Japanese Vs. European Shoot Em' Up Design! Explaining The Euroshmup.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 พ.ย. 2022
- Japanese Vs. European Shoot Em' Up Design! Explaining The Euroshmup. Across many of my recent reviews, even related to my Bayonetta 3 review to some degree, has been this underlying issue of Japanese vs European (western) design when it comes to Shoot Em' Ups (shmups), Beat Em' Ups, and action games more broadly. This point has been a MASSIVE sore spot for a lot of newer viewers of the channel because, and nothing against them, outside of this channel, pretty much all other reviewers and game journalists judge action games based off of a western European standard. The problem is, in my opinion, that the western European standard of action game design sucks and is lame. So "good design" to places like Nintendo Life and IGN (simons says game play essentially) is "bad design" in the eyes of the Electric Underground. So in today's video I am going to explain what a euroshmup is, what western design is, and what issues arise within the genre of action / arcade games if you try to follow these design principals. Hopefully this can clear up why I am not such a big fan of games like Bayonetta 3, Sifu, Jets N' Guns, and so many more despite them getting strong reviews among western critics.
For more info on Euroshmups, check out the Shmup Wiki Page! shmups.wiki/library/Euroshmups
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#euroshmup, #shmup, #shootemup - เกม
As someone in Europe we used to call them Amiga shooters. Usually games made in the UK for the Commodore Amiga by developers who may or may not have walked past a Gradius cabinet at some point and thought 'there's nothing to this' then put out their approximation of it and fail - waves and waves of the same enemies that never develop and no intensity. Bullets all travel at the same speed. They arm you with a pea shooter and maybe one or two power ups per level or even a store front so you aren't fully powered until maybe the third level. I like my shmups to be designed for arcade play, even if they never see a PCB.
The bar is high now. Crimzon Clover exists. The weird thing is there are genuine fans of Amiga shooters and rate them highly, seeking out current shmups that play like the Amiga games they remember from their teens. Particularly in the UK.
I like the "amiga shooter" as a term.
Oh that's interesting! The term Amiga shooter probably died off because a lot of players, me for a long time, don't even know what an Amiga is lol. I think the term euroshmup will fade off as well because it really is more of a western design issue rather than being specifically confided to the EU
Yes I was thinking about every single shooter on the Amiga being a euro schmup I thought they were OK at best IMO.
But I played it relatively recently as I had a SNES during the life of the Amiga.
I don't think the Amiga had any Japanese developer support even the Arcade conversions were done by western developers
@@WWammyy I had some Sega ports on my Amiga 500, dynamite dux and altered beast.
I was thinking the same thing about all the shitty euro trash games I grew up with on my Amiga 500. The only thing missing would be water drops cause damage to the player… for some reason.😂
My thoughts on the four points you described:
*1. Inertia*
I see two reasons why developers add inertia to a game: Realism and weight/power.
The first one I imagine is not important for SHMUP designers, but for action game developers and specially racing game devs, it is quite important. I imagine a lot of games that don't need realistic physics still add them because they are expected by most people at this point.
Weight/Power, on the other hand, is why I think EuroSHMUPs add inertia. It gives a certain feel to maneuver a massive aircraft through tight spaces.
The problem is that inertia does not go well with precision, unless the entire game supports it, NOT BY REQUIRING LESS PRECISION, but by making it a core part of the gameplay.
Imagine a racing game like F-Zero where you're going incredibly fast and you have to turn sharp corners to maintain your momentum. Maybe tie the scoring system or your weapons' strength to your speed.
I think inertia can make for a fun mechanic in a top-view arena style shooter.
*2. Developer expect players to engage with the game "just because".*
Yeah, I agree with you. This is a very bad problem in game design.
Developers should always test for ALL kinds of scenarios, even the most outlandish ones.
*3. Slower pace, padding and greater focus on cinematics.*
I also dislike this in most games, but I place the blame on the general gaming community and the gaming market, not on the developers themselves.
People have been conditioned to expect longer games and to be unwilling to pay for shorter ones.
You can have the most amazing 1 hour experience of your life, but if you have to pay more than 8 dollars for it, people will call it a scam regardless.
Developers stretch the playtime to avoid those critiques, and I imagine most of them would prefer to make shorter, more polished experiences but feel that they can't.
The only way arcade-style games can get away with being short is by being either free or extremely inexpensive, which makes them very unprofitable compared to most other game genres, and that plays into why we see so few SHMUPs nowadays.
It's a lose-lose scenario for developers, and I feel bad for them.
*4. Telegraphing and predictable patterns.*
I think this is done to avoid frustrating more casual players, which in theory should expand the potential consumer base of the game.
I personally don't like it, but if we take the previous point into consideration, I can see why developers design games with that in mind.
The mainstream gaming community HATES losing and feeling dumb, and will rather get angry at the game and ragequit than stick around and improve.
To use the example of fighting games (since I'm more familiar with that genre): If you look at the achievement stats for Mortal Kombat 11, one of the most profitable fighting games of all time with 1.4 million sales, you'll see that 46.6% of the playerbase has finished either Story Mode or Arcade Mode once, but only 6.5% have played 50 matches online. The reason is most likely the frustration of losing against other players.
I think SHMUP developers are put in a tough spot because they can either demand a lot of skill from their players and drive many of them away, or embrace a more simplistic and approachable game philosophy that will anger most veterans of the genre.
Again, it's a lose-lose scenario for the devs.
I think most EuroSHMUP design choices aren't made due to incompetence or lack of talent, but rather they are a response to a market that is becoming increasingly more saturated, with consumers being more demanding and increasingly less willing to step outside of their comfort zone.
I’d honestly argue the opposite is true for a lot of this. Though points 1 and 2 seem pretty spot on, and it’s also possible that euroshmup developers *perceive* some of these things to be true even when they aren’t necessarily.
-The indie game boom has fueled a growing wave of resentment against the large-scale developers that laid down the foundations for what you describe in point 3. While larger, padded games still grab a lot of attention from mainstream gaming, the general consensus seems to be frustration with developers that create such safe and homogeneous experiences. There are more people nowadays who turn to indies to bring smaller, more focused and experimental experiences. Shmups have benefited from this too recently.
- Developers have been trying to slow down games ever since the arcades. The ghosts in pacman are specifically designed to leave you alone at times to create periods of rising and falling action, and there are plenty of shmups out there with cutscenes. A constant pace can be exhilarating for players that enjoy it, but for other players that will just register as stress and exhaustion.
That said, gaming has been more receptive to a constant pace, and developers have been more receptive to providing it- it’s just that that comes in the form of a speedrunning boom, not an arcade boom.
- Nobody likes losing, plain and simple, and both shmups and fighting games suffer from the negativity bias. Shmups have an advantage in that they allow a lot of flexibility in how a player defines losing, but most players *will* define it as getting a game over, and half of the playerbase in a fighting game experiences a loss at any given moment. Players that enjoy shmups and fighting games don’t enjoy them because they don’t hate losing, it’s because they’ve found things to enjoy in those games that keep them going in spite of losses- the social element, doing cool things in the games, so on and so forth. Finding these things requires the right kind of entry into these two genres, which is difficult when they’re niche to begin with; a lot of players’ experiences with fighting games are sitting alone in their room, getting increasingly frustrated with their tenth loss in a row, until they end up just refunding the damn game.
There is a legitimate conversation to be had about a shrinking tolerance for failure. I think that’s more of a conversation about societal failings than about gaming specifically, though.
- The top comment on this video is a stream of replies shitting on games they haven’t played and blaming games they don’t like for ruining the gaming industry. Though it’s not really your fault, the irony is thick in calling mainstream gamers less likely to step out of the their comfort zones in the same comment section as that.
Heavily disagree on many fronts, but I will address only one: There is a reason easy shmups are not popular. Yet your argument is that people "HATES losing and feeling dumb".
If so then why are easy patterns that Euroshmup applies not popular?
Big agree with point 3. I paid $20 for a copy of Star fox 64 and must have played it at least 190 times.
In the board game community, there tends to be a differentiation between "Eurostyle" and "Ameritrash" games, highlighting their design philosophy differences. Euro games tend to be more focused on individual play, building an engine, and unique settings, whereas ameritrash games are often derided for being overly focused on direct interplayer conflict, randomness, and settings focusing on fighting and war *coughTwilightImperiumcough*. The funny thing is, many have come to realize that some of the elements that are distinctly ameritrash tend to add the most fun to the games *coughTwilightImperiumcough*, and many of the latest forays seem to have adopted elements from both styles.
With regards to shmups, there's no reason why some of the elements of Euroshmup design can't be part of a good game. Radiant Silvergun uses rpg-style leveling to great effect. I believe you pointed out in your review of Natsuki Chronicles that there was an item upgrade shop that was actually not that bad. The key is understanding the consequences of the elements you are introducing and keeping a firm vision on what makes a shmup good. Heck, I bet with some smart game design, even inertia might be made to work. But that relies on being familiar with shmups and what makes them fun in the first place, and as you mentioned in a previous video, many times Euroshmup developers seem to come at it without that knowledge.
I think if shmups will ever have a chance to become popular, it'll be exactly from that sort of integration. Euroshmups not only have a lot of elements that appeal to mainstream players like progression systems and so on but they also play around with their over arching game structure, something Japanese shmups are very hesitant to do. I always think of Nioh when I think about the route euroshmups could go down - they're appealing to RPG/mainstream players, but are also so damn tight mechanically that pure action game players can't help but like them.
@@boghogSTG Exactly. And aside from the effort to bring some popularity and attention back to shmups, it's also about innovating within the genre. There's only so much a game can do while sticking to the old formulas. At some point, they just become inferior reskins of games that were already made. That's why some of the most well loved shmups tend to be those that mix up their gameplay a bit. In any game genre, fresh ideas are welcome, the challenge is implementing them well.
That sounds really interesting and ameritrash is a hilarious term lol! As a board game player, my family and I prefer simple direct games in which we can yell at each other as quickly as possible. The more intense the conflict the better LOL. So yes I think I would absolutely fall into the ameritrash style board gamer.
Check out Lethal Operation if you want a heavily RPG-ified STG experience.
It's very interesting, however it does tend to necessitate some grinding, and also there's no English. It has a huge storyline which is actually interesting, and a ton of character/weapon upgrades.
Inertia will never work. Nobody wants it. Imagine playing Tetris with inertia--it's just not fun, and it's not the type of game that will benefit from realistic physics. There's really nothing realistic about a 2D space shooter.
I think there’s a missed opportunity within the genre at large to try replacing continues with other systems that fill a similar purpose.
Fundamentally, the role of continues is to be a set of training wheels that a casual player can use to get through the game, with the expectation that their use will eventually get phased out as the player improves. It somewhat makes sense that little innovation has happened with them when viewing them from that mindset. But I think that particular role is incredibly valuable, and I think that continues do a poor job of actually filling it in today’s gaming landscape. For a gamer who has never set foot in an arcade, their experience with continues as a mechanic is that upon losing their last life, the game gives them an unexpected safety net that completely drains the tension from their experience.
Individual stage modes are a solid alternative to this, and one that’s known to work well already. Other ideas remain interesting to explore, though, and I’ve given a lot of thought to my own ideas on the matter.
I think a basic solution would be to just allow the player to adjust their starting resources when picking their ship, but telling them up front that score will be reduced and certain content (such as TLBs) will be locked off. The early Windows Touhou games have an option like this, though it’s hidden behind the options menu.
