GREAT video. Thank you so much! I am working on putting together an equipment order and I didn't understand why I would use a wedge top vs a groove top. This was helpful in making that decision. Thanks!
AWESOME explanations, especially on why you put an open foundationless frame between brood frames drawn out but not between uncapped honey frames. I currently use frames with foundations, but, we are going back to Africa, soon, in the bush and I'm going to be teaching some of our people there how to keep bees and they won't have access to foundations. They are going to be building hives from scratch. I'm considering teaching them with the Warre hives instead of Langstroth.
I've reserved my first package in April. I built my own medium bodies, covers and bottom. Bought grooves medium frames from MannLake. I also bought Rite-cell plastic foundation. I have no drawn comb of any kind. I would like the package to start and eventually be only on foundationless frames. And not use the Rite-cell.Should I place the Rite-cell in some frames with a foundationless frame in the middle and put the queen cage on top of the foundationless frame, to get them to draw that frame first? Once they have that frame drawn straight on the foundationless frame, then remove the Rite-cell frames? Or should I just only start with all foundationless frames? This is my first year/hive. Thanks!
The big thing starting off foundationless is you have to keep an eye on them. You could cut some ritecell down to strips and put that in the frames, that might help them get off to a good start without having full sheets of foundation in there. You can go completely foundationless to start, but you have to make sure that first frame or 2 is properly oriented , after that they will be fine. The biggest stumbling block starting off is the queen cage causing them to draw funky comb and it never gets fixed. Level side to side is VERY Important.
How would you begin a brand-new hive with foundationless? Will the bees just go nuts since there is no already drawn comb for you to layer the empty frames between?
A brand new hive with no drawn comb, just means you need to make sure the hive is absolutely level side to side and that you've got the starter something on the frames for them to start on (I of course like the wedge top frames with the wedge turned 90 degrees and glued/stapled back in). With a new hive like that you would also want to check out their progress in just a couple days, which you would probably be doing anyway to release the queen. The biggest problem people get with foundationless with a package is what to do with the queen cage. I just zip tie it to the underneath of the top bar of the middle frame. If they attach comb to the cage you'll just cut it away when you remove the cage. Once you get one good frame they should follow that pattern as long as the hive stays level.
Hi there, I am a new comer to beekeeping (in the UK) and want to produce honey on the comb (cut-comb), so your video has been very useful (after much searching). Also like the added benefits of possibly reducing mites. Any further advice on how to produce cut comb would be gratefully received. One concern I do have is how much extra effort there is each year to build the comb vs draw out the foundation? Do you think there is any difference? I am currently working with foundation but will use your advice to interlock foundationless frames between foundation frames... Thank you!
It's a trade off when you are doing comb honey. I did crush and strain for my first 4 or 5 harvests until the bees paid for an extractor. So I was in a similar situation as you with them having to start over each year. I think it costs the bees Time more than anything else to build the comb. Overall honey harvests will be larger if you extract VS them having to build comb each year. As for the difference between you giving them foundation and them building foundationless I think it's negligible. What little help the foundation gives them if any is negated by the fact that it's in their way from how they would naturally draw comb.
Awesome video! Great lead on Kelly Bees, as well. I am going for a Long Lang as my first hive, and you just sold me on these wedge top frames. Thanks for taking the time to explain these. I had never heard of them.
John Cates You are very welcome. I have a friend that is doing a Horizontal hive (Long Lang), I keep meaning to do a video of an inspection. We'll we looking at it again 2 weeks from today, so maybe then. Thanks for watching
There are of course a lot of variables that affect how long it takes the bees to draw out the frame, but I'll give you a recent example. I had a 5 frame NUC draw out a deep frame in a week. I have full size hives that knock them out in a day or so. I personally believe they draw them faster than foundation, because nothing is in their way, the festooning bees can work both sides at the same time.
i watched michael bush talk on here, he says that todays bees are much larger nowadays and that gives more houseroom to mites, presumably verroa mites, you refer to mites in the video what is your experience with the cells "downsizing" when foundation less?
I don't measure on a regular basis (haven't measured in a few years in fact), but when I did measure the core broodnest areas on comb were consistently smaller than 5.4 mm. If you are coming off of 5.4 foundation, the first generation is going to draw something like maybe 5.1 (this is an avg), then if you take those bees and give them fresh foundationless they will draw smaller still. What size you end up at is dependent on 2 factors how far north or south are you and how high or low in elevation you are. If you take the 5.1 comb from the 1st generation and give it to a new hive, they of course will be able to skip that step and the newly raised bees can then draw step 2. Hope this helps.
A guy at our beekeeping meeting said he used slotted top bar frames and filled the slot with wax and then trimmed it up level let harden and then putting a cotton string about as wide as slot and covered it with wax when he was doing foundation less frames. He claimed it worked well and he could get more foundation less wax for cut comb honey just another idea. cool vid I may try not using foundation next year.
The frames we purchased are wired frames, so there are two crimped wires running horizontally through the center of each frame. We are picking up two foundationless nucs this weekend - already on small cell. We have never worked with foundation less frames before. I have some nice, wide tongue depressors here and they fit pretty well wedged between the top and bottom bars of the frames. I was toying with the idea of wedging them into the frames to provide some additional support so that the frames can be extracted. Any thoughts on this? Any tips on handling foundation less frames in the heat of summer? I understand that they are more easily damaged and have to be handled in a certain way, but haven't seen that elaborated on. Thanks, Sue
littlealbatross1 The tongue depressors will be more helpful at the top for a definitive place for them to start. You can run fishing line tight in the foundationless frames, this will give them more strength. The big thing is you don't want to turn the frame parallel to the ground if the comb is unsupported. As for extracting, any frame even wood frames with plastic foundation will blow out if you don't treat them right in the extractor. You just have to take it easier on the foundationless. 95% of my mediums are foundationless and I extract tangentially and rarely have blow outs. Make sure your hive is level side to side, this is the MOST important thing.
