You should take into consideration that sometimes pins sit in a hole a bit flimsy and lean to one side or another. That may be crucial if you see pin leaning toward you and in fact closing the hole that you have to wiggle the pin so the ball would go in....
Ever since the rule change to allow leaving the pin in all the players in my group (5-12 hcps) have left the pin in. At first I thought it would be weird since I'd been pulling the pin for 40 years but I really like having it in for depth perception on long putts and targeting on the short ones. I have only had a few putts that have bounced off the pin that MIGHT have gone in otherwise, but I know for sure I've had many, that were hit way too hard, that went in and would've never had a chance without it. One caveat - if I'm playing with someone who likes it out, I'm not having them replace it for me because that defeats the intention of the rule, which is to speed up play.
I think an interesting follow up would be looking at putts that are going into a hole at an angle (i.e. not a straight putt). I’ve been playing with the pin in since the original study, but that’s the only time I feel like I get burned. When I hit a putt that goes top center of the hole, it hits the pin and bounces out when I feel like it would have gone in with the pin out.
Data Data Data - pin in from now on.. plus the added benefit of quicker play since the guys that ALWAYS miss their 3’ putts taking 5 min to line it up and then - MISSSSSS..
This is what I came to say. Perhaps it is that I am now 69 years old. I now leave the pin in on all my putts because of the increased sense of distance that it affords me.
Leave the pin in for most puts. Only take it out when the shadow is in the line, if wind is rattling the stick or if it's leaning due to uneven socket connection. Also, on longer putts, it offers a visual distance marker, equivalent to a co-player tending the flag but without the visual interference of same [the co-player].
I play on a inland-links golf course with a lot of wind most of the time. I’ll take it out for short puts that need to drop slow because the pin can bend and make the one side smaller so the ball doesn’t droo
People who say they leave the pin in all the time are crazy! I play almost every day. I am a single digit handicap 8. I play many different courses. When the pin is at a tilt, either because of a poor job of the hole being put in squarely or the flag stick bottom is a loose fit. I take the stick out. The reason is I lose the low side on putts when the stick leans that way, and too many bounce off the stick. Your test is correct when the flag is very straight and a good fit! Especially windy courses seem to have poorer fitting flags that cause them to lean because the hole in the bottom of the cup or the bottom portion of the flag wears out. You have perfect conditions and when I do I leave it in.
I've played a lot of solo golf in the 25 years before the rule change and always kept the pin in because it was a PITA taking it out every time. So I'm used to it and when the rule change happened I was happy. Pin in all the time..every time
Please with wind conditions next! Locally my pin is always tilted due to local wind. It closes the hole and makes things impossible on that side of the cup. Cheers! Love the videos.
Scoring happens through putting. This is an important topic and I am glad you addressed it. There are; however, two ancillary issues in putting that exist in real life on the course that are difficult to measure in a controlled environment. (1) Many holes are poorly cut and not perpendicular to the ground. This means the flagstick leans to one side. If the lean is severe enough, especially if the wind is blowing, it is possible to have one side of the hole that the ball is too wide to go down. (2) Golfers over 40 years old develop what my optometrist calls "drifty eye." The golfer "sees" the hole in the mind to the right of where it actually is. With a larger object in the peripheral vision (the flagstick), this tendency can become even more exaggerated. This is my problem and I do not think I am alone in this.
No, you are not alone. I have no clinical explanation, but I tended to miss right until I started using an alignment line on my ball. Now after I line up my ball and then standing over it, it looks like I will miss left, but I don't. I can be a little disconcerting, but I have to trust the alignment line on my ball.
I leave the pin in every putt and have done so since the rule change. The findings from this study confirms my experience on the course. Very good work MyGolfSpy!
I have been playing for 51yrs, I started leaving the pin in about 10yrs ago. It was never about the using the pin to help the putt, it was always about helping me see the hole while I was putting and also to speed up play.
If you're someone who is hitting putts hard enough to go 20 ft past the pin, you should probably take up hockey, sounds like you have a decent slap shot. What is not clear from this test is how far from the hole the ball starts. A ball that rolls 3ft past from 20ft away is not great but not that bad. A putt that rolls that far past from 6ft away is a much bigger issue. Seems to me that the vast majority of recreational golfers should focus on developing some touch and speed control on the green. Most of the misses I see at my club among higher handicaps are more a factor of bad speed than a bad read....the line is meaningless anyway if the speed used doesn't match the break you see. This whole "pin in, pin out" is an entertaining sidebar but not vey impactful IMO. For what it's worth, as a 4-hcap I tend to leave it in on long putts for depth perception reasons, and I take it out on shorter ones for two reasons 1 - I find it visually distracting and 2 - On short putts with break, I like to "firm" them in and take some of the break out, and I feel like I've had the pin (we use the firm tapered ones) keep it out more than it has helped it go in.
Agreed Anthony. The speed at which the ball hits the pin is everything. To show a dramatic difference, a 1' putt stroked to roll 9' past the hole is going to hit the pin a lot harder (faster) than a 20' putt stroked to roll 9' past the hole. Why are we analyzing putts that would go 6'+ past the hole. If you put like that, you've got more to work on than deciding pin in or out.
DeChambeau convinced me and you have confirmed it. I leave the pin in all the time. I play in a men’s league on Tuesday mornings and just about all of the players leave the pin in; although, there are a couple of holdouts who take it out. Thanks for taking the time to do the research to take away all lingering doubt.
I discovered this by accident, because we were forced to leave the pin in during the pandemic, on short putts, I started to actually hit the ball harder than I used to because I noticed, like a backboard the ball's energy was being absorbed by the pin and going straight down. It would appear that my putting has vastly improved but I'm just hitting it harder now and taking the break out. This video and what Dechambeau said now validates the suspicion I had .
Leave it in for every putt. It is like a backboard and helps, even though it is round. I figure if I drill it too fast it can't hurt and most likely slows it down!
I watch you use the tool that drops the ball that goes to the hole, and I would never hit any putt that hard towards a hole that it would hit the hole and jump out if the pole is not in the hole. So I think it is more your feel to the hole in the angle it goes in whether the pin is in or not. I always find also that longer puts I will use the PIN, but anything that is 15 ft or closer I pull the pin out because the hole looks bigger and it allows me to see the break better.
Golf digest had Dr. Tom Mase, a professor at Cal Poly run this test after leaving the pin in was made legal. He found that taking the pin out was more advantageous. He found on BREAKING putts that leaving the pin in resulted in more putts bouncing off the pin and missing! Did my golf spy test any breaking putts? It looked like a straight putt to me. Perhaps they should have tested this concept more thoroughly!
I do not believe this is possibly so-there would be an occasional exception but it would be far from the rule. The physics and common sense declare this is not true. OTOH, golf is rife with psychological components and here there is likely a developed personal bias of preference in this regard. My playing partners would define me as being an excellent putter-always have been...pin in or out. But my putting has improved since we have the option of leaving it in. The real advantage here comes with longer putts and the improvement in length and depth perception that comes with leaving the pin in. I don't believe there are any ways to accurately test the question under live playing conditions.
Very interesting, but if your hitting putts that are going more than 3 ft past the hole you need to work on your pace control. For any timid putters out there (myself included) pin in might help confidence to hit it slightly harder. might be a good idea to try it out (even if its just in practice to build confidence). I will never be the guy that's putting the flag back in before I hit a putt!!!
in 2018 when it was announced that we would soon be able to putt with the pin in, I did take an afternoon to test both options. It was clearly better to leave the flag in. I did look into the "science" of it, and there are two reasons. The first one, evidenced in this video: the flag absorbs a part of the energy, redirects it down, so you have more chances of holing out, AND if not, the miss will stay closer to the flag. The second one is cognitive science: flag in give you a "positive space target", that is something to aim at that "is there", flag out gives a negative space target, a missing thing, a hole, and the brain definitely handles the former better. You'll therefore have a "more accurate target", a "better perception of distance" AND the energy absorption effect. Why some still putt with the flag in is unfathomable to me... Sure it take a bit to get used to putting flag in, but that "bit" is like two days of practice, and the benefits are strong, in scoring AND pace of play. Make putting flag in mandatory already, R&A and USGA!!
