther: a high end console with a Motorola 68000 working in 32-bit data bus.
The console would have been an pure 32-bit console and this concept was an important improve over the SNES, and the concept would've been similar to the Jaguar Mark I.
This last sight of the Atari Panther Design (nicknamed by me as the "Atari panther Mark II") would had been released in November/December of 1991 and the Jaguar would been released over 20-25 months later (1994), and this plan was scrapped during the Failure of the Lynx, because they needed that the handheld to been well sold during the development of the Panther Mark II, but the commercial Failure of the Lynx killed all hope of the releasing of that console and the development moved to the creation of an Atari Jaguar (that was the one actually released) as a heir of that Panther Mark II but buffed out to manage as a 32/64 bit console, making a console hard to program.
Did you know about the Jaguar's "Tom" core actually is the Panther Mark II? Well the most of the Jaguar games used only that core, because of the development kits that it was made to program games in the Panther, and the "Jerry" core only could been accessed through complicated multiprocessor techniques that was practically inexistent in 1992-3. That mistake of the development kits was because the rushing over the development of the Jaguar, making a system Hard to program and an overpriced junk that only graved all the hope of Atari to get back in the Videogames industry as the king.
My comment was referring that history, not the story of the development of the Panther Mark I that you mentioned. Atari couldn't manage to maintain the development of both consoles because of the Failure of the Lynx, that makes me to think if the Lynx would been a successful handheld, Atari could have been released the panther.
My other thought is: "if Atari had risked and launched the Panther Mark II anyway? Would had been the Panther Mark II the savior of Atari? And, would have been the Jaguar a powerful console thanks to the larger time of development?" Try to answer that questions... And thanks for reading...
Always appreciate reading your thoughts. I think a late ‘94 release with a deep library of exclusive games and the cd drive being built in would have made the Jag a massive success.
@@Jenovi I always like to imagine a Jaguar using a MIPS core and Being a Rival to the N64. It would have been a total success back then.
@The Furthest Man From Home it's because of that why I also think the Panther would saved the day in an indirect way.
Panther was doomed at the start, and if it would been released and Atari would realized about its failures the jaguar protect would have been changed its direction and Atari would made a more competent hardware.
I like to imagine how could have been a jaguar running with a 64bit MIPS chip, with the same silicon graphics platform that used the N64.
@The Furthest Man From Home that's right. And is the reason that I said the word "imagine". Is only anthology that Atari would have been supported by the publishers if the Panther was a failure, but it exists some stories of companies that actually could restored it's reputation after a bad series of failures. Apple is one of those, Samsung also, and I think that it isn't crazy think that Atari could had restored its reputation if an hypothetical MIPS Jaguar could have been an interesting product. The people could sold as a direct rival to the N64 and it would have been an possibly could have been a momentarily success. I don't think that Atari could sold more Jaguars than N64s but it would have been an important rival.
And going to your comparison between Sega situation and the hypothetical scenario of an Atari looking for a redemption is a little absurd. Because you're comparing a US company along with a Japanese company. The philosophy of the industries is different between that countries, and Sega always was kneed by rushing out its productions in a country where the people wants everything fast and now (that's the reason because Yuji Naka, Naoto Oshima, among others abandoned SEGA); but Atari is different, and its philosophy is adjusted to the Occidental business. A place where things are postponed the number of times necessary to make them well. So, that's why I think that you're comparison is a little nonsense.
Hey Jenovi, any chance you know what happened to Vince? I loved his videos, but they just stopped. I was hoping maybe he made a new channel or something, if not, I hope he’s at least well.
Not a clue. He pops on time to time, but I haven't seen him in at least a year now.
I had a flyer with an ad for Black Ice White Noise on Jaguar. It was canceled, as Native.
Was going to talk about it in tomorrows episode, but I moved it back to the one after it. It was already too long and I'm running short on time.
