Japanese Shokunin Saws - the Best Hand Saws for DIY?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ค. 2024
- In today's video I will be putting the Japanese Shokunin Kataba crosscut saw to the test.
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So, Axminster Tools recently got in touch after the inventor of the UJK Parf Guide System saw my video on his system • How to Make an MFT Wor... . They were keen that I try out some of their tools but I've got to say I was a little sceptical when they asked if I would be interested in trying out a couple of their Japanese saws.
Today's Toolkit *
Shokunin Japanese Kataba Crosscut Saw 240mm bit.ly/2XWV8y2
Shokunin Japanese Tatebiki Dovetail Saw - 240mm bit.ly/2DEVy4m
I have now signed up to Axminster's affiliate program. So if you click on one of the above links, it doesn't cost you any extra but gives me a very small commission, which goes some way towards helping me to continue to make this free content. Many thanks!
Axminster sent me two saws - the Shokunin Kataba 240mm Crosscut Saw and the Shokunin Tatebiki 240mm Dovetail Saw. They sat in a box until recently when I had some window boards to cut as part of my bedroom refurb project. The window boards are 25mm MDF and I thought this would be a great project to put the Kataba Crosscut Saw to the test.
I've got to say, I've been pretty impressed with the results. The saw is designed to cut on the pull stroke rather than on the push stroke as is normal with the western saws we are typically used to. Other features of the saw include:
- unlimited depths of cut
- able to cut softwood, hardwood and plywood
- teeth with 3 cutting edges which enables a straight, fast, clean cut
- super hard, nickel plated blade for corrosion protection
The saw was as quick as my Jack universal saw, cut through the wood effortlessly and left almost no splinter marks on the top or the underside of the wood.
So in summary I will be using the Kataba crosscut saw much more often. It has replaced my Irwin Jack floorboard saw as the saw I will go to when I need to make precise, accurate cuts.
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#handsaw #shokunin #pullsaw - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
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I have a couple of Japanese saws, and in all honesty I couldn't do without them anymore, the dovetail saw in particular has revolutionised my dovetails.
These are the kind of reviewvideos that helps me a lot. Just by watching videos like this I know wich product is the best for me. That way I save a lot of money and buy the right one for me. Thanks mate!
Hi Charlie, I got my first Japanese saw a couple of years ago, and after a little practice is now my saw of choice for all precision work. Keep up the videos, you bring real DIY, using affordable tools to the masses.
Thanks Bill - for your thoughts on this and the encouragement is massively appreciated!
I've been using Japanese saws for a while now, I love them! The flexibility of the blade feels weird at first, but once you get used to it, it's simply great!
I used one recently loaned by a friend. I was blown away!
Once you get used to the ‘pull to cut' action it’s awesome. I’m waiting for mine to arrive.
Great video Charlie. I've learnt a lot of useful stuff from you. Please keep it up.
Excellent review these saws look impressive and such clean cuts. Will definitely be investing. Thanks for the demo.
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When you made the cut with the Shokunin it sounded like you were cutting on the push not the pull.
I have a Dozuki-me japanese pull saw, also from Axminster, and the cuts it makes are just unbelievably clean, like a knife cut. Cutting on the pull you don't have to put any force into the cut, just let the saw work it's way through at its own pace.
A great review of these saws. I converted to them around 9 months ago and while a western saw still has its place, I'm turning to my Japanese saws whereI would normally use a tenon or gent saw. Another that I would recommend is a Hassunme Rip Saw which has completely replaced my western saw as fast and effortless as the crosscut saw you featured in my view.
I've got Lie Neilson and Veritas saws, and then I've got 12 Japanese saws. When it gets own to the serious part of furniture making then I go with the Japanese saws. I use the Lie Neilson and Veritas saws on a regular basis and they're both awesome saws. Can't compete with the Japanese saws on needing neat and clean cuts. Good tutorial,. thanks for sharing.
Thanks. Wow that's quite a collection. 👌
I’ve had kataba sae got about 2 years and I’ve never really used it, I think I’ve just changed my mind, keep the Irwin jack for first fixing and I’m using the kataba for second fix work now!
