Unsung Photographer I make it a point to. Have this "drill" I do every time I set up, exposure of grey, balance on white, zoom in focus, frame out,.. I am seeing mistakes in past snaps.,..the histogram info has helped a great deal..thanks so much sir.
JustEdit color balance and white balance are two entirely different things. Although grey cards are frequently used for white balance that was not their original purpose.
I think both are correct in one sense. Obviously the grey card gives us the correct exposure. But i guess this can also be used as white balance card. Though the name is white balance but the camera manufacturer color science is set in such a way that it calibrate every color in the photo considering the neutral grey card. But 3 color confused me a bit. In photoshop we can set our shadows midtones and height lights. May be grey for mid, white for highlight and black for shafows.
Many Thanks. I've learnt something new. I will have to wait for at least 5 months to enjoy the warm and sunny weather like yours. Right now in London, I just need to point the camera into the sky during the day and I will get both the right exposure and white balance; it is just a massive grey card!
New sub. The calibrated color grid is intended as a post production reference. 1. WHITE CARD: Set your white balance, then... 2. GRAY CARD: Set your exposure, then... 3. COLOR GRID: Take a frame of the grid to be used as a baseline reference for matching in PP
Speaking as one of those video folks (for example, I was taught the trick of using my jeans to get a warm look) I would say I highly prefer to use grey cards instead of white. I reason thusly: 1. White, grey and black are basically the same colorwise. The only difference should be in the lightness of the tone. 2. In video we have more often than not very little wiggleroom when it comes to highlight exposures. Most of us are still stuck with 8bpc h264 chroma subsampled video. It's basically moving jpegs as opposed to RAW. This means that if the white card gets over exposed it becomes a HORRIBLE sample for white balancing. Because if one of the color channels get clipped and you try to sample there it will tilt the whole set of colors to make what it thinks is white to become evenly white. Clip the red channel and you get blue green tint, and so on. Middle grey however rarely gets into clipping range since they are made to be in the range of human skin and more often than not we don't want to over expose those tones anyway. 3. White balance and color balance really are two different things anyway with different goals. White balance is often enough to get a pretty accurate image on the go. Which is why it's centered around a single sample. It is designed for ENG news crews and documentary film workers. Speed is of the essence. And pointing the camera at neutral grey and tapping the button was... well... good enough. In a studio setting. Especially one with several cameras that may not even be of the same manufacturer, you may need to cut between them and don't want the tones of red for example to shift around even though the whites are accurate for each camera. So here you have a person specialized at just that. With a color target you can build up, essentially a color lookup table (a LUT) that accurately maps each input color to a standardised output color. This way they all look the same. And 4. In order to get a decent sample of a white card you still need to under expose it anyways to avoid the clipping issues. So using a grey card really takes out an unnecessary step in that chain. But it is also true that lots of people know not how to white balance using these at all. Just like with using them for exposure they absolutely have to be in the same light as the subject being filmed or photographed. That includes not using temporarily illuminating only the card.
hey done mix tone or grading with the function of white balance, white balance has nothing to do with grading tones, it is only used to correct true colors, exposure is for grading light from dark, WB has nothing to do with grading high lights mid tone etc. hahaha what are you taking about
You can just set your camera to screen in B&W and pick the whitest/grayest object in your frame as a color reference. That's more than enough most of the time. Unless you really need to reproduce color very accurately such as in fashion, product and some sessions of architecture photography.
As a Grandpa photographer, I enjoyed your Video, enjoyed the children's voices and the dog panting. Thanks for sharing your WB tips. For years I used a White Coffee filter held over my lens with a rubber band to set my Custom WB. Pointed at the light source, it worked well.
Interesting video and thank you for sharing you knowledge and experience. Currently I use a Color Checker Passport for almost all my photography especially when shooting under unusual lighting conditions and it works very well and is well worth the discount price paid during a holiday sale. I still have my full size Kodak grey card purchased in 1970, but it's likely faded even though it's been kept in the original folder. And yes, the grey card was meant as an exposure aid back in the day and is still usable for that purpose when shooting either very dark or very light objects such as cars and some flowers. The incident light meter is also good for proper exposure on light or dark objects and I tend to use that nowadays as opposed to the grey card.
Old grey cards may have been primarily for exposure reference, but modern ones sold as such should be color balanced as fully as a white card; either can be off by subtle but measurable, and distinguishable, degrees; either can be shot with different exposures to appear white, gray, or black, but none should have a noteworthy color tint. Also, once one has a proper card, it is imperative to set the balance with the card ideally perpendicular to the camera, in the same ambient light orientation as the subject. That means not flat on a table, under an umbrella, with the photographer hovering over it, unless that is where the subject is going to be shot.
Loved the dog pant and t-shirt! Thanks for clarifying the use of grey cards for exposure. I'm just beginning and it's confusing seeing more videos than not on TH-cam saying it's for white balance.
It can be used for white balance. What I am pointing out is the tools history leads us to another use as well. It can be used to fine tune exposure by shooting the card in the light you use for your subject the adjusting the histogram spike to the center. A "white " ( which is actually a light grey ) card is better for white balance because it does not require as much light. Check the background of the you tubers you watch. Look for a portfolio and professional experience. It will be easier to weight the info you receive. This isn't the greatest production but I am a pro who's been shooting for 40 years. My information is correct. Give it a try and let me know how it works for you.
Actually, I get the same exact results using either a white card commercially made for white balance or the GREY card. When checking the RGBW histogrtam, I see equal values of Red, blue, Green and white. Therefore, the white is balanced. Period.
Sure, if the gray card is spectrally neutral there's no difference. You can do either (or both- correct with color curves not the eyedropper and neutralize multiple points instead of just white).
With all due respect, sir, I believe you have been misinformed. Grey cards and any type of neutral standard grey, white or black card REALLY ARE for white balance. Whether or not they were originally used for exposure metering is indeed interesting, but ultimately irrelevant. In fact, in the histograms that you show, you can see that the peak is separated into different colour channels and that these are offset by a certain amount (in other words they do not perfectly overlap). This relative offset of your colours from each other is what we refer to when we say "white balance" (though strictly speaking I believe this would depend on the colour space within which we are operating). In fact the other type of card you are showing is not made, strictly speaking, for white balance (though it does have some neutral standards on it from which you can calibrate your white balance... and these are equivalent to the grey cards you speak of). The colour palette and associated software are for calibrating "colour profiles". A colour profile is a mathematical model that transforms your sensor's measured colours to an absolute ICC standard. Colour profiles can be calibrated somewhat independently from white balance (though that is not always strictly true).
Guillaume Pelletier if you watch the video you will see that in essence I agree. However this video discusses the uses for setting exposure and the reason Kodak developed the grey card for film. Thanks for the long comment.
so many genius people, why did they call it white balance if you weren't supposed to use white, tell the camera manufacturers to name it grey balance, IQ white balance for white, have you read you camera manual on custom white balance? do they say use a gray card?
OLD gray cards like the Kodak 18% were strictly for exposure, and their grays were not neutral. A real neutral gray card made for white balance is very neutral. The problem with using white cards is overexposure. A white card is easily overexposed in bright lighting conditions, and will throw your color balance off.
if you are talking about grading or tones grade, white balance has nothing to do with that, white balance is only concern with color corrections, getting the colors right not tone graded, the proper step is to get the right expose before color correcting with custom white balance
In about 1994 I put 12 KODAK "gray Cards" brand new side by side butted against each other in a 3 x 4 panel to evaluate the neutrality of the cards. They were NOT the same. They had casts from magenta to yellow to green. Kodak said they were designed for exposure NOT for color balance or gray (white) balance.
I NEED that tee shirt. Interesting argument, I use both the grey card and Spyder colour checker, and I have multiple profiles in Lightroom, however for landscapes I just use the colour card and nothing for wildlife. The problem is the digital sensor doesn't "understand" white. It works on the premiss that the world is 18% grey and all other colours and shades are a variation of this grey. So it needs to be told what the perfect grey is and thus can give you white and all the other colours. Admittedly the warmth of ambient light of the day will affect this grey, but nowhere near as much as it would any lighter shades of grey that we might call white. That is where the colour checker comes in. Remember how when developing monochrome film we would use lush grass as middle grey? At no point did we look for white unless we were using infrared filters. A very interesting video that has opened up debate, and for that I've subscribed. I do hope the dog found somewhere to cool off.
Gidday William,that was very informative and i had no idea that a grey card was originally intended for exposure.I would like to see more videos from you, although i would not blame you in the slightest if you decided not to bother.You have comments from people not getting the point you were making or getting their knickers in a knot because you have a dog that pants and a young grandchild that was enjoying himself in the backyard.It's called life,maybe some people should go out and get one.I have dogs and remember the laughter of my kids that were once toddlers.I thought the background sounds made your presentation more intimate and i enjoyed every part of it..Thanks mate and cheers from Australia.