Raiden was really good on the Jaguar. I had the Jaguar, Jaguar CD, 3DO, and 32X
I wish you would have covered the Arena Football '95 more than you did. I have the letter and mini footballs from V Real Interactive from my pre-order of the game and 20 years later, I bought the cart from Best Electronics of Arena Football '95 (unfinished game).
Thank goodness for Best Electronics.
So Artemis was going to be similar to Power Crystal on the unreleased M2?
In short, yes, same game. Unfortunately I believe that the game was nothing more than a smoke screen to raise money with no intention of ever releasing.
@@Jenovi something Whittaker has done since.
He used the Andrew Rosa podcast interview to try and get big publishers interested in Blue Sock Studios rebooting Power Crystal on modern platforms..
Is using Twitter to do the same for this proposed Spiritual Successor to AVP
The Edge and Next Generation magazine M2 Previews of Power Crystal were just attempts by Whittaker to get a new publisher to take on the game, save Perceptions from going under, it failed.
Wow I had no idea that they had 2.5 million preorders. If they where able to have fulfilled then the video game landscape would be very different today
Another thing Atari dropped the ball on is no focusing on the European market. They were having success there, not in the United States. They should have pushed back the US launch at the very least and focused on their strength first. Incredibly dumb to abandon their strength in hopes of recapturing a market not to keep on the Atari brand.
Regarding that t ludicrous 2.5 Million European Pre-orders figure,which supposedly came from Atari UK Marketing Manager, Darryl Still and was stated as fact in a Retrogamer magazine article..
I'm going to try and find an apparent interview with Bob Gleadow in Atari ST Review, Spring 1994, where Bob is supposed to of made the claim that:
* 1000 Jaguars are being built per day (approx) with a target figure
of 5000 per day---estimated sales for the system were between 700,000 and 9000,000."
Bob was Darryl Still's boss, so would of had access to far more information than Darryl.
It's very unlikely Bob would of missed an opportunity to point out such staggering figures for the Pre-Order market, regarding the Jaguar in Europe
I bought my Jag after i saw AVP in demo. I was very, very impressive.
Do you still own it? What are some of your favorite games?
@@Jenovi Yes, it works perfectly. Today, i played I-War. I really like this game. My favorites are AVP, T2000 and Iron Soldier. I also like lots of games on the Jag. Skyhammer, Hover Strike, Wolfenstein, Cannon Fodder, Flashback, Pinball Fantasies, and also Cybermorph.... ^_^
did they end up in a Arizona land fill again?
New Mexico
Another World deserves to be on every console!!
Atari vcs 2 should have some new true exclusive atari games for it on launch who would love for this to happen?
Wait a minute...I had a Jaguar around launch and I distinctly remember Wolfenstein in 1994, and Doom at the end if 1994 'ish. I also know the cost was relatively cheap to even the Genesis/Sega CD, and Snes. It was $249.00 new and looked far better price wise to my 3DO.
Great work, but it seems the mismanagement at ATARI, which lead to them rushing out the console, and not providing good developer support for it are what led to its downfall.
That is without a doubt a major contributing factor.
They rushed the system out to get an edge but it wasn't ready. Late 80's and Early 90's was good we had a competition in consoles and EA hadn't ruined the market yet.
Even a Europe only launch in 93 followed by a full launch in North America in '94 on would have largely benefited the Jaguar's health IMO.
I am an ATARI lifer...VCS, SuperCharger, 800XL, Lynx...so when the Jaguar was released I was going to be buying it. I bought mine in early 1994...read EGM...& waited for the games. I definitely think AvP & DOOM really helped sales of the Jaguar in late 1994/Christmas 1994. And I would think everyone who bought a Jaguar in the mid-90s owns AvP...so I don’t think that sales number for AvP is false.
Jaguar really made me a happy guy in the 90`s I can't complain abouy it, since I had a Sega genesis I would never fell like I had not enough games to play. Too bad this launch failure to Europe, it could had been a success if all those 2.5 millions had been sold. I still have it, but I got my CD unity a few ears ago :) . Very happy to be one of the 20 thousands to have one. Bu tI still need a pro controller.
