Controller (Houston Center) & pilot here. You can definitely tell us as ATC to slow down. The busier we get, the faster we tend to talk. My trainer actually used to say “slow down to speed up”. It’s so true. If you’re constantly having to repeat yourself or you’re being misunderstood, it ends up putting you more down the crapper!
"Say again, slower please" works great in my experience. I've used that line many times and ATC never responded in a negative way. I work with them every day... They truly want their communications to be understood!
Consider separating the two phrases into FAST and slow, eg... "Say'gen...s l o w e r ... p l e a s e". First half rapid, second half more appropriate speed. Old police/fire/ems dispatch technique. I try and make the other guy feel like it's my fault for not being able to "hear fast enough", rather than he's "Talking too fast". Then of course, release the PTT and start cussing out the other guy. Did I mention release the PTT?
I was a navy flight officer for 18 years and I'm now a part 91 chauffeur. I have always known that my safety, my passengers safety and the safety of my aircraft was totally my responsibility. I know you feel the same way. You knew the frequency change was not safe and you did what was right. Very teachable moment. Thanks for a great video and be safe. PS: My daughter is a ATC in the Houston area and she totally agrees.
This is one of your best videos for a Student or New pilot. Never, Ever just do what ATC requests without question. I fly out of KMYF in San Diego which has parallel runways (28R and 28L). KMYF is also a training site for ATC controllers. I requested a take off with a departure to the east. Typically that's a departure on the right with a right down wind to the east. Ground put me on the left runway. So OK....cleared for take off on the left with a 172 also cleared on the parallel (right). I'm climbing out and ATC clears me for a right cross wind. Well I had a good instructor. she always stressed to clear your turn. Well guess what if I had made that turn to the right as instructed, I wouldn't be writing this to you. Right off my right is that Cessna that just took off on the right runway. And yes....I have asked ATC to repeat slower several times. I ask questions of ATC. I have asked for setups to runways, I have questioned altitudes, I have asked about traffic etc. Heres another one....You will get a traffic alert either in haze or you might be flying into the sun and the traffic is at your 12 o'clock. I tell ATC....I let them know I cant see this traffic we'll....I ask them to keep an eye out for me. In Southern California, I have never had a controller not help. Again great video on ATC and what can happen. As pilots it might not be our fault, but it is our responsibility!
That's encouraging to hear about telling ATC to slow down. If I ever decided to get a pilot's license, talking on the radio would be my biggest anxiety because they always seem to go so fast. Hell I have a hard time understanding people over the phone sometimes.
I wear my AirPods under my headset for the sole purpose of the foreflight alerts. I've been doing this for about 2 months and it's been a game changer for me. I usually get the alerts and identify the traffic out the window before being advised by ATC of the traffic. Love the content Jason!
Last year I found myself doing the same thing - I fly out of a class D airport and have been doing it for so long that I was the one talking way too fast partially because it had become so routine. This, I think, was a form of complacency, something I try to recognize I myself, not always successfully. I have since slowed way down both at home base and at other airports. I joined the Civil Air Patrol and they have encouraged me to slow down even more - reading lats and longs in particular requires what seemed to me at first to be glacially slow pace, but it is actually a time saver as there are seldom requests for a repeat.
I couldn't agree more. It was never taught to me, but I've always thought intuitively that it's wise to at least monitor the CTAF or tower frequency if you're operating near an airport. Especially if you're on a long XC. It gives you something to do!
Did you make an ASRS report? It seems like a worthwhile one in this case. Not because of the fast talking alone, but because of the fast talking plus frequency change plus oncoming traffic.
he’s VFR in class D, the controller was perfectly legal just not particularly helpful. I actually get this sort of thing quite often, sometimes the controller will come back and ask if I’m still monitoring and gives me traffic info or I switch to flight information
That's the reason I filed IFR almost always ... When I was on IFR and got a Freq change. didn't have flip flop radios back in the day I would set the new Erwq in the other radio and keep the Head phones on bot radios. But the I can watch 3 TV stations at the same time. Love your vids keep'em comin
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Good point/video: Jason Definitively happened to me many times. Controller tell you, you can change freq. and even try to contact you there if by any chances you're still on the line. I always keep and monitor the tower frequency on com2 for at least the double of the class exit distance (let s say here: Coyote Hills-which is a major report point for pilot) Of course if equipment/time/workload permits in VFR. IFR is out of the story since ATC will take you as soon as the tower will handle off (if my knowledge is accurate) (still an IFR student).
Flight following is workload permitting. So he may not be able to pickup flight following in time if getting flight following setup is low on his priority list when he's dealing with lots of other traffic.
I have the same issue with controllers cancelling my VFR flight following for me when I'm descending into an airport below a Class C shelf, and have to descend through it to reach the airport. It's the same thing. Technically legal, not necessarily safe. Great video👍🏼
Some newer radios allow you to monitor the standby frequency. Even if I'm not actively communicating with near-by controlled airspace, I'm monitoring it on standby whenever I can.