What exactly do you mean by, "extracting them tangentially? I can't picture that in my mind how the combs are laying exactly in the honey extractor / baskets. Thanks!@@rwjedi
@@steveandrews8301 radially are like spokes on a wheel, tangentially would be like perpendicular to the rod in the middle of the extractor. This causes the most outward force for the honey, and the most stress, luckily my baskets support the wax
I have 2 hives and started foundationless. My hive is a mess and its a disaster to take honey out. We need to follow someone until we know what we are doing.
Thank you! So you feel that using a empty frame takes (appx.) the same time as the plasticell/foundation? Thats great because Id rather not us the plasticell/foundation if I can avoid it. Q:I have slotted frames now and not the kind that you have on your video any suggestions? Thanks again rw!
I currently have all Kelley slotted top, grooved bottom frames that the plasticell snaps into. Can I still use these or should I buy all new wedge tops? I hate to waste what I have. Maybe I can just put a shim into the notched part to use as a starter?
You should be able to use paint mixers or tongue depressors in there and they will work just fine. I have used frames that I popped the plastic foundation out of and they drew the comb out fine. I'm not suggesting that you go with out a comb guide, but sometimes it will be ok. LOL
If you do not have drawn comb can you use plastic unwaxed foundation for the guides? I know the bees do not like plastic even with wax, but I do not want them drawing comb on the plastic foundation, only using it for guide then when they draw the foundationless , replace with more foundationless frames?
You can try that and it might work. Ultimately if you are level side to side and they have a good comb guide in the middle of the frame they will probably be just fine. Just check them often, one good comb leads to another. one bad comb leads to another. ...
Question. I heard on TH-cam that the honey bee from plants that have been treated with insecticides does bring traces of chemical back and it gets absorbed into the wax. Do you have any information that disputes what I heard. But I do understand with the mite treatment. Thank you
That is my understanding as well, that the chemicals from the environment do get absorbed into the wax. So as painful as it is you should rotate your comb. Just cut it out and they will make fresh comb.
For my first 6 or 7 years I just did crush and strain, sacrificing the comb for honey and wax (I was also too cheap to buy an extractor). 2 years ago I bought an extractor and have been extracting the foundationless with little trouble. with the basket, running them tangentially works better than radially, but I may try wiring some frames and see if radial(spokes on a wheel) will hold up. As long as the wax isn't brandnew foundationless extracts fine.
Thanks for the video and the tips. I started 2013 all foundationless and this year one hive of bees started building on the bottoms of the frames justa bove the brood chamber. Some of the brace comb was at 90 degrees to the frames. They even built from the bottom toward the top and ended up 3 frames over when they reached the top. Wow ! Oh I nearly forgot to mention. When I first set this hive on its base (at the end of last Summer) the frames ran East & West. Then about a month ago I moved the hive and set the hive so that it had the frames running North & South. I took out the mess and rubber banded their new comb into frames. Maybe that will help get them straight. I was about to order some foundation until you reminded me of all the reasons why I shouldn't. Maybe I can use my old wax and melt it down to use for starter strips if it turns out to be necessary. At first I thought maybe I had my hives out of level. But the hive couldn't have been that far out of level. ((-: Thanks again for the video.
Nice video, thanks. Couple of things I'll mention if you'd like to verify on your side because I also don't like random commenters telling me I'm wrong :) As you correctly point out, foundationless frames are cheaper and have natural mite prevention, so I really don't understand why more beekeepers don't go this way. I think it's just old habits, and the belief that spin extractors will break the comb, but my experience is that medium/Dadant/Illinois supers are just fine. A key benefit of natural comb (from foundationless frames) is that small cell size makes it difficult for a mite to survive. You said that larvae in smaller cells emerge more quickly, but actually the bee development cycle remains unchanged regardless of cell size. Naturally drawn worker cells have less (no) space for the mite to move around in and many mites either die or can't develop normally. Since it was first engineered in the early 1900s, foundation cell size has increased because the thinking was that bigger bees make more honey, but the extra space also led to a quicker mite infestation. When Varroa appeared in the west, the large cells provided a great welcome! The development cycle approach however can be used if you install drone foundation and get the queen to lay drones. I started foundationless two years ago and the first natural comb was all drone, and I couldn't figure out why. Then a year ago I added a bunch more and this time I had a high proportion of female to drone comb. Maybe it's to do with the time of year or location of the frame in the brood box? That would be an interesting second round question for you: Can you induce natural drone and/or worker comb, or is it just a random choice by the bees?
I have no problem extracting deeps if needed, but generally don't because they are all in the brood boxes and that will be their winter stores and if a hive has too much I'll just take and give to another hive or split. On the development time issue, I'm basing my comments on information from Michael Bush at www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm , and he bases his on work done by Huber over a century ago. I've never measured it myself (I've got other bee work to do LOL), but I just know that with the foundationless and local survivor genetics I don't lose hives to varroa or anything else except starvation (winter) if I leave them too light and don't have a candy board on. As to the drone issue with foundationless frames I covered that in my comment section of the video, but the basics of it are this: Bees want a certain amount of drone comb in the hive as well as a certain amount of drones (depending on the time of year for the drones themselves), if you have been running foundation in your hives the bees have had to jam the drone comb in any nook and cranny they can find (that's why a lot of people's top bars are covered with burr comb (mine tend to be pretty clean). When you put the first foundationless frame in the hive, the bees are like "hallelujah the gods have finally allowed us to make drone comb" and so they do, if you remove it from the hive and put another foundationless in they will repeat. Instead what you should do is slowly move the drone comb to positions 1&2 or 9&10 in the box and continue to feed foundationless into the middle of the brood nest, and they will build beautiful worker comb.
Super, thanks for the reply. I thought I'd read on the Bush site that the development cycle wasn't shortened but you straightened me right out--Thanks for the correction on my "correction." I'll go have a look at the drone comments. The new Google+ doesn't show them. I didn't realize drone cell production was such a hot topic, and a Google search products several like this www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?229937-Foundationless-frames-how-much-drone-brood
Doug Brown Actually, Doug, you are absolutely right about the lifecycle being unchanged. A worked bee takes 21 days to emerge. It did a century ago... just as it does today. I'm a big fan of Michael Bush myself and realize he cites Miller and Huber, too. I saw him speak back in November (have vids on my channel). I keep struggling with claims that the lifecycle us shortened. I'm reminded of many works written over a century ago that state it takes 21 days for a worker bee to emerge, well before sized foundation existed (i.e. everything was natural cell). I buy in to the thought of there not being enough room for mite nourishment in small cell.