A system like this is more “honest” to the player about the nature of a shmup. It tells them up front that there are options to trivialize the game, but that those options are designed to be weened off of; the game values *how* you clear rather than whether you clear at all. It also brings some weight to the beginning and end of the run, since estimating the number of lives you need is now a strategic choice in of itself, and running out of lives denies you the option to limp across the finish line in a completely unexciting way. The system primes the player judge risk/reward against their own skill level in the same way that shmups do naturally, but in a way that’s more immediately visible and understandable to genre newcomers.
There are potential downsides that I might not be seeing here, but I think the system at least has merit in being explored.
For developers that allow for a bit more puzzle in their shmups, I think spending score as a currency system has a ton of potential and versatility. When the player clears a stage, they’re given 30 seconds to choose various things to spend their score on, or to just gain a flat point bonus and spend nothing- with an option in the settings to automatically pick the point bonus every single time for veterans. You could use this in much the same way as the system I laid out above, offering simple resource choices every single time, or to give the player more interesting things to buy with their score (Gunvein’s roguelite mode comes to mind). The former works better as a set of training wheels, while the latter makes the game more varied and enjoyable for casual players.
This system ties scoring into survival in a way that’s much more intuitive than traditional score lives, and it gives players more interesting choices to think about once they actually have that score. Even just the choice between a life and a bomb gets the player thinking about why each resource matters.
Something like Touhou 15’s Pointdevice mode could also work wonders; many players used it as a way to get their first clears. It also solves the issue of a new players getting thrashed by a bullet pattern and then hurried along, leaving them dissatisfied and feeling like they never got a chance to really “beat” the pattern. The amount of time that a single play session is also much more flexible due to the saved progress.
I personally think a score-based shop system would be really effective here too. The player can’t save a replay or a leaderboard score, but in return can grind for infinite score to be spent when backing out into a pause menu- it breaks away from Pointdevice’s original IWBTG inspiration and leans harder into how players actually approached the mode. Bombs become less of a stringent resource and more of a release valve for frustrated players, and those who want to sit down and master a pattern have the choice to do so. I think it’d be pretty satisfying for many different types of players.
This is a subject where you and I definitely have some disagreement. One thing you hammer on in the video is the fundamentals of arcade design, which I understand, and appreciate. But given that the origin of the Euroshmup as an idea came from European designed shooting games on microcomputers, it's hard to argue that they should be following arcade design fundamentals, because they were designed for a completely different medium, and to some extent, a different audience. You're not necessarily booting up an old DOS shmup to get the kind of frenetic experience you'd get from a quick blast in an arcade, nor should that always be the goal. And of course, you can also design shooting games based around the fact that they will be on console or PC, versus in an arcade. You may prefer the arcade design philosophy and believe that's inherently and objectively superior, and there are certainly arguments to be made for that, but I'm not sure that invalidates the ideas found in the typical Euroshmup style of game. I will say that I think you're generally right when it comes to inertia, though certainly games can be designed around it, and have in the past. I also tend to agree that being underpowered, combined with tanky or spongy enemies, is not a great combination, and is generally a bad idea. That said, I've seen it work in some games, and depending on the approach the developers take, can be an interesting and different implementation. All of that to say that while "Euroshmup" remains a pejorative term w/in the community, I don't think it's all bad, and I believe there are some really fun games that would probably be dismissed because of any loose association with that tag. If all you're looking for are fast, frenetic, all-killer-no-filler arcade games, then obviously these kinds of games won't be for you. But I think it's a bit limiting to say that it's all bad design, or that they aren't good games because they don't necessarily fit the design philosophies that you have prescribed. Interesting discussion nonetheless, and a topic I enjoy hearing varied opinions on.
Now this is a really interesting argument and honestly the best defense of the euroshmup that I have seen. Because each time I debate this topic no one can really offer me a coherent reason why these ideas would not be awful since they all cut across intensity and replay ability, the foundations of arcade game design in my opinion. It sounds like what you are saying here though is that the euroshmup was not aiming for an arcade goal to begin with, that they were more aiming to be sort of rpgs in a way. I think that makes sense, but I would counter that the problem with that approach today is that they live in this ugly in-between that I don't think makes much sense. They're not shmupping hard and delivering pure action like an arcade game, but they are also not as deep or complex as the popular rpg adjacent genres today. Like why play this weird half sim game when today, unlike the 80's, you can go full sim or closer to full sim. Like if you think about it, the rogue like of Binding of Issac is the current replacement of the 80's euroshmup. That era's design seems outdated to me whichever way you slice it, but I'm curious what you'll think about my response. Like I have talked to devs making what I felt was a euroshmup and asked them, why not just go full twin stick?
@@TheElectricUnderground Some of it may be an element of nostalgia for the older, western design sensibilities, coupled with a love of the genre on the whole, a sentiment which I share. Keep in mind, though I grew up in the arcade era, and played arcade games, I spent way more time on computer and console games primarily because of access and limited resources (i.e. quarters) to engage with arcades more. For me, I try to approach each game as its own singular experience, and while there are games I consider objectively bad, I still try and find something good or interesting about them. I tend to think the traditional view of the "Euroshmup" is okay, because a lot of those games did have design flaws and spotty execution. That said, loads of people still had fun with many of them, myself included. It's all in what you're looking to get out of the experience. As a kid, and a young adult, I wasn't worried about clearing a game, because I just wanted to play it and enjoy the sights and sounds, and have some mindless fun blasting. It's only been in more recent years that I've concerned myself with 1CC's and score chasing. For me, it was always just about the experience, so the cheapness of the design didn't really come into play that much, unless the balance was so far off that I couldn't ever see past the 1st stage. So even for those who are more invested in the genre like myself, there's nothing wrong with occasionally going back to a game like that, shutting off your brain for a bit, and just having fun blasting away at enemies. Are those games I would want to play all the time? Probably not, but they can still be fun, as long as you take them for what they are, and not put higher expectations on them than that. If that means waiting for a deep discount Steam sale to pick one up, so be it. But I think many shooters with Western design sensibilities still have some merit, even if they aren't all time classics, or won't be well regarded years down the line like Cave games or Toaplan classics.
Wise words, GameBoy Guru :D I also think that euroshmups shouldn't be judged too much by arcade standards. Especially the newer ones, like Sky Force, actively don't want to have an arcade structure, rather they intentionally want to give the player a slower pace and non-arcade reasons to repeat stages (like different objectives). And many players appreciate that. Even a seasoned player like Mike Matei enjoys playing Sky Force because of its more relaxed, non-arcade design (see Talk About Games).
@@listsofniche1751 thank you kindly! I think a lot of it is in what you want to get out of the experience. Some games I feel like I'll never get good enough to clear, so I'm fine credit feeding through them a few times just for the experience. Other games motivate me to keep trying. And still other games eschew that mindset altogether, and approach the genre from a different perspective. I think there's plenty of room for that, given the continued rise in popularity of these games again.
On the surface, this seems like a well constructed counter argument, but on further thought, it really goes back to the idea Mark said of “make me play the game you want me to play.”
I don’t think he’s necessarily implying all shmups with euro sensibilities are bad, but more that they’re more likely to fall in these certain pitfalls because of exactly the reason you’re trying to say- that they’re aimed for a different audience or experience.
Which, on the surface is valid, but I think it’s very hard to make a strong counter argument for the kind of pitfall found at say 13:21. That’s just inarguably and more objectively poor game design if a game can be so easily ignored and has no answer for you ignoring it. It devolves so much into not even being a game anymore; you’re essentially just looking at a backdrop
As a game developer and a STG fan, I completely agree that inertia has no place whatsoever in a shmup. I think the most fundamental design difference between the western and eastern styles is the “I want you to do this specific thing to beat the game the way I intended” and “this is a very challenging set of circumstances that you must overcome, try your best”.
That's a great summary of both approaches Mesh! Yes the euro style design is very directed and limited, whereas the japanese style is intense and challenging, but more open ended.
I don't agree. I think TEU devoted an inordinate amount of time to explaining why he doesn't like it. I deny any of those reasons are valid. Yes, they do add a specific challenge but I welcome that challenge. Some of my favourite games have inertia. Super Mario Bros, which appears in the video, has it. Super Mario Brothers is not only one of the word's favourite games (not that anybody should take what everybody else likes as a measure, but it does have inertia and it is also very popular) and within its cute appearances it also famously puts up one of the most respected game challenges. You need to be pretty good to finish Vs Super Mario Brothers (the arcade version, not the easier NES version) without skipping levels or losing a life, and you need to be excellent to come anywhere near the SMB speed running record. Super Mario Brothers is a good example of a game where inertia adds to the experience. Like all games which use inertia the task is to master its dynamic and use the effect to your own advantage. It also adds feel.
Super Metroid is sometimes cited as one of the best games ever written, and it has inertia on Samus.
I play and enjoy many of the games which appear in the background in this video. In fact, the attack on inertia is so unconvincing for me that it drove me /towards/ "Enter the Gungeon" because I became so sure all the things he doesn't like about the additional challenges provided by the game features he lists will become the same reasons why I like them.
It really sounded like a very long way of saying "I don't like this because it makes games harder". I DO like it, because it makes things hard.
Use the "lag" to take preemptive action. React ahead of the emerging situation. Use the curves you can generate to weave through bullets and enemies. Use it to your advantage.
Same with his next criticism: Underpowered? Straight away it sounds like "I don't like this sort of thing because it makes games harder to beat".
"If you can get away with avoiding the shrapnel you can survive"
But that isn't the point. The point is to maximise score, not just merely survive.
It makes him sound like a weak player. The point is playing more aggressively to maximise yield.
Also, rather too many of the games he considers or has running in the background are NOT from Europe. Many of them are of Japanese or American origin so it's a bit difficult to see how he has left these complaint on Europe's doorstep because I don't see how European games any more have these features than Japanese games.
He is right about what he calls the "Simon Says" style... people DO like it because it leads to learning a specific working strategy. Enemies start off hard and once you have learned how to respond you can defeat them using a system. He is right in saying people "think" that is a good thing and I do too. He suggests no clear alternative to this though? Spacing? It could use more specifics, exactly the thing you get from enemies which yield to a specific strategy.
Also, even in the end he comes up with two examples and one of them isn't a "Euro" title, it was developed in Canada. How is this "Euro Schmup" when the last game isn't a shmup, there are three faults in total, I don't think inertia is easy to find in European games, I don't think it makes things worse, I don't think being underpowered is a problem EXCEPT when it's one of those games where collecting powers is so crucial that if you lose a life and lose all your power it makes continuing kin deep levels far too hard. Then again, that is a problem I have found mostly in shooting games from Japan, not Europe in the arcades where kicking off people who were too good at the games was an intended part of the design... to maximise profit.
So, I don't think most of these basically three things are real problems and I don't think they apply to European games any more than games from anywhere else and some of the otherwise Best arcade games, have one of more of these features.
I think the same TH-camr should make a video about game he think have Good design, if he hasn't already.
I looked at all the games he cites as avoiding these problems and they are all very much on the Danmaku style. I do like that style and play Danmaku games but as a genre it gets tiring after long exposure as hosing down unintelligent unreactive enemies for a long time gets monotonous. Its' also ironic to have complained about having small craft when one common feature in damnaku games is having a tiny hitbox of just a few pixels square which makes dodging bullets easier. Another feature is having slow bullet paths.
Older, pre-Danmaku shooting games, like Truxton, Robotron and Defender, arguably offer a more serious challenge and he already put "twin sticks" on the type of game he doesn't like.
If I could put what he dislikes in gameplay into one word it would be "intelligence". Briefly looking at a few other videos it seems what he really wants is simplistic graphics and basic act-react gameplay. Here's a bullet, move out of the way, here's an alien, shoot it.