Correct - If they think the flag is best left out - they would never chip with the flag in - 99% of golfers chip with the flag in, because they think it will help if they hit it...lol
I like what you're saying and agree with how the brain handles things and the perception of distance. But on a breaking putt, the hole is not your "target", a spot some distance down your intended line should be your "target".
Great video I leave the flag in on longer putts. It helps with my alignment and posture. Close up take the pin out and aim for the back of the hole. Recently I have hit the flag (taper flag) and the ball rebounds out and I am left wondering if the ball would have dropped due to the void or it hitting the back of the hole! Data is convincing but still not convinced!
funny response, but you've definitely hit on the real-world aspect here. It would be nice to see a collection of putts that don't go in with the pin in (i've seen them on TV plenty enough, but of course i don't have a link to them). Every one of those putts shown early in the vid with the ball going in while the pin was in were all creeping towards the hole, and the pin was of no consequence. And i think the pros definitely have an advantage here, because their greens are so fast that every ball is creeping, and even THAT might go 5' or 10' past the hole. I think a better example for normal golfers would be for them to do this test on a green that measure 7 or 8 on the stimp, use some uphill, downhill, and breaking putts, and then see the data.
@@Golfzilla70-- Absolutely the missing link in this test... pins are never 100% straight. They are influenced by weather elements, changes around the hole itself and the number of times the pin is removed and replaced. Some courses change the hole position every day, others not so much. Personally, I will leave the pin in for long putts for better depth perception. I remove the pin on short putts as it makes the hole seem bigger. I can hit like a pro on the driving range but on the course it is a different story... don't think you can make conclusions about this issue when the test is done in perfect conditions, unless you are paying big money to play a very expensive course with a big maintenance budget.
I've seen some stop the ball and drop and I've seen others hit the side and kick it out. I prefer it out, something with it sitting in the hole makes me hit it softer and leave it short.
As an engineer, I love your process. As a golfer I appreciate that you tested both rigid and thin flag sticks. No other videos work all the variations. My only time to remove it is when it is not sitting plumb vertical. If it’s leaning too much toward the player, I’ll remove it. Cheers.
Interesting. There was an article in Golf Digest a few years ago that you can still read online leaning on data from Tom Mase, a professor of engineering. He ran a test using similar methods and came to the opposite conclusion.. basically that while centre-strike putts can be of benefit, the percentage of dead-centre putts that would be travelling 6+ feet past the hole is so low as to render it useless in real world scenarios. He actually had opposite results to you guys on off-centre strikes. Either way, for me the numbers aren't enough to outweigh the mental approach. I like seeing the back of the hole, and find with a pin in I will subconsciously try to putt into the corner rather than at the middle. Pin in may very well save me 1/100 times through physics, but it costs me way more than that through mentality.
I like to take it out within about 7 feet. You tend to be hitting the ball slower and the break at the hole is more important and it's difficult to see that with the pin in vs out.
Justin, you just made their case. After your next few rounds, compute the number of holes where you leave your putt short, or where it breaks out of the hole due to a lack of proper speed. The harder you hit the putt, the more likely it will (1)get to the hole and (2)the less the break will be. If the pin helps on center hits and off center hits, wouldn't it make sense to hit your putts harder, and benefit from making sure every putt gets to the hole.
That is fascinating. I have seen various tests on this and the results vary wildly. Personally I don't mind either way and basically do what others in the group want to speed up play, it is a pain putting it in and out for different people. The only exception is when there is a strong wind and the flag stick is bending, then I want it out.
I always take the pin out when I’m inside 15’. From that distance I’m trying to die my putt into the hole. Or at worst leave a 12” comeback. At that low a speed, it helps me focus on spot and line without the distraction of target which may be on a different line
Not all cups are seated perfectly meaning the flagstick can be leaning away from or towards you. I have seen way too many putts with “perfect” speed hit a rigid pin and bounce out. I’m keeping the pin in on long putts but no way in hill is that pin staying in the cup on anything less than 20 feet.
Well, the test did show that some percentage will hit the flag and bounce out. Especially on off center strikes. The data shows that there is an advantage vs off center flag out. My guess is that you have a bias due to the way that you previously perceived the debate and are under reporting missed putts when the flag is out. Data is king. I will now leave the flag in unless there is a better study that shows otherwise.
@@pcirelli8 you've seen a dead weight putt in the middle of the hole hit the pin and bounce out? Unless the flag was leaning eccentrically, or there was some other anomaly with the cup, no you haven't.
Agreed Curious, maybe a deeper dive. Can a flag that's leaning towards you or away from you affect the outcome of a putt? Compared to a flag that's perfectly up and down. Left and right as well, but to a lesser a effect. I feel I'll a flag that's leaning away from you will knock the ball back into the air enough for it to land outside the hole. I'm all in on keeping the flag in. I think it helps with targeting as well and positioning when looking down while over a putt. Great video
Great video! Confirms past tests. Everyone I have played with during the past two years leaves the pin in. Additionally, when summer storm clouds are forming, it is much safer to not be tending a metal pin.
😅😆... your in an open field holding metal golf clubs.. i shouldnt worry about tending the pin when the storm clouds are looming. If its yout time to go, its your time to go. Your worried about the threat of the being struck the 0.000001% time spent tending a pin, of the 4 hrs your out in an open space swinging metal clubs.. I suggest you go in and postpone play if your worried about death by lightning. Dont worry about tending pins 😆
I prefer to leave the flagstick in on all putts. In tournament golf I will putt with it out, when it's been removed, unless I am last to putt. In my experience, and I play a LOT of golf, very few putts stay out because of the flagstick. Thanks for the study. I'm curious why you didn't also use 1' and/or 2' past the hole distances. These would better simulate day-to-day golf.
I leave the pin in. It improves the pace of play, and it gives me a better range of targets (left lip, left edge of stick, right edge of stick, right lip). In two years I have had only two occasions when long puts have hit the pin and stayed out...
I will leave the pin out when putting except on long lag putts. There have been times where the ball has hit the flag stick preventing the ball from dropping in the hole.
The pin stays in unless it's crooked or casts a shadow down the line of the putt. Too bad you didn't try putts that go 18" past. I rarely see amateur golfers putting so firmly that their missed putts go 3' by the hole. I think hitting putts so hard they go 6' and 9' by the hole is so rare to make the those results irrelevant. However, thanks for conducting these tests!
@@edanzore idk maybe ~1/round? The point is that it can only help. How often do you hit a 3 wood or a 4 iron per round? Sometimes none I would venture to guess
my group consists of older single digit players. we have much bettwr distance control - the pin is always removed 15’ or less - we have experiencded numerous spin outs with pin in on off center contact
Thanks for the though test and video. As a lag style putter, I usually have good speed control so I prefer the stick out unless I have a severely downhill putt. If you have the yips or like hitting putts firm to take some break out then why not leave the stick in. The other issue is that I tend to hit putts harder when the pin is in. Know your game! 🤙
I have never played a serious game of golf in my life, so the pin stays in and if the ball hits it and bounces away, I count it as a made putt anyway. Also speeds up the game. Not so hung up on rules. (like tens of millions of others)
This confirms the results of chipping tests performed by Dave Pelz (published in his 'Short Game Bible') over 20 years ago. Great for the issue to be updated and highlighted. Unless wind is bending the flagstick back towards me the pin is always in.