Get the aftermarket pro controller. I have a video covering it. It's very well made.
The framerate was the biggest downfall. The games looked great if you were willing to overlook it. AvP also retailed for $70, another downfall.
Sometimes frame rate issues were result of poor coding.
Jane Whittakers spaghetti A. I code, running on the 68000,killed the frame rate on AVP
The 2.5 Million European Pre orders claim, supposedly from Darryl Still is so far from the actual UK situation, it's unreal.
For a start, Paul Welch was Atari UK General Sales manager.
But you've only to look at UK magazine coverage from the time.
In the UK Press (Xmas '93)
Bob Gleadow of Atari UK was still telling people to expect the UK Jaguar to launch at £200 and that he expected some 10,000 machines in the first wave to hit the UK and these would be allocated to specific branches of HMV and Virgin games.
Thornley Distribution would be handling allocation of machines to independent stores/chains.
SDL also named as UK distributors for the Jaguar
By January 1994..
An unknown spokesperson for Thornley Distribution, was being quoted as saying they had run out of machines and had no idea when they'd get new stocks in.
The limited availability of Jaguar machines had simply meant a rise in prices for import machines here in the UK,with the proposed UK launch date of the
1 Sth March, being put back until there were decent
supplies available for the UK.
The intended UK distribution of
thousands of consoles before
Christmas failed to materialise, with only a small number reaching HMV
and Virgin on the 23rd December.
That was the real UK situation, if you wanted a machine early, went the import route, you could be paying upto £400 for a console and £80 a game.
Atari UK responded by saying:
"... those people who
have ordered early will be
supplied on a first-come,
first-served basis."
Darryl Still,
Marketing Manager,
Atari UK.
Peter Walker, Atari UK's public
relations officer "The
company recognises that the
overwhelming demand for the jaguar
in Europe has led to enthusiasts
willing to pay up to double the price.
Atari UK regrets this and will not be
able to catch up with demand unt1l
after the official launch later this year.
However, we are in the process of
setting up a consumer hotline to
advise the public of which retailers
have Jaguars in stock."
That was it.
Nobody from Atari UK was talking about 2 million machines on Pre order.
the “jayg u were”
Jaguar's hardware didn't need additional processors on the Jag CD, it's hardware equaled and surpassed PSOne in multiple categories, it's only hindrance is its buss being a tiny bit smaller. But ti could have handled RE2 no problem.
It had a buggy CPU so studios used its 16 bit 68000 as the main CPU and they had to take turns with the memory, no dev kits meant nobody could utilize it even if they did work out a way to stop its main CPU crashing.
@@humansrants1694 that's really not what I read about the subject matter... It was more of the devs an experience and utilizing multiple processors. Over familiarity with the 68000.
But you know what maybe I should give it a go. Not porting RE2 mind you but I do have a have over been working on that would qualify for 32X specs which should run fine on Jaguar hardware if I were to choose it appropriately. Though I'm not quite sure how is port the music since it's currently coded for the Genesis base hardware. I could do the PC port method of capturing via Genesis model 1 into a USB capture card and playback the encoded file...
Other CD add-ons did bring RAM with them to buffer the CD. The Jag already had a ton of Ram. I don't understand that computer argument also. A debugged Tom? Motorola had long stopped the production run and it did not look like they should restart. SH2 in the Jag to make it even more complicated? I don't think that the addon can deactivate the 68k and introduce a MIPS R3400.
I too like the Jayguear
There was a Jaguar Bomberman game apparently.
Covering it in the next episode.
Atari = Nolan Bushnell. After he left the company, they couldn't make a decent console. The Jaguar was an ok console but the company underestimated Sega and Nintendo as competition.
That more, or less sums it up, and while Jack Tramiel tried his best to save the company, and did alright with the computer division more so in Europe than the US, he could not save a ship that had many small holes, and was slowly sinking before he had even got there.