Listening to what he said I was going to say "Hey, if that's how you feel, why not try the Shrine Maiden games?", turns out he likes them. Same as: They're great for a while but after extended play dodging the hail while squirting down aliens with bullets starts to feel a bit brain dead.
@@vapourmile You realize they are talking about shmups and not platformers when it comes to inertia, right?
Yeah, I think heavy inertia can work very well in platformers because the basic challenge is just moving the character while struggling against gravity and geometry. There are sections of Mario and Sonic games that are fun to play when there are aren't even any enemies placed because of this, something that is hard to replicate in a Shmup because there is too much freedom of movement, no inherent threat like gravity and generally no way to inherently texture and diversify how the player alone progresses like slopes and small obstacles do in platformers.
I think it's notable that A Link to the Past, which is structurally similar to Super Metroid and similarly acclaimed but more comparable to Shmups in terms of basic character movement/freedom, is not inertia-based except for specific mechanics like boots charging.
@@vapourmile Exactly! This is the 3rd time ive watched this upload, trying to understand this wierd separation of shmup styles this channel keeps harping on, & on about, & seeing no other TH-cam shmup channel "I know of" does this, it comes down to he likes only what he likes, & it being his channel, he can diss a cool looking"Euroshmup" spaceship for being too small, while he is forced to intensely focus in on an even smaller, boring, simple dot "no ship needed" lol, in his Bullet hell games he cant get enough of lol. . . Granted, he knows alot more about the genre than I do, & glad im subbed to him, but I cant help but wonder his line of thinking, when he thinks hiding onscreen to avoid damage is being forced into playing like the devs want you to play, yet focusing in on a tiny pac man the whole game somehow is different lol. I will take a repeat of Sine Mora boss introductions, & waste hrs doing so, cause the bosses & gameplay are worth it lol, you know, the exact opposite of instakill CAVE bosses lol. Lastly, at least "Euroshmup" style has cool, pac manless ships to pilot, with cool enemys & backgrounds you can ACTUALLY SEE, when chasing a tiny power up. Unlike the cascade of giant stars & big gawdy boxes, coins, or ? covering everything up, found only in what he seems to prefer lol "Euroshmup" for the win - full stop
I once had a conversation, in person, with an actual individual who used "How Long to Beat" as an important consideration. It was like talking to an alien from another planet. Quality? Replay value? Nope, all that matters is the number of hours of content to consume. Not sure if you are a fan of the action platformer genre, but it is essentially dead because of this. Everything is a "rogue-like" (term is degraded to meaninglessness at this point) metroidvania because the former allows the developer to not bother with level design or enemy placement and the latter allows it to clock in at a tiresome length.
Rogue-likes... Some other youtuber I saw mentioned that it is ruining proper level design. Even for an rpg, its very important for me.
Lmao. I use how long to beat as an important indicator when I look at a game to see how long it will take me generally. Not that I value game length as any sort of metric, if a game is padded out and long that is bad but there rarely is such a thing as a game that is too short
Good use of Enter the gungeon as an analogy.That damn pilot pistol and level 1 junkan orbital lol
I know, Trux, that website is like a perfect example of this style of thinking. You'll even see this brought up in reviews where the reviewer will say, it's a good game but only 4 hours lol. Only four hours, that's absolutely a positive in my book. Unless you are spending that four hours in cutscenes or something ha.
Action platformers are having a return to form though like Steel Assault and the upcoming Moonrider. It's great to see Devs out there that actually understand the genre.
Goddamn that point on Simon Says game design is something I've been trying to articulate and explain for years but haven't been able to do properly. You just gave me the exact vocab I needed. It's bugged the *hell* out of me in a lot of recent games where people rave over the combat but the fundamentals are punished and I'm trying to explain in posts why it feels so bad but wasn't quite able to very well. I always tried to explain it as like "invisible quick-time events" but that gets the point across terribly, where the way you explained it as "the devs want you to do 'x' when 'y' and anything else is punished and 'x' is always a 'special' non-fundamental mechanic" is *perfect.*
Thank you so much for articulating what I've been trying to for years and simply couldn't very well. It also explains why Sky Force games bugged me. They were fun at first but got to a point where you simply couldn't possibly beat a level without going and getting more powerups by grinding older ones because the challenge was all in the numbers, not the player skill. Always wondered why that game felt so different as a shmup, and now I see it's *pure* Euroshmup. Ngl I do quite enjoy those games for what they are, but I get why the fail at being excellent and have a ceiling of just being fun little distractions, not a serious gaming experience.
My main genre of choice is metroidvanias, and it's why I hate hate *hate* the combat in the new Prince of Persia (it's *precisely* what you're talking about) but absolutely adore Rabi RIbi which is basically a shmup in metroidvania form as it's entirely fundamentals and nothing but.
Excellent video! I love these deep dives into the game design itself. It's super useful for people like me who are actively making an indie shmup and also for playing them/appreciating why they do or don't work. Just to plant a seed, I'd love for you to do a video on level design sometime. It would be really interesting and valuable to hear your take on what makes great level design. I recently read Bog Hog's document on shmup level design (which is awesome, thanks for writing it Bog!) and I can't stop thinking about it. However there's hardly any videos out there on the topic specifically. Keep it up man!
Exactly my goal my friend! Yes I have been investigating shmup design and discussing it with devs and players for years now, and so I am really happy to try and share this knowledge with a wider group, especially new players and devs who are coming to the genre that might not see an obvious entry point ha.
A lot of the design choices (or missteps) that define the euroshmup start to make more sense once you take into account where they came from. Unlike Japanese shmups, which were formed by the conditions of the (Japanese) arcade market, the euro shmup took form on the 8- and 16-bit home computers of the '80s and early '90s. Machines that often had lacking (or nonexistant) support for sprites or smooth scrolling, and Atari-style one button joysticks (and loaded games from cassette tapes into the '90s).
When you can't throw around dozens of enemies and bullets at once, tankier enemies make sense. And when snappy 60hz movement is out of the question, adding inertia to ship movement isn't such a weird impulse. Even when those limitations were no more the traditions that had been developed lived on.
Of course, limited home computers like the MSX were a thing in Japan also, but it was always the arcade scene that was leading in game design, with computers and consoles following. In many parts of Europe arcades were _popular_ with players, but arcade _developers_ were almost non-existant, so the specifics of the popular computer platforms ended up shaping how the genre was approached here.
All that ended up shaping a subgenre that was quite different from its Japanese brethren, but I think is worthy of being considered a subgenre of its own. Not one that is particularly to my liking, but it's not that hard to find people who enjoy, or even _prefer_ the euro style. Which I think is fine, as long as the style is chosen deliberately rather than, as often, stumbled into by mistake.
I always enjoy hearing your insights on game design. Your analysis is always really on point, and I like the terms you coin too, I find myself recognizing those things once you mention them. Your “arcade design is infinite” video is one of my favorites too, that stuck with me.
Thank you for highlighting this, its so important! Personally, I don't even dislike the "Simon says" design choices if it was used in context or as part of a grander design idea. Western games however have essentially turned it into their entire premise for ALL genres and its maddening sometimes =/
yeah like I think a simon says section or two could be a lot of fun, as like an action sequence. But to have the ENTIRE combat system revolve around it, it gets old quick lol.
Thank you for your take as usual 🙌 I'm currently working on a shmup board game and this video made me think a lot
I'm really happy to hear that Milton! One of my goals of the channel is to spark conversation about shmup and arcade game design. Also a shmup board game sounds intriguing!
I think if you're going to do momentum you really need your game to basically revolve around it. Think about like, Joust, Asteroids... even a racing game really. Managing the momentum IS the game basically. I think you could probably make a shmup like that but it would have to be more thoughtful.
Great video as always. My favorite kind of content in this channel.
Something I find interesting about this subject: Almost all the euroshmup characteristics (including the euroarcade vibes in some modern beat em ups or other arcade inspired genres) seem to be the result of not understanding the arcade mentality, as opposed to not being in tune with the japanese videogame developing tradition. However, the reason we have gems like Kamui, cho ren sha 68k and Crimson Clover is probably because the doujin game scene developed itself way before the western indie game scene got the hang of it. That is, most of those were made while the arcade was still big. Hope we dont see the euroshmupzation of doujin games in the future (although i can think of few reasons for that not to happen).
It's funny though. If we talk about game theory in strategy games (like Civilization, for example) or board games, seems pretty obvious that you don't want things to take too long. Devs do consider what you call gameplay density. Somehow this notion is lost for other genres.
I do think 100% this is where it stems from yours_truly. Basically, because western devs have been raised on console and pc games, this whole concept of the arcade level design is completely foreign and strange. Why would it be bad to stretch out the game right? That's just more "content."
@@diydylana3151 Same with some friends of mine. it's actually funny how arcade's "time is money" mentality actually helps making competent gameplay when well executed. That is, if you're at least a bit competitive (against others or yourself)
Btw, very charming channel you have there~
yours_truly , >Hope we dont see the euroshmupzation of doujin games in the future
Do Touhou 18.5 and Len'en 4 count as euroshmups? They have "meta-progression" and farming money for upgrades. They try to be "big and long", and Len'en 4 even has Extra + α Stage which takes a HOUR to beat.
@@tehteh9893 I hate Touhou 18.5 =(
18 is "ok", but would have been better if it didn't randomize so much. There's no incentive for scoring runs. I love mixing shot types to build my own custom overpowered ReiMurisa, but would rather see the card system implemented in a better game with no RNG.
@@76mmM4A1HVSS How would you feel about that kind of shmup if it provided you with the option to set your seed at the start of the run? I think something like that would be the best of both worlds.
I'm glad you made that video. The comparision with Shredders revenge is a good one. On the other hand I enjoy a few Minutes of that 'patterned' games sometimes, more for Training to recognized patterns than anything else. This helped me in a lot of 'non-gaming' situations. And sometimes I Just like grinding some stuff 🙂 I know the Sky Force games are not regarded quality titles, but I enjoy them for a Quick round every now and then.
I think having really sequenced gameplay sections is completely fine actually. It's just when having simon says style design as the entire core of your combat system that I think it's a large issue. There are some really fun sequences in games like metal gear solid and other entries into the series where you are following really specific patterns, it's just that the game has a really deep core gameplay system that balances it out. Same with resi 4.
Same here.
One thing I’ve wondered these last few days is whether something like a “pacing slider” might be good in shmups. My thinking goes that you design the game *primarily* around a breakneck arcade pace, but place an option in the game for players to slow down how quickly enemies and waves spawn; since one player’s adrenaline is another player’s stress, the slower-pace settings would serve to give players breathing room between waves at the cost of reduced scoring potential.
So something like the "game speed" option in Celeste? I like it.
Damn such a good point about the filler in games like Sine Mora. I so wanted to love it because it was from Grasshopper manufacture and I liked the diesel punk aesthetic but good god did the levels just drag on and on with so many moments of just nothing happening. It was actually my first SHMUP and I didn’t like the genre until trying Batsugun and getting a real hit of action and challenge.
That is my exact fear Robert. That with a lot of really low intensity, slow pacing shmups, new players will be turned off from the genre entirely.
The sad thing is, gamers (myself included) surprisingly bought enough copies of Sine Mora for it to somehow warrant it's existence (not to say it's this utterly bad shmup, but it's definitely NOT a good shmup).
Wasn't sine mora released on psvita first? If it was designed to be played on psvita it's no wonder.
@@lafourmiedesbois5901 No, Sine Mora wasn't released on the PSV first. The game was originally released on the XBOX 360 several months before it was ported to any other platforms. I remember, because I bought it on the 360 when it first released.
It's grasshopper manufacture, they've never made a good game. Killer7 was the only one that came close & was my first exposure to ghm. It's weird how every game after K7 just show to you that ghm does not understand how to make games at all. They're all style, no substance.
