Analyzing The incredible Flight of SpaceX STARSHIP 3! W/ Scott Walter
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 มี.ค. 2024
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Source video from SpaceX: / 1768258691319689232 - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
I love all 5 pixels you included of the livestream
There was something wrong with pixel 3.
and the other 4. .i give up!@@tonyduncan9852
I spotted a sixth briefly so ewhere in there.
Fake pixels
That's done, I think. @@rcpmac
Watching via starlink in Braselton, GA. Starlink has been rock solid the past few months. This is icing on the cake 🎉
I've been to all 3 launches
Where do you live if not Texas what is your carrier that slows you to take off all the time needed to travel for all the uncertain launch dates.
I am envious.
I hope you make it to the next one.
I envy you!
I saw every Mercury launch, 4 Gemini, every Apollo including the test launches and 15 shuttles.
@@James-hd4ms I’m guessing you lived in Florida or were independently wealthy.
Thank you for this Analysis I really enjoy the back-and-forth from you two guys. This was incredible. There's so much teaching going on from two incredible teachers you make a great team clearly explaining complicated science of space.
It ended up being annoying. John can't let Scott talk longer than 2 seconds without trying to interrupt somehow.
I think the on-board video feed made the biggest difference for us causal observers to be able to visualise the journey in far greater detail.
Would be ideal if SpaceX provided a live global map as well, soon you can see the flight path in real time.
My only other request would be for the telemetry view thats on screen to show all axis of the vehicles orientation, not just one.
@@aerostorm_A 3d visualization would be pretty cool! Like a wireframe model of the starship.
Starship in orbit should bevery visiblefro the grou d, especially atdusk and dawn cozof the shiny stainless
Kinda starting to think that opening that PEZ door, combined with all that venting, might have caused Starship to roll uncontrollably...
Hopefully SpaceX now knows how stainless steel holds up during re-entry..
Scotty we need more control, use the hot gas thrusters. Captain we don't have hot gas thrusters!
I guess there will be some video from the inside camera.
I am always amazed at how much the Starship can withstand. In the first test flight, it spun uncontrollably through the atmosphere and didn't break up, and the same here, it can withstand very heavy loads for a very long time. I'm really looking forward to the 4th flight, and then I want to see two landings :) It will be great!
I'm assuming the next prototype will have better thruster control
Seems like they lost control over them both, so yeah they really need to take a look at that.
Wow what a genius comment they need to take a look at that@@karlkarlsson9126
After this re-entry, I will never worry about another missing heat shield tile again.
Yeah, S28 taking the reentry heating on the belly like a boss. I'm confident that when they actually point it in the right direction, it will survive reentry with ease
The engines didn't reignited
If you watch the ship’s speed as the plasma blanket begins to form, you will notice it isn’t slowing down… this plasma was from the most upper regions of the atmosphere, which is incredibly thin. By the time the atmosphere got thick enough to start really breaking speed, where the real test of heat shield is, that’s where it blew up.
@@JaviAirwraps469 meters
It was never going to survive at 26,000 km an hour at that altitude while rolling
Thanks for the video..
But why the 144p video replay?
Excellent, thanks. And FWIW, I enjoyed the Samba music track.
Great analysis- nice chat - happy St Patrick's Day from Kilkenny
did youtube mess up the quality of your vid during upload? or were you two actually reviewing the playback in 240p/360p quality
I think Scott was screensharing, and John was recording. So with 1 John's video on uplink, and Scott's video + the screenshare on downlink, John hit on bandwidth constraints and Zoom downprioritized the screenshare.
@@oheddInstead of playing a youtube copy, they should download it and play it in VLC screen share instead, which has better controls with keys etc... compared to the poor effort YT done vs even 1996 video players.
Dr. Know it all is always too nice to tell this particular guest to not talk over him so often. Lol.
I was thinking the opposite, actually. Stop interrupting the guest you have invited on. 🙂
They’re friends and very nice people anything goes!! 😂
@akira28shima32 I know they're friends and I like the guy too. But everybody has those friends that don't quite Let you finish talking before they start. It's hard to politely tell people that. Lol
@@erikmoore7402 I think they’re both on the spectrum, so social cues are optional! Lol
Nice review !!! Thanks to both of you :)
There was some mention of testing rotating Starship. Something they were thinking of doing on the trip to Mars to create some microgravity.
The fact that they couldn't stabilize Starship may indicate that the vector thrusters are too weak. Remember that thing about mass, velocity, etc?