I love my X-Rite Passport. It’s so small and expensive so I was reluctant to get it but it’s worth it. And it’s well made. And has several “pages” with different tools. Love it. Also, I was occasionally using grey cards to white balance. I heard somewhere at some point in my past that it was better because “neutral grey” or something. LOL, I don’t know. I think the focus mark on the grey side made me think that was the side to white balance on because I not only had to fill my frame with the color I was white balancing on, but the frame had to be in focus for best results. So I’d zoom in, focus and set white balance. Perhaps you can answer me this... DO you have to be in focus on the surface you’re white balancing on? Or would being out of focus actually HELP because you’re averaging/smoothing out any variations in the surface (any creases/shadows in the fabric, maybe there’s two different color ambient light sources... so you’re averaging that all out?
The reason we use grey in photography is to avoid the risk of inadvertently clipping a channel when measuring off a white surface. This is particularly important if you make a WB preset on a Nikon as the camera actually increases the exposure by one stop during the process. Carry on using grey, you'll come to no harm, but don't use the old Kodak grey cards as they contain a lot of green. When using a color checker you balance off one of the grey squares, not the white one!
Very informative, thanks ....I had to have a laugh when the dog started panting right into the mic at the end ...never work with kids or animals eh? :)
Now you made me think! what you said seems to make sense to me. If we are talking about shutter speed and aperture we are talking about exposure I guess. Thanks.
I use a 25% reflectance digital grey-card for making custom white balances which are extremely accurate. I set my sensor to base ISO, then set my vanilla exposure for calculating the white balance to the middle of the histogram. I tilt the card to 45 degrees to the sun, then make the white balance. The grey-card is free from illuminant metamerism, and consider it a vital piece of kit. Traditional Kodak grey-cards are of 18% reflectance (Ansel Adams got it wrong) and are meant for setting the exposure - not - for making white balances. I also have a cube with white and grey surfaces, a black hole, and with a steel ball bearing attached. With this I can set black and white points, mid exposure, white balance, and set the clipping point for specular highlights.
Good video.I actually got the colour rite passport the other long after doing a little sketch for our channel where me and my friend were in the same sketch but both filmed separately in order to composite them. I got so frustrated that my shots and his shots had different hue despite the exposure being close to similar based of 75IRE zebra. But being a bit closer to a yellow gel lamp does a lot to colour.And I love the colour passport. You forgot to mention that The white, grey and black are actually there to being that black point in your paot processing software to just above clipping black and white just below clipping white. To use the whole dynamic range. That is also part of the colour passport video and made my life so much easier.Because what you otherwise use in your shot as true black or true white gets very arbitrary.This at least gives you calibrated values like you said -- at least all images are consistent.
Get your exposure right or better and you'll have improved your white balance nearly every time. I've watched a few old school videos like this. What you forget is that in the old days of film, post processing basically didn't exist as an option. Nowadays processing in post can be done by everybody. Actually post processing is considered part of the creative process. So, no need to worry so much about the technicalities of a bygone age. Using grey cards is fine.
Optimology the more you take care of in camera, the less post is required. If you have the luxury of time in your workflow them a lot can be done in post. If, however, your turn around time is limited, then "getting it right in camera" is the way to go. This isn't "old school" it is a different and faster work flow. Film didn't require white balance at all. You bought daylight or tungsten and controlled you light accordingly. You must get find that some tried and true methods help post to be more of a creative stage than a fix it phase.
Optimology: I absolute agree with the video. I guess you can be called artist when you fix your work with the computer, but as long as I know, movies are shot in film and the cinematographers are those guys that rarely look at the screens; they understand light, photography and camera and are aware that the best information possible that can be put in a the film (or sensor), the best. The question is, how long do people spend taking photos vs how long do they spend in the computer trying to fix what could have done on the scene? If you have this mentality, you'll become a better photographer and spend more time shooting.
always use a light meter.....I don't like to shoot 15 frames of the same image...I bracket half a stop each way and I use my light meter to measure high lights and the darkest spots and see if my camera will cover the dynamic range....if it doesn't I will wait an hour or so......I couldn't live without a meter despite how good in camera meters have become but when you want the best tonal range possible they are necessary and plus you do not need to fill cards with numerous bracketed shots
i use a very white type writing paper for custom white balance in camera, in post you can use the grey card, if you don't intend to custom white balance in camera, either way in post it will still be corrected if your gray card was in the picture, i learn something new what the grey card tool is truly for, great video, i still use white for in camera color balance and now implemeting the grey for right exposure when manual, many thanks grandpa
For white balance you want a target that is actually spectrally neutral. Here's an independent test of a few. The X-Rite Photo Passport is a good choice in my experience. www.leeminglutpro.com/whitebalance.html
Wait! People use a grey card for white balance? As Mr Spock would say: “That’s illogical!” LOL “Exposure” .. of course! In the context of the subject matter that you are shooting, it’s a good “start” for finding “perfect exposure”. Getting to the final exposure might take more work. Thanks!
By far the best explanation of this function, big thanks! By chance can you make a video on speed lights? ..I don't understand why my speed light has a apperchure, thanks so much. You are a great detailed teacher.
Thank you very much. I’m glad you took the time to watch. Some older speed lights had aperture markings in order to assist the auto functions. Most speedlights have fractions listed as a fraction of full power. 1/8 , 1/4 of full power. Speed lights are a great subject. I will work something up.
Right on and solid, i am hell bent on mastering manual "everything" my 50mm is from the 80's manual. I was able to fully understand the appeture/zoom/shutter /iso on the camera but not why on my flash gun..lol Thanks so much for your wisdom on the matter of available lighting ,.. .keep clicking. ..lol
The 'aperture' value on your speedlight is to help you know how far the light beam will spread. Matching the value of the aperture on the speedlight & lens will keep the flash (if it's located at the same position as the lens) from 'lighting beyond what the lens will see' (aka a flash at 24mm v.s. the lens at 50mm) which would be a waste of power/light or from lighting 'more in the middle and less at the edges' of what your lens can see (aka a flash at 80mm v.s. the lens at 35mm) and causing a hotspot of brightness. Hope that makes sense.
I have also learned that grey is for exposure. BUT, after doing close to 100 tests and comparisons with the grey cards and white cards I have, I’ve found that white balancing with ONE of my grey cards gets the white balance to a color which is more tru to life compared to any of the white cards I have. Have you tried black balancing your camera?
My current cameras do not support black balance. That is much more common in video land. No one says that you shouldn't use a grey card for white balance. Simply that that was not the original intent. I do use the x-rite color system when seeking to color correct vs basic white balance.
Regarding the Colorchecker Passport, as it isn't entirely clear in the video; the white balance target you showed, the larger light grey patch, IS a white balance reference. The best way to use it is to, shooting in raw, shoot it in the lighting scenario you're in (mixed lighting aside) and then sample it in post production and then sync it across all images from that particular lighting scenario.
Daniel Medley that method is true with any grey source for whit balance. I would suggest you use the full color set with that tool for the best results.
@@unsungphotographer3412 That's for creating a camera profile. They are two separate things. Even after creating the profile you still use one of the WB patches. The idea is to establish a consistent baseline.
@@danielmedley3486 I watched this entire video and have watched several on the Passport. I would agree with Daniel Medley that white balance and color balance are two different animals. The Passport color checker aka Macbeth Color Chart is used to create a camera profile, not to white balance. As a retired professional portrait photographer, I and other professionals found it virtually impossible to match what we saw on our monitors with he finished print because of all the intricate factors in the entire color process including the printers and associated equipment at the professional color lab. We hope to get the color match and final product at least “in the ballpark as close as we could”. The other alternative which is what most pros relied on was leave color AND the printing process to the discretion of the lab technicians who do this day in and day out every single day and have developed a keen eye. So, color is a combination of a myriad of factors along the way and the most important thing of all is to develop a consistent workflow that will deliver you the end product that you are trying to achieve.
Thanks for your video ,if you set the exposure using grey card in outdoor,how do u adjust the exposure for shallow depth of field ,most of the time it will give exposure for deep depth of field
Good question! Depth of field can be controlled by shifting your f stop and compensating with shutter speed or iso on a digital camera. If you open aperture one stop the you must increase your shutter or undo by one stop to compensate. Some cameras use a system called exposure values which makes this adjustment easier.
I use the gray card to calibrate my incident meter to my lens as each lens will give you a slightly different result as far as exposure is concerned. And I'd rather carry an incident meter than a gray card.
I got rid of my Seconic as I just balance off the white card now a days. But for real intricate lighting set ups yeah a meter can help calculate and adjust lights.
Good information, but I'm still a bit fuzzy on what the black (or dark grey) card does. I'm clear on the white and grey card, but.... is it also for accurate exposure of your camera's blacks? Thanks for an interesting video.
I agree that the typical grey card such as the Kodak Grey Card is for exposure. That’s because Kodak didn’t really care if the grey was pure. There are pure grey cards made for white balance such as the WhiBal. It works.