Jason Morgan Michael Bush also says he has measured it in an observation hive as well. I don't spend too much time checking that sort of thing I'm too busy making splits. :)
Anything will work if you let it (with in reason), but I don't think it's necessary to put the wax on there or the cotton string. If all you have are the slotted top bar frames and you want to do foundationless, glue something into the slot for a guide and be done with it. If you are ordering frames specifically for foundationless I am partial to the wedge top frames, pop the wedge out, turn it 90 degrees and glue/staple back in place for a guide.
If you put an empty frame between 2 frames full of brood, won't that mess up the order? I have heard you shouldn't change the order of the frames in a box.
That is a loose rule that applies to putting frames back in a box after an inspection, because of differences in how the comb is drawn out or burr comb the frames will go back together best in their original order. However when you are getting new frames of foundationless drawn out your larger concern is where are they going to be drawn out the best and fastest, and that is going to be between 2 frames of capped brood. Thank you for watching...
Loved the information. Do you have a suggestion on how to remove natural comb that was pulled into a empty super. The comb is laying on the bottom super. There is no uniformity to the comb. I'd like to replace this with a framed super so as to have easier access to work the hive. Thanks for video!
If you are wanting to keep the comb, then I would rubber band it into a frame, in the proper orientation, and put it in the hive. The bees will attach it to the frame. Probably best to cycle them out when you get a chance and just recycle the wax.
So when making a transition from my foundation frames to foundation-less, instead of placing them between two full brood, can i begin the transition between two foundation frames in general?
Thanks for the info I found it helpful! Many other foundationless frames I've seen have a couple wires running through the empty space for extra support. Have you tried that / think it's helpful or necessary?
I have seen that and tried it a couple times. The problem I had was the bees seemed to make the comb in sections around it and it wasn't as strong. Also the wires always seem to bee where there's a queen cell I want to cut out.
Great video and nicely presented and informative. Although I have used foundationless in the brood chamber for several years, I learned something new. Have you tried using foundationless in the honey super and then running them thru a radial extractor? If so, how well do they hold up?
I have heard that as long as you have at least 3 sides attached they will be fine. I always use frame with foundation in my honey supers just because of that.
I ONLY do foundationless everywhere in the hive. My supers are all mediums and I extract them tangentially. It's counter intuitive, but with the basket to support the comb I get less blowouts with tang vs radial. I have extracted some deeps and they extract also.
Thanks for the information. I needed to hear the details of how to get my frames drawn properly. Now I know where I went wrong. I had so many screwed up frames...what a mess. I was about to go back to using foundation. I'm still not sure how to get straight combs when you are starting with package bees though.
Thanks for sharing this video--very helpful. I am new to bees this year, and am definitely wanted to try foundationless frames. I put my second deep hive body on the other day filled with foundationless frames--problem is the bees keep building them up from the bottom in between the bottom rail. I can't seem to get them to build the comb where I want them to. Silly bees. I just tried alternating frames with foundation and foundationless frames. Hoping this give them the reference they need to do it my way. ha! Any guidance is appreciated.
GT_weirdo If the hive is strong enough your best bet is to put foundationless frames into the broodnest in the bottom box. I'd grab frames of honey to move up into the 2nd box and replace them between 2 frames of capped brood in the bottom box. This may seem slower, but actually will probably work out faster and cleaner. Those new bees that pop out of the cells will have those frames drawn out in no time and then you can do it again... until all the new frames are drawn out.
Hi, can I put a foundationless frame between a capped brood frame and some empty weird wavy comb that I think is drone comb? The brood is between 2 and 3 where I put the queen in an introduction cage. Honey is on the other side of it. She's on the inside side of number one presumably laying more brood. This is my first time beekeeping and this was an eleven or 12 day look to see what was going on since removing the intro cage... Thanks in advance for any info.
hi great video! how will you recomand me to start foundationless super? i dont have any caped honey combs. i have a few strong hives that i would like to put supers on but will it work if i just put an empty super with 10 frames ? of course ill use the little wood thing in the top bar..
Starting a new super or brood chamber with no other combs is trickier, but not impossible. When starting from scratch so to speak it's VERY important for the hive to be level side to side and you should keep a close eye on them (every couple days until they have at least one good comb built). Once they have once good comb they should continue, the difficulty with honey supers is they may keep drawing the comb out into the empty space next to it. Once it's capped they won't which is why putting empties between capped is best in supers. You may need to trim here or there, but in the end you'll get what you need.
3/8" is the generally accepted "bee space", less than this and they will tend to glue things together with propolis, anything more and they will build comb between the 2 surfaces. Commercially purchased hive parts are built with this spacing in mind.
Thanks for the great video. Q: What is the general length of time for a hive to draw out the frames vs frames with plasticell or foundation? I know there's not a pat answer, I just didnt want to loss a month (or so) because the bees where drawing out the frames. I would rather go with out foundation if I could. Thanks from Montana!
спасибо Don't worry guys I don't speak or write Russian I just used google translator to see what they said and then thanked them for the kind words. :D
I keep having a nagging question as to whats the minimum distance between the base of a superor medium box and the lowest edge of the frame to be used? Do you have to leave enough room for bees to crawl under the frames?
It could be just fine, or you could end up with a bit of a mess. Best not to have them trying to draw a full empty box that's for honey storage. I try to put one of my honey frames down near brood nest to get it started. If queen lays in it, it's only a problem if you are doing comb honey. If you're honey frames are a smaller size than your brood box, you just have to pull it out faster or scrap the bottom.
