I think it's because the planning and pattern recognition in shmups is "invisible" to players below a certain skill level. Ikaruga's polarity mechanic makes it clear as day when you don't think ahead enough, but NOT the ways of planning ahead in shmups *besides* changing polarity.
Yes I think this is part of the "puzzle element" perception as well because treasure loves to make their enemy patterns and levels really geometric and square. The funny thing is that silvergun has very similar design and requires the same style of routing for the sword and power up mechanics, but I don t think I ve seen it refered to as a puzzle game yet
I agree with your “invisible” statement as a novice Shmup player. I love these games, it it is very difficult with my low skill level to see the path forward. Nothing to do but to practice and take pointers from more skilled players. Cheers!
The flow state is a meditative state. It’s accurate to say that shmups are meditative. Motorcycling is meditative because it’s so dangerous that you can’t focus on anything else while you’re riding. Lots of everyday things are meditative, including shmups.
I describe it as flow like you say, because it's often what happens when a task of high difficulty encounters someone with high skill. I don't know if it can be meditative, though. Meditation focuses on disconnecting from all thoughts and being a passive observer of reality. It's like being on a river bank and watching thoughts flow by, as opposed to seeing yourself as those thoughts. Flow can filter out other thoughts, but it does this instead by intensely focusing on one thing. Flow is holding tight with all your strength. Meditation is letting go of everything you can.
Tetris should've never been considered a puzzle game. It's an action game with puzzle aesthetics, same with Puyo & all other games of that type. What defines a puzzle? I'd argue it's being a test of logical thinking/pattern recongition with one definitive, correct solution. It's distinct from a more general "problem solving" which is an element of all games which allows for a range of viable solution with different levels of efficiency. Those so called "puzzle games"? They are games of dynamic problem solving, difficult execution & reaction times, on-the-fly decision making, planning. You have huge ranges of possible solutions of varying effectiveness and constantly changing sets of problems to tackle, all affected by your reaction times & input execution. That right there is a description ACTION GAMES. There is absolutely nothing puzzle-like about them once you get past the surface. When the foundational assumptions of a discussion are broken, nothing good will come out of it.
"Just Action Games" but without recognisable combat. I do see where you are going with the real time games since that puts a lot of them in a vice where they may not be "violent" but require twitchy responses from the player. Maybe the core is that they (usually) only have puzzle systems at play besides being real time action. You aren't platforming, but you are probably aiming or shifting something around.
@@thelastgogeta I'd call them abstract action games, almost pure mechanics. I don't think "action games' have to be tied to combat since then you're kinda focusing on how developers represent their mechanics via visuals/sound/etc., rather than the mechanics themselves. And I just don't think games like Tetris really have any puzzle systems or elements that aren't applicable to all games, the only thing typing them to that is the block/color matching aesthetics.
Bog your using your brain too much, you might need to make an appointment with nurse ratched. Clearly Tetris and TGM3 are puzzle games because they include puzzle-solving and puzzle-elements, and puzzle-design, and puzzle-thinking, and puzzle-graphics, and puzzle-action. After all, as I learned on wikipedia today, a puzzle game is a puzzle.
Great points, but to be a bit more banal and fair, you do try and slot pieces together in Tetris in an attempt to fill up empty space. So the comparison to a jigsaw puzzle is easily made. The action at the very least draws comparison to puzzling, even though the pieces are moving and there isn't a linear solution (though there is often an optimal one).
No kidding! I would say Tetris Grand Master 3 would be the perfect example of this with all its crazy techniques and stuff, but Arika made sure TGM3 won't be around to make this claim.
i'm not a very serious shmup person though i've done a good amount of dabbling. ikaruga however is incredibly cool. beyond cool. not even mechnically, but the whole presentation top to bottom. from the typeface choices to the chapter titles. it just feels awesome. i think this is the real reason the game had any breakthrough. many shmups have weak or niche themes. ikaruga is one note but it hits that note so hard. it's a complete thought.
I've referred to Ikaruga as a puzzle game in the past, in the same way that I would also describe classic character action games or RE4 as having puzzle elements. For me, it's just another way of describing the data-based, problem solving foundation of a lot of these games' mechanical systems. Basically, if I'm playing DMC3 or RE4, I'm performing a relatively high amount of on-the-fly calculations since I know that A is gonna lead to B and that I should use X in order to prevent Y so I can set up Z later on. Whereas in the GoW reboot or Uncharted, the heavy scripting and/or emphasis on randomized elements mean I'm mostly going through the motions and enjoying the passive audiovisual aspects of the gameplay. It's like a different part of my brain is being activated. I do however take your point that there should be a clear distinction between the aforementioned games and something like The Witness, obviously. I also agree that Ikaruga isn't that different from, say, Ketsui in that regard.
Yes I think using puzzle as an analogy to explain the systems of the game are fair and make sense, the sticky point is when all these reviews and discussions around the game are going from the analogy and making the case that ikaruga is literally a puzzle game. Like if I was saying silvergun is literally an rpg ha
I don't care what other people call it. I play shmups since mid 80ies (or shooters as we called them back then). No matter if horizontal, vertical, danmaku or touhou, I know one when I see one.
My take is that game journos in general derive from cinema journos, they apply the same concepts of cinema to a genre that's barely related (yes both genres are visual and audio but that's about it), thus the big emphasis on story... so when it comes to analyzation of games, especially mechanics, level design, enemy behaviors they fail miserably. Then you put them in front of a shmup, one of the genres that's farthest from cinema possible and their whole analytical framework falls apart. Very few journos will analyze a games enemy patterns, it's pacing, the enemy behaviors to a detail that can discern from a good shmup from a bad one. Then you put them in front of ikaruga which has a mechanic that's staring them in the face, so of course lacking the analytical background of understanding and even more importantly APPRECIATING the core mechanics of the genre they will emphasize this glaring mechanic, place it on a pedestal and worship it... one reason, and why i think treasure did an amazing job is that this polarization mechanic enhances the core essential mechanics of a shmup, so the uninitiated all of a sudden see (or probably feel) the core mechanics blossom while they play and thus enjoy the game for the shmup mechanics that the polarization mechanic brings to light...
Ikaruga's challenge isnt purely spatial. The player can make the bullet patterns change at any time by switching polarity. There are 2 different planes on the screen at once that the player can move between at any time. That makes it feel different and it makes my brain hurt and I suppose that is what makes it feel puzzle like. That feeling is hard to categorise and the easy route is to say "puzzle like". I've said it myself in discourse. But its a shmup alright.
I can see what you mean for sure and yes I agree on the extra dimensions. The polarity system adds a fourth dimension of gameplay that also makes my brain hurt. But where I get stubborn is that this definition of a "puzzle element" can't really just be specifically contained to ikaruga and would quickly end up extending to other shmups if not all well made shmups. For example in garegga you have to very carefully and precisely track your rank, you have route things out in very great detail and keep an constant mental tally of what your rank is up too. It's an entire new dimension of gameplay that other shmups do not have, so it rank also a "puzzle element?" or hypers, or grazing, or any of the other very specific shmup mechanics out there. It just seems really odd to me that Ikaruga is so singled out in this aspect.
I think most people associate shmups with some kind of areal combat action theme, and some people find this theme more essential for the genre than others. When the bullet patterns start looking very structured and symmetrical, as in many bullet hells, the games can feel a bit further from an action game and closer to a puzzle game. And maybe this gets into a discussion about suspension of disbelief, where some people in the audience may find certain aspects jarring and therefore removing them from the experience they had expected.
Yes I think it might be a case where people are taking a rhetorical explanation of bullet patterns being "puzzles" too literally to the point where now dodging bullets and routing is solving a puzzle ha. It s like with fighting games being compared to chess, sure there are similarities but fgc are not actually playing chess ha
It's a line. On one end you have action and on the other end you have puzzle. Ikaruga is somewhere in the middle. If you're playing the game as a pure action game, you will have a lower score than someone who recognizes the patterns and finds the best solution. The higher the score you want, the more of a puzzle it becomes.
The main thing that makes Ikaruga so difficult is that theres no fuckin pictures on the jigsaw pieces so I dont know what the fuck is going on. Nevermind if you have a yellow fuckin dog in the house that might try to bite you during the procedure.
Well now I'm convinced: every video game is actually a puzzle game. I guess that makes TGM the purest example of a video game. And kidding aside, I actually do find flow to be a form of stress relief. It's just stress relief that you find at the end of a lot of stress.
When a game has a clear objective it can be thought as a puzzle game. Like Final Fantasy, for example. But at times it’s just used as a convenient way to make the writer look smart.
Exactly Zazon, but then the issue becomes any well made game is now a puzzle game. Dark souls is a puzzle game (that is an unholy union of memes right there). So are puzzle games the apex of gaming? Like why should be bother playing shmups if the best part of the genre is the supposed "puzzle elements." And yes, in reality things have gotten this way because one writer wanted to come up with a clever angle for his review so he said ikaruga is a "twitch puzzle" or whatever and then because gaming journalists basically plagiarize each other, everyone started to repeat this take until it somehow just became accepted knowledge that ikaruga is in fact a puzzle game.
I think it's more just that problem solving is common across a lot of genres, and it's often seen as a very desirable element. Since puzzle games (in their purest form, like Sokoban) are entirely problem solving, it's really easy to conflate "involves a great deal of problem solving" with "is a puzzle".
Nobody calls Shilohette Mirage a puzzle game? Basically a similar flip mechanic, just in a platformer. It is a bit annoying that shmups get typecast so often.
I know, there are so many examples like this. Wouldn't Link to the Past be a puzzle game as well, you do flip from the light to the dark world after all and you have to do all this problem solving and routing. How is ikaruga all puzzled up but Link to the Past is an adventure game or whatever weird genre it belongs to.
Late comment Excellent analysis as usual, beyond the quality of your videos and their relevance, what I also like is that they invite discussion. Since its release in 2002 on Dreamcast (I have a Japanese Dreamcast), it remains to this day one of my favorite shoot'em up, its sublime realization as well as its original gameplay concept remains for me unmatched or at least unique. (it has been taken over since, but not with as much gusto). In addition, he has not taken the slightest wrinkle. Well done to this awesome studio that brilliantly developed innovative and unique gameplay concepts that were Treasure in the 90s until the mid-2000s.
Yes for sure that's definitely a goal of mine is to make videos where I try to present a unique take (or a relevant one at least ha) to see what my viewers think about it!
I agree that ikaruga isn't a puzzle game and I get your point but it seems to me that in a shmup there is bullet *patterns* that you have to *recognize* and that a puzzle game like tetris, at least at high level of play, you have to do a bunch of intricate input much like a shmup. Gotta be honest, sound pretty similar but i guess you could say that about any games tho.
Exactly this is that genre slope i was taking about, where ikaruga is a puzzle game, so silvergun which has very similar elements would have to qualify as well, then why not make all shmups puzzle games? Since the concept of "puzzle game" is so broad and undefined once you get put under that label there is no getting out. Link to the Past is a puzzle game ...
Thanks for the interesting topic as always Mark! I'll be sleeping in a bit. But I will totally watch this when I wake up. I'm very curious on this topic. This is one of the biggest things I think about during my marketing on Good Knight. I know our game is borderline SHMUP, but I've been having alot of success to call it a Rage Puzzler rather than bullet hell as its a hit for the weird community im having streamers/rhythm/minecraft/casual/non-bullethell/touhou/hardcore. Its extremely hard to market this one of a kind game we have.
Yes exactly! And I do think the puzzle angle of ikaruga s marketing was effective, in the case of ikaruga though in terms of actual gameplay I don t see any elements that stand out as absolutely unique and puzzle by nature. If it s the polarity mechanic then dimahoo must be a puzzle game as well ha
Radiant silvergun has been my fav shooter for years and I didn’t even know about chaining etc until recently. I would just play it like a regular shooter.