I actually learned the “speak slower” thing as a brand new student in 1972. My CFI and I had just started the engine and turned on the radio when we heard one of the other students, Bill, call Elmendorf AFB ground for taxi-and he spoke fast as if he was a seasoned pilot instead of a student, but I couldn’t understand what he’d just said. I said to my instructor, “I wish I could handle the radio that well” to which he replied, “that’s crap. You should never talk so fast that you can’t be understood.” Just then the ground controller said, “aircraft calling ground, say again your request.” Bill repeated in his machine-gun way. The controller then said, “if you don’t slow down so that I can understand you, you aren’t going anywhere today. Try it again, slower.” It was a good lesson for me. Since that time, almost 48 years ago, I’ve asked ATC many times to slow down. Probably the funniest was a very late night departure from KAPA (Centennial near Denver) after an all day Angel Flight to and from Killeen, TX. There were no other airplanes, but the sole ground/tower controller rattled off my IFR clearance so fast that I couldn’t get much of it. So I said, “Ma’am, I’ve been in the air 11 hours today, I’m tired, and I can’t think nearly as fast as you’re speaking. Please run that by again, slower.” She did. Then when it came time to taxi, she read the taxi clearance really slowly and asked, “Is that slow enough for you?” “Yes ma’am, I got it, thank you” and then read it back to her and thanked her again for her understanding. After she had cleared me for take off and gave me the departure frequency again, she said something like, “you have a nice flight-and try to get a good night’s sleep tonight.” I thanked her again before switching to departure. Part of the lesson here, besides the need to slow down when speaking, is that asking that the other person slow down can be done politely and diplomatically, which results in a pleasant experience for both. Granted that our “discussion” was a whole lot more than the AIM or controller’s manual says we should be saying, it didn’t tie up the airwaves unnecessarily under the circumstances, there being no other aircraft in the area at that hour.
Great video, I will generally monitor frequencies of airspace that I am going near. If that controller has a pointout that I think is me, I will chime in with a position report and traffic in sight. Good note on the phraseology for "speak slower", I will have to remember that one. I almost couldn't understand your takeoff clearance. It could be a good action to come back with a question "Was that a takeoff clearance for xxxRA?, speak slower please"
Great video as always! Based on youtube's videos only, I've heard sometimes that in the U.S. the ATC do not use standard ICAO phraseology. What do you think about that? a PPL student from Europe
They don’t. Well not in the southern states anyway. I am a UK PPL who has just returned from Atlanta after 3 years. More than once I have tried to announce ‘inbound’ only for the controllers and a buddy pilot having a general chinwag on air. Also there are some actual defined differences. ‘Join 45’, ‘ you have the option’ , pattern, for example. Also some rule differences. We cannot enter controlled airspace until given explicit permission in the USA as soon as you have initiated 2 way comms you basically have permission. So if you radio ‘inbound 10 miles from the North’ and the controller acknowledges then you can enter.
Not much has changed. I remember as a student pilot in the '80's, asking ATC/Tower to say again/slow down. I didn't hear fast then and, at 75, I won't hear fast now. Thanks for sharing.
WOW, I did the same on a trip from Monroe, LA to Waco, TX flying over Barksdale AFB above the airspace, but contacted approach anyway because a B-52 would put a big dent in a 182!!
(I'm a controller and a flight instructor. These are my own views, not official FAA...) By all means, tell ATC to slow down. As an ATC instructor, I tell it to my trainees all the time.
Thank you, Jason, for mentioning the reason for using Bluetooth. I was wondering why I was seeing this equipment capability when looking at headsets recently (I've been out of the skies for a few years).
Fast talking controllers have always been my pet peeve. It's like the old saying, "if you don't have time to do the job right, then do you have time to do it over?" Likewise, with controllers. When you are in a big hurry as a controller, you might just as well expect to repeat yourself twice, maybe even 3 times. So talking fast doesn't speed things along. It can actually slow things down by having to repeat everything. Not all pilots are at the same levels of radio work. So, Yes, don't be afraid to ask for a repeat or a slow down.
Three things that struck me: A: Yes, that guy was talking way too fast. I'm a retired controller who spent 25 years at ZAU working arrival traffic into ORD. I never had to speak that fast and I don't recall anyone ever asking me to slow down. 2: I'm pretty sure he said "frequency change approved leaving ... airspace." And, you acknowledged it. III: I would have considered blindly mentioning on frequency that you would look for the inbound. Unnumbered, there was nothing there worthy of an incident report or a complaint to the facility. I spent more than a year in our Quality Assurance Office, and dealt specifically with incidents, reported incidents, and incidents that weren't.
I don't know how your departure worked and if TWR knew you were departing via Coyote Hills or not but did he even advise the inbound traffic there was an opposite direction departure?
I've experienced similar multiple times. Even when I'm just outside airspace I continue to monitor the freq when able just in case. It's come in handy for me many times. I've had times when ATC would try to alert another aircraft of my presence, but neither ATC nor the other aircraft were certain of my position. In those cases I'll jump back on the air and let ATC know I'm still monitoring and give them my position or other relevant information for the given situation.
A number of Airports where I live have the following in their plates: "More direct plain language clearances may be issued on request or in periods of low density". Basically, we want you to understand us so don't be afraid to ask. I hate it when people just blurt out their radio calls as if they're paying by the millisecond. I have used "SAY AGAIN" with ATC when I've missed something and they've always been great EDIT: Oh and generally ATC hasn't told me to change frequency, rather I've told them when I'm leaving their airspace and letting them know that I'm changing (and if Im returning when I expect to). Different country with different amount of traffic etc. but it seems to work for them here
I heard him say after frequency change approved... Outside the zone. So wouldn't that mean you still stay on his freq until you're clear? Correct me if I'm wrong but i feel you misunderstood the controller. ?
That’s an interesting point to consider. He may have meant that but either way - when he says it’s approved, I could change right then and there if I wanted to. Otherwise he’d say “frequency change approved clear of the delta”
@@TheFinerPoints Technically don't you have to have communication with ATC if you are in his space? So while he said it was approved, he didn't say do it... but... he does seem like he is just being a little complacent/sloppy -- that could hurt someone. Oh.. and i'll just hang out and wait for the attacks for this one, because I bet they are coming.
