Second Seals Are Ruining Unit Feel
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ส.ค. 2023
- Reclassing is a popular (and probably evergreen) feature of modern fire emblem, and has existed in 6 different forms so far, but the modern iterations are (in my opinion) making units feel worse. Here's a 15 minute ramble about it.
Sorry if the audio quality sucks, I recorded this a while ago and lost it on my hard drive. - เกม
Honestly in terms of reclassing mechanics I will stand by the fact that fates did it best. Each unit gets one easy reclass and then using supports you work to get them into other (sometimes a very limited number of) classes.
Because of this system you end up with a villager unit like Mozu that’s actually REALLY good in conquest because she’s your only access to the archer class line. (that is incredibly good in conquest) Units that can friendship with her (cough Effie cough) benefit a ton from the system.
On the complete opposite side of this you have Peri. Her secondary class is dark mage which doesn’t help her at all. Her friendship options are only troubadour, fighter, and merc which while are decent lines, none offer her flight which she really wants.
This system gives both the flexibility of getting units into classes you like while also giving every single unit their own unique feel and niche.
And to follow up on the critique that “everyone becomes a wyvern”. Most of the wyverns in fates have to get it naturally. Elise, Camilla, Xander, and Beruka. Elise and Xander can’t really pass Wyvern to anyone so you’re reliant on Camilla and Beruka for it. This by itself gives an incredible niche for both of these units that others can’t replicate. You’re given the option to utilize these units to give the class to others but not everyone can get it. It by nature prevents you from having everything become “same-y”. All of this while still allowing for a ton of flexibility in classes and maintaining each units unique feel.
Yep. Giving everyone 1-2 reclass options is nice to give flexibility while keeping unit identity; X can be better than Y in stats, but Y's different class options can make it better than X in a different way. If everyone can reclass to everything, then join time, level, growths and bases are all that matter.
I also did like how Fates DIDN'T reset Levels so you REALLY had to think on when you want to reclass a character (Turning a HEAVILY Physical Character into a Mage when their high level for example would be a BAD idea if they don't get enough MAG to make Tomes useful, and don't have a physical alternative if they are not something like Dark Knight to put that STR stat to use!) Better then what Awakening and Engage if in Awakening you remember what a Monster Donnel can turn into because of it! Honestly I've never tried! I'm of the traditional FE player mindset of "Beat the game, select new game, play it again with a different end game group and maybe class choice in the case of those FE that have Reclass"
And I agree with Peri, I can get because of her backstory, dark mage seems to make sense (guess they were thinking you'd go down Dark Knight) but I'd have gone with .
I do believe E rank in Weapon Ranks needs to disappear forever, or if it remains, ONLY make weapon Proficiency SLOWER when you get to the HIGHER Weapon Ranks! Like around B-A is when you start seeing "Fates Weapon XP requirement" slowdown! Honestly while I like Engage just plain GIVING YOU the Ranks based on the selected class and if a character has an innate, some get a RANK increase with that weapon! Their aren't enough classes to REALLY utilize this much! Like Tome, Staff and Bow Innate feels useless because you have the NATURAL S rank Sages/High Priest/Sniper and Tome gets it the worse because they don't have any other alternative that boosts Tome rank! Feels like Dark Flier or Malig Knight was a consideration before they scrapped the idea. I think this might work in a "Weapon Durability" FE game then a "All weapons but Staves are unbreakable" as since they don't break, you might as well have SOMETHING to work with to improve! and S rank weapons were just so POINTLESS in Engage! The ones you get in Chapter 22 & 23 can find use, but afterwards any S ranks come REALLY late to matter much! You've likely upgraded a B or A rank weapon to MATCH an unmodified S rank anyway! Only S rank I can say I like are the FIRST Sword you get and the Spear you get in Chapter 22! The rest are behind LITERAL in-game paywalls that is the Donation system, and I don't like to use skirmish's much being more of a Old School when those didn't exist and I ignored them in Echoes and Sacred Stones other then the Tower if I use a Trainee unit to promote them out their class quickly and Three Houses where you had a limited amount of times TO do them! I do like how Engage discourages using them once you go past Level 20 via BS, and the DLC is secretly the XP DLC/Divine Paralogues and Gold DLC/Fell Xenologue while not being so heavily abusable few making them apart of the frequency of Skirmish's appearing ONLY after you beat them!
I will say if they do bring back the Friendship/Marriage Seal system, to make it less annoying to get to (Keep Engage's "Activity" function they patched in that lets you more easily get Support points outside of battle, but expand more then three times, maybe Five Times per HQ Reset after a battle) and as you mentioned with Peri
And yes Mozu is GODLY in Conquest (Birthright and Revelations I usually forget about her! In Conquest, the lack of Takumi and his BS personal Legendary Bow means she has NO competition in her quest to S ranking Bows, and she does make good additional support on whoever else is using Bows in my run, usually I have Niles and/or Shura/Anna and I do not keep Severa/Selena in her starting class often, usually I change her to Sky Knight and utilize her to have a flyer backing up Camilla and since her Mag sucks, Kinishi Knight is her usual final destination. But if I use Beruka to back up Camilla, she's made a Bow Knight)
Loved the Fates system. Probably the best reclass system in my opinion.
fates wins it again, people hate on it but in time they too will see the truth
Clearly the answer is to introduce the Third Seal, which allows you to promote into a mix between FE4 Master Knight and FE8 Summoner to gain every single possible thing in the game that a class can have
My problem is more just that there is no limit anymore. Everyone can be everything, so everyone feels identical towards the end. At the very least, three houses had unique combat arts or spells on specific units, but engage is just pure freedom. You'd think it would add replayablity, but instead it just makes it harder to play using different units, since in the end they inevitably just feel like the same units as the last run.
At least Engage has different stat growths and personal abilities to help differentiate units. So it isn't like every character can just go Sage and perform equally to each other. And I think for the most part your going to want to have a diverse team for each map, I think a unit's personality and design can help them stand out
@@cryguy0000 the problem is that engage personal abilities aren't super impactful, so it fails at that level of unit individuality. furthermore personality and design only are a piece of the puzzle for me, i learn to like characters that perform well (or at least perform a unique role) in combat and i think many other players feel the same. if every unit can have the same effectiveness as another it just makes building them very boring. if we get another engage situation where the personalities are one-dimensional and the designs are... polarizing, i'd at least like each unit's capabilities to naturally reflect who they are as a character.
I would prefer a return to Sacred Stones style branching promotions, but, with a 3 tier promotion line like Radiant Dawn, so your branches become almost a web
You get the benefits of being able to tweak your army somewhat in a way that suits you without totally destroying unit identity and uniqueness, I think
adding onto this, unlike Sacred Stones, they would need to balance the choices so that they feel equal (ex: Great Knight>General 100% of the time).
There’s a fe8 hack that kinda goes this called Code of the Black Knights. Unfortunately it’s super glitchy and just overall poorly made but it used a lot of cool ideas like that
I have been thinking that class should not be the choice, but instead the choices be within the class or the unit themselves.
Skill trees with a mix of generic, class and personal skills to learn would be a greatly improved set of choices without utterly destroying uni/character uniqueness and identity.
This is the class system I have in mind for "The Perfect FE Game Tailored Made for One Person" (which is me) with sandbox reclassing being a new game+ prize. I have an idea of New Game+ in said made up game basically allowing one to break the game in half if they wish since they've already cleared it.
@@0715yt COBK has so much effort put into it and it has a really good story though. It's a hack that's worth your time if you don't Iron man it.
I personally love the reclassing in Three Houses because it was built around it, everywhere else it does not feel like it should be there.
I love fates, reclassing, it gives the characters a bit more of story telling by what classes they have, and being able to give classes to other people gives them weird niches, like kaze being able to make someone a ninja in conquest, or laslow being a really good sol ninja with the least amount of seals, it feels so good working within the limits of the game, and the game also limiting the amount of seals you get until the endgame also makes getting everyone into a specific class harder, also i like seeing how many auras i can make felicia have.
I think the issue with Engages unit feel is that it was given to the Emblems over the characters. An easier fix without changing much would've been having Embelms only having affinity with a few distinct characters so each user is unique. If Lyn could only be used by Alear, Ivy, Alcrest, Chloe and Pannette each user would feel very different giving characters back their uniqueness.
big agree
@saltyralts I was thinking Alear would probably be able to use every ring in that scenario. Alear would end up the best unit since they have access to all skills but I'm for the lords being one of the strongest units.
My personal issue with Engage’s system is very specific, but it’s that my favorite unit is completely robbed of anything interesting. Wyvern Kagetsu, because of how strong he is even on maddening, will realistically have SEVERAL levels on most characters in your army and on each new recruit, and it means that Rosado is literally worse than him in every single stat when he comes. Fates reclassing was the best imo because it stopped situations like this from happening with both branching classes and limited options for reclasses.
I think that second seals should only be a thing in New Game Plus, but should be available immediately at a cost so it is not a trivial choice.
That's pretty much how I already play tbh.
Using seals the first time doesn't feel right
Makes sense for your “second” playthrough why not give me the choice to switch folks up but giving them from the get go like in 3Houses and Engage yikes it makes the class system bad since like in the latest installments Wyvern > everything else
I like this idea, but you could also compromise and make Second Seals available in your first playthrough but be reasonably rare. Like, you get four or five across your entire playthrough or something around those lines, maybe less.