That point about slotting a shmup into some big statement instead of analyzing the actual mechanics and design is something that bugs me at times too with both shmups and fighting games. Big part of why I look to the shmup and fighting game communities for discussion and reviews on games in the genre. Looking forward to the rest of Treasure month! I'm a big Treasure fanboy and have been doing runs of Astro Boy Omega Factor this past week.
Great video! I think one of the things that really enables the idea that Ikaruga is a puzzle game is the several common elements between shmups and Tetris(/Magical Drop/Columns/Dr Mario/...)-style puzzle games: a vertical orientated/portrait playfield, objects moving from the top of the screen towards the bottom, a focus on scoring, and a frenetic pace. Without going down the "all games are puzzle games" rabbit-hole, I think there's genuinely a lot of crossover between the two genres, and that players of one can often appreciate the other. Twinkle Star Sprites is one of the few examples I can recall of a deliberate mashup between the two - if people out there have other examples though please leave recommendations!
Yes I agree that puzzle games and shmups do have a good amount of crossover appeal. But the funny thing is that the genre crossover only works one way currently. For example I could make the claim that Tetris is actually a shmup, not a puzzle game, but since shmups have more distinctive elements it s easier to discern what is a shmup and what is not. But since "puzzle game" is so vague you could put that label on a lot of shmups and it would be hard to refute.
If Ikaruga has some random spawning enemies patterns, it could be considered as a "puzzle shmup"? But with this kind of gameplay, the score ranking system would be unfair depending how lucky your run is.
@@TheElectricUnderground After getting a good understanding of normal mode; playing Ika on hard mode requires some serious rewiring of your brain. I don't know about meditative but many shmups induce a flow state.
Seen the same kinda thing happen with mecha abime. "Oh Evangelion isnt like other mecha shows because blah blah blah" I think it's just the fate of niche media
YES I’m so sick of hearing that said about mecha! “Oh _____ show is actually about the characters rather than the robots” ??? What are u even f saying ofc these shows are all character driven, whether they’re good or bad they’re all character driven when it comes down to it. What a weird non-observation that gets repeatedly made
Restricting the play field in a shooting game via blocks has been done in a very similar fashion in Air Buster. So even that gimmick wasn't treasures original idea.
the polarity thing is really elegant game design, like Katarmari Damacy - obstacles and goals condensed into a single intuitive system and duality is a concept with a lot of symbolic weight. chaining in groups of 3 feels arbitrary but I have a feeling it's similarly symbolic (thesis > antithesis > synthesis... the player alone can find the grey between black and white). imo this game resonates with people on a spiritual level, which I think explains some of the 'religious' praise it gets
I definitely agree here! There is something deeply Zen or whatever about ikaruga's design that I can see being really appealing, I just find it odd and kind of annoying that reviewers can't seem to accept that a shmup can be artistic like this. If it has these types of clever mechanics and design ... well it must be a puzzle game of course!
Defeating 3 enemies of the same color in a row is similar to connect 3 type games, so I can see where this train of thought might of started. I'd say that all shmups have puzzle elements but some rely on them more heavily than others.
HAHAHA Finally I have an excuse to share this! In the book “The Art of Game Design: A Book of Lenses” the author comes to the conclusion that a puzzle is a game with an optimal solution. As in, a “correct” path. Yes, routing does mean that an optimal path is eventually found, but unlike a Match-3 game or a jigsaw puzzle, once you find the optimal route, there is still fun to be had in getting better at doing the route. I wish to clarify: this definition in the book was focused on puzzles in games, like Skyrim symbol puzzles, not puzzle games. The longevity of puzzle games like Tetris is that non-puzzle elements (timers mostly) switch the aim from finding the correct solution into finding the best solution YOU CAN DO.
I have to admit I've been guilty in the past of calling Ikaruga a puzzle game. I still think Ikaruga has "puzzle elements" just like how Radiant Silvergun has RPG elements, but at the end of the day, it's still a shmup and is primarily about dodging and shooting things. For me a puzzle game is something like a point and click adventure - a kind of game where you would use "real world" logical reasoning/deduction to figure out the one solution to a specific part of the game or the whole game in some cases. Funnily enough Tetris has a lot more in common with action games than real life puzzles.
*gasp* !!! Well, i'll forgive you this time ;-) i think where I have trouble with the polarity mechanic being a "puzzle element" is that I think the claim is taken too far these days. Like I said in the vid if one person made a take that ikaruga's polarity system reminds them of a mechanic from a puzzle game that would make sense, like i said that the leveling system of silvergun reminds me of a mechanic from an rpg. But I think the heavy emphasis has really obscured what is really going on with ikaruga s design like if I was trying to claim that silvergun's leveling system now makes it an rpg or an rpg hybrid. Also the uniformity in game reviews is not helping at all
Oof man. You demonstrated that a lot of people say Ikaruga has puzzle elements or a puzzle-like quality. That doesn't mean those people call it a puzzle game. You are arguing a bit of a strawman here. Like - Zelda has puzzles in it. But that doesn't mean Zelda is a puzzle game. Metroid has puzzles in it. That doesn't make it a puzzle game. Now while it's not a widespread opinion, some jackass on Discord may be arguing Ikaruga is a puzzle game as a way to hate on the game. And I'm glad you are here to address that kind of gatekeeping. I'm gonna defend my boi Mike Rugnetta from the PBS Channel here. I think his characterization of Bullet Hell shooters as meditative is super valid. That may not be why YOU are in here for. But surely, you must agree that depending on which Shmup and which difficulty level you play on, Shmups can be pretty engrossing and chill. Tohou for the most part tends to be pretty hypnotic, especially on the lower difficulty levels. You listen to some catchy tunes and vibe out on the slow, pretty patterns. I would even argue Mike is doing the Genre a great service by casting it in a different light in front of a mainstream audience. Many people won't even touch Shmups because they are intimidating. You know that, Mark! So when Mike comes in and says - "Hey, Shmups can't be pretty chill. You don't need to be some kind of savant to play them." That's GOOD for the genre. I believe you made similar arguments yourself. Finally, you appeal for a more grounded discourse around Shmups. That's fair. But you also need to consider WHO that kind of discourse would be useful for. If you start discussing enemy patterns and scoring mechanics in a Shmup review you are kinda preaching to the choir. The people interested in discussing details will most likely already know those things - hell, they probably already own the game. So it's a fair approach instead to focus on general vibes and broad strokes - describe the game in terms that people unfamiliar with the genre can understand to bring new people in. This is good writing. This is good for the genre. You should be on-board with that. Now of course there must be a space for the nitty gritty, technical discourse. But that's why I tune in to channels like yours. Don't slip into that us vs them mentality Mark. More often than not, we're all on the same team. Keep up the good work!
I wouldn't say I'm arguing a strawman as this whole notion of ikaruga is a puzzle game constantly comes up in conversation around the game and seems to be, by law, required to be mentioned in any review for it ha. I think that opening montage of all the reviews saying how the design of the game is so puzzle is pretty solid evidence that this is a very common talking point around the game. There was one review where the headline was literally "more puzzle game then shmup." And I have seen this critique come up a lot when talking about the game, which I mention in my vid is very difficult to address since the criteria is so vague. In regards to the idea channel and shmups being meditative and all, I get what the guy is going for and what he is trying to say. That when you are deep into the genre and really in the zone and all, it can feel like meditation. The problem is that this description could be applied to pretty much any video game, and probably more accurately to other genres. I would say playing pokemon or growing crops in harvest moon seem a much stronger option of genre if you want to relax, empty your mind and meditate. In shmups, especially as you start playing for score and playing the higher difficulties, the amount of mental work you need to do is very exhausting and pretty physically tiring at times. Not to mention the frustration factor of stuff like reset syndrome. I admit I am probably more cranky about these things then most people, but I don't see the need to try and push the genre as spiritually healing or mentally healthy and it does seem like false advertising as I've seen the genre bring people to the breaking point much more often then helping them find inner peace ha.
+1 to the defense of mike's outlook - the dude historically has been pretty into everything he talks about and i appreciate him bringing awareness of why so many people enjoy it to the masses - i know it's the most zen of any game genre i engage with and that even if i'm not a great player, there are lots of opportunities in these games to engage with flow states and i think a lot of people could get a lot out of that.
@@TheElectricUnderground at 6:40? silhouette mirage is a polarity run n gun isnt it? google translate is showing touhou in the margin on the right hand text although I can read the top character says "ton" or east from my mahjong knowledge but it looks like you're phasing through the pink bullets and blue bullets at different times.
@@TheElectricUnderground and btw you are fantastic at getting back to people in the comment section, total chad. this isnt sarcastic btw, I am checking to see the game at 6:40 but I wasn't trying to be a jerk or anything I don't want you to get the wrong idea.
I fully understand the argument of shmups already coming with puzzle elements when it comes to scoring and routing, but still disagree with it. And that's because Ikaruga's main challenge comes from the polarity mechanic. The vast majority of threats on Ikaruga can be solved by figuring out how to switch at the right time instead of outright dodging it. Hence why it doesn't have or need a slow movement option, it's not meant to be micro dodged. You don't need to understand DDP's mechanics to play for survival, you can do it with shmup fundamentals alone. The same definitely cannot be said for Ikaruga, it forces you to play by its rules since the very first stage. This is why even though it's an incredible game, it still has a mixed reputation among shmup fans. Because smhup experience and mastering of fundamentals don't matter nearly as much as understanding the polarity mechanic. It manages to relatively equalize the skill floor for both new players and experienced ones more than any other shmup since the main challenge is a different beast. Furthermore, the scoring of Ikaruga, requires a LOT more labbing than the score route of other shmups. Every single group of enemies and hazards is explicitly built like a puzzle with an intended solution for you to figure out after hours on practice mode. In terms of problem solving, it goes way beyond the chaining of DDP for instance. It's a shmup game at first and a puzzle game at second.
This is off topic but why don't you go back and do a video on ginga force I just finished a long term goal of 1ccing it to me it is what rtype final 2 should have been it feels like half rtype memory and half a raizing game hard mode later levels rival dodonpachi in difficulty last thing I feel like the story mode does a good job of teaching new players to practice one level at a time starting with easy. Thanks for the work you put in building the shmups community.
Ginga force does seem like a really cool game! Yes I will have to cover the games from this dev on the channel for sure, probably starting with judgement silversword!
Treasure month! Heck yeah!! (just thinking about it... maybe if Ikaruga had different weapons for different enemies instead of different colours, it would look less like a puzzle element. Wouldnt make the game any better though, of course.)
@@TheElectricUnderground They definitely wanted to take a more minimal approach after the 7 weapons available in RSG. I absolutely love RSG but trying to figure out the best weapon for the moment can be 'quite the challenge'.
Definitions are supposed to serve as a guide, not the law, on what something is. But at the end of the day, use some common sense to judge. Ikaruga obviously resembles DDP and Garegga more than Tetris and Puyo Puyo. Also, I think part of the reason the mainstream keeps calling Ikaruga a puzzle game is because they refuse to accept the notion that shmups can be well-designed and fun. They want to think that arcade games are better off dead, because they are unfair games that are made to eat your quarters (but lootboxes and gacha are a-ok). So they try to ignore the "evil" shmup elements in Ikaruga, thinking that whatever's left is what makes the game so good. And if you do that, Ikaruga becomes a puzzle game I suppose, yeah. Great Mahou Daisakusen is pretty awesome, would love to see a ShotTriggers port for it.
My feelings exactly. Yes the notion is very strong that shmups are a low tier genre and puzzle games are much better and have stronger design, so by fusing the low tier design of shmups with the genius of a puzzle game, you then create the greatest shmup of all time, that s mostly a puzzle game ha
For decades mario levels have been described as containing puzzle elements. Outside of crazy mario maker stuff in recent years people must have a wide definition of puzzle. It's a find the secret exit puzzle? Find the block with the mushroom?. I don't mind wide definitions but I wish people define what they meant by it when they use it when it can mean such different things. .
