THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! You really did break this topic down and debunk false information spreaded by many other channels, promoting ATP forehands!! I am so tired of amateur males criticizing WTA forehands without understanding how a woman's body is built.
@@Powercise1 This is such old news. Been hearing this stuff for 20 years and that nonsense is getting debunked. Thanks for the comment but there wasn't anything in there that people should listen to.
@@Powercise1 "A girl taught correctly how to throw a ball young can throw a ball just as well as a boy" If you are referring to technical skills, there are many sports where you clearly can see that women athletes nowadays have throwing skills that previously used to be referred to as the "male" way of throwing. A typical example would be handball. But you assumption falls flat as soon as you compare the top athletes in f.inst. handball. The difference is staggering, especially when comparing upper body strength. This gives the men the option of a very compact motion, with extreme acceleration. This is simply not possible for women, and that should go without saying. How common among women are: 190+ cm with broad shoulders and major upper torso muscles? You mention Sabalenko. You could also have mentioned RG winner Swiantek. But as impressive as their FHs are, they're not anywhere near the men, and they're not technically as sound imo. Swiantek is perhaps the best example of a woman incorporating ATP-style elements, but compare her to f.inst. Jack Sock, Kyrgios or Sinner, and you'll notice the huge difference in acceleration.
Sorry but he is wrong, and can't just change the definition about breaking the plane. He is also wrong that this about a woman's body.... he confuses flexibility with strength. WTA does have some certain limitations that most people don't even know about.
Great video. I’ve studied ATP and WTA Forehands for years and I believe that, as with all shot, players get power from different sources. My doubles partner has relatively weak legs and strong shoulders and a really long upper and lower arm and crushes his serves with vastly different technique than what I use. The ATP Forehand is morphing into a throwing motion (Borg and Lendl started it and then Jimmy Arias and Agassi). If someone can’t throw well, use a WTA forehand with tons of hip rotation. Great video and explanations.
This is so interesting. Thanks for breaking this down. I've been working on my forehand for the past year and had some private lessons where one coach was obsessed with keeping my elbow out while another coach didn't obsess about it but was more focused on my swing path from take back to full extension through the ball for depth/court penetration. When you showed the Thiem video clip when he was young, I'm wondering if my elbow position is just a product of having weak shoulders. Is there an easy way to test if my shoulder stamina is "weak"? On the flip side, if I built up my should strength the right way, do you think my takeback path would naturally change?
Wow that whole elbow thing! I do think the WTA forehand is more simple and therefore a good technique for a lot of Recreational players...less to go wrong.
Interesting and useful video, MANY THANKS!! I noticed in the video that there is a tremendous difference in how far the instructor's elbows hang relative to his waistline (arms hanging relaxed, downward along the torso), when compared to the featured women. The instructor's elbows hang half-way to his waist, owing to a long torso and, perhaps, shorter upper arms. The featured women have elbows that come much further down toward their waists. This has to make a difference in how easy it is for the featured women to unite their elbows, with their arms straight out before them, as shown near the end of this video. I wonder, how does an individual's elbow position, relative to the height of their center of gravity (shoulder height for most males, hip height for most females) factor into their natural swing ?
Tom, would you mind post in some future vid a demonstration of yours hitting a spinned heavy high ball and also a low one under net level. I'd be eager to watch how much of your kinetic chain motion varies from when you hit at waist level. Thank you man. Pd: I've seen your vid of the "how to" on high balls but not in motion.
Super interesting.... makes a lot of sense too by the way! My daughter has been hitting ATP style from the get-go - probably since the age of 5. Definitely not the “usual” style if there’s such thing. The coaches in my area lack the experience understanding about the wide range of builds, different learning curves etc etc. so they categorize all the kids into a few categories like a cookie cutter solution. Most of the time this happens by age. (You 13? Here’s how you should look, hit and move - BY THIS AGE) And then there’s my daughter lol! She just turned 14 and by now has developed an absolute savage, Rafa / Alcatraz (esque) FH, hits huge balls BUT: it comes with a price (figuratively and literally speaking) First of all, building an ATP FH is extremely complicated especially for kids. While the stroke mechanics look decent while shadow swinging, there’s not enough strength to support the wrist (a weak point imo)So this causes wrist instability throughout the swing and not much needed to get that racquet face open or close slightly and there goes the point. So she is “paying” for the learning curve in the form of UTR points. This clearly sucks! Also paying with the ongoing criticism of “lack of footwork”... or lack of everything (coaches here are driven by negativity instead of focusing on positivity) The ball goes long, it’s bc “no footwork”. Even though, she is at the point now where she clearly fires every shot from the group up but when she cranks up the power, the wrist just can’t yet handle it. Quality video recording (slo-Mo) is my best friend. Record from all angles and analyze it to the T. This has helped us fine tune her issues (by Identifying the errors) that were related to the wrist, now she just needs to gain back the confidence when playing. Currently her biggest opponent on the court is herself lol. But I truly believe by the time she turns 15 everything will “catch up” and fall in place. By the way: just asked daughter to do the forearm test: 100% ATP so we had a great laugh...! Thank you for uploading and sharing your experience, this ensures me that I am onto something and that, we are on the right track.....! Thanks again!
great help for me to train my 11 year old boy.. I've been trying to have him copy ATP style and I guess it takes time for him to develop shoulder power to apply that Roger Federal technique..