Interesting and informative video, thanks! But I think you and the graphics got a little inconsistent in the description of things, which made the details confusing, especially with respect to the flag types. First, in the graphics the flimsy flag is described as "tapered" throughout most (but not all) of the video. But aren't the tapered flags the rigid ones (i.e. metal construction, with skinnier diameter down by the end that inserts into the cup, i.e., taper)? I've never seen a flimsy (fiberglass) tapered flag in my 40 years of playing golf; all I've ever seen have been "parallel" flimsy flags, not tapered. Second, an average of all the % advantages for the various miss ranges and strikes for each pin type actually shows the rigid pin is the more advantageous, (unless my math is wrong, which is entirely possible. Or were the graphics mislabeled, maybe?) Third, in your summary you describe the flimsy flag as "lower COR", and "non-tapered", and the rigid one as "tapered, higher COR flag"...which contradicts all that went before. Fourth, with regard to both flag types you said in your summary that "both showed an advantage of taking the pin out", which obviously isn't what you were intending to say. Not trying to nitpick, but aside from the overall takeaway of leaving the pin in, the descriptions became very confusing.
Great video. I play at least twice a week and I have only seen two putts that should have gone but didnt with the stick in. I will be leaving it in and hitting the ball firmer from now on. Your data is impressive.
I generally leave the pin in the cup for putting, particularly on putts longer than about 5 feet and on downhill or fast putts. My only exceptions, as others have said, include when the flagstick is leaning or when wind is blowing the flimsy flagstick all over the place.
Definitely great info for the mid-high handicappers....or even for chipping around the green. But what about for good putters that only roll it ~12" past the hole. I assume the advantage goes down...but what does the data actually say?
Totally agree on leaving the pin in, only time I pull it is when I have an uphill putt and the flag is leaning towards me. For me, my thought process is 'bang the stick' to help me get the ball to the hole. Thanks MGS for another great story! -- Peejer
Very interesting. I always take the stick out but I will change that now. I feel like I can aim better with the stick out but that might just be something I tell myself. Thank you!
Great test of the physics. It would be nice to see a test with humans with and without the pin in. So many people feel the hole "looks bigger" with the pin out on short or mid range puts, not to mention the differences in depth perception with the pin in or out.
Dont worry mate, i have you covered.. P.s dont listen to this video 😆😅 Take the pin OUT! Trust me.. im a doctor. th-cam.com/video/31KsBFdDhhc/w-d-xo.html
I can say from direct experience that leaving the flag in will cause more putts to miss than go in because the flag actually knocks the ball out. I tried it for the first month or so after the rule change and I can't tell you how many putts hit the flagstick and came out that otherwise would have gone in. That being said on really long putts outside of 35 feet or so I leave it in because it helps depth perception and your odds of making a putt from that distance are less than 5% anyway.
At first I started leaving pin in 8n 2019 then went back to pulling the pin because I thought hole looked bigger. Yesterday went back to pin in what a difference made so many more puts. I convinced now that pin in is definitively more advantageous.
Very interesting test and conclusions!! I have a habit of asking for the pin out due to the “lean” of the pin and how that affects my ability to accurately read a green/putt. If I have a straight pin, i.e. no lean, I leave it in. Thanks for another great test!’
I only take the pin out if it is leaning towards me or if the wind is blowing it around. I have also noticed that no one asks to have a pin tended anymore. It is worth noting that Dave Pelz came to the same conclusion years ago but he measured a smaller advantage. He was also measuring base on chipping as in those days, you could not leave the pin in for putting.
Great vid! If flag-in was 1% better I’d still take the advantage & leave it in. Seems crazy to not take the free, now proven, gains. To me the biggest advantage is helping with reading putts. I see the break way better with the pin in from long and mid-range putting distances.
If the pin appears to lean because it is worn, damaged or the 18 year old who moved the cup that morning just isn't very good at it I remove it. Past that, I leave it in. It is easier and I have grown used to it. And NOW the numbers support ot
Leaving the pin in for longer putts (>8 ft). Someone pointed out to me that visually the hole looks bigger without the pin in - so I've started taking it out on 3-8' putts... really a mind thing but whatever helps!
Ken, I would point out that on straight putts focusing on the Pin would actually make the hole feel larger. I've also done some practice on putting at holes with smaller diameter and then when I play regulation holes it feels like a trashcan. :) I think its all about focus points.
One thing I may have missed is wether your off center strikes were straight puts or breaking. Way too often, I hit a putt, lets say 6 footer, that is breaking slightly towards the hole, glances off the side of the flag stick and gets kicked out. I firmly believe those puts would have had a very good chance of going in had the flag stick not been there and the ball had a chance to hit the back of the cup. I could be completely wrong, and of course, we'll never know, but I think flag out is the way to go. At least in this situation.
I have been leaving the pin in for a while now as I tend to strike the ball a little too hard. Glad that you confirmed my strategy as I thought it was helping but not sure.
I prefer to leave the pin in…the reason is two other groups tested and found similar results. The ONLY time the pin is removed is when they are worn out and leaning. Thanks Mygolfspy!
I like pin in cause gives you another thing to aim at or sightly off of..... I thought slightly off middle would favor no pin as the ball just falls in, wish they showed video of that one cause makes no sense
Add in a possible aiming advantage of Pin In and it's a no brainer. COVID got me started and now it's pin in all the time. Thanks for backing up my intuition with good data.
I leave it in unless the wind is moving it or very close putt. It would be interesting studies of the impact of wind on this issue or more detailed data about ball path impact by various speeds and directions of wind when putting or other shots. Great study and video! Nice assistant as well!
Leaving the pin in also depends on the slope of the green in which the hole is cut, if the hole is cut on a slope the pin could cover one side of the hole more than another, reducing the area your ball has to roll in the cup. With wind the pin could bend one way or another, again covering one side of the hole more than the other, again reducing the area to roll the ball in. In these situations, it may be advantageous to remove the pin.
Great info, but I want to see how the distance is read pin in or out. The biggest change I see (since dead center putts aren't common for amateurs) is the ability to judge the distance. I feel like I'm much better with the pin in and wonder if that is common. Also, I aim for the pin, not the cup, which gives me a larger margin of error.
Pin out. From my own experience, I've seen way more putts bounce off the pin than fall in. It seems pretty obvious that a pin will stop a horrible putt from going too far, but who plays like that? The 3 ft data set is the only one that matters. If I leave the pin in, I want to know that it won't screw up a good putt. Experience will also tell you that most pins have some degree of lean to them, whether it's from wind or a less than professional cup install.
@@ShaneNewton ok, but what do you mean by "good putt" then? What do you mean "more" putts bounce off? If they wouldn't have gone in anyways why should I pull the pin? How can you know? This video is an attempt to quantify that since humans are atrocious at intuitively basing these things off of "experience". What I mean is, I'm not sure what you're *actually* trying to say if not that.
I leave the pin in and this test just helps me know it is helping me. I will say, that on short puts, maybe 3 ft or less, I find the pin in to be a little distracting, but I leave it in and think I have gotten past the distraction on the shorter putts.
There is a major variable that you don't account for. That being how vertical the cup is cut. The position of the cup and the way that it's cut into the ground has a massive impact on how the flag leans one way or the other in the direction from which you're putting. Unfortunately that leaves a lot of room for error for many that know what I'm talking about. 360° is a lot of variables to cover when testing........ Great job mygolfspy I'm using you in my science classroom!!!!
Great stuff as always. Speeda up the game a bit leaving it in. And the data says you might make a few more putts go in, thus speeding it up a little more! Win-win
Putting is about confidence, pin out makes the hole look bigger. I have had windy days, where the tapered flagstick was blowing towards the line of my putt, closing off the possibility of a center strike. So, it's really a contextual thing. Hard to quantify confidence of line or putt on machine, clearly the pin provides an advantage on putts that go 6 feet or 9 feet past the hole, but the bigger question there is, why are you putting 6 to 9 feet past the hole in the first place?