I recently returned to the UK after 3 years in Atlanta GA. I loved flying in the States but really hated ATC. Not the people, nothing against folk I have never met, but the tempo added such a layer of tension and concern. I get it at JFK or similar but provincial airports. Add in the Southern accents and I often had to ask for instructions to be repeated, or progressive taxi. I would say 50% of the time that wasn’t met very positively. Remember guys sometimes the person in the cockpit isn’t a local, national, or often not a native English speaker. So please understand if asked for clarity or to slow down they are not ‘stupid’. After all they had enough intelligence to pass aviation exams and check rides.
It's a judgement call, but I generally err on the side of caution and give ATC a call. If they're talking about me, e.g. passing me as traffic to somebody else I'll definitely give them a call and let them know my intentions. A radio that can monitor other frequencies is always handy. "WHG, are you still on frequency?"
Perfect example of what I do in our practice area. "Tower, 123AB, Just letting you know we're going to the practice area, and we will stay on frequency"
He speaks way too fast...he probably needs to keep in mind that there is a bunch of foreign pilots flying in the US too...not easy when it s not your mother tongue. But I agree I always keep my radio sets so that I m continuously having the best situational awareness and in this case, I d stay with tower until clear of the Delta or even after leaving the delta airspace. Jason let me tell you one thing: you re an amazing instructor and I wish I had you during my PPL training. You deserve your award of being the best CFI.
Here in the UK, thet can only issue a maximum of 3 instructions all delivered at a normal pace & intonation. Over the years of flying into & in the US i have found the US controllers always speak very fast. The worst for me was in NYC with that accent as well when flying out of Westchester just after 9-11. Scared the hell out of me as a British trained ppl. Even my instructor was surprised. I think they were still very jumpy.
Over my time as an aviator, I have found that most controllers are professional and speak in that manner. When it gets busy, they tend to speed up, which is normal, but that is to be expected. However, this person that you were dealing with was quite unprofessional, in my opinion. I mean, what was his point? The only time I have been told to change frequencies while taking off out of a Class D airport is if I have requested flight following before hand or are being handed off to Departure Control on an IFR flight. Otherwise, I remain in contact until at least clear of the Class D airspace, as it should be. When I was in the Navy, I used to fly out of NAS Moffett Field when it was still a Navy base, back when the Class B was still called a "TCA". Yes, that little base with the blimp hangars that is located just to your south. I used to fly in the Bay Area in rented aircraft from the Navy Flying Club, so I am very familiar with the area. Our military controllers never did this, as far as I can remember. I'm sure they would have had their butts chewed out by a ranking officer if they had. I've never had a problem with Bay Departure and Approach controllers speaking this quickly. Whether it was on approach or talking to SFO or SJC or any of the other tower controllers, etc, I'd never had an issue with someone talking that fast. Fast forward to present day. I live in Denver now and own and fly a Grumman based at a local airport near Denver International. Again, the controllers here are very professional. Even when speaking to Denver Departure, Approach or Center, they speak quickly, but clearly. Not sure what that person was trying to prove, but if it were me, I would have called the tower to speak to the supervisor about it. Perhaps a little remedial training is in order. He may think it's funny, but It's not... lives are depending on him to properly communicate. Fly safe and fly often.
I have found... the best way to get ATC to slow down their talking speed... is... simply to say.. “Son, I’m from a slow hearing part of this country... I... SURE... WOULD... APPRECIATE.... IT.... IF... YOU... WOULD... SLOW... IT... DOWN... A... BIT... (in a southern accent - even though I’m from Seattle) I find humor won’t insult them... and, I have always received a laugh in return... (for the record, I respect and would love to be one of the people of Texas 🤞)
Atc's job is to help establish safe flight through transitioning airspace. Flying between Fullerton and San Diego I'll make a controller repeat at least three times until they figure it out.
grounded Noob here but I knew there's a phrase to tell ATC to talk slower. it's even the minus button on the keyboard fgs. Time to replace ATC with AI. no hicks/hickups, speech the speed you want EVERYtime with printed txt on the screen or as I want to see, HUD implemented like airforce pilots have so there's ground directions. The ATC guys only have to speak the word, AI can double chk to ensure there's no problem and does the rest, pilot double clicks / taps button to acknowledge. Things will get done faster too.
Also, if ATC doesn't give you, "Frequency Change Approved" that once you are out of their airspace you can change your frequency and don't have to ask. I've heard pilots once out of Class D airspace ask if they can change frequency and the controller says, "once you are out of my airspace you can do whatever you want" (paraphrasing).
Thank you. I have four and one half hours of flight training this a big problem for Nube Dudes like myself that have problems with runtogethersentescessethanksdon'tmakeanysenseanditblowsmyageddrugaddeedmind. DSW KJZI
Asking ATC to speak slower, proactively, is much better than missing an instruction because you can't understand them. We've all heard a controller get irritated because someone didn't read back an instruction properly. Better in my opinion to circumvent that tendency, just as we would when we announce a student pilot, or unfamiliar with airport or area.
That's another reason why I can't uderstand why ADS-B [IN] wasn't made Mandatory. Add an ORAL warning so when you are on a collision course you get an alert but don't have to Continually keep watching with your head down in the cockpit & not on a swivle.
Helpful hint. Subliminal advertising. Spent years on the fireground on the air. My primary responsibility as fire captain was the safety of my crew. We get lost in habits and routine communications. When I keyed up in the middle of critical communications, I'd slow a wee bit and revert to my radio announcers voice. It rubbed off...every time.
this has happened to me also at SQL. One airplane coming from HWD crossing San Mateo bridge midspan, one departed PAO crossing midspan and one coming from Coyote Hills. Three occurrences SINCE SQL tower has been giving me freq change approved before leaving their airspace. I always reply, “SQL tower, 123AC Will stay with you to Coyote Hills”. Then I monitor 125.35.
