When the first four classes got a gold star, I thought to myself "oh, that's a cute message, every single class will get a gold star in their own niche, like a really nice kindergarten teacher rewarding their students". But oh booooy I was wrong, things immediately got serious when cleric out of all classes didn't get one 😂 great video, loved the "intervals of confidence" for each class.
Your version of a tier list with their variable placement range is ingenious and a fantastic way to show a classes variance from player to player. Your explanations also made a lot of sense and even if people disagree with you, they can't say your thoughts aren't well thought out. Fantastic video
40:28, Oh my gosh, finally someone giving the Investigator the praise it deserves in the place it is actually strongest. Incredible analysis all around and nuance-pilled, subscribed.
Even though I disagree with quite a few of these placements, I can't help but applaud the amount of effort that went into making this tier list and the unique way in which you rate the classes with the lower and upper range. Very nice video!
Yes -- in the end these tier ranking videos are just opinions (some a little more educated and less biased than others) -- but yes -- this one was done better than most.
22:23 Fun fact, if we go by RAW, if you picked up Champion dedication and you received its reaction through the dedication, you can't actually use the reaction, since the reaction now works off of the Champion's aura, which the Champion dedication doesn't specify you have. So, by RAW the feat that grants you the reaction literally does nothing. But of course, this isn't obviously the intention, and it will be most likely erratad in the future, but it is funny.
Dope video! Most of these class rankings feel like they're based on purely skim-reading the class or white-room maths without talking about practical session-to-session gameplay but you've got this really obvious understanding and experience that comes through in the review.
I think you had some interesting takes. I liked the Summoner stuff you pointed out. I'd recommend trying to trim down the start a bit. Your system is fairly intuitive so it felt a tad overexplained
This is an amazing video, super appreciate the amount of effort you put into this (and it's clear you've had a lot of fun juggling all this data as well, which is awesome). I'm glad to see a number of my own personal preconceptions confirmed while also getting a better idea of the breadth of some of these classes. Happy that your thoughts about my favorite class (Thaumaturge) line up with mine as well! I'd say the only thing I would've liked to see pointed out some more is the potential variance in these scores depending on the type of campaign and the style of GMing in different groups. I've found that aspects like skill feats, Recall Knowledge and even things like language proficiencies can vary wildly in priority depending on context. Obviously that would muddle a lot of the data points in your list, so I definitely understand sticking to essentially the "archetypical" PF2e play context to evaluate these classes. Just thought that pointing out this context-dependency in some places might've been helpful for newer players as well. Anyways, amazing work and I'm looking forward to seeing your future videos in my inbox! :)
You killed it with this video. Subscribed. Looking forward to seeing what you do in the future. I really enjoyed listening to this while painting tonight.
this is a great video, love the format. It does a good job of showing what is (in my opinion) the key distinction between something that's mid-tier and something that's high-tier. Almost anything can excel with enough effort, but certain classes take a lot of knowledge, skill, or specific builds to end up at the level some other classes are starting out at.
Amazing content and quite in-depth too! I think you struck a really good balance between keeping it digestible for each class while still highlighting key factors in your assessment, awesome video!
I don't know if I agree with your analysis of the Cursebound options. Almost all of them are ways of breaking the action economy, so they are a tradeoff you pay for essentially squeezing more out of your turns. I will admit, some are better than others, but I think that free metamagic, are all good. They also get some very strong cursebound feats at later levels too.
Amazing analysis of all classes! What I loved is that you provided very well constructed tips on how each class can rise to a higher tier. Already shared this video with all the groups I'm playing! Subscribed!
Really great tier list. I kind of wish the class images were also placed in kind of on the expected tier line to make it a bit easier to read at a glance.
Amazing list, I totally agree with Cleric, I been playing one since beginning of the year and thanks to our dm and the theme of the table being very flexible I was allow to change many feats and setups around until I found a really good niche I could do for the group where as a Medic I just have absurd amounts of mundane healing+heal slots for whenever things get dicey in combat, and outside of combat I can get everyone to full in like 30 minutes and it all just makes such a difference.
This is an amazing way to present information. I really love the intervals of performance, since in reality player ability will make a big difference how the classes perform. This provides a clearer idea on how wide the range of competence can be for a single class.
Well reasoned and instructive. Even if one were to disagree with some of the conclusions, this is a great exercise in considering the range of effectiveness different builds can offer for every class.
This was great. It was refreshing that you didn't, as they say in sports betting, "go chalk." This might be the first list I've seen that didn't have Fighter as best in its archetype, and everyone else I've seen gushes over the new Oracle. You weren't as excited, which is cool. I'm deliberately trying to find more content from smaller channels, and it paid off with yours.
