Why Hot-Hatches are Now Faster than Old Supercars
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ธ.ค. 2021
- Right, so there has been a whole load of new hot hatches setting OUTRAGEOUS times at the Nurburgring, and by that, I mean way faster than some of the supercars that used to top the rankings.
Look, this Audi RS3 is faster around the lap than a Pagani Zonda S, the Honda Civic Type R is faster than a Nissan GT-R and this Megane RS Trophy-R is the quickest of the lot - faster than every supercar you used to stick on your wall. Yep - Bugattis, Lamborghinis, Ferarris - THE LOT. Even the holder of the moose test record, the mighty Citroen Xantia.
And whilst it’s obvious that new cars are faster than old ones, these are hatchbacks - family cars. They have no reasonable right to be beating the Ferraris and Lamborghinis of just ten years ago.
So let me tell you about the key engineering breakthroughs that made them so fast.
⭕ Why New Cars Keep Failing This Crash Test
• Why New Cars Keep FAIL...
⭕ Why Airless Tyres Kinda Suck
• Why Airless Tires Kind...
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All the Type R owners are going to be screaming 🤣 Which of these cars would you have? The Megane? Or an old 599?
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Supercharged focus rs?
599 Evo is just God's avatar in a car's form.
VTEC is valve lift, not timing
I would love it if you could find any one of those older supercars that you mentioned, put modern tires on them, and set some lap times. Then we can see how they compare to their old lap times with old tires and modern cars with modern tires.
For example how much faster is a Lamborghini Aventador than a Lamborghini Murcielago if they have the same tires?
I have my RS.
Not the fastest an easiest Car for the Track, but modifiing and driving is so great.
"This are hatchbacks...family cars"
Engineers at Renault Sport looking at their Megane RS Trophy-R with no backseats and carbon wheels: Oh, we overdid it guys!
ikr normally sedans or suvs are seen as family cars in europe a hatchback is more for younger persons who dont need much space because they either live with their parents, alone or gf/bf.. or its the wifes car to just get to work
If Honda approached that ideology they might beat the Trophy-R 😂
@@everydaydose7779 but the civic is more popular (especially with tuners), more practical, and cheaper
Notably on very much road specific tyres Bridgestone S007 RS.
@@pantherdxn4835 and more reliable. modern Peugeot engines suck ass.
If you had just said 'the tyres are better now' and ended it, I would've been satisfied
It's that and also the manufacturers used to just shove a car round the 'Ring and see how fast it went. Now they hire the track for a week in search of the best time, so the performance is honestly a bit misleading. The FK8 just isn't that fast- basically anything with a sub-8 time on the 'Ring will demolish it in reality. Always sounds like I'm bashing the CTR, I'm not- I use it as a reference because it's the one I considered buying so researched, it's great ☺ (sounds awful though).
Nailed it. Better tires and "tryhard" drivers. That's pretty much it.
That, and when cars like the Veyron and Zonda went around the track it's quite obvious they weren't driving them very hard. No one cared back then and it wasn't worth risking crashing multi million dollar cars
@@StrykerV8 Exactly that. Hatches going round only 10s slower than a Zonda F? Nah- stick me, a fairly average driver, in a Zonda F and there is no driver on the planet getting within 10s in an untuned Civic.
Admittedly that's with the caveat that I have the balls to do it and won't crash, both of which rule out ever trying it ☺
Nonetheless, my Cayman is 5s qiucker round Laguna Seca than an FK8 in equal conditions with the same driver trying equally hard (that result is consistent across multiple tracks), so that's 20s on the 'Ring...making my car 10s quicker than a Zonda? Except my car laps most tracks in identical times to an F430 which is older, cheaper and unquestionably slower than a Zonda. I'm seeing maths issues here!
@@ApothecaryTerry according to my calculations you are too scared to drive your Cayman hard like that and are at least 30 seconds behind the zonda. Better stick to standing next to your car with your Porsche windbreaker.
@@UluvDuddes 1stly, jealousy is a bad look.
2ndly, yeah...of course I have neither the balls or the skill to match a decent driver in a Zonda, I'm not enough of an idiot to claim otherwise. I'm an above-average driver, I've done enough racing and rallying to know where I am which is definitely not a pro. My point had nothing to do with that- it was that even a non-pro like me is quicker in a Cayman or Zonda than a pro in these hot hatches...I've driven an FK8 hard and I'm about 10s quicker in the Cayman on most tracks.
3rdly though, I bought a Porsche because it's fun and sounds amazing. I mock Porsche drivers more than you ever will, I really don't care about the badge. Porsche drivers are all tossers...not BMW/Audi driver level, but tossers nonetheless. I am one now, nobody is excluding me from that statement. Just don't think you're being clever for thinking it, we're all way ahead of you there 😁
You left out one massiv point.
The track itself improved much in the last 10-15 years as well and got faster.
Yea and if those old supercars with new tyre technology would smack these hot hatches
@@RCLepcha except the gtr
@@le-johnny9236 modern GT-Rs are lot faster than the early year models with changes to Suspension and power
@@RCLepcha Which is fine, there's always a faster car; I'm just clowning with you. What's cool is that hatches are still very quick, despite their disadvantages. It would be rather odd if an AWD modern car was slower than a FWD hatch. Btw, I'm fairly sure older GTRs still beat the civic, there are many 2009 entries that beat the 2017 FK8; maybe a higher "trim" models or a better driver I don't know.