Golf is supposed to be a skills game. For me, at least, I prefer to test my abilities and take the pin out. By leaving it in, I've now created an unnatural advantage to putting by using a foreign object. It's out for me. This was an interesting video and reaffirmed some thoughts I had regarding the subject.
Make another test with breaking putts and leaning flagsticks. Especially leaning towards the player and the incomming ball. I think then we'll see different numbers
Pin in unless it's leaning or buffeting due to the wind! I had a put not drop cause the flagstick was leaning so far over the ball bounced off it and rolled an inch away!
I leave it in, especially with long putts I prefer the site line. Some buddies I play with are convinced leaving it in might keep a ball out of the cup--- thanks for the data which NEVER demonstrates a disadvantage to leaving the flagstick IN.
This is an interesting test and just shows why for PGA Tour players that it doesn't matter if they leave the pin in. I'm going to make an assumption here that this test was done on a green with an average STIMP speed like 9 or so and that the putts were flat and straight. For tour players, the greens are usually faster like 11 average so a putt that rolls 6 feet by would be going closer to the speed of a putt that rolls 3 feet by on slower greens. They don't see too many flat or straight putts on most courses either, so the pin would be leaning, even if only 1 or 2 percent slope, which would also change the data. They aren't worried about crushing a ball 9 feet past the pin and if they did, chances are that it didn't hit any part of the hole where the stick could help. Simply put, pros don't hit putts that poorly very often and how many lip outs do you really see from them that would've hit the stick. If the ball is that far into the middle of the hole, it almost always goes in at their speed. If this really worked, then we would be able to see a real difference from the person who claims it works best, Bryson. Just looking over his stats on the putts that players are most likely to make and give a run at putting it 3-6 feet by the 10-15 ft range and the 15-20 ft range, Bryson is no better since being allowed to leave the flag stick in than he was before from 10-15 ft averaging in the low 30% range, while he has actually gotten worse from 15-20 ft where he used to average between 20.9% and 27.5% and has since averaged between 13.5% & 20.5% after the change. Could it be messing with his head? You bet. Could he be a worse putter and therefore hit fewer putts online? Of course. But overall, he isn't near the top in any of those stats and the flagstick likely hasn't helped him more than 1 or two shots per year, and may have hurt him in areas that can't be measured. With that, I will continue to take the flagstick out on putts inside 20 ft that I think I can make and keep my confidence high rather than letting the thoughts creep in that by leaving the flagstick in I can prevent the 1 out 50 really bad shots that I hit which hit the flagstick from going 9 feet by. Sometimes, the mental part is more important than the physical part.
I almost always leave the pin in. The exception is when the wind is blowing enough to move the stick around. It is probably lees of an issue at the courses using the more rigid, and less likely to "flap around" sticks. For me and my playing partners, it is as much a "pain in the ass" factor, pulling the stick out and replacing it, as anything. We are all pretty good putters and rarely hit anything more than 3 feet past so the data just confirms that it is more likely to help than hurt. One another note, Can we just please politics out of our golf chats, Barton? I am sure that we are of the same political persuasion, but it just doesn't belong in a golf discussion!
One other thing to consider if you're leaving the pin in is to check if it is leaning in any direction. If it is leaning in your direction the odds of a putt going in drop to zero % pretty quickly with the pin in.
"Not enough room for the flagstick & my ball in that cup!" That's an attitude (stained by tradition) that the 'Perfect Putter' devise cannot/does not/did not account for. Attitude, which equates itself as 'Confidence' is a pretty huge factor in whether putts go in, or not. Another variable is spin: topspin, or, sidespin resulting from off-center hits. These might still hit the hole, but rarely also ever hit the center of the stick. In summary, you did a good test, but it's skewed in favor of the stick in, for sure! Putts, in your testing, were all struck TOO FRICKIN' HARD!!! One foot past the stick on any putt, could have gone in had it caught an outside corner, 3' past, 6', or 9' past, come on now, that's shabby putting!
If your pace sucks, keep the pin in. That's how I read it. On a putt where pace is suspect for me (long downhill putts) I'm leaving the pin in. on a 10' putt, it comes out. but that's also because the sound of the flag blowing in the wind is annoying/distracting. I also cannot stand having the shadow of the flag in my putting line. I appreciate the testing done by MGS, but it doesn't really change my approach much.
Ever since your 1st pin in or out broadcast I've been pin in. This could be the best video you guys have ever produced because it's definitive. Thank you! Please keep em coming
My regular group never takes the pin out. It’s part of our efforts to play fast. (Most rounds under 3:45) It always surprises me when I play with a non-regular group or in a tourney how many players still pull the pin. Fortunately, a new etiquette has developed where at the start of a round there is a discussion about pins. Typically, those who play with the pins in don’t mind players pulling them for the group.
Great Video! Plus I feel it helps me aim all my putts better so I always leave it in. Plus when I had to play alone I never pulled the pin and enjoyed putting more.
I prefer to leave the pin in. As someone who prefers to putt aggressively and hit the ball through the break, I have had a number of putts that were going to go way past the pin but ended up hitting the pin and dropping in. I have had a few putts hit the pin and bounce back, but the number that hit and bounce in far exceeds those in my experience
DO YOU LEAVE THE PIN IN OR TAKE IT OUT? THE FIRST 1,000 COMMENTS COULD BE FEATURED ON MYGOLFSPY HOMEPAGE!
FYI, at 7:40 in the video you say "no matter what, both show an advantage of TAKING THE PIN OUT". 🙂
Might want to re-record that section!
You should take into consideration that sometimes pins sit in a hole a bit flimsy and lean to one side or another.
That may be crucial if you see pin leaning toward you and in fact closing the hole that you have to wiggle the pin so the ball would go in....
Ever since the rule change to allow leaving the pin in all the players in my group (5-12 hcps) have left the pin in. At first I thought it would be weird since I'd been pulling the pin for 40 years but I really like having it in for depth perception on long putts and targeting on the short ones. I have only had a few putts that have bounced off the pin that MIGHT have gone in otherwise, but I know for sure I've had many, that were hit way too hard, that went in and would've never had a chance without it.
One caveat - if I'm playing with someone who likes it out, I'm not having them replace it for me because that defeats the intention of the rule, which is to speed up play.
I think an interesting follow up would be looking at putts that are going into a hole at an angle (i.e. not a straight putt). I’ve been playing with the pin in since the original study, but that’s the only time I feel like I get burned. When I hit a putt that goes top center of the hole, it hits the pin and bounces out when I feel like it would have gone in with the pin out.
Data Data Data - pin in from now on.. plus the added benefit of quicker play since the guys that ALWAYS miss their 3’ putts taking 5 min to line it up and then - MISSSSSS..
I leave the flag in on longer putts. It helps with my 3d distance focus. Close up take the pin out and the hole looks bigger.
THIS!!
Same. Except after watching this. I’m going to be checking what type of flagsticks my course has, and might be leaving it in. Lol
This is what I came to say. Perhaps it is that I am now 69 years old. I now leave the pin in on all my putts because of the increased sense of distance that it affords me.
I do it exactly the way you mentioned, but don't care if the putt is 2 feet or less.
Hole looks bigger but less of a chance to make it.
Leave the pin in for most puts. Only take it out when the shadow is in the line, if wind is rattling the stick or if it's leaning due to uneven socket connection. Also, on longer putts, it offers a visual distance marker, equivalent to a co-player tending the flag but without the visual interference of same [the co-player].
I actually prefer the shadow on my line. I use it as a guide to the hole and hit it a lot firmer when the shadow is present.