I've been out of the Pathfinder loop for several years, just reading up again in preparation for a campaign I'm preparing to run. This was a really helpful and insightful way to look at the classes, and it's earned my subscription.
Finally wrapped up the video. Thank you for the great layout, highlighting how the class can improve its value, and the succinct information provided. I hope as we go forward and you further digest PC2 we can get individual class videos going forward.
Really well considered video, im not usually into the letter grade style of tier list but the bar you did for each class actually allowed for the sort of nuance that is usually lost by doing this and I think thats really impressive. Also very cool to see someone with it/its pronouns doing pathfinder videos, excited to see your starfinder coverage if its even a 10th as in depth ^w^
I think the main issue with Alchemist is it's still mostly a mobile dispensary for the rest of the party. They just don't have the same wild concepts as the PF1e version of the class. Also it is just so... baffling that barbarian got buffed, while Inventor which is basically an INT barbarian with gadgets just doesn't get to function if they keep rolling badly.
I disagree on the first point. I mean there is that aspect, which I think is part of the class fantasy anyway, but it isn't all they do anymore. I think the research fields do a good job of making each role better at using their chosen items than anyone else. Mutagenist's features may be a bit hit or miss, and toxicologist suffers from poisons just being kind of bad, but they do make effective use of their own stuff.
I don't even play pathfinder but this was a phenomenal presentation and I feel like I know a lot more about the baseline gameplay of the remastered classes after watching this compared to reading what's in the books with my level of understanding. Great job, 10/10
Very interesting how you lantern in the S rank. Im curious of how you paired the implements to come up with the result (i.e. weapon/tome or weapon/regalia etc). This is a very unique breakdown. I do like it, Thank you.
This is honestly the best was to show how classes break down thanks to choice and how beginner friendly some classes are. Keep up the good work! Also can't wait when is Free archetype with each class is added to the equation /jk
You’ve made a subscriber out of me. I would love to hear more thoughts on Investigator, as that’s what I’m playing as my first pf2e class and I’ve been struggling. Pretty happy with the remaster, think it’ll make life easier, but you can’t ever have too much info. Edit: Just found the Investigator overview video. Know what I’m watching next!
First of all, I am absolutely in love with the way you've done this tier list! It's so unique and allows for a style of analysis that's easy to comprehend, concise yet still in-depth! Second, poor Oracle... My fav class in PF1E has been struggling so much in PF2E... I have to wonder if, given how PF2E is designed such that any disadvantage you get in 2e is so much more punishing than it is in 1e (after-all, every single +1 and -1 matters) means that the class is kinda just... Doomed to fail thanks to the curse mechanic? Pre-remaster the fact that the class had to jump through hoops to be on the same power level as others (a problem they shared with Alchemists, specifically mutagenist) was one of the biggest complaints they had and they haven't really solved that, they've just extracted the power (and as a consequence, the class flavor), put it into feats and called it a day. This change in design philosophy does mean that the archetype is an extremely strong pick-up at least thanks to the general power of Oracle feats being 'higher' than other classes due to giving you cursebound (tho whether taking the curse penalties is ever worth it is another question), imo it's just as good a pick-up as the psychic archetype as a "generically good for pretty much everyone" archetype. The fact that they also massively gutted certain mysteries, Battle and Life most notably, is so strange to me... Oracle was already considered one of the weakest classes in the game in general, and their response was to nerf the most beloved mysteries? Why? What sense does that even make? Smh Paizo... Smh...
Damn what a journey for Alchemists. From a barely functional class with downright innefective options to a pretty solid option. Oh also, the new Renewed Vigor for Barbarian is amazing.
Quite an interesting way of showing tier placement. I quite like it. Your reasoning seems sound, and I'm not just saying that because you placed kineticist in A+. I very much enjoyed the video. 👌 What are your 3 favourite classes?
Thank you for your kind words! My favourite 3 would have to be (in no particular order) Alchemist for the depth of the alchemical consumable list, Cleric for being just such an amazing chassis for support, and Thaumaturge for the nigh-unbeatable build flexibility and capability to gain information on the fly.
@@lexchxn Thaumaturge was one of the first classes that got my attention when I got into PF2e. I like the idea and feel of the alchemist but for me it's more of a "I would love to play _with_ one instead of _playing_ one. My top 3 would be kineticist (it's the embodiment of my fantasy), druid (specifically the untamed/wildshape version) and, when it comes out, the exemplar.