I am a short man stature, thin, don't have a impressive shoulders. Every high ball with lot of spin it's so hard to hit. Should I try to copy a women's forehand for get more power and consistency?
The little elbow test was instructive. I’m a 61-year old female, but I cannot get my elbows to touch without bending my arms, which may explain why I gravitate to the ATP style forehand.
Imo there also might be a difference in how proficient men and women are at throwing, based on how much time they have devoted to learning the (most effective) throwing motion. Boys often devote more time than girls throwing balls aso in various sports and activities, and they take the skills related to this into tennis. It's not that tennis is the same as throwing, but if you are proficient at throwing, you will have learned how to coordinate the various parts of the kinetic chain in the throwing motion, being able to throw long, short, high, fast, slow aso. This is a huge advantage going into tennis, and will result in a more shoulder oriented (rather than hips oriented) motion I would assume.
I played a lot of organized baseball and did some pitching. Although the actual throwing motion is not the same I learned to make the ball curve, drop, slide and moved it around the strike zone. You learned to pitch to the count of balls and strikes and when to throw a safe pitch or go for the corner of the strike zone. You had to remember what batters didn’t like and what the were comfortable with. This was a big cross over skill when I was developing my tennis game.
This is the first time that somebody has explained to me why women and men "tend" to hit with one style or another, and it's so simple. More shoulder strength, you tend to lift your upper arm and elbow, and the racquet stays to the side. Less shoulder strength, upper arm and elbow stays down, the arm takes the racquet behind your body. Both work, and you use the one that feels more confortable and efficient. Great video.
I'm a woman, tall but with slim stature and play the WTA forehand. The elbow test fails on me though I don't really have broad shoulders or anything ^^. I actually think it is more about the strength you have in your shoulders, isn't it?
Forget about it!. No way of having weak shoulders with no less than 3 times a week of pullup bars at home for 4 months minimun. Started out quite a few years ago and even though you could spare a few months here and there for laziness your body&mind will never be the same. Your mind will demand to return return over and over. One of the best and natural dopamine shots after just a 25 min serious session.
@@ruggierojerolli Interesting theory my friend, but you must not forget that excessive pull up training will result in overdeveloped biceps that will interfere in the process of hitting a sound kinetic forehand. I myself have 16 inch biceps that often collide with my chest on my follow through. Instead I have found that a better approach is to work the bench press movement 6 times a week for 7 months minimum. This was recommended to me by the great Svetoslav "Svety" Elenkov, and while he has a well renowned pedigree in laziness, my body and mind have never faltered and have become the epitome of strength. As they say, find a way!
I think WTA forehand better for recreational players because it's hard to generate lag from ATP forehand for amateur players. WTA forehand helps to lag easy. This is for recreational men and women
Wow I never realised that was the reason why men and women had different forehands. That test you did at the end can also come in handy if you ever find yourself in Bangkok.
My coach has been treated me as a guy as he taught me to lift up the elbow and engage with more shoulder !! lol My shoulders aren't well built but I do have power. Just now, im playing like a man.
Does this mean a woman’s baseball or golf swing should be different a man’s swing. Doesn’t shoulder strength and flexibility contribute to the forearm touching thing? Sorry, your theory is fascinating but flawed.
@24trevor24 because different mechanics are required. Not the same movement as tennis, and maybe no alternative solution that works as well for females. They’ve found a tennis style that works for them. That’s why the do it. It’s not complicated.
Tom, My reasoning for why women hit forehands different to guys is coaches like you, who create limits on players based on thinking too much of themselves and not of their students. The mechanics of throwing and swinging are similar regardless of gender. I applaud your desire to help your students, but, please come down off of your pedestal and stop supporting the phrase “You throw like a girl.”
@@24trevor24 Dumbest comment of the year so far. I don't tell anyone how they should hit a forehand. People do what is comfortable for them and I help them to improve. Boys and girls start with very similar mechanics. Women and men gravitate to a different way of hitting, unless a coach like you gets in the way because they think they know better.
I always assumed that women hit flatter to generate more pace. That big circular swing always creates a flatter shot. For men, they can generate more pace with a shorter loop and they don't need that big looping swing except for Medvedev. And they generally hit a heavier topspin ball. The big looping swing is not what you want for the men's game because, it takes too much time to load up and swing. And you can easily get overpowered. For females, this is not a problem because they typically play further back and ball is traveling slower. There are a lot of females with broad shoulders and small hips on the WTA but they still have that big loopy swing. I don't think it's body type at all, it's more upper body strength and core muscles. Men have more upper body and stronger cores.