I am one who really needs to have ATC slow down. There are times that i am guessing what the atc said. Anticipation and guessing got me right 80% but the 20%missing or mistaken, that could be potentially deadly. The most annoying part. the atc said so many things so fast only to get the wrong aircraft callsign. Imagine the confusion over a class b airspace with both commercial and training flights all over the TMA
I’m a retired controller and a current corporate pilot......sorry.... but you are WRONG! A Class D tower controller is NOT responsible to separate you from other aircraft. He is ONLY responsible for runway separation. You are VFR.....you are required to see and avoid. Yes, maybe he should have given you a traffic advisory, but that is only contingent upon his higher priority duties, which again is runway separation. While I don’t know exactly how busy this controller may have been at the time, he cannot devote all of his attention to aircraft leaving the pattern. Too many VFR pilots are complacent and believe they are receiving separation services from ATC. This is true only while operating inside Class B airspace (and to a limited extent Class C). You must see and avoid. Even when receiving radar advisories, the controllers priority is the separation of IFR aircraft. He will give you advisories only when his higher priority duties are fulfilled. As for controllers speaking too fast, yes this can be a problem. I used to tell my trainees that you can say it twice fast, or once slow. You are the PIC. You’re the one actually in control. Never accept something from ATC that you don’t understand, believe is unsafe, or you are unable to do.
I love that you pointed out that 'speak slower' is actual phraseology. As far as iPads and Bose headsets..it's DC's and paper charts for me, thanks... haha.
The Tower Controllers have absolutely no charter to separate planes in the air. Their only responsibility is to separate planes on the runway. If 15 planes collided together near San Carlos Airport, the Tower Controllers would say - not our responsibility! Jason’s statement on this is incorrect. It is important to understand responsibilities.
That’s wrong, tower would care a lot. It’s their primary purpose. But just to be sure, I checked with some controllers. They said the following comes straight from their “bible” 7110.65: 2-1-1 ATC SERVICE a. The primary purpose of the ATC system is to prevent a collision involving aircraft operating in the system. b. In addition to its primary purpose, the ATC system also: 1. Provides a safe, orderly, and expeditious flow of air traffic. The Tower position in class, Delta Airspace, (and any other Airspace in which it is working) has a primary directive of preventing collisions, whether on the ground or in their Airspace.
@@TheFinerPoints Purpose and responsibility are not the same. Did not see R word. That’s what counts… Only the PIC (sees & avoid) is responsible for separation in Class D or pattern. I enjoy your videos immensely. Keep up the fine work.
That ATC is talking faster than the New York TRACCON or any of the 3 major airports in the New York metropolitan area... I can barely make out what he was saying...
“Frequency change approved” doesn’t mean “vacate this frequency immediately.” Seems kind of like making a mountain out of a molehill (or posting a TH-cam video to make a flight tax deductible as a business expense when there’s really no content). If you don’t want to change frequencies yet, don’t do it. If you had and there was a separation issue he could have vectored someone around you. Maybe he was trying to do you a favor by letting you change frequencies at your discretion. Did you forget that you’re VFR and it’s YOUR responsibility to “see and avoid” traffic, not his?!
I usually like your videos but you came off very arrogant on this one. Everyone makes mistakes. Why wouldn’t you turn this into a learning for the controller. Point out that your still in his airspace. Yet you immediately read back what he said, “Freq change approved.” You failed as a pilot and could’ve caused unneeded stress and distraction on the controller by playing along to see what happened. Please rethink this one. Don’t get cocky.
Fast talking controller? ICAO says you can use 'speak slower' or even 'words twice", but you won't be making friends that day. And for a frequency change well before the boundary of the airspace? I would reply with: "unable to comply, still within controlled airspace, remaining on frequency". There, easy solutions.
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Controller (Houston Center) & pilot here. You can definitely tell us as ATC to slow down. The busier we get, the faster we tend to talk. My trainer actually used to say “slow down to speed up”. It’s so true. If you’re constantly having to repeat yourself or you’re being misunderstood, it ends up putting you more down the crapper!
Another good saying in the same vein is: "Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast."
Bingo! When I start to get a bit flustered my speech picks up so god damn much.
Slow is fast brother, same goes for the cockpit!
Seriously. Festina Lente is a concept that will change the whole way you live.
"Say again, slower please" works great in my experience. I've used that line many times and ATC never responded in a negative way. I work with them every day... They truly want their communications to be understood!
Consider separating the two phrases into FAST and slow, eg... "Say'gen...s l o w e r ... p l e a s e". First half rapid, second half more appropriate speed. Old police/fire/ems dispatch technique. I try and make the other guy feel like it's my fault for not being able to "hear fast enough", rather than he's "Talking too fast".
Then of course, release the PTT and start cussing out the other guy.
Did I mention release the PTT?
Say to ATC: "I wish I was flying as fast as you're talking!." Has worked for me in the past.....
Username checks out!
@@Juhujalp HAHAHAHA
It's in the Pilot/ATC official phraseology book: "Speak slower". It's ok to use.
Second hand story: Older gentleman from the South said, "Y'all hear how slow I talk? That's how slow I listen."
see post above. Ya'all got Dat? DSW KJZI JLDR
I was a navy flight officer for 18 years and I'm now a part 91 chauffeur. I have always known that my safety, my passengers safety and the safety of my aircraft was totally my responsibility. I know you feel the same way. You knew the frequency change was not safe and you did what was right. Very teachable moment. Thanks for a great video and be safe.