@@le-johnny9236 shut up are you 12
I remember about twenty years ago one of the car magazines had an article on the best way to spend £1000 to get the fastest track car possible. They settled for a second hand Peugeot 305gti for £500 and spent the rest of the money on a new set of quality tires.
Finding a £500 305gti nowadays
I think you are referring to a 205 gti or a 309 gti.
Back in the 70s when we did circuit sprints (aka track days now) a mate had an Escort Twink with top shelf Pirellis. One meeting he turned up with near-knackered old slicks off an F3 car and went three seconds a lap quicker.
@@5CGQ "a mate had an escort twink"
What?! lol
@@aramondehasashi3324 Sorry; that was in-period shorthand for "Ford Escort Twin Cam".
A Nurburgring lap with classic supercars such as the McLaren F1, Ferrari F40, Ferrari F50 and Lamborghini Diablo with suitably sized and rated modern day extreme performance road tyres should yield pretty interesting results, especially once their suspensions are tuned to match them.
I am really curious on how the F1 would perform, I am sure it can hold his own against some supercars
@@Firebolt1729
The F1 would actually need to have it's suspension stiffened quite a bit to match modern extreme performance and road legal semi slicks. IIRC, the OEM spring rates were very much optimized with road comfort in mind more than lap times, with rates over 1.5Hz but well below 2Hz. The F50 had a snap oversteer issue near and over the limit, but more overall grip might mitigate this a bit. The F50 had much more sporty suspension setup than the F1 and should need much less significant tweaking. Super grippy tires for the AWD Bugatti EB110 would be interesting to say the least.
Good point....cause that comparison of older car tire technology vs new don't make sense...
F1 V10 Ferrari on slicks 😋😋😋
Ah... Excuses.
I can confirm my Honda type R with an enzo engine with two turbochargers, four superchargers and a Lamborghini exhaust system is in fact faster than a veyron
Bet it can't beat my Supra
@@06dpa my dads daddy’s uncles cousins sisters son has a twin turbo viper that has 30 thousand hrsprs get on my levels bruh
That video is gold man 😂😂
@@honeybadger0562 Moar powr baby!
lol
Something like 15 years ago, Racing Beat built a Miata fitted with race tires. It pulled 1.0G, which was astounding for the time. These days, a similar car on wide maximum performance tires with 200 treadwear can make something like 1.2-1.4G.
I had a '77 VW Rabbit, the US version, with 80 hp and 90 ft/lb of torque. It weighed 1800 pounds, and two of my friends could lift the back end off the ground! This car was a tiger from stoplight to stoplight, and despite the 9.0 second 0-60 time, it would kill my friend's old American cars with V8's time after time. These were growling old Pontiacs and Chever-Lays, cars that talked tough but couldn't get out of their own way. My Rabbit made short work of them through the quarter mile and for some reason got a rep around my high school as "fast".
Welcome to 1984, when an 80 hp car could be considered fast....
There's a difference between"quick" and "fast".
I had an '87 CRX with 90 hp engine that felt pretty quick in traffic but on the highway a more powerful car would leave it behind.
I'd take quick any day, more fun every day and the fun comes at more legal speeds.
@Green Mamba Games My dad had an '80 Chevette. Top speed: 65 mph.
It had to be towed to the dealership when it was 13 months old; The front pulley FELL off of the engine while he was driving to work on I-75.....
Those emission-choked American cars are embarrassing.
Americans often complain about strict emission laws for the low performance compared to European models but as far as I've seen, the EU has been a lot stricter than California from time to time. I guess it's just unwillingness of American companies to put more money into engine development back in the day that caused such disparities.
@@ijustfelldown American car companies build cars in order to make a profit; European companies make a profit by building cars. There is a subtle difference that is very important.
Well, that's kinda to be expected. The super/hypercars are - in a good part - best at the high end of the power curve. You have the gear ratios to be able to use the whole power range to reach ridiculous speeds. But on the low end - with high gear ratios - you're not limited by the engine power as much as by the ability to transfer that tractive force to the pavement. And that's where the tyres and suspension come into play.
Is tyre really more “popular” around the word than tire or is it just because of the channels i watch
@@ididit1354 I'm not sure. If I recall correctly, the tyre/tire difference is like color/colour or some other similar word pairs - american vs british english. Since I'm not a native speaker I use any spelling I feel like at the moment. XD
@@SpadajSpadaj lmfao i use both colours but mainly that one Canadian and American arent to different but tire is the same
@@ididit1354 I'm tired of your shit
@@siddarthramani6103 who tf are you 💀
Good video, but you forgot to mention improvements in brake, pad and ABS technology - this also makes a huge difference to lap times.
Aye very true.
The Focus Rs is amazing. My father bought one about a year ago and I was really impressed by the performance of it. Three months ago he bought a Porsche 911 Carrera 4s, but I need to say that in the city the Focus Rs is a lot better. It is faster in the town, uses about 9 litres while the Porsche over 16. Although that the Porsche may be more powerful, more expensive and more prestige I like the Ford better!!!