Nice to see this review. I bought one of my Japanese saws from Axminster, and it is a Shokunin as well, basically a Gyokucho made saw labelled with a different brand name. I also have a small razor saw for joints which was shipped from Japan. I have only had these saws for a few weeks so I am still getting used to them. They impress me every time I use them and the first time I made a rip cut with the smaller saw I burst out laughing when I saw the result - a sheen on the cut as if it had been planed! I would not go back to a Western style saw for cuts that need to be accurate because I can already cut more accurately with the Japanese saws.
I use both types of saw but since developing arm and wrist issues due to tendonitis, I find the Japenese saws more comfortable to use, super sharp and easier to control. Once you get used to them you'll love them. I also value the cleaness of their cuts for fine work where the cutting on the reverse cut ensures no breakout or damage to the surface. There are similar Japenese blades for making clean flush cuts which are superb and also for rip cutting.
Thanks for the review Charlie
Love your content Charlie , your channel and insight has helped me amazingly . . Thank you ❤
Nice review Charlie, looks a solid tool!
My go to saw whenever accuracy or delicacy is required. Really useful when making flush cuts in tight situations as the thin blade can be held flat while curving the handle slightly. Takes a while to master the pull stroke action.
I changed to japanese saws around 3 years ago, I wouldn't go back to western saws now. Quite a steep learning curve but once you get your head around them they are great. Get a ryoba for general cuts, double edged for ripping and crosscut. I still get funny looks when I break them out on site however!
ever since i got used to cutting with a japanese pull saw, whenever i go back to using a western saw, cutting on the push stroke feels weird and unnatural. i still use both, but cutting on the pull stroke with any flexible blade just seems not only more intuitive, but just the proper way it should be done. the higher flexibility of the pull saws work wonderfully for flush cutting dowels, etc. glad you liked those saws! :)
I love how he starts to light up the more he used this! What a great and beautiful saw! The Japanese kept mostly to themselves for 100 years with mostly only wood to use for creating. They know wood!
It's a fantastic saw, I've got to say, although there's also nothing wrong with, say an Irwin Jack floorboard saw 👍🏻
Accuracy is great on the Shokunin saw, really good.
I think is a fantastic peace off kit to add to my tools box.
I've been using a Shark Pull Saw for may years an, as you say, the clean cut and ease of use on these saws is quite remarkable. Great video ... AGAIN!
Thanks Norman. They're brilliant, aren't they! I'll be using it again next week for the doors on the wardrobe I'm currently building.
I think one of the reasons the blade can be thinner is because it's cutting under tension rather than compression (i.e. on the pull stroke) so can be thinner. Also because the teeth are inline rather than splayed you can use as flush trim saw too.
I love mine, an older version of the ones you're using from axminster.
Yes that's absolutely right
It is exactly that, the tension straightens the blade.
Unfortunately Charlie used the saw in completely the wrong way. A Japanese saw starts from the nearest side of the work and with the handle down, not up in an American or European style. Once mastered it is very, very accurate.
you can get them both single and double bevel, both work for flush cuts, but with katabas (they are single bevel) you have to turn it the right way round
very fair assessment of the cuts
Thanks!
I was advised to buy one for cutting blinds to size - as you say, no splintering. Great saw.
I've honestly never understood why normal western saws cut on the push stroke instead of the pull, I really think it would be a hell of a lot easier to cut on the pull stroke, another great vid Charlie, keep it up!!
Simple answer Connor... "It's aye been".
almagill that makes no sense to me?
It means tradition, woodworking in Asia evolved differently than it did in the west. Differences in resources, what materials were being cut, how large the materials being cut were, what metals were and weren't available, and cultural difference all influenced how woodworking evolved.
The exact reasons have been lost to history but that's the gist of it...
While it's not really easier or harder either way, just different. Western saws are generally better for rough cutting and getting through large amounts of materials quickly. While Japanese saws are slower but more precise.
Western saws are also easier to sharpen... Japanese saws are more disposable when they get dull, which is why they can be just screwed on and not permanently set in the handle.
Mind, the saw teeth basically function like like a series of chisels. The angle of cut, etc. determine how they interact with the wood and just like with chisels there's many ways that can work for the type of cutting you want to do. The saw is basically one of the original woodworking jigs.
Pull vs push is also not absolute, there's many 2 man saws, for example, among western saws that work both ways. So a lot has to do with intended application and mindset of the style of woodworking being done.