But then in NG+ they're just buyable from vendors
I always liked the fe 8 version giving options on classing up, but still keeping a class identity for a character. A balanced version of the choices you have, especially with the recruits allows you to make reasonable choices but without an entire team of wyverns.
I really wish reclassing wasn't so free, as it makes me tend to avoid it. To be honest. I am on my fifth engage playthrough, and I've only reclassed characters starting from my third playthrough, and only with ones I've used before in the standard class. I actually might like engage's system if they kept second seals as limited as they are early game until at least chapter 22, because then you would have to choose which units you want to reclass.
I've never actually reclassed a unit in fe11 because I felt the system was way too free, and I stuck to characters boons in three houses just to try to retain class identity
I think fates did it the best. Its almost required in lunatic to skill dip in other classes which makes your unit feel both meaningful while also making your experience with them feel personal.
I disagree that reclassing is "Easier than ever" in Three Houses - compared to FE11 and 12 where you can reclass to anything freely with no qualifications or skill benchmarks being required.
I also think Units are more distinct than they have ever been in FE16 - Units have a massive list of individualised combat arts, abilities, crests, boons, banes, budding taletns, personal abilities, spell lists, and of course, Base Stats and Growths. Sure, specific classes for each unit would enhance this further, but this is still *way* more distinction than most units in most other games.
I also disagree that this isn't relevant for a casual playthrough. Players will absolutely notice that Dorothea gets Meteor, whilst Hubert get's Dark Spikes, or - as you mention archers in your example - Bernadetta get's encloser, and deals more damage due to Persecution Complex, whereas Ignatz is more accurate, and get's things like a lot of rally supports and easier access to high rank battalions.
But regardless, you mention that "all three archers feel similar too each other", but how does classlocking solve that problem? Since when have units in similar roles ever felt unique - It's not like the archers in FE7 - Wil and Rebecca - feel like drastically different units? Cain and Abel in FE1 feel similar to each other, as do Bord and Cord. I don't see how "The archers feel similar to each other" is a problem which is in any way affected by whether classes are locked or it is an open class system. The "Three archers" in three houses are *way* more distinct to each other than units have been in similar roles in the past.
Infact it can sometimes be the opposite. Lowen, Sain, and Kent, Rebecca and Will, Bartre and Dorcas, Guy and Lyn, etc, all feel so similar because they have nothing that sets them apart other than their classes. Even when these units have clearer differences - like Oscar and Kieran with different base weapons - The limitation on classing still makes them feel functionally similar, compared to say, a Bernadetta vs an Ignatz who both go in to Bow Knight.
This basically also hey you're that guy. Characters are super unique, at least in 3h, engage less so. But if 3H didn't have such unique units tier list discussions wouldn't be as interesting as they are (and divisive in some cases). Keep up the great content btw
@@marcoasturias8520 I dont agree with your original assessment at all - Edelgard, Petra, Sylvain and Ashe can all go Wyvern Lord and have completely different optimal builds in the class. The former takes advantage of Raging Storm, Petra can Dodge Tank extremely effectively, Sylvain will be a player phase menace with Swift Strikes, and Ashe would prefer a Wrath/Vantage build.
Tanks are absolutely not useless and I don't know what you mean by "Wall", but I have an entire playthrough on my channel of using Protection Tank Hilda.
A lot of units want to forgo faire in favour of things let higher movement or better stat capabilities.
No class minimums give Raphael the doubling potential that Petra has, or Lorenz a charm equivilant to Dimitri's.
Crests are absolutely not useless.
I don't know how you can argue that Boons and Banes can be ignored, tutoring doesn't involve any grinding at all, and no amount of grinding is giving Dorothea access to Frozen Lance, for example.
Personal abilities definitely aren't weak, don't get powercrept quickly - look at things like Lysithea's Mastermind, Bernadetta's Persecution Complex, or Byleth's Professors Guidance, as easy examples.
All females are dodge tanks? Sorry but when are Edelgard, Marianne or Shamir utilised as Dodge Tanks just to pick a couple of examples?
I'll be honest, to me, 3H has a lot of random skills that units get that are technically beneficial but aren't really all that especially impactful and can wind up accomplishing similar goals to other much better abilities.
Bernie's entire load out is super interesting, I love it, but because of Hunter's Volley you can just pick a unit with 5 higher strength than her and completely invalidate her niche usefulness in most situations. If just Ignatz and Shamir could go Sniper she would be a top tier archer, but someone like Hilda can run Bernie's build way better simply because her singular stat in strength is higher. That's the dilemma 3H faces.
@@CarbonMalite Hilda doesn't get Vengeance or Encloser though.
@@JonoabboFE Why would you need movement lock or conditional melee damage when you can just KO, from a safe distance at full HP.
I like the fates reclassing system the most because it keeps reclassing and unit identity since units have specified roles to fill. I don't want the fates support system to come back, but if they reworked it to be like certain units get classes from second seals or one to two classes from A supports with people like Louis and Chloe or Clanne and Framme. I like the options but I also like that you have to work for it (kinda) and you can't just throw anyone into anything
Conquest did this the absolute best. Like the earlier games with reclassing, a unit will have 1-2 different ones they can change to. However, with supports, proper planning means some units can get into partner, and friend classes.
I think recalssing is sick, but i wish there were more limits. Maybe personal lists of possible reclasses. Maybe only being able to reclass into a certain set of classes, like only having the option of warrior, berserker, hero, or wyvern. I wish units stood out more but it would suck if we lost the customizability that makes planning runs of three houses for instance so fun
I didn't really mind in 3h, every unit has clear class paths they want to take and following that for the most part gives you a diverse army. And there they all had unique combat arts, personals and distinct and well written personalities which made each one feel unique. I wouldn't say it's really a bad thing, because at the end of the day a mage is a mage, a flier is a flier, you might want one and someone has gotta fill that roll. There are characters who clearly fill those rolls better then others and that's what makes them stand out, if you make an army of wyverns of course they'll all feel the same because you made the conscious choice to make them the same. I do enjoy Awakening's limited choices for each unit, and I wouldn't mind seeing it return. I just think Engage made it too easy to switch, and classes having sub par abilities tied to them makes half of them feel weak.
Also I just wish guys could ride pegasi, and Veyle has a cool class I just wish you got her for more than 4 chapters, justice for the dragon gremlin
Maybe they should have something with the special profieciencies in Engage. They could have a few negative profieciencies alongside their positive one (e.g. this unit is proficient with swords but inefficient with axes and staves). It would give them small combat debuffs, -1 weapon lvl, and maybe reduce the class growth rates (or something like that). They could also buff the weapon proficiency like S rank can only be accessed through it, minor combat buffs, and maybe increased growths. Anyone "could" go into any class but it would be incentivized to choose ones the unit is good with.
I actually really like the Three Houses method for that game. Planning out builds and trying to get all the skills for their builds while getting the most out of your resources. I think units have an identity in how they grow into their final builds. The reward is in the journey and the performance of the unit in the end.
Engage's unit identity problems are multifaceted. Some stem from getting better units later. People wanna talk about Etie VS Alcryst, but the real problem with Etie is that you get Amber later and he's just a better Etie. Why invest in a unit like Etie when, even if you heavily invest in her, Amber is literally just her, but better. Thats an older FE design philosophy, created because of permadeath; FE1-its remakes. The second seal and reclassing availability isn't even the worst problem, it's a symptom of older fire emblem unit design being integrated in modern reclassing mechanics design. If you make it so anyone can be anything then make the units themselves hella unique; so that some options are just too labor intensive, or the end result is too subpar to bother with (in Three Houses you can make Lysithea a Mortal Sevant, but her damage output and support abilities perform so poorly in that class, it'd be a waste. You can do it, but the payoff is meh compared to her better options). And if you limit the reclassing options make sure that the options that are available are rewarding to pursue (Neither of Kellem's reclassing options are fun to play with his stats, especially in a game with such competitive deployment opportunities).
I am convinced that Icedcoffee Gaming is the only TH-camr that knows how to use Timmerra. Because she is one of the best units in the game, and to this video's point, has hella statistical and mechanical identity.
Reclassing is fun from a gameplay perspective, but yeah, it's a shame that you dont see characters who really tie their class to their personality anymore. I liked having Marcia, the deserted Pegasus knight who still sticks to her training, or Volke, the thief who charges money to open locks because he's saving for some unknown goal, etc. It's similar to how having every character be pawns in a dating sim means you can no longer have characters like Pent and Louise, who are devoted to each other, or Renault or Garcia, who are too old/jaded to be interested in dating. I would really like to see a Renaissance of low-budget old-school FE games. If IS released a 2D, $30 FE adhering to GBA-era design choices, I'd buy ten copies and give them away as gifts.
Bravo to that!
The freedom of reclassing is weird to me. Like, I mostly don't reclass much because I'm lazy and don't really see the point most of the time, plus I like my units feeling distinct from one another and fitting into certain roles in my army.
While my gut reaction is just "if you don't want to use it you don't have to," that ends up being strictly untrue in games like Fates where, especially in Conquest Lunatic, if you don't reclass at least some of your units you're going to have a significantly harder run, but you won't even know that if you don't invest yourself into the reclassing system in the first place.