I play on a inland-links golf course with a lot of wind most of the time. I’ll take it out for short puts that need to drop slow because the pin can bend and make the one side smaller so the ball doesn’t droo
If you're hitting the ball 6, 7, 9 feet past the hole from 20 feet out, you've got a bigger problem than leaving the pin in or not.
bingo
It's not as big of a problem as you think, if you leave the pin in.
100%
Ding ding ding
@@adameves5970 If you are rolling 20 footers 6 -9 feet past you aren't good enough to hit the pin anyways lol
People who say they leave the pin in all the time are crazy! I play almost every day. I am a single digit handicap 8. I play many different courses. When the pin is at a tilt, either because of a poor job of the hole being put in squarely or the flag stick bottom is a loose fit. I take the stick out. The reason is I lose the low side on putts when the stick leans that way, and too many bounce off the stick. Your test is correct when the flag is very straight and a good fit! Especially windy courses seem to have poorer fitting flags that cause them to lean because the hole in the bottom of the cup or the bottom portion of the flag wears out. You have perfect conditions and when I do I leave it in.
I've played a lot of solo golf in the 25 years before the rule change and always kept the pin in because it was a PITA taking it out every time. So I'm used to it and when the rule change happened I was happy.
Pin in all the time..every time
Please with wind conditions next! Locally my pin is always tilted due to local wind. It closes the hole and makes things impossible on that side of the cup. Cheers! Love the videos.
Pull the pin if wind is at you and closing down the hole
Scoring happens through putting. This is an important topic and I am glad you addressed it. There are; however, two ancillary issues in putting that exist in real life on the course that are difficult to measure in a controlled environment. (1) Many holes are poorly cut and not perpendicular to the ground. This means the flagstick leans to one side. If the lean is severe enough, especially if the wind is blowing, it is possible to have one side of the hole that the ball is too wide to go down. (2) Golfers over 40 years old develop what my optometrist calls "drifty eye." The golfer "sees" the hole in the mind to the right of where it actually is. With a larger object in the peripheral vision (the flagstick), this tendency can become even more exaggerated. This is my problem and I do not think I am alone in this.
No, you are not alone. I have no clinical explanation, but I tended to miss right until I started using an alignment line on my ball. Now after I line up my ball and then standing over it, it looks like I will miss left, but I don't. I can be a little disconcerting, but I have to trust the alignment line on my ball.
I leave the pin in every putt and have done so since the rule change. The findings from this study confirms my experience on the course. Very good work MyGolfSpy!
I have been playing for 51yrs, I started leaving the pin in about 10yrs ago. It was never about the using the pin to help the putt, it was always about helping me see the hole while I was putting and also to speed up play.
Another potential factor- I feel like it improves my depth perception to leave the pin in, particularly on longer puts. Great test, thanks!
If you're someone who is hitting putts hard enough to go 20 ft past the pin, you should probably take up hockey, sounds like you have a decent slap shot. What is not clear from this test is how far from the hole the ball starts. A ball that rolls 3ft past from 20ft away is not great but not that bad. A putt that rolls that far past from 6ft away is a much bigger issue. Seems to me that the vast majority of recreational golfers should focus on developing some touch and speed control on the green. Most of the misses I see at my club among higher handicaps are more a factor of bad speed than a bad read....the line is meaningless anyway if the speed used doesn't match the break you see. This whole "pin in, pin out" is an entertaining sidebar but not vey impactful IMO. For what it's worth, as a 4-hcap I tend to leave it in on long putts for depth perception reasons, and I take it out on shorter ones for two reasons 1 - I find it visually distracting and 2 - On short putts with break, I like to "firm" them in and take some of the break out, and I feel like I've had the pin (we use the firm tapered ones) keep it out more than it has helped it go in.
Agreed Anthony. The speed at which the ball hits the pin is everything. To show a dramatic difference, a 1' putt stroked to roll 9' past the hole is going to hit the pin a lot harder (faster) than a 20' putt stroked to roll 9' past the hole. Why are we analyzing putts that would go 6'+ past the hole. If you put like that, you've got more to work on than deciding pin in or out.
DeChambeau convinced me and you have confirmed it. I leave the pin in all the time. I play in a men’s league on Tuesday mornings and just about all of the players leave the pin in; although, there are a couple of holdouts who take it out. Thanks for taking the time to do the research to take away all lingering doubt.
I discovered this by accident, because we were forced to leave the pin in during the pandemic, on short putts, I started to actually hit the ball harder than I used to because I noticed, like a backboard the ball's energy was being absorbed by the pin and going straight down. It would appear that my putting has vastly improved but I'm just hitting it harder now and taking the break out. This video and what Dechambeau said now validates the suspicion I had .
Leave it in for every putt. It is like a backboard and helps, even though it is round. I figure if I drill it too fast it can't hurt and most likely slows it down!
I watch you use the tool that drops the ball that goes to the hole, and I would never hit any putt that hard towards a hole that it would hit the hole and jump out if the pole is not in the hole. So I think it is more your feel to the hole in the angle it goes in whether the pin is in or not. I always find also that longer puts I will use the PIN, but anything that is 15 ft or closer I pull the pin out because the hole looks bigger and it allows me to see the break better.
Golf digest had Dr. Tom Mase, a professor at Cal Poly run this test after leaving the pin in was made legal. He found that taking the pin out was more advantageous. He found on BREAKING putts that leaving the pin in resulted in more putts bouncing off the pin and missing! Did my golf spy test any breaking putts? It looked like a straight putt to me. Perhaps they should have tested this concept more thoroughly!
I agree completely.
I do not believe this is possibly so-there would be an occasional exception but it would be far from the rule. The physics and common sense declare this is not true. OTOH, golf is rife with psychological components and here there is likely a developed personal bias of preference in this regard. My playing partners would define me as being an excellent putter-always have been...pin in or out. But my putting has improved since we have the option of leaving it in. The real advantage here comes with longer putts and the improvement in length and depth perception that comes with leaving the pin in. I don't believe there are any ways to accurately test the question under live playing conditions.
Very interesting, but if your hitting putts that are going more than 3 ft past the hole you need to work on your pace control. For any timid putters out there (myself included) pin in might help confidence to hit it slightly harder. might be a good idea to try it out (even if its just in practice to build confidence).
I will never be the guy that's putting the flag back in before I hit a putt!!!
Exactly. This was a test for not so good golfers. Very few pros leave it it. The first example was What, 20 feet by. Please
@@edanzore Exactly, if you need help from the pin, then your putting needs help in general.
@@bobt5778 if you don't have enough control over distance, than you might not have the line either
in 2018 when it was announced that we would soon be able to putt with the pin in, I did take an afternoon to test both options. It was clearly better to leave the flag in. I did look into the "science" of it, and there are two reasons. The first one, evidenced in this video: the flag absorbs a part of the energy, redirects it down, so you have more chances of holing out, AND if not, the miss will stay closer to the flag. The second one is cognitive science: flag in give you a "positive space target", that is something to aim at that "is there", flag out gives a negative space target, a missing thing, a hole, and the brain definitely handles the former better. You'll therefore have a "more accurate target", a "better perception of distance" AND the energy absorption effect.
Why some still putt with the flag in is unfathomable to me... Sure it take a bit to get used to putting flag in, but that "bit" is like two days of practice, and the benefits are strong, in scoring AND pace of play.
Make putting flag in mandatory already, R&A and USGA!!
Correct - If they think the flag is best left out - they would never chip with the flag in - 99% of golfers chip with the flag in, because they think it will help if they hit it...lol
I like what you're saying and agree with how the brain handles things and the perception of distance. But on a breaking putt, the hole is not your "target", a spot some distance down your intended line should be your "target".