It doesn't create a flatter shot, guys can hit it as flat as the want. I don't think Osaka's swing takes too long or that she gets overpowered. They don't play further back. It is absolutely body type.
@@TomAllsopp Thats not true. A circular swing always produces a flatter shot. When I want to hit flat I hit across my body and in more of a plane. This is not even debatable. If you insist on this then you might want to check out other coaches on line that discuss this as well and every one of them say this. And they do play further back at least 3 feet back. Very few of them play the baseline while on the men's game, a lot of them are within 3 feet. Watch more tennis.
@@TomAllsopp ha ha …but seriously you are spot on with the WTA vs ATP forehand ..although didn’t go over very well when I told my GF that she should take the racket behind her because her ass is big lol
No offense, but this time it's not just a misconception, but utter nonsense. Sports practice is unfortunately full of myths and fairy tales that have persisted for years and are passed on, although there are enough examples to refute them. If a male adolescent at the age of 13 or 14 is able to hit an ATP forehand, so can any woman. Apart from that, the demands on strength in tennis are so minor that no woman or girl who plays higher-class competitive tennis would ever be limited to performing the necessary movement patterns for an ATP forehand due to a lack of strength or robustness of her physique. And if you look at the spindly and delicate figures of some of the top players in men's tennis, it becomes clear that a broad-shouldered physique is definitely not a prerequisite for an ATP forehand. But of course not a disadvantage either, as you can see very nicely with Raphael Nadal. ATP or WTA forehand is not a result of biomecanical needs but certainly the outcome of a consciously or unconsciously chosen direction in the development of movement patterns at the beginning of a training process and during the following several years. You just have to look at Leyhlah Fernandez's forehand, she really is a flea and anything but broad-shouldered or well-muscled: -Leylah Fernandez Forehand | straight-arm | Nadal style I recently had the pleasure of training with high-performance athletes, two 14-year-old girls who started tennis at the age of 4, currently train six times a week, are in the national team of their federal state and, in addition to their youth competitions, are already competing in high-class national Women's Tennis. There was no WTA forehand at all. Not a single one, the girls were fast and tough like boys, no broad shoulders but also no expansive pelvis and, above all, trained down to the last fiber. The little chicks hacked mercilessly on everything that was small and yellow and that flew through the air on their side of the court. So technically and physically not the slightest difference to boys their age who are still in the middle of puberty. It was a feast for the eyes and certainly no coincidence or bizarre exception, but the intended result of the professional tennis coaches employed by the state tennis association, who have been working with these girls for years and who know exactly what they are doing. Funnily enough, I always get an advertisement in front of the clips from TPA Tennis, which precisely indicates that women in particular can benefit from a change in their forehand technique in the sense of a reduced back swing and an inside-out movement pattern (ATP forehand) and hit with less effort significantly faster strokes with more topspinn. So I checked the hint and what I found is almost a little treasure and can be viewed under the following links: -How To Fix Your Forehand: Step 1 - Identify The Problem -How To Fix Your Forehand: Step 2 - Fix It With Progressions -How To Fix Your Forehand: Step 3 - Implement It Into Match Play -Tennis Tip: A Typical Forehand Problem -Topspin Groundstrokes: Swing Inside-Out For More Topspin
A lot of nothing said here. If you don’t think strength is a key factor, and you don’t understand that females hit forehands in a way that makes sense for their physique, I can’t help you.
@@TomAllsopp First look at the clip by Fernandez and then step 1-3 of "How to fix your forehand" and then think again very carefully whether what you have come up with can actually be correct. Very many women cannot throw properly either. But that's not because of their biomechanical conditions, but because they simply didn't learn it properly and don't practice. And in the past people were absolutely convinced that women could never play soccer properly because of their physical constitution. That, too, is of course complete nonsense. Strictly speaking, strength plays a role in every body motion, and even playing the piano you need some strength to move your fingers. What is decisive, however, is the question of whether the strength required to execute a movement in a properly coordinated manner exceeds the capabilities of the respective athlete. And especially when playing tennis you only have to move your arm and the comparatively light racket. It is even exactly the other way round, a large backswing is often the result of an attempt to accelerate the racket essentially with the help of the arm muscles and requires significantly more arm strength than the variant with a reduced backswing movement integrated into a neatly coordinated kinetic chain. Just the day before yesterday I had a female student who has been playing tennis for 30 years, currently in the upper league of her age group, a small person of about 160 cm (5,2 ft). We only tried the whole thing during one single lesson, which of course did not result in a perfect execution. But she has already managed it quite well and her impression was that she obviously can hit much more powerful balls with more spin and with clearly less effort.