Ultimately reclassing is just a system I personally have a number of aversions to, and as such isn't going to be something I am going to enjoy most of the time when it appears, and because I have a natural aversion to it I haven't really put a lot of thought into it.
I still really like being able to make my favorite characters into whatever class I want. I thought the fates reclass system was solid, needing some planning or investment for certain classes, but I liked your ideas about having 2 reclass systems. I'm curious how it'd be if they limit the number of seals, or add a new and limited type of seal allowing you to reclass into anything.
I think at least the idea of an open reclassing system works for Three Houses because of the ways it differs from the rest of the series (limited unit access makes it so each unit is inherently more valuable, emphasis on training over the course of the game, etc) and I think with a few tweaks it could've been perfect. My tweaks would be A) the boons/banes should be a bit more impactful, so it would be near impossible to get say Dimitri into a class like Wyvern Lord and B) the classes themselves need to be more balanced and distinct from each other. Even when putting units into a wide range of classes they still end up feeling like the only 2 class types are 'magical' and 'physical'. Locking classes to certain weapon types and increasing the unique actions they can take would've helped this. That said, I agree with you in general, in games without 3H's quirks, when you have access to such a huge cast wholly open reclassing becomes more of a negative even if it is fun in some ways.
Second Seals take the value out of units, I agree.
There is just a lot more replayability in a Fire Emblem game when you beat for example Sacred Stones using Eirika, Seth, Ephraim, Tana and Duessel and then decide to do a new game run with Eirika, Franz, Gilliam, Marisa and Vanessa on focus.
You lose that feeling because of Second Seals. Characters no longer feel like they're worth exploring when you know the only thing that can redeem them is how they fare in a Support conversation.
On the contrary however, it IS extremely fun to explore playthroughs with Second Seals where every character is the same class or normally physical characters dip into magic / magic users try steel.
FE8 did it right, that being said. Every T1 / T0 (Trainee) had an opportunity to reclass into one of two possible classes upon promotion. It wasn't as extreme as Second Seals turning Sages into Great Knights, but for trainees it made an intense difference whether or not they'd be a General or a Paladin.
I think Restricted and/or Sandbox mode sounds perfect. I always like replaying games, so more options to mix it up sounds really fun.
But yeah, it's why I (almost) never reclass during my first FE playthrough. Just so I can get the "real feel" from them.
I haven’t finish the video yet (8 minutes so far), but I found it really weird you haven’t talked about emblems THE ENTIRE TIME you talked about engage, or starting SP for that matter. Slower units like Etie (or even Ivy and Alcryst who just doesn’t hit double threshold sometimes) is significantly better with Lyn, speedy but low damage units like Lapis is better with weapon sync, etc. I agree that some units are just “big stat stick”, but you also mentioned playing the game with a casual mindset, so my counter argument is just… don’t use them? Like I played 3 playthroughs with Engage so far, and I have not used Kagetsu a single time because any discussion of unit strength or unit feel is somewhat irrelevant because Kagetsu is objectively one of the best physical unit in the game. I also found it weird you made an Etie vs Amber argument when Amber’s personal skill is one of the more noticeable one in game and Etie has basically no personal skill.
I think this whole issue is player blaming their lacking of creativity onto the game system to be frank. I’d much prefer to have a reclass system like engage or 3h where I can, with relatively low efforts, make a weak unit I like work, or have meme builds like dark flier Edelgard, rather than Ryoma/Xander solos everything.
I do agree awakening/fate has the better reclass system, but some of the other design issue made it less obvious, mainly the stat check nature of the two games in higher difficulty.
in Engage, a good self-imposed "challenge" is that people always have to be in a class that uses whatever their inherent skill is (and if they start in a class without it like Anna you have to keep both their inherent + whatever they start with)
This perfectly sums up my thoughts on reclassing. I've felt Awakening has the best reclass system for a long time. Characters still keep their unique identity as a unit, while also having different options to spice up second playthroughs.
It's sorta inevitable that an FE4 remake will have reclassing (even though I hope it doesn't). If it does have it, I really hope it's like Awakening, even down to passing down classes to child units.
No/Limited reclass is also a problem, just see Seth. Because of his base and the class having 8 moves. Franz, Forde and Kyle all wants to be Paladin, and everyone else is shafted. ESPECIALLY the ones that doesn't promote into a horse class (Rip Joshua). Same thing with Sigurd in FE4, the infamous horse emblem. No/Limited Reclassing makes units too different where weak units will NEVER catch up.
Funny you mention Engage Anna too because true optimization actually puts a tie between Mage Knight/Sage/Warrior. The consensus is that because early second seal is so hard to come-by, even if Anna stays in the Warrior class line, she can still contribute a lot with the radiant bow instead of using the resource. She can one round a lot of the abundant fliers in Engage with little investment.
There really isn't much of an "Elegant" solution to this. But I always advocate for more agency and choices on the player. If you want to give everyone their default class, that's one way to play. If you want to meta game the system and go full wyvern, that's also a way to play. There are no "Right" way to play except for the way to play which is most fun for you. And what makes a unit feel unique will fall to their design, story, support and paratext. Which I think is fine? When I think about my favourite units, I don't tend to remember "ahhh yes, Lute the mediocre mage knight". I remember "Lute the prodigal sorcerer" or "Hana the serious retainer".
I don't remember Lute the Magic Knight because she generally go Sage to take advantage of that sweet Mag growth.
FE8 is an intersection example, because there's a reason General Amelia is the meta. You could have yet another Paladin that fails to reach Seth, or you could have an actually fun, unique unit, that does something no one else can. Sure, it's not something great, but the game is easy enough to allow this kind of experimentation.
FE8 also offers a potentially interesting class choice with Gerik that gets the choice between 1-2 range or movement during its promotion. In practice, it's not as interesting, but I'd like reclassing to offer actual tactical choice
@@shytendeakatamanoir9740 Growth really don't matter in FE8, especially because Lute won't cap levels if you're using Seth optimally, and promoting Lute at 10. The extra 5 magic CAP is overkill compared to the extra move that MK provides (that you also get as soon as you class change instead of having to rely on level ups). Lute will have trouble keeping up with the Paladin squad if you don't promote her into mage knight. Her best role is to be a staff/2 range cavalry support for Seth.
Also General Amelia isn't the meta because Amelia isn't meta. But even if we're strictly speaking the "best" build for Amelia. Paladin is still leagues better than general. Because 8 moves is just SO MUCH better than 5. General Amelia will never reach the frontline when the Paladin squad is gonna just clear everything.
And this is a great point as to WHY reclassing, especially more available reclassing exist. No unit, except Amelia has this option to become General or Paladin, and this choice of meta vs fun is only locked to Amelia. But it doesn't have to be. If people want to have fun then I say let everyone be a general, if they wanna meta then let everyone be a paladin. Reclassing does NOT change how you play. If you don't want to reclass, you don't have to reclass. Let players decide what works for them.
Three Houses having warp per map + stride helped infantry units close the movement gap.
Base movement will always be OP and fliers ignoring terrain is almost always a boon. So let’s go Thracia and add dismount for indoor maps. While we’re at it stamina can make a come back too.
I just generally play the newer games like FE3H/Engage with people in their canon classes, or at least classes that sorta kinda make sense, like ones they have a hidden talent in. I also limit myself to 1 per same class to avoid wyvern syndrome.
So I know it’s not an actual Fire Emblem game but I really like how Code of the Burger King chose to handle reclassing. Using a reclass item, each character will shift one class in a line into another. Hero shifts into Wyvern Lord, Female Archer shifts into Peg Knight, Mage shifts into Dark mage, senator shifts into Emperor, etc. since you can’t choose what class you shift into, reclassing becomes based entirely around starting class, ensuring that what class a unit shifts into becomes a big part of unit viability and utility. Sephiran is considered one of the best units in the game, not because he has busted skills or anything but because he can B-Side (reclass) into Emperor (a walking debug menu.) Each unit still has a unique feel to them thanks to skills but they have the freedom to change things up and sometimes fulfill entirely different roles.
There's a few different things that I think ruin being able to reclass in the couple of FE games I've played that have it. The actual class balance itself is a big part of that. Being able to just reclass all my units to Wyverns in Three houses and be viable is pretty bad. The player needs to feel encouraged to use a big variety of unit types. I also think they could go even harder into making person skills that just work better with certain classes rather than making general ones. Skills that activate off a specific stat I find to be the best motivator since you're then focused in on the classes that provide the best growths for that stat.
That said, I like finding fun builds that take a character in an entirely different direction than was intended. Clann is a great example of that seeing as he has the lowest magic growth of any mage in Engage. Upon closer look I realized he has some pretty high speed and dex growths so I spent some time pivoting him into Wolf knight and now no one can hit him and he delivers massive crits in return. In the end, this feels like it's going to be an ongoing problem for the series because of just how hard it is to find the right balance. It definitely should keep existing though because there's a lot of fun to be had with it. Character identity does matters though so I'm hoping they find ways to make them not too similar when it comes to their gameplay design.
I think Echoes had the best class system. The only thing that would’ve improved it is branching, but the fact that you could only reclass after getting an endgame/dlc item was perfect. It also was lacking in class variety but I don’t mind that tbh
The ironic thing about Echoes is to me it is the best FE game but people hate it because some of the maps were unfavorable.