HEY WAIT THIS CHANNEL IS HEAT. Loving this kind of content and would love to see more, I adore super in depth content like this and would love to see more. Any thoughts on making a video on DMing Pf2E? I'm starting my first time DMing it in a few weeks. Regardless subbed and belled, can't wait to see what you make next.
Just a note, reactive strike on a target that is prone standing up can not make them prone again since the target is prone when reactive strike is triggered. Which is why they are off guard. Reactive strike happens before the action that triggers it. Now disrupt prey on the other hand, can interrupt movement actions and not just manipulate so critting with that can stop them from standing up. Also EVERY class can be played as F tier. Even a fighter. I have seen it. Harm font + channel smite + organsight is awesome. And use spell slots for heals. You don't need to heal the party if whatever you are fighting is dead. For magus...yes scrolls...and wands. But also Wizard and or psychic archetypes. And while a magus alone isn't that powerful, they become lynchpins for teams that are gonna be S tier. When they crit something +4 levels above them on a 8 and doing 700 damage and just removing it from existence. Consolidating damage into a single attack is very potent because of aid. And nobody can do that as good as a magus. Nice way to do a tier list. I really like it.
Incorrect. That's how it worked in PF1, but in PF2 it was changed so the trigger happens after the action: "If you use a move action but don't move out of a square, the trigger instead happens at the end of that action or ability." So when you reactive strike someone standing up, they're not off-guard and you can potentially knock them prone again.
@elifia umm...okay, but if you are ruling that reaction happen AFTER the triggering action, gnome flickmace and whips are a LOT weaker now on fighter's and anyone with reactive strike and the crit specialization. Because if you crit and trip them, they fall prone after they are done moving out of the threatened square...which will generally be right next to you. So they can just attack at -2. Even with 2 action big attacks. It actually isn't stated explicitly...but the fact that reactions can disrupt actions implies it happens before.
@@ColdNapalm42 No, read the quote again. It says "If you use a move action but don't move out of a square", so it doesn't apply to the situation you just described. Only to move actions that don't actually move you, such as standing up.
@elifia move out of a threatened square also is a trigger. So you ruling that it triggers AFTER the action means they finish moving out of the square, then reactive strike happens. So if a flail with reach crits and they fall prone, it is the the square next to you...not 10 feet away. And like I said, the fact that reaction as a general rule can disrupt or modify effect does imply before anyways. As a side note PFS ruling is before. You can do what you like in your home game...as long as it is consistent.
@@ColdNapalm42 You misunderstand. I'm quoting the actual rules. I'm not ruling anything myself. It says that *if it's a move action* but *you don't leave the square* , THEN it provokes at the end of the action. So if it's a move action but you *do* leave the square, then it *is* before the action.
Good list. I learned a few things about other classes. However, I disagree with your take on Oracle, and how it has nothing really stand out about it. One, you stated it was confined to the divine list without a way out of it, but Divine Access does do that job rather well for them to get out of that constraint. Two, I would like to sell you on the advantages of Oracle healing, and that is primarily through its resource and action efficiency. Oracle Curse Healing is both resource and action efficient. And if you feel Life Oracle is too costly to consider, then pretend this is tempest Oracle who took the Scales feat at level 2. Cursebound healing is an additional renewable resource in and out of combat. The initial heal is a 1 action ranged heal that heals a flat amount a little weaker than 1-action heal’s average without the gamble of low healing 1-2 HP, that also works at range. Unless a cleric is adjacent to a target, they have no 1-action heal options and in that position a cleric is more vulnerable to the enemy. At level 10, they get access to an additional amount of cursebound AoE heals that are comparable to actual Heal but only cost 2 actions to cast. Cleric can pick up fast channel at a later level, but at that point, they don’t have the extra 1 action and 3 action healing pool, that Oracles have per encounter. If we look at offensive blasting, then fortell harm will out-damage dangerous sorcery in single target and two target fights consistently due to how it ignores saving throws.
Thank you! I'd definitely have to wait until we get more clarity on what the parity expectations are between the two games- If they're expected to play balanced side by side in the final release, I could see myself adding them. As is, however, I'm getting initial impressions that they're meant to be mechanically compatible, but based around different balance points- so I'm not sure tossing them onto the same comparison chart would do either game justice. More than anything, I'd need a lot of time with finished versions of the classes and their respective games.