@@TomAllsopp You can of course do whatever you want with your mind. But it becomes clear that at least Fernandez does not play a WTA forehand and that the professional tennis player Lena has also managed to change her technique and use it consistently in the match. Therefore, of course, you are far from being a bad person if you, regardless of whether you are a man or a woman, play a forehand that is more in line with the WTA technique. Furthermore, it is of course always questionable whether a change, which will probably initially lead to a deterioration in playing strength, is actually worthwhile in individual cases. But that (all) women get along better with a WTA forehand due to their biomechanical conditions, or that they basically lack the strength and robustness due to their physical requirements to implement a good ATP technique on their forehand, I think that is clearly refuted and maybe It will be a little difficult for your mind to cling to this fairy tale from the tennis world in the long run.
@@redsock4843 writing overly long comments doesn’t make you any more correct. Women hit the way they do for extremely good reasons. Fernandez looks like a female hitting a ball, and certainly doesn’t look ATP. This conversation has been going on at least since Henin imitated an ATP forehand. You bring nothing new to this old subject. Understand how to work with people, not on them, and you’ll understand why women gravitate to a certain technique.
No offense, but this time it's not just a misconception, but utter nonsense. Sports practice is unfortunately full of myths and fairy tales that have persisted for years and are passed on, although there are enough examples to refute them. If a male adolescent at the age of 13 or 14 is able to hit an ATP forehand, so can any woman. Apart from that, the demands on strength in tennis are so minor that no woman or girl who plays higher-class competitive tennis would ever be limited to performing the necessary movement patterns for an ATP forehand due to a lack of strength or robustness of her physique. And if you look at the spindly and delicate figures of some of the top players in men's tennis, it becomes clear that a broad-shouldered physique is definitely not a prerequisite for an ATP forehand. But of course not a disadvantage either, as you can see very nicely with Raphael Nadal. ATP or WTA forehand is not a result of biomecanical needs but certainly the outcome of a consciously or unconsciously chosen direction in the development of movement patterns at the beginning of a training process and during the following several years. You just have to look at Leyhlah Fernandez's forehand, she really is a flea and anything but broad-shouldered or well-muscled: -Leylah Fernandez Forehand | straight-arm | Nadal style I recently had the pleasure of training with high-performance athletes, two 14-year-old girls who started tennis at the age of 4, currently train six times a week, are in the national team of their federal state and, in addition to their youth competitions, are already competing in high-class national Women's Tennis. There was no WTA forehand at all. Not a single one, the girls were fast and tough like boys, no broad shoulders but also no expansive pelvis and, above all, trained down to the last fiber. The little chicks hacked mercilessly on everything that was small and yellow and that flew through the air on their side of the court. So technically and physically not the slightest difference to boys their age who are still in the middle of puberty. It was a feast for the eyes and certainly no coincidence or bizarre exception, but the intended result of the professional tennis coaches employed by the state tennis association, who have been working with these girls for years and who know exactly what they are doing. Funnily enough, I always get an advertisement in front of the clips from TPA Tennis, which precisely indicates that women in particular can benefit from a change in their forehand technique in the sense of a reduced back swing and an inside-out movement pattern (ATP forehand) and hit with less effort significantly faster strokes with more topspinn. So I checked the hint and what I found is almost a little treasure and can be viewed under the following links: -How To Fix Your Forehand: Step 1 - Identify The Problem -How To Fix Your Forehand: Step 2 - Fix It With Progressions -How To Fix Your Forehand: Step 3 - Implement It Into Match Play -Tennis Tip: A Typical Forehand Problem -Topspin Groundstrokes: Swing Inside-Out For More Topspin
A lot of nothing said here. If you don’t think strength is a key factor, and you don’t understand that females hit forehands in a way that makes sense for their physique, I can’t help you.
THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! You really did break this topic down and debunk false information spreaded by many other channels, promoting ATP forehands!! I am so tired of amateur males criticizing WTA forehands without understanding how a woman's body is built.
Great comment. Appreciate it!
@@TomAllsopp THANKS!!
@@Powercise1 This is such old news. Been hearing this stuff for 20 years and that nonsense is getting debunked. Thanks for the comment but there wasn't anything in there that people should listen to.
@@Powercise1 "A girl taught correctly how to throw a ball young can throw a ball just as well as a boy"
If you are referring to technical skills, there are many sports where you clearly can see that women athletes nowadays have throwing skills that previously used to be referred to as the "male" way of throwing. A typical example would be handball.
But you assumption falls flat as soon as you compare the top athletes in f.inst. handball. The difference is staggering, especially when comparing upper body strength. This gives the men the option of a very compact motion, with extreme acceleration. This is simply not possible for women, and that should go without saying. How common among women are: 190+ cm with broad shoulders and major upper torso muscles?
You mention Sabalenko. You could also have mentioned RG winner Swiantek. But as impressive as their FHs are, they're not anywhere near the men, and they're not technically as sound imo. Swiantek is perhaps the best example of a woman incorporating ATP-style elements, but compare her to f.inst. Jack Sock, Kyrgios or Sinner, and you'll notice the huge difference in acceleration.