Well... all greys are "not so bright whites" or "whites in shadow". So I think there is one more difference between "white point" and "white balance". Oh and BTW even the brightest patch on the Color Checker is not white, technically. It is 243/243/242 in 8bit sRGB profile, where 255 255 255 is D65 illuminant ( = de facto white point). When doing white balance, you must in fact check greys.
Im new to this and thank u for sharing ur knowledge with us. So my question is how often and when should one us the gray card to correct exposure? Is it possibe to use it a lot in situations such a photo shoot, street photography? Etc. Even balancing the white balance. Same question apply. Thank u once again
Isaypreach there are many variables in that question. The broad answer would be to have it as an option when you want an incident reading. Like you would use a light meter when holding it next to your subject.
To refer to the ColorChecker Passport as simply "cardboard glued to a piece of plastic" is a great disservice to novices who came here to learn. That little package of calibrated targets, which he was holding upside down, isn't the main part of that product. He didn't mention the software that goes with it, which is for creating DNG files in post. He certainly didn't explain the targets it contains well at all. People came to this video to learn something, attracted by a title he repeatedly admitted in his responses above as misleading "don't judge it by the title, watch the video." That the title is misleading is one problem. The rambling content is another. He blows off those who corrected his misstatements by telling them to "watch the video," though they obviously had, and were correcting him; and by saying he has "40 years of experience." That's silly. It's the same as saying, "How dare you question me -- I've misunderstood this stuff for 40 years!" -- And 40? Why, that's actually a little longer than digital photography's even been available, and more than twice as long as the general shift from film to digital. Yet his video is full of disjointed references to electronic processes and the targets to base them on. So... is it 40 years of knowing what an 18% gray card is? Fine, but just say that and that only. Correct us, that the white-balance targets we're using aren't 18% gray, though so many people "call" them 18% gray. (I don't like that, either, but... oh well). But why not just stick with that, then? ..... No doubt his experience is laudable (though he isn't specific about what that experience is). Maybe he's done a lot of great photography in that time. But a lot of people have done a great job of something without being able to explain it to someone else. Plenty of people drive cars very well, who can't rebuild an engine -- some can't even change a tire. Why in the world would anyone think *they* should be the one's making TH-cam videos how to rebuild cars or change tires? What was the point of this video? It wasn't to help aspiring photographers. ---- But, no permanent damage done. As with anything, all of us, each and everyone, must take responsibility for our own education. Anyone who really wants to learn will not stop here with a "Cool Grampa's" post from his backyard with pup and grandchild. There are more authoritative, more trustworthy sources on the Web to cross-reference any information either completely misrepresented or incoherently explained in this video.
Very informative video. I am trying understand how grey card works. Well I am just starting adventure with photography with my pentax k70. I need to buy x rite colorchecker passport or at least grey card. What you guys propose? That passport (X-Rite MSCCP ColorChecker Passport with Free Affinity Photo) cost about 80 pounds on amazao uk. Any suggestions for a photo starter? Thanks.
I would only make that big an investment if you have a paid assignment that requires color accuracy. For a beginner a simple grey card to set exposure and white balance is just fine. Affinity is a very interesting Photoshop Challenger. I would give that a try to see if it suits you.
Finally, someone who knows what a grey card is for. And of course, it comes from another guy who has grey hair and started with film like me. I also love your shirt. Rock on grandpa.
you are so wrong grey card is fine for WB because WB is all about getting the correct colour temperature of the light ie balancing out any colour cast So grey is a balanced colour with NO colour cast....
It might have been much better if you explained that to use the white card for making a custom WB in camera, the gray one is perfect for making a WB on a RAW in PP... It's no good giving out half of the details when teaching.
I would still suggest you watch the video. This is really more about alternative uses for whit and grey cards. I shoot all of my work in Raw. I don't set custom white balances in camera. I shoot my reference on a fixed white balance in raw and use those references in post.
read you camera manual man, grey card have nothing to do with with white balance, you are miss informed really, what is white on gray hahaha, it called white balance, not grey balance, IQ please
even your camera manual will tell you to use white card, not many people read manuals, they rely more on youtube hahaha, i was searching for a video like this too
Pretty sure they use a grey card because camera sensors use neutral grey as a standing point to base all colors on.its called white balance however it’s not based off of the color white. You can use white if it’s the right color white. So a gray card even if it was originally used for exposure is now also used to insure there is gray in the right tone in a frame. Now when we do a custom it uses that photo to do so. However the camera always looks for neutral gray to base its balance.
why do you guys keep using the word neutral, White balance is for color correction, nothing to do with neutral or grading, more on color corrections, getting real colors
I think light meters are indispensable. I love 'em. But - contrary to your information, gray cards are used for white balance as well as exposure. They provide a convenient reference for white balance, or color balance, allowing the camera to compensate for the illuminant color in a scene. Of course the color checker folks will tell you you can't use a grey card for white balance. How else would they be able to charge so much for their color checkers?
Dunzel Kirk 18% Grey cards are used for adjusting white balance in post and over time folks have been using them in the field. That was not the intended purpose when they were introduced. They were introduced as targets for checking exposure on contact sheets in the darkroom. They are still good tools for exposure management with digital both in post and in the feild. What is referred to as a white card will work best as a custom white balancing tool in the field. Grey is also usable but requires more light to get the camera to accept it. The light grey of a "white" card is a better choice as it does not require as much ambient light. Color checkers do much more than white balance. White balance and color balance are NOT the same thing. They enable custom profiling throughout the usable color spectrum provided by your camera and light source. True color representation is a must for commercial and fashion work to give a true representation of the product. If you don't believe me ask Nike. You will find when you watch the video that this is not contrary to what is said.
Oh dear does that mean by SpyderCube is useless??? Its selling point is that it uses the 18% grey for white balance and the hole for setting absolute black . . . if I want to use it for exposure the surface area simply isn't large enough for my camera's spot meter to aim at!
Good question. Thanks for asking ! A larger surface is always easier when setting a custom white balance for your shoot. I have even used slightly tinted papers to set my color balance for a creative effect. The smaller card is actually part of an x-rite color passport. However they are available separately and there are Grey / White cards kits that are around the size of a credit card and live on a keychain. The smaller cards are more likely to be useful in post.
I have some cheap credit card sized cards and the large grey one with a target on it. Just wanted to make sure I'm using them right (which is how I found this video). I'm having fun testing them but don't want to fall into bad practices. Great video and thanks for the quick reply! I'll keep practicing.
Great T-Shirt! Sir Paul McCartney was recently on “The Late Show with Stephen Colbert”, where he was promoting his new book “Hey GranDude” and has a T-Shirt to match. :)
The linear scale of black to white is, by nature, completely "desaturated" and absolutely void of any color. Theoretically, and especially with today's equipment, one should be able to use either pure white or 99% black to correctly adjust the color temperature. Assuming this is true, could you explain why "white" cards are to be used with preference over "grey" cards when setting color temperature? I have yet to hear an explanation for this in videos like these.
Clay I don't think it matters as long as you expose such that the big peak in the histogram isn't too close to one of the edges. The important thing is the neutrality of the reflective surface. For some reason, I feel that it's easier to obtain that neutrality with an 18% card than one that's designed to reflect as much light as possible, but I have no proof of that
Really like the information you provided... There is lot of mis information there about Photography and filmmaking. You start bursting such baseless information. And please make videos over Interior Photography of hotels and home stays where lighting is very tricky. we find tungsten n incandescent n many other kind of colored lights in hotels now... So what should we do in such situations. please make video over it. 🙂
Abhishek Tyagi thank you for the comment. I am primarily a people photographer but mixed light comes up in many genres of photography. I will look for an opportunity to address that.
Unsung Photographer okay Sir... I would wait for the video... I just started my career as travel photographer for an online portal n mobile app. clicking hotels n house stays for them. your tips were really eye opening
this is an advance setting in the camera, it is not a preset, read you camera manual how to do custom white balance, or get someone to help you, beware, custom white balance will stay on the camera and has to be changed again for different lighting conditions, learn how to get out of it too. learn you camera,
you dont, custom white balance in camera is set only with a white card, you only use that color chart in post, you can shoot without a custom balance but have a shot with that color chart for a reference shot when you edit in post, there are color pickers to choose, white gray or black
This is a silly and misleading theory and title, because greycards are perfect tools to set white balance. Some of them even named similarly : michaeltapesdesign.com/whibal.html In the reality there is no perfectly white card, neither perfectly black. Because its impossible to manufacture such a things. And you can set white balance with not only a white card but a perfectly grey card also. It doesn't matter how dark- or light-grey it is, but it must be perfectly colorless without any saturation. Maybe you don't understand the meaning of white balance. It means actually a color balance, not only the white color's balance. When the "white looks white" , this is where the name comes from. You're mistaken probably because of the floppy term.
