I may be mistaken (as most of my knowledge on the subject comes from an old Brandon Herrera video), but it should be trivial for Mark to register his lathe as machine gun because he's an SOT, he basically just has to inform the ATF that he's done so. I suspect that what's stopping him doing it is that it might cause problems if he then wants to use the lathe as a lathe.
Wonder if a simple roller bearing would be enough? Mill a step out along the circumference so the rim of the case is sticking out and just run the roller along the edge. Rounds per minute is just how fast the chuck spins.
@@dangerrangerlstc I think it would be - you’re just making a crimping press that is set up to crimp on a different plane. The lack of fixed position dies is obviated by the massive amount of rigidity you have in that machine.
Spring loaded center punch would’ve been a great option, doesn’t matter the speed at which the punch feeds, just have to adjust the stopping point of the punch and let the punch do it’s job as a firing pin
As said poor engineering student I really appreciate these connections between book/lecture and something far more interesting. Also you occasionally say something that I comprehend and it’s a pleasant surprise, like hearing a foreign language and catching part of a sentence. Thank you for putting out interesting content, a lot of us at Riddle like your work.
@@RagingShrimp67 he should machine a machine gun on his machine gun, or make a machine gun making machine gun with the machine gun machine gun maker I probably have to register this comment with the feds and pay a tax stamp on it
Good video man. Not enough people show their failures and trouble shooting. Its easy to show something that works but much more valuable to to explain how you got there.
@@jic1 It'd actually be rather brilliant. Make the AFT either go a bridge too far and say that lathes are machine guns, suddenly getting every machine shop in the union personally involved, or say that things aren't machine guns just because they conform to their definition of a machine gun. They have no right answer.
This is so stupid and clever at the same time, I love it. You could maybe put rubber washers in between where the shoulders of the blanks meet the firing chamber, lifting them slightly higher out of it, then keep the program the same. That way the PID won't have slowed down the punch tip too much as the strike happens, and the rubber will allow some compression so it doesn't break something by having too long a stroke for the space.
The issue with a spring loaded punch is that the punch needs to be cocked. On a Starrett punch, the cocking depth is over .350". If the chamber has a bottom and a 90 degree vent hole, IMO it no longer has the ability to expel a projectile. It's the readily convertible section that gets you.
You could have a firing pin for each hole on the diameter of a disk and have that disk rock in a circular motion on a central pivot point. Have a rolling arm that pushes the depth of travel on the back end of the disk at one side of its outer edge so one firing pin engages at a time as the barle assembly rotates. Than the fiering sequence happens at the speed of rotation. You can also use rocking arms so that the firing disk rotates in line with the cartridge assembly.
Love this! Have you ever looked at an Remington-Elliot ring derringer In 22lr? 5 barrels drilled in one piece of steel with a mechanism that rotates the firing pin to each barrel… the barrel does not turn. Very clever. I can appreciate the machining on that one and your 12 barrel.
That was also the action on the colt "defender" 8 barreled shotgun, i believe. Or i might be remembering the design of one of the 4 barrel liberator shotguns we made to give to freedom fighters.
I find that gun channels teach me more about engineering that I would have learned in real life. I do find it fascinating which is surprising to me, because I've an eighth grade education and yet im a blacksmith and I custom build muzzleloaders. I guess one doesn't need to go into lifetime debt to become a craftsman. Thanx for your videos. Always interesting.
Spring loaded punch with a slight over travel would be my first idea to make it more reliable on the firing but would have to adjust timing and program depending on what you have available.
Mechanically link the firing pin to the rotation of the cylinder. Much like the hand of a revolver links the cylinder rotation to index the chambers to the firing position, this would both synchronize the chambers to the firing position and physically drive the firing pin, by transferring the rotational movement into a fore and aft reciprocation. No firing pin spring to drive it - drive the firing pin mechanically with the speed of rotation. Complex cam path (especially at .22 scales), but a fairly bombproof setup in terms to timing and strike depth. The faster it rotates, the more smartly.the firing pin will strike. The limiting factor would be strength of materials and linkages.