Yes no kidding and especially with "puzzle" elements because to even look at the screen and play is going to require some logic, problem solving, pattern recognition, all that ha
"Isn't any highly difficult game where you need to sit down and plan out your running [a puzzle game]" Yeah, I find it hard to imagine anyone would claim those aren't puzzles. The puzzle element to a video game (any video game) is an incredibly relevant descriptor, and I'm not sure why you'd necessarily want dismiss that. :) I'd also claim that Tetris is an action game. It probably shouldn't be marketed as an action game, but in the realm of puzzle games, that's definitely a relevant element that sets it apart from something like Adventures of Lolo. Sure, if anyone says Ikaruga is *more* of a puzzle than a shooter, that's misleading. But that seems like a pretty rare standpoint. I've never heard anyone say that, and if they did they were probably being hyperbolic. :) At the end of the day, if the puzzle elements are a major factor in why a lot of people dislike the game, that seems like a valid thing to point out. I've often heard the same arguments being used in the context of R-Type.
Very interesting video. Completely agree Ikaruga should not be considered a puzzle game. I do get why the 'puzzle elements' do get brought up with it more than other shmups though, and I think it's to do with 'answers'. In most shmups, especially if you're playing for score, there are likely multiple possible routes through different sections and it's very hard to say which one is the most optimal route. There is no 'answer'. In certain parts of Ikaruga, however, there is almost a predetermined order that you must approach things in, that order having been set by the developers, and it can seem like the player is tasked with working out what that order is - almost like it's a correct answer. You can see this right from the opening to the first stage. There's a very clear 'correct answer' to the order you're going to take out those initial waves of enemies. Not sure if that explains it well, but for sure, even if the puzzle elements are a little more pronounced in Ikaruga, if that turns it from being a shmup into an actual puzzle game then, yeah, pretty much every video game ever made is a puzzle game.
Yes I definitely do agree here with how it s easier to look at ikaruga like this because the stage design is so heavy handed in places. Again though this ends up applying to other shmups as well like silvergun and ddp. Ddp is an insanely strict chaining game where there really are correct routes and incorrect routes. So these game would also have to fall into the puzzle category but classifying them seems less natural since ikaruga is so geometrical and all. I really do think this is probably one of the main sources of the puzzle reputation, along with the polarity switching. Just the fact the treasure enjoys lining the enemies up in neat little formations
A puzzle is a form of riddle with mostly only one solution. So if there is only one effektiv solution (or general only one solution), how to solve a combat, you can call it a puzzle. If the game is full of this kind of combats (like Doom Etarnel), you can call it a puzzle game. For Shmups, you can mostly solve combats in many ways like, so I wouldn't call them a puzzle game. Even for the timeout spellcards in Touhou games, you sometimes can use diffirent routs or just bomb through to solve them. I never played Ikaruga, so I can not say, how that would fit there. For Tetris, it's also not a puzzle game. It's an abstract action game, whicht might look like a puzzle game (because, it was inspired by a puzzle game called Pentomino).
Yeah exactly something needs to be figured out with these puzzle game definitions to he honest. I just know that ikaruga and many other shmups do not fall into that territory for the reason you explained, there is a lot of choice and multiple ways to approach the game
A really cool game I was playing this week for Sunday's video is Good Knight, which swings in the other direction. At first glance, at least to the average joe, it looks like bullet hell. And it has some elements of a shmup, but very few, and is more puzzle game via it's fixed pattern recognition than anything else. It literally uses a single button to play and is really innovative. It's a bullet hell in the literal sense, but not in the shmup sense. It's often hard to categorize a game that's unique and doesn't follow a particular formula. Ikaruga is most certainly a shmup (doubt anyone here would disagree) with some innovative gameplay elements that could be associated with a puzzler. Good Knight is most certainly not a shmup, but with innovative shmup-like elements that would appeal to many in our community. I personally had a blast with it and think many who do enjoy shmups would too. Without a doubt more than fans of puzzle games suddenly liking or being able to play Ikaruga haha.
What's interesting about the whole Ikaruga being full of "puzzle elements" is that you would think it would have this massive crossover with competitive puzzle players (and yes they actually exist ha) but of course in reality all the top record holder for ikaruga are shmup players. In fact one of the record holders if fufufu, who also holds the world record for Dodonpachi Daioujou White Label. The reason why this whole "puzzle game" thing bothers me is because I do feel it misrepresents the design of the game and it's just so catchy and easy to repeat that it's like catnip for game journalists, they can't help but compare ikaruga to a puzzle game because they all read each other's reviews and hardly deviate from what's been said in the past. Honestly if one reviewer called it a puzzle game and that was his take and we all moved on, that would be fine. But when you have 10 years worth of reviews all parroting this same point, that's when it gets pretty crazy. But if you think about it does ikaruga share any more similarity with a puzzle game then it does a rhythm game? I think I could also make the case that ikaruga is secretly a rhythm game because you can basically do this with any autoscroller just like how you can make any game with unique strategy and mechanics a "puzzle game." The Good Knight game you mention does seem much more like an actual "puzzle game" due to the reduction of the control mechanics down to just one button. A shmup, after all, needs to have some direction input so yes it would not be a shmup but sounds like it takes inspiration from shmups. I get that the marketing angle on calling ikaruga a puzzle game is a juicy one, though I never found it appealing as shmups are 10000000x more interesting to me then most puzzle games ha.
Shin Megami Tensei 3 Nocturne is a Puzzle game as you have to strategize and figure out the best attacks to use against a boss, therefore it's a puzzle game. Strategy and planning=Puzzle. Super Mario Odyssey is also a puzzle game, they are 100% the puzzle games of dark souls
To me it is a Treasure game. Which means it is a "Gimmick" game. In most Treasure games I have played they take a type of game (shmup in this case), and ad something odd, or from another genera of game. I think people say puzzle game here is because Ikaruga is not like Raiden, or 1941. You could say it has polarity elements... but why knows what that means in 2000? Both Ikaruga and Silver Gun have these levels where you have to weave through almost mazes. I think when you mix the maze like levels with the the polarity system it doesn't feel like a normal shmup, and advertizing/ communiction landed on puzzle like. Interesting video, appreciate the content. I'm not good at these games, but i love them so cool to learn/ hear people talk about them
I think it would be funny and sort of troll to add a sequence at the end of House of Bullets, post credits, where you just drift through an empty room for 5 hours then I could claim the game is 5 hours and 20 minutes long right? At the end will be your Money Well Spent! achievment
Great video and discussion! I agree that a lot of those shorthand terms like calling Ikaruga a "puzzle" is just a way of describing the game by people who have not actually thought about it. As a side note though, I highly recommend you to shorten the intro of the videos, 2 minutes of slowly panning over texts is a little too much and the viewer already got the message in the first 15s.
It's just a matter of practice with any given input method. You'll see people master games with ANYTHING. Play however you enjoy the most and you'll get good at it, either with a stick or a guitar hero controller XD
im lowkey agree that Ikaruga has puzzle game element. well i mean in my opinion Ikaruga is still STG. but it has some puzzle mechanic on the pattern/polarity/scoring and somehow i can feel what Treasure give to me is a puzzle. because ikaruga gameplay was made for that. the enemy pattern and bullet pattern are made to be a puzzle for scoring like...let's match up how you destroy 3 same enemy ship and you gain bonus from it. if i can say Ikaruga is STG semi-puzzle game. because, i don't say ikaruga is entirely puzzle game but it has some puzzle element on it. except if Ikaruga gameplay was like Puzzle Bubble where we shot a ball to the same color so i can call that puzzle game then.(oh wait that's how ikaruga scoring mechanic too..., but at least Ikaruga is more STG because its shooting enemy,stage scrolling,bosses, bullet hell, like basically how STG game is). additionally im usually play ikaruga with 1 polarity only(or mostly because there some pattern that i should change my polarity in term to survive) because to be honest i hate polarity mechanic on the ikaruga. don't get me wrong. im agree that mechanic is creative and innovative, but it seems the mechanic isn't made for me to play. it really twisted my head and even like how i play Rythm game....😭
@@TheElectricUnderground oh yeah indeed Silvergun is quite welcome for me. but yeah the game is still nut hard XD especially when it using enviromental as obstacle
Ikaruga was a game I was excited for and pre-ordered for my Japanese Dreamcast when it came out, and not once did "puzzle game" cross my mind. Once I got it, I learned that what it is is a shooter with a color palette and mechanics that I severely dislike. I like to kill everything in my shooters, so I've nevet enjoyed it or Radiant Silvergun particularly, as both feel tedious to me... but I've never considered either a puzzle game. I agree with what some folks have said in that the polarity gimmick takes a scoring mechanic and makes it absurdly obvious, so that it becomes recognizable as puzzle-like from afar. If you really want to do a puzzle/shooter, you play Calcolo or Dolucky Puzzle Adventure '94... those really muddy the water way more than Ikaruga ever did...
I feel like routing ikaruga had the concept of assembly. Chaining stuff felt like i was building something much more than the usual stg because i feel you have to go out of your way a bit more than usual to connect things. So i feel like in comparison to most stg its not the worst thing to call it puzzle. But if you SAY the word puzzle a few times it sounds weird. So for that fact alone it shouldnt be called a puzzle game
Yeah there is absolutely no doubt that ikaruga has a very distinctive and sort of geometric design. Everything is sequenced, everything is clearly sectioned out in distinct waves. You can definitely see that quality that you could argue has been influenced by puzzle design. But the problem of calling it a direct puzzle element, like i mention in the vid, is now there is basically no distinction between shmup game design and puzzle game design since puzzle is so vague. Here s a good example actually. In my shmup i am working on I added numbers that pop up over the enemies when they die like you get in rpg. So does my game now contain "rpg elements" or could I say it s an rpg hybrid? I d personally say no as the similarity is just on the surface and not actually impacting the core design. I feel the same way about ikaruga. The core is all shmup but you can see how it looks like pretty distinctive from it s peers (except treasures other shmups who also share similar qualities)
This is sounding a lot like the "RPG Element" besides the Japanese/Western discussion, but I think you hit the nail on the head with marketing and journalism. Marketers will take whatever works to draw an audience, so FromSoftware games try to market themselves as tough in the right corners as long as it won't scare people, easier than ever in other corners and so on. Journalists will pick what draws more eyeballs and definitely have limited exposure to niche genres. The difference is that you apparently clarified the RPG factor in Radiant Silvergun (not watched that video forgive me) and that puzzle seems to be thrown in passing for a title or without context for Ikaruga. Fans can be influenced by what they (don't) like or experienced the most and draw lines from there without a big picture view.
@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah, I think you used the term "genre slope" in another comment and it captures why people struggle with this. You can easily blur score by making it something necessary for progression (like level gates - you have to hunt this many times before you can move onto the later Monsters in Monster Hunter which requires grinding even if you aren't getting stronger), making it married to unlock potential (upgrades in DMC are easier to afford if you play well) or just by renaming the system. It sounds silly, but just calling something "X" can be enough. House of Bullets could call score EXP ("Explosive eXecution Potential") and people will fill in the gaps.
This is the same frustration I have with witnessing new players to the Metroidvania genre try to pin down in their own mind what exactly consitutes a Metroidvania. Can 3D games be metroidvanias? Is Dark Souls a metroidvania? Is Zelda or Metroid Prime a metroidvania? Is Mario Kart a metroidvania? Some of the grasping can be pretty ridiculous. Edit: Just to be clear Ikaruga isnt a puzzle game at all; it's a metroidvania.