I don’t even play pathfinder and this video was thoroughly entertaining and really makes me want to try it. Unfortunately “Oracle” is definitely the coolest sounding class, but based on the tier list is also looks like the least consistent/least powerful ;-;
Don't worry, after the remaster especially the classes are all very playable. Spellcasters can feel bad to play though depending on how you determine your value/enjoyment, but they are objectively very helpful and borderline necessary for a party to function, so its definitely fine to play, just a bit harder to be effective, but when you manage to be effective you can perform more than good enough to justify playing it. It's not like dnd where the worst classes are garbage and the strongest is overpowered
Life oracle was crushed with the rework. It's basically just a cleric, but can't make use of anything that makes you unique without drastically putting you at risk. Cleric is just a safer, more flexible, and more reliable life oracle.
I wouldn't say Oracle is left without its niches still- the new (and old!) Life Oracles were very capable of outputting situationally stronger support than a Cleric. It's all about strengths and weaknesses, and I think that applies (generally) to all of Oracle. But in the same vein, I find that what Oracle excels at now is either something not particularly needed (conduit of void and vitality allowing you to cast a 3-action **heal** or **harm** for 2 actions with a small bonus effect to a single creature) or otherwise outshone (nudge the scales being repeatable 1 action decent healing). Both of these are very solid options, and can absolutely be better than a 2-action heal in some situations, but the sheer potency of what you have to compare them to (whether it be Divine Sorcerer or a Clerical Font, focusing on a single frontliner who soaks up most of the hits) I think brings not only a Life Oracle's general performance, but their top performance into question. What fully sealed placement for Oracle though was just how little their granted features contribute to their uniqueness now- it's not a dismissible cost to be sure, but with two feat slots (or one, if they're an ancient elf) a Divine Sorcerer can also gain access to the nudge the scales cursebound action. Much of this applies to the other mysteries as well, and these small changes add up to an Oracle that, while certainly not a poor choice, no class is, I don't think can compete at the highest level anymore. It's a shame too, because I love the class.
Repeat practice and trial and error. PF2E has great retraining built into the system and as long as the GM isn’t a jerk, you can really rework a character to test a couple of builds across a campaign.
![[Pathfinder 2e] How to pick a class - A Quick Look at All Classes in PF2](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/mMRxkf14cBw/mqdefault.jpg)
Fantastic breakdown. I really love the nuance given to each class, everyone can succeed if you know what you are doing.
This is a very interesting way to show placement in the tier-list.
I like it! much more informative.
The statistician in me appreciates the bars
It's brilliant!
Absolutely agree.
If I were to ever create one of my own, I would certainly use this method.
This is the best way to organize a class tier list I've ever seen!
I was just thinking this. I've never seen this before, and it is a fantastic idea!
When the first four classes got a gold star, I thought to myself "oh, that's a cute message, every single class will get a gold star in their own niche, like a really nice kindergarten teacher rewarding their students". But oh booooy I was wrong, things immediately got serious when cleric out of all classes didn't get one 😂 great video, loved the "intervals of confidence" for each class.
The new cleric is so damn silly tbh. All He can is BE a heal bot
Kudos on the uncommon/unique approach. I'm amazed at the amount of thought and hard work that had to have gone into this presentation. Thanks!
Your version of a tier list with their variable placement range is ingenious and a fantastic way to show a classes variance from player to player.
Your explanations also made a lot of sense and even if people disagree with you, they can't say your thoughts aren't well thought out. Fantastic video
This is some great presentation! It always bothered me how classes got generalized despite really spreading the gambit of what is possible
40:28, Oh my gosh, finally someone giving the Investigator the praise it deserves in the place it is actually strongest. Incredible analysis all around and nuance-pilled, subscribed.
Best way of showing a tierlist- Top tier stuff
Even though I disagree with quite a few of these placements, I can't help but applaud the amount of effort that went into making this tier list and the unique way in which you rate the classes with the lower and upper range. Very nice video!
Yes -- in the end these tier ranking videos are just opinions (some a little more educated and less biased than others) -- but yes -- this one was done better than most.
22:23 Fun fact, if we go by RAW, if you picked up Champion dedication and you received its reaction through the dedication, you can't actually use the reaction, since the reaction now works off of the Champion's aura, which the Champion dedication doesn't specify you have. So, by RAW the feat that grants you the reaction literally does nothing. But of course, this isn't obviously the intention, and it will be most likely erratad in the future, but it is funny.
Fully expected a "everything is good actually" cop out, left pleasently surprised.
Excellent analysis, subscribed!
Would be keen for a guide to standout consumables at different levels. There's way too many to keep in mind
Seconded
This is great. However I do believe new oracle can expand their spell list past divine with special spells from their mystery.
Found you from Reddit. 20 minutes in and holy cow. New follower earned. This slaps
Dope video! Most of these class rankings feel like they're based on purely skim-reading the class or white-room maths without talking about practical session-to-session gameplay but you've got this really obvious understanding and experience that comes through in the review.