Sorry but he is wrong, and can't just change the definition about breaking the plane. He is also wrong that this about a woman's body.... he confuses flexibility with strength. WTA does have some certain limitations that most people don't even know about.
Thanks a lot! Really helpful for developing my players! Love how you never force your technical vision on anyone but help them figure it out
Thanks. How many players you got these days?
VERY interesting. I never really thought about whether I had a WTA or ATP forehand - I was just glad to be crushing it after your awesome coaching.
Great video. I’ve studied ATP and WTA Forehands for years and I believe that, as with all shot, players get power from different sources. My doubles partner has relatively weak legs and strong shoulders and a really long upper and lower arm and crushes his serves with vastly different technique than what I use. The ATP Forehand is morphing into a throwing motion (Borg and Lendl started it and then Jimmy Arias and Agassi). If someone can’t throw well, use a WTA forehand with tons of hip rotation.
Great video and explanations.
Good stuff. Most of the coaches don't understand the difference! Thanks a ton!
That elbow thing at the end explains a lot. Good job.
This is so interesting. Thanks for breaking this down. I've been working on my forehand for the past year and had some private lessons where one coach was obsessed with keeping my elbow out while another coach didn't obsess about it but was more focused on my swing path from take back to full extension through the ball for depth/court penetration.
When you showed the Thiem video clip when he was young, I'm wondering if my elbow position is just a product of having weak shoulders. Is there an easy way to test if my shoulder stamina is "weak"?
On the flip side, if I built up my should strength the right way, do you think my takeback path would naturally change?
Wow that whole elbow thing! I do think the WTA forehand is more simple and therefore a good technique for a lot of Recreational players...less to go wrong.
Yes. It definitely gets far too little credit. It’s a great stroke for many people.
Interesting and useful video, MANY THANKS!! I noticed in the video that there is a tremendous difference in how far the instructor's elbows hang relative to his waistline (arms hanging relaxed, downward along the torso), when compared to the featured women. The instructor's elbows hang half-way to his waist, owing to a long torso and, perhaps, shorter upper arms. The featured women have elbows that come much further down toward their waists. This has to make a difference in how easy it is for the featured women to unite their elbows, with their arms straight out before them, as shown near the end of this video. I wonder, how does an individual's elbow position, relative to the height of their center of gravity (shoulder height for most males, hip height for most females) factor into their natural swing ?
Tom, would you mind post in some future vid a demonstration of yours hitting a spinned heavy high ball and also a low one under net level.
I'd be eager to watch how much of your kinetic chain motion varies from when you hit at waist level.
Thank you man.
Pd: I've seen your vid of the "how to" on high balls but not in motion.
I’ll see what I can do!
Very insightful!
Super interesting.... makes a lot of sense too by the way!
My daughter has been hitting ATP style from the get-go - probably since the age of 5. Definitely not the “usual” style if there’s such thing. The coaches in my area lack the experience understanding about the wide range of builds, different learning curves etc etc. so they categorize all the kids into a few categories like a cookie cutter solution. Most of the time this happens by age. (You 13? Here’s how you should look, hit and move - BY THIS AGE) And then there’s my daughter lol! She just turned 14 and by now has developed an absolute savage, Rafa / Alcatraz (esque) FH, hits huge balls BUT: it comes with a price (figuratively and literally speaking)
First of all, building an ATP FH is extremely complicated especially for kids. While the stroke mechanics look decent while shadow swinging, there’s not enough strength to support the wrist (a weak point imo)So this causes wrist instability throughout the swing and not much needed to get that racquet face open or close slightly and there goes the point. So she is “paying” for the learning curve in the form of UTR points. This clearly sucks! Also paying with the ongoing criticism of “lack of footwork”... or lack of everything (coaches here are driven by negativity instead of focusing on positivity) The ball goes long, it’s bc “no footwork”. Even though, she is at the point now where she clearly fires every shot from the group up but when she cranks up the power, the wrist just can’t yet handle it.
Quality video recording (slo-Mo) is my best friend. Record from all angles and analyze it to the T. This has helped us fine tune her issues (by Identifying the errors) that were related to the wrist, now she just needs to gain back the confidence when playing. Currently her biggest opponent on the court is herself lol. But I truly believe by the time she turns 15 everything will “catch up” and fall in place.
By the way: just asked daughter to do the forearm test: 100% ATP so we had a great laugh...!
Thank you for uploading and sharing your experience, this ensures me that I am onto something and that, we are on the right track.....! Thanks again!
great help for me to train my 11 year old boy.. I've been trying to have him copy ATP style and I guess it takes time for him to develop shoulder power to apply that Roger Federal technique..
Great observations
You have the best content, thank you.
Very cool elbows test at the end!
Yeah!!. Average men will never have their elbows touching because rib cage and shoulders are just way wider than that of women.
Thank you 🎉
actually, which muscle group is involved more for the wta forehand? is it the hips?