It makes sense for the city especially if you’re driving less than 5 miles
I've no experience with them but they just translate on screen as a superbly solid, consistent performance hatch, they also happen to look rather good!
there is more to worry about that just raw performance, feedback is very important most of the time
i have a focus RS mk3, and i like it... but its hard to tell what the car is doing.
i had a mazda RX8 before, and the RX8 feels so much more responsive. it gave me way more confidence pushing the limits, because i could feel the limits approaching. I could drift an off-ramp without really worrying about it.
for sure the RS is faster, but its not as enjoyable, in large part because I can't just chuck it around with confidence.
in the snow - thats a whole different story. RS 100% all day.
@@isays
Given how well the chassis is praised on the RS for being chuckable and with good feedback and composed on the limit that us surprising given the comparison with the frankly (in the wet particularly) nerve wracking RX8. A good chassis but not as confidence inspiring I'd have thought. I've not driven the RS but have driven the RX8 so I can only go on what the bulk of testers and reviews say about it.
@@skylined5534 i kinda think you've got that backwards. the rx8 was universally praised for its excellent feedback and ease of control. most criticism of the chassis was in comparison with the rx7 which was a 2door sports coupe. the "in the wet" comment makes me believe you're talking about the top gear review, but were overwhelmingly positive about it, only in the postscript they had a complaint about the OEM tires. I got mine used and it didn't have OEM tires, so IDK if that was true or not, but it was excellent with pilot sport tires.
the focus RS is universally described has having numb steering feedback and overly harsh suspension.
oh the RS has grip for _daaaaays_ - endless grip. but it doesn't communicate that to you. for an expert driver doing hot laps on a closed circuit, thats probably not as important, once they've learned the car's limits and track conditions.
but I'm comparing two different classes of car. the focus RS does very well for a hot-hatch, or sports-trim-of-an-economy-car. its not BAD, just not as fun to drive as cars purpose built from the ground up to be fun, like the miata or brz, even if it performs better.
unless there is snow of course. it absolutely dominates in snow.
You should also consider the fact that the Nürburgring gets saver and due to that faster every year.
You can clearly see this in times from 2014/15 compared to times from 16/17 where facelift versions of cars drove extremly faster times, like the 991.2 GT3RS drove 25 seconds faster than the 991.1
From 2015 to 2016 they made huge changes to risiky parts of the track because in a 2015 VLN race a Nissan GTR flew into the spectators and killed someone.
The changes weren't so big as to enable seconds upon seconds to be gained. Sure at Flugplatz they evened out the crest a bit, but that doesn't save you five seconds.
youtube is just shopping channel now any reason to talk about products it seems...quite a lots going on irl but all these influential dudes ploughing on business as usual..
The best comparison to dispel or prove the track being faster would be this:
Get at least 5 cars in peak condition which set fastest laps back then and if possible try to fit them with as close as like for like tyres and let them go for it. Preferably the same drivers of each car too if possible. That'd be interesting!
Not just Schwedenkreuz is full throttle in a GT3 now also thanks to the new tarmac. They repave every year considerable parts and make the track smoother and faster. It's probably more than one sec. quicker per year and this season there is 2,5 km fresh asphalt on the GP-track.
Small, light, fwd and add a big engine .. whilst not technically a hatch, surely the 60s Mini Cooper S was the first of the breed from which hot hatches evolved?
Yeah, the original Mini Cooper was a brilliant car that can punch above its weight.
The original road legal go kart right there
@@Matty.Hill_87 go kart's arent road legal?
@@karmveer240 just a saying for a car that that good around the corners
@@Matty.Hill_87 oo
Super interesting video, thanks!!
Would love to have a video with a deeper explanation on what actually improved in tires past 10-20 years 😃😃
Also, would be amazing to see a comparison of cars with new tires, 5 year old tire technology an 10 year old tire technology (Probably not easy to do since I doubt tire manufactures still make the older compounds)
This is why I personally feel that 200hp to 300hp is the sweet spot for sports cars for my garage. Anything more is just excessive and will break the speed limit way too early.
Tired of speeding tickets and corruption.
Lots of people say that "slower" cars are better for the street, and I gotta agree, you can actually push it without breaking the law
@@Pika_Gabe used to own an frs and i miss it for that. I could actually rev it high and accelerate a lot without all of a sudden risking a license suspension.
all depends on weight, but with how fat cars are now i think closer to 300hp is better.
@@Pika_Gabe it's not actually how fast the car is that makes it fun. It's actually how raw the car is and how it feels at low speed. Big heavy modern sports cars feel slow as they are completely nannied and planted even on the edge of grip. They don't have as much feel. That is actually the problem.
@@LawrenceTimme That makes sense. I know peoe love cars like the Veloster N because it's literally 4 wheels and a seat and it feels more like the older cars.
About the torque steering: My first car had 250hp to front wheels and amount of torque steer would differ wildly thanks to VVT and extremely aggressive automagic-gearbox. Made spirited driving more terrifying than fun at times thanks to somewhat limited driving characteristics of '95 Opel. Really makes one appreciate modern cars on how easy they are to drive fast.