There are classic examples of Simon says games that are classic..... super punch out for SNES for example. Is there a time and place for this? Warioware also a very fun example.
11:50 I absolutely LOVE the "tracks on a CD" analogy. ALL KILLER NO FILLER! I'm playing Bayo 3 right now and I finally found a chapter that immediately starts with three straight combat verses with no cutscenes, puzzles or genre shifts inbetween, and I've repeating these verses over and over for a couple of hours, because it's so fun to fight without being interrupted. That's why I'm looking forward to the witch trial modes a lot, or why I love Bloody Palace in Devil May Cry so much.
Exactly Cutie J! The blood Palace and which trails are the real meat of these games I think, because otherwise you would be cursed to campaign full of cutscenes and filler. Also this is how a lot of dedicated players play. They roll through the campaign to unlock stuff and then spend a bunch of times in these modes. Though if these games had stronger campaigns all around, like Resi 4, then I think that would be a great improvement.
I'm curious about how much monotonous and repetitive moments in gameplay constitute filler as well, not just window dressing like cutscenes or a shop or out of combat menu to establish a gameplay loop (Hades).
For example, I really like Moon Dancer but holy heck, there's one part on stage 4 or 5 where the same exact enemy wave appears 5 times. It takes like 2-3 minutes and it's pretty janky, and I hate it! I know some repetition is necessary and used, but I've always thought it's a lame way to throw the same thing that often, it's like saying "this isn't super difficult, but maybe it will get players if they have to do it 6 times!"
@@TheElectricUnderground From what I've seen of Bayo 3, the campaign is a mish-mash of different gameplay design styles, none of them particularly masterful, or even fun for more than they last. But then again, this was always an aspect of the Bayo games, so...
Makes me think of 'Killer Kuts' the SNES Killer Instinct CD
Love your drag racing analogy at 03:10. but also check out top fuel, they go from 0 to 100 with less lag than a pcb. 0-60 in 0.02 seconds :0
I am not making a shmup currently, but this was a helpful video that gave me more to think about when it came to the controls of my game regardless.
Oh I am happy to hear that! I think these concept can apply to other action game genres as well :-)
One of the things that I think I did wrong with my first attempt at making a shump is my whole approach to ai. Rather than just a simple heavily scripted game that was played and built more like an interactive animation, I loaded each enemy with varying levels of elaborate ai. Often different enemy types would have new ai written just for it making a random feeling game. I started making new enemies with scripted ai when I realized my mistake but the whole project had been derailed by then. I think ai choices can be an issue for some twin stick shooters you see.
Long overdue (fantastic) video haha. Really hope you make sequel to this or even a review of cuphead, since you also consider that games design Euro Shmup. Nice video.
Thank you so much my friend! And yes this december I am planning (key word being plan) on doing a video on cuphead vs blazing chrome and comparing their design to one another because yes, cuphead is euro as hell lol.
The ways in which arcade games don't waste the player's time always deserved more study. Thank you for highlighting this!
This honestly reminds me a bit of Brandon Enterprises' Void Raiders in how a shmup can really act differently according to what the game is about, yet still having the basics of the genre intact. In Void Raiders, instead of just going up all the time or going right all the time, it is instead a sort of shmup that has a Robotron-like control scheme for shooting, but the movement is sort of like the original Legend of Zelda on NES. It's a really cool game, if a bit on the hard side. Unfortunately, it never got fully finished, though there are other levels in it, including one which plays more like your usual horizontal shmup.
Inertia: I can see that working well in certain shmups & it has: in Asteroids, the inertia is part of the challenge in that you are constantly floating around having to dodge & shoot asteroids, without the inertia it won't be AS challenging & would likely be kinda boring. In the Void Raiders type of shmups, I can see inertia being used as a sort of mechanic. Like, in a way where you will need to be able to use the inertia wisely to get some shots in before the enemy hits you. It can also mean not having to hold down a certain directional button for as long as usual so it can slow down a bit, making it an easier time to hit certain enemies, then afterwards you can release a different directional button to get away from the bullets nearby. There are circumstances for inertia being useful in a shmup, one just has to really think.
Small player ships: presumably this was done to sort of cope with pc/console hardware limitations of the 80s & it stuck around for a while. Unless you're tackling the early days of Amiga where they wanted every sprite to be GIANT for absolutely no reason. Honestly I'd much rather have the small ships than the bulky giant ones that'll likely just get me killed because MAN THAT HITBOX IS A BIG RECTANGLE... though some likely have it so that the giant ship's hitbox is 1:1 with the design. With small ships, one could react a bit better & would take less space on an NES cartridge. Even Japanese shmups did that back in the day because, again, NES limitations. Void Raiders, interestingly enough, despite having the inertia thing, doesn't do the "small ship" thing likely due to RSD Game-Maker's size voodoo, so it's quite harder to really dodge certain things that way. The small ship would definitely improve it more. As for the weak powerup system, giving you the powerups for a limited time... well, it could work, but only when the limited powerups are like the stars from the Mario series. Any actual shooting powerups should be permanent until you die.
Few enemies, but with a crapton of HP: Hmmm... again, sprite limitations, but considering what Recca showcased, yeah not really talented programmers per se.
Geometric level design with just following: I would see some of it being challenging, but from the looks of it, not many really have the philosophy to make it, you know, CHALLENGING. And IDK, ENGAGING!?
Oh some interesting thoughts! On the subject of hitbox sizes and sprite sizes, I don't think hardware limitations are too much of a factor unless we are talking extremely primitive games. The reason why is that all else fails you could just have to different object sprites moving together and have the large one not react to collisions. I think in the past this was more of a lack of developing the concept of hitbox vs sprite size rather than an actual limitation in hardware.
I think some of this stuff also applies to many modern fighting games.
There's been an effort on the part of some devs to slow down walk speed and lower poke ranges, so that players have a harder time doing basics like baiting whiffs and playing footsies. They'll introduce other systems to compensate, but because the fundamentals have been compromised, the game just doesn't feel as good. Why space precisely around an attack with good movement when there are other options that require minimal spacing to utilize effectively? It feels like a dumbing down of the basics rather than a dumbing down of combo execution, which I feel is a better way to make the games more universally appealing.
Also, funnily enough, that "Simon Says" design you mentioned was also very prevalent in western-made fighting games until very recently. For example, canned dial-a-combo systems rather than the more free-flowing ones in Japanese fighters, or rock/paper/scissors style counter systems rather than just basing it around the hitboxes of each move. You already touched on it a bit, but my beef with those kinds of systems is that they're so rote. You will do things exactly the same way every time because there basically is no other solution. There's nothing for the player to discover or iterate on because the ideal options you're given are the ones the devs decided on themselves.
It's also why I wasn't a huge fan of the way Sekiro just wanted you to parry a lot of things, instead of letting you space around them like you could in other Souls games.
Before I write anything I'm not saying anyone is wrong and I am right. This is just my opinion and everyone likes what they like at the end of the day.
Intertia:
Funny enough one of the first games I learned to make was asteroids. However I'm not a fan of inertia in shmups it can be quite irritating when you move in one direction and want to go in another but your ship has built up momentum in the opposite way 👿.
Shops in shmups:
Personally at my age I don't like the thought of 'grinding' in any video game. Sure, in my 20s or whatever it wouldn't matter but now I'm much more likely to feel like my time is being wasted in a game that purposefully sets up grinding. Some games can pull it off but it's very very rare.
All killer no filler:
Shmups are action games and I do play them for the action however one of my most favourite games of all time is starfox64 and there's plenty of times where you can pick a spot and not engage but that game manages to pull it off without being boring. (I know it's a rail shooter). I do think throwing too much at the player from stage 1 is a very fast way too lose players before they can get used to the controls etc of your game.
Cinematics:
I prefer short and sweet and not too often. One game that I can think of that does have storied moments which I really do like is Gunbird 1. I think that game does pull off the right blend of story and action in a shmup.
Power ups needing ammo:
Personally I'm not to concerned if it has ammo as long as the supply is high enough on the power up front. I find it more annoying if you lose your power ups in a game and then get stuck in checkpoint hell because your base ship is so underpowered.
Over healthed enemies:
I hate feeling like I'm tickling an enemy to death with a pea shooter. Over healthed enemies is quite annoying.
Simon says gameplay:
Yeah not a fan. I think fight n' rage is a good example of a game which avoids this.
Edit: Formatting.
In the case of starfox 64, I think the game is actually nice and dense gameplay wise. There are not too many sections that come to mind that you are just floating around with nothing to do. To the contrary actually, what makes Star Fox 64 level design really compelling is that there are often too many enemies on screen for fox to be able to kill them all, so you are playing this constant game of catch up and target management. So yeah I think on the gameplay density scale SF64 is really rich.
@@TheElectricUnderground It does have quite a few moments where you are flying around for longer than 5 seconds though. It's not like full on no breaks what so ever. Plus the story moments are there as well giving the players multiple breaks. I love the pacing in that game though.
One game I played in the last year that used inertia effectively and it worked well with the game design is Extragalactica. Along with analog controls. It took getting used to but I really had some fun with that game as did some others. And it plays nothing like a euroshmup otherwise. I do agree that inertia completely alters the design and is extremely hard to pull off well. Not to mention a feature that turns many off. So I wanted to mention how solid a job the dev did with that game as one of the few that pulled it off as well as I could imagine.
Junkie I am REALLY EXCITED (all caps shows my excitement) that you brought up analog control. Because this is the *Number 1* red herring when it comes to inertia feeling good. What I mean is that it is entirely possible to have a shmup with fully analog control that does not have inertia and have it feel awesome. I have been saying for a very long time that shmups should start to embrace analog controls more, they are not euro by nature. They only become so when you shove inertia on top of them., like they have to be a package deal. So for House of Bullets I actually added full analog control to the analog stick movement, but without inertia and it's pretty sweet. I've also convinced a dev of another upcoming shmup to add analog controls! So definitely I am for shmups having more analog stuff going on (like twin sticks) just get that inertia outta here lol.
Hey! Allow me a point of critique: I find it weird that you say that the possibly GOOD elements that euroshmups have established (like shops and analog controls) "are not euro by nature" or "don't necessarily have to be euroshmup". This thought seems to follow a logic like "If it's good (at least possibly), it can't be euroshump. Euroshmup is just all the bad". Of course one can use the term like this. But why not say that euroshumps brought something good to the world of shmups too? I think the problem with your use of the term euroshmup is, of course, not that it degrades a specific region, but even worse: it degrades the whole "Western design philosophy" of shmups :D
I haven't played any post-2000 Euroshmups so idk if they still do it, but in the 90s it was fairly common for them to have really funky sidebars too (see Banshee, Tyrian 2000 and the DOS/JAG ports of Raiden). These had a pretty ornate, 90s Euro mechanical look to them and I think they were supposed to look like they were part of the interface in the player ship's cockpit, but they had a tendency to be cluttered with stats relating to the Euroshmup mechanics and lots of other pointless info, so they are largely useless despite their size (the Raiden one takes up a third of the screen).