And shirtless Nitzan cleaning the lines on the other court :D Don't know why, but it made me laugh.
Your're a maestro truly.
You need to expound on your elbow theory.
I am a short man stature, thin, don't have a impressive shoulders. Every high ball with lot of spin it's so hard to hit. Should I try to copy a women's forehand for get more power and consistency?
The little elbow test was instructive. I’m a 61-year old female, but I cannot get my elbows to touch without bending my arms, which may explain why I gravitate to the ATP style forehand.
Interesting! Thanks!
@@TomAllsopp Also, I have strong shoulders. Hmmm, you’re onto something! Or on something. Either way, its interesting 😂
@@the1tfactor both haha
Imo there also might be a difference in how proficient men and women are at throwing, based on how much time they have devoted to learning the (most effective) throwing motion. Boys often devote more time than girls throwing balls aso in various sports and activities, and they take the skills related to this into tennis.
It's not that tennis is the same as throwing, but if you are proficient at throwing, you will have learned how to coordinate the various parts of the kinetic chain in the throwing motion, being able to throw long, short, high, fast, slow aso. This is a huge advantage going into tennis, and will result in a more shoulder oriented (rather than hips oriented) motion I would assume.
I played a lot of organized baseball and did some pitching. Although the actual throwing motion is not the same I learned to make the ball curve, drop, slide and moved it around the strike zone. You learned to pitch to the count of balls and strikes and when to throw a safe pitch or go for the corner of the strike zone. You had to remember what batters didn’t like and what the were comfortable with. This was a big cross over skill when I was developing my tennis game.
This is the first time that somebody has explained to me why women and men "tend" to hit with one style or another, and it's so simple.
More shoulder strength, you tend to lift your upper arm and elbow, and the racquet stays to the side.
Less shoulder strength, upper arm and elbow stays down, the arm takes the racquet behind your body.
Both work, and you use the one that feels more confortable and efficient.
Great video.
Good summary. And yes it kinda obvious. I still get a lot of push back for some reason
I'm a woman, tall but with slim stature and play the WTA forehand. The elbow test fails on me though I don't really have broad shoulders or anything ^^. I actually think it is more about the strength you have in your shoulders, isn't it?
Yes. And hips.
Guy in 4:36 clearly shows a pretty % of your kinetic chain ™️ signature.
1:19 3:10 - Love her forehand strokes....
What forehand should I hit if I have weak shoulders and can't touch my elbows together
Sounds like you need a two handed forehand mate
@@TomAllsopp My thoughts exactly! Will try it out and let you know how it goes
Hahahaha
Forget about it!. No way of having weak shoulders with no less than 3 times a week of pullup bars at home for 4 months minimun. Started out quite a few years ago and even though you could spare a few months here and there for laziness your body&mind will never be the same. Your mind will demand to return return over and over. One of the best and natural dopamine shots after just a 25 min serious session.
@@ruggierojerolli Interesting theory my friend, but you must not forget that excessive pull up training will result in overdeveloped biceps that will interfere in the process of hitting a sound kinetic forehand. I myself have 16 inch biceps that often collide with my chest on my follow through. Instead I have found that a better approach is to work the bench press movement 6 times a week for 7 months minimum. This was recommended to me by the great Svetoslav "Svety" Elenkov, and while he has a well renowned pedigree in laziness, my body and mind have never faltered and have become the epitome of strength. As they say, find a way!
I think WTA forehand better for recreational players because it's hard to generate lag from ATP forehand for amateur players. WTA forehand helps to lag easy. This is for recreational men and women
Wow I never realised that was the reason why men and women had different forehands. That test you did at the end can also come in handy if you ever find yourself in Bangkok.
World class advice
Mate you must have been disappointed when they could touch their elbows
My coach has been treated me as a guy as he taught me to lift up the elbow and engage with more shoulder !! lol
My shoulders aren't well built but I do have power. Just now, im playing like a man.
Does this mean a woman’s baseball or golf swing should be different a man’s swing. Doesn’t shoulder strength and flexibility contribute to the forearm touching thing? Sorry, your theory is fascinating but flawed.
How’s it flawed? Clearly it’s correct. What’s your reasoning as to why women hit forehands completely different to guys?
@@TomAllsopp What’s your reasoning for the similarities or differences between a Woman’s baseball or golf swing?
@24trevor24 because different mechanics are required. Not the same movement as tennis, and maybe no alternative solution that works as well for females. They’ve found a tennis style that works for them. That’s why the do it. It’s not complicated.
Tom, My reasoning for why women hit forehands different to guys is coaches like you, who create limits on players based on thinking too much of themselves and not of their students. The mechanics of throwing and swinging are similar regardless of gender. I applaud your desire to help your students, but, please come down off of your pedestal and stop supporting the phrase “You throw like a girl.”