Yes Metroidvania suffers this same problem of vague definition so once it is applied to a game it tends to stick. Super Mario world and link to the past are Metroidvania ;-)
Most people get the game but never play it, so they're usually just talking about the bullet points. The gaming market has been guided by the steady hand of marketing geniuses that often know nothing about video games, they are there to crush numbers, to use textbook marketing strats and shove their hollywood producer mentality to presentation and direction of many games. Ikaruga is a great game, there's no denying what it has done for the genre but I don't think it even makes a top 20 of a cohesive absolute best shmups of all time or whatever the cool kids are calling the lists these days.
This is one of the best videos you have made. Very eloquent. That part at the start was very interesting. My only gripe is that you said the word puzzle so many times it lost all Meaning and just became a sound lol. Also.. I’m gonna have to disagree on this one. Ikaruga is pretty puzzling.
I think they are mistaking having to have strategy and consideration for what you're doing for "puzzle" elements. Speaking of Tetris, I wouldn't consider even something like that to be truly a puzzle game, despite being part of the genre. Something like Devil Dice is more of a actual puzzle game.
Devil Dice, I remember enjoying the demo but what makes it more of an "actual puzzle" game than Tetris in your opinion? I think things could always be more X but I don't see any loose ends on either one which make me say "RPG!" though I do see competitive elements which could land them into EVO with Catherine.
Nailed it! yes exactly! This is the primary point where if ikaruga has "puzzle" elements, then all shmups do as well as Ikaruga has no unique element that pushes it out of the shmup genre. But, what's more funny is that if you continue this line of logic, then all games of any high difficulty now include "puzzle elements" because they are all going to require very specific planning and routing like ikaruga. So we can finally say it ... Dark souls is a puzzle game!
Genres that people associate with outdated proto-gaming from before we had the technology and experience to make "actual serious games" are mostly kinda toxic. We only have some acceptance of JRPGs because companies keep pouring hundreds of millions into their production and FPS because they mostly changed direction for decades into interactive movies. You NEED to look for ways to market your shmup as either: - a brain-teasing puzzle for geniuses, - an avant-garde flashy art installation - or the deepest soul-touching story you've ever heard, because as soon as you tell them that it's best features are mechanics, scoring and gameplay density, you get chucked into the ADHD fidget toy bin, or the unwashed social outcast with competitive ambition bin if it's on the harder side. Worse yet, bright lights, scores and power-ups are now mobile casino-disguised-as-a-game-adjacent, so it looks like a scam.
It's puzzle with time constriction. In most shmops almost no funny gimmics, not that I'm against it, but mostly it's bullet hell with some pattern, here we have new type of enemy - obstacles. Also, the second boss requires u to think, or at least not to be high to solve how to defeat him. Maybe something similar is in Thunder Force 4, and Danny Phantom GBA, but mostly there is not enough in all of them, also, Ikaruga feels slow sometimes, to give you time to think ahead, like in slow-mo, and it's not my skill, and faulty hardware, it's genuinely slow, but it slowly choking you with enemies, impending doom u sent upon yourself when made a wrong solution. It's still hard af, Im still stuck (suck) at second level after 1h.
not related, but one of my biggest pet peeves is when people call something "just a game of chess". e.g. "jiujitsu is just a game of chess". i hear this CONSTANTLY-football, boxing, touhou, salsa dancing (?), dark souls, motorcycle racing, are all *just* games of chess. i'm pretty sure only chess is just game of chess.
I m with you on this, this is a really annoying thing in fighting games. For years fighting game players and journalists (or whatever they are called) would say fighting games are just real time chess, they are actually chess. No they are not chess. Having played both competitively the crossover is very slim and real time chess does exist, it s called speed chess ha. Again my problem with this stuff is, ok if fighting games are chess, let s just play chess then
Yeah that is a really good point, what the hell happened with treasure? Why didn't they ever make another shmup after this? I honestly don't know why, Ikaruga was clearly successful.
@@TheElectricUnderground legendary. I just could never really beat it. I don’t wanna play it infinite continues but it’s hell without it. Also I’ve been planning to get a wii and play the hell out of sin n punishment that’s the closest we get to the next Ikaruga.
Take a look at some reviews for Chaos Field of you want some good gamer rage. I don't know that a single one doesn't mention Ikaruga, and the games have next to nothing in common other than being on the dreamcast. Just laziness all around
No kidding. Well the job of the journalist is to find that meaty take and I do get that, but I say if you go for the meaty take it needs to make some sense, it needs to at least be supported in some way. I probably will make a follow up video some time where I examine plagiarism in game journalism because I think it s a massive problem that leads to babble like this
“It’s really a puzzle game” has entered the pantheon of video game journalist cliches, alongside “it’s just like playing an anime” and “hard games are all really dark souls”
A puzzle game is a single player game in which the solution is achieved by applying mostly logical thinking. That's why i mentioned reaction in my other comment.
The sticking point with that definition, and Iike I say in my video I'm not sure a real definition of a "puzzle-game" actually exists, is that whenever you enter high-level play of any game in any genre, you are going to need to sit down and systematically plan out your route and strategy. So that's where this "puzzle element" slide starts to show up because there is nothing specifically in ikaruga that separates it from other shmups that do not contain "puzzle elements." Silvergun has very similiar chaining and enemy layouts and dimahoo has a polarity system. So if ikaruga is a puzzle game or has puzzle elements, then all shmups do as well.
@@TheElectricUnderground This definition i have predates video games. In video games is much broader and puzzle elements refers to the one referring to games before video games.
@@TheElectricUnderground I see what you mean that if Ikaruga is a puzzle game then all of them should also be. However I've heard you say a couple of times that you would prefer if the bees system in Dodonpachi didn't force you to play in such a strict memorized way and allowed for some freedom. So not all shmups need to be as strict in memorization and planning? right? I've also heard you say that Touhou is less strict in terms of memorization and more focused on reacting to patterns since the bullets move very slowly, btw I'm paraphrasing, if I'm getting something wrong I'm not straw manning you, and correct me if needed.
My take with game journalism and how games become overhyped or more specifically misrepresented; Ikaruga seems like the best thing ever if you're not very experienced with the shoot-em-up genre or don't have anything to compare it to. I'd consider most 3D shmups from the Dreamcast era to be (debateable) better than Ikaruga including games like Border Down and the Cave shmups like Mushihime, Ketsui Ibara, ect though Ikaruga does have it's own unique game mechanics and style, it's definitely special in different ways. It's dishonest for journalists who only play mainstream games to speak with authority and say it's basically perfect or one of the best ever when they have little to no point of comparison and are assuming it's the peak of the genre. That's kind of a problem with paid reviews of niche genres in general. I don't like the term overrated and typically disagree with its usage, I think it's often misused just to spite people who enjoy something more than those that don't understand the hype but in cases like this I can't deny that it's a possibility with those reviews. I do really like Ikaruga all things considered, it's just that over time I found many others that I enjoyed more.
They're not better, you just prefer those! ;) I love Mushi but it can't compare to Ikaruga imo (not saying it's better... though it really is LOL). Preferences and jokes aside. Mushi "suffers" a bit from repetition in some of its level design (really solid with a perfect flow tho), and has a "broken" scoring system (just watch Kiwi's strategy guide and his crazy fire-rates setup) Mainstream gaming journalism is trash, I agree on that.
@@MP-S-TG Yeah, just my opinion I should have made that more clear. sometimes I still feel like playing Ikaruga instead of those, I would still rank them very closely. Oh, yeah I completely forgot about the score exploits in Mushi, really I'd say it's about as good as Ikaruga, Ikaruga has a lot more varied levels and more impressive presentation. In terms of scoring Ikaruga is really polished, maybe the deepest of those examples. I don't mean to de emphasize how great Ikaruga actually really is
Yes I agree ikaruga does have some flaws in my book but you re right that they never get brought up as they journalists have no idea what they are talking about. The 5 more stages comment in the ign review made me laugh. Casual recommendation, double the length of the game
the arguments for why this Shmup is supposedly a Puzzle game are very standard Bullet Hell elements.. might as well call Touhou and Bullet Heaven 1 & 2 a Puzzle game lol
Ikaruga is 100% a puzzle game. You have to solve the mystery of not losing your sanity trying to get through this game. I once got to the boss of stage 4.... I hate(at times appreciate) this game.
So, because you're nearsightedly out-of-touch with the perspectives of those outside your relatively small niche, you're complaining about them trying to equate a particular shmup's defining gameplay mechanics to something that far more people have ACTUALLY played. Quality content
I think it's because the planning and pattern recognition in shmups is "invisible" to players below a certain skill level. Ikaruga's polarity mechanic makes it clear as day when you don't think ahead enough, but NOT the ways of planning ahead in shmups *besides* changing polarity.
Yes I think this is part of the "puzzle element" perception as well because treasure loves to make their enemy patterns and levels really geometric and square. The funny thing is that silvergun has very similar design and requires the same style of routing for the sword and power up mechanics, but I don t think I ve seen it refered to as a puzzle game yet
I agree with your “invisible” statement as a novice Shmup player. I love these games, it it is very difficult with my low skill level to see the path forward. Nothing to do but to practice and take pointers from more skilled players. Cheers!
The flow state is a meditative state. It’s accurate to say that shmups are meditative. Motorcycling is meditative because it’s so dangerous that you can’t focus on anything else while you’re riding. Lots of everyday things are meditative, including shmups.
I describe it as flow like you say, because it's often what happens when a task of high difficulty encounters someone with high skill. I don't know if it can be meditative, though. Meditation focuses on disconnecting from all thoughts and being a passive observer of reality. It's like being on a river bank and watching thoughts flow by, as opposed to seeing yourself as those thoughts.
Flow can filter out other thoughts, but it does this instead by intensely focusing on one thing. Flow is holding tight with all your strength. Meditation is letting go of everything you can.
Tetris should've never been considered a puzzle game. It's an action game with puzzle aesthetics, same with Puyo & all other games of that type.
What defines a puzzle? I'd argue it's being a test of logical thinking/pattern recongition with one definitive, correct solution. It's distinct from a more general "problem solving" which is an element of all games which allows for a range of viable solution with different levels of efficiency. Those so called "puzzle games"? They are games of dynamic problem solving, difficult execution & reaction times, on-the-fly decision making, planning. You have huge ranges of possible solutions of varying effectiveness and constantly changing sets of problems to tackle, all affected by your reaction times & input execution.
That right there is a description ACTION GAMES. There is absolutely nothing puzzle-like about them once you get past the surface.
When the foundational assumptions of a discussion are broken, nothing good will come out of it.
"Just Action Games" but without recognisable combat. I do see where you are going with the real time games since that puts a lot of them in a vice where they may not be "violent" but require twitchy responses from the player.
Maybe the core is that they (usually) only have puzzle systems at play besides being real time action. You aren't platforming, but you are probably aiming or shifting something around.
@@thelastgogeta I'd call them abstract action games, almost pure mechanics. I don't think "action games' have to be tied to combat since then you're kinda focusing on how developers represent their mechanics via visuals/sound/etc., rather than the mechanics themselves.
And I just don't think games like Tetris really have any puzzle systems or elements that aren't applicable to all games, the only thing typing them to that is the block/color matching aesthetics.
I always enjoy your comments, you're quite the video game philosopher!
Bog your using your brain too much, you might need to make an appointment with nurse ratched. Clearly Tetris and TGM3 are puzzle games because they include puzzle-solving and puzzle-elements, and puzzle-design, and puzzle-thinking, and puzzle-graphics, and puzzle-action. After all, as I learned on wikipedia today, a puzzle game is a puzzle.
Great points, but to be a bit more banal and fair, you do try and slot pieces together in Tetris in an attempt to fill up empty space. So the comparison to a jigsaw puzzle is easily made. The action at the very least draws comparison to puzzling, even though the pieces are moving and there isn't a linear solution (though there is often an optimal one).
the world is not ready for "tetris is an action-puzzle game"
... but you all know it to be true ;)
No kidding! I would say Tetris Grand Master 3 would be the perfect example of this with all its crazy techniques and stuff, but Arika made sure TGM3 won't be around to make this claim.
case in point: competitive tetris.