You have missed the point. White cards are indeed made for setting white balance. The are also lens mounted filters that assist with white balance settings. My primary point here is that the true gray card is a tool, by Kodak back in the day, used for setting exposure. It has morphed over the years and is indeed often used as a neutral target but that is not it's intended purpose. Believe me, I quite understand white balance and the principles behind the term. White balance is not the same as color balance. You can have a good white balance and still have a faulty color profile.
Unsung Photographer Setting WB means calibrating the neutral point of your camera, to a known neutral color. I said "neutral" not "white". Its done by shifting all the color spectre. and not calibrating all colors to each other, no one said that. If a known neutral color looks neutral in your camera, then WB is set, that's all. It should be named Grey Balance or Neutral Point that would be much more precise, but so many terms have sloopy names today. And I'm talking about digital photography, it doesn't matter what was the first Kodak grey card's purpose 100 yrs ago. Probably you know its history better than me. But today, they are good and used to set WB also on a digital camera, for reason and not by stupid mistake. The camera's User's Manual explains the method in details. You think they donno how their camera works ? They don't understand Photography at Nikon ? This is why I said you were misleading.
This is not in anyway misleading. It is a discussion of tools and how they are used. Wether you agree with the context or find value in the application is a different story. Your time scale is a bit off and the actual practice of photography hasn't changed to very much since 1839. I think you might find a bit of respect for the history and development of our current toolsets to be helpful. Digital photography is not the separate beast you might think it is. I hope you find the content here at least stimulating even if you disagree with the conclusions.
I think digital photography changed everything, in the technical background, its revolutional indeed, although changed almost nothing in the art photography. There are 50..100 yrs old jaw-dropping amazing pictures, they dind't need DSLRs and Photoshop. A DSLR don't make good pictures but the photographer makes good pictures. I respect history, and I respect old photo bears like you, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I just know that I can set WB with my grey card.
Yes but it is a bit awkward. I suggest you shoot RAW and take a photo of the reference card, then, correct in post. The collapsable device you are referring to is really designed as an exposure aid.
I use the Expodisc sometimes with good results and I have a good understanding of the Keivin scale and can guess at the color temp.I sometimes use a meter that can give a good Kelvin reading. My methods are a bit unorthodox.
I would respectfully disagree and suggest you use raw in all your workflows. However, just to be fair, I have seen a lot of sport guys go the jpeg route mostly for quick turn around for web and news outlets where instant delivery is required. Raw is especially helpful in low light situations.
There is a lot of incoherent babbling in this video. I don´t think ha even managed to mention why grey cards for exposure might not work for white balancing. Because they might not be really neutral grey. In ColorChecker Passport @ 3:15 it´s a white balance target and not a grey card. And by the way I prefer flimsy plastic lens hoods that flexes and dampens the blows instead of solid metal lens hoods that transfer impact forces straight into the lens.
40 years of experience babbling here. Grey cards for exposure are a neutral grey. It's just an optional use. Perhaps, if you tried some of the things suggested here you might find more value. The metal vs plastic lens hood comment is just nonsense. The metal hoods bend to absorb impact and are much more durable.
7:17 a dead spike? i dont quite get that since theres no highlight or shadow clipping? from my understanding the vertical spike cant "die" since it stretches to infinity?
I know that.. but it's not a "dead" spike since no information is lost.. the spike just meaning the image is fully grey og a big part is. I might just misunderstand your saying but. just to be clear to information is lost?
The term "dead" is being lost here. Instead, use the word "exactly". Example. The spike is exactly in the middle. The phrase " dead center" translates as " exactly center". It does not refer to any actual "dead" area of data. I hope that helps. Not all commonly used phrases translate logically.
Your are missing/ignoring the other half of the Color Checker and it has the calibrated white patches you were talking about. Check it out! The white patches will set white balance exactly as you described it, before closing the tool. I use mine all the time and you are totally missing this in your video. A little more research on your tools will help you understand the best tool on the market when it comes to color and color balance. The Color Checker Passport is the only tool you need.
Tim H the passport is a great tool. I personally find the small squares inconvenient for working white balance in the field. I prefer to use it for color profiling info studio.
You have to find a white substance that does not rebound UV radiation. Such is the foam that is used for packaging. Cheap and Perfect! Fabrics and many types of paper are not good because they are blue due to optical bleach. The DSC lab control white chip is also blue slightly. There is no perfect way. No need for perfection. Sorry for bad English!
Why do you use a metal hood? Why do you use a cap, when you have a hood? It took toooooooooooooooooo long to take off the cap, when you have a hood on. I would only use a black plastic hood, as metal will damage you lens through viberation....plastic absorbs. Don t take a lens,with a lens cap, to a zoo. Caps fall off, the animal swallows it.............then chokes to death....................................think about it.
Paul Green I have managed to get by with my hood and lens cap without harming any animals. Thank you for the thoughtful, kind and helpful advice. Typing this reply took way tooooooooooo long.
I was at the zoo and tried taking a selfie with an orangutang and as I took the lens cap off I accidentally swallowed it and it stuck in my throat and now I can’t talk so can only type instead. It’s so annoying that I can no longer talk to the animals. The selfie turned out great btw.
Your loss mate some great information there, and Child and dog in background, is great its real, and gives a sense of personality.kind of glad child was not sent in children should be allowed to play :)
its just a kids, i don't mind it, i paid my attention to the great info u gave, i really thank you, as i'm new to this, and just received 3 cards and waiting for the gray sheet to come , i tried the gray card indoor with tube light, but gave me a bit more yellowish look, the question is, how to get accurate color when i use gray card as my reference for white balancing. thanks again ,,, Cheers
And? Are you listing a monologue of your activity's so we can keep up with your exciting life? Ignore this idiot; this video has great info. Great video I learned a lot. Thank you!
It truly amazes me how many folks respond to the title here instead of the content.
Unsung Photographer
I make it a point to. Have this "drill" I do every time I set up, exposure of grey, balance on white, zoom in focus, frame out,..
I am seeing mistakes in past snaps.,..the histogram info has helped a great deal..thanks so much sir.
you are the best sir i subscribed
JustEdit color balance and white balance are two entirely different things. Although grey cards are frequently used for white balance that was not their original purpose.
I think both are correct in one sense. Obviously the grey card gives us the correct exposure. But i guess this can also be used as white balance card. Though the name is white balance but the camera manufacturer color science is set in such a way that it calibrate every color in the photo considering the neutral grey card. But 3 color confused me a bit. In photoshop we can set our shadows midtones and height lights. May be grey for mid, white for highlight and black for shafows.
Many Thanks. I've learnt something new. I will have to wait for at least 5 months to enjoy the warm and sunny weather like yours. Right now in London, I just need to point the camera into the sky during the day and I will get both the right exposure and white balance; it is just a massive grey card!
New sub. The calibrated color grid is intended as a post production reference.
1. WHITE CARD: Set your white balance, then...
2. GRAY CARD: Set your exposure, then...
3. COLOR GRID: Take a frame of the grid to be used as a baseline reference for matching in PP
Speaking as one of those video folks (for example, I was taught the trick of using my jeans to get a warm look) I would say I highly prefer to use grey cards instead of white. I reason thusly:
1. White, grey and black are basically the same colorwise. The only difference should be in the lightness of the tone.
2. In video we have more often than not very little wiggleroom when it comes to highlight exposures. Most of us are still stuck with 8bpc h264 chroma subsampled video. It's basically moving jpegs as opposed to RAW. This means that if the white card gets over exposed it becomes a HORRIBLE sample for white balancing. Because if one of the color channels get clipped and you try to sample there it will tilt the whole set of colors to make what it thinks is white to become evenly white. Clip the red channel and you get blue green tint, and so on. Middle grey however rarely gets into clipping range since they are made to be in the range of human skin and more often than not we don't want to over expose those tones anyway.
3. White balance and color balance really are two different things anyway with different goals. White balance is often enough to get a pretty accurate image on the go. Which is why it's centered around a single sample. It is designed for ENG news crews and documentary film workers. Speed is of the essence. And pointing the camera at neutral grey and tapping the button was... well... good enough.
In a studio setting. Especially one with several cameras that may not even be of the same manufacturer, you may need to cut between them and don't want the tones of red for example to shift around even though the whites are accurate for each camera. So here you have a person specialized at just that. With a color target you can build up, essentially a color lookup table (a LUT) that accurately maps each input color to a standardised output color. This way they all look the same.
And 4. In order to get a decent sample of a white card you still need to under expose it anyways to avoid the clipping issues. So using a grey card really takes out an unnecessary step in that chain.
But it is also true that lots of people know not how to white balance using these at all. Just like with using them for exposure they absolutely have to be in the same light as the subject being filmed or photographed. That includes not using temporarily illuminating only the card.
hey done mix tone or grading with the function of white balance, white balance has nothing to do with grading tones, it is only used to correct true colors, exposure is for grading light from dark, WB has nothing to do with grading high lights mid tone etc. hahaha what are you taking about
James Balagtas er.... what are YOU talking about?!....