ZeoCyberG wow thank you for such a response and the time it must have taken you to respond, I took a lot away from that! What a brilliant insight :) you know your stuff. Really, thank you.
Def going to get one of these
Great stuff!!
Thanks.
Hello Charlie,
As you don't delve into the finer aspects of cabinate making you should try a Gyokucho Ryoba saw. It's a hair thicker and is a double edged saw. One side is cross cut and the other is a rip saw. It's the Japanese all round workhorse saw more for general woodworking. Also, there's no spine on the Ryoba so there's no limit to depth of cut.
I think it would suit you far more than those you reviewed.
Regards
Alec 😉
I have the Irwin double edged pull saw. Not used it much, but it certainly performs well. I'm interested to see what experience will do, as the pull-saw technique is a new style of sawing.
Hi Charlie, I will get one of these saws to try for myself. Completely agree with your comments about normally cutting on the push and it feeling strange. Your cuts looked great, but I think you were still trying to cut on the push. Im sure it is hard to instantly swap over. Really like your channel, some great tips. Thanks bud.
You're probably right Gary, habit of a lifetime and all that. That said it still cuts brilliantly - massively recommend it! Thanks for the positive comments - much appreciated 👍
Hi Charlie, I also had my doubts, but I’ve just won a set of 3 in a competition, they are another brand that Axminster sell called Zetsaw, I have to say they are amazing and produce such nice clean cuts, I’ve just subscribed to your channel too 👍🏼
Thanks so much for the sub, Terry. Yes still loving mine, and used them in particular for trimming the routed decorative beading on my current wardrobe project.
I love my Japanese saw, I like to use a Ryoba, double edged.
all my saws plug in now :)
General comment about all your videos. Excellent videos. Essential viewing.
Hi Charlie, I like you have the "Jack saw", the "floorboard saw", and several "Japanese saws" I don't often use the "English saws" anymore because I like the Japanese saws so much more. I recently had a chance to use a Japanese plane also and I like them as well, but I use my electric plains Thicknesser/planer, and if I do use a smaller plain I have an electric one of those as well. When I am at the caravan I have to use hand tools as we don't have electric there, but I do all the plaining at home first.
Hi John, thanks for the thoughts and experiences. Like you I'm particularly attached to my electric plane although I have an old block plane which I love for the delicate jobs. Yes, I'm very impressed with the Japanese saw - it's replaced the Irwin Jack floorboard saw in my tool box!
I love pull-saws. For precision and a fine cut (both sides) they are amazing. But the teeth are not as hard as the big Irwin (which I also use). I will be very interested to see what insulation you used on the walls.
Very inspired by your stop-chamfered stiles and rails on those windows, where did you get the idea - just lovely mate! Was it your own idea, traditional or revival? Anyway looks fab!
I have been using Japanese double edge saw during lockdown and still cuts as well now as when i 1st bought it from lidl for £7.00, 1 edge for cross cuts and other is pull saw
Yes, they're lovely little saws. For the nearest UK equivalent, these are pretty good too bit.ly/3ouveQ8
Japanese hand tools in general are awesome.the saws ,the planes, the chisels, and Japanese razor files .after using Japanese hand tools I will never use anything else.there more accurate and precise require less effort and produce finer results.
shinto rasp is the best.
@@h6966 yes it is.i use one often to carve guitar necks.also I really like the iwasaki files.
lovely demo and a really nice saw. 1 quick question, how did you round off the edge of the window board?
Love my Japanese saw
They're awesome, aren't they👍🏻
The Lidl ones I got are great, £5.99 I think I paid, two cutting edges on the one blade with different TPI, much nicer to use than my ordinary saws.
Hi Charlie, I too purchased my first Japanese pull saw several year's ago - in Japan of all places.
I'd seen them here on specialist woodwork websites, and recommended on various TH-cam channels by fine woodworkers. At the time, they were rather expensive, coming in at £50 to £80 pounds.
Now, I'm not a fine woodworker, but I just loved the clean, neat, straight and plumb cuts they can make.
I bought mine from a Japanese DIY store, Homac I think it's called. The first one I bought was also a cross cut, costing around £30, but specifically for hardwood, I had terrible results on mdf skirting. I went straight back to using a Jack saw until I googled the cover and did a bit more research. The Japanese saws also come in universal varieties, and that made all the difference.