Echoes was the best because you can grind and make god units OR you can just reclass asap and it was on par challenge wise. The game was well balanced.
@@samhall5096 "some of the maps".
@@AstraProc Celica's act?
I always had a weird feeling about reclassing but this video puts it pretty perfectly in a way I couldn’t articulate. What I will say is that I think it’s kinda weird to compare 3 houses with engage so close sky in terms of class system. Like you said in the video 3h has was more differentiators for their cast like boons/banes, combat arts, budding talents, and spell lists. But I disagree that they only differentiate in high level play, as I feel that all those factors are still relevant to casual players. That and given the route system of the they wanted to give them each house some of the basic class roles since many people don’t know how to game the recruitment system and will get 2 or 3 out of house students at most. Over all though I think three houses’s sandbox is it’s biggest strength but I do agree there is something lost in a feeling of less uniqueness. Just not to an as large extent as engage who’s class system I have a much bigger issue with. Good video!
This is a certified hood classic.
I think reclassing should either be something for a new game+ or something like Fates Heart Seal where a character has an alternate class that relates to their character. So its only their base class and one other class instead of having 100+ reclassing options. I think that's a decent middle ground. Hell, I edited this comment to add this, but if you want to make that alternate class more unique maybe give them access to weapon they would have normally if its their proficiency. Like an Axe-Magic Sage or something like that.
Also shout out to personal skills as they carry unit uniqueness for the modern games a lot more than one would think, which is why I'm sad Engage kinda held back on so many of them. I think Fates was the peak of personal skills.
Also this is my personal opinion (this whole comment is my personal opinion, but I digress) but reclassing just feels overwhelming for someone like me.
Very solid video and you perfectly summed up most of my own thoughts on reclassing as a mechanic at this point
Only difference is that I'm more of a fan of Shadow Dragons (I haven't played much of FE12 so no real take on that) reclassing due to how open it is yet still managing to make most characters base classes feel the best for them
That clip of FE4 with the units classed into whatever totally suits the point
I like the spell list system in three houses for individual unit feel personally. Even units that are the same class can feel vastly different from each other, which is both interesting and a greater incentive to run a variety of mages so that you have more options.
As a side note, I'm a huge fan of Dragon Quest, and I thought it was very interesting that healer-focus characters tended to learn wind offensive magic when leveling reason in Three Houses.
For those that don't know, in the dragon quest series most offensive spells are learned by mages except for the wind spell line, which is usually exclusive to priests (and the only offensive spell line they have access to), and the lightning spell line, which is usually exclusive to the hero.
I'm not sure if giving Linhardt and Flayn, as two examples, wind magic was intended to be a nod to Dragon Quest Priests, but I'm going to enjoy it as if it was all the same.
I made Vander a Griffin Knight because, "if his build is low, might as well make him a flier," and he was actually gaining exp outside of Paladin.
One idea I have is having all basic classes available for all units while having only a few promotes which depend on the unit.
I think three houses does a good job with reclassing given a lot of boon and banes, along with growths, do incentivize you to go into specific classes or it’s a hard time. I think the fact a lot of character are supposed to built up from the ground up I think it works good for this kind of game.
Engage has some samey feels and I agree with this to a point. Some characters have good freedom with this while others don’t due to their personal growths. They also tried to use weapon proficiency to limit this but it’s dumb easy to get it with the emblem rings.
FE11 and FE12 have the reclass problem the worst of any game in the series. There are limited lists but no one has any unit feel due to the lack of most characters having personality or limited supports. There is zero cost to reclass at any point and it destroy any niche or feel a unit has.
Generally I do not like reclassing in most FE games unless it is built like three houses where you are building students from the ground up. I think there is a good middle ground for this but it has to be a limited list and limited reclassing for games not built like three houses.
i really liked the reclassing system in awakening limit gen 1 to 3 or 4 class branches each based on the characters personality even if they dont make sense like rickens reclass options are the exact same as chroms but i think thats because he looks up to chrom and wants to be like him so his reclass options are chroms reclass options though i dont think hed be any good in either as hes a mage and both are physical classes. but i like how the avatar can become any class for roleplaying purposes like if your making an evil childe character have them reclass to dark mage specialising in dark magic. but i agree to make everyone happy having a limited or sandbox mode would be ideal for future games in limited the devs could make unique outfites for each class the characters have like how in awakening lissa's sage outfit looks exactly like emmeryn's while every other sage looks generic. its like how they added both casual and classic as people generally dont like having to reset after someone dies.
I think a mix of awakening and fates where you only get 2 other options but you keep the level and get past skills could be fun, this kind of thing would be the ideal balance IMO
i was literally JUST thinking of this while playing engage yesterday. i think reclassing is really fun, specifically in 3h and engage, but i'm wondering if it comes back in a genealogy remake. i think an idea like fates heart seal and only having maybe one or two very different paths could be cool if they HAD to do it for fe4r
one way i try to not fuck up my unit feel is by GENERALLY not reclassing everyone. even on maddening azure moon(granted i did use a lot of ng+ for byleth), i kept most people close to their starting class because i find it fun. I left dimitri in great lord despite it being worse paladin because i like the crit animation and it makes it fun for me
my maddening run soon is 100% going to be mostly or entirely no reclassing
I think it would be better if they did something like in shadow dragon where they have a limit to how many units can be a certain class, forcing you to decide who makes best use of it
FE12 fresh save is interesting but lacks polish.
Having 2 sets makes Kriss to choose what class he starts because going for easy prologue as armor knight exclude access to draco, paladin, sniper and swordmaster. But every units from the same set having the same choices starting with the lowest weapon rank feels the same
I like the idea of limit reclass choice in awakening, but in practice, I feel all units the same if they can survive the enemy phase (with sol, nostanking or just having good stats).
I would prefer no reclass option, like tear ring saga, giving funny jokes.
If I have to choose to fix reclass, I would make a mix of fe12 and awakening/fates. Everyone can reclass to one or two class line. And you have to beat the game once to unlock friendship/marriage seals to make your sandbox run.
I wonder what a game would be like where you get ‘class seals’ that change a unit to a certain class, no requirements necessary, but the seals are finite in number.
Any one unit can be a wyvern rider, so choose wisely!
I love the idea of customising my units with skills but I don’t like having to reclass units into weird classes and grind them to get said skills, unless the whole game is built for that like 3 Houses. Actively trying to get skills in Awakening in particular just felt very grindy, and then their base stats would get so high that by builds themselves didn’t really matter, so whenever I played Fates I was just turned off the idea of reclassing, even if it looks like they addressed my issue with the level resetting.
What I like with Engage is that I can give my units whatever skills I want on them (if they have the SP) without being forced to engage with reclassing. I don’t think I reclassee anyone on my first run and the units I used felt unique from each other, while also feeling like my own team because of the skills I gave them. On a no-reclass run Engage just hit the right spot for me. On my second run of Engage I only reclassee Alear (to wolf knight), Anna and Jean and used some other units I didn’t use for the long term like Merrin (team just got full) and Panette (who died in her join chapter in my first run)
I love Fates’ gameplay so maybe I should try playing Conquest again and giving reclassing a try, seeing what skill sets I can make with that system
While I haven't played any of the games pre-awakening I do agree with your point as I don't like having all of one unit type. I disagree with the unit feel thing. With what I choose when it comes to units it is purely on a "do I like this person" thing I don't really use any unit I don't like and differentiating them by their personalities would solve this issue, but I'm sure that it's different for people who play the game for the numbers over anything else.
Engage probably just learned from Xenoblade 3, where everyone can be any class they want (except for Noah's one pseudo-class). In Xenoblade 3 stats also barely differ .
I think a new reclassing thing could be fun. I think fates has a great system held back by the choices that appear as reclassing options. For one, classes only being able to reach a set A rank already discourages units from certain classes. Lets take the Mercenaries for example. They can only reach A Rank swords if they go Hero, while Bow Knight starts them at fricking E. This is terrible because Fates also has really low weapon level growth AND gives you buffs based on your weapon level. If that wasnt enough, reclassing options rarely have the same weapon type as your main class, and even if, its just your secondary weapon. I like having the ability to homebrew my classes a bit, like having a Hero that prefers Axes over Swords. However, 3h also discourages you from doing this as the classes in 3h all have a set faire skill for usually only one weapon type, making the other often feel obsolete.
I think fates would benefit if characters could reclass into classes that use the same weapon as their primary class, iirc Beruka can reclass to fighter which means she can pick up Axefaire without having to becone a unit with a terrible weapon rank. But at the same time, she out of everyone is already in the best class tree in the game. I think a similar system to fates could be nice, giving units a class set based on classes that fit their main weapon. For example, almost all classes that Lissa can access in awakening can use Staves. Lissa feels like Lissa, no matter if shes a Valkyrie, a Sage or a Falcoknight, because she still does her thing.
That is my personal favorite apprach to reclassing.
4:42 if you're just playing casually, you're not even gonna know that she has Vengeance, and you won't bother increasing her Lance rank because why would i care about her Lance rank...
i'm saying this from experience.
actually, i did *eventually* hear about it during my first playthrough and raised her Lance rank to get it.