You can just set your camera to screen in B&W and pick the whitest/grayest object in your frame as a color reference. That's more than enough most of the time. Unless you really need to reproduce color very accurately such as in fashion, product and some sessions of architecture photography.
I remember my Kodak grey card in its Kodak yellow sleeve. I gave it away when I found an art student who could use my 5x7 field camera.
As a Grandpa photographer, I enjoyed your Video, enjoyed the children's voices and the dog panting. Thanks for sharing your WB tips. For years I used a White Coffee filter held over my lens with a rubber band to set my Custom WB. Pointed at the light source, it worked well.
Interesting video and thank you for sharing you knowledge and experience. Currently I use a Color Checker Passport for almost all my photography especially when shooting under unusual lighting conditions and it works very well and is well worth the discount price paid during a holiday sale.
I still have my full size Kodak grey card purchased in 1970, but it's likely faded even though it's been kept in the original folder. And yes, the grey card was meant as an exposure aid back in the day and is still usable for that purpose when shooting either very dark or very light objects such as cars and some flowers. The incident light meter is also good for proper exposure on light or dark objects and I tend to use that nowadays as opposed to the grey card.
Color checker passport is a useful tool. Thanks for the comment.
Old grey cards may have been primarily for exposure reference, but modern ones sold as such should be color balanced as fully as a white card; either can be off by subtle but measurable, and distinguishable, degrees; either can be shot with different exposures to appear white, gray, or black, but none should have a noteworthy color tint. Also, once one has a proper card, it is imperative to set the balance with the card ideally perpendicular to the camera, in the same ambient light orientation as the subject. That means not flat on a table, under an umbrella, with the photographer hovering over it, unless that is where the subject is going to be shot.
z1522 please watch the video. Responding to the title doesn’t cover the information given.
Thank you for the wonderful information. I picked up a kit which had white, grey and black cards in it, time to experiment.
Absolutely !! Shoot and shoot some more. If you have any questions or discoveries please share.
Loved the dog pant and t-shirt! Thanks for clarifying the use of grey cards for exposure. I'm just beginning and it's confusing seeing more videos than not on TH-cam saying it's for white balance.
It can be used for white balance. What I am pointing out is the tools history leads us to another use as well. It can be used to fine tune exposure by shooting the card in the light you use for your subject the adjusting the histogram spike to the center. A "white " ( which is actually a light grey ) card is better for white balance because it does not require as much light.
Check the background of the you tubers you watch. Look for a portfolio and professional experience. It will be easier to weight the info you receive. This isn't the greatest production but I am a pro who's been shooting for 40 years. My information is correct.
Give it a try and let me know how it works for you.
Actually, I get the same exact results using either a white card commercially made for white balance or the GREY card. When checking the RGBW histogrtam, I see equal values of Red, blue, Green and white. Therefore, the white is balanced. Period.
Sure, if the gray card is spectrally neutral there's no difference. You can do either (or both- correct with color curves not the eyedropper and neutralize multiple points instead of just white).
With all due respect, sir, I believe you have been misinformed. Grey cards and any type of neutral standard grey, white or black card REALLY ARE for white balance. Whether or not they were originally used for exposure metering is indeed interesting, but ultimately irrelevant. In fact, in the histograms that you show, you can see that the peak is separated into different colour channels and that these are offset by a certain amount (in other words they do not perfectly overlap). This relative offset of your colours from each other is what we refer to when we say "white balance" (though strictly speaking I believe this would depend on the colour space within which we are operating).
In fact the other type of card you are showing is not made, strictly speaking, for white balance (though it does have some neutral standards on it from which you can calibrate your white balance... and these are equivalent to the grey cards you speak of). The colour palette and associated software are for calibrating "colour profiles". A colour profile is a mathematical model that transforms your sensor's measured colours to an absolute ICC standard. Colour profiles can be calibrated somewhat independently from white balance (though that is not always strictly true).
Guillaume Pelletier if you watch the video you will see that in essence I agree. However this video discusses the uses for setting exposure and the reason Kodak developed the grey card for film. Thanks for the long comment.
Please watch the video.
so many genius people, why did they call it white balance if you weren't supposed to use white, tell the camera manufacturers to name it grey balance, IQ white balance for white, have you read you camera manual on custom white balance? do they say use a gray card?
OLD gray cards like the Kodak 18% were strictly for exposure, and their grays were not neutral. A real neutral gray card made for white balance is very neutral. The problem with using white cards is overexposure. A white card is easily overexposed in bright lighting conditions, and will throw your color balance off.
They certainly were neutral. You can verify that by trying one.
if you are talking about grading or tones grade, white balance has nothing to do with that, white balance is only concern with color corrections, getting the colors right not tone graded, the proper step is to get the right expose before color correcting with custom white balance
In about 1994 I put 12 KODAK "gray Cards" brand new side by side butted against each other in a 3 x 4 panel to evaluate the neutrality of the cards. They were NOT the same. They had casts from magenta to yellow to green. Kodak said they were designed for exposure NOT for color balance or gray (white) balance.
I NEED that tee shirt. Interesting argument, I use both the grey card and Spyder colour checker, and I have multiple profiles in Lightroom, however for landscapes I just use the colour card and nothing for wildlife. The problem is the digital sensor doesn't "understand" white. It works on the premiss that the world is 18% grey and all other colours and shades are a variation of this grey. So it needs to be told what the perfect grey is and thus can give you white and all the other colours. Admittedly the warmth of ambient light of the day will affect this grey, but nowhere near as much as it would any lighter shades of grey that we might call white. That is where the colour checker comes in. Remember how when developing monochrome film we would use lush grass as middle grey? At no point did we look for white unless we were using infrared filters. A very interesting video that has opened up debate, and for that I've subscribed. I do hope the dog found somewhere to cool off.
tks for clarify different concepts and products that fresh photographer will overlook
Gidday William,that was very informative and i had no idea that a grey card was originally intended for exposure.I would like to see more videos from you, although i would not blame you in the slightest if you decided not to bother.You have comments from people not getting the point you were making or getting their knickers in a knot because you have a dog that pants and a young grandchild that was enjoying himself in the backyard.It's called life,maybe some people should go out and get one.I have dogs and remember the laughter of my kids that were once toddlers.I thought the background sounds made your presentation more intimate and i enjoyed every part of it..Thanks mate and cheers from Australia.
these are very valid points, Shooting will always vary in situation and light so this is informative to see differance
I love my X-Rite Passport. It’s so small and expensive so I was reluctant to get it but it’s worth it. And it’s well made. And has several “pages” with different tools. Love it. Also, I was occasionally using grey cards to white balance. I heard somewhere at some point in my past that it was better because “neutral grey” or something. LOL, I don’t know. I think the focus mark on the grey side made me think that was the side to white balance on because I not only had to fill my frame with the color I was white balancing on, but the frame had to be in focus for best results. So I’d zoom in, focus and set white balance.
Perhaps you can answer me this... DO you have to be in focus on the surface you’re white balancing on? Or would being out of focus actually HELP because you’re averaging/smoothing out any variations in the surface (any creases/shadows in the fabric, maybe there’s two different color ambient light sources... so you’re averaging that all out?
The reason we use grey in photography is to avoid the risk of inadvertently clipping a channel when measuring off a white surface. This is particularly important if you make a WB preset on a Nikon as the camera actually increases the exposure by one stop during the process. Carry on using grey, you'll come to no harm, but don't use the old Kodak grey cards as they contain a lot of green. When using a color checker you balance off one of the grey squares, not the white one!
Very informative, thanks ....I had to have a laugh when the dog started panting right into the mic at the end ...never work with kids or animals eh? :)
Now you made me think! what you said seems to make sense to me. If we are talking about shutter speed and aperture we are talking about exposure I guess. Thanks.
I use a 25% reflectance digital grey-card for making custom white balances which are extremely accurate. I set my sensor to base ISO, then set my vanilla exposure for calculating the white balance to the middle of the histogram. I tilt the card to 45 degrees to the sun, then make the white balance. The grey-card is free from illuminant metamerism, and consider it a vital piece of kit. Traditional Kodak grey-cards are of 18% reflectance (Ansel Adams got it wrong) and are meant for setting the exposure - not - for making white balances. I also have a cube with white and grey surfaces, a black hole, and with a steel ball bearing attached. With this I can set black and white points, mid exposure, white balance, and set the clipping point for specular highlights.
Very nice
Totally right! Grey card is exposure and white card is white balance.
Grey card is used for custom white balance .... google it for the technical details
Watch the video. Grey cards were developed to help with exposure. Google it.
Good video.I actually got the colour rite passport the other long after doing a little sketch for our channel where me and my friend were in the same sketch but both filmed separately in order to composite them.
I got so frustrated that my shots and his shots had different hue despite the exposure being close to similar based of 75IRE zebra. But being a bit closer to a yellow gel lamp does a lot to colour.And I love the colour passport.