I've had near 300 bhp fwd cars with virtually no torque steer to speak of. I think modern reviews are made by people who are overwhelmed by Bluetooth controller feedback.
My Focus ST originally had terrible torque stear. But after new socks, springs, rear engine mount, and a traction bar between the A-arms, torque stear is mostly gone.
That's a banging first car, 250hp! My first car (and current) is a VW polo with a 1.2l engine and 54hp lmao
@@aadi8568 My family loves sleeper cars and so do I. The very first car I drove was my fathers 300whp rwd C-class Mercedes.
You can find cars with surprising power for cheap if you disregard most common and popular ones, like my first car: 600€ Opel with 1000+ man hours of work or my second car Ford Puma with 190hp also for the same 600€. Honestly I would suggest looking at early Fiesta ST or Puma if you like the size of that polo, they are both cheap and very easy to maintain. Assuming you have space to do said wrenching..
@@Salesman9001 I would like a fiesta st but insurance will kill me
I would love to see an original Yellowbird on some brand new tyres and see how much faster it goes.
New brakes hopefully
Just like drift car trying to get good lap🤣
It would go a lot faster... but not enough to touch any modern performance cars.
You're definitely onto something with tires, I recently tracked my E28 on Pilot Spirt 4's, it was pretty amazing how much it gripped.
Nicely done, but perhaps you should make a small correction about the introduction of LSD's to hot hatches. Not sure about the Honda Civic Type R, but my 1999 Integra Type R came standard with an LSD. Considering that was 22 years ago, the technology for that era was pretty impressive. I have owned my Integra Type R since new and I am about to give it another oil change at 310,000Kms. My outlay in those 22 years has been less than $10,000, which includes 5 sets of tyres, 3rd clutch, 3 distributors, one only set of disc pads and one radiator. The motor is untouched, yet I rev it to 9,000 rpm every day. I recently fitted a sports air filter and added some special German fuel additive, resulting in a noticeable improvement in torque and acceleration by as much as 10%. The feeling of exhilaration when I drive this car is just pure pleasure and even though I have the money to buy a new hot hatch, I really have no interest in parting with this car. It really is special and is the last of the true performance naturally aspirated engines.
Definitely. The Rover 200 BRM came from the factory with an LSD in 1998 and betting if we dig back in time there will be others. Might have been optional in some cases but essentially an LSD was available.
Ah yes, the dual clutch transmission, made infamous by that one top gear episode where they made fun of the german word for it, "Doppelkupplungsgetriebe"
Doppelkupplungsgetriebe, a perfectly straightforward German word that describes exactly what it does. I love the German language.
double=doppel
clutch=Kupplung
transmission=Getriebe
Same same...
@@Leynad778 see, it’s not that Germans like long words, it’s that they hate spaces. Probably something to do with efficiency.
@@andrewahern3730 No, it's one physical object so it gets one word. I think that's the logic (says my German intuition).
@@TheChannel1978 you must be German with that sense of humor
Loved how he casually asks if anyone has a Zonda knocking about
probably my unic car subscription cause i like you man, humble is the reason, clear explainanyion,simple language,serious. i have learned with nicevoice by the way. i know them all(tbh i prefer english than americans,so rug) english has this accent remembering me my arabic-fassi origins
Love this video … would be really great if you could make a follow-up looking at the physics of some of the technology developments in more detail. That’s what makes your great channel so unique :)
Good idea. Focus on digital car control and stability aids and you will have a full episode.
For those of us who started driving in the 1970's, "supercar performance" came even earlier. There have been numerous family cars for the last decade or so that could outperform the fastest (new) cars available in the US the mid-to-late 1970's. It is entertaining that my relatively inexpensive 2014 Focus ST could outrun the supercars of my youth.
mmm yes, I have a 1999 toyota celica GTS with TRD bumper + wing and while it looks fast, sometimes I wonder if the family SUVs around me are actually faster lol
@@samcharles1166 they are
I never expected to buy a hot hatch but I just purchased a Hyundai veloster turbo 3 months ago and it’s a blast
Im really looking forward to this series!
Subbed! Great vid man.
Great video & keep them coming! Just to say, the Focus mk1 had a 2.0 turbocharged rather than supercharged engine
Just what I was about to say. I don't think Ford Europe have ever used a supercharged engine?
@@davekennedy6315 Never-turbo only.
All turbocharged engines are supercharged, not all supercharged engines use turbos ;)
Also it has an automatic torque biasing diff, not a viscous coupling
@@meekrab9027 what?
Very true words - tyres and electronics have moved things a lot in 10 years. As a biker that does the ring in the high 7s btg I will openly say these hatchbacks corner speed are truly amazing now
Great series Scott!
This was rather well delivered. I felt educated without being bored at all throughout. Good job
As a prior owner of VW Golf GTI Mk.II 16V and having driven the GTI Mk.I I can see what your are saying, but for me that engine was worth it.
To be pedantic about VTEC: the 90s version of this system like in the Type R only changed valve lift, not timing.
To be more accurate, the original VTEC changed the entire camshaft profile, changing both lift and duration. It's practically impossible to increase lift without increasing duration, especially for a road car with camshafts that are supposed to last long.