Unless you are using the foundation for something else, you could just cut the foundation down to like a 1 inch piece instead of removing it all together. As for sticks just in the middle or all the way across. Probably best to do all the way across, but bees are forgiving creatures (they put up and thrive with all our mistakes) and so if you just put one in the middle it would probably work also. No matter what you do, keep an eye on it and correct the comb as soon as you see it's messed up.
I don't do the drone comb IPCM. People have differing opinions on it, but I feel like it's a waste of resources for the bees, and my time. I try to leave my bees treatment free, unless you consider natural comb a treatment. If I notice a hive appears to be overloaded with mites (natural 24hr mite count under screened bottomboard, or I see some deformed wings showing up) then I will treat them with vaporized oxalic acid. I did not treat going into fall/winter 2012/2013. To be continued.
I am haveing a fly problem, I am going to simpley move the hives, never had this problem before. Any thoughts? there are amny dogs in this block and thinking that dog poop is drawing all the flippen flys. But the hive is new and out of a broken tree due to wind storm, full deep of bees. but thbad comb,flys where to much and found my bees under the hive and in the pallet their on. Cleaned out the box and fly larva put them all back in. But my thought is there are thousands of bees whats up.
Yes, very effective, the bees don't have any wax brushed on in the wild. In fact some people thing it gets better attached it you don't try to help them. With the propolis mixed in with the wax that they use it get's glued on better.
Backyard-beehives I use titebond II and can't find anywhere saying that it has formaldehyde in it. I literally paint it on the surfaces of the nuc boxes I build out of plywood and have seen no bad effects.
That's cool. Thanks for your quick reply and sharing what you've found. I want to make comb honey and I'd like to find a healthy way to make it without the bees building the comb all won my.
I refuse to lose a hive (line of genetics) to the altar of the treatment free god, however oxalic is as strong as I will go. NO apistan or checkmite. My thought is we have no idea what the future holds, what threats there will be to the bees so I want to retain the genetics and hope more resistance comes in the future generations. I believe I'm successful with that goal, went into winter with 7 full size hives, 3 nucs. I lost 1 nuc that was weak going into fall (late split and drought)
Now here’s a strategy I hadn’t thought of. As I chatted with a fellow woodworker, he recommended I google Hyezmar’s book. I did and found many plans, but none like this, thanks!
I need help my dad has passed . I have 2 complete hives I want to have bees 🐝 in them can you help me I not sure what I need to do my dad taught me some about them but I am lost .
I put the empty frame between the capped brood and the weird wavy comb that is totally empty. I believe that is drone comb now in position 4. The empty frame is in positions three. The queen has moved to the inside facing side of frame 1
I was reading somewhere, that it takes 9 lbs of honey to make 1 lbs of wax. So I guess that a reduction in honey production is expected when the bees have to draw combs.
Bonnie Flory Personally I think that is more wives tale than scientific fact. Bees make wax almost like we grow hair or nails, it's a by product of them being. of course they have to eat to make wax, but I doubt is that much more than their normal consumption. My belief is it costs them time and that's a much more valuable commodity.
Bees will only build comb if they have to. They may need more room for brood rearing or honey storage. You are correct that it takes a bit of honey to produce wax. I’d rather them making wax then get congested and swarm
I don't want to seem too arrogant but most of the information you would need to be successful with foundation is contained in my video. Most of the major suppliers of bee equipment use the same tolerances for the woodenware so a deep frame from mann lake should fit in a box from westernbee supply with foundation from dadant.
I am writing a book about beekeeping (novel). Do you have an email so that you can make sure my facts are correct? My daughter is a beekeeper as well. Thanks!
paul carlton I'm fairly certain the holes in the comb are communication holes that the bees put there purposely. It's also possible some of them are from me cutting out queen cells. I've had wax moths in the past also, they can make a mess, if it's much damage I just cut the comb out (melt it down for the wax) and let the bees start over fresh.
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GREAT video. Thank you so much! I am working on putting together an equipment order and I didn't understand why I would use a wedge top vs a groove top. This was helpful in making that decision. Thanks!
AWESOME explanations, especially on why you put an open foundationless frame between brood frames drawn out but not between uncapped honey frames. I currently use frames with foundations, but, we are going back to Africa, soon, in the bush and I'm going to be teaching some of our people there how to keep bees and they won't have access to foundations. They are going to be building hives from scratch. I'm considering teaching them with the Warre hives instead of Langstroth.
I've reserved my first package in April. I built my own medium bodies, covers and bottom. Bought grooves medium frames from MannLake. I also bought Rite-cell plastic foundation. I have no drawn comb of any kind. I would like the package to start and eventually be only on foundationless frames. And not use the Rite-cell.Should I place the Rite-cell in some frames with a foundationless frame in the middle and put the queen cage on top of the foundationless frame, to get them to draw that frame first? Once they have that frame drawn straight on the foundationless frame, then remove the Rite-cell frames? Or should I just only start with all foundationless frames? This is my first year/hive. Thanks!
The big thing starting off foundationless is you have to keep an eye on them. You could cut some ritecell down to strips and put that in the frames, that might help them get off to a good start without having full sheets of foundation in there. You can go completely foundationless to start, but you have to make sure that first frame or 2 is properly oriented , after that they will be fine. The biggest stumbling block starting off is the queen cage causing them to draw funky comb and it never gets fixed. Level side to side is VERY Important.
You did an excellent job explaining all the details.Gave me all the information I need to proceed with foundationless frames,Thank You!
Thank you for the kind words...
Thanks for info on foundationless frame! Can't wait for spring!
Your welcome. Same here
How would you begin a brand-new hive with foundationless? Will the bees just go nuts since there is no already drawn comb for you to layer the empty frames between?
A brand new hive with no drawn comb, just means you need to make sure the hive is absolutely level side to side and that you've got the starter something on the frames for them to start on (I of course like the wedge top frames with the wedge turned 90 degrees and glued/stapled back in). With a new hive like that you would also want to check out their progress in just a couple days, which you would probably be doing anyway to release the queen. The biggest problem people get with foundationless with a package is what to do with the queen cage. I just zip tie it to the underneath of the top bar of the middle frame. If they attach comb to the cage you'll just cut it away when you remove the cage. Once you get one good frame they should follow that pattern as long as the hive stays level.