Have 12 firing pins already installed on the cylinder head with the backs of them exposed. Then use a roller wheel attached to the lathe moving thingy that holds a cutting tool come into contact with the firing pins, and BAMM!! You have a super fast machine gun!
As has been pointed out, the punch needs a rounded or pointed end instead of a flat one to concentrate the striking force into a smaller area. However, the main problem for your motion is the positional profile of the punch. Instead of an A-shaped motion, where the punch comes in and out in one motional operation, you need a trapezoidal profile, where the punch comes in, lingers for a few milliseconds, and then backs out. Of course, you still need the PID tuning on the punch motion to allow it to have the maximum deceleration of that axis so the the punch acts as a striker.
control theory is so magical, not in the "g-code works like magic" way, its a very simple mathematical concept that allows you to basically make anything smart
A few years back when I built my own electric metal melting furnace I used a PID to control the heating elements. It was my introduction to PIDs and surprisingly it still works.
It is always reassuring to watch your videos, as it shows that there is at least one other mechanical design and production engineer who is crazier than I am. It is a good thing you had your kids showing up in the video, as it also proves you had at least two bright moments in your existence. Greetings from Switzerland's' high-precision belt!
I can't recall the name but a guy did exactly that with a sten like gun that had no trigger and was set up to slamfire and pretty much runaway in full auto. One just loaded and inserted the magazine home and then just pulled back and let the bolt fly and the gun would empty itself. Since there wasn't a provision to control when the bolt releases, it truly had no trigger. The ATF caught on and they obviously aren't around any more.
Define trigger! You can't have a gun without a trigger, or it would fire the ammo as soon as it was loaded. In this case, the trigger was a button on the machine.
For those interested in my previous post, it was called the "Sputter Gun" by William H. York. None were sold apparently. Neat bit of a "forgotten weapon" 😉.
I am not just an engineer, I was a CNC controls engineer. I understand quite well what is happening. If you were to set your control for exact stop, it would always close out on the move. Or put a dwell of length 0 in the next block (G04X0;). At least on a Fanuc that will force an exact stop. That is probably the safest fix as fiddling with the override won't cause it to run the part into the part like adjusting and offset would. Definitely a cool bit of shop fun.
run a negative offset so you smash that primer! also why didnt you do like a gear that rolls with the spindle to get them to fire at the speed of rotation?
Would putting in a little striker into the cap, either over each hole or on a spinning arm that is times to stop in each position, make it work from throwing that mass forward with no deceleration?
The pin could be a spring loaded ramp. Lets say you put 12 tiny fixed ramps right next to each firing pin impact spot, on each chamber. Now on the other side instead of a pin you have another single spring loaded ramp as the "firing pin". As the lathe rotates, that tiny "primer ramp" with be cocked by one of the 12 fixed ramps. Once it clears the fixed ramp it will slam down into the cartridge. Nothing complicated.
As a quadcopter pilot PIDs are part of life. I learned pids in my control theory course but you really learn it when you can see what the I term is doing as it overloads and causes oscillations or when you D is too high and the quad overshoots a roll.
I use PID loop controls on a daily basis, imagine how complicated things can get when you have multiple control elements/valves on say a Hydraulic system that all feed back to a main controller, some of them feed forward to the other elements of the system, there are multiple feed paths that need to be pressure balanced with each other and the pumps are pushing out around 80 Bar pressure and if you get things wrong and starve an eight stage pump that costs £250k you gonna have a really bad day........ oh, and did I mention the oil is preheated to 130 Deg C, so if you get a leak it injects super hot oil straight in to your body....... FML.
@@nickmaclachlan5178 hmm, 80 bar seems low for hydraulics, I assume it is a high flow system? I am building a 300 bar 450c hydrogen reactor right now, lol. Controls are easy but materials choice is actual cancer
@@Ammoniummetavanadate It's actually a constant pressure fuel oil feed/recirculation system for 48 Power station Ignition burners, approx 500Mw of output. It controls from zero flow and max recirc all the way to max flow whilst still maintaining a minimum recirc value. In certain conditions it flows as much as 25 Tonnes of oil per hour. The trick is to balance the flow in all conditions as the number of burners firing can change minute by minute. It's a nightmare from a controls perspective, but also from the mechanical side as it's lifting the fuel from ground level up about 50 metres and back down again. Bleeding the air out on initial filling is a complete PITA, as is draining it when the unit is turned off. If you leave oil in, it will solidify if the temp drops...... then you're proper fucked......