"T" for timing.
Great video broski!
Great video. Love the hot hatches.😃
But another thing stuck in my mind after this one:
After 10:30 of the video, a guy is tightening the wheelnuts on a car clockwise. Is the "star-patern" outdated??🤔🤔
Tons of things changed on the Nürburgring too. Plenty of bumps removed, new asphalt in soo many sections , and so on.
Great video. In my opinition you forgot to mention chassis rigidity and bushings that are solid rubber these days. Definitely suspension upgrades and track expirience plus market demand for faster cars did also big part of the job
Talking about chassis rigidity isn't applicable though. There wasn't a general adhered to standard unlike say tyres. Advances in suspension technology has definitely made cars faster but it's still not applicable. Where do you draw the line?
Bushings have always been 'solid' for the most part where performance cars are concerned. Most use synthetic compounds with differing shore rates depending upon application.
The ultimate is to use ball joints/ spherical joints to replace most bushings but these can wear quickly depending on location and can make for a harsh and unforgiving ride.
@@skylined5534 more rigid chassis alows more rigid bushings, more rigid bushings alows more rigid suspension. Uniball is not for street car so only on certain positions. All this together helped, little by little plus tires and all that is mentioned in video. Tuning is setting A LOT of small pieces so they work together as one...
@@jurcicmax237
You missed the point. Bushing have always been 'solid' asides certain specialist types where NVH eliminatation is priority.
In some cases even street cars will have ball joint and spherical joint set ups. Most modern super cars for example. Heck, look at the front of an R50 or R53 mini, the lower location point for the front of the bottom arms which is usually a rubber bush is a solidly mounted ball joint. The rest from factory are polyurethane bushings. I have one so I know. I don't know what a uni ball is but I assume you mean what everyone else calls a ball joint or in some cases a spherical joint.
While torsional rigidity for chassis is desirable the same can't be said for just having uncompromisingly stiff suspension, in some cases it will make for a slower car.
The bit you mentioned about the GTI feeding more power to the left or right wheel to improve cornering?
Honda did that back in the 90's with their fifth gen Prelude. It's called ATTS - Active Torque Transfer System.
One of the ways the Prelude lived up to its name even if it wasn't Honda that used the technology in the end
Excellent information 👍🏻
Missed THE 205 GTI and Focus RS ain't Supercharged 😂
So the shorter conclusion is if you fit good modern tires on to the super cars or poster cars of ten years ago then they’d be able to do way quicker laps than these hot hatches. A 599 with good tires would be able to do a great lap
Not exactly. Today golf or civic have 350HP but 15 year old supercar have 450-550 HP. But that is peak power. Power at low RPM(let's say less than 4000 RPM) is actually higher on today's golf R than on 15 year old Maserati granturismo. They didn't have today engine management, turbo, valve timing, spark adjust, mixture control... and gearbox. Also gearbox is better today. Gear ratio is better. 6 or 7 or 8 gearbox speed tuned to 250 kmh is plenty optimised. 6 speed gearbox tuned to 330 kmh is quite shit consider engine poor power at low RPM.
So during race Maserati granturismo 470 HP is inly sometimes more powerful than golf R 350hp. It's also much heavier which means more heat in tires, brakes. Add those smart power delivery differential gismos which completely negate front wheel drive disadvantages... Old cars are just not faster
OK Ferrari 600+ hp... That would do the trick. I mean 620 vs 350... Can't beat that
I think the better conclusion is how much value there is in handling with current tech in terms of tires, suspension, weight, and differentials that a mere 300hp FWD compact were able to beat a much more capable car with older tech around a race track. Meaning, handling beats out power all the time
@@dragancrnogorac3851 Golf R is 4WD.
599 is a GT, it’s not an all-out sports/supercar
Fascinating, thanks 😊
I can't wait to make some comparisons on GT7 when it comes out in March. I have been watching these hatches for a while and this video really extols their virtues
how much would the old supercars improve their times if they got modern wheels?
I reckon they would be as fast as today's hot hatches
would love to see an old supercar with a complete engine rebuild and new tires driven by a professionell to find out
@@keisuketakahasi4584 I'm thinking something like a GT40 with a Voodoo swapped in, 6 speed, and modern tires. Along with whatever suspension changes need to be made to accommodate the new forces involved with the new tires.
Yup... Just hopped onto pcars 2 and did a 7:40.850 in the megane rs touring car round the nordschlieffe after watching this. Think Id shave off a few tenths if I wasnt limited to playing on a keyboard 👌🏾
First time watching your channel... I subscribed and 👍
I had a LZ Focus RS (AWD) and something I thought was cool about it was the rear biased handling. They achieved that by overdrive the dive shaft running to the rear diff which increased the torque and, voila! Rear biased handling from a front transaxle car.
Genius!
Independant steering axis and all the torque steer issues were cleared way before the 2009 Ford Focus RS. Renault Megane RS had this since 2004
I was thinking this too…
Only thing is all those Meganes have since fallen to bits so nobody remembers. Most of the Focus RSs are still around though.
@@soundseeker63 firstly, no, they have not and many are still going strong :) including mine. Secondly, nobody cares - it's history they are talking about here. First is first..