Great video I leave the flag in on longer putts. It helps with my alignment and posture. Close up take the pin out and aim for the back of the hole. Recently I have hit the flag (taper flag) and the ball rebounds out and I am left wondering if the ball would have dropped due to the void or it hitting the back of the hole! Data is convincing but still not convinced!
Pin out 100% , rarely do I go more then 3 foot past.unless it’s a very long putt or a down hill fast putt.
The labeling of the results shown between 4:30 to 7:06 seem to have the "Rigid" and "Flimsy" mixed up as compared to the summery at the end.
You forgot the most important test. The “my club changes pins and cups every 3 years and they are never perfectly straight up and down” test.
funny response, but you've definitely hit on the real-world aspect here. It would be nice to see a collection of putts that don't go in with the pin in (i've seen them on TV plenty enough, but of course i don't have a link to them). Every one of those putts shown early in the vid with the ball going in while the pin was in were all creeping towards the hole, and the pin was of no consequence. And i think the pros definitely have an advantage here, because their greens are so fast that every ball is creeping, and even THAT might go 5' or 10' past the hole. I think a better example for normal golfers would be for them to do this test on a green that measure 7 or 8 on the stimp, use some uphill, downhill, and breaking putts, and then see the data.
This is a faulty test
@@edanzore Explain why it's faulty
@@Golfzilla70-- Absolutely the missing link in this test... pins are never 100% straight. They are influenced by weather elements, changes around the hole itself and the number of times the pin is removed and replaced. Some courses change the hole position every day, others not so much. Personally, I will leave the pin in for long putts for better depth perception. I remove the pin on short putts as it makes the hole seem bigger. I can hit like a pro on the driving range but on the course it is a different story... don't think you can make conclusions about this issue when the test is done in perfect conditions, unless you are paying big money to play a very expensive course with a big maintenance budget.
I've seen some stop the ball and drop and I've seen others hit the side and kick it out. I prefer it out, something with it sitting in the hole makes me hit it softer and leave it short.
And a short putt has yet to ever go in-don't understand your "point".
As an engineer, I love your process. As a golfer I appreciate that you tested both rigid and thin flag sticks. No other videos work all the variations. My only time to remove it is when it is not sitting plumb vertical. If it’s leaning too much toward the player, I’ll remove it. Cheers.
Interesting. There was an article in Golf Digest a few years ago that you can still read online leaning on data from Tom Mase, a professor of engineering. He ran a test using similar methods and came to the opposite conclusion.. basically that while centre-strike putts can be of benefit, the percentage of dead-centre putts that would be travelling 6+ feet past the hole is so low as to render it useless in real world scenarios.
He actually had opposite results to you guys on off-centre strikes.
Either way, for me the numbers aren't enough to outweigh the mental approach. I like seeing the back of the hole, and find with a pin in I will subconsciously try to putt into the corner rather than at the middle. Pin in may very well save me 1/100 times through physics, but it costs me way more than that through mentality.
I like to take it out within about 7 feet. You tend to be hitting the ball slower and the break at the hole is more important and it's difficult to see that with the pin in vs out.
Justin, you just made their case. After your next few rounds, compute the number of holes where you leave your putt short, or where it breaks out of the hole due to a lack of proper speed. The harder you hit the putt, the more likely it will (1)get to the hole and (2)the less the break will be. If the pin helps on center hits and off center hits, wouldn't it make sense to hit your putts harder, and benefit from making sure every putt gets to the hole.
That is fascinating. I have seen various tests on this and the results vary wildly. Personally I don't mind either way and basically do what others in the group want to speed up play, it is a pain putting it in and out for different people. The only exception is when there is a strong wind and the flag stick is bending, then I want it out.
I always take the pin out when I’m inside 15’. From that distance I’m trying to die my putt into the hole. Or at worst leave a 12” comeback. At that low a speed, it helps me focus on spot and line without the distraction of target which may be on a different line
Pin in. There’s a reason it wasn’t optional before. If it was harder with pin in, there wouldn’t be a need for the pin in rule to begin with.
Not all cups are seated perfectly meaning the flagstick can be leaning away from or towards you. I have seen way too many putts with “perfect” speed hit a rigid pin and bounce out.
I’m keeping the pin in on long putts but no way in hill is that pin staying in the cup on anything less than 20 feet.
Totally agree. I have seen too many putts kept out of the hole by the pin.
Well, the test did show that some percentage will hit the flag and bounce out. Especially on off center strikes.
The data shows that there is an advantage vs off center flag out.
My guess is that you have a bias due to the way that you previously perceived the debate and are under reporting missed putts when the flag is out.
Data is king. I will now leave the flag in unless there is a better study that shows otherwise.
Was looking for this comment
I would say reality is King. I’ve seen perfect putts hit the pin and bounce out. Worst feeling ever on a golf course.
@@pcirelli8 you've seen a dead weight putt in the middle of the hole hit the pin and bounce out? Unless the flag was leaning eccentrically, or there was some other anomaly with the cup, no you haven't.
Agreed
Curious, maybe a deeper dive. Can a flag that's leaning towards you or away from you affect the outcome of a putt? Compared to a flag that's perfectly up and down. Left and right as well, but to a lesser a effect. I feel I'll a flag that's leaning away from you will knock the ball back into the air enough for it to land outside the hole.
I'm all in on keeping the flag in. I think it helps with targeting as well and positioning when looking down while over a putt.
Great video
So impressed how u made that video so interesting but results were very surprising. Great work
Great video! Confirms past tests. Everyone I have played with during the past two years leaves the pin in. Additionally, when summer storm clouds are forming, it is much safer to not be tending a metal pin.
😅😆... your in an open field holding metal golf clubs.. i shouldnt worry about tending the pin when the storm clouds are looming. If its yout time to go, its your time to go. Your worried about the threat of the being struck the 0.000001% time spent tending a pin, of the 4 hrs your out in an open space swinging metal clubs.. I suggest you go in and postpone play if your worried about death by lightning. Dont worry about tending pins 😆
would love to see stats on 6- 21 ft putts that are hit dave pelz 17” past the hole
that would be more relevant to many of us i think
Agreed. Why are we analyzing putts that would go 6'+ past the hole. If you put like that, you've got more to work on than deciding pin in or out.
And you know Pelz said to leave it in.
I prefer to leave the flagstick in on all putts. In tournament golf I will putt with it out, when it's been removed, unless I am last to putt.
In my experience, and I play a LOT of golf, very few putts stay out because of the flagstick.
Thanks for the study. I'm curious why you didn't also use 1' and/or 2' past the hole distances. These would better simulate day-to-day golf.
I leave the pin in. It improves the pace of play, and it gives me a better range of targets (left lip, left edge of stick, right edge of stick, right lip). In two years I have had only two occasions when long puts have hit the pin and stayed out...
I will leave the pin out when putting except on long lag putts. There have been times where the ball has hit the flag stick preventing the ball from dropping in the hole.
The pin stays in unless it's crooked or casts a shadow down the line of the putt. Too bad you didn't try putts that go 18" past. I rarely see amateur golfers putting so firmly that their missed putts go 3' by the hole. I think hitting putts so hard they go 6' and 9' by the hole is so rare to make the those results irrelevant. However, thanks for conducting these tests!
You’ve never seen someone hammer a 20-30 footer, 6-9 feet past?
@@PghJake_ how many hit the stick?🤔
@@edanzore idk maybe ~1/round? The point is that it can only help. How often do you hit a 3 wood or a 4 iron per round? Sometimes none I would venture to guess
my group consists of older single digit players.
we have much bettwr distance control - the pin is always removed 15’ or less - we have experiencded numerous spin outs with pin in on off center contact
Dam that is a big difference!! Thanks for testing!