What I'd like to see is a sensor placed on the barrel. That can catch harmonics. That knows when the bullet passes. Then tells a control unit to unlock the breach, eject the case. And then load another round. Or better yet. You can calculate the last little bit of energy stored in the powder charge. After the projectile has left the barrel. Somewhere, somehow, there has to be a way around having a op rod or gas tube on the barrel. Probably not robust and battlefield tough. But just high-tech fun stuff. Of course this is all about my pay grade. I'm just a cook and part-time Welder. And I like 3D printing.
So I'm a little late with the spring loaded center punch solution, but that would work. Also, you could program a little radius at the bottom of the rapid stroke. Just big enough that it doesn't have to come to a full stop and reverse on Z? Though it kind of still would. I used to do something similar when I had to program broaching on a CNC lathe. Saves wear on something or other. Maybe.
Showing the sticker with warnings for possible injury due to unsupported tailback brought to mind my earlier life as a wanna-be apprentice. My boss, a "master" machinist, left the tailstock loose, a ten foot piece of one inch roundstock being fed thru a 12 foot lathe. The round stock started to wobble, the lathe started bouncing, the six or so foot length of unsupported round stock moved that old lathe, cast iron base and all, completely up off the concrete pad, ripped the control panel off the wall and a string of eight foot fluorescent lights out of the ceiling. Take care.
@@XtreeM_FaiL I was thinking the way it's got a spring would let you program it so the PID doesn't need to worry about as much overtravel. Lets you hit the primer with it moving faster.
This is why people should never be stopped from playing responsibly with guns. Harmless safety minded tinkering, the kind that stirred the mind of a young John Browning.
50cal Val is lucky to even appear on her dad's channel, jeez. Next time just blur her face out and caption it with "anonymous". Also, wish my dad was still around to see this kinda thing, we did all kinds of projects in his machine shop on the CNC lathe and mill but never got into guns just because we're behind enemy lines over here in CA.
@@ryanthede4689 she’s fine but honestly I’m more interested in the mechanics of it. Definitely prettier then Mark, but I’m not in the market for creeping on a young woman who I share only one interest with.
FINALLY!! Something I know more about than the average gun nut or operator lol. I spent 30 years as an industrial instrumentation technician just for THIS moment! Words that I know! ...aaaand it's past.
Use a gear or sprocket with several "firing pins" that key into the firing pin holes. The C axis tool would remain stationary, the sprocket would spin with the lathe and you would presumably not have to worry about stopping at all.
Spring loaded center punch. You would have to slow down a bit more, but the hammering effect would certainly fire the primers each time. Simply set the travel to a few thousandths past the break point on the center punch or make a rudimentary hammer and sear to come in and break at your desired LB point. Just a couple suggestions for reliability. US Navy Machinery Repairman 2nd class (8 year Veteran). Zip~
i had a thought just now, after a long day at the shop trying to replace a ball screw in a johnford lathe. i used my auto punch to mark a few things for orientation when it occurred to me; why dont you use an auto punch to try to set the primers off?
could have cheated by rigging 12 pins up to hit the primers all at the same time making it a multi-shot gun and since it's not a machine gun it's now youtube friendly
@@theazuzhaters9988 No it wouldn’t. There’s a pistol made by some company that fires two rounds with one pull of the trigger. The two rounds fire from two different barrels. By atf definition, it’s not a machine gun. There are also double barrel, side by side, ar15s’. Those are not considered machine guns either. You can even fire two rounds out of a traditional coach shotgun at the same time as well. That’s not considered a machine gun either.
You will probably need a large primer to power all the pins reliably, so to say. Once saw a guy make himself a seven shot .22 caliber conversion for a flaregun, and the hammer on the thing just didn't have enough oomph for the plate with the blade pins to strike the rims hard enough.
@@DeoVindice_61-65 yes that's true but a couch gun double barrel has two triggers. Making it still one round per trigger pull. If you get multiple rounds per trigger pull it is by definition a machine gun.