Oh I remember these as well ha. I think they can be ok since shmups that are not rotated do have empty screen space. But also a lot of euroshmups are crazy aspect ratios to begin with, which can definitely lead to issues ha. DOJ on ps2 has this cool map bar on the side though, so even Japanese shmups will do this sometimes.
there were two main reasons for these bars: #1 in case of ports, euroshmups developers didn't know any better about how to yoko a tate game (even black bars at the sides of the screen seemed out of their reach) #2 they struggled with frame rate, so a huge bar was a convenient way to reduce the scrolling portion of the screen (in facts I'd say that one of the defining features of the euroshmups of old was a frame rate of around 25/30 fps rather than a solid 60)
I disagree about inertia being a problem, but not in shmups, rather, in platformers. Since SMB1 was brought as an example, I'd like to mention how SMB1's inertia is something I feel really makes it special as a game. Platforming is more of a focus in it than most later Mario games, and that's where inertia works really well - my favorite level in all of Mario is 7-3 from the Japanese SMB2, starting out as a trampoline stage, but there's a section at the end where wind starts blowing and you have to very carefully platform on firebars. However, if you weren't so quick, you can notice another way to get through the section - build up a run on the coin platform right before it and then jump across the safe blocks to the goal. If you manage to build up a good run and pull off jumps precisely, you will barely avoid the last firebar and beat the stage. I feel like dialing down the inertia in the later games was one of the decisions that made entries starting with 3 worse than 1/2JP to me, as it just makes moments like those less interesting, replacing it with a really easy to build up P-Meter in 3. Either way, great video!
This might sway you my friend. So platformers like SM1 are an interesting example because interia in a platformer can be a fun mechanic situationally, and I think that's the key. So for SM1, I think having ice stages and wind stages that introduce an interia style mechanic could be a fun alteration of the core gameplay, but I think having the interia there all the time is the mistake. For one it really does cut down on precision and the possibility of stages that require a lot of really precise platforming. I think SM3 figured this out. SM3 removes the inertia from the base, but there are still ice stages and stuff where it makes a return but in context. So basically all of SM1 is an ice stage lol.
@@TheElectricUnderground That's a very fair point, I can see why that would be the better solution, even if my favorite part of 3 is the ice world
I think having like plot stuff or story stuff in a shmup could be cool. IF ITS OPTIONAL. Like the backstory of Ketsui is super cool and I’ve always thought having it expanded on would be really neat in like a separate story mode. Like keep the same levels, add some extra story but have that be called story mode, and keep arcade mode uninterrupted. Because I love story, but unskippable cinematics or story portions should be illegal lol
I think Hell Blasters does a good job of this by having its own story mode with additional training stages, but then also having its own arcade mode too with only stages and collectible endings.
I agree here for sure. Optional is a smart move. One game that does this well actually is radiant silvergun! silvergun has a campaign mode and an arcade mode, so you can choose what you want to go with and if you want to get right to the action, hop into arcade.
@@TheElectricUnderground The game I immediately thought of was Hazelnut Hex. I like it so much, yet unless I'm missing something you have to slow down then skip through the dialogue of every boss every time you load them up in stage select. Yuck.
Touhou handles this really well. 100% skippable cutscenes(most have a dedicated Skip button) that don't have anything you need to know to play the game, but with amusing dialogue, that offers an optional breather between sections. Typically I will let the cutscene play out if my nerves are shot and I need a break between sections.
@@76mmM4A1HVSS oh yeah. I'm all for scenes and things if they can be skipped, all the moreso if they are humorous. I like the dialogue in Hazelnut He . It's just that you have to go through 5+ seconds of skipping before every attempt
I think One of the big reasons of that name is because in europe we did not had arcade companies in the Middle 80s ,consoles arrived até leAst 2 years Later than América/japan and we had only early dos gaming, zc Spectrum and c64, Amstrad CPC. Weak machines with most of the games having 1 fire Button. The combinations off all those factors created the euroshootemup. Game companyes in europe lacked the experiênce and technology to make hardcore shootemups.just look at xenon2 . In spite of being garbage was a commervial hit in amiga. we did not have Better in those computers.
Yes I think this is it as well. EU did not have arcades, at least not many, so their basis of design was more rooted in home consoles and PC games where saving and progressing was the main thing, rather than focused play sessions of repeated design.
@@TheElectricUnderground Oh we for sure had arcades! Just not many native arcade developers, like Pedro said. It was all Japanese and U.S. games on our arcade floors.
You've hit the nail right in the head. Convoluted controls were one of the reasons euroshmups were what they were. If you don't have the luxury of a second fire button, you have to come up with something different in order to smart bomb/select your weapon or something.
All killer, no filler is such an important motto that goes largely ignored nowadays. It's the reason I tend to dislike rouguelites too, since they're filler disguised as endless gameplay. Bruh, I don't want to sit through hundreds of variables in the hopes that one will be anywhere near as good as a scenario designed by an actual human being. All I want is a meticulously crafted experience that won't lbe longer than necessary, and with the depth to remain fun even after a hundred playthroughs.
really interesting video, especially as a game-dev - it's very helpful!
I'm really happy to hear that!!!! reaching game devs is def one of my goals
@@TheElectricUnderground I discovered your channel recently and have been going through your older videos.
I love how thoroughly you go into the mechanics etc , watching the turtles review right now (I bought that myself on switch and only played it once or twice, sadly.. finding myself agreeing with your views on it)
I once heard on your Sifu livestream that you said it have euroshmup element.
I did indeed. It has a lot of them ha.
I totally agree with your definition of "euroshmup", especially what you say about "geometrical design" (like Raptor, where all enemies attack in a straight line...really annoying).
But the worst of all I think is that fucking mania that the smallest enemies need more than a single shot to die, it takes away intensity and frenzy in exchange for being boring and hateful.
As for inertia, a good implementation example would be Exerion, where the game flows around it.
Very good video!
Oh yes high hp little popcorn enemies are a crime against humanity. Like why have popcorn enemies and yet they don't die lol. It makes no sense. If I had my way such a design choice would result in fines and prison time.
can you do a video about 2 player Vs shmups? like the Rondo series or other Vs stuff? would be really entertaining since no one ever talks about them..
There is change air blade, twinkle stars sprites, and that recent indie vs shmup called rival mega gun
@@JohnshiBRPG Let's not forget Seihou Kioh Gyoku. Also, Fools Rush In, a game by JynX based on Touhou 03 but with own mechanics.
Oh that would be cool!! Yeah I should because there are a lot of cool ones like twinkle star, rival megagun, etc. That's a great idea.
"Euroshmup: If you can get away with not engaging, it's usually like really gud." LOL that sounds like the logic that went into Ninja Gaiden 2 Sigma, the bad version of NG where most of the level is devoid of enemies and feels more like an rpg rather than an action game. It seems that all Koei action games follow a ruleset that's similar to Euroshmup, but applied to beat em ups. Main difference is that you are overpowered in Koei games but all the enemies have way too much health & it gets boring hacking enemies that feel like training mode dummies.
Your opinion is wrong! Ninja Gaiden 2 Ligma is a good game.
I love KoeiTecmo warriors games. They have their place as 3D beat ‘em ups imo
I think I see what's happened here. You (and others like you) have latched on to a particular style of shooter, one that emphasizes precise dodging, intense gameplay and tons of shit flying across the screen at all times, and decreed it to be the 'one true shmup' and that all other styles are inferior. basically, you've taken what should be a subjective opinion about what kind of game you like and framed it as an objective measure of a games quality such that how 'good' a shooter is is based on how well it conforms to a particular set of traits, whilst also deriding traits you happen to not enjoy as 'bad game design' or 'based on inferior western design principles'. Inertia is not a bad game mechanic, Sonic the Hedgehog would not be fun without it, and you could make a shmup that uses it (Defender and Sinistar are good examples of this) you may not personally like it, but that doesn't make it bad. Shops and upgrade systems, and expanded story elements are also not inherently flawed or unsuited to shooters, they have been proven to work in most other genres of action games. Additionally, I think that most of the bad games aren't bad because they're 'euroshmups' they're bad because they're bad, they're not based on 'inferior' design principles, they're not based on game design principles at all.
This video does come across as elitist, especially as instakills and general high difficulty are seen as important parts of the genre whilst 'accessibility' is rarely even discussed. maybe if shmup fans weren't so narrow minded, this genre might have seen a resurgence in the same way as 2D platfomers and Metroidvanias.
I was prepared to learn something like what makes a good and enjoyable japanese shmup, instead I got something more like "muh taste is superior and everything else automatically make it the worst"
@@Dawn-Shadeit was just 17 minutes of weeb rambling, worst of all it could end up mixed with real usefull videos for videogame design like those Masahiro Sakurai makes.
Oh God, yes inertia in a shmup is the bane of fun gameplay. I think your point that this very issue ruins the design of the game from then on is bang on, very insightful!
I have one bugbear in some of the lower quality Japanese-designed Shmups and that is when your ship moves faster diagonally than it does horizontally or vertically. Once again any attempt to dodge patterns or enemies is thrown out the window when you jerk spasmodically because of a diagonal press. I don't think I have ever seen it in an Arcade release but it was common enough in old console releases, even from companies such as Taito; all the Darius games in the Console Cozmic Collection for example display this annoying tendency to different degrees. M2 emulated it correctly too, as they are the same in the originals.
Oh charles the faster diagonal movement is such an interesting topic. I'm actually open to this because it seems to work pretty well in games like garegga where you need to macro around stuff and grab medals, though that could also be accomplished with some kind of speed up button while keeping the control uniform. That's an interesting one, still thinking about how I feel on it.
@@TheElectricUnderground imo if it's a dad shmup then moving faster diagonally is fine
I realise I might be an outlier on this one, as I personally find this particular problem even worse than poor lag. Funny, I hadn't noticed it on Garegga however, but then I think the problem is more noticeable on older horizontal shmups that have many environmental hazards to tightly squeeze through while also trying to avoid fast moving and perhaps poorly signposted sudden enemies and attacks.
Funnily, the 'faster diagonal movement' quirk was also a thing in many older first person shooters like Wolfenstein 3D, Doom and Duke Nukem 3D.
Honestly, if you have to implement RPG mechanics into an action game, your game probably needs to be reworked. Unlike turn-based games, how good the player character is is entirely dependent on the player's skill. In this sense, action games by default already has an internal leveling system; it's just that instead of improving the stats of the player character, it's the player themselves who is leveling up and mastering the game mechanics to play more effectively.
What ends up happening when you try to put an RPG system into an action game is one of the following. The player naturally becomes overleveled, allowing them to play badly without being punished. Alternatively, the player takes the lazy way out, grinding for more levels or better equipment or more healing items instead of learning how a boss works. Either way, they are not really engaging with your systems and mechanics. On the other side of the spectrum, a player can be very skillful at the game, but because they are underleveled, a boss battle is dragged out into a massive test of endurance that ultimately ends with the player's loss. So even though the player learned how to play the game, they get punished just because they didn't do the tedious chore of grinding for levels.
Is it possible to make RPG mechanics work well in an action game? I'm sure it can be done. But this tends to be the exception rather than the rule. In most cases, it will encourage the wrong behaviours and punish the right ones. Furthermore, because the possibility for the player to overlevel is there as a failsafe, it leads to lazier game design where most of the difficulty tends to be pretty cheap or artificial.
On a different note, I'm so glad you pointed out the Simon says design philosophy. It leads to very defensive, passive, reactionary gameplay, since you can't do anything except follow the developer intended way to beat the boss. I wouldn't even say it's a predominantly western thing, since a prime Japanese example is the Legend of Zelda franchise. Once again, there's also a compounding effect here: forcing the player to dodge all of the boss's attacks once again leads to lackluster game design. You want to make sure even the weaker players are able to make it through the fight, so the patterns tend to become really easy. (Or if they don't even bother to do that, the fight becomes a complete mess.)
A good action game would let the player set the pace of the boss fight, or at least let the player and the AI take turns to control the fight. This encourages players to try out different strategies. Maybe for the first time, the player picks a more defensive approach. Then on a repeat playthrough, they play more aggressively since they can react better to the boss's attacks, maybe even being able to speedkill the boss. This is something that I noticed from playing Rabi Ribi, that the game gives the player a lot more control of boss fights.