42:00 that one is actually from the April 20, 2023 launch. The headline, from the same guy on cbs, this time was "SpaceX launches Super Heavy-Starship rocket on third test flight"
The media reception on ift-3 was much more positive (as it should be). Not perfect, but I watched a lot of different stuff and it was treated surprisingly decently.
Yes, i could not believe the acceleration, imagine what affect that must have on the launcgpad, amazing.
And they are in effect developing two rocket systems at the same time. So good on them.
Love the review, watching from StarBase!🚀
Question: Would it make sense to move the bow flaps back off the arc to get better dynamic response on re-entry?
Scott is spot on, we need to continue to push limits. I think the control issue is likely related to icing; however, I think given the hull material (stainless steel) that a simple percussive device could be used around or near each control vent to act as a de-icing boot and kick enough build-up off to allow for proper attitude control. It could be a simple actuator that uses electricity. Much like a smart phone's vibrate function. Vibrators are common and cheap... 😜
_Vibrators are common and cheap._ - just ask any one of the many free-flying protective tiles that just passed by you in various directions . . .
Failure is the seed of success!
The way the second stage is heating up and the heat is wrapping around to the sides, it looks like the field of tiles may need to be broaden for added heat protection.
Also, just before heating up , it looks like some dark pieces ( not just ice) possibly tiles were coming off. I am not sure, but I think they use only an adhesive to attach those tiles so as to not puncher the steel . There might be an additional attachment they could use to avoid tile detachment . The shuttle had some problems with the tiles too that they had to contend with every time it landed .
I worked in my dad’s business for ten years of the nearly fifty years it was in existence.
We were located in Southern California producing thousands of different custom parts for many different industries including the air/space industries.
Amazing stuff!! 🚀🌎
Okay, Falcon uses the hell out of control thrusters in combination with grid fins. Starship booster is much more massive and depends on grid fins. Also, Starship's "wings" can't possibly control the ship at that speed and altitude.
Ship is most likely doing a hard splashdown for failure data so they have solid information on breakup patterns and debris fields to aid in defining exclusion zones for starship landings. They already have landing burn data from the early suborbital testing so they don't need that other than to validate the transition control from hypersonic to subsonic and then landing.
Great video.
The grid-fin control PID needs a considerable augmentation of second-derivative gain.
You got that right.
This was an incredible video!!!!! You guys rock!!!
I am so thankful that no heat tiles came off the vehicle !
Only at the end when the vehicle was tumbling trough the upper atmosphere.
In the views just before stage separation it was pointed out that a few tiles on the side had fallen off.
10:15 The booster HAS header tanks. The LOX is at the bottom and the LCH4 is the transfer tube (which passes through the LOX one).
yep i was going to say this also, massive amount of fuel in the downcomer and at the bottom of the booster there's a large headertank as well.
Initially the spin/rotation may have been as a Starlink deployment maneuver mock-up…🤔🤷🏾♂️
SICK BREAKDOWN BOYS!
You need a base line to start from, Each IFT launch has a higher base line. That's progress.
26:28 just had a little blip of possible insight, could it be that they were doing full testing of roll pitch and jaw attitude control? we have a jaw first then a roll and maybe it got stuck halfway that? just blabbering but yeh awesome to have witnessed this live and thnx for the awesome analysis!
30:41 theres interesting wording going on here they had 2 landing sites, target A > test engine fire if fail >land at target A >> if succesfull land at target B but if they chose not to do it for fear of not landing at site A or B then either they didnt have attitude controll or it was already overshooting target A and maybe even risking overshooting B ? just speculating
I think the lack of a re-entry burn damaged the booster engines. I also believe the excessive venting caused the tumbling.
At 36:29 remember the camera is on the outer trailing edge of a front fin. There was plasma in that location, that would be in the camera's field of view, and hence in ours.
Starship thrust to mass (T/M) ratio at liftoff is 1.45. Space Shuttle T/M at liftoff was 1.5. Saturn V T/M at liftoff was 1.2. Starship is about three times more massive at liftoff than the Space Shuttle, but it accelerates as quickly as the Shuttle. High acceleration during the vertical climb out reduces the gravity loss and allows the pitch over to occur at a higher altitude.
At roughly 14:2.5 an object is very briefly visible at center screen. Could this be an engine bell assembly disconnecting from an engine ???. Mark from Australia.
Raw power 🎉
Great fun
Can there be made a material that by dipping the starship, it can mitigate heat tile losses or even be the shield itself. 🤔🤔
I do believe they were trying to show the current most recent spin in the acquisition frame. It was pretty correlated. They said the spin was why they didn't light the engine. Pity.