Thanks for the though test and video. As a lag style putter, I usually have good speed control so I prefer the stick out unless I have a severely downhill putt. If you have the yips or like hitting putts firm to take some break out then why not leave the stick in. The other issue is that I tend to hit putts harder when the pin is in. Know your game! 🤙
I have never played a serious game of golf in my life, so the pin stays in and if the ball hits it and bounces away, I count it as a made putt anyway. Also speeds up the game. Not so hung up on rules. (like tens of millions of others)
This confirms the results of chipping tests performed by Dave Pelz (published in his 'Short Game Bible') over 20 years ago. Great for the issue to be updated and highlighted. Unless wind is bending the flagstick back towards me the pin is always in.
Thank you all for all your hard work and dedication.
Thanks for watching!
Thanks! Been saying this to my group since the rule change!
You guys are the absolute monsters of objective data.
Interesting and informative video, thanks! But I think you and the graphics got a little inconsistent in the description of things, which made the details confusing, especially with respect to the flag types.
First, in the graphics the flimsy flag is described as "tapered" throughout most (but not all) of the video. But aren't the tapered flags the rigid ones (i.e. metal construction, with skinnier diameter down by the end that inserts into the cup, i.e., taper)? I've never seen a flimsy (fiberglass) tapered flag in my 40 years of playing golf; all I've ever seen have been "parallel" flimsy flags, not tapered.
Second, an average of all the % advantages for the various miss ranges and strikes for each pin type actually shows the rigid pin is the more advantageous, (unless my math is wrong, which is entirely possible. Or were the graphics mislabeled, maybe?)
Third, in your summary you describe the flimsy flag as "lower COR", and "non-tapered", and the rigid one as "tapered, higher COR flag"...which contradicts all that went before.
Fourth, with regard to both flag types you said in your summary that "both showed an advantage of taking the pin out", which obviously isn't what you were intending to say.
Not trying to nitpick, but aside from the overall takeaway of leaving the pin in, the descriptions became very confusing.
Great video. I play at least twice a week and I have only seen two putts that should have gone but didnt with the stick in. I will be leaving it in and hitting the ball firmer from now on.
Your data is impressive.
I generally leave the pin in the cup for putting, particularly on putts longer than about 5 feet and on downhill or fast putts. My only exceptions, as others have said, include when the flagstick is leaning or when wind is blowing the flimsy flagstick all over the place.
Definitely great info for the mid-high handicappers....or even for chipping around the green. But what about for good putters that only roll it ~12" past the hole. I assume the advantage goes down...but what does the data actually say?
wouldn't even hit the stick most likely at that speed
Totally agree on leaving the pin in, only time I pull it is when I have an uphill putt and the flag is leaning towards me. For me, my thought process is 'bang the stick' to help me get the ball to the hole. Thanks MGS for another great story! -- Peejer
Very interesting. I always take the stick out but I will change that now. I feel like I can aim better with the stick out but that might just be something I tell myself. Thank you!
Great test of the physics. It would be nice to see a test with humans with and without the pin in. So many people feel the hole "looks bigger" with the pin out on short or mid range puts, not to mention the differences in depth perception with the pin in or out.
Dont worry mate, i have you covered..
P.s dont listen to this video 😆😅
Take the pin OUT! Trust me.. im a doctor.
th-cam.com/video/31KsBFdDhhc/w-d-xo.html
There you go bud... the real answer.
And the test with humans with and without the pin. Happy reading
I aim for the back of the cup, so out for me.
I can say from direct experience that leaving the flag in will cause more putts to miss than go in because the flag actually knocks the ball out. I tried it for the first month or so after the rule change and I can't tell you how many putts hit the flagstick and came out that otherwise would have gone in. That being said on really long putts outside of 35 feet or so I leave it in because it helps depth perception and your odds of making a putt from that distance are less than 5% anyway.
Good stuff. Only exception is when wind or bad hole causes pin to lie at enough of an angle to close off part of the hole.
At first I started leaving pin in 8n 2019 then went back to pulling the pin because I thought hole looked bigger. Yesterday went back to pin in what a difference made so many more puts. I convinced now that pin in is definitively more advantageous.
In. It also makes it easier to judge distance and line up putts for me.
Very interesting test and conclusions!! I have a habit of asking for the pin out due to the “lean” of the pin and how that affects my ability to accurately read a green/putt. If I have a straight pin, i.e. no lean, I leave it in. Thanks for another great test!’
Yesssss!!! Vindicated... Take that, flag pulling person...😁 great work Adam👍
I only take the pin out if it is leaning towards me or if the wind is blowing it around. I have also noticed that no one asks to have a pin tended anymore. It is worth noting that Dave Pelz came to the same conclusion years ago but he measured a smaller advantage. He was also measuring base on chipping as in those days, you could not leave the pin in for putting.
Great vid! If flag-in was 1% better I’d still take the advantage & leave it in. Seems crazy to not take the free, now proven, gains. To me the biggest advantage is helping with reading putts. I see the break way better with the pin in from long and mid-range putting distances.
If the pin appears to lean because it is worn, damaged or the 18 year old who moved the cup that morning just isn't very good at it I remove it. Past that, I leave it in. It is easier and I have grown used to it. And NOW the numbers support ot
Leaving the pin in for longer putts (>8 ft). Someone pointed out to me that visually the hole looks bigger without the pin in - so I've started taking it out on 3-8' putts... really a mind thing but whatever helps!
Ken, I would point out that on straight putts focusing on the Pin would actually make the hole feel larger. I've also done some practice on putting at holes with smaller diameter and then when I play regulation holes it feels like a trashcan. :) I think its all about focus points.
Not for nothing, but if you're hitting your putts 20 feet past the hole, you have bigger things to worry about than pin in vs. pin out.
All joking aside, thank you for the data-based approach on this question...the results are interesting.
Science is pretty firm...leave the pin in. Does give a significant visual target. Only had 1 putt bounce out in 2+ years...
I’ve been fortunate to make 17 holes in one. ALL of them had the pin in the hole! 😁
One thing I may have missed is wether your off center strikes were straight puts or breaking. Way too often, I hit a putt, lets say 6 footer, that is breaking slightly towards the hole, glances off the side of the flag stick and gets kicked out. I firmly believe those puts would have had a very good chance of going in had the flag stick not been there and the ball had a chance to hit the back of the cup. I could be completely wrong, and of course, we'll never know, but I think flag out is the way to go. At least in this situation.
I have been leaving the pin in for a while now as I tend to strike the ball a little too hard. Glad that you confirmed my strategy as I thought it was helping but not sure.
I prefer to leave the pin in…the reason is two other groups tested and found similar results. The ONLY time the pin is removed is when they are worn out and leaning. Thanks Mygolfspy!
I like pin in cause gives you another thing to aim at or sightly off of..... I thought slightly off middle would favor no pin as the ball just falls in, wish they showed video of that one cause makes no sense
Great video. I would like to see the same test adding uphill and downhill putts as a variable.
Add in a possible aiming advantage of Pin In and it's a no brainer. COVID got me started and now it's pin in all the time. Thanks for backing up my intuition with good data.
I leave it in unless the wind is moving it or very close putt. It would be interesting studies of the impact of wind on this issue or more detailed data about ball path impact by various speeds and directions of wind when putting or other shots. Great study and video! Nice assistant as well!
Leaving the pin in also depends on the slope of the green in which the hole is cut, if the hole is cut on a slope the pin could cover one side of the hole more than another, reducing the area your ball has to roll in the cup. With wind the pin could bend one way or another, again covering one side of the hole more than the other, again reducing the area to roll the ball in. In these situations, it may be advantageous to remove the pin.
Excellent study, I've been leaving pin in since covid..... now I see it is a good idea.