Speaking of which, Rabi Ribi is what I consider to be a game that successfully blends (Japanese) shmup design principles into a different game genre, showing that it is not only possible to do so, but also how much better games can be if they actually looked into Japanese shmup design. A lot of my gripes with modern games tend to be a result of euroshmup design manifesting in these other genres. Or rather, the common game design philosophy is pretty awful, and euroshmups are simply one example of it.
Notice how in this comment, I didn't even specifically address shmups, but games in general. It's infuriating to see how a game could be so much better, but it is held back because of so many basic mistakes. I don't expect every game to be a Japanese shmup, nor do I expect every game to be perfect. Even Rabi Ribi or shmups like Crimzon Clover aren't without flaws. But it just feels like developers nowadays have their focus in all the wrong places, and the players should forgive and expect mediocrity.
One last thing, I've never realised the ripple effect in euroshmup design. How one bad design decision snowballs into bad game design as a whole. This was a very astute observation that I wanted to highlight. These abstract game design videos are honestly my favourites, since I always learn something new!
Are you familiar with the Gunvolt series? Does it also have this "euroshmup" problem of being a Simon says design.
Speaking of Rabi Ribi, have you tried the dev's new game called Last Command?
Exactly lunaria, the problem with using rpg mechanics in a shmup, especially leveling, is that you are taking a blowtorch to replayability essentially. Because what ends up happening (as is the case with rpg) is that the early game is stale and grindy and then by the late game you are OP as hell and 1 shotting all the enemies. I actually think this is why even basic powerups have fallen out of favor in the genre, because they cut down on the fun factor of the early stages.
@@soratheorangejuicemascot5809 I'm not familiar with Gunvolt, sorry.
Haven't played Last Command yet but I'm really keen to try it!
@@TheElectricUnderground That exact thought came across my mind while I was writing up that comment! I've found myself enjoying shmups more when they relied less on power ups (even eliminating them completely), whereas those that put a heavy emphasis on power ups (like earlier shmups with multiple weapons) tend to be less enjoyable.
@@soratheorangejuicemascot5809 I've played Last Command through a good chunk of chapter 3. Gotta say, I don't think it comes anywhere close to Rabi Ribi.
This video is actually pretty relevant to Last Command: the entire premise of a snake bullet hell game was just too far-fetched to begin with. And the design issues start to snowball from there. Continuous movement and an increasingly large hitbox don't mash well with danmaku at all.
It is pretty innovative, I'll give it that; the inclusion of a dash, analysis mode (AKA focus mode), and active modules (that work kinda like bombs) makes the basic Snake gameplay a lot more interesting.
But as you play, you'll quickly realise it's not really danmaku to begin with, because you're not dodging a Touhou pattern like this lol. Instead, the bullets are few and massive, and more and more gimmicks are introduced to make up for this. There are a few patterns with a lot of bullet spam (and the bullets are still huge), which forces you to use analysis mode to dodge, but those are few and far between.
The gimmicks don't add difficulty in a meaningful way. Instead of making the action more interesting or testing your mastery of the mechanics, they just make you multitask. For example, doing mental sums or reading the words on the bullets, while you're busy trying to dodge bullets and collect data.
In terms of refinement, it is very rough around the edges. Nothing like what Rabi Ribi does. Some of the hitboxes are bigger than the sprites, and I've encountered this multiple times. For example, Gardening's thorny vines and Thousand Faces's cards. I can clearly see the empty space between me and the sprite during the death animation, since the game physics is paused.
The game sometimes warn you of bullets entering the screen, but it's not consistent. It's easy to go close to the edge of the screen to collect data, only to get struck by a massive bullet coming in without warning. Even when the game warns you, the patterns tend to be pretty spammy, so it doesn't really help. More importantly, bullets that spawn in within the screen are not telegraphed well. Worse if the warning is on the huge boss sprite or underneath a piece of data. It's not uncommon to suddenly have a bunch of bullets spawn directly under you.
Speaking of which, the game can be really random. Data pieces are randomly spawned, sometimes near the boss who is shooting bullets, or over one of the spots where bullets spawn in. In a few boss fights, there is a phase where the bullets just linger on screen in place, and the data can spawn on top of those bullets. And you can't spawn more data without collecting the current piece of data on screen.
Random patterns can also screw you over. The boss I'm currently on can disable your dash within a region (in one phase, it's the entire screen), so if you get trapped randomly, your only options are to eat the hit or bomb (if you even equipped bombs to begin with).
On the topic of dashing, there really should be a circle around you to indicate where you will dash to. In the heat of the moment, it's hard to tell where your dash will end, and it's easy to over- or underestimate it. All it takes is a ring superimposed on the player's sprite to improve the quality of life tremendously.
The energy meter should also be placed near your sprite, because it's hard to look at the corner of the screen to see if I can bomb when I have to watch all over the screen for bullets.
Honestly, I was nervous about picking this game up, since I didn't see how this could work out well. To some degree, the game exceeded my expectations, but it ended up not being that fun to play IMO. At least, it wasn't boring.
It's also worth noting that CreSpirit seems to do more on the art side, rather than the game design itself. So, I was also unsure of how good the game would be since GemaYue isn't involved this time.
I think Last Command is worth trying out at least, since it's such a novel game concept. While it's not my thing and the lack of polish certainly doesn't help to elevate my impressions of it, I don't really regret giving it a shot.
I really love these kinds of videos, thanks man
Enjoyed this video, inertia is definitely a feels bad Euroshmup mechanic for sure.
damn right my friend! It's all fun and games until someone adds inertia lol, then it's torture and pain.
I use Time to Beat as consideration for shmups I want to work towards clear in, but it's the absolute inverse. I want a strong game with under 40 minutes time to play, ideally under 30.
I do the same thing actually ha. I look at a shmup that's about an hour (unless it has loops) and think, uh oh this could be a mess. It's just because the shmup genre is generally very intense and it's very hard to sustain a high intensity level design for an hour. It's been done, but it is not easy.
@@TheElectricUnderground As one of the only humans I assume still plays Sol Cresta from time to time, I've actually tried starting to speed run it because it's a long game. Its funny, my favorite thing about the game is breaking its mechanics by abusing bullet time and formations, and now I'm trying to use slow motion as little as possible just to get the clear down.
Ironically, Shmups, rail shooters, rhythm action and a few other similar genres where (assuming you don't die) the game takes a mostly fixed period of time to play though are the only ones where a length estimate can truly be reliable and meaningful, even though these are probably the exact opposite type of games these sites are mostly used for.
Somewhat related, but I think one of the reasons Andro Dunos 2 was the Shmup of the year for me last year is because it looks and sounds like a Euroshmup at first glance, but then turns out to be a really tightly balanced game. Tight controls, weapons with enough oomph, fun bosses. I grew up with a Commodore Amiga, and pretty much every shmup on that platform is a Euroshmup, and it's kinda sad in hindsight to see top 10 lists with games like Xenon 2 on them (purely because of the music), though I will say that Banshee is still a fun game, even though it's an inferior 194X clone.
Yeah I got the same impression. I looked at the game and was thinking, uhh oh is this gonna be euro, but it wasn't! It really did play very well and was a ton of fun. Yeah that's why you can't always tell just by looking, you got to get your hands on the game (in most cases). Some shmups are so obviously euro you can tell from footage lol.
Xenon 2 is the most overrated Amiga game. There’s far better shmups, like Hybris for example.
i really liked some euroshmup...Project-X and Sturmwind, to name a few :P
Yeah i think there can be some fun euroshmup games, but in these cases I think it's more like you enjoy them DESPITE their euro design, rather than specifically because of it ha. Like I used mario 1 as an example in the vid. I really like mario 1, but the movement interia in that game I would love to see removed.
@@TheElectricUnderground more or less... u nailed it
I'm coming back to the genre of shmups because it's probably the easiest type of game to MAKE; that doesn't excuse garbage though and I used to really enjoy the "classic era" shmups when I was a kid (I even remember Raiden it was the first or second one they had at the Chinese takeout). So I return and learn about "bullet hell" which took a part of those original mechanics, cranked it to 11, and built everything around the concept of dodging.
However, that wasn't what I used to enjoy about the older games... to me even though they were difficult I always viewed it more as a "power fantasy" type of game. The ludicrous weapons and explosions, tons of enemies that die in a single hit, etc. ALL of this is in line with a power fantasy... look at Contra that had "Rambo" like characters that FELT like badasses, but it was also difficult; it is an aesthetic and feeling as much as anything else. I believe these two concepts (difficulty and power fantasy) can coexist.
So first, I wonder what I could contribute that doesn't simply copy the new bullet hell style or the flawed gems of the past. If I love these types of games, but bullet hells aren't for me, then what can I offer for someone like myself? What other direction could the genre be nudged towards? Ikaruga seems divisive, but some mechanic like that which adds strategy might be necessary... I would need something else to focus on if it isn't on dodging; something that adds depth and difficulty. Any thoughts or things you guys would like to see in a game that doesn't exist? You all have more experience with modern titles than I do. If I'm going to spend the time to finish a game I want to ADD something of value to the genre; I can get what I wanted to learn from a prototype so at that point it is no longer about me.
As for the power fantasy and pick ups (which present a design problem) I would like to have some novel solution that addresses it, but absent that some clever tricks can be used. First, the actual difference in power of the weapons can be minmal, but you use things like sound effects, lighting, screen shake, animations to make one FEEL more powerful. Your first gun could have a slow fire rate but long tails that deal damage, covering the SAME space on the screen as if you increased the fire rate. To a certain degree the hitboxes of YOUR weapons don't always have to match perfectly with the sprite. Kind of an illusion but if you don't know how the sausage is made the best games use these tricks ("coyote time" in a platformer, the first bullet in an fps from an enemy always misses, etc).
You could increase or guarantee odds of pick ups if the player has none, and if a bomb system or "hyper drive" system is in place these could be refilled on death. I also like the model where you don't start over but keep going while losing a life; it fits better into the idea of a power fantasy. Another option could be your ship's explosion on death kills everything on the screen... the point being you can rig the game so it is only moments that you feel vulnerable instead of feeling that way for most of the time... which also fits well with a power fantasy.
I don't think one hit kill would be a good fit, and I don't think a life system has to be a bad thing. First, I look at it as a new piece that could interact in a novel way. Maybe you have to balance your damage with health, where good players would want to do this as little as possible and take risks to maximize damage. Maybe you can optimize it at moments where you otherwise wouldn't have enough enemies on the screen to do a chain, with the risk being they live longer and fire more (risk vs. reward). Just spit balling.
I also don't think RPG like mechanics have to be terrible, but much of it does seem like an odd fit (plus it exponentially increases the work load so not a good fit for a solo developer). At the very least, having to stop to choose really seems to harm the flow. That feeling of flow seems to be everything in the new games, from the bullet patterns, to the layout of enemies that causes you to weave back and forth. That much needs to be preserved even if doing so isn't primarily for the purpose of dodging.
Thoughts? Any examples of games with novel mechanics? Any examples that handle weapon upgrades in a way that avoids the usual traps? Most of my experience is in art and music and I could lean heavily into that (I like the hand drawn aesthetic)... most of the themes seem the same (space, military, something that flies). Anything unique is preferable (open to suggestions).
I've been thinking about this more, and I even considered options like in UN Squadron for the SNES where the powerups are purchased in between levels... none of it avoids the core issue though: the players who need powerups (new and less skilled players) are less likely to have them than the players who are past the point of simply surviving. It skews any attempt at balance in the opposite direction, where if anything the better the player the more difficult the challenge needs to be. The end result is you are forced to balance around the low end and bore the hell out of your core audience.