Just for your information, John and Scott - Spacex's videoes do not trigger a "copyright violation" in TH-cam. What you will see if you're editing their videos in TH-cam, it will be checked for "Copyright" but also state that owner allows it and it is NOT a copyright violation. It's the same with NASA videos. TH-cam is tagging it ONLY to make you aware that it's someone elses video content but is permissable to be reshown, not a violation.
Booster does have header tanks
What if they were using rotisserie mode to keep the propellant spun up around the outside edge of the tanks? Maybe they have fins in there similar to a cement mixer to push it where they want it to be.
lol
How many db does it make at takeoff ?
3rd launch left the pad noticeably faster. Stage 1 sure did have some interesting attitudes later in the orbit. Speaking of the Karman line, named our new kitten Theodore von Karman🤣
*Stage 2
the flame on take off was 4 times the length of the total ship that's close to a 400 meters flame 🔥 🔥
flat spin for prop transfer?
Great video guys. I'm a pilot and some of the views during the tumble made me dizzy, LOL.
Those chunks are hexagonal and in nested groups, they are tiles not ice. They are black not shaded ether because you can see the white ice ones among them.
Leap off the pad is due to no real payload on this flight.
Raptor 3 will further increase thrust but later launches may have payload.
I think that the best argument for deploying functional Starlink satellites 🛰️ is that they can be controlled and commanded to de-orbit when required. Dummy payloads will just be ballistic junk.
Oh! And some Starlink satellites have cameras 📷🎥, right? It would be awesome to see live deployment through the payload bay door! And then be able to look back at Starship as it gets ready 🚀 to re-enter the atmosphere 🔥
Interesting that the tiles flew off when the shield was rolled to the sun---Heating of gasses from frost under tiles ejecting tiles?????
Fuel in the header tank is there to balance out the weight of the engines and make starship have a flyable center of gravity. If they drained the header tank of course the starship would re-enter heavy end first.
When using thrusters the fuel immediately redistributes to wherever the thrusters are pointing.
I think they need a new fuel tank design to prevent the sloshing and center of gravity shifting. Perhaps smaller tanks in a series?
I can't remember where I read this, and it dates back to the early Falcon 9 days, but the engines on the booster are being told to shut down 'by ring', and the delay on the graphic which makes it look like they are shutting down in an odd order is literally a result of the order in which a shutdown confirmation signal is being received at JSC. The Logic, as described at the time, is that no matter how many engines shut down at the same moment, the flight system can only report those back to JSC one-at-a-time... resulting in the funky shutdown order that you see for the booster engines in the graphic in the bottom left corner. It's not as obvious on the graphic for Falcon 9s (fewer engines), but it's easily visible on the graphics for the Super Heavy Boosters (33 engines).
Starhip has control by individual engine, just watch the booster engine shutdown for hotstaging engines shut down in pairs on oposite sides of the centre 3.
@@shaung949Which has absolutely nothing to do with my comments about the graphic showing the engines shutting down in an odd pattern.
@@TheBalrogTxWell I'm not going to try and educate you differently.
LOL, i wish i can record voice coz i loughing very hard here when he says ITS TAKING OFF LIKE A ROCKET, THEN HEREMEMBERES ITS ACTUALLY A ROCKET
I liked the discussion about how IFT-2 showed that no-payload Starship might be able to do a single-stage-to-orbit, I'm curious now whether SpaceX might try a few ship-only launches to test different configurations & control logic for thruster & tank pressurization.
Along that line of thought, it would be amazing to see a superheavy-hover test where it balances like a pencil as they try different maneuvering tweaks.
Maybe a hover could be useful, but that's probably the easiest one to model accurately and they even have data from their early hop tests that should translate to the booster when scaled up in mass and height. As for Starship SSTO, that still counts as orbital most likely and they miss out on integrated flight testing by not having a booster.
But they haven't gotten there yet. The booster only got to the point of a landing burn but didn't actually do it. The aerodynamic controls which are by far significantly harder to model accurately on paper had issues. If you watch closely a few times you'll notice the grid fins increasingly have more authority with just tiny movements in denser atmosphere, and then it starts spinning back and forth due to the fins movements being too big despite how little they moved, eventually it's out of control and you can see the grid fins are actually shaking up and down and look like they got stuck in their max turned position and can't overcome the air resistance anymore to move them back.
Like they said, with the real world data I think they can update their model and make some changes to the controls software. It mostly looked like "pilot induced oscillation". Maybe some hardware revisions to the grid fins if they find the aerodynamic performance to be significantly different than expected. Could even change the power of the servo motors that actuate the fins if they seemed a little underpowered.