Mark, your channel has become something of an adventure for me. I first came to your page from Scott @ Kentucky Ballitics thinking I would only learn about your firearms. It's almost like you're one of the civil engineers watch. Thanks for awesome videos, and hope for lots more to come.
I thought (before the end cap appeared) that you were gonna spin the lathe and bring a tool in to set off the blanks one after the other as fast as the lathe could spin, so it would sound like a machine gun
For what it's worth... We (U.S. Air Force) use electrically initiated primers in the 20mm and larger GAU cannons. You may already be aware, but I thought it worth mentioning in case it helps the fun continue.
Well, that was awesome. My thought was a spring-loaded 'auto-punch', which would make the machine's accel/deceleration irrelevant. Trying to figure out the plunge on that might be a good way to break a punch though...
Punch that works right from the get go? Easy. Make the endcap. Put thread on end cap. Turn a disc with an internal tread (to thread onto the endcap) and an external thread. Cut 12 grooves into it, creating 12 equal leaf springs. turn an outside nut that pretensions against the backstop and pulls back the leaf springs. Unscrew the cap slowly (or quickly if you want to). Wherever the thread leaves the last grove, a pin is released and fires a barrel. The full final revolution releases all 12 shots, neatly timed after one another.
Easy way, just tune your rapid position to compensate for your PID overshoot protection - tell the pin to go further than you "need" it to go and accept damage risk. Or do it the right way and program the deceleration event into your striking event to get smooth and precise location control, but that takes effort. The thinking man would just incorporate a fixed energy firing mechanism instead of a dowel, like a spring loaded punch, into the design, so your PID can have inherent slop.
That pin punch does compress a little in normal use.crap have to use calculus to find a ramp down speed to meet compression. Last question; does it only have to be successful more than once? If not ping the crap of firing pin socket maybe 2 thousands or so?
Wow...someone with an engineering degree that's actually programming and running a CNC lathe, and learning that their initial bullshit *never* works in the real world. I wish ME's were required to actually do programming and running on CNC lathes & mills in order to get that precious degree.
lol.. It is a partnership - We design the parts, you get them to work... lol... Kidding, anyone who has actually controlled real world things (especially scratch-built complex systems), knows it is an iterative process. (Obviously the ME needs to be willing to contemplate that the machinist actually knows his stuff... The machinist or fabricators all know that the Engineer just has a fanciful CAD model he dreamt up.)
@@kadmow I can't even tell you how many times I had to make revisions to blueprints, and get them approved of course, in order for things to actually be correct. That includes custom designed tooling as well. 🤦♂️
ATF- ummm guys we need to ban this weapon of war, we don't need this guy taking this machine gun into an airport. Machinist- really, it weights over 2300 lbs!!! ATF- ya but if you were to attach an arm brace to it, that's where we'll have a problem, we will arrest you!!!!!!
How about a rotary firing pin , something like a stitch roller ( google it for reference). Syncing it up could be complicated but a ring gear on the perimeter of the .22 cylinder might be a good way to go about it.
Or just make a relief cut on the outermost perimeter of the .22 cylinder and just have a smooth roller bearing pressed against the cylinder to line up with the rim of the “blank”. If that works you could get some crazy rpm.
You could modify a centerpunch to do the job. Something spring-loaded, meant for marking spots on finish nails. They’re pen-shaped and sized. Alternatively, just make the firing pin spring-loaded and add a ramp after each cartridge. As the firing pin reaches the Eid of the “Ramp” the spring makes it “Fall” against the next rim, making the entire assembly a lot simpler. Don’t even need to program it to push the pin in place besides the first time, the spring handles the rest.
You know, I thought the same thing. I just want in the firearms industry, firearms design, machining, etc. I had a job at a local firearms manufacture for all of 3 weeks as a shop hand before I called it quits. Polishing parts ALL day is not fun, especially when you're given denatured alcohol as a coolant and forbidden from wearing gloves (because you're sanding/polishing on a lathe). In a bigger shop you may work up to CNC machinist, which isn't too fun either in a production setting.