@@Tsynique "Many" being maybe 5% of the (already very small) numbers originally sold..? Literally can't recall the last time I saw a Mk2 Megane on the road of ANY version, never mind an RS!
Would love to see a video on RWD hatches like the Renault's and BMW 1 series
This video taught me about my 2nd dream car for the first time, thank you for showing the 1997 type r.
What an incredible video. Thanks
As a owner of a Civic Type R I can attest to this. Handling is top notch
Forza is a hell of a drug.
@@skylined5534 dude. lol. Not because u still live with your mom everyone else does the same.
@@skylined5534xD
sounds like a fun job.. Everytime a better tire arrives, race all older cars on it to set fair lap times. obviously it won't do as much difference on most older cars if you keep them stock because engines were not as powerful, brakes were not designed to use all this additional grip or dissipate the heat , and suspensions either
Their brakes tended to be top of the line for their era, but if you are changing the tires for modern variety, why not do the same with the brakes?
Leave the engines as they are, because older cars tended to be lighter as well.
wish you guys talked about the veloster N but REALLY good video
Didn't expect to get a documentary about the volkswagen golf but it's still a good video!
This begs the question, what in the bloody hell did Stefan Bellof to do 6:11 in a Porsche 956, basically a chassis with a big motor.....
You’re wrong about the Type R beating the R35 GT-R time on the Ring. Nissan originally lapped a 7:29 with tires available to the public and Porsche cried foul and decided to drive it and only got a 7:54. Nissan did several more laps and consistently lapped between 7:29-7:27. Don’t do the Type R owners dirty like that lmao
That's interesting! Do you have a source for the article? I wouldn't mind reading that!
@@skylined5534 just google 'nissan gtr 2010 nurburgring time' and you'll have a lot of articles regarding this
Anytime a non german car beats the nurburgring lap record, a big controversy starts, I wonder why xD
Even though they showed the R35, it is faster than the R34 GT-R, but then again an old Cobalt SS is as fast as a R34 GT-R around the ring.
Kinda people also talking about Saab 99 when talk about genesis of hot hatches. Great video btw
Your last statement re zonda negates the comment I was writing, awesome video as always
There's a saying in the smartphones world: "Good phones aren't getting cheaper, cheap phones are getting good"
This was a great video. Love the technical details and comparisons. Staggering how those little hatchbacks can beat cars that used to be 10 times more expensive only 10 years ago. I'd love to see like a Forza/Gran Turismo explanation for how and why cars get faster. What aspects can ordinary people copy from in-game upgrades and tuning menus, what things should they avoid? From my experience (virtually) seems like if you can improve shift times and slap on a better tyre compound it pushes your car up at least one performance class
Tuning in GT and many other games are simplifications but the video describes the real technical advancements (other than tyres) that also make modern cars faster. Differentials in video games are usually handled in vague terms, but how exactly diffs work can make a big difference.
Massive like and subscribe just for mentioning the Citroen Xantia!
Best episode ! Suzuki Swift Sport here !
Honda have registered a time of 7:43.8 with the Civic Type R, which is ridiculously impressive and a lot faster than some supercars of old. It is however not faster than at least 8 different officially recorded lap times for the Nissan GTR between 2008 and 2013, the fastest of which was a 7:19. The Nissan also hadn't had it's backseats and radio removed.
So if Verstappen's in the Honda and I'm in the GTR maybe, but you put anyone half decent behind the wheel of the Nissan and it's winning.
Maybe he mean skyline gtr ? Then he's correct
Max in a civic would smoke the shit out of you. You wouldn't get close to the stated times of a gtr because you're not a professional driver and wouldn't be able to drive at 10/10ths but just a few times in a lap.
No shit brain nofitzwellinurhead? You think?
I'm fan of the guy who drives that Xsara in the ring 👏🏼
A stock Civic Type R faster around the Ring than a Nissan GTR or a Pagani Zonda? Outrageous! And yet the numbers don't lie. In this well written and delivered presentation, the narrator makes a convincing case for the ascendancy of the hot hatch, adding where helpful just the right amount of technical detail. This old motorhead learned a lot and I'm now subscribed.
One point about tires. A car is designed around the tire technology of its era, and so a car from a given model year should be rated by its lap times on original-spec tires. Comparing the lap time of a McLaren F1 on today's tires would yield numbers that are invalid and thus not usable as a benchmark for comparing to any other car.
Instead, stay with the times recorded on original-spec tires and we are back to an even playing field where many other intriguing metrics are up for debate. My nomination for hot hatch advantage? Stability control and other digital car handing interventions that enable even a not particularly skilled driver to extract every ounce of his hot hatch's performance without fear of snap-oversteer and other unpleasant surprises.
This is inspiring me to drop a turbo V-6 into the '08 Toyota Matrix I've been trying to sell, and start racing it. But what wheels/tires would work? How much would I have to spend on updating the suspension? :)
Will hot hatches survive in the long run? Will manual boxes stick around
pretty much the real question here, as the EV's takeover is now inevitable
@@adlibbed2138 Honestly, I'm still not convinced about a take over, with present day tech. Fossil fuels have energy density, price and convenience that EVs are just not there yet to replace.