Yesss more long form pathfinder content. Love the way you broke down the tierlist and presented everything. Great video
Fucken box plot tier list.
10/10
I think you had some interesting takes. I liked the Summoner stuff you pointed out. I'd recommend trying to trim down the start a bit. Your system is fairly intuitive so it felt a tad overexplained
Single best tier analysis I have ever watched. Your love for pathfinder shines through. I’m subscribing.
This is such a good and detailed way to rank classes. Great job.
This is an amazing video, super appreciate the amount of effort you put into this (and it's clear you've had a lot of fun juggling all this data as well, which is awesome). I'm glad to see a number of my own personal preconceptions confirmed while also getting a better idea of the breadth of some of these classes. Happy that your thoughts about my favorite class (Thaumaturge) line up with mine as well!
I'd say the only thing I would've liked to see pointed out some more is the potential variance in these scores depending on the type of campaign and the style of GMing in different groups. I've found that aspects like skill feats, Recall Knowledge and even things like language proficiencies can vary wildly in priority depending on context. Obviously that would muddle a lot of the data points in your list, so I definitely understand sticking to essentially the "archetypical" PF2e play context to evaluate these classes. Just thought that pointing out this context-dependency in some places might've been helpful for newer players as well.
Anyways, amazing work and I'm looking forward to seeing your future videos in my inbox! :)
You killed it with this video. Subscribed. Looking forward to seeing what you do in the future. I really enjoyed listening to this while painting tonight.
This was so cool! I love this way of doing a tier list; it's both more informative and more entertaining
Holy sh*t now this is an actual, thought out, understandable tier list. How did I JUST find this channel!?
A brilliant video, thank you for putting so much work into it.
It almost didn't hurt my Oracle loving soul xD
the most insightful and best breakdown I've ever been of a tierlist ever, this is a gem, amazing, thank you so much!
this is a great video, love the format. It does a good job of showing what is (in my opinion) the key distinction between something that's mid-tier and something that's high-tier. Almost anything can excel with enough effort, but certain classes take a lot of knowledge, skill, or specific builds to end up at the level some other classes are starting out at.
I really enjoyed the way you did that. It provides so much detail for each of the classes.
Best tier list I have ever seen for ANY system, let alone PF2e. Love this, subbed, I look forward to more. Thank you for the hard work.
Amazing content and quite in-depth too! I think you struck a really good balance between keeping it digestible for each class while still highlighting key factors in your assessment, awesome video!
Thanks for the video, it's clear you spent a lot of prep for this, and this format for a tierlist is excellent! Subbed.
Really love this new tier list and style. Can't wait for more tier lists like this.
I really like the idea of rating classes based on "contribution" rather than only looking at damage output like a lot of other lists end up being
I don't know if I agree with your analysis of the Cursebound options. Almost all of them are ways of breaking the action economy, so they are a tradeoff you pay for essentially squeezing more out of your turns. I will admit, some are better than others, but I think that free metamagic, are all good. They also get some very strong cursebound feats at later levels too.
What an incredibly well-thought out video. I really appreciate the box-plot.
I love the standard deviation bars, great way to illustrate the nuance of build variation
Amazing analysis of all classes! What I loved is that you provided very well constructed tips on how each class can rise to a higher tier. Already shared this video with all the groups I'm playing! Subscribed!
Really great tier list. I kind of wish the class images were also placed in kind of on the expected tier line to make it a bit easier to read at a glance.
great tier list and a very unique take with the candle "chart" look. I learned a lot. thank you
Wow, that was an excellent approach to making a tier list with great explanation!
Amazing list, I totally agree with Cleric, I been playing one since beginning of the year and thanks to our dm and the theme of the table being very flexible I was allow to change many feats and setups around until I found a really good niche I could do for the group where as a Medic I just have absurd amounts of mundane healing+heal slots for whenever things get dicey in combat, and outside of combat I can get everyone to full in like 30 minutes and it all just makes such a difference.
This is an amazing way to present information. I really love the intervals of performance, since in reality player ability will make a big difference how the classes perform. This provides a clearer idea on how wide the range of competence can be for a single class.
Deep analysis, very impressive, strong verbal skills, academic style.
Love how you give a wide range for the tiers and reasoning for what specific elements can drag down or raise up the classes.
Well reasoned and instructive. Even if one were to disagree with some of the conclusions, this is a great exercise in considering the range of effectiveness different builds can offer for every class.