... i'm not sure if i ever used it? Hard Mode Three Houses enemies are not strong enough to make me care for a skill that requires hurting myself in order to do anything.
Beyond the things you're already talking about, I think class bases and class growths being as significant to units' stats as they are is a major problem in games with reclassing. Having class bases and growths that are used as the bases and growths for enemy generics, plus personal bases and growths that edit them, works fine in games without reclassing, but reclassing can warp that.
DS Shadow Dragon is, as I understand, the most egregious on this count, and hence also the clearest example. You get ridiculous nonsense like how Navarre has 0 personal base speed and 25 personal speed growth as a fast sword unit because his high numbers come from myrmidon, and Draug having 0 personal Def and 0 personal Def growth, with the entirety of his tankiness coming from armor knight. And of course, class bases and growths, with personal stats being treated as additions to them, are also why Wolf and Sedgar are such insane units -- in much the same way you describe Kagetsu. (I haven't played Engage as of yet.)
I think units would feel a lot more different if class growths changed things by closer to 10 or maybe 15%, rather than 25, 30, or more. Really, plugging the generic growths for a class into a reclass system and using them as straight modifiers without any adjustment at all is kind of insane. As for class bases, I'd prefer if they outright didn't affect reclassing at all. That change alone would massively alter unit feel between units, I think. Just make personal stats matter more than class stats. It wouldn't solve everything, not by a long shot, but it would be a pretty big help, I think.
Honestly, I'd prefer no reclassing, maybe get some branching promotions in there a la Sacred Stones (just balanced better), but limiting it and making the unit's own personal traits matter more would be a substantial improvement over the current reclassing systems. Who knows, they might even convince me that reclassing wasn't a mistake to include in the first place if they implement it well enough.
Someone should make a mod for engage that removes class growths and everyone gets the personal growths that they have in their base class. this change should fix reclassing right
I'm a firm believer that reclassing should exist but be limited to 3-4 options per character (one of those options is the base class the character comes with).
Reclassing helps a lot with experimentation and a variety of team comps, but when anyone can be anything - it just kills the concept for me.
I feel fates did it in a good way imo, since to access to other classes there are limiations like partner seals, friendship seals and heart seals.
so to get there you gotta invest a lot to get into the classes you want, for example let's say you want berserker camilla or you want to grab axefaire, you have various ways of getting there but it's not free at all, it will require you to use other units you probably won't use anyway but you will have to deploy them to get supports to get an A+ with beruka for example or marry someone who can give you fighter as a partner seal (which will make said partner married and no one else will have access to it's classes and pair up bonuses)
Other people have said it but Sacred Stones' branched promotions, and Path of Radiance's weapon choice on promotion could potentially be the best system. Awakening's was fun too, but the level reset really brings it down. I actually really dislike how Fates treats reclassing, having to plan out who you wanna pair with who, friendship and marriagewise in order to make the most powerful unit doesn't feel fun for me. A lot of people plan out their pairings even before starting the game, and there are times when it can feel like the game is punishing you if you reclass without a plan. In Conquest specifically, there were times that I felt like I was 'playing wrong' for not reclassing much. As someone who likes to pair up units together mainly for their dynamics and relationships, abandoning that aspect just because it's better to turn someone into a master ninja doesn't appeal to me at all. I don't have many thoughts on Engage's reclassing, mainly because all the playthroughs I've done have been minimal/no-reclassing, and I did end up falling in love with units like Alcryst and Timerra for their feel, and if I had to let those fun units go just because it's not 'optimal' when compared to a full warrior or full wyvern team, I think the game would be less fun for me. This video really got me thinking lol, there have been several times when I feel like I'm 'bad' at fire emblem because I'm not good at reclassing. Thank you for making it!
Honestly, I know I might sound strange but I like to keep units as their canon classes, Because it didn't feel like they were them when i changed them to another class.
I rarely change units out of their canon class. For games like FE-3H i stuck to what they appeared as an enemy, E.g. Ingrid going to Peagus Knight then Falcon knight.
To some it seems like a bit of challenege, but thats the way I've always played Fire Emblem games. So I rarely ever use second seals, sticking to what the units are.
There's something about Engage's class system that absolutely bores me to death. And I think the crux of it is that Engage has nothing to make classes stand out from one another outside of what stats they give you so you end up giving everyone the class that gives the best stats which in my experience means everyone ends up as either a Warrior, Wyvern, Great Knight, or Mage Knight. And it really wouldn't have been so hard to make the classes feel more distinct. All they would have had to do was make each class's Lv. 5 class skill be more impactful and not so anemic so that you have a reason to at least look at other classes outside the raw stats they give.
I didn't have that issue cause I kept the royals on there unique classes
Here are my builds I used and some others for my game
Alear Divine Dragon Emblem one of the Hero's rings with Fire on Wille Glanze +5
Skills
Quick Riposte + or Charm
Mag/Res +5 or Adaptability +
Stats
Hp: 68
Bld: 13
Str: 42
Mag: 25
Dex: 37
Spd: 44
Def: 35
Res: 25
Lck: 35
Wille Glanze +5
Mt 16 Hit 100 Crit 20
Wt 9 Avo 20 Ddg 20
Alfred Avenir Emblem Roy with Binding on Brave Lance +5
Skills
Heavy Attack
Break Defenses or Lunar/Solar/Eclipse Brace +
Hp: 71
Bld: 16
Str: 47
Mag: 19
Dex: 34
Spd: 35
Def: 39
Res: 19
Lck: 44
Brave lance+ 5
Mt 12 Hit 85 Crit 0
Wt 22 Avo -30 Ddg 0
Celine Vidame Emblem Marth Beginnings on Excalibur or Levin sword +5
Skills
Divine Pulse
Staff Mastery 5
Hp: 56
Bld: 11
Str: 36
Mag: 39
Dex: 27
Spd: 42
Def: 24
Res: 36
Lck: 53
Excalibur +5
Mt 16 Hit 100 Crit 15
Wt 9 Avo 5 Ddg 5
Diamont Successeur Emblem Ike with skills Heavy Attack Dual Assist Radiance on Georgios
Skills
Heavy Attack
Dual Assist +
Hp: 77
Bld: 20
Str: 45
Mag: 22
Dex: 22
Spd: 38
Def: 40
Res: 19
Lck: 25
Georgios +5
Mt 40 hit 100 Crit 10
Wt 33 Avo 0 Ddg 0
Alcryst Tireur d'élite Emblem Lyn Blazeing on Lendabair +5
Skills
Surprise Attack
Str/Dex +5
Hp: 68
Bld: 15
Str: 42 (+5) 47
Mag: 19
Dex: 44 (+5) 49
Spd: 40
Def: 30
Res: 17
Lck: 29
Lendabair +5
Mt 18 Hit 130 Crit 30
Wt 9 Avo 0 Ddg 0
Ivy Lindwurm Emblem Celica Echoes on Bolganone +5
Skills
Mag/Dex +5
Spd/Dex +5
Hp: 60
Bld: 15
Str: 31
Mag: 42 (+5) 47
Dex: 23 (+10) 33
Spd: 34 (+5) 39
Def: 33
Res: 42
Lck: 17
Bolganone +5
Mt 20 Hit 95 Crit 0
Wt 10 Avo 0 Ddg 50
Hortensia Sleipnir Rider Emblem Micaiah Dawn on Elthunder
Skills
Lifesphere ++ or Mag/Dex +5 or Spd/Dex + 5
Divine Pulse +
Hp: 47
Bld: 11
Str: 24
Mag: 39
Dex: 36
Spd: 46
Def:16
Res:54
Lck: 55
Elthunder +5
Mt 13 Hit 85 Crit
Wt 10 Avo 40 Ddg 20
Timerra Picket Emblem Lief with skills Heavy Attack Dual Assist Genealogy on Venomous
Skills Heavy Attack
Dual Assist
Hp: 63
Bld: 12
Str: 34
Mag: 26
Dex: 50
Spd: 41
Def: 35
Res: 23
Lck: 38
Venomuos +5
Mt 40 Hit 110 Crit 20
Wt 21 Avo 10 Ddg 0
Fogado Cupido Emblem Eirika Sacred on Brave Bow +5
Skills
Surprise Attack
Bow Agility 5
Hp: 67
Bld: 16
Str: 34
Mag: 27
Dex: 33
Spd: 52
Def: 27
Res: 32
Lck: 33
Brave bow +5
Mt 9 Hit 125 Crit 20
Wt 11 Avo -20 Ddg -20
Veyle Fell Child Emblem Corrin Fates on Obscurité +5
Skills
Keen Insight + or Lunar/Solar/Eclipse Brace +
Tome Precision 5
Hp: 48
Bld: 11
Str: 35
Mag: 51
Dex: 36
Spd: 32
Def: 25
Res: 44
Lck: 28
Obscurité + 5
Mt 17 Hit 90 Crit 40
Wt 12 Avo 10 Ddg 30
Nel Fell Child Emblem Sigurd Holy on Fell Ruinston or Représailles
Skills
Lance Agility 5
Axe Guard 5
Or
Lunar/Solar/Eclipse Brace +
something else
Hp: 65
Bld: 13
Str: 39
Mag: 30
Dex: 32
Spd: 45
Def: 33
Res:31
Lck: 37
Représailles +5 + Holy
Mt 21 Hit 95 Crit 0
Wt 5 Avo 20 Ddg 0
Fell Ruinstone + Holy
Mt 6 Hit 80 Crit 0
Wt 12 Avo 20 Ddg 0
Rafal Fell Child Emblem Edelgard, Dimitri and Claude Rivals on Fell Ruinstone or Revanche
Skills
Sword Guard 5
Axe Power 5
Or
Lunar/Solar/Eclipse Brace +
Something else
Hp: 76
Bld: 13
Str: 46
Mag: 13
Dex: 30
Spd: 33
Def: 42
Res: 20
Lck: 19
Revanche +5 + Rivals
Mt 25 Hit 80 Crit 45
Wt 11 Avo 20 Ddg 20
Fell Ruinstone + Rivals
Mt 7 Hit 90 Crit 10
Wt 13 Avo 20 Ddg 20
Seadal Dancer Emblem Lucina Awakening on Flashing Fist art +5