Manual gearboxes are already very hard to find in North America, but once internal combustion engines are legislated out of existence soon, they will be extinct everywhere. Our only hope is wide adoption of "zero emissions" synthetic fuel, but I doubt that happens...and not sure it's a viable alternative in any case.
@@ujjvalchauhan6628 With world leaders making decisions for us, not sure it will matter. Automakers wont continue development of cars they legally can't sell.
@@jbm0866 Sounds like common sense is being legislated out of existence.
Will they force the economy to make electric vehicles profitable, somehow, so that when a flood hits, and there's carnage here and there, the bad old gas guzzlers won't be need?
I'm sorry, but I believe I have to correct you.
Renault didn't copy the knuckle system from ford.
My Megane RS from 2005 does have this system.
In the video you said ford used it 2009. This is 4 years after Renault.
And if I'm not wrong, it also had a factory LSD before Ford, also.
i think the ford focus RS mk3 has a pretty interesting diff solution that is different to the other ones you mentioned.
power is delivered to the rear wheels via an electronically controlled wet clutch per wheel. separate clutch per wheel so power can be shifted side to side. wet clutch because the drive shaft is overdriven, so the clutches have to slip. overdriven so that it can put more than 50% of the power to the back. or at least thats why according the the marketing materials.
front diff is still open, which is kinda bad - still has torque steer. unless you have the limited edition mk3, which has a LSD in the front.
On April the 17th, the GT-R established a new record, completing the track in 7:27:56.14 May 2009.. the current civic type r record is 7:43.8
Excellent - tires being the real factor. Imagine old supercars, on modern tires, with their race-designed suspension and so on.
Apart from the testing that is way more serious today don't forget that the track is way faster and smoother than it was 10 years ago, lots of shaving of big bumps and resurfacing had been carried out recent years.
In that case I'd love to see how much of an advantage that is. A factory fresh say Mac F1 with equivalent fresh tyres. Could be interesting... or very dull... I dunno 😂
Very interesting thanks!
Thanks for sharing
Being faster does not mean they're better. I'll take an old sports car over a soulless Golf R any day of the week even if the Golf is 5 times faster around the Nurburgring...
All I can say, going fast is one thing and having will while riding your car is another.
Not saying you'll feel less happy if you're in a hatchback....but you're paying for a Supercar for its looks, feel and the aura around it in general.
True, but driving a supercar comes with baggage...the kind of baggage that would be fun for a couple months then quickly become a bother. (Dings and scratches, putting on mileage, living up to the lifestyle expectations etc) I vastly prefer cars that I can drive every day.. rain, shine, snow, whatever. An expensive garage queen would give me anxiety every time I brought it out.
@@jbm0866 anyone rich disagrees with you haha.
@@JacesOwnWorld Thats not always true. I know several people who could easily own a supercar or a few, but choose to drive more understated cars. Not ordinary or cheap cars by any means, just nothing too flashy. Some would prefer to drive a Porsche 911 from the 70-early 90's...after Singer has done their thing to it of course.
@@jbm0866 yeah as a software engineer out of the group of 12 only 3 own very expensive vehicles. we like to spend out money on other stuff or going on vacations etc. $160-$240k for a vehicle and maintenence is not reslly worth it. wealthy people are wealthy cause they are frugal with their cash, so I can agree with you for sure.
@@jbm0866 even a standard 911, it's an experience. You drive a 3.2 or even a 964, you don"t say ever say all cars feel and drive the same, or at least they didn't use to
nowadays... should I be surprise Porsche sell more EV than 911 ? meh...
Awesome video :)
8:52 Honda was doing exactly that in the late 90s, with the ATTS system on the 5th gen Prelude.
We don’t need more power. We need less weight.
I Love my RS🥰❤️
#alwaysunder8
This was fun. I've got a '97 Del Sol with a '97 Type R. It's got LSD built into the trannie. Really enjoyed your encomium to the good ol' Type R!
I know it's on the bottom end of the hot hatch spectrum, but my MK7 Fiesta ST has been one of the best "performance" experiences ever. I live up in the mountains of CO and every road up here is a twisty affair, so every drive is accompanied by a huge smile as that go kart carves corners like nobody's business. It's not a ton of power by any stretch, but you can carry so much of it with you... I've really been quite impressed with the engineering of this little chassis. It's just always fun to drive, begging for more corner.
Mistake at 7:08 - it's not a V6, it's a VR6 ;)
Still a V6.
@@skylined5534 A VR6 is a VR6, not a V6. It has some of the V6 features, yet it‘s still a VR6.
vr6 its à v6 15 degrées invented by Lancia , with only one head ,one blok engine, interesting v6 or not v6 ,that is the question.?😆
Some serious engines in these new hatches... but I still cant stand front wheel drive!!! :-)
Normally . Its for your grandma not for u
Meh, Isn't being a good driver the ability to adapt? they all have their pro's and cons .
It doesnt feel the same as RWD, I'll give you that, but modern hot hatches no longer plow through corners thanks to suspension geometry, electronic limited slip diffs and computer controlled brake trickery that works imperceptably to rotate the car when needed. Drive the latest GTI back to back one from a few generations ago and you'll see what I mean. I did this with a 2016 GTI I used to own and a friends restored MK2 GTI...the old one is still fun to drive, but not as good in tight cornering. (He had Michelin pilot sport tires versus my horrible Pirelli's, so that wasnt it)
@@goshu9718
Or for Forza heroes like you and the OP.