PS: My daughter is a ATC in the Houston area and she totally agrees.
This is one of your best videos for a Student or New pilot. Never, Ever just do what ATC requests without question. I fly out of KMYF in San Diego which has parallel runways (28R and 28L). KMYF is also a training site for ATC controllers. I requested a take off with a departure to the east. Typically that's a departure on the right with a right down wind to the east. Ground put me on the left runway. So OK....cleared for take off on the left with a 172 also cleared on the parallel (right). I'm climbing out and ATC clears me for a right cross wind. Well I had a good instructor. she always stressed to clear your turn. Well guess what if I had made that turn to the right as instructed, I wouldn't be writing this to you. Right off my right is that Cessna that just took off on the right runway.
And yes....I have asked ATC to repeat slower several times. I ask questions of ATC. I have asked for setups to runways, I have questioned altitudes, I have asked about traffic etc. Heres another one....You will get a traffic alert either in haze or you might be flying into the sun and the traffic is at your 12 o'clock. I tell ATC....I let them know I cant see this traffic we'll....I ask them to keep an eye out for me. In Southern California, I have never had a controller not help.
Again great video on ATC and what can happen. As pilots it might not be our fault, but it is our responsibility!
That's encouraging to hear about telling ATC to slow down. If I ever decided to get a pilot's license, talking on the radio would be my biggest anxiety because they always seem to go so fast. Hell I have a hard time understanding people over the phone sometimes.
I wear my AirPods under my headset for the sole purpose of the foreflight alerts. I've been doing this for about 2 months and it's been a game changer for me. I usually get the alerts and identify the traffic out the window before being advised by ATC of the traffic. Love the content Jason!
Last year I found myself doing the same thing - I fly out of a class D airport and have been doing it for so long that I was the one talking way too fast partially because it had become so routine. This, I think, was a form of complacency, something I try to recognize I myself, not always successfully. I have since slowed way down both at home base and at other airports. I joined the Civil Air Patrol and they have encouraged me to slow down even more - reading lats and longs in particular requires what seemed to me at first to be glacially slow pace, but it is actually a time saver as there are seldom requests for a repeat.
I couldn't agree more. It was never taught to me, but I've always thought intuitively that it's wise to at least monitor the CTAF or tower frequency if you're operating near an airport. Especially if you're on a long XC. It gives you something to do!
had my first lesson today and I fn nailed it thanks to your channel. love from Poland
Did you make an ASRS report? It seems like a worthwhile one in this case. Not because of the fast talking alone, but because of the fast talking plus frequency change plus oncoming traffic.
he’s VFR in class D, the controller was perfectly legal just not particularly helpful. I actually get this sort of thing quite often, sometimes the controller will come back and ask if I’m still monitoring and gives me traffic info or I switch to flight information
That's the reason I filed IFR almost always ... When I was on IFR and got a Freq change. didn't have flip flop radios back in the day I would set the new Erwq in the other radio and keep the Head phones on bot radios. But the I can watch 3 TV stations at the same time.
Love your vids keep'em comin
Good point/video: Jason
Definitively happened to me many times. Controller tell you, you can change freq. and even try to contact you there if by any chances you're still on the line. I always keep and monitor the tower frequency on com2 for at least the double of the class exit distance (let s say here: Coyote Hills-which is a major report point for pilot) Of course if equipment/time/workload permits in VFR. IFR is out of the story since ATC will take you as soon as the tower will handle off (if my knowledge is accurate)
(still an IFR student).
Why not continue flight following with NCT? They would have given you a traffic call/alert on the inbound traffic.
Flight following is workload permitting. So he may not be able to pickup flight following in time if getting flight following setup is low on his priority list when he's dealing with lots of other traffic.
I have the same issue with controllers cancelling my VFR flight following for me when I'm descending into an airport below a Class C shelf, and have to descend through it to reach the airport.
It's the same thing. Technically legal, not necessarily safe. Great video👍🏼
Some newer radios allow you to monitor the standby frequency. Even if I'm not actively communicating with near-by controlled airspace, I'm monitoring it on standby whenever I can.
I actually learned the “speak slower” thing as a brand new student in 1972. My CFI and I had just started the engine and turned on the radio when we heard one of the other students, Bill, call Elmendorf AFB ground for taxi-and he spoke fast as if he was a seasoned pilot instead of a student, but I couldn’t understand what he’d just said. I said to my instructor, “I wish I could handle the radio that well” to which he replied, “that’s crap. You should never talk so fast that you can’t be understood.” Just then the ground controller said, “aircraft calling ground, say again your request.” Bill repeated in his machine-gun way. The controller then said, “if you don’t slow down so that I can understand you, you aren’t going anywhere today. Try it again, slower.”
It was a good lesson for me. Since that time, almost 48 years ago, I’ve asked ATC many times to slow down. Probably the funniest was a very late night departure from KAPA (Centennial near Denver) after an all day Angel Flight to and from Killeen, TX. There were no other airplanes, but the sole ground/tower controller rattled off my IFR clearance so fast that I couldn’t get much of it. So I said, “Ma’am, I’ve been in the air 11 hours today, I’m tired, and I can’t think nearly as fast as you’re speaking. Please run that by again, slower.” She did. Then when it came time to taxi, she read the taxi clearance really slowly and asked, “Is that slow enough for you?” “Yes ma’am, I got it, thank you” and then read it back to her and thanked her again for her understanding. After she had cleared me for take off and gave me the departure frequency again, she said something like, “you have a nice flight-and try to get a good night’s sleep tonight.” I thanked her again before switching to departure.