Hi there, I am a new comer to beekeeping (in the UK) and want to produce honey on the comb (cut-comb), so your video has been very useful (after much searching). Also like the added benefits of possibly reducing mites. Any further advice on how to produce cut comb would be gratefully received. One concern I do have is how much extra effort there is each year to build the comb vs draw out the foundation? Do you think there is any difference? I am currently working with foundation but will use your advice to interlock foundationless frames between foundation frames... Thank you!
It's a trade off when you are doing comb honey. I did crush and strain for my first 4 or 5 harvests until the bees paid for an extractor. So I was in a similar situation as you with them having to start over each year. I think it costs the bees Time more than anything else to build the comb. Overall honey harvests will be larger if you extract VS them having to build comb each year. As for the difference between you giving them foundation and them building foundationless I think it's negligible. What little help the foundation gives them if any is negated by the fact that it's in their way from how they would naturally draw comb.
Awesome video! Great lead on Kelly Bees, as well. I am going for a Long Lang as my first hive, and you just sold me on these wedge top frames. Thanks for taking the time to explain these. I had never heard of them.
John Cates You are very welcome. I have a friend that is doing a Horizontal hive (Long Lang), I keep meaning to do a video of an inspection. We'll we looking at it again 2 weeks from today, so maybe then. Thanks for watching
There are of course a lot of variables that affect how long it takes the bees to draw out the frame, but I'll give you a recent example. I had a 5 frame NUC draw out a deep frame in a week. I have full size hives that knock them out in a day or so. I personally believe they draw them faster than foundation, because nothing is in their way, the festooning bees can work both sides at the same time.
i watched michael bush talk on here, he says that todays bees are much larger nowadays and that gives more houseroom to mites, presumably verroa mites, you refer to mites in the video what is your experience with the cells "downsizing" when foundation less?
I don't measure on a regular basis (haven't measured in a few years in fact), but when I did measure the core broodnest areas on comb were consistently smaller than 5.4 mm. If you are coming off of 5.4 foundation, the first generation is going to draw something like maybe 5.1 (this is an avg), then if you take those bees and give them fresh foundationless they will draw smaller still. What size you end up at is dependent on 2 factors how far north or south are you and how high or low in elevation you are. If you take the 5.1 comb from the 1st generation and give it to a new hive, they of course will be able to skip that step and the newly raised bees can then draw step 2. Hope this helps.
r j, although you stated the firmness of the drawn comb are you omitting fishing line or metal wiring for the extractor?
A guy at our beekeeping meeting said he used slotted top bar frames and filled the slot with wax and then trimmed it up level let harden and then putting a cotton string about as wide as slot and covered it with wax when he was doing foundation less frames. He claimed it worked well and he could get more foundation less wax for cut comb honey just another idea. cool vid I may try not using foundation next year.
The frames we purchased are wired frames, so there are two crimped wires running horizontally through the center of each frame. We are picking up two foundationless nucs this weekend - already on small cell. We have never worked with foundation less frames before. I have some nice, wide tongue depressors here and they fit pretty well wedged between the top and bottom bars of the frames. I was toying with the idea of wedging them into the frames to provide some additional support so that the frames can be extracted. Any thoughts on this? Any tips on handling foundation less frames in the heat of summer? I understand that they are more easily damaged and have to be handled in a certain way, but haven't seen that elaborated on. Thanks, Sue
littlealbatross1 The tongue depressors will be more helpful at the top for a definitive place for them to start. You can run fishing line tight in the foundationless frames, this will give them more strength. The big thing is you don't want to turn the frame parallel to the ground if the comb is unsupported. As for extracting, any frame even wood frames with plastic foundation will blow out if you don't treat them right in the extractor. You just have to take it easier on the foundationless. 95% of my mediums are foundationless and I extract tangentially and rarely have blow outs. Make sure your hive is level side to side, this is the MOST important thing.
What exactly do you mean by, "extracting them tangentially? I can't picture that in my mind how the combs are laying exactly in the honey extractor / baskets. Thanks!@@rwjedi
@@steveandrews8301 radially are like spokes on a wheel, tangentially would be like perpendicular to the rod in the middle of the extractor. This causes the most outward force for the honey, and the most stress, luckily my baskets support the wax
Thankyou!!! Am a newbie and will starting with 2 hives this spring and wanting to go foundationless from the start. Very helpful video.
Your welcome. I love foundationless.
I have 2 hives and started foundationless.
My hive is a mess and its a disaster to take honey out.
We need to follow someone until we know what we are doing.
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@@rwjedi dddddjjjdhdjjdhdjjdjdjdhdhdhdhdhhhdhhhhhdhhdhhhdhhdhdhhdhhhhdhhhhddjjdhjdhjdhfjhfjfhfjhdjhhhdhdhhhgduydudhdudhdudyudydhdhhdhdhdhdhhshsgdhdudhjdjduudddrndjdhfbjdhduydjrhrkhrkhfjhzuhduudidyduydidydiydjdyiuuhdhfhdyduyzhdgdhhdhshudgdhdgdugdjshhhehdehhehehhihdhdhjrhdhdhshshhhhhhhhdhhhhhxhdhhdhdhdhdhdhdhdghhehrhururuejddjjdhxjhdjdhjdhdudujdjjjjhxhdjdhudufytyryruyyduyddyfyfyfkfjsjdjduufhfuzz cehhjdjrjreorjkiij jjudkjdjtdjrhrkrhjrhrjrhjrhr ddd
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Thank you! So you feel that using a empty frame takes (appx.) the same time as the plasticell/foundation? Thats great because Id rather not us the plasticell/foundation if I can avoid it. Q:I have slotted frames now and not the kind that you have on your video any suggestions? Thanks again rw!
So very true!!! I put them green backs in my pocket! THANKS FOR SHARING
Good information, well thought out and presented in a lucid manner. Nicely done!