Skills
Quality Time
LifeSphere ++ or Lunar/Solar/Eclipse Brace +
Hp: 64
Bld: 15
Str: 36
Mag: 29
Dex: 28
Spd: 45
Def: 24
Res: 26
Lck: 41
Gregory Sage Emblem Byleth Academy on Nova
Skills
Tome Precision 5
Staff Mastery 5
Hp: 43
Bld: 11
Str: 24
Mag: 51
Dex: 32
Spd: 28
Def: 20
Res: 47
Lck: 32
Nova +5
Mt 10 Hit 115 Crit 20
Wt 16 Avo 10 Ddg 30
What do you think Iced Coffee Gaming? as my Builds for Royals
I used my stat boosters on my Seadall by the way
Still working on other 4 for the Bracelets but here are my builds for Clanne and Framme
Clanne Emblem Tiki
Mage Cannoneer
Lunar/Solar/Eclipse Brace +
Dont know yet
Hp: 73
Bld: 18
Str: 46
Mag: 22
Dex: 45
Spd: 25
Def: 47
Res: 23
Lck: 31
Framme Emblem Soren
Enchanter
Lunar/Solar/Eclipse Brace +
Draconic Hex
Hp:53
Bld: 11
Str: 25
Mag: 26
Dex 42
Spd: 41
Def: 19
Res: 21
Lck: 43
Either
Flashing fist art +5 Acumen
Mt: 16 Hit: 90 Crit: 0
Wt: 9 Avo: -10 Ddg: -20
Silver Dagger +5 Acumen
Mt: 21 Hit: 100 Crit: 0
Wt: 5 Avo: -10 Ddg: -20
Honestly, I feel like Fates was the perfect balance between unit regidity and unit fluidity, seeing as units start with a base class and a default alternate class, but can then add more classes through their supports. The only thing I would change would be to fold the Heart Seal, Partner Seal and Friend Seal into one item so that you don't have to juggle multiple different items just to get the same unit into a new class that's added to their kit, or potentially fight tooth and nail to complete a side objective only to be rewarded with the wrong kind of Seal
In engage you don't even have to invest in weapon level too much as everyone gets a set level for their class and getting proficency is not really that hard with the emblems, or at least when you get leif
Didn't expect to run into Alfred/Timerra slander here, guess i should know better by now...
I'm not particularly a fan of reclassing in Engage. From what i've been able to gather from my experience with the game, many units (especially early game) tend to be tuned toward functioning in the classes they directly Master Seal to. Which is why it seems silly to me to, say, reclass Etie to Warrior and then say she's a worse Panette; well Etie isn't _meant_ to be a Warrior so...
Or to kinda state it in a different way: no unit is designed in such a way that they can't be made to work in at least one of their default advanced classes, and reclassing a unit outside of their default class path is not a good way to "fix" a unit in most cases (it's more of an exception than the rule).
IMO just use Awakening's class system but remove the level resetting and you've got the ideal system.
Units keep a sense of identity by having limited options but you still have space to experiment and play your way.
I feel like the multiple custom class choice is the best because, for example, anna can be a warrior and use radiant bow, (i wouldnt use the axe tho) but her magic gets capped instantly and her strength is shit, but if her custom class had a higher magic/speed cap this would fix it and would have made her playable in the xenologues
Personally, I think if a character has a reclass, they only get 1 or 2 at the start, and you could potentially unlock more reclass through various means (like supports), but still restrict it so they have maybe a max of 4. (Assuming the game has enough classes to warrant it.)
I agree with the premise. Locking characters into classes adds so much personality and adds limitation that makes puzzling out the game more interesting and the characters more memorable
I must admit. I'm very conflicted. When i played shadow dragon as a kid i balked at it. As a kid, i remember playing final fantasy x and drgaon quest 8. And i loved how dq8 has these very unique characters. Whereas ffx technically lets you make any character anything by the end, which just always felt kind of crappy to me. So ive always lowkey disliked reclassing. Ive come around a bit because it can be fun. But it certainly can cause issues. Perhaps the largest being that, in games like engage, there just are classes that are better. So if you want everyone to be in their "best class" most of your units will be in the same handful of classes. I think this is made worse by there being so many units that are just ass in their base class. Like, am i really supposed to want to keep anna in fighter/warrior? Youd be an idiot if you didnt at least moonlight her in magic class (assuming youre trying to be optimal).
I also cant help but wonder like where do you draw the line. You complain about fates and i complain about ffx, but realistically, in both games, it takes a lot of work to get your characters completely off track and into random stuff. No ones first fates run sees them doing an intricate web of marriages to get everyone to be wyverns or something. So reclassing being possible but generally a bit annoying seems like a decent compromise.
While i do have a tendency to, at times, view units as numbers, ive certainly used several units in engage because i think they're cool or likable. So i think making compelling characters that you want on your team can legit be a part of that balance. I do despise the terrible unique skills in engage though. If your unique skill is so bad that its useless then it might as well not exist which neuters your identity altogether.
I just dont second seal because i dont like how they ruin a modern character's design when promoting.
They loose that look of "them" if it makes sense, even in engage the vast array of "Lord" units are spoiled with special promotions that carry over their outfits, meanwhile lower units like Etie dont even get custom designs when promoted to their corresponding class :(
I do prefer reclassing It would be cool if theres like a mechanic that the base class cannot be reclassed into, then the advanced or tier 2 you can reclass in whatever you feel like with second seals, and then a tier 3 class branching promoting appear where you decide between 2 master classes and you cannot second seal into another tier 3 to make those classes feel like a specialization. Aside from this classes discussions I'd say I'm not to fond with the skill system in engage, I sorta like the mechanic of inherit skills and manage your bond fragments but I also bothered by the fact that a good portion of the advance class skills are virtually useless and also the fact that it is mandatory to wield an emblem ring (granted you end up with 12 slots and 12 rings without dlc at the endgame but still, it would be cool if there were much more S rank rings with skills like dire thunder, around and units capable of inherit 3 skills at least + personal because outside class skills like pincer attack, brave attack or no distractions, the rest of them are either busted because is a special class personal like luna or sandstorm, or its useless like healing diffuse)
It's giving shadow dragon replacement units
Yeah reclassing is fun but it has realyl warped game and unit balance
I think part of the reason class changing is such a big deal in Fire Emblem is that raw stats tend to matter a lot more than the other unique features of a class. Other than flier utility and wanting high move, there's little reason to pick any class that doesn't optimize your stats. Even in Engage, nobody is really class changing because they want to have covert or backup or a class skill, because raw stats just matter more overall. Free class changing like the 3H or Engage systems could work if there were better incentives to take weaker classes, and/or if the overall numbers in the game were lowered so being subpar in stats didn't matter as much.
I think the biggest problem especially with Engage is that while there are certainly plenty of unique mechanics FOR other classes to exploit, you just... don't have to use them because would you look at that, reclassing makes ANOTHER mechanic broken.
Like, chain attacks in a vacuum are annoying but mostly because they come ALONGSIDE other big sources of damage that make tactics risky. But then for player units they're player phase exclusive... alongside Engage attacks and the general ability to dogpile (which is a requirement for Chains anyway)
On enemy phase, both face and dodge tanking are actively discouraged on Maddening because the AI is smart and won't go for attacks that deal 0 expected damage (either because the target's bulk is too high or the hit rate too low)
But you know what essentially nullifies both of these things? Bonded Shield.
Bonded Shield makes flier ball enemy phase juggernauting meta AGAIN (for, like, the third or fourth time) because a fast enough flier getting Bonded Shield is literally flat-out invincible, except against Chain attacks... except Chain attacks require the backup unit in question to actually, y'know, live. Which you can make them stop doing by dealing enough damage, obviously.
This coupled with the fact Griffin has the best Spd in the game (it beats out Swordmaster, for some godforsaken reason) and Wyvern the best Str growth (and IIRC the third or fourth best Str base) means that you just... don't have an incentive to not run it unless you are specifically attempting to challenge yourself not to.