What I will say is, like myself initially , you seem to be giving the push stoke more oomph than the pull. It is very strange at first, but that is why the blades can be so much thinner: cutting on the pull stroke doesn't make the blade bend and, consequently, wander. Just an observation based on my own experience.
When I first rocked up onsite with one, I got strange looks and the odd snigger. But when you're snagging, and can't fire up a chop saw in a finished apartment - or justify the time and effort to lug one up 7 flights for a couple of cuts - a pull saw with a magnetic guide, whether bought or made (Google it) is an absolute Godsend!
Now, of course, you see them more often - even onsite - and nobody takes any notice.
Enjoy the new toy!
I've bought and used these saws in the past. They seemed ok but as a professional woodworker I prefer brass backed tenon saws and panel saws!
Use universal for rough work and pull saws for everything else! Wouldn't go back now for anything!👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
They make some thicker Ryoba saws that are really great for rough work too.
Also very noticeable is the very fine kerf. The Japanese saws cut on the pull stroke so it also follows your line which if marked with a knife will give you an even more perfect finish
Hands down the Japanese carpentry tools are the most useable tools and when you get into their wood planes as well and become more used to using them you will find the finish they give is also far superior to any steel bodied planes that the western tool makers try to peddle and to add to this is their selection of chisel which are on a whole different level to any western chisel which are really not very good for anything except roughing in dirty old hardwood
I do a great deal of woodwork and I have every plane in the Stanley tools lineup and ever since I discovered Japanese tools I have very rarely used any of them except my trusty little adjustable throat block plane and a couple of finger planes , I pretty much only use my Japanese carpentry tools and never use power tools
Great video as always and really impressed with that saw.
Might just have to invest in one.
Thanks Gordon. You should. Got to say I thought it was a bit of a gimmick when I saw it, but I'm a massive convert and by the sounds of it, it's a key tool in every serious carpenter's tool box 😉
Good one Charlie, as ever. My first experience of a Japanese saw was a cheapo purchase from Lidl, they certainly have a place in my DIY life and after watching this I will now know where to go for the real deal.
On an aside, what's the name of the script font you used for the captions?
Keep 'em coming, great quality presentations. Thanks
Robert Evans. I bought one in Lidl myself today before I saw this video. Haven't used it yet. What did you think of it. Not expecting loads from it at €8.99.
@@michaelkelly3356 Not sure which you have bought, I have one about 220mm and another 300mm, they're brilliant on the precise model making stuff, but I have not used for the more serious stuff shown in Charlie's vid. I will certainly be upgrading to the next level one day.
@@michaelkelly3356 I bought a LIDL with a spare blade a while back, main problem is the blade is extremely thin and buckles on the forward movement very easily if you are not careful, I'd previously had a Irwin pull saw which was better but Irwin could not supply replaceable blades and they only suggested I try Ebay etc though surely the point of being able to remove the the blade from the handle is you can buy blades only to fit - not with Irwin it seems. Very disappointing because it otherwise was ok to use,. Not sure if other brand blades were compatible but would have been taking a chance to try.
To me it looks like you were using the Japanese saw like a western one. By the sound the saw was making it looked like you were cutting on the push stroke. The saw was then cutting too slowly. Also I would position the piece differently to cut by pulling the saw down, not up.
This is just my observation. I may be wrong, I wasn't there.
That was my observation too... I use Japanese saws.
Totally take that on board guys and you might be right - I never actually thought about whether I was using it properly - which is ridiculous when you think about it - I guess I assumed it would only cut on the pull stroke. Not sure I could use it from below but I'll give it a go!
@@CharlieDIYte Yes' I was about to comment in a similar vein when I saw this comment. I use them too and I always, well almost always, have my hand lower than the work so gravity helps on the power stroke, which is downwards.The opposite to western saws.
i agree sounds like weston saw,should be sawing down
Hi, That Shokunin blade is really a Gyokucho? I thought I saw the logo on the other side of the blade.
I saw these in the Axminster store. They are Gyokucho saws sold under a different name, I have no idea why. Been using them for years, (Workshop heaven has them) they are nicer than Z-saw in my experience, not as good as a true hand made saw but less brittle. Ps, you need to pull with more confidence, using more of the length of the blade, no pressure at all on the push stroke, it takes a while if you are used to using Western saws.