It's so awkward when a game I don't like in the genre I love is turned out to be an extremely popular one.
I know what you mean ha!
12:13 man you are missing out. That's one of the best aspects of shmups for me. Nothing is more rooted in the here-and-now than bullet hell.
same
i'm not a very serious shmup person though i've done a good amount of dabbling.
ikaruga however is incredibly cool. beyond cool. not even mechnically, but the whole presentation top to bottom. from the typeface choices to the chapter titles. it just feels awesome.
i think this is the real reason the game had any breakthrough. many shmups have weak or niche themes. ikaruga is one note but it hits that note so hard. it's a complete thought.
I've referred to Ikaruga as a puzzle game in the past, in the same way that I would also describe classic character action games or RE4 as having puzzle elements. For me, it's just another way of describing the data-based, problem solving foundation of a lot of these games' mechanical systems. Basically, if I'm playing DMC3 or RE4, I'm performing a relatively high amount of on-the-fly calculations since I know that A is gonna lead to B and that I should use X in order to prevent Y so I can set up Z later on. Whereas in the GoW reboot or Uncharted, the heavy scripting and/or emphasis on randomized elements mean I'm mostly going through the motions and enjoying the passive audiovisual aspects of the gameplay. It's like a different part of my brain is being activated.
I do however take your point that there should be a clear distinction between the aforementioned games and something like The Witness, obviously. I also agree that Ikaruga isn't that different from, say, Ketsui in that regard.
Yes I think using puzzle as an analogy to explain the systems of the game are fair and make sense, the sticky point is when all these reviews and discussions around the game are going from the analogy and making the case that ikaruga is literally a puzzle game. Like if I was saying silvergun is literally an rpg ha
I don't care what other people call it. I play shmups since mid 80ies (or shooters as we called them back then). No matter if horizontal, vertical, danmaku or touhou, I know one when I see one.
My take is that game journos in general derive from cinema journos, they apply the same concepts of cinema to a genre that's barely related (yes both genres are visual and audio but that's about it), thus the big emphasis on story... so when it comes to analyzation of games, especially mechanics, level design, enemy behaviors they fail miserably. Then you put them in front of a shmup, one of the genres that's farthest from cinema possible and their whole analytical framework falls apart. Very few journos will analyze a games enemy patterns, it's pacing, the enemy behaviors to a detail that can discern from a good shmup from a bad one. Then you put them in front of ikaruga which has a mechanic that's staring them in the face, so of course lacking the analytical background of understanding and even more importantly APPRECIATING the core mechanics of the genre they will emphasize this glaring mechanic, place it on a pedestal and worship it... one reason, and why i think treasure did an amazing job is that this polarization mechanic enhances the core essential mechanics of a shmup, so the uninitiated all of a sudden see (or probably feel) the core mechanics blossom while they play and thus enjoy the game for the shmup mechanics that the polarization mechanic brings to light...
GREAT TAKE! Yes I agree for sure, I'm even going to do a video about this in the future called: "Does Story in Video Games Actually Matter?"
Ikaruga's challenge isnt purely spatial. The player can make the bullet patterns change at any time by switching polarity. There are 2 different planes on the screen at once that the player can move between at any time. That makes it feel different and it makes my brain hurt and I suppose that is what makes it feel puzzle like. That feeling is hard to categorise and the easy route is to say "puzzle like". I've said it myself in discourse. But its a shmup alright.
I can see what you mean for sure and yes I agree on the extra dimensions. The polarity system adds a fourth dimension of gameplay that also makes my brain hurt. But where I get stubborn is that this definition of a "puzzle element" can't really just be specifically contained to ikaruga and would quickly end up extending to other shmups if not all well made shmups. For example in garegga you have to very carefully and precisely track your rank, you have route things out in very great detail and keep an constant mental tally of what your rank is up too. It's an entire new dimension of gameplay that other shmups do not have, so it rank also a "puzzle element?" or hypers, or grazing, or any of the other very specific shmup mechanics out there. It just seems really odd to me that Ikaruga is so singled out in this aspect.
@@TheElectricUnderground agreed.With Ikaruga the brainwork is more up front and visible to mainstream gamers which probably explains its reputation.
I think most people associate shmups with some kind of areal combat action theme, and some people find this theme more essential for the genre than others. When the bullet patterns start looking very structured and symmetrical, as in many bullet hells, the games can feel a bit further from an action game and closer to a puzzle game. And maybe this gets into a discussion about suspension of disbelief, where some people in the audience may find certain aspects jarring and therefore removing them from the experience they had expected.
Yes I think it might be a case where people are taking a rhetorical explanation of bullet patterns being "puzzles" too literally to the point where now dodging bullets and routing is solving a puzzle ha. It s like with fighting games being compared to chess, sure there are similarities but fgc are not actually playing chess ha
Treasure month? The real question here is not whether Ikaruga is a puzzle game but whether Bangai-O is a shmup
Oh we will get there!!! :-D
It's a line. On one end you have action and on the other end you have puzzle. Ikaruga is somewhere in the middle. If you're playing the game as a pure action game, you will have a lower score than someone who recognizes the patterns and finds the best solution. The higher the score you want, the more of a puzzle it becomes.
The main thing that makes Ikaruga so difficult is that theres no fuckin pictures on the jigsaw pieces so I dont know what the fuck is going on. Nevermind if you have a yellow fuckin dog in the house that might try to bite you during the procedure.
CanDy CrUsH iS mY FaVOurItE ShMuP - Written by your fave game reviewer.
Oh that's great! Flappy bird is my fav!
@@TheElectricUnderground my favourite is Snake on da NOkia!
😎
@@TheElectricUnderground only if you deem the bid, the bullet and the level the player.😋
Well now I'm convinced: every video game is actually a puzzle game. I guess that makes TGM the purest example of a video game. And kidding aside, I actually do find flow to be a form of stress relief. It's just stress relief that you find at the end of a lot of stress.
Ha yes tgm 3 is the root of all gaming
When a game has a clear objective it can be thought as a puzzle game. Like Final Fantasy, for example. But at times it’s just used as a convenient way to make the writer look smart.
Exactly Zazon, but then the issue becomes any well made game is now a puzzle game. Dark souls is a puzzle game (that is an unholy union of memes right there). So are puzzle games the apex of gaming? Like why should be bother playing shmups if the best part of the genre is the supposed "puzzle elements." And yes, in reality things have gotten this way because one writer wanted to come up with a clever angle for his review so he said ikaruga is a "twitch puzzle" or whatever and then because gaming journalists basically plagiarize each other, everyone started to repeat this take until it somehow just became accepted knowledge that ikaruga is in fact a puzzle game.
I think it's more just that problem solving is common across a lot of genres, and it's often seen as a very desirable element. Since puzzle games (in their purest form, like Sokoban) are entirely problem solving, it's really easy to conflate "involves a great deal of problem solving" with "is a puzzle".
Ikaruga is a very good game that I dont even want to play. It looks fun to watch but playing it is something I really can't stand.
Probably the pace, it takes its sweet time ha
Don't worry, you can always play Dad of war or other games made for old farts lol
Nobody calls Shilohette Mirage a puzzle game? Basically a similar flip mechanic, just in a platformer. It is a bit annoying that shmups get typecast so often.
I know, there are so many examples like this. Wouldn't Link to the Past be a puzzle game as well, you do flip from the light to the dark world after all and you have to do all this problem solving and routing. How is ikaruga all puzzled up but Link to the Past is an adventure game or whatever weird genre it belongs to.
@@TheElectricUnderground lol, yup.
What is the game shown at 6:35?
I want to know as well. Looks similar to eXceed 2nd.
It s this really random touhou fan game with a polarity system. Here s a link to it yuyusansan.wpblog.jp/
@@TheElectricUnderground Thanks!
The editing in this video is pretty nice. You've improved at the whole process Mark.
Thanks my dude!!! I've been working hard to try and improve my video making skills :-)
nice editing. Good balance of cuts and the green screen rolling background looks good.
Thanks so much!! Been putting in a lot of work towards my video editing skills
Late comment
Excellent analysis as usual, beyond the quality of your videos and their relevance, what I also like is that they invite discussion. Since its release in 2002 on Dreamcast (I have a Japanese Dreamcast), it remains to this day one of my favorite shoot'em up, its sublime realization as well as its original gameplay concept remains for me unmatched or at least unique. (it has been taken over since, but not with as much gusto). In addition, he has not taken the slightest wrinkle. Well done to this awesome studio that brilliantly developed innovative and unique gameplay concepts that were Treasure in the 90s until the mid-2000s.
Yes for sure that's definitely a goal of mine is to make videos where I try to present a unique take (or a relevant one at least ha) to see what my viewers think about it!
I agree that ikaruga isn't a puzzle game and I get your point but it seems to me that in a shmup there is bullet *patterns* that you have to *recognize* and that a puzzle game like tetris, at least at high level of play, you have to do a bunch of intricate input much like a shmup.
Gotta be honest, sound pretty similar but i guess you could say that about any games tho.
Exactly this is that genre slope i was taking about, where ikaruga is a puzzle game, so silvergun which has very similar elements would have to qualify as well, then why not make all shmups puzzle games? Since the concept of "puzzle game" is so broad and undefined once you get put under that label there is no getting out. Link to the Past is a puzzle game ...
Thanks for the interesting topic as always Mark! I'll be sleeping in a bit. But I will totally watch this when I wake up. I'm very curious on this topic.
This is one of the biggest things I think about during my marketing on Good Knight. I know our game is borderline SHMUP, but I've been having alot of success to call it a Rage Puzzler rather than bullet hell as its a hit for the weird community im having streamers/rhythm/minecraft/casual/non-bullethell/touhou/hardcore. Its extremely hard to market this one of a kind game we have.
Yes exactly! And I do think the puzzle angle of ikaruga s marketing was effective, in the case of ikaruga though in terms of actual gameplay I don t see any elements that stand out as absolutely unique and puzzle by nature. If it s the polarity mechanic then dimahoo must be a puzzle game as well ha
@@TheElectricUnderground I just saw this and you make the most extremely interesting discussions as always.
Radiant silvergun has been my fav shooter for years and I didn’t even know about chaining etc until recently. I would just play it like a regular shooter.
Shmups are the tantra through which we attain Moksha.
Those who No-Miss TLB walk the eight-fold path.
Ikeda is God cave is Nirvana! And don't Dodonpachi is the devil 😈
I remember being confused when I kept hearing Ikaruga was a puzzle game until I actually played it myself
That point about slotting a shmup into some big statement instead of analyzing the actual mechanics and design is something that bugs me at times too with both shmups and fighting games. Big part of why I look to the shmup and fighting game communities for discussion and reviews on games in the genre.
Looking forward to the rest of Treasure month! I'm a big Treasure fanboy and have been doing runs of Astro Boy Omega Factor this past week.
Glad to hear it! Yeah the reviewer spin can get pretty annoying. Also gunstar heroes is next!
Great video! I think one of the things that really enables the idea that Ikaruga is a puzzle game is the several common elements between shmups and Tetris(/Magical Drop/Columns/Dr Mario/...)-style puzzle games: a vertical orientated/portrait playfield, objects moving from the top of the screen towards the bottom, a focus on scoring, and a frenetic pace.
Without going down the "all games are puzzle games" rabbit-hole, I think there's genuinely a lot of crossover between the two genres, and that players of one can often appreciate the other. Twinkle Star Sprites is one of the few examples I can recall of a deliberate mashup between the two - if people out there have other examples though please leave recommendations!
Yes I agree that puzzle games and shmups do have a good amount of crossover appeal. But the funny thing is that the genre crossover only works one way currently. For example I could make the claim that Tetris is actually a shmup, not a puzzle game, but since shmups have more distinctive elements it s easier to discern what is a shmup and what is not. But since "puzzle game" is so vague you could put that label on a lot of shmups and it would be hard to refute.