Really curious what the Elantra n will put down at the nurburgring. My mk7 Golf R is almost 7yrs old and the mk8R price has jumped too much, and I don't need AWD in Florida, so I think Elantra N seems perfect.
Love my mk5 GTI! Just put on some coilovers and sticky tires, it's like a new car with a much higher limit in the corners and I haven't driven it hard enough to squeal the tires yet as the threshold is higher than any other car I've owned.
Newer tyres and some suspension tweaks to deal with the increased grip and I think many would be surprised by how much the older supercar times would improve. The Mclaren F1 is a great example, it set its times on what we would see as absolute garbage rubber today. It had a race base ready, ultra light weight and alot of power. I for one would be very curious to see how well it would do.
Tire technology is a red herring. A car should be evaluated using its original rubber. Otherwise it will not accurately reflect its standing in its era.
Your F1 example IMO illustrates a more important performance-optimizing element: stability control. Rowan Atkinson couldn't make it down his driveway without crashing his F1. Setting the Ring record with one required a professional race driver. But thanks to stability control and related digital assists like torque vectoring, advanced traction control, and transmissions that shift smarter and faster than any driver, the extreme driving skill level required for a record time in a 10-year-old exotic is negated by computer-controlled hot hatches where a moderately skilled driver can extract every ounce of his car's performance simply by keeping the throttle planted and steering around the corners.
@@johntechwriter thats like saying someone running in clogs is slower than someone running with running shoes on... its not exactly wrong, but its hardly fair either. The chassis and engine are always limited by the tyres, and by design tyres are meant to be replaced, so unless you eliminate the variables such as tyres used, weather conditions etc. the times are not comparable
Hot hatches will be down to two in the U.S. next year after the Veloster N goes away. I am deathly afraid to bin my N as I will have to find a Golf R and pay through the nose. Hopefully Honda will offer a DCT/DSG in the Type-R someday.
I think Hyundai will continue to sell the Veloster N in the US. They are just discontinuing all other Veloster models.
@@bolt5564 Rumor from some dealers is that they are done after 2022.
@@gwcrispi Oh, I hadn't heard that. If that's true I am very disappointed because the Veloster N is one of my favorite cars.
I dont think Honda ever offer TypeR with auto trans. Honda never done that they think hothatches small cheap but fun cars which they right, golf r just a golf with faster drivetrain nothing more its not a hothatch for me and nearly all the car enthusiast
Why would you want an auto in a FWD hot hatch?
For the same money (and less ownership cost, surprisingly) just buy a 981 Cayman S with a PDK if you want that. Or an M2. Hot hatches should be manual!
...I'll let the RS3 off since it sounds so good. BMW and Merc can stick their hatches up their arses, frankly.
All this time I thought I was subscribed. My surprise!! I am now though. Great content.
Paused it at 40 seconds, I'm gonna guess it's a power to weight issue.
This is my thinking;
I have a 1968 Plymouth Barracuda fastback, when I'm done with all the major work, I expect it to tip the scales, with me in it at somewhere around 2900-3000 lbs. I am building a naturally aspirated, 3.580" stock stroke LA360 engine for it. Some of the things that I am doing include a solid flat tappet cam, significantly reduced valvetrain mass and balanced internals. This will allow it to rev very quickly. I am confident that this 360 build in this car will be in the mid 11's or better. My DesktopDyno software is predicting around 450hp and 500 Lbft torque. I am not aiming for a 10 second car because I don't want to put a cage in it at this time. Gearing is 4.10 so it will be quite quick off the line. I fully expect this to walk all over my '16 Scat pack Charger with the 392 HEMI. The Charger weighs around 4,400 lbs plus my fat butt at 200 lbs.
There you go. See you can still do some actual unbiased reporting on car stuff. Well done.
mk1 GTI set the formula for the modern hot hatch. FWD, fuel injected reliability, cosmetic and suspension enhancements... it's not just about Big Engine + Hatch, otherwise the Chevette HS beats the GTI, too. The whole formula matters, and the GTI was indeed the daddy.
Great video
You broke a lot of hearts in the first 30 sec.
Interesting topic, but I would have loved to have seen more comparison between old supercar engineering and what we have today, and why hot hatches are faster? What about tyre technology over the last 20 years? What about modern hot hatches being more expensive now than they have ever been - the RS3 costs £60,000 nowadays, taking inflation into account that's about £100,000 20 years ago... literal supercar money.
£60k 20 years ago is roughly £34k.
I don't think you know how inflation works....
Lol you got it backwards :)
New cars are getting faster and faster while old cars are old.
Saved you all 12 mins
Awesome segment but I would've loved to see some mentions of the Dodge Omni GLHS and Shadow CSX which fill in the game betweeen the GTI and the Type R.
The system in the new VW is very similar to the torque vectoring system in the late 90’s early 00’s Honda Prelude type SH that sends power through the front wheel with the most grip. It’s too bad Honda only added the system to the manual Preludes though.