Best case scenario, using the tricks I listed in the first post only serves to minimize the problem but it remains. Making the weapons have a risk vs reward baked in (like spread) is a given and I don't see it as solving the issue. I want a novel solution. Anyone have an example of a game with a different take on power ups?
@@naejimba How about plot-related powerups? Think about a plot intermission in RefleX finale, where the true form of your ship wakes up and you get infinite energy and six cool energy wings but lose all your armor. Or Thunder Force 4, where you take part in a huge battle and most of your comrades die, and then you have a small cutscene where they install new weapon on your ship. Or Xbox 360 mode of SDOJ where you get a powerup during Hibachi battle. It would be interesting to see a game that uses this more often, not just once, and maybe even with multiple routes and different powerups depending on route.
I thought for sure you were gonna say "Enter The Gungeon" at 14:34. At least I guessed the offending mechanic correctly.
You would have been right for sure, as Gungeon definitely has this issue. I did show gungeon earlier when I talked about the low default power and over focus on powerups, so that counts I think ha.
@@TheElectricUnderground A "bullet hell" game developed by a studio called "Dodge Roll Studio" was doomed to have poor fundamentals from the start.
Another game that I question if its a euroshmup or not is SORA and SUGURI. It got health/shield bar, the dash is hard to control if you are not utilizing the dash cancel(its my favorite mechanic in the game) and different kinds of weapons to use. Somehow, I feel like its closer to Hellsinker . I ain't really sure.
I'll have to tell you what I think when I get around to playing Sora and reviewing it! It looks like a cool game :-) It doesn't strike me as euroshmuppy but I'll def comment on its design when I review it.
Ahh ty, I heard the name in a few shump channels I watch and did not know much on it.
This was a good deep dive
Coincidentally, I do find myself recommending the Sky Force games to beginners and…erm..whatever you call my condition of playing shooters since I was a baby and yet still an amateur. Currently we’re not in a era of arcade ports with limited lives and continues. We’re in a free play arcade emulation era where we can quarter feed most shooters, save scum through checkpoint games, and even toggle off loss of power ups. Thus, it’s naturally instinctive to not do what is required to, both, master a certain game and to develop skills globally: replay it over and over again. Sky Force..em…forces you to replay. There is no other way to complete it. You have to play levels over and over again. It’s baked into the design. Do you start off way to weak? Yes. Unfortunately there is built in padding because of it. However, that also plays into why I recommend it. It forces you to practice. The other game you showed, Sine Mora, is hot garbage, through and through. Side note, whenever you referred to euro shooters in the past, I totally thought you meant Amiga and Atari ST developers. 😂 I’m showing my age.
Oh I absolutely agree on the need for real continuation systems in shmups. Funny enough this is one design element that euroshmups have gotten right that japanese shmups need to learn. That's because non-japanese players don't naturally play the 1 credit mentality - even in the arcade funnily enough. So we need to be forced to play that way through continue systems. One game that nails this, that is not a euroshmup is zeroranger! So I would say when you are recommending new players to the genre, zeroranger is a great swap in title in sky force's place :-)
@@TheElectricUnderground I need to just build myself a PC so I can play these steam games. Alas, I deal with everyone else’s “Window’s update has caused us to close up shop for the day” issues at least once a day and….ugghhh…
Great explanation man!
One that you kind of eluded to (with normal enemies) but you didn't really come out and say it, is bosses that take 100 billion hits to kill. Soldner X games, yes, I'm talking about YOU! I really wanted to like those games but c'mon man. Another one you forgot is when you can't tell the difference between what is in the background and what is in the foreground. Soldner X games, I'm talking about you again, especially stage 2 of the first game.
Oh damn I should have mentioned the lack of distinction between foreground and background ugh! That's another big issue that can get looked over. Another one related to that is bullet layering, where the player bullets are on the top layer hiding the enemy bullets lol.
Personally, I don't mind against esoteric videos. Watched all of them 😁
Bless you mishiko. The more abstract design sort of vids are some of my favorite, they just don't seem to please the alg that much ha. Subscribers seem to like them though :-)
I think the euro shooters just feels ways different, not so hectik and colourfull. More plane. I really like them, but they feel like a subgenre that is minor to bullethell. Is there a game you could/would put in both cathegories?
I like when you say "baby *something*".
Great points! *taking notes*
yeah calling stuff baby is always fun ha. Baby mode is one of my favs.
Nothing worse than having a pissy peashooter in a shmup
it's pretty mean when devs do that ha. Turns me off right away.
I remember dodging my way through the whole of Darius Twin, and then hiding at the bottom of the screen on the last level because it's a (mostly) clear zone.
100% agree on the dodge roll thing. All those otherwise good metroidvanias that ALL have a dark souls style dodge roll.
Same frustration with every post KOF / Darkstalkers fighting game where it is a given that you have a dash that replaces precision movement and footsies with rushdown mixup.
I'm currently having a plan of making a bullet hell game called "Kat O'Mayhem" this video helps me!😁
As a lot of people have said, the PC roots of European game design have always seemed to be the reason they have the issues that they do, as the immediate necessity for accessibility and fun in an arcade game isn't so present.
When I think about euroshmups, my mind immediately goes to the Sega Genesis and Battle Squadron. The game has some interesting ideas, but chases them at the expense of fun. I've never liked games where I feel underpowered against bullet sponge enemies. It feels artificially difficult and unsatisfying.
Honestly, European game design is reflected in really ugly ways in the 16-bit era, and EA's Sega Genesis ports of Amiga games are prime offenders. Dark Castle, Risky Woods, Shadow of the Beast, Warrior of Rome, Battle Squadron, etc. really showcase games that sacfriced fun to varying degrees in favor of some design concept. Even some of the better European 16-bit games like Timeslip, Soldiers of Fortune, amd Firepower 2000 are less fun than they could be for the exact reasons you mentioned. Levels that have too much filler or take too long, weak weapons, limited recovery or continue options, and enemies that soak up way too much damage... they might been seen differently if there was no alternative, but Super Mario, MUSHA, Tatsujin, Soldier Blade, Gradius, etc. are right there. The European games that have ended up in my collection are definitely at the back of the line.
yeah 16 bit euroshmups were all over the place. They even made a nasty return on the GBA lol. There are some legendarily bad euroshmups on there like robotech and powerpuff girls. Powerpuff girls on gba is like legit broken (in a boring way, not a fun way.)
What game is the leopard character in the thumbnail from?
Sine Mora.
Don't fighting games (like KOF) also have dodge rolls? Do you have a problem with dodge rolls in fighting games too or is it just with singleplayer games? And can you give an example of a dodge roll in a game done right?
I'd love to watch a video exclusively done on dodge rolls, or more broadly on movement in arcade games.
As someone who has only been into shmups for a year, I'm thankful for this video because I've always been confused about the Euroshmup term.
And then I saw that Raptor Call of the Shadows gameplay and realized that I played a Euroshmup on my first PC some 20+ years ago lol.
I am very glad to help, because the term is more confusing these days since now a lot of european shmups are actually turning the corner and having more japanese influenced design. And then there are japanese studios with more euro design going on *cough R Type Final 2* so it's more about design principals than actual region of origin now.
Arcade games were designed to be instantly enjoyable and easy to understand to play with no instructions. And take your money as fast as posssible
Exactly! And it turns out that style of game design is extremely compelling in my book. :-)
Off topic but what shmup is the shrine miko from?
Sengoku Blade
@@boghogSTG Thank you
She is from the Aces series, you can play her directly in Sengoku Blade. Fun game but be warned, a really mean one! One of the hardest 2-alls I have ever seen lol.
@@swaglord7662 Sengoku Blade (Tengai).
Does anyone know Sengoku Blade (Switch ver.) has
Ain & Marion as secret character ?
What if we have inertia but we call it drifting? RALLYSHMUP
Yeah what's funny though is if you go all in with the inertia idea and really flesh it out, you basically need to leave the shmup genre completely and enter something like the racing genre. So now you have a racing game with guns, which sounds way more fun than a euroshmup with inertia.
@@TheElectricUnderground You just described Gearshifters, which I recently picked up on Steam as it looked like a fun mash-up of cars and shoot 'em up mechanics... it's alright but I prefer to feel more precisely in control, which is why I agree that inertia has no place in shmups!
As a preamble and so that there is no misunderstanding, I would like to specify that my comment speaks partially of the video game as a whole, it encompasses all genres (not only shmups).
Being from the old school (I grew up with Japanese games), I can only approve of your analysis which I find very fair.
Japanese development studios are the forerunners of a lot of things in gaming, and are at least a cut above when it comes to the quality of game design for most of their games. In addition, they are very good at creating new ingenious and playful concepts. Afterwards, everything is not totally rosy, some of their games, in particular the old JRPGs, have in my opinion aged very badly (kind of game which I have not played or at least not for a very long time), other more recent ones display a dated achievement and lag behind significantly technically, but in terms of gameplay many of their titles (in certain genres, I mean) are often far superior. Is it necessary to remember that the gameplay is the central element of a video game worthy of the name around which should revolve all the ingredients making up its experience, including graphics and music? Seeing what some developers are doing these days (currently), I think so. Coming now to shmups, just like action games (platformer, action/platformer, etc.), it is clear that they are practically untouchable, it is a genre in which they have always excelled, as evidenced by lots of old games (25-30 years old) that haven't aged a bit. That said, concerning the action/platform, platform and BTA genre, it must be recognized that the indie scene (neo-retro games) for a few years has nevertheless given us some very good games which do not have to be ashamed in front of their source(s) of inspiration from Japan (ex: Shovel Knight, Steel Assault, The Messenger, Cyber Shadow, Infernax, Final Vendetta, Fight'n Rage, SoR 4, etc). However, all the shmups I play are Japanese. I have of course tried a few that weren't, but for various reasons I didn't like them or at best I found them very average.
Regarding the very old euroshmup (70-80), these are games which were not necessarily aimed at the same public, it is a genre which made the heyday of microcomputers in Europe thus marking with a hot iron a generation of players. While I can conceive that some gamers still find enjoyment in playing such antiques, they are in my humble opinion totally obsolete. It was the beginnings of a new emerging genre that evolved greatly thereafter.
I agree Minimal that the euroshmups of the 80s and so forth had a time and place, but that context today has totally evaporated. Because now the euroshmup style design just sits in this really awkward middle ground where they are not accessible and story rich like an rpg, or even twin stick shooter, but they are not intense and challenging like an arcade shmup either. Their appeal is extremely limited now.
@@TheElectricUnderground We agree, personally, I have never been a customer of this genre or rather should I say sub-genre which is of very little interest (in my eyes).
3:03 shmups fans when Newton invented physics.
You should keep doing this kind of videos, I learnt alot.
Yes, you are right in that you are testing it correctly.
The developer's job during testing is to shut up, let the game do the talking and to take notes.
right the last thing you want from your playtester is to do exactly what you expect ha. That's just a waste of time, literally. You want the tester to try and circumvent your design.
this euro-shmup bashing is quite limited in the point of view. There is a distinct difference between the european gaming culture and the Japanese/US in the early 90s: the absence of Arcade in Europe. Arcades where never big in Europa, mostly because of the law - therefor also the console, with mostly action packed arcade games where not big in europe. The europe videogame culture was heavely connected with the micro computer and later, the personal computer scene - and therefor a hugh difference in the understanding, what a video, or better: a computergame should be. the elemental differences are: focus on long games, because of the hardwarelimitations of the GPU, the games usualy are not fast or fancy in grafics, but because of the power of the CPU, the games can handle complexe physics. also a lot of game developers came from the demo and nerd scene - in this scene, rpgs and adventuregames are hugh (rogue, hack, adventure, dungeons and dragons etc.) - putting all that together, ad the european obsession for dance music in the 90s, you get the pilosophy of a euro-shmup: long campains, permanent upgrade your charakter/ship, shops, inertia, a slower paste and the emphesis more on dodging, then shooting - they are just not arcade games.