@@TheElectricUnderground Hah, next time someone asks me my favourite Shmup I'll answer 'Tetris' and dare them to come at me!
Ikaruga is a puzzle game just like Tetris is a shmup
A comment that is brilliant in its simplicity. I agree.
If Ikaruga has some random spawning enemies patterns, it could be considered as a "puzzle shmup"?
But with this kind of gameplay, the score ranking system would be unfair depending how lucky your run is.
I do know ikaruga does have some rng actually, especially on hard mode with the suicide bullets. So maybe hard mode is no longer a "puzzle game" ha
@@TheElectricUnderground After getting a good understanding of normal mode; playing Ika on hard mode requires some serious rewiring of your brain. I don't know about meditative but many shmups induce a flow state.
Seen the same kinda thing happen with mecha abime. "Oh Evangelion isnt like other mecha shows because blah blah blah"
I think it's just the fate of niche media
Yes exactly, once one thing in the niche get s some heat, now everything in the niche must be compared to it
YES I’m so sick of hearing that said about mecha!
“Oh _____ show is actually about the characters rather than the robots” ??? What are u even f saying ofc these shows are all character driven, whether they’re good or bad they’re all character driven when it comes down to it. What a weird non-observation that gets repeatedly made
So what you're saying is, Radiant Silvergun is literally a final fantasy game
Yes! I m glad I was able to get that message through finally
Restricting the play field in a shooting game via blocks has been done in a very similar fashion in Air Buster. So even that gimmick wasn't treasures original idea.
Yeah and it is extremely common in horizontal shmups. Honestly I ve always wondered why vertical shmups don t have more obstacle elements?
the polarity thing is really elegant game design, like Katarmari Damacy - obstacles and goals condensed into a single intuitive system
and duality is a concept with a lot of symbolic weight. chaining in groups of 3 feels arbitrary but I have a feeling it's similarly symbolic (thesis > antithesis > synthesis... the player alone can find the grey between black and white).
imo this game resonates with people on a spiritual level, which I think explains some of the 'religious' praise it gets
I definitely agree here! There is something deeply Zen or whatever about ikaruga's design that I can see being really appealing, I just find it odd and kind of annoying that reviewers can't seem to accept that a shmup can be artistic like this. If it has these types of clever mechanics and design ... well it must be a puzzle game of course!
@@TheElectricUnderground Do you mean that shmups are meditative? : D
Defeating 3 enemies of the same color in a row is similar to connect 3 type games, so I can see where this train of thought might of started.
I'd say that all shmups have puzzle elements but some rely on them more heavily than others.
HAHAHA Finally I have an excuse to share this! In the book “The Art of Game Design: A Book of Lenses” the author comes to the conclusion that a puzzle is a game with an optimal solution. As in, a “correct” path. Yes, routing does mean that an optimal path is eventually found, but unlike a Match-3 game or a jigsaw puzzle, once you find the optimal route, there is still fun to be had in getting better at doing the route.
I wish to clarify: this definition in the book was focused on puzzles in games, like Skyrim symbol puzzles, not puzzle games. The longevity of puzzle games like Tetris is that non-puzzle elements (timers mostly) switch the aim from finding the correct solution into finding the best solution YOU CAN DO.
I have to admit I've been guilty in the past of calling Ikaruga a puzzle game. I still think Ikaruga has "puzzle elements" just like how Radiant Silvergun has RPG elements, but at the end of the day, it's still a shmup and is primarily about dodging and shooting things.
For me a puzzle game is something like a point and click adventure - a kind of game where you would use "real world" logical reasoning/deduction to figure out the one solution to a specific part of the game or the whole game in some cases. Funnily enough Tetris has a lot more in common with action games than real life puzzles.
*gasp* !!! Well, i'll forgive you this time ;-) i think where I have trouble with the polarity mechanic being a "puzzle element" is that I think the claim is taken too far these days. Like I said in the vid if one person made a take that ikaruga's polarity system reminds them of a mechanic from a puzzle game that would make sense, like i said that the leveling system of silvergun reminds me of a mechanic from an rpg. But I think the heavy emphasis has really obscured what is really going on with ikaruga s design like if I was trying to claim that silvergun's leveling system now makes it an rpg or an rpg hybrid. Also the uniformity in game reviews is not helping at all
Oof man.
You demonstrated that a lot of people say Ikaruga has puzzle elements or a puzzle-like quality. That doesn't mean those people call it a puzzle game. You are arguing a bit of a strawman here. Like - Zelda has puzzles in it. But that doesn't mean Zelda is a puzzle game. Metroid has puzzles in it. That doesn't make it a puzzle game.
Now while it's not a widespread opinion, some jackass on Discord may be arguing Ikaruga is a puzzle game as a way to hate on the game. And I'm glad you are here to address that kind of gatekeeping.
I'm gonna defend my boi Mike Rugnetta from the PBS Channel here. I think his characterization of Bullet Hell shooters as meditative is super valid. That may not be why YOU are in here for. But surely, you must agree that depending on which Shmup and which difficulty level you play on, Shmups can be pretty engrossing and chill. Tohou for the most part tends to be pretty hypnotic, especially on the lower difficulty levels. You listen to some catchy tunes and vibe out on the slow, pretty patterns.
I would even argue Mike is doing the Genre a great service by casting it in a different light in front of a mainstream audience. Many people won't even touch Shmups because they are intimidating. You know that, Mark! So when Mike comes in and says - "Hey, Shmups can't be pretty chill. You don't need to be some kind of savant to play them." That's GOOD for the genre. I believe you made similar arguments yourself.
Finally, you appeal for a more grounded discourse around Shmups. That's fair. But you also need to consider WHO that kind of discourse would be useful for. If you start discussing enemy patterns and scoring mechanics in a Shmup review you are kinda preaching to the choir. The people interested in discussing details will most likely already know those things - hell, they probably already own the game. So it's a fair approach instead to focus on general vibes and broad strokes - describe the game in terms that people unfamiliar with the genre can understand to bring new people in. This is good writing. This is good for the genre. You should be on-board with that.
Now of course there must be a space for the nitty gritty, technical discourse. But that's why I tune in to channels like yours. Don't slip into that us vs them mentality Mark. More often than not, we're all on the same team. Keep up the good work!
I wouldn't say I'm arguing a strawman as this whole notion of ikaruga is a puzzle game constantly comes up in conversation around the game and seems to be, by law, required to be mentioned in any review for it ha. I think that opening montage of all the reviews saying how the design of the game is so puzzle is pretty solid evidence that this is a very common talking point around the game. There was one review where the headline was literally "more puzzle game then shmup." And I have seen this critique come up a lot when talking about the game, which I mention in my vid is very difficult to address since the criteria is so vague.
In regards to the idea channel and shmups being meditative and all, I get what the guy is going for and what he is trying to say. That when you are deep into the genre and really in the zone and all, it can feel like meditation. The problem is that this description could be applied to pretty much any video game, and probably more accurately to other genres. I would say playing pokemon or growing crops in harvest moon seem a much stronger option of genre if you want to relax, empty your mind and meditate. In shmups, especially as you start playing for score and playing the higher difficulties, the amount of mental work you need to do is very exhausting and pretty physically tiring at times. Not to mention the frustration factor of stuff like reset syndrome. I admit I am probably more cranky about these things then most people, but I don't see the need to try and push the genre as spiritually healing or mentally healthy and it does seem like false advertising as I've seen the genre bring people to the breaking point much more often then helping them find inner peace ha.
+1 to the defense of mike's outlook - the dude historically has been pretty into everything he talks about and i appreciate him bringing awareness of why so many people enjoy it to the masses - i know it's the most zen of any game genre i engage with and that even if i'm not a great player, there are lots of opportunities in these games to engage with flow states and i think a lot of people could get a lot out of that.
Damn very well put and I totally agree with what youre saying about how once an opinion becomes popular you hear it regurgitated everywhere
yeah it becomes so self perpetuating that it cannot be stopped ugh, like a real virus ha
Whats the pink and blue polarity based game?
silhouette mirage :-)
@@TheElectricUnderground at 6:40? silhouette mirage is a polarity run n gun isnt it? google translate is showing touhou in the margin on the right hand text although I can read the top character says "ton" or east from my mahjong knowledge but it looks like you're phasing through the pink bullets and blue bullets at different times.
@@TheElectricUnderground and btw you are fantastic at getting back to people in the comment section, total chad. this isnt sarcastic btw, I am checking to see the game at 6:40 but I wasn't trying to be a jerk or anything I don't want you to get the wrong idea.
I fully understand the argument of shmups already coming with puzzle elements when it comes to scoring and routing, but still disagree with it. And that's because Ikaruga's main challenge comes from the polarity mechanic. The vast majority of threats on Ikaruga can be solved by figuring out how to switch at the right time instead of outright dodging it. Hence why it doesn't have or need a slow movement option, it's not meant to be micro dodged.
You don't need to understand DDP's mechanics to play for survival, you can do it with shmup fundamentals alone. The same definitely cannot be said for Ikaruga, it forces you to play by its rules since the very first stage. This is why even though it's an incredible game, it still has a mixed reputation among shmup fans. Because smhup experience and mastering of fundamentals don't matter nearly as much as understanding the polarity mechanic. It manages to relatively equalize the skill floor for both new players and experienced ones more than any other shmup since the main challenge is a different beast.
Furthermore, the scoring of Ikaruga, requires a LOT more labbing than the score route of other shmups. Every single group of enemies and hazards is explicitly built like a puzzle with an intended solution for you to figure out after hours on practice mode. In terms of problem solving, it goes way beyond the chaining of DDP for instance. It's a shmup game at first and a puzzle game at second.
What about the hitbox? Exactly where is the hitbox?
Somewhere in the center, I don't think it s too big or small, treasure tend to have mid sized hitboxes if I remember right
This is off topic but why don't you go back and do a video on ginga force I just finished a long term goal of 1ccing it to me it is what rtype final 2 should have been it feels like half rtype memory and half a raizing game hard mode later levels rival dodonpachi in difficulty last thing I feel like the story mode does a good job of teaching new players to practice one level at a time starting with easy. Thanks for the work you put in building the shmups community.
Ginga force does seem like a really cool game! Yes I will have to cover the games from this dev on the channel for sure, probably starting with judgement silversword!
Treasure month! Heck yeah!!
(just thinking about it... maybe if Ikaruga had different weapons for different enemies instead of different colours, it would look less like a puzzle element. Wouldnt make the game any better though, of course.)
Yeah I think presentation is key to this idea. :-)
@@TheElectricUnderground They definitely wanted to take a more minimal approach after the 7 weapons available in RSG. I absolutely love RSG but trying to figure out the best weapon for the moment can be 'quite the challenge'.
I think I have a proper description for what ikaruga is . Ikaruga is a pattern chaining shmup
hyped for treasure month
Yay!!! Gunstar heroes is next!
Definitions are supposed to serve as a guide, not the law, on what something is. But at the end of the day, use some common sense to judge. Ikaruga obviously resembles DDP and Garegga more than Tetris and Puyo Puyo.
Also, I think part of the reason the mainstream keeps calling Ikaruga a puzzle game is because they refuse to accept the notion that shmups can be well-designed and fun. They want to think that arcade games are better off dead, because they are unfair games that are made to eat your quarters (but lootboxes and gacha are a-ok). So they try to ignore the "evil" shmup elements in Ikaruga, thinking that whatever's left is what makes the game so good. And if you do that, Ikaruga becomes a puzzle game I suppose, yeah.
Great Mahou Daisakusen is pretty awesome, would love to see a ShotTriggers port for it.