@@freedomfan4272 Yeah, no thanks. The point of my comment was to illustrate how it may sound awesome to get in such a position but it's not all it's cracked up to be, especially in a production oriented setting.
If you build the cap like a ball and socket, use a large diamiter tapered spring and pit pinns on the inside of the cap. You can use a contact roller on the outside and as it spinns it will ignite the primers
If you take a presser washer pump apart you would see a rotational plate set at an angle and sitting on top of the plate are spring return pins, a mechanism like this would be suitable for your task, but you would have to clamp the gun chamber to the tool post and put the pump like setup in the lathes chock
This vid made me sub. 25+ years as a cnc engineer. Mainly turning. This could be improved upon loads. Could sync a broching tool to the position axis be quicker. Even a max feed rate is better than rapid. Its does not allow for backlash error so rapid in then fast feed last .5/1mm. Or a numatic punch set for the sync of rotation. Anyway hope we see aother one like this awesome job.
How about a spring loaded center punch instead of the normal punch in the tool holder? That way it presses in, but reserves its "enginerdigy" until the last second, when it actually snaps and imposes the impact on the primer in a rather sudden fashion, instead of a leisurely pace. That's the main thing I see here, the punch isn't hitting the primers fast enough. You of anyone know about firing pin velocities. The counterargument to that is that much like the solid punch, the spring loaded punch crushes the primer slowly. With the spring loaded one, before releasing energy, and by the time it actually snaps to crush the primer, well, it's already been slowly crushed and does nothing. There's no space to suddenly collapse the chemical compound together and detonate it. Kind of like my heart in the dating world, but that's a universal struggle among aspiring engineers! LOL! I might be an enginerding student (and maybe a good, maybe a bad one) at that, but impulse is the main thing comes to mind here. Force over time. A certain amount of force applied over a short amount of time might just do the trick! Crushing a primer slowly doesn't do squat, but suddenly hitting it with the same amount of kinetic energy, like a hammer, is what sets the chemical reaction off. The challenge I foresee here is this: the spring loaded punch does not apply enough force during the load up, prematurely crushing the primer, letting go too late and impacting the primer after it's been crushed with no result. Either way, I think it would be a very interesting aspect of physics to explore! Looking forward to a follow up video!
It has been some time but I do know there is a code that will force the machine to actually hit the spot that it has been programmed to achieve.. in spite of the speed that is going it will still make sure that it makes that position before it moves on to the next. It is not absolute programming but it is another code. Like I said it has been some time since I've done this period but back in the day I was taught by a very smart individual who work for Haas. I think his name was Marshall. when it comes to CNC Machining he is worth his weight in gold.
Guns use hammers and strikers. You need to replicate that striker action. Make the punch spring-loaded and a mechanism resets it for the next chamber. Consider adding a ramp on the left of the cylinder bore and a spring-loaded punch. As the cylinder rotates, it raises the punch and when a new chamber is presented it lunges forward and strikes the rim. Speed is only limited by the spring strength relative to the mass of the punch. It may be necessary to recess the cartridge chamber more to get sufficient power from the striker.
Use a similar mechanism as is used in a spring-loaded center punch. While the tool is decelerating the firing pin should still be impacting the casing with a significant amount of force.
I built a 10 barrel .22 cal short, Gatling gun many years ago. It was an exercise in frustration. Rim fire ammo just isn't as reliable as a center fire. There were other complications with making the bolts with the F pin off set and the way the extractor was designed cause failure blow outs of the cartridges occasionally. So the next one I build will be in .32 or 9mm
Add a ring of spring steel with "firing pins" attached to little arms for each chamber. Let CNC pick and release each firing pin. OR attach a small L shaped "trigger" to each pin. The punch moves in front of first trigger. Head rotates causing pin lift and fire. Would sound like a real machine gun. But operates more like old west gunslinger holding trigger while slapping back the hammer with the off hand. Hardest part would be getting the right spring weight.
Make a punch backed up by some belleville washers. Then you can rapid to a point behind the primer, and the washers will just compress. So long as they're stiff enough to still crush the rim but not overload the axis, you're good to go (and I'm sure it'd take a LOT to overload the axis).