I currently have all Kelley slotted top, grooved bottom frames that the plasticell snaps into. Can I still use these or should I buy all new wedge tops? I hate to waste what I have. Maybe I can just put a shim into the notched part to use as a starter?
You should be able to use paint mixers or tongue depressors in there and they will work just fine. I have used frames that I popped the plastic foundation out of and they drew the comb out fine. I'm not suggesting that you go with out a comb guide, but sometimes it will be ok. LOL
If you do not have drawn comb can you use plastic unwaxed foundation for the guides? I know the bees do not like plastic even with wax, but I do not want them drawing comb on the plastic foundation, only using it for guide then when they draw the foundationless , replace with more foundationless frames?
You can try that and it might work. Ultimately if you are level side to side and they have a good comb guide in the middle of the frame they will probably be just fine. Just check them often, one good comb leads to another. one bad comb leads to another. ...
Question. I heard on TH-cam that the honey bee from plants that have been treated with insecticides does bring traces of chemical back and it gets absorbed into the wax. Do you have any information that disputes what I heard. But I do understand with the mite treatment. Thank you
That is my understanding as well, that the chemicals from the environment do get absorbed into the wax. So as painful as it is you should rotate your comb. Just cut it out and they will make fresh comb.
@@rwjedi thank you
For my first 6 or 7 years I just did crush and strain, sacrificing the comb for honey and wax (I was also too cheap to buy an extractor). 2 years ago I bought an extractor and have been extracting the foundationless with little trouble. with the basket, running them tangentially works better than radially, but I may try wiring some frames and see if radial(spokes on a wheel) will hold up. As long as the wax isn't brandnew foundationless extracts fine.
Thanks for the video and the tips.
I started 2013 all foundationless and this year one hive of bees started building on the bottoms of the frames justa bove the brood chamber. Some of the brace comb was at 90 degrees to the frames. They even built from the bottom toward the top and ended up 3 frames over when they reached the top. Wow !
Oh I nearly forgot to mention. When I first set this hive on its base (at the end of last Summer) the frames ran East & West. Then about a month ago I moved the hive and set the hive so that it had the frames running North & South.
I took out the mess and rubber banded their new comb into frames. Maybe that will help get them straight.
I was about to order some foundation until you reminded me of all the reasons why I shouldn't. Maybe I can use my old wax and melt it down to use for starter strips if it turns out to be necessary.
At first I thought maybe I had my hives out of level. But the hive couldn't have been that far out of level. ((-:
Thanks again for the video.
Nice video, thanks. Couple of things I'll mention if you'd like to verify on your side because I also don't like random commenters telling me I'm wrong :) As you correctly point out, foundationless frames are cheaper and have natural mite prevention, so I really don't understand why more beekeepers don't go this way. I think it's just old habits, and the belief that spin extractors will break the comb, but my experience is that medium/Dadant/Illinois supers are just fine.
A key benefit of natural comb (from foundationless frames) is that small cell size makes it difficult for a mite to survive. You said that larvae in smaller cells emerge more quickly, but actually the bee development cycle remains unchanged regardless of cell size. Naturally drawn worker cells have less (no) space for the mite to move around in and many mites either die or can't develop normally. Since it was first engineered in the early 1900s, foundation cell size has increased because the thinking was that bigger bees make more honey, but the extra space also led to a quicker mite infestation. When Varroa appeared in the west, the large cells provided a great welcome!
The development cycle approach however can be used if you install drone foundation and get the queen to lay drones. I started foundationless two years ago and the first natural comb was all drone, and I couldn't figure out why. Then a year ago I added a bunch more and this time I had a high proportion of female to drone comb. Maybe it's to do with the time of year or location of the frame in the brood box? That would be an interesting second round question for you: Can you induce natural drone and/or worker comb, or is it just a random choice by the bees?
I have no problem extracting deeps if needed, but generally don't because they are all in the brood boxes and that will be their winter stores and if a hive has too much I'll just take and give to another hive or split.
On the development time issue, I'm basing my comments on information from Michael Bush at www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm , and he bases his on work done by Huber over a century ago. I've never measured it myself (I've got other bee work to do LOL), but I just know that with the foundationless and local survivor genetics I don't lose hives to varroa or anything else except starvation (winter) if I leave them too light and don't have a candy board on.
As to the drone issue with foundationless frames I covered that in my comment section of the video, but the basics of it are this: Bees want a certain amount of drone comb in the hive as well as a certain amount of drones (depending on the time of year for the drones themselves), if you have been running foundation in your hives the bees have had to jam the drone comb in any nook and cranny they can find (that's why a lot of people's top bars are covered with burr comb (mine tend to be pretty clean). When you put the first foundationless frame in the hive, the bees are like "hallelujah the gods have finally allowed us to make drone comb" and so they do, if you remove it from the hive and put another foundationless in they will repeat. Instead what you should do is slowly move the drone comb to positions 1&2 or 9&10 in the box and continue to feed foundationless into the middle of the brood nest, and they will build beautiful worker comb.
Super, thanks for the reply. I thought I'd read on the Bush site that the development cycle wasn't shortened but you straightened me right out--Thanks for the correction on my "correction."
I'll go have a look at the drone comments. The new Google+ doesn't show them. I didn't realize drone cell production was such a hot topic, and a Google search products several like this www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?229937-Foundationless-frames-how-much-drone-brood
Doug Brown Actually, Doug, you are absolutely right about the lifecycle being unchanged. A worked bee takes 21 days to emerge. It did a century ago... just as it does today. I'm a big fan of Michael Bush myself and realize he cites Miller and Huber, too. I saw him speak back in November (have vids on my channel). I keep struggling with claims that the lifecycle us shortened. I'm reminded of many works written over a century ago that state it takes 21 days for a worker bee to emerge, well before sized foundation existed (i.e. everything was natural cell). I buy in to the thought of there not being enough room for mite nourishment in small cell.