The only reason it is maybe not entirely meta is because the best magic combat class happens to be a cav (that being Mage Knight) but a few units have enough of a Mag base that it genuinely doesn't matter anyway (especially when basically all of them get freaking B staves in Griffin which happens to be Warp rank)
You might want ONE Covert for some minor support or boss-pull duties, but Armors are actively shit, the Qi Adept classes have wack stats and/or awkward ranks, (and are mostly support units in a way literally covered entirely by an Emblem) and the only backups maybe worth choosing are generally Warrior (because it's the best physical combat class by miles) and Hero, with MAYBE one Halberdier (except lmao no because Spd fixing is too goddamn easy)
Like, with 3 Houses at least you had to work for certain classes and some units had actively annoying banes to work around (anyone with an auth bane, a few units having flier or cav banes)
In Engage, it's merely bond level, and low bond levels at that (especially Leif lmao, half his early bond levels are literally just proficiencies)
I totally agree.
Three Houses made this issue a huge deal for me by virtue of starting almost every unit you get in the same basic “student” class. Obviously they had different stat distribution, but just the fact that everyone was a blank slate made it feel overwhelming for me to choose who to promote into what.
Engage is a little better in this regard because at least every unit starts in a specific class, so it feels like there’s less pressure to experiment if I didn’t want to.
In older games units of the same class usually felt different and filled different roles.
I don’t like how versatile sone characters can be due to their growths and how it makes other that could fill a niche obsolete.
I fell like 1 alt. class per unit or branching promotions and you can swap between them.
Yeah definitely an issue I felt while playing especially engage and three houses. Will say a couple of things on fates tho:
Fates gets a reputation for wyvern spam and while on the hard and normal on conquest this is probably valid, this doesn’t really apply to lunatic where tight designed maps reward the niches of certain classes. However it is true that wyevern and malig are a bit too strong and their wide distribution makes it so that a chunk of your army will usually be or go through those classes.
Therefore fates’s problems stem from how they distributed the classes themselves (it would be cool if more norian characters got exclusive access to hoshidan classes to emphasize a niche and vice versa). Ex. no Nohrians natively gets classes like diviner, oni savage, or apothecary. Overall still think this was the best system but there’s a few things that I wish were tweaked.
Fates was peak and it’s only been downhill since
Bringing back the limiters FE11 and FE12 would be a great start. At least not everyone can be a wyvern rider that way.
On the topic of Engage though, kind of a shame that it's mostly the royals (minus Alfred, I love you but I'm sorry your classes are bland) that get to feel truly unique. I didn't do any reclassing outside of Anna on my first playthrough and honestly that was pretty great. Got a real feel for most of the cast that way.
I feel like engage got it right. Tie it into a core gameplay mechanic that needs to be grinded a little to achieve and only allows you to do what you were specifically going for while also being limited in some aspects.
Sure, you could use the first emblem to give everyone sword prof and make everyone a sword unit and that would really suck... But if i just want to change a few units to other things (like anna into a mage or alear into a wolf knight) i can. Id have to grind a bit and it wouldnt always be available since your ring rotation is changing. DLC kinda breaks these though since you get a lot of prof out of those
It feels like excessive options for reclassing pushes the game away from the FE style srpg and into the FFT/tactics ogre style instead. Personally I like FE8 the best. Branching promotion paths, but locked into your original class feels like the right balance. There's also the trainees with two promotes which also felt good and I wouldn't mind every unit working like that.
I think broader reclassing as an option like you mentioned, or as a NG+ feature could be an interesting way to handle it. Personally, I generally don't reclass at all on my first time through (exceptions for things like Villager, obviously), or in the case of Three Houses, I had characters follow their obviously intended trajectory (Hubert as a mage, Ferdinand as a Paladin, etc.), but I've had a lot of fun branching out more on subsequent playthroughs. In my most recent 3H playthrough, I've been doing things like using Edelgard as a mage because of her Reason budding talent, or making Hubert a Wyvern Lord because he dreamed of being a Pegasus Knight as a kid, and that's the closest I could get. It adds a nice level of customization on replays, but it does kind of strip units of their identity in a way that's disappointing.
One of my main issue with reclassing in Engage, and most modern FE is that it allows for potentially infinite leveling (slightly harder on higher difficulty). And in 3H, it's irrelevant since you'll never reach the Level Cap anyway..
My ideal system would be the FE11 system, mixed with the Fates/Awakening ones when you only have 2-3 unique options (3 only if you have two class promotions that branch together like Knight and Cav to Great Knight, for example).
You can have a Villager Type with more (maybe not all though) reclassing options, so this they can actually be more unique that simple Growth Units.
This way there's actually no way to just make almost everyone into the same broken class (Wyvern Spam in 3H quickly became mechanical, almost a chore).
You can still add a rarer Reverse Emblem that allows Promoted Classes to go back to their unpromoted Class, but at least separating the two would help.
I don't get the 3H boons and banes and whatever making the characters unique since you still can easily make every character in your army the same class. You'll have 1 or 2 that might take some extra work but it's not significant enough to stop you from just doing it anyway especially since there's no cost for making certain classes like in FE11/12
when 3h came out i couldnt believe the reclassing system. felt like a kid being handed a whole bag of candy, having fun devouring the deliciousness and playing around with the flexible system but then feeling sick after, when on later playthrough the magic is lost when near any unit can fulfil the role you want and feels the same to any other character in the same class
One thing i appreciate about the reclassing in 3 houses and engage (as well as technically Shadows of Valentia) is that units retained their color palette when reclassing. Celine, for example, gets golden armor if she reclasses into something like General.
While this can help unit identity, however, i dont think its enough.
I think that a fates/awakening system combined with engage's internal level system, to prevent the grindfest that awakening can be, would be amazing. Just give us a way to easily tell a unit's internal level.
One of my favorite things is seeing what everyone looks like in general, even though it's a bad class I love all the different colors of the armor
Am not personally a fan of these wild reclassings myself. It's just weird to me, because then what is the point of having a set base class for each unit anyways. My Amber comes in as a Cav, he stays in that class line, I ain't changing it just because other classes may help me with his stat growths. Also, he is on a horse because it's the closest thing to an alpaca which is Amber's whole thing, hell no was I going to get rid of that horse of his.
Yeah I would agree. Fates/Awakening has my favorite system in terms of reclassing. When I played Fates, I specifically didn't look up any guides on what was optimal and my party felt really unique because I made it myself. I felt the same way on my first run of 3H but repeat playthroughs definitely lessened that impression. I would like for the next new game to not be so open ended.
I honestly believe that reclassing in general has almost completely eliminated the inherent uniqueness of playable characters and their identity that was tied to gameplay. As you said, personal skills are almost a placebo: most are below mediocre if not downright useless.
Kaneda, Tellius' director, put it best: ''The charm of characters that appear in Fire Emblem is that each and every one of them is ''alive''. Not just their appearance or personalities, but their class, individual parameters and dialogue... it all comes together to create individuality. So we take special care to make ''the unit fit the character''.
This entire statement is exactly why many feel like awakening, fates, 3H and EGG characters are many times... just lacking in identity. Class and stats are both fibers of the same rope that holds Fire Emblem together, and I honestly believe that reclassing, specially reclassing as degenerate and decadent as 3H and EGG have not only hurts those games' gameplay, but also their characters' identity and uniqueness.
And all those issues created by reclassing are compounded by readily available grinding.
When I played 3H, it was so painfully obvious how utterly inferior were anyone older than 30 to any of the students, and how painfully inferior were many of the students between themselves, and how uniqueness was completely trashed in favor of a ''build your overpowered army of waifus'' gameplay.
I think 3H did a great job at making everyone still feel very unique despite the freedom of the classing system it has in place. Everyone having their unique spell list and combat art list means that even you if you put 2 units in the same class they'll be able to do things differently from one another.
Having very few locks on weapons also added to this rather than making it homogenized. Wyvern Leonie can use a bow to point blank volley or use a melee weapon with battalion desperation.
All in all 3H's systems are very thought-out in my opinion. You have both the fun of options while keeping a great amount of uniqueness to everyone.
@@g.n.s.153 Reclassing in 3H was just as bad, just for another reasons other than identity. Wyvern knight spam breaking the game is the biggest one.
Also 3H has very unbalanced gendered classes which only make the problem worse. Unique spell lists doesnt matter if its just a way to make intentionally bad or broken units, specially when it doesnt make sense at all, like Haneman vs Lysithea for example.
@@torashiki5646 Wyvern spam isn't nearly as good as people think/say it is. Limited battalions, attack adjutants only and no magic access. Wyvern Rider doesn't have a combat art like other advanced classes which can patch up a unit that's lacking in combat power. Your stats are gonna be fine to a degree but that's applicable to any Advanced/Master classes.
I like the gendered classes even if I would have preferred them to be more balanced. It's a great layer to make units inherently different. The game heavily favors women when it comes to magic but you do get things like Bernadetta or Leonie who end up as very good mages despite their low magic stat because their spell list is great.
I don't really get why some units being better than others is a big deal? This has been a thing in every single Fire Emblem game.
I'm fairly new to the FE fandom outside of casually enjoying the GBA games as a kid, but I don't think this is the case at all. I don't remember Lynn for her skills, I remember her for the story she had. I don't remember Dimitri because he had badass polearm attacks, but for his personality and what he went through. The stories that come from these games are what stick with me, the combats and gameplay is fun and addicting, but I'm not going to remember units soley on their class, it's their personality and the story, who they are that I'll remember.