Part of the lesson here, besides the need to slow down when speaking, is that asking that the other person slow down can be done politely and diplomatically, which results in a pleasant experience for both. Granted that our “discussion” was a whole lot more than the AIM or controller’s manual says we should be saying, it didn’t tie up the airwaves unnecessarily under the circumstances, there being no other aircraft in the area at that hour.
Great video, I will generally monitor frequencies of airspace that I am going near. If that controller has a pointout that I think is me, I will chime in with a position report and traffic in sight. Good note on the phraseology for "speak slower", I will have to remember that one. I almost couldn't understand your takeoff clearance. It could be a good action to come back with a question "Was that a takeoff clearance for xxxRA?, speak slower please"
Jason, i like your videos. How can i hire you to teach me flying? Thanks
Thanks, Jason! Always informative. Loved the outro music.
Great video as always! Based on youtube's videos only, I've heard sometimes that in the U.S. the ATC do not use standard ICAO phraseology. What do you think about that?
a PPL student from Europe
They don’t. Well not in the southern states anyway. I am a UK PPL who has just returned from Atlanta after 3 years. More than once I have tried to announce ‘inbound’ only for the controllers and a buddy pilot having a general chinwag on air. Also there are some actual defined differences. ‘Join 45’, ‘ you have the option’ , pattern, for example. Also some rule differences. We cannot enter controlled airspace until given explicit permission in the USA as soon as you have initiated 2 way comms you basically have permission. So if you radio ‘inbound 10 miles from the North’ and the controller acknowledges then you can enter.
Not much has changed. I remember as a student pilot in the '80's, asking ATC/Tower to say again/slow down.
I didn't hear fast then and, at 75, I won't hear fast now.
Thanks for sharing.
WOW, I did the same on a trip from Monroe, LA to Waco, TX flying over Barksdale AFB above the airspace, but contacted approach anyway because a B-52 would put a big dent in a 182!!
Always better to be sure
The Finer Points
No doubt, great pointers...
You going to 1K1 next month?
Always wondered if it was ok to tell ATC to slow down. Great video Jason thanks.
(I'm a controller and a flight instructor. These are my own views, not official FAA...) By all means, tell ATC to slow down. As an ATC instructor, I tell it to my trainees all the time.
Great lesson and, as always, great music! Thanks.
Thank you, Jason, for mentioning the reason for using Bluetooth. I was wondering why I was seeing this equipment capability when looking at headsets recently (I've been out of the skies for a few years).
Fast talking controllers have always been my pet peeve. It's like the old saying, "if you don't have time to do the job right, then do you have time to do it over?" Likewise, with controllers. When you are in a big hurry as a controller, you might just as well expect to repeat yourself twice, maybe even 3 times. So talking fast doesn't speed things along. It can actually slow things down by having to repeat everything. Not all pilots are at the same levels of radio work. So, Yes, don't be afraid to ask for a repeat or a slow down.
Thanks for the tip ... will definitely keep that it mind .... 😎
Great and timely video, thank you. As a student pilot this is a great lesson for me. 👍🏻👍🏻
Great to hear that. It’s good learning for all
Wow, thanks for sharing this! Great info.
Three things that struck me:
A: Yes, that guy was talking way too fast. I'm a retired controller who spent 25 years at ZAU working arrival traffic into ORD. I never had to speak that fast and I don't recall anyone ever asking me to slow down.
2: I'm pretty sure he said "frequency change approved leaving ... airspace." And, you acknowledged it.
III: I would have considered blindly mentioning on frequency that you would look for the inbound.
Unnumbered, there was nothing there worthy of an incident report or a complaint to the facility. I spent more than a year in our Quality Assurance Office, and dealt specifically with incidents, reported incidents, and incidents that weren't.
I don't know how your departure worked and if TWR knew you were departing via Coyote Hills or not but did he even advise the inbound traffic there was an opposite direction departure?
Nice video and learning points....👍🏻
I've experienced similar multiple times. Even when I'm just outside airspace I continue to monitor the freq when able just in case. It's come in handy for me many times. I've had times when ATC would try to alert another aircraft of my presence, but neither ATC nor the other aircraft were certain of my position. In those cases I'll jump back on the air and let ATC know I'm still monitoring and give them my position or other relevant information for the given situation.
A number of Airports where I live have the following in their plates: "More direct plain language clearances may be issued on request or in periods of low density". Basically, we want you to understand us so don't be afraid to ask. I hate it when people just blurt out their radio calls as if they're paying by the millisecond. I have used "SAY AGAIN" with ATC when I've missed something and they've always been great
EDIT: Oh and generally ATC hasn't told me to change frequency, rather I've told them when I'm leaving their airspace and letting them know that I'm changing (and if Im returning when I expect to). Different country with different amount of traffic etc. but it seems to work for them here
Good stuff Jason!!
Thx 🙌
I heard him say after frequency change approved... Outside the zone. So wouldn't that mean you still stay on his freq until you're clear? Correct me if I'm wrong but i feel you misunderstood the controller. ?
That’s an interesting point to consider. He may have meant that but either way - when he says it’s approved, I could change right then and there if I wanted to. Otherwise he’d say “frequency change approved clear of the delta”
@@TheFinerPoints Technically don't you have to have communication with ATC if you are in his space? So while he said it was approved, he didn't say do it... but... he does seem like he is just being a little complacent/sloppy -- that could hurt someone.
Oh.. and i'll just hang out and wait for the attacks for this one, because I bet they are coming.