My feelings exactly. Yes the notion is very strong that shmups are a low tier genre and puzzle games are much better and have stronger design, so by fusing the low tier design of shmups with the genius of a puzzle game, you then create the greatest shmup of all time, that s mostly a puzzle game ha
For decades mario levels have been described as containing puzzle elements. Outside of crazy mario maker stuff in recent years people must have a wide definition of puzzle. It's a find the secret exit puzzle? Find the block with the mushroom?. I don't mind wide definitions but I wish people define what they meant by it when they use it when it can mean such different things. .
Yes no kidding and especially with "puzzle" elements because to even look at the screen and play is going to require some logic, problem solving, pattern recognition, all that ha
"Isn't any highly difficult game where you need to sit down and plan out your running [a puzzle game]"
Yeah, I find it hard to imagine anyone would claim those aren't puzzles.
The puzzle element to a video game (any video game) is an incredibly relevant descriptor, and I'm not sure why you'd necessarily want dismiss that. :)
I'd also claim that Tetris is an action game. It probably shouldn't be marketed as an action game, but in the realm of puzzle games, that's definitely a relevant element that sets it apart from something like Adventures of Lolo.
Sure, if anyone says Ikaruga is *more* of a puzzle than a shooter, that's misleading. But that seems like a pretty rare standpoint. I've never heard anyone say that, and if they did they were probably being hyperbolic. :)
At the end of the day, if the puzzle elements are a major factor in why a lot of people dislike the game, that seems like a valid thing to point out. I've often heard the same arguments being used in the context of R-Type.
Very interesting video. Completely agree Ikaruga should not be considered a puzzle game. I do get why the 'puzzle elements' do get brought up with it more than other shmups though, and I think it's to do with 'answers'.
In most shmups, especially if you're playing for score, there are likely multiple possible routes through different sections and it's very hard to say which one is the most optimal route. There is no 'answer'. In certain parts of Ikaruga, however, there is almost a predetermined order that you must approach things in, that order having been set by the developers, and it can seem like the player is tasked with working out what that order is - almost like it's a correct answer. You can see this right from the opening to the first stage. There's a very clear 'correct answer' to the order you're going to take out those initial waves of enemies.
Not sure if that explains it well, but for sure, even if the puzzle elements are a little more pronounced in Ikaruga, if that turns it from being a shmup into an actual puzzle game then, yeah, pretty much every video game ever made is a puzzle game.
I can take it if they call Ikaruga a rhythm game.
Yes I definitely do agree here with how it s easier to look at ikaruga like this because the stage design is so heavy handed in places. Again though this ends up applying to other shmups as well like silvergun and ddp. Ddp is an insanely strict chaining game where there really are correct routes and incorrect routes. So these game would also have to fall into the puzzle category but classifying them seems less natural since ikaruga is so geometrical and all. I really do think this is probably one of the main sources of the puzzle reputation, along with the polarity switching. Just the fact the treasure enjoys lining the enemies up in neat little formations
A puzzle is a form of riddle with mostly only one solution. So if there is only one effektiv solution (or general only one solution), how to solve a combat, you can call it a puzzle. If the game is full of this kind of combats (like Doom Etarnel), you can call it a puzzle game.
For Shmups, you can mostly solve combats in many ways like, so I wouldn't call them a puzzle game. Even for the timeout spellcards in Touhou games, you sometimes can use diffirent routs or just bomb through to solve them.
I never played Ikaruga, so I can not say, how that would fit there.
For Tetris, it's also not a puzzle game. It's an abstract action game, whicht might look like a puzzle game (because, it was inspired by a puzzle game called Pentomino).
Yeah exactly something needs to be figured out with these puzzle game definitions to he honest. I just know that ikaruga and many other shmups do not fall into that territory for the reason you explained, there is a lot of choice and multiple ways to approach the game
A really cool game I was playing this week for Sunday's video is Good Knight, which swings in the other direction. At first glance, at least to the average joe, it looks like bullet hell. And it has some elements of a shmup, but very few, and is more puzzle game via it's fixed pattern recognition than anything else. It literally uses a single button to play and is really innovative. It's a bullet hell in the literal sense, but not in the shmup sense. It's often hard to categorize a game that's unique and doesn't follow a particular formula. Ikaruga is most certainly a shmup (doubt anyone here would disagree) with some innovative gameplay elements that could be associated with a puzzler. Good Knight is most certainly not a shmup, but with innovative shmup-like elements that would appeal to many in our community. I personally had a blast with it and think many who do enjoy shmups would too. Without a doubt more than fans of puzzle games suddenly liking or being able to play Ikaruga haha.
What's interesting about the whole Ikaruga being full of "puzzle elements" is that you would think it would have this massive crossover with competitive puzzle players (and yes they actually exist ha) but of course in reality all the top record holder for ikaruga are shmup players. In fact one of the record holders if fufufu, who also holds the world record for Dodonpachi Daioujou White Label. The reason why this whole "puzzle game" thing bothers me is because I do feel it misrepresents the design of the game and it's just so catchy and easy to repeat that it's like catnip for game journalists, they can't help but compare ikaruga to a puzzle game because they all read each other's reviews and hardly deviate from what's been said in the past. Honestly if one reviewer called it a puzzle game and that was his take and we all moved on, that would be fine. But when you have 10 years worth of reviews all parroting this same point, that's when it gets pretty crazy. But if you think about it does ikaruga share any more similarity with a puzzle game then it does a rhythm game? I think I could also make the case that ikaruga is secretly a rhythm game because you can basically do this with any autoscroller just like how you can make any game with unique strategy and mechanics a "puzzle game." The Good Knight game you mention does seem much more like an actual "puzzle game" due to the reduction of the control mechanics down to just one button. A shmup, after all, needs to have some direction input so yes it would not be a shmup but sounds like it takes inspiration from shmups. I get that the marketing angle on calling ikaruga a puzzle game is a juicy one, though I never found it appealing as shmups are 10000000x more interesting to me then most puzzle games ha.
Shin Megami Tensei 3 Nocturne is a Puzzle game as you have to strategize and figure out the best attacks to use against a boss, therefore it's a puzzle game. Strategy and planning=Puzzle. Super Mario Odyssey is also a puzzle game, they are 100% the puzzle games of dark souls
Yes exactly, and when you think about it, life is a puzzle game! Taxes are a puzzle game ;-)
To me it is a Treasure game. Which means it is a "Gimmick" game. In most Treasure games I have played they take a type of game (shmup in this case), and ad something odd, or from another genera of game. I think people say puzzle game here is because Ikaruga is not like Raiden, or 1941. You could say it has polarity elements... but why knows what that means in 2000? Both Ikaruga and Silver Gun have these levels where you have to weave through almost mazes. I think when you mix the maze like levels with the the polarity system it doesn't feel like a normal shmup, and advertizing/ communiction landed on puzzle like.
Interesting video, appreciate the content. I'm not good at these games, but i love them so cool to learn/ hear people talk about them
If Ikaruga is a puzzle game, Tetris is a rhythm game.
I ll up the anti! Tetris is actually a shmup ;-)
1:38 100 more hours of absolutely nothing would've been nice
I think it would be funny and sort of troll to add a sequence at the end of House of Bullets, post credits, where you just drift through an empty room for 5 hours then I could claim the game is 5 hours and 20 minutes long right? At the end will be your Money Well Spent! achievment
Oh man I honestly hate the PBS Idea channel guy. Talk about pure sophistry.
For sure, the pretentious levels are maxed out ha (which is a pet peeve of mine)
There’s a fine line between including elements from x genre and being x genre
exactly ha
Great video and discussion! I agree that a lot of those shorthand terms like calling Ikaruga a "puzzle" is just a way of describing the game by people who have not actually thought about it.
As a side note though, I highly recommend you to shorten the intro of the videos, 2 minutes of slowly panning over texts is a little too much and the viewer already got the message in the first 15s.
Ha the opening stringer may have been i bit too long, i just couldn't help it because there we just so many reviews that all said the same thing
You didn't even mention Giga Wing, I'm disappointed. EDIT: You also forgot about Twinkle Star Sprites.
Problem is there are lots of shmups that you could start to bring into the conversation ha
Too hard to make those precise movements on a pad ... the footage must have been done on stick ... maybe it's just me ...
Yes I think so! I'm pretty sure MAZ is a stick player, though I do know a really skilled pad player like Jaimers can be insanely precise as well :-)
It's just a matter of practice with any given input method. You'll see people master games with ANYTHING. Play however you enjoy the most and you'll get good at it, either with a stick or a guitar hero controller XD
Love me puzzle games, should I try Ikaruga?
Ha you might be in for a surprise 😉
What defines a puzzle game is a puzzle itself!
The real reason why Ikaruga is a puzzle game is because the chaining mechanic is a match 3 game :D
No weapon upgrade is what most ppl have a gripe with
im lowkey agree that Ikaruga has puzzle game element. well i mean in my opinion Ikaruga is still STG. but it has some puzzle mechanic on the pattern/polarity/scoring and somehow i can feel what Treasure give to me is a puzzle. because ikaruga gameplay was made for that. the enemy pattern and bullet pattern are made to be a puzzle for scoring like...let's match up how you destroy 3 same enemy ship and you gain bonus from it. if i can say Ikaruga is STG semi-puzzle game. because, i don't say ikaruga is entirely puzzle game but it has some puzzle element on it. except if Ikaruga gameplay was like Puzzle Bubble where we shot a ball to the same color so i can call that puzzle game then.(oh wait that's how ikaruga scoring mechanic too..., but at least Ikaruga is more STG because its shooting enemy,stage scrolling,bosses, bullet hell, like basically how STG game is).
additionally im usually play ikaruga with 1 polarity only(or mostly because there some pattern that i should change my polarity in term to survive) because to be honest i hate polarity mechanic on the ikaruga. don't get me wrong. im agree that mechanic is creative and innovative, but it seems the mechanic isn't made for me to play. it really twisted my head and even like how i play Rythm game....😭
Yeah polarity is a brain bender for sure!!! Silvergun might be more what you are looking for :-)
@@TheElectricUnderground oh yeah indeed Silvergun is quite welcome for me. but yeah the game is still nut hard XD especially when it using enviromental as obstacle
Ikaruga was a game I was excited for and pre-ordered for my Japanese Dreamcast when it came out, and not once did "puzzle game" cross my mind. Once I got it, I learned that what it is is a shooter with a color palette and mechanics that I severely dislike. I like to kill everything in my shooters, so I've nevet enjoyed it or Radiant Silvergun particularly, as both feel tedious to me... but I've never considered either a puzzle game. I agree with what some folks have said in that the polarity gimmick takes a scoring mechanic and makes it absurdly obvious, so that it becomes recognizable as puzzle-like from afar.
If you really want to do a puzzle/shooter, you play Calcolo or Dolucky Puzzle Adventure '94... those really muddy the water way more than Ikaruga ever did...
shmup-like puzzle games are what shmups should be called
Theres two types of video games, puzzle games and walking simulators
I feel like routing ikaruga had the concept of assembly. Chaining stuff felt like i was building something much more than the usual stg because i feel you have to go out of your way a bit more than usual to connect things. So i feel like in comparison to most stg its not the worst thing to call it puzzle. But if you SAY the word puzzle a few times it sounds weird. So for that fact alone it shouldnt be called a puzzle game
Yeah there is absolutely no doubt that ikaruga has a very distinctive and sort of geometric design. Everything is sequenced, everything is clearly sectioned out in distinct waves. You can definitely see that quality that you could argue has been influenced by puzzle design. But the problem of calling it a direct puzzle element, like i mention in the vid, is now there is basically no distinction between shmup game design and puzzle game design since puzzle is so vague. Here s a good example actually. In my shmup i am working on I added numbers that pop up over the enemies when they die like you get in rpg. So does my game now contain "rpg elements" or could I say it s an rpg hybrid? I d personally say no as the similarity is just on the surface and not actually impacting the core design. I feel the same way about ikaruga. The core is all shmup but you can see how it looks like pretty distinctive from it s peers (except treasures other shmups who also share similar qualities)
Ikaruga is more like timing the polarity right instead of dodging
The Shmup Times Magazine coming SOON lol hahahhaha
Time to raise the stakes and ask these questions about Konami's Quarth. :P
Oh boy ha, like i said i am tempted to try and define a "puzzle game" but it s so vague i m glad I can stick with shmups
I thought Tetris was a shmdown?