You forgot to mention that The white, grey and black are actually there to being that black point in your paot processing software to just above clipping black and white just below clipping white. To use the whole dynamic range. That is also part of the colour passport video and made my life so much easier.Because what you otherwise use in your shot as true black or true white gets very arbitrary.This at least gives you calibrated values like you said -- at least all images are consistent.
Thanks for the video,I gained knowledge. I was waiting to see how long you could hold off from taking a puff of your box...you did good.
I still have all my old meters. Love em. & by golly a fellow guitarist! Extra points.
Get your exposure right or better and you'll have improved your white balance nearly every time. I've watched a few old school videos like this. What you forget is that in the old days of film, post processing basically didn't exist as an option. Nowadays processing in post can be done by everybody. Actually post processing is considered part of the creative process. So, no need to worry so much about the technicalities of a bygone age. Using grey cards is fine.
Optimology the more you take care of in camera, the less post is required. If you have the luxury of time in your workflow them a lot can be done in post. If, however, your turn around time is limited, then "getting it right in camera" is the way to go. This isn't "old school" it is a different and faster work flow. Film didn't require white balance at all. You bought daylight or tungsten and controlled you light accordingly. You must get find that some tried and true methods help post to be more of a creative stage than a fix it phase.
Optimology: I absolute agree with the video. I guess you can be called artist when you fix your work with the computer, but as long as I know, movies are shot in film and the cinematographers are those guys that rarely look at the screens; they understand light, photography and camera and are aware that the best information possible that can be put in a the film (or sensor), the best. The question is, how long do people spend taking photos vs how long do they spend in the computer trying to fix what could have done on the scene? If you have this mentality, you'll become a better photographer and spend more time shooting.
always use a light meter.....I don't like to shoot 15 frames of the same image...I bracket half a stop each way and I use my light meter to measure high lights and the darkest spots and see if my camera will cover the dynamic range....if it doesn't I will wait an hour or so......I couldn't live without a meter despite how good in camera meters have become but when you want the best tonal range possible they are necessary and plus you do not need to fill cards with numerous bracketed shots
For those of us shooting mirrorless (or cameras with liveview) you can also use zebras to find what is clipping.
@@rsmith02 zebras? What's that? Im new to photography
i use a very white type writing paper for custom white balance in camera, in post you can use the grey card, if you don't intend to custom white balance in camera, either way in post it will still be corrected if your gray card was in the picture, i learn something new what the grey card tool is truly for, great video, i still use white for in camera color balance and now implemeting the grey for right exposure when manual, many thanks grandpa
James Balagtas I’m not your grandpa. Though I do appreciate that you got something positive from the video. Thanks for taking the time to comment.
Thank you. May I ask you for a favor? Please list the gear you demonstrate. It's sometimes difficult to grab it. Thanks.
Specific brands are unimportant. Use your favorite. The principles are the same.
Thanks.
For white balance you want a target that is actually spectrally neutral. Here's an independent test of a few. The X-Rite Photo Passport is a good choice in my experience.
www.leeminglutpro.com/whitebalance.html
Wait! People use a grey card for white balance? As Mr Spock would say: “That’s illogical!” LOL
“Exposure” .. of course! In the context of the subject matter that you are shooting, it’s a good “start” for finding “perfect exposure”. Getting to the final exposure might take more work.
Thanks!
Thanks for helping to understand the subtle differences.
By far the best explanation of this function, big thanks!
By chance can you make a video on speed lights? ..I don't understand why my speed light has a apperchure, thanks so much. You are a great detailed teacher.
Ooh forgot I shoot with a nikon sb-25 with a pair of pocket wizards X and d3300,...once again thanks
Thank you very much. I’m glad you took the time to watch. Some older speed lights had aperture markings in order to assist the auto functions. Most speedlights have fractions listed as a fraction of full power. 1/8 , 1/4 of full power. Speed lights are a great subject. I will work something up.
Right on and solid, i am hell bent on mastering manual "everything" my 50mm is from the 80's manual.
I was able to fully understand the appeture/zoom/shutter /iso on the camera but not why on my flash gun..lol
Thanks so much for your wisdom on the matter of available lighting ,..
.keep clicking. ..lol
The 'aperture' value on your speedlight is to help you know how far the light beam will spread. Matching the value of the aperture on the speedlight & lens will keep the flash (if it's located at the same position as the lens) from 'lighting beyond what the lens will see' (aka a flash at 24mm v.s. the lens at 50mm) which would be a waste of power/light or from lighting 'more in the middle and less at the edges' of what your lens can see (aka a flash at 80mm v.s. the lens at 35mm) and causing a hotspot of brightness. Hope that makes sense.
I have also learned that grey is for exposure. BUT, after doing close to 100 tests and comparisons with the grey cards and white cards I have, I’ve found that white balancing with ONE of my grey cards gets the white balance to a color which is more tru to life compared to any of the white cards I have.
Have you tried black balancing your camera?
My current cameras do not support black balance. That is much more common in video land. No one says that you shouldn't use a grey card for white balance. Simply that that was not the original intent. I do use the x-rite color system when seeking to color correct vs basic white balance.
Regarding the Colorchecker Passport, as it isn't entirely clear in the video; the white balance target you showed, the larger light grey patch, IS a white balance reference. The best way to use it is to, shooting in raw, shoot it in the lighting scenario you're in (mixed lighting aside) and then sample it in post production and then sync it across all images from that particular lighting scenario.
Daniel Medley that method is true with any grey source for whit balance. I would suggest you use the full color set with that tool for the best results.
@@unsungphotographer3412 That's for creating a camera profile. They are two separate things. Even after creating the profile you still use one of the WB patches. The idea is to establish a consistent baseline.
Daniel Medley I agree with your intent. I still tech mend the full color management profile generating capability of the tool.
@@danielmedley3486 I watched this entire video and have watched several on the Passport. I would agree with Daniel Medley that white balance and color balance are two different animals. The Passport color checker aka Macbeth Color Chart is used to create a camera profile, not to white balance. As a retired professional portrait photographer, I and other professionals found it virtually impossible to match what we saw on our monitors with he finished print because of all the intricate factors in the entire color process including the printers and associated equipment at the professional color lab. We hope to get the color match and final product at least “in the ballpark as close as we could”. The other alternative which is what most pros relied on was leave color AND the printing process to the discretion of the lab technicians who do this day in and day out every single day and have developed a keen eye. So, color is a combination of a myriad of factors along the way and the most important thing of all is to develop a consistent workflow that will deliver you the end product that you are trying to achieve.
Hey, Guitarist Grandpa! I see you're also a Nikon camera dude like myself, and I appreciate your easy to understand video on white balance...THANKS!
I had no problem with the noise... the video has a good content. Thx!
A vaping, photo-taking, riff-bending, grandpa is someone you can TRUST!
Thanks for your video ,if you set the exposure using grey card in outdoor,how do u adjust the exposure for shallow depth of field ,most of the time it will give exposure for deep depth of field
Good question! Depth of field can be controlled by shifting your f stop and compensating with shutter speed or iso on a digital camera. If you open aperture one stop the you must increase your shutter or undo by one stop to compensate. Some cameras use a system called exposure values which makes this adjustment easier.
@@unsungphotographer3412 cool ,if you want to use flash with ambient light how to use grey card to exposure
I use the gray card to calibrate my incident meter to my lens as each lens will give you a slightly different result as far as exposure is concerned. And I'd rather carry an incident meter than a gray card.
light meters are completely necessary if you're a cinematographer. don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
I got rid of my Seconic as I just balance off the white card now a days. But for real intricate lighting set ups yeah a meter can help calculate and adjust lights.
randall paul Newer cameras have waveform displays which can help with exposure and colour.
Right on point, white is for white balance and grey is for exposure!
Good information, but I'm still a bit fuzzy on what the black (or dark grey) card does. I'm clear on the white and grey card, but.... is it also for accurate exposure of your camera's blacks? Thanks for an interesting video.
I agree that the typical grey card such as the Kodak Grey Card is for exposure. That’s because Kodak didn’t really care if the grey was pure. There are pure grey cards made for white balance such as the WhiBal. It works.
James Simon please watch the video.
Great video thanks will you be doing one on the X-Rite ColorChecker Passport that you use showing how to set it up,?
Great suggestion. I will put that in the queue.
Well... all greys are "not so bright whites" or "whites in shadow". So I think there is one more difference between "white point" and "white balance".
Oh and BTW even the brightest patch on the Color Checker is not white, technically. It is 243/243/242 in 8bit sRGB profile, where 255 255 255 is D65 illuminant ( = de facto white point).
When doing white balance, you must in fact check greys.
The other problem here is it assumes people know what to do with in LR. Would be useful if you showed that.
Im new to this and thank u for sharing ur knowledge with us. So my question is how often and when should one us the gray card to correct exposure? Is it possibe to use it a lot in situations such a photo shoot, street photography? Etc. Even balancing the white balance. Same question apply. Thank u once again
Isaypreach there are many variables in that question. The broad answer would be to have it as an option when you want an incident reading. Like you would use a light meter when holding it next to your subject.