Try cutting with the handle of the saw below the wood you are cutting (i.e Cut away from yourself rather than towards your self) and you''ll find that the saw dust falls to the floor, rather than building up on the surface)
there is no turning back after using these Japanese saws, bought a set of Gyokuscho saws recommended by samurai carpenter, can't remember the last time I have used my traditional saw....
Two things. First I’m sure you would injure you index finger after prolonged use of those saws. Second wasn’t awkward having to hold a hoover in one hand while trying to cut with the other.
You should consider working the saw from under the workpiece, but still looking down from the top, especially when cutting into the internal corners. This is how the saw is meant to be used. You are still thinking in the European way. The other advantages of this saw is its thin kerf and the fact that it can perform a flush cut without damaging the surrounding work piece. All in all a much better design than a western style push saw.
I want one!
They're really good. I used both mine a lot on the recent wardrobe build.
I use Japanese saws a lot (not this make). They are very well made and cut very fast. After using a push saw I think you need to get used to them to get the best out of them but it's worth it. You don't have to have a rattan handle.
Hi Charlie, really interesting review arriving just in time for my kitchen make over !!! How do you go about sharpening this saw? Again thanks for your whole series.
Thanks Paul. With difficulty is the answer as they have three sharpened edges. I guess the point is that you'd never sharpen a universal saw, you'd just throw it away and whilst these are more expensive than your average universal saw, they stay sharp for a lot longer so actually in the long run work out about the same price as a typical throw away saw.
Japanese saws are triple edge and they're hardened. That's why the blade is replaceable in the handle. You don't sharpen them. You get a new blade. Folks say the old blades can make good card scraper stock. But yeah the inability to sharpen pull saws is a negative that's brought up a lot about them. Not to say that sharpening western style saws is a good time for most of us. It can be one of those easier said than done activities.
@@1pcfred thanks Paul your help is most appreciated.
@@paulnoble8695 even with the files, the vise, a number of saw sets, loads of practice and watching more video tutorials on the subject than I can remember sharpening hand saws is still easier for me to say than do.
Now I need a Japanese saw.
Unfortunately you're right.
You should be clamping your timber and using the Kataba two handed giving you greater control over the cut. ie no blade tilt or drift
Nice video.
Thanks!
I would have cut and installed the window boards prior to plaster boarding,you then could have cut them with a jigsaw.
I think that little toothless spot at the tip is used to help level a cut.
Hey, I wanted one and now I have my excuse🤓
Kendoist here, the rattan sold me.
I just bought one but haven’t used it yet.
It's a lovely saw, Larry. Particularly good for micro fine, wafer thin cuts that you occasionally need to make. Hope you enjoy using it.
I know this is an old video, but do you still use this saw? How does it compare to just using a jigsaw for these cuts, which is what I'd normally reach for.
Yes I do use it still. Pretty sure it makes a cameo in this video and many others over the years. th-cam.com/video/4ylDeQXv1k0/w-d-xo.html A jigsaw is a very different animal. I trend to use mine for curved cuts - where a straight cut is not essential, although you can get a half decent straight cut with a jigsaw by running it against a guide. You get lovely clean cuts with the Japanese saw because it's so sharp and the blade is so thin.
I was in Japan last month a found a small japanese saw that you could choose the handle and blades i think there were at least 3 handle styles and 10 blades. So all interchangeable I was tempted but thought I'll wait till next trip.
hi guys which saw is good to use to kitchen tops please?
Skill saw
jig saw with a laminate blade
A tracksaw with a thin kerf blade... Worktops are usually rather thick, and tend to be constructed in a way that makes the first 5-10mm harder than the centre. I assume you're referring to straight cuts or sink and hob installations. With the latter, I use a pull saw to complete the cut.
It seems that pull saws do really fine cuts, Western saws doing that are made today look for back saws.
Lidl sells these
Hi Charlie, unless you are sending them back then in a sense you are being paid - not much, admittedly, but you would get to keep them. BobUK.
Time to change the saw logo on your logo Charlie?😃
you have to pull down with Jack. because when you pushed it you might bend it so can't make a straight cutting.