It may have already been suggested in the comments, but you can try one of those percussive center punches that self punch when the tip has a bit of pressure applied to them so even at any speed so ling as the insert depth meets the minimum retraction for the center punch to engage you will get the impact force required to set off the primers.
I will start engineering school soon! I have a very hard path ahead of me and trust me this type of content is going to be very helpful in learning basic engineering principals!
Mark please register a lathe as a machine gun. That would be hilarious.
Bump 1000x
That would be just amazing. May result in the world's largest .22 caliber machinegun
Register it is a machine gun and then stop making payments on it
What happens if he produces a suppressor on that lathe after registering it as a machine gun? At what point does that need registering?
I may be mistaken (as most of my knowledge on the subject comes from an old Brandon Herrera video), but it should be trivial for Mark to register his lathe as machine gun because he's an SOT, he basically just has to inform the ATF that he's done so. I suspect that what's stopping him doing it is that it might cause problems if he then wants to use the lathe as a lathe.
Being a rim fire cartridge I was expecting a knurling wheel type roller to crush the rims at any spindle speed. Like a 3000 rpm zip gun.
Same
that'd be my first guess, and my personal favorite over the automatic center punch (I like hitting things with hammers)
Wonder if a simple roller bearing would be enough? Mill a step out along the circumference so the rim of the case is sticking out and just run the roller along the edge. Rounds per minute is just how fast the chuck spins.
@@dangerrangerlstc I think it would be - you’re just making a crimping press that is set up to crimp on a different plane. The lack of fixed position dies is obviated by the massive amount of rigidity you have in that machine.
might as well just crash a section of tube against the rims :)
Spring loaded center punch would’ve been a great option, doesn’t matter the speed at which the punch feeds, just have to adjust the stopping point of the punch and let the punch do it’s job as a firing pin
I thought of that then I read the comments and saw that we think a little alike.
Damn you beat me to it!!!
imagine this all 12 bullets let off at once by making thee entire back plate have 12 different punches
@@tinnyweinerman676 then that would be perfectly legal and not be a machine gun I believe, would fall under volley fire
As said poor engineering student I really appreciate these connections between book/lecture and something far more interesting. Also you occasionally say something that I comprehend and it’s a pleasant surprise, like hearing a foreign language and catching part of a sentence.
Thank you for putting out interesting content, a lot of us at Riddle like your work.
A machine gun, in the most literal sense.
Machining gun.
@@RagingShrimp67 he should machine a machine gun on his machine gun, or make a machine gun making machine gun with the machine gun machine gun maker
I probably have to register this comment with the feds and pay a tax stamp on it
Good video man. Not enough people show their failures and trouble shooting. Its easy to show something that works but much more valuable to to explain how you got there.
If you register that as a MG that would be a meme. A post sample lathe.
But then what happens when he wants to use it as a lathe?
@@jic1 It'd actually be rather brilliant. Make the AFT either go a bridge too far and say that lathes are machine guns, suddenly getting every machine shop in the union personally involved, or say that things aren't machine guns just because they conform to their definition of a machine gun. They have no right answer.
@@jsn1252 you’re dangerously smart
@@jsn1252 _"They have no right answer."_ That's never stopped the ATF before!
But of course, when you make the ATF mad they just end up burning down your house and incinerating children…
This is so stupid and clever at the same time, I love it.
You could maybe put rubber washers in between where the shoulders of the blanks meet the firing chamber, lifting them slightly higher out of it, then keep the program the same. That way the PID won't have slowed down the punch tip too much as the strike happens, and the rubber will allow some compression so it doesn't break something by having too long a stroke for the space.
stick to real housewives, dunce.
A spring punch with the tool path set a couple of thou deeper than zero?
Same
Beat me to it.
That was my theory
The issue with a spring loaded punch is that the punch needs to be cocked. On a Starrett punch, the cocking depth is over .350".
If the chamber has a bottom and a 90 degree vent hole, IMO it no longer has the ability to expel a projectile. It's the readily convertible section that gets you.
@@gungadinn what if it was a pop punch? Set the timing so the punch arms and pops at the correct distance.