You cut right through the nonsense. Excellent explanation...thank you sir!
Richard Rivera you are most welcome
"Some cardboard glued to a piece of plastic" brilliant !!!
Don't know what your referencing???
Doesn't matter.
Unsung 1:45 would be what he was referencing. My favorite part as well.
To refer to the ColorChecker Passport as simply "cardboard glued to a piece of plastic" is a great disservice to novices who came here to learn. That little package of calibrated targets, which he was holding upside down, isn't the main part of that product. He didn't mention the software that goes with it, which is for creating DNG files in post. He certainly didn't explain the targets it contains well at all. People came to this video to learn something, attracted by a title he repeatedly admitted in his responses above as misleading "don't judge it by the title, watch the video." That the title is misleading is one problem. The rambling content is another. He blows off those who corrected his misstatements by telling them to "watch the video," though they obviously had, and were correcting him; and by saying he has "40 years of experience." That's silly. It's the same as saying, "How dare you question me -- I've misunderstood this stuff for 40 years!" -- And 40? Why, that's actually a little longer than digital photography's even been available, and more than twice as long as the general shift from film to digital. Yet his video is full of disjointed references to electronic processes and the targets to base them on. So... is it 40 years of knowing what an 18% gray card is? Fine, but just say that and that only. Correct us, that the white-balance targets we're using aren't 18% gray, though so many people "call" them 18% gray. (I don't like that, either, but... oh well). But why not just stick with that, then? ..... No doubt his experience is laudable (though he isn't specific about what that experience is). Maybe he's done a lot of great photography in that time. But a lot of people have done a great job of something without being able to explain it to someone else. Plenty of people drive cars very well, who can't rebuild an engine -- some can't even change a tire. Why in the world would anyone think *they* should be the one's making TH-cam videos how to rebuild cars or change tires? What was the point of this video? It wasn't to help aspiring photographers. ---- But, no permanent damage done. As with anything, all of us, each and everyone, must take responsibility for our own education. Anyone who really wants to learn will not stop here with a "Cool Grampa's" post from his backyard with pup and grandchild. There are more authoritative, more trustworthy sources on the Web to cross-reference any information either completely misrepresented or incoherently explained in this video.
it is cardboard hahaha, the color grading tool hahhaa
Very informative video. I am trying understand how grey card works. Well I am just starting adventure with photography with my pentax k70. I need to buy x rite colorchecker passport or at least grey card. What you guys propose? That passport (X-Rite MSCCP ColorChecker Passport with Free Affinity Photo) cost about 80 pounds on amazao uk. Any suggestions for a photo starter? Thanks.
I would only make that big an investment if you have a paid assignment that requires color accuracy. For a beginner a simple grey card to set exposure and white balance is just fine. Affinity is a very interesting Photoshop Challenger. I would give that a try to see if it suits you.
For cheap, the QP cards are small but good.
For gray card you can also likely meter off your palm (start from palm + 1 stop depending on skin tone).
Finally, someone who knows what a grey card is for. And of course, it comes from another guy who has grey hair and started with film like me. I also love your shirt. Rock on grandpa.
you are so wrong grey card is fine for WB because WB is all about getting the correct colour temperature of the light ie balancing out any colour cast So grey is a balanced colour with NO colour cast....
Chaz Madge you should watch the video and try some of the exercises you will find more value here than you think.
It might have been much better if you explained that to use the white card for making a custom WB in camera, the gray one is perfect for making a WB on a RAW in PP... It's no good giving out half of the details when teaching.
I would still suggest you watch the video. This is really more about alternative uses for whit and grey cards. I shoot all of my work in Raw. I don't set custom white balances in camera. I shoot my reference on a fixed white balance in raw and use those references in post.
read you camera manual man, grey card have nothing to do with with white balance, you are miss informed really, what is white on gray hahaha, it called white balance, not grey balance, IQ please
Thanks for this vlog - informative and no nonsense; I had no idea that a grey card was designed for exposure.
It really irks me when I see a pro photographer telling people to use a gray card for white balance. So glad someone finally tells it like it is.
even your camera manual will tell you to use white card, not many people read manuals, they rely more on youtube hahaha, i was searching for a video like this too
Pretty sure they use a grey card because camera sensors use neutral grey as a standing point to base all colors on.its called white balance however it’s not based off of the color white. You can use white if it’s the right color white. So a gray card even if it was originally used for exposure is now also used to insure there is gray in the right tone in a frame. Now when we do a custom it uses that photo to do so. However the camera always looks for neutral gray to base its balance.
sol s please just watch the video
why do you guys keep using the word neutral, White balance is for color correction, nothing to do with neutral or grading, more on color corrections, getting real colors
I think light meters are indispensable. I love 'em. But - contrary to your information, gray cards are used for white balance as well as exposure. They provide a convenient reference for white balance, or color balance, allowing the camera to compensate for the illuminant color in a scene. Of course the color checker folks will tell you you can't use a grey card for white balance. How else would they be able to charge so much for their color checkers?
Dunzel Kirk 18% Grey cards are used for adjusting white balance in post and over time folks have been using them in the field. That was not the intended purpose when they were introduced. They were introduced as targets for checking exposure on contact sheets in the darkroom. They are still good tools for exposure management with digital both in post and in the feild. What is referred to as a white card will work best as a custom white balancing tool in the field. Grey is also usable but requires more light to get the camera to accept it. The light grey of a "white" card is a better choice as it does not require as much ambient light. Color checkers do much more than white balance. White balance and color balance are NOT the same thing. They enable custom profiling throughout the usable color spectrum provided by your camera and light source. True color representation is a must for commercial and fashion work to give a true representation of the product. If you don't believe me ask Nike.
You will find when you watch the video that this is not contrary to what is said.
Loved the dog (a Lab?), panting and just sneaking into the footage...
Oh dear does that mean by SpyderCube is useless??? Its selling point is that it uses the 18% grey for white balance and the hole for setting absolute black . . . if I want to use it for exposure the surface area simply isn't large enough for my camera's spot meter to aim at!
There are a lot of products sold that are not as useful as advertised. The cube does what it does but I find it to be less useful than simpler tools.
Love the kids and dog! Amazing info! Thank you!
Your Welcome.
The little card is used in post production, correct? And taking the photo of the grey is used to set in camera? Or was that for post as well? Thanks!
Good question. Thanks for asking ! A larger surface is always easier when setting a custom white balance for your shoot. I have even used slightly tinted papers to set my color balance for a creative effect. The smaller card is actually part of an x-rite color passport. However they are available separately and there are Grey / White cards kits that are around the size of a credit card and live on a keychain. The smaller cards are more likely to be useful in post.
I have some cheap credit card sized cards and the large grey one with a target on it. Just wanted to make sure I'm using them right (which is how I found this video). I'm having fun testing them but don't want to fall into bad practices. Great video and thanks for the quick reply! I'll keep practicing.
Plus the other panel of the passport has tinted panels for portrait and landscapes to warm or cool the colors
Thank you. Very accurate information !!
Great T-Shirt!
Sir Paul McCartney was recently on “The Late Show with Stephen Colbert”, where he was promoting his new book “Hey GranDude” and has a T-Shirt to match. :)
The linear scale of black to white is, by nature, completely "desaturated" and absolutely void of any color. Theoretically, and especially with today's equipment, one should be able to use either pure white or 99% black to correctly adjust the color temperature. Assuming this is true, could you explain why "white" cards are to be used with preference over "grey" cards when setting color temperature? I have yet to hear an explanation for this in videos like these.
Clay I don't think it matters as long as you expose such that the big peak in the histogram isn't too close to one of the edges. The important thing is the neutrality of the reflective surface. For some reason, I feel that it's easier to obtain that neutrality with an 18% card than one that's designed to reflect as much light as possible, but I have no proof of that
Really like the information you provided... There is lot of mis information there about Photography and filmmaking. You start bursting such baseless information. And please make videos over Interior Photography of hotels and home stays where lighting is very tricky. we find tungsten n incandescent n many other kind of colored lights in hotels now... So what should we do in such situations. please make video over it. 🙂
Abhishek Tyagi thank you for the comment. I am primarily a people photographer but mixed light comes up in many genres of photography. I will look for an opportunity to address that.
Unsung Photographer okay Sir... I would wait for the video... I just started my career as travel photographer for an online portal n mobile app. clicking hotels n house stays for them. your tips were really eye opening
When you adjust the brightness of your rear screen, think of this gray card.
But what white balance setting for your camera do you use to take the photograph of the white card?
That is what has always bothered me !
Tony A
this is an advance setting in the camera, it is not a preset, read you camera manual how to do custom white balance, or get someone to help you, beware, custom white balance will stay on the camera and has to be changed again for different lighting conditions, learn how to get out of it too. learn you camera,
White balance in video requires a vector scope and master sync gen. SLRs are different in every way. Static not dynamic. You don't get it.