I recently returned to the UK after 3 years in Atlanta GA. I loved flying in the States but really hated ATC. Not the people, nothing against folk I have never met, but the tempo added such a layer of tension and concern. I get it at JFK or similar but provincial airports. Add in the Southern accents and I often had to ask for instructions to be repeated, or progressive taxi. I would say 50% of the time that wasn’t met very positively. Remember guys sometimes the person in the cockpit isn’t a local, national, or often not a native English speaker. So please understand if asked for clarity or to slow down they are not ‘stupid’. After all they had enough intelligence to pass aviation exams and check rides.
It's a judgement call, but I generally err on the side of caution and give ATC a call. If they're talking about me, e.g. passing me as traffic to somebody else I'll definitely give them a call and let them know my intentions. A radio that can monitor other frequencies is always handy. "WHG, are you still on frequency?"
That was helpful thanks
Perfect example of what I do in our practice area. "Tower, 123AB, Just letting you know we're going to the practice area, and we will stay on frequency"
In UK we have SAY SLOW and WORDS TWICE in standard phraseology. Luckily I had no problem with fast speaking ATC so far.
He speaks way too fast...he probably needs to keep in mind that there is a bunch of foreign pilots flying in the US too...not easy when it s not your mother tongue.
But I agree I always keep my radio sets so that I m continuously having the best situational awareness and in this case, I d stay with tower until clear of the Delta or even after leaving the delta airspace.
Jason let me tell you one thing: you re an amazing instructor and I wish I had you during my PPL training. You deserve your award of being the best CFI.
Here in the UK, thet can only issue a maximum of 3 instructions all delivered at a normal pace & intonation.
Over the years of flying into & in the US i have found the US controllers always speak very fast.
The worst for me was in NYC with that accent as well when flying out of Westchester just after 9-11.
Scared the hell out of me as a British trained ppl.
Even my instructor was surprised.
I think they were still very jumpy.
Over my time as an aviator, I have found that most controllers are professional and speak in that manner. When it gets busy, they tend to speed up, which is normal, but that is to be expected. However, this person that you were dealing with was quite unprofessional, in my opinion. I mean, what was his point? The only time I have been told to change frequencies while taking off out of a Class D airport is if I have requested flight following before hand or are being handed off to Departure Control on an IFR flight. Otherwise, I remain in contact until at least clear of the Class D airspace, as it should be.
When I was in the Navy, I used to fly out of NAS Moffett Field when it was still a Navy base, back when the Class B was still called a "TCA". Yes, that little base with the blimp hangars that is located just to your south. I used to fly in the Bay Area in rented aircraft from the Navy Flying Club, so I am very familiar with the area. Our military controllers never did this, as far as I can remember. I'm sure they would have had their butts chewed out by a ranking officer if they had. I've never had a problem with Bay Departure and Approach controllers speaking this quickly. Whether it was on approach or talking to SFO or SJC or any of the other tower controllers, etc, I'd never had an issue with someone talking that fast.
Fast forward to present day. I live in Denver now and own and fly a Grumman based at a local airport near Denver International. Again, the controllers here are very professional. Even when speaking to Denver Departure, Approach or Center, they speak quickly, but clearly. Not sure what that person was trying to prove, but if it were me, I would have called the tower to speak to the supervisor about it. Perhaps a little remedial training is in order. He may think it's funny, but It's not... lives are depending on him to properly communicate.
Fly safe and fly often.
I have found... the best way to get ATC to slow down their talking speed... is... simply to say.. “Son, I’m from a slow hearing part of this country... I... SURE... WOULD... APPRECIATE.... IT.... IF... YOU... WOULD... SLOW... IT... DOWN... A... BIT... (in a southern accent - even though I’m from Seattle) I find humor won’t insult them... and, I have always received a laugh in return... (for the record, I respect and would love to be one of the people of Texas 🤞)
Atc's job is to help establish safe flight through transitioning airspace. Flying between Fullerton and San Diego I'll make a controller repeat at least three times until they figure it out.
grounded Noob here but I knew there's a phrase to tell ATC to talk slower. it's even the minus button on the keyboard fgs. Time to replace ATC with AI. no hicks/hickups, speech the speed you want EVERYtime with printed txt on the screen or as I want to see, HUD implemented like airforce pilots have so there's ground directions. The ATC guys only have to speak the word, AI can double chk to ensure there's no problem and does the rest, pilot double clicks / taps button to acknowledge. Things will get done faster too.
Also, if ATC doesn't give you, "Frequency Change Approved" that once you are out of their airspace you can change your frequency and don't have to ask. I've heard pilots once out of Class D airspace ask if they can change frequency and the controller says, "once you are out of my airspace you can do whatever you want" (paraphrasing).
It is good to chime in and notify them you're changing, but don't make it a question
Thank you. I have four and one half hours of flight training this a big problem for Nube Dudes like myself that have problems with runtogethersentescessethanksdon'tmakeanysenseanditblowsmyageddrugaddeedmind. DSW KJZI
Asking ATC to speak slower, proactively, is much better than missing an instruction because you can't understand them. We've all heard a controller get irritated because someone didn't read back an instruction properly. Better in my opinion to circumvent that tendency, just as we would when we announce a student pilot, or unfamiliar with airport or area.
The words “say again” have the same effect. Say again, that went by me too fast. Works every time
I remember using "say again" with someone like that and then the guy purposely going super slow, but most controllers are good people
Especially when you do it three rimes
That's another reason why I can't uderstand why ADS-B [IN] wasn't made Mandatory. Add an ORAL warning so when you are on a collision course you get an alert but don't have to Continually keep watching with your head down in the cockpit & not on a swivle.