I don't even know what tetris is at this point ha
This is sounding a lot like the "RPG Element" besides the Japanese/Western discussion, but I think you hit the nail on the head with marketing and journalism.
Marketers will take whatever works to draw an audience, so FromSoftware games try to market themselves as tough in the right corners as long as it won't scare people, easier than ever in other corners and so on.
Journalists will pick what draws more eyeballs and definitely have limited exposure to niche genres. The difference is that you apparently clarified the RPG factor in Radiant Silvergun (not watched that video forgive me) and that puzzle seems to be thrown in passing for a title or without context for Ikaruga.
Fans can be influenced by what they (don't) like or experienced the most and draw lines from there without a big picture view.
Gogeta I came this close -->
@@TheElectricUnderground Yeah, I think you used the term "genre slope" in another comment and it captures why people struggle with this.
You can easily blur score by making it something necessary for progression (like level gates - you have to hunt this many times before you can move onto the later Monsters in Monster Hunter which requires grinding even if you aren't getting stronger), making it married to unlock potential (upgrades in DMC are easier to afford if you play well) or just by renaming the system.
It sounds silly, but just calling something "X" can be enough. House of Bullets could call score EXP ("Explosive eXecution Potential") and people will fill in the gaps.
This is the same frustration I have with witnessing new players to the Metroidvania genre try to pin down in their own mind what exactly consitutes a Metroidvania. Can 3D games be metroidvanias? Is Dark Souls a metroidvania? Is Zelda or Metroid Prime a metroidvania?
Is Mario Kart a metroidvania?
Some of the grasping can be pretty ridiculous.
Edit: Just to be clear Ikaruga isnt a puzzle game at all; it's a metroidvania.
Yes Metroidvania suffers this same problem of vague definition so once it is applied to a game it tends to stick. Super Mario world and link to the past are Metroidvania ;-)
Most people get the game but never play it, so they're usually just talking about the bullet points. The gaming market has been guided by the steady hand of marketing geniuses that often know nothing about video games, they are there to crush numbers, to use textbook marketing strats and shove their hollywood producer mentality to presentation and direction of many games. Ikaruga is a great game, there's no denying what it has done for the genre but I don't think it even makes a top 20 of a cohesive absolute best shmups of all time or whatever the cool kids are calling the lists these days.
This is one of the best videos you have made. Very eloquent. That part at the start was very interesting. My only gripe is that you said the word puzzle so many times it lost all Meaning and just became a sound lol. Also.. I’m gonna have to disagree on this one. Ikaruga is pretty puzzling.
Thanks! Yes this is one of my fav vids i ve made :-) also i m not sure if puzzle has any meaning anymore ...
I think they are mistaking having to have strategy and consideration for what you're doing for "puzzle" elements. Speaking of Tetris, I wouldn't consider even something like that to be truly a puzzle game, despite being part of the genre. Something like Devil Dice is more of a actual puzzle game.
Devil Dice, I remember enjoying the demo but what makes it more of an "actual puzzle" game than Tetris in your opinion?
I think things could always be more X but I don't see any loose ends on either one which make me say "RPG!" though I do see competitive elements which could land them into EVO with Catherine.
Nailed it! yes exactly! This is the primary point where if ikaruga has "puzzle" elements, then all shmups do as well as Ikaruga has no unique element that pushes it out of the shmup genre. But, what's more funny is that if you continue this line of logic, then all games of any high difficulty now include "puzzle elements" because they are all going to require very specific planning and routing like ikaruga. So we can finally say it ... Dark souls is a puzzle game!
Ikaruga is a puzzle game like blue max is a vertical shmup.
XD
Genres that people associate with outdated proto-gaming from before we had the technology and experience to make "actual serious games" are mostly kinda toxic. We only have some acceptance of JRPGs because companies keep pouring hundreds of millions into their production and FPS because they mostly changed direction for decades into interactive movies.
You NEED to look for ways to market your shmup as either:
- a brain-teasing puzzle for geniuses,
- an avant-garde flashy art installation
- or the deepest soul-touching story you've ever heard,
because as soon as you tell them that it's best features are mechanics, scoring and gameplay density, you get chucked into the ADHD fidget toy bin, or the unwashed social outcast with competitive ambition bin if it's on the harder side.
Worse yet, bright lights, scores and power-ups are now mobile casino-disguised-as-a-game-adjacent, so it looks like a scam.
It's puzzle with time constriction. In most shmops almost no funny gimmics, not that I'm against it, but mostly it's bullet hell with some pattern, here we have new type of enemy - obstacles. Also, the second boss requires u to think, or at least not to be high to solve how to defeat him. Maybe something similar is in Thunder Force 4, and Danny Phantom GBA, but mostly there is not enough in all of them, also, Ikaruga feels slow sometimes, to give you time to think ahead, like in slow-mo, and it's not my skill, and faulty hardware, it's genuinely slow, but it slowly choking you with enemies, impending doom u sent upon yourself when made a wrong solution. It's still hard af, Im still stuck (suck) at second level after 1h.
Ikaruga truly is the dark souls of puzzle games
not related, but one of my biggest pet peeves is when people call something "just a game of chess". e.g. "jiujitsu is just a game of chess". i hear this CONSTANTLY-football, boxing, touhou, salsa dancing (?), dark souls, motorcycle racing, are all *just* games of chess. i'm pretty sure only chess is just game of chess.
I m with you on this, this is a really annoying thing in fighting games. For years fighting game players and journalists (or whatever they are called) would say fighting games are just real time chess, they are actually chess. No they are not chess. Having played both competitively the crossover is very slim and real time chess does exist, it s called speed chess ha. Again my problem with this stuff is, ok if fighting games are chess, let s just play chess then
All I know is the creator choked after creating it I mean shouldn’t there be like 3 more Ikaruga after this one?
Yeah that is a really good point, what the hell happened with treasure? Why didn't they ever make another shmup after this? I honestly don't know why, Ikaruga was clearly successful.
@@TheElectricUnderground legendary. I just could never really beat it. I don’t wanna play it infinite continues but it’s hell without it. Also I’ve been planning to get a wii and play the hell out of sin n punishment that’s the closest we get to the next Ikaruga.
Take a look at some reviews for Chaos Field of you want some good gamer rage. I don't know that a single one doesn't mention Ikaruga, and the games have next to nothing in common other than being on the dreamcast. Just laziness all around
No kidding. Well the job of the journalist is to find that meaty take and I do get that, but I say if you go for the meaty take it needs to make some sense, it needs to at least be supported in some way. I probably will make a follow up video some time where I examine plagiarism in game journalism because I think it s a massive problem that leads to babble like this
“It’s really a puzzle game” has entered the pantheon of video game journalist cliches, alongside “it’s just like playing an anime” and “hard games are all really dark souls”
Yes exactly! Ikaruga is a puzzle game is the dark souls of game journalism cliche
Ikaruga is a realistic dating sim
:-D
I mean the game is not a puzzle game but seeing top players making it look like it doesn't help lol
A puzzle game is a single player game in which the solution is achieved by applying mostly logical thinking. That's why i mentioned reaction in my other comment.
The sticking point with that definition, and Iike I say in my video I'm not sure a real definition of a "puzzle-game" actually exists, is that whenever you enter high-level play of any game in any genre, you are going to need to sit down and systematically plan out your route and strategy. So that's where this "puzzle element" slide starts to show up because there is nothing specifically in ikaruga that separates it from other shmups that do not contain "puzzle elements." Silvergun has very similiar chaining and enemy layouts and dimahoo has a polarity system. So if ikaruga is a puzzle game or has puzzle elements, then all shmups do as well.
@@TheElectricUnderground This definition i have predates video games. In video games is much broader and puzzle elements refers to the one referring to games before video games.
@@TheElectricUnderground I see what you mean that if Ikaruga is a puzzle game then all of them should also be. However I've heard you say a couple of times that you would prefer if the bees system in Dodonpachi didn't force you to play in such a strict memorized way and allowed for some freedom. So not all shmups need to be as strict in memorization and planning? right? I've also heard you say that Touhou is less strict in terms of memorization and more focused on reacting to patterns since the bullets move very slowly, btw I'm paraphrasing, if I'm getting something wrong I'm not straw manning you, and correct me if needed.
Does that make strategy/tactics games puzzle games?
@@zkrust5406 I don't know, ask the person who came up with the definition.
My take with game journalism and how games become overhyped or more specifically misrepresented; Ikaruga seems like the best thing ever if you're not very experienced with the shoot-em-up genre or don't have anything to compare it to.
I'd consider most 3D shmups from the Dreamcast era to be (debateable) better than Ikaruga
including games like Border Down and the Cave shmups like Mushihime, Ketsui Ibara, ect though Ikaruga does have it's own unique game mechanics and style, it's definitely special in different ways.
It's dishonest for journalists who only play mainstream games to speak with authority and say it's basically perfect or one of the best ever when they have little to no point of comparison and are assuming it's the peak of the genre. That's kind of a problem with paid reviews of niche genres in general.
I don't like the term overrated and typically disagree with its usage, I think it's often misused just to spite people who enjoy something more than those that don't understand the hype but in cases like this I can't deny that it's a possibility with those reviews.
I do really like Ikaruga all things considered, it's just that over time I found many others that I enjoyed more.
They're not better, you just prefer those! ;)
I love Mushi but it can't compare to Ikaruga imo (not saying it's better... though it really is LOL).
Preferences and jokes aside. Mushi "suffers" a bit from repetition in some of its level design (really solid with a perfect flow tho), and has a "broken" scoring system (just watch Kiwi's strategy guide and his crazy fire-rates setup)
Mainstream gaming journalism is trash, I agree on that.
@@MP-S-TG Yeah, just my opinion I should have made that more clear.
sometimes I still feel like playing Ikaruga instead of those, I would still rank them very closely.
Oh, yeah I completely forgot about the score exploits in Mushi, really I'd say it's about as good as Ikaruga, Ikaruga has a lot more varied levels and more impressive presentation.
In terms of scoring Ikaruga is really polished, maybe the deepest of those examples. I don't mean to de emphasize how great Ikaruga actually really is
Yes I agree ikaruga does have some flaws in my book but you re right that they never get brought up as they journalists have no idea what they are talking about. The 5 more stages comment in the ign review made me laugh. Casual recommendation, double the length of the game
I suppose color matching 2 colors is actually a legit puzzle to these game devs.
the arguments for why this Shmup is supposedly a Puzzle game are very standard Bullet Hell elements.. might as well call Touhou and Bullet Heaven 1 & 2 a Puzzle game lol
Ikaruga is 100% a puzzle game.
You have to solve the mystery of not losing your sanity trying to get through this game.
I once got to the boss of stage 4.... I hate(at times appreciate) this game.
I've seen this idea that it's a puzzle game parroted around even by Shmup fans. I'm glad for this video.
It just came to mind that there are many people calling Super Ghouls and Ghosts a puzzle game (including SNES Drunk), drives me nuts.
Exactly my dude, the madness must be stopped. Before you know it any game that requires any routing or practice will include "puzzle elements" ha.
So, because you're nearsightedly out-of-touch with the perspectives of those outside your relatively small niche, you're complaining about them trying to equate a particular shmup's defining gameplay mechanics to something that far more people have ACTUALLY played.
Quality content
Thanks!! :-) you could say this is the dark souls of shmup TH-cam videos even
*Game requires the player to actually use their brain for once*
"Intelectual" game journalists: That's a puzzle game if I've ever seen one!
XD