Jason Morgan
Michael Bush also says he has measured it in an observation hive as well. I don't spend too much time checking that sort of thing I'm too busy making splits. :)
Doug Brown was a great time to get you initially
Anything will work if you let it (with in reason), but I don't think it's necessary to put the wax on there or the cotton string. If all you have are the slotted top bar frames and you want to do foundationless, glue something into the slot for a guide and be done with it. If you are ordering frames specifically for foundationless I am partial to the wedge top frames, pop the wedge out, turn it 90 degrees and glue/staple back in place for a guide.
Thanks for this teaching vid. Just ordered a case of wedge frames.
If you put an empty frame between 2 frames full of brood, won't that mess up the order? I have heard you shouldn't change the order of the frames in a box.
That is a loose rule that applies to putting frames back in a box after an inspection, because of differences in how the comb is drawn out or burr comb the frames will go back together best in their original order. However when you are getting new frames of foundationless drawn out your larger concern is where are they going to be drawn out the best and fastest, and that is going to be between 2 frames of capped brood. Thank you for watching...
Thx! That makes sense
Loved the information. Do you have a suggestion on how to remove natural comb that was pulled into a empty super. The comb is laying on the bottom super. There is no uniformity to the comb. I'd like to replace this with a framed super so as to have easier access to work the hive. Thanks for video!
If you are wanting to keep the comb, then I would rubber band it into a frame, in the proper orientation, and put it in the hive. The bees will attach it to the frame. Probably best to cycle them out when you get a chance and just recycle the wax.
So when making a transition from my foundation frames to foundation-less, instead of placing them between two full brood, can i begin the transition between two foundation frames in general?
You can. You can even have a box full of foundationless, but the fastest best way to get them drawn out is between to frames of capped brood.
All very well in your explanation. Your plan is good. Thank you for your film. Best regards to you
Thanks for the info I found it helpful! Many other foundationless frames I've seen have a couple wires running through the empty space for extra support. Have you tried that / think it's helpful or necessary?
I have seen that and tried it a couple times. The problem I had was the bees seemed to make the comb in sections around it and it wasn't as strong. Also the wires always seem to bee where there's a queen cell I want to cut out.
Great video and nicely presented and informative. Although I have used foundationless in the brood chamber for several years, I learned something new. Have you tried using foundationless in the honey super and then running them thru a radial extractor? If so, how well do they hold up?
I have heard that as long as you have at least 3 sides attached they will be fine. I always use frame with foundation in my honey supers just because of that.
I ONLY do foundationless everywhere in the hive. My supers are all mediums and I extract them tangentially. It's counter intuitive, but with the basket to support the comb I get less blowouts with tang vs radial. I have extracted some deeps and they extract also.
Thanks for the information. I needed to hear the details of how to get my frames drawn properly. Now I know where I went wrong. I had so many screwed up frames...what a mess.
I was about to go back to using foundation. I'm still not sure how to get straight combs when you are starting with package bees though.
Superb. Thanks.
Thanks for sharing this video--very helpful. I am new to bees this year, and am definitely wanted to try foundationless frames. I put my second deep hive body on the other day filled with foundationless frames--problem is the bees keep building them up from the bottom in between the bottom rail. I can't seem to get them to build the comb where I want them to. Silly bees. I just tried alternating frames with foundation and foundationless frames. Hoping this give them the reference they need to do it my way. ha! Any guidance is appreciated.
GT_weirdo If the hive is strong enough your best bet is to put foundationless frames into the broodnest in the bottom box. I'd grab frames of honey to move up into the 2nd box and replace them between 2 frames of capped brood in the bottom box. This may seem slower, but actually will probably work out faster and cleaner. Those new bees that pop out of the cells will have those frames drawn out in no time and then you can do it again... until all the new frames are drawn out.
Hi, can I put a foundationless frame between a capped brood frame and some empty weird wavy comb that I think is drone comb? The brood is between 2 and 3 where I put the queen in an introduction cage. Honey is on the other side of it. She's on the inside side of number one presumably laying more brood. This is my first time beekeeping and this was an eleven or 12 day look to see what was going on since removing the intro cage... Thanks in advance for any info.
hi great video! how will you recomand me to start foundationless super? i dont have any caped honey combs. i have a few strong hives that i would like to put supers on but will it work if i just put an empty super with 10 frames ? of course ill use the little wood thing in the top bar..
Starting a new super or brood chamber with no other combs is trickier, but not impossible. When starting from scratch so to speak it's VERY important for the hive to be level side to side and you should keep a close eye on them (every couple days until they have at least one good comb built). Once they have once good comb they should continue, the difficulty with honey supers is they may keep drawing the comb out into the empty space next to it. Once it's capped they won't which is why putting empties between capped is best in supers. You may need to trim here or there, but in the end you'll get what you need.
3/8" is the generally accepted "bee space", less than this and they will tend to glue things together with propolis, anything more and they will build comb between the 2 surfaces. Commercially purchased hive parts are built with this spacing in mind.
Thanks for the great video. Q: What is the general length of time for a hive to draw out the frames vs frames with plasticell or foundation? I know there's not a pat answer, I just didnt want to loss a month (or so) because the bees where drawing out the frames. I would rather go with out foundation if I could. Thanks from Montana!
What do I do if I have no built up frames.
How do frames with foundation look like? What is the difference?
спасибо Don't worry guys I don't speak or write Russian I just used google translator to see what they said and then thanked them for the kind words. :D
I keep having a nagging question as to whats the minimum distance between the base of a superor medium box and the lowest edge of the frame to be used? Do you have to leave enough room for bees to crawl under the frames?
Спасибо за ваши подсказки и инструкции . Очень хорошая информация . Большое спасибо
I have heard that spraying with seven helps the bees...or was it 7-up?
Should you still run a frame of drone comb for IPCM. Lost 3/4 my hives last year to mites.
What would happen if you had an empty honey super and you wanted them to draw out the foundation led frames?
It could be just fine, or you could end up with a bit of a mess. Best not to have them trying to draw a full empty box that's for honey storage. I try to put one of my honey frames down near brood nest to get it started. If queen lays in it, it's only a problem if you are doing comb honey. If you're honey frames are a smaller size than your brood box, you just have to pull it out faster or scrap the bottom.