@@CommodoreFan64 Yeah, I think a lot of people, especially my fellow Americans, see Atari's downfall as simply a video game company out competed by Nintendo. A lot of people don't even know about their computer line, much less that being their primary focus in the mid to late 80's. Of course in hindsight, it seems foolish for them to neglect game consoles (let's face it, they barely tried with the 7800 and they failed to produce a 16-bit console) in favor of computers, but that's only because we now know the cheap IBM clones of the early 90's would crush every other computer platform.
@@ressljs I'm American, and that's the way I saw it for many years, till the old PBS show Computer Chronicles started spotlighting Atari computers several times in the late 80's, and early 90's, but we also need to remember the cost of an Atari ST/Falcon, same of the Commodore Amiga line was fairly high when compared to something like an NES Action set which by 88/89 could be had for around a $100 on sale., when Atari/Amiga computer was 2 or 3 times that, and they never marketed their computers , or did value packs like they did over in UK/Europe.
Doug R. You have no clue what you’re talking about. Don’t just say stuff just to say something.
Absolutely true...
1. It was too expensive when launched
2. Sega launched the 32x just to slow Jag and 3D0 sales. It worked really well.
3. The system had crappy development tools and a few hardware bugs. If they had waited and spent a few more months in development on the hardware side of things (given there were no games in 1993 anyways) they could have a better tools, and a great launch in 1994.
There would be no great launch with a 300$ PSX from the co-inventor of the CD next to it. 50% of the games would have had to come out in 1993 and then casual and ports for everybody who had the system in the living room anyway and wants Nintendo style short load time fun.
Sadly, I sold my Jaguar, Jag CD and about 20 games around five years go. It was all mint condition and brought in about $1200. Can you imagine what it would get now? The funny thing is, I wouldn't sell it now. Seller's remorse... sniff... sniff...
I would have caeed about that price or a little more. What’s up with Jag prices? They running out of control?
I had the Jaguar with the CD drive . ATARI treated everyone like crap , it seems . Lucasarts quit business when Warner sold ATARI . It was outdated by the time it was released , like the 3DO . That means they both should have dropped their prices ALOT SOONER .
The Tramiel's should of nurtured relationships with developers, not treated them with contempt.
Made sure the Jaguar wasn't rushed out, had the chipsets revised until the bugs were ironed out, ensured development tools and libraries were of high quality.
Gone for exclusive titles, not long in the tooth 16-bit Amiga and MD SNES conversions, worked with Virtuality, but no...
Dr David Doak wrote N64 Goldeneye A. I routines from scratch for Rare, Jane Whittaker's framerate killing AVP A. I routines were never used, as Jane never worked for RARE.
Jane has since changed his account after being exposed as a liar about his role on Goldeneye.
Jaguar one of the most underrated consoles all time. One of the reasons it failed is because Atari didnt have good relations with the media in the USA because Atari burned / screwed over many in the media after the video game crash in the mid 1980s so many senior execs in media did not trust Atari by the time Jaguar came out. Thus, most video game magazines bashed anything to do with Jaguar and instead tried to convince you to buy Nintendo Sega and Playstation. The 3 aforementioned companies gave loads of freebies to media in exchange for good reviews meanwhile atari was so broke they had to sue sega for some old bullshit to get some more money to Keep the Jaguar train going... Atari gave no freebies to media. And older media people still had fresh in their mind atari failures of the 10 years previous to 1993. SO Jaguar was not given a fair shake. Cybermorph was quite a good launch title but most US reviews said it wasnt good. Raiden was a great shooter on Jaguar released not long after system launch and the media never got people excited about it. it was a really really great game actually. Finally the media had to cave when Tempest 2000 was just way too awesome. And then awesome ports of wolf 3d and doom came out along with the great AVP and Iron soldier. There were more good and great games for jag too and the Jag was always a fairly priced system at 250 bucks or less and games were fair too. That is why Jag has hardcore fan base because its actually far from a terrible system its a cool system with many cool games. Any moron you see with the typical comment like "Jaguar sucks so bad" is just parroting bullshit they read or heard somewhere. ;) Likely they are a nintendo fan boy like AVGN who think only nintendo makes the good games.... pfft.