@@24trevor24 Dumbest comment of the year so far. I don't tell anyone how they should hit a forehand. People do what is comfortable for them and I help them to improve. Boys and girls start with very similar mechanics. Women and men gravitate to a different way of hitting, unless a coach like you gets in the way because they think they know better.
I always assumed that women hit flatter to generate more pace. That big circular swing always creates a flatter shot. For men, they can generate more pace with a shorter loop and they don't need that big looping swing except for Medvedev. And they generally hit a heavier topspin ball. The big looping swing is not what you want for the men's game because, it takes too much time to load up and swing. And you can easily get overpowered. For females, this is not a problem because they typically play further back and ball is traveling slower. There are a lot of females with broad shoulders and small hips on the WTA but they still have that big loopy swing. I don't think it's body type at all, it's more upper body strength and core muscles. Men have more upper body and stronger cores.
It doesn't create a flatter shot, guys can hit it as flat as the want. I don't think Osaka's swing takes too long or that she gets overpowered. They don't play further back. It is absolutely body type.
@@TomAllsopp Thats not true. A circular swing always produces a flatter shot. When I want to hit flat I hit across my body and in more of a plane. This is not even debatable. If you insist on this then you might want to check out other coaches on line that discuss this as well and every one of them say this. And they do play further back at least 3 feet back. Very few of them play the baseline while on the men's game, a lot of them are within 3 feet. Watch more tennis.
@@twinwankel nonsense. Stop
@@TomAllsopp Sorry but you dont know what you are talking about.
@@twinwankel you seem like you’ve got it all figured out. Probably should start your own channel
Careful.. we are living in a bazzaro time when it comes to gender identity..lol
Seriously. I was about to flash “not all” and “in general” on the screen every two seconds.
@@TomAllsopp ha ha …but seriously you are spot on with the WTA vs ATP forehand ..although didn’t go over very well when I told my GF that she should take the racket behind her because her ass is big lol
@@edwardgrunder5628 lol haha
No offense, but this time it's not just a misconception, but utter nonsense. Sports practice is unfortunately full of myths and fairy tales that have persisted for years and are passed on, although there are enough examples to refute them.
If a male adolescent at the age of 13 or 14 is able to hit an ATP forehand, so can any woman. Apart from that, the demands on strength in tennis are so minor that no woman or girl who plays higher-class competitive tennis would ever be limited to performing the necessary movement patterns for an ATP forehand due to a lack of strength or robustness of her physique. And if you look at the spindly and delicate figures of some of the top players in men's tennis, it becomes clear that a broad-shouldered physique is definitely not a prerequisite for an ATP forehand. But of course not a disadvantage either, as you can see very nicely with Raphael Nadal. ATP or WTA forehand is not a result of biomecanical needs but certainly the outcome of a consciously or unconsciously chosen direction in the development of movement patterns at the beginning of a training process and during the following several years.
You just have to look at Leyhlah Fernandez's forehand, she really is a flea and anything but broad-shouldered or well-muscled:
-Leylah Fernandez Forehand | straight-arm | Nadal style
I recently had the pleasure of training with high-performance athletes, two 14-year-old girls who started tennis at the age of 4, currently train six times a week, are in the national team of their federal state and, in addition to their youth competitions, are already competing in high-class national Women's Tennis.
There was no WTA forehand at all. Not a single one, the girls were fast and tough like boys, no broad shoulders but also no expansive pelvis and, above all, trained down to the last fiber. The little chicks hacked mercilessly on everything that was small and yellow and that flew through the air on their side of the court. So technically and physically not the slightest difference to boys their age who are still in the middle of puberty.
It was a feast for the eyes and certainly no coincidence or bizarre exception, but the intended result of the professional tennis coaches employed by the state tennis association, who have been working with these girls for years and who know exactly what they are doing.
Funnily enough, I always get an advertisement in front of the clips from TPA Tennis, which precisely indicates that women in particular can benefit from a change in their forehand technique in the sense of a reduced back swing and an inside-out movement pattern (ATP forehand) and hit with less effort significantly faster strokes with more topspinn.
So I checked the hint and what I found is almost a little treasure and can be viewed under the following links:
-How To Fix Your Forehand: Step 1 - Identify The Problem
-How To Fix Your Forehand: Step 2 - Fix It With Progressions
-How To Fix Your Forehand: Step 3 - Implement It Into Match Play
-Tennis Tip: A Typical Forehand Problem
-Topspin Groundstrokes: Swing Inside-Out For More Topspin
A lot of nothing said here. If you don’t think strength is a key factor, and you don’t understand that females hit forehands in a way that makes sense for their physique, I can’t help you.
@@TomAllsopp First look at the clip by Fernandez and then step 1-3 of "How to fix your forehand" and then think again very carefully whether what you have come up with can actually be correct.
Very many women cannot throw properly either. But that's not because of their biomechanical conditions, but because they simply didn't learn it properly and don't practice. And in the past people were absolutely convinced that women could never play soccer properly because of their physical constitution. That, too, is of course complete nonsense.