This was great. It was refreshing that you didn't, as they say in sports betting, "go chalk." This might be the first list I've seen that didn't have Fighter as best in its archetype, and everyone else I've seen gushes over the new Oracle. You weren't as excited, which is cool. I'm deliberately trying to find more content from smaller channels, and it paid off with yours.
I've been out of the Pathfinder loop for several years, just reading up again in preparation for a campaign I'm preparing to run. This was a really helpful and insightful way to look at the classes, and it's earned my subscription.
Finally wrapped up the video. Thank you for the great layout, highlighting how the class can improve its value, and the succinct information provided. I hope as we go forward and you further digest PC2 we can get individual class videos going forward.
Really well considered video, im not usually into the letter grade style of tier list but the bar you did for each class actually allowed for the sort of nuance that is usually lost by doing this and I think thats really impressive. Also very cool to see someone with it/its pronouns doing pathfinder videos, excited to see your starfinder coverage if its even a 10th as in depth ^w^
This looks like a world of logs tier list. I love it!
Best tier system I have seen.
Clear rational and well put together. Insightful and helpful thank you.
1:10 - Paizo declares no intention to remaster more. Then this week: We're gonna remaster Guns and Gears...
Such an amazing video and such detailed explanations! Thank your hard work!
Best tier list ive ever seen.
Pretty good arguments.
You now have a new subscriber!
Love the ranking system. Looks way better imo. Love it!
New tier list meta right here. Blown away by your ingenuity!
This is easily the best tier list I've seen. Well done. I hope you start getting a lot more traction, you deserve it.
There's so many fun classes in PF2e it's hard to choose which one to play! I'm excited for the exemplar and all the SF2e classes that will be coming.
what a nice way to show a tier list, this is so insightfull and also clean and very simple to understand. Great video overall
I think the main issue with Alchemist is it's still mostly a mobile dispensary for the rest of the party. They just don't have the same wild concepts as the PF1e version of the class. Also it is just so... baffling that barbarian got buffed, while Inventor which is basically an INT barbarian with gadgets just doesn't get to function if they keep rolling badly.
I disagree on the first point. I mean there is that aspect, which I think is part of the class fantasy anyway, but it isn't all they do anymore. I think the research fields do a good job of making each role better at using their chosen items than anyone else. Mutagenist's features may be a bit hit or miss, and toxicologist suffers from poisons just being kind of bad, but they do make effective use of their own stuff.
Love your voice, and the diagram is brilliant. Thank you for this~
I don't even play pathfinder but this was a phenomenal presentation and I feel like I know a lot more about the baseline gameplay of the remastered classes after watching this compared to reading what's in the books with my level of understanding. Great job, 10/10
I love this way of breaking things down, your style is interesting, unique, and thorough! Greatly enjoyed listening to your analysis. Subscribed.
Very interesting how you lantern in the S rank. Im curious of how you paired the implements to come up with the result (i.e. weapon/tome or weapon/regalia etc). This is a very unique breakdown. I do like it, Thank you.
This is honestly the best was to show how classes break down thanks to choice and how beginner friendly some classes are. Keep up the good work!
Also can't wait when is Free archetype with each class is added to the equation /jk
You’ve made a subscriber out of me. I would love to hear more thoughts on Investigator, as that’s what I’m playing as my first pf2e class and I’ve been struggling. Pretty happy with the remaster, think it’ll make life easier, but you can’t ever have too much info.
Edit: Just found the Investigator overview video. Know what I’m watching next!
Probably the best tier list I've seen from the pathfinder community. Subscribed!
Appreciate the nuance. I hope you'll grow to be one of the biggest PF2 youtubers one day
this is awesome! i gave my real personal information to that artist in your about page!
I sure hope not! I'm glad you enjoyed the video :)
First of all, I am absolutely in love with the way you've done this tier list! It's so unique and allows for a style of analysis that's easy to comprehend, concise yet still in-depth!
Second, poor Oracle... My fav class in PF1E has been struggling so much in PF2E... I have to wonder if, given how PF2E is designed such that any disadvantage you get in 2e is so much more punishing than it is in 1e (after-all, every single +1 and -1 matters) means that the class is kinda just... Doomed to fail thanks to the curse mechanic? Pre-remaster the fact that the class had to jump through hoops to be on the same power level as others (a problem they shared with Alchemists, specifically mutagenist) was one of the biggest complaints they had and they haven't really solved that, they've just extracted the power (and as a consequence, the class flavor), put it into feats and called it a day.
This change in design philosophy does mean that the archetype is an extremely strong pick-up at least thanks to the general power of Oracle feats being 'higher' than other classes due to giving you cursebound (tho whether taking the curse penalties is ever worth it is another question), imo it's just as good a pick-up as the psychic archetype as a "generically good for pretty much everyone" archetype.