I really like the system and think it gets a bad rap.
I'm very sympathetic to the atari cause. But the console was already outdated at launch practically. For it to compete in 1996. It would need to able to run Quake, and Tomb Raider and as far as I'm aware that's impossible for those games to run on the Atari Jaguar. John Carmack said it could barely run DOOM.
The only thing it could do in 1994 was die or forget about the Americans at least and focused on Europe who actually wanted the console for awhile.
I like how he says "Jaguar"
The Jaguar pronunciation debate is real my friend.
i hate it lol
:o)
Did jaguar had only mono audio channel, it seems like it , I heArd that the gpu cpu handles audio channel
16 bit stereo. There was no dedicated sound chip so it was all software based. Honestly, I'm not overly familiar with how it was accomplished though.
Wow how in the world it had 16 bit stereo and software base with out a sound chip ? And the cpu/gpu, well Tom or is it Tom and jerry? And it did this With out distortion and video lag , What the hell pretty paranormal lol
This explains the low price for the unit. And why no cart slot “doors” ?
The Furthest Man From Home thanks for this it makes sense
The Furthest Man From Home why they didn’t use all risc cpu instead of a having a 68,000 micro (Texas instruments?) lol maybe the budget ? And yes increase the internal cpu and blister ram or cache? if that was so it would it succeed I hope
I bought the Jag on day one and bought all the launch games witch were 3 cause Cybermorph came with the system. Dino dudes , Raiden, and Trevor Mcfur we're the other games. I even got the CD unit. With better developers the system could have done better
I had to laugh at the intro "This is the Jaguar, and here's why it is bad, btw Atari are filthy filthy liars.". I guess that is part of the story of unreleased games. ^_^ Wow not many produced, no wonder I can't find any affordable Jaguars. I mean it has some charm to me but no way I'm paying THAT much for one. :\
😂 Yeah, I think I pissed some people off with this one. I actually like the system, but facts are facts.
It's almost like Atari had no concept of how many units they needed to sell out of the gate.
While the Jaguar wasn't the best system at launch, they could have cut prices significantly sooner, like a cut to $199 a year after before the other more expensive consoles released. This would have moved more units and also saved Atari from losses from selling it at even lower prices.
I'm not particularly criticizing what they did, because they probably couldn't have foreseen it, but I think they could have handled it better.
kool beanz
The sad thing about the Jag is it had top hardware designers (famous for creating the ZX81) working on it and they didn't get the last 4-5 months to complete the design which resulted in it being crappy to develop for. I think they went on the form ARM or something.
So many mistakes from Jaguar. The management must have been in complete disarray.
Wasted potential. Really should have launched first and foremost in the UK before trying to spend the money required to reenter the American market.
@@Jenovi I still can't believe they got over 2 million pre-orders. If they had their sh*t together Atari would have made bank on the Jaguar. The brand was still very strong back then and I happen to know the older folks were quite excited about it too after being let down by the 5800. With a properly finished design and then shipping those million of pre-sold units, the consoles success would have been assured.
@@iwanttocomplain that's because they didn't have anything like those numbers, the source of the claim, is one of the least credible figures in the community
@@thefurthestmanfromhome1148 oh ok. I should say, the Jaguar designers were previously responsible for the Commodore Amiga, not the ZX81 iirc.
64 is more than 32 and 16! Do the math!
lol
Never been good at maths
I think they could have still made it if they kept making new games and pushing the console. I mean, all you have to do is keep making games and keep supporting your hardware. That's it. Like they could have been a moderate success, but not a 100% nose bomb.
I get your apprehension, Atari did lie about hardware sales...I actually believe AVP sold that much. You have to understand, this game was an entire new breed of game. People wanted this game and had it been released when it was intended with a well stocked Jaguar and we might be looking at a completely different haming landscape.
Fair enough, and quite possibly it did by 1998. However, as this is the only source and it's proven unreliable it's impossible to say.