There tricky to use. I bought the Lidl one to practice on & then i bought the Irwin Japanese saw. About £15. & very good quality.
If you want the best edge using a Japanese saw; saw from the underside.
Thanks John 👍
Try this one Charlie. Con:P B25320 Japanese Pull Saw £8.21 on Amazon. Great reviews.
Had mine for 2 years plus & it’s still razor sharp. You’ll love it
I watch Scott Brown carpentry using these all of the time and he swears by them. However in this test to be fair you are comparing a brand new never used before saw against 2 older ones but I do think the results would possibly be the same anyway
Kyoyushite itadaki arigatogozaimasu 🙅🏻♂️
Wow. Please translate?!
@@CharlieDIYte. It means "Thank you very much".
As a wannabe DIY'er, I just received my first one based on the recommendation of Wranglerstar. I'm so excited to get the rest of my supplies to work on my projects.
Who's dieing to blow as he cuts haha?
Dying
nope
Completely off the subject - do any of you fellow subscribers know where I can buy metal curtail rails? I am doing my bedroom and want that lovely swish of the curtains being drawn. I last bought some 35 years ago for my daughter's bedroom (different house) and hadn't realised they have gone the way of many of my childhood things. I don't want plastic! Thank you.
Dunelm Mill (now just Dunelm) do an array of metal curtain rails.
Yep as below, dunelm
Thank you for that but they are not what I want. They are metal poles. I want the old curtain rails. You are probably too young to know about them! Sort of an H shape rail which is fitted to 'arms' which themselves can be fitted to a board. Pelmet.The gliders are metal which makes that satisfying noise😀 think Miss Marple. They were sold everywhere once upon a time. I am thinking car boot perhaps. Thanks again.
Janet Diesnis
Aluminium , made or called swish, I remembered them, they were available in plastic or aluminium
@@brianbarber1728 cheers. I will have another look on t'internet later. Just looking at paint for my floor...55euros. Solid gold apparently! I am in France so I did know to expect a stupid price. Brought Ronseal back and it is fab. Doing all the floors now!
This is the purchase link of the item in the video：www.amazon.com/dp/B087RGL6C5
I think that test was counter-productive. You should've used three seperate pieces of wood because the moment you made your first cut you introduced a springyness to the next cut, and by the time you got to the third you might as well have been on a trampoline - Re-do the test or those Japanese will be sending the boys round ;-)
Git one from Lidl
I just did it saves a hell of a lot of energy, my spine is knackered so 👍 for anything that requires less strength
You’re putting a brand new premium saw against a couple of tired old general purpose saws that you’ve had kicking about for donkey’s and it cuts better.🤔
You make a valid point with new vs. old saws. I would not call that particular Japanese saw premium though. But it is a cut above those Irwins. Both of which have seen better days besides. There's nothing to be done as far as sharpening any of these saws go either. They're all hardened. Hand sawing is basically an anachronistic activity in this day and age. Sure some folks still do it, but to do it you do have to go to some lengths today to do it right. Read shell about $120+ for a real tool. Then you have to learn a lot of technique to do it.
If you use some oil on the blade, it will speed up your cut even more. It also protects the surface
Please resist the urge to harakiri yourself
Not trying to be a d*** here, but listening to the sawing action with the Japanese saw, it almost seems like you handled it as if it cut on the forward stroke. Force of habits perhaps? ;-))
We can force those rice eating saws to work how they're supposed to.
@@1pcfred yeah just turn that damned saw around and hold the blade instead of the handle. That'll teach it for reversing its teeth! Lol
@@AquaPeet That's what Vise Grips are for!
@@1pcfred it becomes morecand more impractical. I like it!!
@@AquaPeet I made a handle and put it on a gent saw once. Those straight handles are just not for me. Very uncomfortable to use.
maybe its just the video but I swear you are pushing that poor Japanese saw.
It's all a bit of fashionable pretentious bullshit if you ask me. You can buy an Irwin saw for £8, and one of these is £22! I've been using handsaws for 35 years I'm not changing to some ponce saw now!
You're going to say good things about the saw, you get more free stuff that way.
If you cannot get a decent cut with your saw it's not the saws fault!!
I've been a carpenter for 30 years and think the same as you..