Unless you are using the foundation for something else, you could just cut the foundation down to like a 1 inch piece instead of removing it all together. As for sticks just in the middle or all the way across. Probably best to do all the way across, but bees are forgiving creatures (they put up and thrive with all our mistakes) and so if you just put one in the middle it would probably work also. No matter what you do, keep an eye on it and correct the comb as soon as you see it's messed up.
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Thanks for watching. Feel free to ask questions if you need to.
When starting a new bee hive can you use all foundation less? Carol
Good video. Clearly explained. Thanks.
Thank you for the info.
I was wondering how do you harvers the honey from foundationless frames?
I don't do the drone comb IPCM. People have differing opinions on it, but I feel like it's a waste of resources for the bees, and my time. I try to leave my bees treatment free, unless you consider natural comb a treatment. If I notice a hive appears to be overloaded with mites (natural 24hr mite count under screened bottomboard, or I see some deformed wings showing up) then I will treat them with vaporized oxalic acid. I did not treat going into fall/winter 2012/2013. To be continued.
I have no money,but I have free pine pallet/crate wood and a saw.That is why I want to do it.
I am haveing a fly problem, I am going to simpley move the hives, never had this problem before. Any thoughts? there are amny dogs in this block and thinking that dog poop is drawing all the flippen flys. But the hive is new and out of a broken tree due to wind storm, full deep of bees. but thbad comb,flys where to much and found my bees under the hive and in the pallet their on. Cleaned out the box and fly larva put them all back in. But my thought is there are thousands of bees whats up.
I did it myself with the Woodglut plans. I think this is the best way to find out how to build it.
Is it effective without the wax?
Yes, very effective, the bees don't have any wax brushed on in the wild. In fact some people thing it gets better attached it you don't try to help them. With the propolis mixed in with the wax that they use it get's glued on better.
I love the idea of not using contaminated wax foundation. Have you found a wood glue that doesn't use formaldehyde?
Backyard-beehives I use titebond II and can't find anywhere saying that it has formaldehyde in it. I literally paint it on the surfaces of the nuc boxes I build out of plywood and have seen no bad effects.
That's cool. Thanks for your quick reply and sharing what you've found. I want to make comb honey and I'd like to find a healthy way to make it without the bees building the comb all won my.
'Wonky'
Backyard-beehives I think I remember that TB2 is food grade too. I think it's used in cutting boards.
I've never even considered that. Ill look that up right now, thanks!
I refuse to lose a hive (line of genetics) to the altar of the treatment free god, however oxalic is as strong as I will go. NO apistan or checkmite. My thought is we have no idea what the future holds, what threats there will be to the bees so I want to retain the genetics and hope more resistance comes in the future generations. I believe I'm successful with that goal, went into winter with 7 full size hives, 3 nucs. I lost 1 nuc that was weak going into fall (late split and drought)
Now here’s a strategy I hadn’t thought of. As I chatted with a fellow woodworker, he recommended I google Hyezmar’s book. I did and found many plans, but none like this, thanks!
I need help my dad has passed . I have 2 complete hives I want to have bees 🐝 in them can you help me I not sure what I need to do my dad taught me some about them but I am lost .
I put the empty frame between the capped brood and the weird wavy comb that is totally empty. I believe that is drone comb now in position 4. The empty frame is in positions three. The queen has moved to the inside facing side of frame 1
Thank you
Nice video I am new at this game.
Can u give. Me the sizes of the frame. Thx
Informative! Thanks.
Would love to see you make a candle making video
good information tans
does anyone else see Voldomort around the 4 min mark?
Thanks for the info. i'm going to try a few frames like this.
Haaarrrrryyyyyy Pooooottter!!!!!!
I was reading somewhere, that it takes 9 lbs of honey to make 1 lbs of wax.
So I guess that a reduction in honey production is expected when the bees have to draw combs.
Bonnie Flory Personally I think that is more wives tale than scientific fact. Bees make wax almost like we grow hair or nails, it's a by product of them being. of course they have to eat to make wax, but I doubt is that much more than their normal consumption. My belief is it costs them time and that's a much more valuable commodity.
Bees will only build comb if they have to. They may need more room for brood rearing or honey storage. You are correct that it takes a bit of honey to produce wax. I’d rather them making wax then get congested and swarm
What i use as well foundationless frames> I do brush melted bees wax on the wedge Found they target it faster
How to make? Where's that part?
The make part is using a standard wedge type frame popping out the wedge, turn it 90 degrees, reattach, put frame in hive let bees do their thing.
@@rwjedi I thought maybe there was a *part 2* I couldn't find that showed how to make a frame.
I don't want to seem too arrogant but most of the information you would need to be successful with foundation is contained in my video. Most of the major suppliers of bee equipment use the same tolerances for the woodenware so a deep frame from mann lake should fit in a box from westernbee supply with foundation from dadant.
I was looking how to make the frames out of a 2x8 or something. . . Maybe change title.
You are so right, after over 100k views I should change the title because you don't like it.
give me information. . .thanks
I am writing a book about beekeeping (novel). Do you have an email so that you can make sure my facts are correct? My daughter is a beekeeper as well. Thanks!
Justine Cowan You can contact me thru my facebook page:
facebook.com/alderaanapiaries
2×(8×20×300)+6×(8×8×419)=?
Отгадай загадку!
The holes in your comb look like wax moth holes ,I had a hive destroyed bye moths and thats what it looked like.
paul carlton I'm fairly certain the holes in the comb are communication holes that the bees put there purposely. It's also possible some of them are from me cutting out queen cells. I've had wax moths in the past also, they can make a mess, if it's much damage I just cut the comb out (melt it down for the wax) and let the bees start over fresh.
4:52 so true!
I am sure you can still buy handbook with all info you need on woodprix. Just google it.
I wise freams was a dollar we have to pay 40 for 10, hack if I could get them a 20 that would be good too
I did it too. This is what I used Woodglut designs for
Oh sure it would, but I'm not smart enough to speak more than one language well. :)
I made it with woodprix handbooks !
I am sure that you will find good way to make it on woodprix Webpage.
give me information. . .thanks