@@Jenovi
Hey, I could be way off the mark by a country mile. I just remember buying my Jaguar at launch (64-bit promise and Doom on console) and getting close to the last one. People actually offered me well over asking price just to get one. It was the same reaction when AVP released and none of my friends could actually find a Jaguar for sale. I live in a big city....which makes it even more unbelievably. My best friend at the time rented his with AVP from a mom and pop operation. He wound up keeping it for himself and letting them charge his parents credit card for it....man they were pissed. Finally, I knew someone else with a Jaguar and AVP! ;)
@edek
Yes, by today's standards...but in 1994 it was a jaw dropper. I remember the first time we ever heard a Predator taunt us in that game. It was the only time in my entire life that I actually got a pang of fear while playing a game. It started to whisper "You're going to die...I'm going to kill you...Want some candy?" It was even better if you had a 6 button pro-controller with the very handy shoulder buttons (I did and still do although not at AVP's launch).
No one in the year 1994 had seen anything like that game. I am a huge Doom fan, I literally chased Doom for years, trying to get the perfect console conversion. I first got a 3DO....fail, I then went with the 32X...nope, Jaguar...AVP was great but Doom with no music pass...finally realizing how much money was wasted on this I decided to build my very first PC (486DX2). I finally had Doom and could have done it way sooner had I not been so stupid.
Doom does not have the same look or detail that AVP had. Having the ability to play as all three characters was also something completely unheard of in 1994...seriously it had no equal at the time. Doom 2 was not out yet and neither was Heretic nor Hexen (three character choices like AVP).
Unfourtunately, it has not aged as well as Doom and given the choice to only have Doom or AVP (Jaguar), obviously I choose Doom. Doom is the game that got me into the FPS genre and is now my favorite. Before Doom all I wanted was fighting and brawler beat em' ups. Doom changed it all, I used to edit levels before and after school. I remember bringing my PC over to my best friends house and we played Doom for 3 days straight, finally crashing where we sat. We each had our own PC's and would challenge each other with time on nightmare setting...God that was fun...I still play Doom today as it is a classic that has stood the test of time.
@The Furthest Man From Home That's what happens if you don't archive your online interviews on Wayback Machine. All that stuff is lost immediately the moment the original source is killed.
AvP for Jaguar was a true marvel of its time. It literally sold consoles. Unfortunately, it was the Jaguar's only marvel.
You could say they could make a impact by using the just won lawsuit for millions. By pricing the Jag extremely low they could use the lawsuit money instead they wasted it
Jaguar 2 The best consol!
The last system was the original xbox. From then on they became consumer appliances. When I was a kid Playstation n64 3do jaguar and my Sega saturn all played different games. The Xbox 360/one/series and the ps3/ps4/ps5 play the exact same titles call of duty and gta V. That would not be possible growing up you could not put an nes game on ps2 that many generations selling the same product. They couldn't get away selling a game 12 years straight in the 90s
I bought the Jag with CD new for $100 back in 99. As I collected games thinking they would be important historically. The Jag CD was the poorest conceivedand executed product in Ataris history. Mine works but has mabe 6 hours of play time, but the cheap plastic and the fact some carts do not read using the cd attachment makes this thing more of a campy addon bought for its absurdity.
You can’t play Cart games with the cd attachment connected?
@@Jenovi a few just dont read. Most do. Club drive and wolfenstein will not work for me with the attachment on, but the rest do.
Havoc High Seas OST
I can't help but keep the OST in my " MUSIC I USE OFTEN" folder.
Wish i pulled the trigger on the jaguar last year. It was cheaper then. Now you see the system on sale for 400 to 500. And sorry to say I dont think its worth that. Unless a lot of games are included. Want one bad though so I may cave.
You shouldn’t pay any more than $150-200 usd for a loose system. Anymore and someone is taking advantage.
Jaguooowr
Jag U Arrrrrrrrrr!
We had high hopes for Atari but too little too late so it goes
The console is incredible as it's now open source opening up a fantastic opportunity for home-brew games.
@@Jenovi very cool I did not know this thank you!