Crocellian I am not talking anywhere near broadcast. I get it very well.
I have a black lab. I love your dog.
Karen Rice Labs are great dogs.
Great deal of info! Thank you! I appreciate your efforts. BTW: Kids and the dog are just lovely - don't be bothered by those silly comments.
very nice video
Gray cards ARE for white balance -- in Camera Raw with the WB dropper.
Wrong
So when you use the muliple colour card and you use the White Balance picker in Lightroom which colour do you use to get the correct white balance?
If you are exposed properly either the white or gray areas will work in lightroom
right ! then how do you tell your camera to adjust the white balance with the color chart ?
you dont, custom white balance in camera is set only with a white card, you only use that color chart in post, you can shoot without a custom balance but have a shot with that color chart for a reference shot when you edit in post, there are color pickers to choose, white gray or black
Very informative, thanks .
This is a silly and misleading theory and title, because greycards are perfect tools to set white balance.
Some of them even named similarly :
michaeltapesdesign.com/whibal.html
In the reality there is no perfectly white card, neither perfectly black. Because its impossible to manufacture such a things. And you can set white balance with not only a white card but a perfectly grey card also. It doesn't matter how dark- or light-grey it is, but it must be perfectly colorless without any saturation. Maybe you don't understand the meaning of white balance. It means actually a color balance, not only the white color's balance. When the "white looks white" , this is where the name comes from. You're mistaken probably because of the floppy term.
You have missed the point. White cards are indeed made for setting white balance. The are also lens mounted filters that assist with white balance settings. My primary point here is that the true gray card is a tool, by Kodak back in the day, used for setting exposure. It has morphed over the years and is indeed often used as a neutral target but that is not it's intended purpose. Believe me, I quite understand white balance and the principles behind the term. White balance is not the same as color balance. You can have a good white balance and still have a faulty color profile.
An additional video from another source you might find enlightening.
th-cam.com/video/UZ8lPKmYGc4/w-d-xo.html
Unsung Photographer
Setting WB means calibrating the neutral point of your camera, to a known neutral color. I said "neutral" not "white".
Its done by shifting all the color spectre. and not calibrating all colors to each other, no one said that. If a known neutral color looks neutral in your camera, then WB is set, that's all. It should be named Grey Balance or Neutral Point that would be much more precise, but so many terms have sloopy names today.
And I'm talking about digital photography, it doesn't matter what was the first Kodak grey card's purpose 100 yrs ago. Probably you know its history better than me. But today, they are good and used to set WB also on a digital camera, for reason and not by stupid mistake. The camera's User's Manual explains the method in details. You think they donno how their camera works ? They don't understand Photography at Nikon ?
This is why I said you were misleading.
This is not in anyway misleading. It is a discussion of tools and how they are used. Wether you agree with the context or find value in the application is a different story. Your time scale is a bit off and the actual practice of photography hasn't changed to very much since 1839. I think you might find a bit of respect for the history and development of our current toolsets to be helpful. Digital photography is not the separate beast you might think it is. I hope you find the content here at least stimulating even if you disagree with the conclusions.
I think digital photography changed everything, in the technical background, its revolutional indeed, although changed almost nothing in the art photography. There are 50..100 yrs old jaw-dropping amazing pictures, they dind't need DSLRs and Photoshop. A DSLR don't make good pictures but the photographer makes good pictures.
I respect history, and I respect old photo bears like you, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I just know that I can set WB with my grey card.
Excellent info.. I never knew that.
Can use this collapsible color balance "card" for calibrating the white balance using the "pre" WB mode in camera?
Yes but it is a bit awkward. I suggest you shoot RAW and take a photo of the reference card, then, correct in post. The collapsable device you are referring to is really designed as an exposure aid.
Unsung Photographer I am a sports and lowlight dance photographer and shoot mostly jpegs. RAW is for scenics and commercial.
I use the Expodisc sometimes with good results and I have a good understanding of the Keivin scale and can guess at the color temp.I sometimes use a meter that can give a good Kelvin reading. My methods are a bit unorthodox.
I would respectfully disagree and suggest you use raw in all your workflows. However, just to be fair, I have seen a lot of sport guys go the jpeg route mostly for quick turn around for web and news outlets where instant delivery is required. Raw is especially helpful in low light situations.
I agree. RAW,has,many advantages but jpegs make my workflow much easier. I shoot jpegs knowing their limitatations
There is a lot of incoherent babbling in this video. I don´t think ha even managed to mention why grey cards for exposure might not work for white balancing. Because they might not be really neutral grey. In ColorChecker Passport @ 3:15 it´s a white balance target and not a grey card. And by the way I prefer flimsy plastic lens hoods that flexes and dampens the blows instead of solid metal lens hoods that transfer impact forces straight into the lens.
40 years of experience babbling here. Grey cards for exposure are a neutral grey. It's just an optional use. Perhaps, if you tried some of the things suggested here you might find more value. The metal vs plastic lens hood comment is just nonsense. The metal hoods bend to absorb impact and are much more durable.
Very good video and well informed.
7:17 a dead spike? i dont quite get that since theres no highlight or shadow clipping? from my understanding the vertical spike cant "die" since it stretches to infinity?
Take a photo of the grey card. The histogram will have a vertical spike "dead" center if you exposure is correct. Just try it and see for yourself.
I know that.. but it's not a "dead" spike since no information is lost.. the spike just meaning the image is fully grey og a big part is. I might just misunderstand your saying but. just to be clear to information is lost?
The term "dead" is being lost here. Instead, use the word "exactly". Example. The spike is exactly in the middle. The phrase " dead center" translates as " exactly center". It does not refer to any actual "dead" area of data. I hope that helps. Not all commonly used phrases translate logically.
LOVED THE DISTRACTIONS... Thanks for the valuable input. Michael /OAK77uk
Your are missing/ignoring the other half of the Color Checker and it has the calibrated white patches you were talking about. Check it out! The white patches will set white balance exactly as you described it, before closing the tool. I use mine all the time and you are totally missing this in your video. A little more research on your tools will help you understand the best tool on the market when it comes to color and color balance.
The Color Checker Passport is the only tool you need.
Tim H the passport is a great tool. I personally find the small squares inconvenient for working white balance in the field. I prefer to use it for color profiling info studio.
You have to find a white substance that does not rebound UV radiation. Such is the foam that is used for packaging. Cheap and Perfect! Fabrics and many types of paper are not good because they are blue due to optical bleach. The DSC lab control white chip is also blue slightly. There is no perfect way. No need for perfection.
Sorry for bad English!
Thank you for sharing.
Your welcome.
Great information.
Thank you Sir!
Geeze I HATE snibblers ! I am not so easily annoyed - good video
Thanks !
so many wrong video hehehe, i love this video
Thank you
Sir! very usefull information!
Thanks!
Your Welcome!
*You're
I appreciate the enlightenment!
what meter are you using?
Jonathan Kidd Sekonic L478
The product you’re using is designed for white balance it’s not a “gray card”.....
Matt Cavens watch the video
cute distractions !!!!! love it !!!!
nice one, so many videos in youtube that is wrong hehehe, this video should be viral hehehe
Why do you use a metal hood? Why do you use a cap, when you have a hood? It took toooooooooooooooooo long to take off the cap, when you have a hood on. I would only use a black plastic hood, as metal will damage you lens through viberation....plastic absorbs. Don t take a lens,with a lens cap, to a zoo. Caps fall off, the animal swallows it.............then chokes to death....................................think about it.
Paul Green I have managed to get by with my hood and lens cap without harming any animals. Thank you for the thoughtful, kind and helpful advice. Typing this reply took way tooooooooooo long.
I was at the zoo and tried taking a selfie with an orangutang and as I took the lens cap off I accidentally swallowed it and it stuck in my throat and now I can’t talk so can only type instead. It’s so annoying that I can no longer talk to the animals. The selfie turned out great btw.
No diffrence . grey ore white same resault , just try.
then what is the black sections for?
The black is for placing a third spike in your histogram to locate the lower end of your dynamic range.
Thank you sir for this video. Some really good information.
I finally had to stop watching due to the distractions of the kid and dog
Sorry. You missed some good info.
Great info I'll say! I learned quite a lot and subscribed! Thank you!
Your loss mate some great information there, and Child and dog in background, is great its real, and gives a sense of personality.kind of glad child was not sent in children should be allowed to play :)
its just a kids, i don't mind it, i paid my attention to the great info u gave, i really thank you, as i'm new to this, and just received 3 cards and waiting for the gray sheet to come , i tried the gray card indoor with tube light, but gave me a bit more yellowish look, the question is, how to get accurate color when i use gray card as my reference for white balancing. thanks again ,,, Cheers
And? Are you listing a monologue of your activity's so we can keep up with your exciting life? Ignore this idiot; this video has great info.
Great video I learned a lot. Thank you!