The fact that they also massively gutted certain mysteries, Battle and Life most notably, is so strange to me... Oracle was already considered one of the weakest classes in the game in general, and their response was to nerf the most beloved mysteries? Why? What sense does that even make? Smh Paizo... Smh...
GREAT video and breakdown of classes. The detail was perfect for explaining
Loved the use of a whisker plot! I’ve never seen that before
Damn what a journey for Alchemists. From a barely functional class with downright innefective options to a pretty solid option.
Oh also, the new Renewed Vigor for Barbarian is amazing.
Quite an interesting way of showing tier placement. I quite like it. Your reasoning seems sound, and I'm not just saying that because you placed kineticist in A+.
I very much enjoyed the video. 👌
What are your 3 favourite classes?
Thank you for your kind words! My favourite 3 would have to be (in no particular order) Alchemist for the depth of the alchemical consumable list, Cleric for being just such an amazing chassis for support, and Thaumaturge for the nigh-unbeatable build flexibility and capability to gain information on the fly.
@@lexchxn Thaumaturge was one of the first classes that got my attention when I got into PF2e. I like the idea and feel of the alchemist but for me it's more of a "I would love to play _with_ one instead of _playing_ one.
My top 3 would be kineticist (it's the embodiment of my fantasy), druid (specifically the untamed/wildshape version) and, when it comes out, the exemplar.
I loved this video! What a great analysis that's helped me--a P2e newcomer--understand the game better. Subscribed!
This is a really incredible video, sending this to my group to spawn arguments among all my players :3
This is a lovely way to do a tier list, really great!
HEY WAIT THIS CHANNEL IS HEAT. Loving this kind of content and would love to see more, I adore super in depth content like this and would love to see more. Any thoughts on making a video on DMing Pf2E? I'm starting my first time DMing it in a few weeks. Regardless subbed and belled, can't wait to see what you make next.
This is awesome
This is a tier presentations I will judge all others against. Great presentation, great explanation!
Been looking for more pf2 youtube stuff, this is great!
would love to see this with the multiclass archetypes
Most accurate tier list I've seen yet for PF2.
Great list - appreciate the nuance and range in analysis!
Exceptionally well done!!!
Great analysis. New follower gained.
Just a note, reactive strike on a target that is prone standing up can not make them prone again since the target is prone when reactive strike is triggered. Which is why they are off guard. Reactive strike happens before the action that triggers it. Now disrupt prey on the other hand, can interrupt movement actions and not just manipulate so critting with that can stop them from standing up.
Also EVERY class can be played as F tier. Even a fighter. I have seen it.
Harm font + channel smite + organsight is awesome. And use spell slots for heals. You don't need to heal the party if whatever you are fighting is dead.
For magus...yes scrolls...and wands. But also Wizard and or psychic archetypes. And while a magus alone isn't that powerful, they become lynchpins for teams that are gonna be S tier. When they crit something +4 levels above them on a 8 and doing 700 damage and just removing it from existence. Consolidating damage into a single attack is very potent because of aid. And nobody can do that as good as a magus.
Nice way to do a tier list. I really like it.
Incorrect. That's how it worked in PF1, but in PF2 it was changed so the trigger happens after the action: "If you use a move action but don't move out of a square, the trigger instead happens at the end of that action or ability." So when you reactive strike someone standing up, they're not off-guard and you can potentially knock them prone again.
@elifia umm...okay, but if you are ruling that reaction happen AFTER the triggering action, gnome flickmace and whips are a LOT weaker now on fighter's and anyone with reactive strike and the crit specialization. Because if you crit and trip them, they fall prone after they are done moving out of the threatened square...which will generally be right next to you. So they can just attack at -2. Even with 2 action big attacks. It actually isn't stated explicitly...but the fact that reactions can disrupt actions implies it happens before.
@@ColdNapalm42 No, read the quote again. It says "If you use a move action but don't move out of a square", so it doesn't apply to the situation you just described. Only to move actions that don't actually move you, such as standing up.
@elifia move out of a threatened square also is a trigger. So you ruling that it triggers AFTER the action means they finish moving out of the square, then reactive strike happens. So if a flail with reach crits and they fall prone, it is the the square next to you...not 10 feet away. And like I said, the fact that reaction as a general rule can disrupt or modify effect does imply before anyways. As a side note PFS ruling is before. You can do what you like in your home game...as long as it is consistent.