@@Jaker788 Good points, I should have clarified that a booster only 'hover' (as I imagine) would be a launch over the Gulf, boost-back, achieve grid-fin control, then restart for an over-the ocean suicide-burn.
Heck, it IS SpaceX so who knows, perhaps a 'pogo stick' test repeating 'free fall & grid fins, relight" but go full thrust with 13 engines to head back up and try free fall again!
If the entire idea is "the data IS the payload" then doing something crazy like multiple up/downs gives you 2x or 3x the data from a single test.
@@HalSchirmer I think when they're at the point a booster can successfully boost back and do a landing burn, they'll probably have the data needed for good enough operation. After that, optimization can be done over time with full integrated flight tests for new data after a change is made for both vehicles. You can only do so much in one test, doing multiple hops in one test may not gather any more than one hop because they need to collect the data from that first hop and make changes before anything will be different.
We'll be getting to the point where they probably will want to try payloads for Starlink and other in orbit required testing, the booster won't be as important to push on specifically to the point of sacrificing progress on Starship test slots. Stuff like orbiting for a week to gather data on maintaining attitude control for long periods will be like, tank pressurization, boil off rates and reduction methods, etc. something they'll need for in orbit refueling.
My assumption for when booster reuse might actually start would be more than a year from now. Currently things are still in flux with hardware revisions that an old booster isn't worth anything but scrap value. Then we have V2 starting something like next year, which will be stretched and have new Raptor V3 engines. That will need some revisions before designs stabilize enough that booster reuse may become beneficial. Periodically from now till the first catch, I believe they'll gather data and continue making changes and optimizations to hardware and software so that when the time comes it'll be hopefully smooth. Potentially some kind of hop test to 10,000ft or 1000ft just to practice the interface with the tower catching before doing the full scenario coming from a boost back.
@@HalSchirmerSuperheavy doesn't do a suicide burn for landing, the current plan is to light all 13 inner engines to kill it's speed then drop to the centre 3 for a soft landing or hover.
@@shaung949 Yup, that's a plan; I was gedanken experiment of booster-only launch doing a 'pogo stick landing' where they do boostback, freefall & fins, then relight 13 and ascend back up to re-do freefall & fin, relighting 13, (repeat as many times as possible; thus packing multiple fin & restart tests from one launch. Use the hoverslam to re-ascend to rapidly test alternate control-logic on each drop back.
It might be handy to stick (a space-proved) Optimus in the next one. He won't need a seat or *_anything._* 😎 PS except a charging point/ bus connection.
48:00 they really should have a dummy payload next time, a mockup starlink sat or whatever to test the pez dispenser.
It's accelerating extremely fast now, but the payload bay was empty too. Comparing to a fully loaded Falcon 9 is not really fair. It's still a BEAST, though. I am not disputing that. Starship will revolutionize space exploration, no doubt about it.
it was actually slower than the second flight.
@12:13 its 37klm high, and it started to move its fins, yet the air density at 37 kilometers is about 0.21% of the air density at sea level. So does it really work, but I guess with the speed it takes up going at 4200klm/h the air pressure is their
I thought the original yaw was to generate centrifugal force on the fuel and oxygen to do the transfer test.
Why is the heatshield side of Starship not flattened or blunted. Why you have a cylinder, it tends to want to roll along its horizontal axis. Flattening the heatshield side of Starship also has the effect of more lift at the right angle of attack during reentry.
Simplicity of manufacturing - of both the fuselage and the number of heat tile variants.
They should put a maniquin or 2 like Starman, inside the Starship.
I think the grid fins motors are not strong enough
Booster didn't have enough propellant to land. It was kinda small for Starship. They need to add few more rings to booster for more fuel and increase tower hight adding one or two more sections on the top.
The tyranny of the rocket equation disagrees.
Starship has seperate tanks for landing.
@@shaung949 I'm talking about a booster.
@@tigranohanyan3321I was talking about both, booster also has landing tanks.
@@shaung949 It was clear that booster fuel was not enough during landing. I can see how engines were cut off because of that in last moment. So they need additional fuel and oxygen for booster which means that they need to increase booster tanks .
Watched a great side by side video of FT 1, 2 and 3 and 2 was spot on the same altitude and velocity as 3 before 2 blew up. Too bad they didn’t get 3 into near orbit because they probably would have solved the issues we see with 3.
Seems like they need more tanks specific to the boost back and other burns. And since the booster never goes into orbit they should be to do it. The increased baffling doesn’t seem to work well.
The rolling can't be good as it exposes the unprotected side to the atmosphere.
space x dart game, onsale soon.