Great info, but I want to see how the distance is read pin in or out. The biggest change I see (since dead center putts aren't common for amateurs) is the ability to judge the distance. I feel like I'm much better with the pin in and wonder if that is common. Also, I aim for the pin, not the cup, which gives me a larger margin of error.
Pin out. From my own experience, I've seen way more putts bounce off the pin than fall in.
It seems pretty obvious that a pin will stop a horrible putt from going too far, but who plays like that?
The 3 ft data set is the only one that matters. If I leave the pin in, I want to know that it won't screw up a good putt. Experience will also tell you that most pins have some degree of lean to them, whether it's from wind or a less than professional cup install.
How can you know a putt would have dropped without the pin in? Our brains do funny things with frequency / statistics / guesstimations.
@@jasonce123 I never said it did. I said I've seen more putts bounce off than fall in.
@@ShaneNewton ok, but what do you mean by "good putt" then? What do you mean "more" putts bounce off? If they wouldn't have gone in anyways why should I pull the pin? How can you know? This video is an attempt to quantify that since humans are atrocious at intuitively basing these things off of "experience". What I mean is, I'm not sure what you're *actually* trying to say if not that.
@@jasonce123 how dare you
Thank you! That Q was on my mind and you put it to rest. Great video!
Superb! This is such an advantage that I am installing pins in all the urinals in the clubhouse so the men miss less often!
Leaving it in, have been for over 10 years, saves time as well
I leave the pin in and this test just helps me know it is helping me. I will say, that on short puts, maybe 3 ft or less, I find the pin in to be a little distracting, but I leave it in and think I have gotten past the distraction on the shorter putts.
You hit your flat putts 3, 6 and 9 feet PAST?
There is a major variable that you don't account for. That being how vertical the cup is cut. The position of the cup and the way that it's cut into the ground has a massive impact on how the flag leans one way or the other in the direction from which you're putting. Unfortunately that leaves a lot of room for error for many that know what I'm talking about. 360° is a lot of variables to cover when testing........ Great job mygolfspy I'm using you in my science classroom!!!!
Great stuff as always. Speeda up the game a bit leaving it in. And the data says you might make a few more putts go in, thus speeding it up a little more!
Win-win
Putting is about confidence, pin out makes the hole look bigger.
I have had windy days, where the tapered flagstick was blowing towards the line of my putt, closing off the possibility of a center strike.
So, it's really a contextual thing.
Hard to quantify confidence of line or putt on machine, clearly the pin provides an advantage on putts that go 6 feet or 9 feet past the hole, but the bigger question there is, why are you putting 6 to 9 feet past the hole in the first place?
Golf is supposed to be a skills game. For me, at least, I prefer to test my abilities and take the pin out. By leaving it in, I've now created an unnatural advantage to putting by using a foreign object. It's out for me. This was an interesting video and reaffirmed some thoughts I had regarding the subject.
Make another test with breaking putts and leaning flagsticks. Especially leaning towards the player and the incomming ball. I think then we'll see different numbers
Pin in unless it's leaning or buffeting due to the wind! I had a put not drop cause the flagstick was leaning so far over the ball bounced off it and rolled an inch away!
I leave it in, especially with long putts I prefer the site line. Some buddies I play with are convinced leaving it in might keep a ball out of the cup--- thanks for the data which NEVER demonstrates a disadvantage to leaving the flagstick IN.
This is an interesting test and just shows why for PGA Tour players that it doesn't matter if they leave the pin in. I'm going to make an assumption here that this test was done on a green with an average STIMP speed like 9 or so and that the putts were flat and straight. For tour players, the greens are usually faster like 11 average so a putt that rolls 6 feet by would be going closer to the speed of a putt that rolls 3 feet by on slower greens. They don't see too many flat or straight putts on most courses either, so the pin would be leaning, even if only 1 or 2 percent slope, which would also change the data. They aren't worried about crushing a ball 9 feet past the pin and if they did, chances are that it didn't hit any part of the hole where the stick could help. Simply put, pros don't hit putts that poorly very often and how many lip outs do you really see from them that would've hit the stick. If the ball is that far into the middle of the hole, it almost always goes in at their speed. If this really worked, then we would be able to see a real difference from the person who claims it works best, Bryson. Just looking over his stats on the putts that players are most likely to make and give a run at putting it 3-6 feet by the 10-15 ft range and the 15-20 ft range, Bryson is no better since being allowed to leave the flag stick in than he was before from 10-15 ft averaging in the low 30% range, while he has actually gotten worse from 15-20 ft where he used to average between 20.9% and 27.5% and has since averaged between 13.5% & 20.5% after the change. Could it be messing with his head? You bet. Could he be a worse putter and therefore hit fewer putts online? Of course. But overall, he isn't near the top in any of those stats and the flagstick likely hasn't helped him more than 1 or two shots per year, and may have hurt him in areas that can't be measured. With that, I will continue to take the flagstick out on putts inside 20 ft that I think I can make and keep my confidence high rather than letting the thoughts creep in that by leaving the flagstick in I can prevent the 1 out 50 really bad shots that I hit which hit the flagstick from going 9 feet by. Sometimes, the mental part is more important than the physical part.
I almost always leave the pin in. The exception is when the wind is blowing enough to move the stick around. It is probably lees of an issue at the courses using the more rigid, and less likely to "flap around" sticks. For me and my playing partners, it is as much a "pain in the ass" factor, pulling the stick out and replacing it, as anything. We are all pretty good putters and rarely hit anything more than 3 feet past so the data just confirms that it is more likely to help than hurt. One another note, Can we just please politics out of our golf chats, Barton? I am sure that we are of the same political persuasion, but it just doesn't belong in a golf discussion!
One other thing to consider if you're leaving the pin in is to check if it is leaning in any direction. If it is leaning in your direction the odds of a putt going in drop to zero % pretty quickly with the pin in.
Pin in , especially for long putts helps my peripheral and feel the distance control .
"Not enough room for the flagstick & my ball in that cup!" That's an attitude (stained by tradition) that the 'Perfect Putter' devise cannot/does not/did not account for. Attitude, which equates itself as 'Confidence' is a pretty huge factor in whether putts go in, or not. Another variable is spin: topspin, or, sidespin resulting from off-center hits. These might still hit the hole, but rarely also ever hit the center of the stick. In summary, you did a good test, but it's skewed in favor of the stick in, for sure! Putts, in your testing, were all struck TOO FRICKIN' HARD!!! One foot past the stick on any putt, could have gone in had it caught an outside corner, 3' past, 6', or 9' past, come on now, that's shabby putting!
If your pace sucks, keep the pin in. That's how I read it. On a putt where pace is suspect for me (long downhill putts) I'm leaving the pin in. on a 10' putt, it comes out. but that's also because the sound of the flag blowing in the wind is annoying/distracting. I also cannot stand having the shadow of the flag in my putting line. I appreciate the testing done by MGS, but it doesn't really change my approach much.
Ever since your 1st pin in or out broadcast I've been pin in. This could be the best video you guys have ever produced because it's definitive. Thank you! Please keep em coming
My regular group never takes the pin out. It’s part of our efforts to play fast. (Most rounds under 3:45) It always surprises me when I play with a non-regular group or in a tourney how many players still pull the pin. Fortunately, a new etiquette has developed where at the start of a round there is a discussion about pins. Typically, those who play with the pins in don’t mind players pulling them for the group.
Great Video! Plus I feel it helps me aim all my putts better so I always leave it in. Plus when I had to play alone I never pulled the pin and enjoyed putting more.
I make wayyyy more with the pin out
I prefer to leave the pin in. As someone who prefers to putt aggressively and hit the ball through the break, I have had a number of putts that were going to go way past the pin but ended up hitting the pin and dropping in. I have had a few putts hit the pin and bounce back, but the number that hit and bounce in far exceeds those in my experience