@@ColdNapalm42 You misunderstand. I'm quoting the actual rules. I'm not ruling anything myself. It says that *if it's a move action* but *you don't leave the square* , THEN it provokes at the end of the action. So if it's a move action but you *do* leave the square, then it *is* before the action.
Good list. I learned a few things about other classes. However, I disagree with your take on Oracle, and how it has nothing really stand out about it.
One, you stated it was confined to the divine list without a way out of it, but Divine Access does do that job rather well for them to get out of that constraint.
Two, I would like to sell you on the advantages of Oracle healing, and that is primarily through its resource and action efficiency. Oracle Curse Healing is both resource and action efficient.
And if you feel Life Oracle is too costly to consider, then pretend this is tempest Oracle who took the Scales feat at level 2.
Cursebound healing is an additional renewable resource in and out of combat. The initial heal is a 1 action ranged heal that heals a flat amount a little weaker than 1-action heal’s average without the gamble of low healing 1-2 HP, that also works at range. Unless a cleric is adjacent to a target, they have no 1-action heal options and in that position a cleric is more vulnerable to the enemy.
At level 10, they get access to an additional amount of cursebound AoE heals that are comparable to actual Heal but only cost 2 actions to cast. Cleric can pick up fast channel at a later level, but at that point, they don’t have the extra 1 action and 3 action healing pool, that Oracles have per encounter.
If we look at offensive blasting, then fortell harm will out-damage dangerous sorcery in single target and two target fights consistently due to how it ignores saving throws.
this is the most comprehensive tier list ive seen since the remaster do you see yourself adding the starfinder 2e classes?
Thank you! I'd definitely have to wait until we get more clarity on what the parity expectations are between the two games- If they're expected to play balanced side by side in the final release, I could see myself adding them.
As is, however, I'm getting initial impressions that they're meant to be mechanically compatible, but based around different balance points- so I'm not sure tossing them onto the same comparison chart would do either game justice.
More than anything, I'd need a lot of time with finished versions of the classes and their respective games.
Amazing and well elaborated, happy to be subscriber 499
I don’t even play pathfinder and this video was thoroughly entertaining and really makes me want to try it. Unfortunately “Oracle” is definitely the coolest sounding class, but based on the tier list is also looks like the least consistent/least powerful ;-;
Don't worry, after the remaster especially the classes are all very playable. Spellcasters can feel bad to play though depending on how you determine your value/enjoyment, but they are objectively very helpful and borderline necessary for a party to function, so its definitely fine to play, just a bit harder to be effective, but when you manage to be effective you can perform more than good enough to justify playing it. It's not like dnd where the worst classes are garbage and the strongest is overpowered
very very in depth. Thank you
Very well made and well spoken video, subbed.
Brilliant Breakdown! Love your deep analysis of the classes. I
Life oracle was crushed with the rework. It's basically just a cleric, but can't make use of anything that makes you unique without drastically putting you at risk. Cleric is just a safer, more flexible, and more reliable life oracle.
I wouldn't say Oracle is left without its niches still- the new (and old!) Life Oracles were very capable of outputting situationally stronger support than a Cleric. It's all about strengths and weaknesses, and I think that applies (generally) to all of Oracle.
But in the same vein, I find that what Oracle excels at now is either something not particularly needed (conduit of void and vitality allowing you to cast a 3-action **heal** or **harm** for 2 actions with a small bonus effect to a single creature) or otherwise outshone (nudge the scales being repeatable 1 action decent healing). Both of these are very solid options, and can absolutely be better than a 2-action heal in some situations, but the sheer potency of what you have to compare them to (whether it be Divine Sorcerer or a Clerical Font, focusing on a single frontliner who soaks up most of the hits) I think brings not only a Life Oracle's general performance, but their top performance into question.
What fully sealed placement for Oracle though was just how little their granted features contribute to their uniqueness now- it's not a dismissible cost to be sure, but with two feat slots (or one, if they're an ancient elf) a Divine Sorcerer can also gain access to the nudge the scales cursebound action. Much of this applies to the other mysteries as well, and these small changes add up to an Oracle that, while certainly not a poor choice, no class is, I don't think can compete at the highest level anymore. It's a shame too, because I love the class.
This was great! Very insightful
So many classes, subclasses, feats of every kind ... how do you gauge or understand all of that?! =D
Repeat practice and trial and error. PF2E has great retraining built into the system and as long as the GM isn’t a jerk, you can really rework a character to test a couple of builds across a campaign.
@@ryansalmon6507 did this 4 times in on campaign when 2e first came out, he was a good sport about it and even let me do it without downtime.
Why do I get the feeling you took statistics at some point love this more nuanced tier list