Strictly speaking, strength plays a role in every body motion, and even playing the piano you need some strength to move your fingers. What is decisive, however, is the question of whether the strength required to execute a movement in a properly coordinated manner exceeds the capabilities of the respective athlete. And especially when playing tennis you only have to move your arm and the comparatively light racket.
It is even exactly the other way round, a large backswing is often the result of an attempt to accelerate the racket essentially with the help of the arm muscles and requires significantly more arm strength than the variant with a reduced backswing movement integrated into a neatly coordinated kinetic chain.
Just the day before yesterday I had a female student who has been playing tennis for 30 years, currently in the upper league of her age group, a small person of about 160 cm (5,2 ft). We only tried the whole thing during one single lesson, which of course did not result in a perfect execution. But she has already managed it quite well and her impression was that she obviously can hit much more powerful balls with more spin and with clearly less effort.
@@redsock4843 nothing you’re saying or that Fernandez does changes my mind. Opposite actually.
@@TomAllsopp You can of course do whatever you want with your mind. But it becomes clear that at least Fernandez does not play a WTA forehand and that the professional tennis player Lena has also managed to change her technique and use it consistently in the match.
Therefore, of course, you are far from being a bad person if you, regardless of whether you are a man or a woman, play a forehand that is more in line with the WTA technique. Furthermore, it is of course always questionable whether a change, which will probably initially lead to a deterioration in playing strength, is actually worthwhile in individual cases.
But that (all) women get along better with a WTA forehand due to their biomechanical conditions, or that they basically lack the strength and robustness due to their physical requirements to implement a good ATP technique on their forehand, I think that is clearly refuted and maybe It will be a little difficult for your mind to cling to this fairy tale from the tennis world in the long run.
@@redsock4843 writing overly long comments doesn’t make you any more correct. Women hit the way they do for extremely good reasons. Fernandez looks like a female hitting a ball, and certainly doesn’t look ATP. This conversation has been going on at least since Henin imitated an ATP forehand. You bring nothing new to this old subject. Understand how to work with people, not on them, and you’ll understand why women gravitate to a certain technique.
You are fishing for students. Everyone knows that ATP forehand is better than WTA forehand.
Yes it is, for men
No offense, but this time it's not just a misconception, but utter nonsense. Sports practice is unfortunately full of myths and fairy tales that have persisted for years and are passed on, although there are enough examples to refute them.
If a male adolescent at the age of 13 or 14 is able to hit an ATP forehand, so can any woman. Apart from that, the demands on strength in tennis are so minor that no woman or girl who plays higher-class competitive tennis would ever be limited to performing the necessary movement patterns for an ATP forehand due to a lack of strength or robustness of her physique. And if you look at the spindly and delicate figures of some of the top players in men's tennis, it becomes clear that a broad-shouldered physique is definitely not a prerequisite for an ATP forehand. But of course not a disadvantage either, as you can see very nicely with Raphael Nadal. ATP or WTA forehand is not a result of biomecanical needs but certainly the outcome of a consciously or unconsciously chosen direction in the development of movement patterns at the beginning of a training process and during the following several years.
You just have to look at Leyhlah Fernandez's forehand, she really is a flea and anything but broad-shouldered or well-muscled:
-Leylah Fernandez Forehand | straight-arm | Nadal style
I recently had the pleasure of training with high-performance athletes, two 14-year-old girls who started tennis at the age of 4, currently train six times a week, are in the national team of their federal state and, in addition to their youth competitions, are already competing in high-class national Women's Tennis.
There was no WTA forehand at all. Not a single one, the girls were fast and tough like boys, no broad shoulders but also no expansive pelvis and, above all, trained down to the last fiber. The little chicks hacked mercilessly on everything that was small and yellow and that flew through the air on their side of the court. So technically and physically not the slightest difference to boys their age who are still in the middle of puberty.
It was a feast for the eyes and certainly no coincidence or bizarre exception, but the intended result of the professional tennis coaches employed by the state tennis association, who have been working with these girls for years and who know exactly what they are doing.
Funnily enough, I always get an advertisement in front of the clips from TPA Tennis, which precisely indicates that women in particular can benefit from a change in their forehand technique in the sense of a reduced back swing and an inside-out movement pattern (ATP forehand) and hit with less effort significantly faster strokes with more topspinn.
So I checked the hint and what I found is almost a little treasure and can be viewed under the following links:
-How To Fix Your Forehand: Step 1 - Identify The Problem
-How To Fix Your Forehand: Step 2 - Fix It With Progressions
-How To Fix Your Forehand: Step 3 - Implement It Into Match Play
-Tennis Tip: A Typical Forehand Problem
-Topspin Groundstrokes: Swing Inside-Out For More Topspin
A lot of nothing said here. If you don’t think strength is a key factor, and you don’t understand that females hit forehands in a way that makes sense for their physique, I can’t help you.