@@saltyralts None of that is negated by being able to change classes though, which is what I'm talking about. The claim is effectively that the class is core to each character, that by being able to change freely you're stripping each character of their uniqueness. If they have no other character to them anyway, then I don't care who my tank is, as long as they're a good tank. Like you mentioned with earlier games, there wasn't as much dialogue, sometimes only a couple lines per character. Effectively, they're no more than their stats and class, numbers to run for optimal play, and it would arguably be even better to be able to reclass more freely in those games. There's no reason you can't have overrides for some characters, letting a specific character wield their family sword regardless of their class, and there are still a ton of unique classes and other classes that are clearly optimal for some characters; these still keep the characters unique mechanically too.
I say this as someone who’s only played FE starting with Awakening, but I think the problem is that FE so far hasn’t been great with making units feel unique without restrictions.
I think the thing with Reclassing is that it makes every unit more usable when every unit has full reclass access because if their base class sucks, they can fix it, just take a look at Lapis discussion.
Though personally to me, I think unit uniqueness is a lot more than just what class a unit is stuck in. There are some units in FE that are stuck in their classes that kind of just aren’t good or unique because of it, SoV celica’s side has a ton of Mercs and Mages, and the later ones you get are usually just worse than the earlier ones with little nuance, and reclassing wouldn’t fix that, but imo it highlights that the issue is partly class balancing.
Because classes in FE usually are not balanced, and some of them are clearly better, units gravitate towards the better ones. But in games without balanced classes, but restricted or no reclassing, a unit with good stats cannot just also go into in the best class for what they want to do.
Engage has Pandreo, the only high priest you get normally, who would rather be any other magic class, or even a griffin knight than high priest.
I think though there are tons of ways they could make reclassing still an option, while keeping units unique.
One way is just make Personal skills all more impactful, maybe even like FE4 where characters start with whole skill lists (I think, I haven’t played FE4.)
They could have stuff like “this unit gains avoid =Def+Res” for a funny dodgy general, or vantage wrath, or a unit with a built in stride rally, or rally spectrum, warp but like how SoV witches do it, automatic nosferatu lifesteal with every tome. A unit that treats every weapon like its brave, a unit with FE3H vengeance as an effect on all of their attacks. Maybe even personal skills that allow units to always be able to use certain weapon types, so that you could have a unit that always can use staffs or tomes or bows no matter what class they are.
It might be hard to balance every unit, and maybe my examples were over tuned but personal skills Imo should actually matter,
Alternatively they could have it so more units have personal weapons.
Ryoma in fates is a good example, he really want to stay in a sword capable class because Raijinto is so good, even if Falcon knight or Kinshi knight might be better classes than swordmaster. This locks him out of the flying classes.
They’d have to be good personal weapons sure, but I think if Pandreo had a personal 2 range brave art scroll that did Magic damage, a lot more people would keep him in high priest.
Or if Lapis had a sword that was brave on both phases and not super heavy, she’d stand out compared to Kagetsu even if both reclass to Wyvern. (Although Kagetsu would still be better because his personal sword would be the Viskam.)
They could’ve had lapis’s personal skill be that she doesn’t have drawbacks for using smash weapons, and it would’ve made her more interesting as a unit, fit with the tidbit that she’s supposedly super strong, and strengthened her as the smash weapon tutorial unit. And then people would do meme huricane axe builds with her.
Saw a couple similar comments but I wanted to add to the 'Fates reclass system good' wagon.
It really added a layer of strategy and complexity that appeals to the gameplay focused fans as well as the fun of pairing units thst romance sim based players vibe with.
Thinking about who to romance, and also who to A+, really appeals to me, especially in the non-Rev routes where you get limited access to the enemy classes and gives characters who do give that access a real boost (Silas and Mozu for example).
I also really hate gender locking as a rule because it's such a lazy way to differentiate classes. That's another thing Fates did well.
One thing which I think adds to the problem of reclassing in the newer games is that the classes themselves have such a large impact on both the unit's growths and bases, especially in 3H and Engage. You can take e.g. Panette, a berserker with a dogshit defense base and mediocre growth, turn her into a General / Great Knight, and she will perform better than 2 of the 3 armored units you get (Jade and Bunet). She will even have one major advantage over Louis, which is having higher skill and therefore better hitrate (though ironically, a major disadvantage as well, because of a personalized thing: no innate sword/axe/lance proficiency means that she cannot wield silver greatweapons as a GK, which means you'd have to decide between more mobility or more power instead of having both). All of this because she gets like 10 points of defense (or more, I forget) and a defense growth on par with Jade and Bunet.
In 3H I think this is even worse, because the character's personal base stats will be upgraded to the class' base stats if they're lower in a particular stat. Which means you could take someone like Lysithea, canonically a deathly ill child with some of the lowest strength and defense in the game, and turn her into a fortress knight for like 30 defense and 20 strength at level 20. Which would not last really, but is functional for at least some time, when it shouldn't be at all.
Of course, these are extreme examples here. But this is a big reason why characters in the same class feel so same-y. So making the characters strengths and weaknesses more dependent on personal stats will bring more restrictions that in turn should make the characters feel more distinct in their role, like General Amelia who is more likely to fulfil the role of a bad myrmidon rather than an armored unit - or maybe less extreme, like Kyle (strong and bulky, but slow) vs. Forde (fast and accurate, but a bit weak).
hard agree that awakening has the best reclass! when i first went to the gba games, i just really enjoyed *not* reclassing, cuz i hated it in three houses. so much planning: what skills do classes give? what do i need? what are the chatacter's affinities? how do these all synergize? putting down the game and trying to remember what you wanted to class someone to is horrible.
also the game doesnt even tell you which skills you get for maxing a class. why is *three hopes* the only game that does this.
meanwhile in older games it's yeah this is sain his strength growth is cracked and he is a cavalier. have fun with that!
branched promotions are great, though, so i'm glad sacred stones introduced them. they add more variety for replays. awakening's system of every unit having a unique class set is the best of both worlds here. rigid enough to not be overwhelming, flexible enough to not be repetitive.
I think reclassing also takes away from a narrative standpoint, an example being that Volke’s character is greatly impacted by the fact that he’s an assassin and it would take away from his story if you just make him a priest. Another example being Rhys who in his support with Mia says that he would make a terrible swordsman so I would make no sense to turn him into a myrmidon.
Imo, I think the most balanced system was Fate's method, but maybe limit the number of the bond seals (or whatever they were called) just a little bit more. Forgoing that, SoV, but FFS, don't make it DLC only. I don't even like the fact that there's DLC limited classes in the first place, and I bought the DLC before I knew that was even a thing
At least if you prefer Restricted Classes you could come up with a ruleset based on the characters in every game, granted this is self-imposed and will make the game harder but at least it gives those players freedom that want the freedom. I have more issues with the skill imbalance of FE3H than the classes themselves. It would be interesting to play the game with a system surrounding that than just a self-imposed challenge. Any modders out there get on it :)
Reclassing is one of the key reasons I haven't played a new FE game since Awakening. I hated it there (partly because of how generic it made every unit look) and as each new FE game releases and has more and bigger reclass systems that are more and more central to gameplay progression I lose interest every time.
I like the aspect of balance between building a competent army while working within the characters classes. I like unit X and they're class Y, and I pick a few of those and then fill out the rest of the main army around that. Not just "alright, pick 10 characters and make them whatever unit class I need." That's a lot less interesting to me.
I like when classes feel like a part of the characters identity and not just something that can be thrown away at any given moment. That makes them feel a lot more like actual people and not just tools of the player, IMO.
FE8 was perfect for me. You get a branch promo for a little bit of variance between roles or on multiple playthroughs, but it still feels like characters fit their classes and still require some working and building around to make a good team.
@@saltyralts The fact that the branches don't radically change the unit's performance is plus for me. I like that a unit still has an identity and a distinct role that they fit into.
And sure, there's a meta pick for most promotions. I won't say there isn't, but I don't really care personally. I don't play for maximum efficiency or LTC or anything like that. I'm just playing for fun and making Tana a Falcoknight or Gerik a Ranger is a fun change of pace and a small bit of customization you can get without going completely off into full reclassing where it just doesn't feel like a unit has a designated role.
Plus having meta best choice applies just as much if not more so to full reclass systems, no? Wyvern Emblem memes exist for a reason. I'd rather each class have a meta "best pick" for that class than all units having a best class.
Having to work towards your builds is so much more fun to me. In Fates it's a big deal that Selena can become a wyvern because it's hard limited + her loadout and availability makes her especially viable for it over someone like Charlotte-- And the prospect of grinding a friendship seal is inconvenient and many times unnecessary unless you do it for your own curiosity. In the new games Wyvern is basically handed to you on a silver platter and there's nothing special about it besides being overtuned sometimes
It genuinely turned me off of three houses that everyone can do everything. It constantly feels sub-optimal, like i might be screwing myself if i don't remember to lovingly ruffle Ashe's hair in Chapter thirteen BEFORE THE BATTLE ONLY. Having endless reclassing also makes it nigh impossible for the devs to know enough about your unit types/power level to design more specific and satisfying challenges.
Personally that's not a sacrifice I think is worth it, and I much prefer the fates approach where, if you really wanted to make your character a weird specific class to play with a kooky build, you had to at least put some effort in with supports and different seals, so your options weren't technically endless