He’s allowed to contact you on dep freq in case of emergency.
Helpful hint. Subliminal advertising. Spent years on the fireground on the air. My primary responsibility as fire captain was the safety of my crew.
We get lost in habits and routine communications. When I keyed up in the middle of critical communications, I'd slow a wee bit and revert to my radio announcers voice. It rubbed off...every time.
Jason Miller do a cross wind landing with a cross wind of 90 knots in your next video please asap!!!!!!!
Where can we get one of those cool hats?
Working on that 😊
Adding to my phraseology “Say again, Say Slower”!
this has happened to me also at SQL. One airplane coming from HWD crossing San Mateo bridge midspan, one departed PAO crossing midspan and one coming from Coyote Hills. Three occurrences SINCE SQL tower has been giving me freq change approved before leaving their airspace.
I always reply, “SQL tower, 123AC Will stay with you to Coyote Hills”. Then I monitor 125.35.
Smart plan
You guys at SQL are unlucky to have this kind of service. The PAO controllers are usually much better.
I am one who really needs to have ATC slow down. There are times that i am guessing what the atc said. Anticipation and guessing got me right 80% but the 20%missing or mistaken, that could be potentially deadly. The most annoying part. the atc said so many things so fast only to get the wrong aircraft callsign. Imagine the confusion over a class b airspace with both commercial and training flights all over the TMA
I’m a retired controller and a current corporate pilot......sorry.... but you are WRONG! A Class D tower controller is NOT responsible to separate you from other aircraft. He is ONLY responsible for runway separation. You are VFR.....you are required to see and avoid. Yes, maybe he should have given you a traffic advisory, but that is only contingent upon his higher priority duties, which again is runway separation. While I don’t know exactly how busy this controller may have been at the time, he cannot devote all of his attention to aircraft leaving the pattern. Too many VFR pilots are complacent and believe they are receiving separation services from ATC. This is true only while operating inside Class B airspace (and to a limited extent Class C). You must see and avoid. Even when receiving radar advisories, the controllers priority is the separation of IFR aircraft. He will give you advisories only when his higher priority duties are fulfilled. As for controllers speaking too fast, yes this can be a problem. I used to tell my trainees that you can say it twice fast, or once slow. You are the PIC. You’re the one actually in control. Never accept something from ATC that you don’t understand, believe is unsafe, or you are unable to do.
HEAR HEAR EXACTLY
I love that you pointed out that 'speak slower' is actual phraseology. As far as iPads and Bose headsets..it's DC's and paper charts for me, thanks... haha.
Did u file an ASRS report? Contact the tower manager? Either or both would perhaps make good videos.
The Tower Controllers have absolutely no charter to separate planes in the air. Their only responsibility is to separate planes on the runway. If 15 planes collided together near San Carlos Airport, the Tower Controllers would say - not our responsibility! Jason’s statement on this is incorrect. It is important to understand responsibilities.
That’s wrong, tower would care a lot. It’s their primary purpose. But just to be sure, I checked with some controllers. They said the following comes straight from their “bible” 7110.65:
2-1-1 ATC SERVICE
a. The primary purpose of the ATC system is to prevent a collision involving aircraft operating in the system.
b. In addition to its primary purpose, the ATC system also:
1. Provides a safe, orderly, and expeditious flow of air traffic.
The Tower position in class, Delta Airspace, (and any other Airspace in which it is working) has a primary directive of preventing collisions, whether on the ground or in their Airspace.
@@TheFinerPoints Purpose and responsibility are not the same. Did not see R word. That’s what counts… Only the PIC (sees & avoid) is responsible for separation in Class D or pattern. I enjoy your videos immensely. Keep up the fine work.
That ATC is talking faster than the New York TRACCON or any of the 3 major airports in the New York metropolitan area... I can barely make out what he was saying...
you know shit is about to go down when you start rap battling atc
Did he ever at least give the Bonanza a traffic alert for you?
I was wondering essentially that: what happened next? Did he say something to tower or the incoming aircraft?
@@greyhavner5388 more importantly, did the tower say something to the incoming aircraft.
Here’s another occupation that should be taken out of the government
I just ask them to “say again” and that slows them down.
He probably thought you were going to tracon
Been there done that! No shame. Until I say something nice and uplifting to a not busy Class D controller and she says nothing back.. :(
“Frequency change approved” doesn’t mean “vacate this frequency immediately.” Seems kind of like making a mountain out of a molehill (or posting a TH-cam video to make a flight tax deductible as a business expense when there’s really no content).
If you don’t want to change frequencies yet, don’t do it. If you had and there was a separation issue he could have vectored someone around you. Maybe he was trying to do you a favor by letting you change frequencies at your discretion.
Did you forget that you’re VFR and it’s YOUR responsibility to “see and avoid” traffic, not his?!
YESSSSSSSSSS
Speak slower! Yeah I’m gonna have to use that one day
I usually like your videos but you came off very arrogant on this one. Everyone makes mistakes. Why wouldn’t you turn this into a learning for the controller. Point out that your still in his airspace. Yet you immediately read back what he said, “Freq change approved.” You failed as a pilot and could’ve caused unneeded stress and distraction on the controller by playing along to see what happened. Please rethink this one. Don’t get cocky.
ATC is going to hell. Most of the experience guys had to retire and the new ones aren’t all that.
Fast talking controller?
ICAO says you can use 'speak slower' or even 'words twice", but you won't be making friends that day.
And for a frequency change well before the boundary of the airspace?
I would reply with: "unable to comply, still within controlled airspace, remaining on frequency".
There, easy solutions.