Also also: i found it funny, that you bash the "tanks of enemies" while modern Danmaku games often don't even include popcorn anymore, but are just boss rushes with this gigant bosses, that need 1000000000 million hits
Real interesting point about inertia. It's always been the big flashing warning sign of the euroshmup, but I'd never really thought before about how a lot of the other problems with the genre then stem from there. Like, you basically /need/ to have shitty, boring bullet and enemy patterns, because if that aspect was what would be good, frenetic, exciting etc in an arcade style shmup, with the inertia it would be impossible to deal with.
(Also, nice to see some footage of Sky Force as an example of bad design. I can't tell you how much I loathe that game. Worst of the euroshmup mechanics combined with the worst of mobile game mechanics. Truly hideous piece of software.)
yes I hope this point connects with people because I think it's one of the most important. Basically inertia has a price. If you put it in your game it is going to cost the player accuracy and precision, by its very nature. So in order to offset that loss, now the dev will need to drop the complexity and intensity of the enemies and levels, I just don't see a way around this issue.
How about imposing yourself a challenge to play some games that are known to have inertia and use the inertia to your advantage? The comments section has some good picks.
It kind of goes back to my playing tennis with a stick analogy though ha. Yes, I can try to play tennis with a stick, but in reducing the precision of the controls the whole exercise has lost its appeal. So if I am going to play a game with interia, I'd want to play a game where that intertia fits into the games design and has systems that make sense. Essentially this boils down to a racing game ha, so if I start playing this weird shmup in-between I'll either drop the inertia and play a regular shmup or embrace the inertia and play initial D or something.
You need to find someone who likes euroshmups so you can fight them on a podcast lmao
Ha gameboy guru mounted a solid defense of them, maybe that could be a really cool episode. I'd be happy to bring him back on, he is one the the OG guests of the electric underground!
I don't think you really explained why inertia is bad. I remember in college, I made a demo of a game, and there was inertia in the movement, and one of the guys that played it found a powerup that made you faster, but he got excited because he thought it was going to take away the slipperiness, and no, it actually made it worse. I just always found it odd he was so frustrated he thought you should be able to move really fast and just immediately stop. Plan your movement better maybe? Coming from Mario Bros, it felt normal to me.
It sounds like you like difficulty, just not that particular type of difficulty, and you don't have a good reason why. In your tennis example, it would just become a different game if you used a stick instead. I'm not sure why testing your movement ability is worse than testing your spacing ability.
I think the best way to understand why inertia is bad (and how it could be good) is to just ask yourself what does it accomplish that input lag does not? What interesting gameplay dynamics are you creating with it? Because in racing games and most physics games the physics have both challenge and positive dynamics players can use to their advantage (think scandinavian flick), they also push those physics to an extreme instead of just being halfassed. Most shmups with inertia (not all, see Luftrausers) are exactly those halfassed kinda games - they take traditional spacing based shmups, dumb down spacing, dumb down patterns and dont add anything meaningfully different from input lag into the game. You get all the cons, none of the pros.
@@boghogSTG You start immediately where as input lag causes you to not start immediately, are you insane?
@@brandonkellner4053 You dont - inertia typically makes your ship slowly accelerate, forcing you to "dodge ahead of time". Though either way, you can simply add exit input lag, the point here is that these mechanics have to be distinctly different not on paper but how they impact gameplay dynamics
@@boghogSTG It changes acceleration immediately. You get an immediate difference. It's not really the start that matters as much as the stop anyway, which the same point applies. They are functionally different mechanics, and honestly, I wasn't really talking about shoot 'em ups, because he hates this mechanic in other games, too.
Also, you can have extremely long acceleration times which would make no sense with input lag.
Not a fan of euro shmups but I do enjoy sine mora ex....something about the time management I really enjoy. Plus the game looks spectacular.
"I'm playing a game where I pilot a solo ship with unlimited ammo against an entire fleet of robotic alien bees. When destroying some alien ships the only thing not completely obliterated is an upgrade module that perfectly and instantly installs onto my own weapon system simply by crashing my ship into it"
"Oh yeah, but your ship has no inertia. It's unrealistic"
I'm glad I'm not a youtuber, because to me the best 16 bits Amiga and Atari ST shmups are still trash compared to the Japanese shmups of the same era. I can't imagine the angry comments and death threats I would receive for saying it on a video. 😂
I love my Amiga but that’s one of the reasons why I bought a Megadrive in 1991.
Specific mechanics fail example: 3ds Samus Returns and Metroid Dread quick time react attacks. You're forced to use their stupid new move constantly, on every single critter in both games. Guess thirty years of Samus shooting bullets just isn't gonna cut it anymore!
Hellsinker is a euroshmup. It got long 1cc and doesn't let you credit feed like your typical arcade. Akashicverse is also a euroshmup.
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I hope I don't get attacked from saying such words.
I don't think that s totally accurate ha. They are complicated and crazy games, but they still focus on their core moveset and design, it just happens that their core moveset is massive and crazy. They are their own creatures, like character action shmups or something
What's the game at 6:57?
Enter the Gungeon.
That is enter the gungeon, a really popular twin stick shooter from a few years back and it is uber euro lol.
if people unsubscribed just because you said euroshmup then you don't need them lol
I know right lol! Seemed kinda hasty to me, though I m not sure how they are supposed to block me on TH-cam ha, that feature only works on the kids TH-cam app
Dude you have the best takes. Youre the only youtuber that shares my views of art. And while its not always great to be in an echo chamber it's nice to see that my takes are shared. (I say this after seeing a few of your videos it just hit me with this one)
7:29 what game is this?
This game is called Sky Force Reloaded I believe.
@@TheElectricUnderground it is, ty
the simon says aspect of sekiro is why I vastly prefer niohs combat which is fluid and dynamic and a playground to go as hogwild as you can pull off.
funny how it was a japanese game series that popularized the i-frame dodgeroll worldwide and even produced the most egregious example of forced rolling in recent gaming
it's not the size of the i-frame, it's how you use it ;-) I think this is an interesting point because sometimes it's not actually the mechanic itself, per say, but how it is included and used. i-frame dodges are a great example. If a game has really crappy movement and has a lot of patterns specifically designed to force you to roll, that is very euro. If the game has wild movement options and the i frame roll is just one of many options in the game and has various places where it may or may not be used, then that's more japanese and good ha. The context of mechanics is really important to keep an eye on for sure. Inertia is the one where I fail to see it benefit being worth its drawbacks, but you never know ha.
@@TheElectricUnderground "If a game has really crappy movement and has a lot of patters specifically designed to force you to roll, that is very euro."
So Elden Ring by Fromsoftware is euro, I see.
I don't know, I like all shooters, even these euro shmups. I mean most of the criteria for a euro shmup would mean that Asteroids, Moon Patrol, Star Castle, Lunar Lander, Missile Command and most of the late 70s early 80s arcade shooters fall in that category. The ones that started the shmup. Just my opinion, i guess I just don't care for made up subgenres. Happens with music and games too.
Yes many of these games are in fact euroshmups. I just spent an hour in a 5 on 1 battle on discord (the one being me lol) over this very subject. The point I hope to get across in this vid is that there are many games that have these design elements in them, sometimes because they are simply older and the genre was still developing, that doesn't mean the games themselves are bad. What it does mean though is that the games would be improved if these elements were removed and built upon. For example Mario 1. Mario 1 has inertia, which i think is a bad design decision. I still like mario 1 despite the inertia, not because of it. And then nintendo in later mario games figured out, oh inertia is a bad idea and removed it! So mario 3 onward no more inertia (or at least it's heavily reduced). Same can be said for something like astroids. Astroids is a fun game, but if you made a sequel to it that improves, you would want to address the euro choices and improve the basic formula.
@@TheElectricUnderground Geometry Wars!! Asteroids on crack! 👍🏿
What I hate most about Euro schmups is definitely the underpowered ships it takes a lot of shots even for basic enemies so better just to avoid them also padding in modern games is a thing.
Thank you so much for this video ! It helped me understand my own hatred for euroshmups.
The euroshmups add difficulty in the gameplay (movement/hitbox/weapons) while shmups add difficulty with bullet patterns / level design.
The euroshmups feels bad because the player is handicaped.
Japanese shmups feels good because it gives you all the best tools possible to overcome challenge.
This is key because what is important for japanese developpers is to give you a rewarding experience and limit your frustration.
The first time I played Dodonpachi was a revelation for me : I died not because of some stupid inertia, or unavoidable enemies. I died because I failed to take the living path that I could see at all time.
The purpose of a euroshmup is to overcome all the stupid lag and weights developpers put on on you.
The purpose of a japanese shmup is to overcome a fair challenge in the best condition possible.
Playing tennis with a stick is a great way to put it lol
Thank you my friend. Yeah I tried to come up with a really relatable analogy because often time when I critique stuff like this a common defense is, well it's not impossible ha. Sure, it's not impossible to play a shmup with a pile of inertia lag, but that doesn't make it a good idea ha.
I honestly have a hard time of thinking of Many Euroshmups that I can actually tolerate. There are a few I’m sure but generally that type sucks. Demonized is a great game though.
Me too Reagan. I don't play them often I'll say that much ha! Probably the closest for me is something like Mario 1 with its crazy movement interia. That game I like, but in spite of the movement inertia rather than because of it.
Ah, now I see why your and your friends' videos ignore amazing games like Tyrian - they're not to your tastes so they're "bad".
😂😂😂❤
You could apply this “Euro” moniker to any genre with its own set of grievances like....
“Euro 3D platformer”: Put a double jump to negate all challenge in the game because they’re afraid they might frustrate the player.
Throw a crap ton of mini games instead of building on the core gameplay etc
You really could my friend, and that's because the Japanese have been a step ahead with game design in most genres. I guess an exception could be something like real time strategy games and FPS ha, the west has been in the lead with those.
You could always hit the pause to stretch out the game yourself, but it is really not that simple to compact a poorly paced game. I mean, without the twitch chat, it is questionable how many people would “speedrun” a rpg with lots of walking and cutscenes.
Maybe that is the point. Developers realize that they can design games for streamers since it is the best advertisement. Slow ass games with cutscenes are heaven for them to read chat and sell their reactions. Then people will buy these games streamed by big streamers. On top of that, your evaluations of the game will be high jacked by the community experience, leaving you little to no space to look at the game on its own. Of course they loved games like that.
Tactics Ogre Reborn is the euroshmup of tactical rpg!!
Great video. My brother said he bought Sifu and said I should take a look at it. I immediatly saw a lot of flaws and thought this has probably not been developed y a japanese developer. To illustrate what I mean with this I searched for Euroshmup. Just perfect.
Check out NeverAwake. Might be a shmup you like.
Another subtle, yet EXCELLENT video, Mark. Very few people "break down" things in THE WAY you do it. I now totally consider Shredder's Revenge the "Euroshmup" of 2D brawlers🤣
I'm glad you liked it! I really enjoy doing these types of vids. And yes shredder's revenge absolutely is a 2d euroshmup, it's got it all. Inertia, simon says design, high hp enemies with hyperarmor ha.
@@TheElectricUnderground I think the hyper armor of enemies just took that game over the edge in terms of inept design.🤣
Reminds me of Gunz, and the fact E-Style was trash, K-Style was legit, and D-Style was that kid in the corner meme.