Would have been cool with a camera on the back side.
Main Stream Media can always be counted upon to focus on the sensational and inaccurately report the facts.
They HAVE to keep three Superheavy engines lit and relight the inner ring ASAP to maintain ullage. Not just to keep the fluid from floating around but keep it sufficiently centered around the pickup. That is the primary advantage of hot staging; not any payload advantage to the absence of a few seconds of interrupted thrust.
Consider the potential of tungsten wire holding heat shields in place tungsten has a melting point of 3,000 Celsius 100 kilogram wire net could hold the tiles in place
Tungsten is malleable enough to forge and shape at 1200 degrees.
Maybe ,should have not have the Starship land so soon, instead have it, cruise to the moon and have it become a space station.
Like Falcon, it delivered payloads and serviced the station before landing of the booster and splashdown of Dragon Capsule was ever done.
But developed in conjunction.
Why not make the fuel tanks like piston cylinders and use a piston like baffle to pressurize the tanks, fuel on one side of the baffle and pressurized inert gas on the other to maintain a column of solid fuel to the engines? I'm sure I'm not the first to think of this, so there must be a reason why they don't do it like this, wonder what that was.
0-60 mph in a tower height!
37:46 The webcast presenters at SpaceX never act concerned right away, and I'm sure that it is by design. Just go back to IFT-1 for the most dramatic example of that. Their job is not just to be engineers and scientists when they are in front of the camera and/or narrating, but to also try to put a positive spin on things, if possible. They have a lot of different hats on at the same time when doing these. I am sure the people in the control room knew exactly what the situation was (and probably the presenters too).
Livestream in 4p
Probably not an "unfortunate" headline, but an "intentional" one.
2.2 X the power of Saturn V.
So they arw already on the moon with this thing?
Mars
240p? 120i! oof that playback video is atari 2600 graphics
Not even that
Here's a smart idea... Put a fuel pump on the top of the booster, when it's falling down, the fuel will "Slosh up" and the pump will pump fuel down to the Rocket Engines as it lands onto the Towed Chopsticks.
I think your a bit confused on the physics here, the fuel in the booster would only rise to the top under high acceleration, the booster coming back to earth is decelerating from from the atmosphere, meaning the fuel is at the bottom, and the fuel is def at the bottom when the engines ignite due to high deceleration.
NASA lost 7 Saturn 5’s before they had a successful launch. Nobody seems to remember that RID process.
Dr. Know it all doesn't seem to know it all at all... Give your name to Dr. Walker...
Anybody noticed all that stuff flying past the camera?
Assume engines and tiles would have made it to the surface.
It was not a failure.it was a great success, though not 100% perfect.
Why does Scott keep saying you need pressure inside the ship to keep it from collapsing while in orbit? There may be other reasons for maintaining pressure inside (like later for reentry when external atmospheric pressure becomes a factor), but once Starship is in space, there is no external pressure, so you CAN have a vacuum inside and the ship will not collapse because there is a vacuum outside. How does this guy not know this?
Scott invented a new acronym: AOT for "Ass Over Teakettle" to describe the spin in various directions. 😄
Let us hope that next time @SpaceX plans to land/ditch in the ocean, perhaps one or more trackers could be attached that might allow a "black box" be recovered. @Elon is fond of comparing rockets to airliners when speaking of "reusability", so apply the lessons.
Love the commentary, but this was most definitely not HD.
The booster fuel tanks are too large. The same problem occurred on the last two separations. Engines are starving. Make the tanks smaller and put more in. Beef up the vector thrusters to compensate the uneven weight distribution.
Looks like SpaceX didn't properly test the PEZ doors. When you have curved doors you need special hinge linkages. They should have opened and closed it hundreds to thousands of times. Durability, wear and tear, and fatigue.
I don't think there was any attitude control on this Starship.
I'm sure you're aware of the hideously pixelated launch video you showed.
YOU TWO, on the other hand, were CRYSTAL CLEAR.
Good Commentary. I kinda wish you have watchable video.
The SpaceX stream was in HD, why is this in 360p or less? Your entire video including yours and your guest's video is low resolution.
IFT 4 I think not before May 1 st. more likely June first almost certainly on or before Tau day repeat IFT 3 solving problems. First Starlink deploys 6 or 8 full size real sats on IFT 5 they will not use dummy loads because that is just putting up space junk, the will not put up the 40+ the theoretically could because thats to big a risk and puting 6 in the first three slots and one in the very last slot makes for a good FULL test risking only 8 million vs. the 40+ million filling it would risk.