You could have a firing pin for each hole on the diameter of a disk and have that disk rock in a circular motion on a central pivot point. Have a rolling arm that pushes the depth of travel on the back end of the disk at one side of its outer edge so one firing pin engages at a time as the barle assembly rotates. Than the fiering sequence happens at the speed of rotation. You can also use rocking arms so that the firing disk rotates in line with the cartridge assembly.
Love this! Have you ever looked at an Remington-Elliot ring derringer In 22lr? 5 barrels drilled in one piece of steel with a mechanism that rotates the firing pin to each barrel… the barrel does not turn. Very clever. I can appreciate the machining on that one and your 12 barrel.
No but I just looked it up. Very cool, thanks!
That was also the action on the colt "defender" 8 barreled shotgun, i believe. Or i might be remembering the design of one of the 4 barrel liberator shotguns we made to give to freedom fighters.
Could’ve chucked up an automatic center punch and programmed enough release to reset the mechanism.
Winner 😎
Exactly what I was thinking. Then speed of the tool doesn’t matter
This is the suggestion i was looking for
Or a simple piezoelectric current into a vacuum chamber array... But you know .. go ahead and keep using that euclidean engineering...
An evil Mark Serbu would execute all his foes with this “device”… one at a time.
I'm canceling my meeting with Mark now; had my suspicions about meeting up at 2:27.
Dang, should the band-saw ever go crazy, you've got the perfect weapon to stop it.
so is the the complicated version of, sticking a round in a bench vise and hitting the back end with a hammer?!?!
Yup typical enginerd making things more complicated than it's supposed to 😂👍
Who uses a vice? Just hold it between your teeth and bite hard!
@@R1davies then hit the primer with a tongue stud.
Upgrades people upgrades
I find that gun channels teach me more about engineering that I would have learned in real life. I do find it fascinating which is surprising to me, because I've an eighth grade education and yet im a blacksmith and I custom build muzzleloaders. I guess one doesn't need to go into lifetime debt to become a craftsman. Thanx for your videos. Always interesting.
Spring loaded punch with a slight over travel would be my first idea to make it more reliable on the firing but would have to adjust timing and program depending on what you have available.
Mechanically link the firing pin to the rotation of the cylinder. Much like the hand of a revolver links the cylinder rotation to index the chambers to the firing position, this would both synchronize the chambers to the firing position and physically drive the firing pin, by transferring the rotational movement into a fore and aft reciprocation. No firing pin spring to drive it - drive the firing pin mechanically with the speed of rotation.
Complex cam path (especially at .22 scales), but a fairly bombproof setup in terms to timing and strike depth. The faster it rotates, the more smartly.the firing pin will strike. The limiting factor would be strength of materials and linkages.
Have 12 firing pins already installed on the cylinder head with the backs of them exposed. Then use a roller wheel attached to the lathe moving thingy that holds a cutting tool come into contact with the firing pins, and BAMM!! You have a super fast machine gun!
You just described the patent for the Gatling Gun.
As has been pointed out, the punch needs a rounded or pointed end instead of a flat one to concentrate the striking force into a smaller area. However, the main problem for your motion is the positional profile of the punch. Instead of an A-shaped motion, where the punch comes in and out in one motional operation, you need a trapezoidal profile, where the punch comes in, lingers for a few milliseconds, and then backs out. Of course, you still need the PID tuning on the punch motion to allow it to have the maximum deceleration of that axis so the the punch acts as a striker.
control theory is so magical, not in the "g-code works like magic" way, its a very simple mathematical concept that allows you to basically make anything smart
A few years back when I built my own electric metal melting furnace I used a PID to control the heating elements. It was my introduction to PIDs and surprisingly it still works.
I am a milwrite
An Engineer will walk through a room full of naked women to fuck a millwright.
I thought your grampa was in ww2!!!!
Millwright pendejo. Just kidding Edwin 😂
I doubt Edwin can fix a sandwich, let alone any machinery.
You mean MillWRONG.
It is always reassuring to watch your videos, as it shows that there is at least one other mechanical design and production engineer who is crazier than I am. It is a good thing you had your kids showing up in the video, as it also proves you had at least two bright moments in your existence. Greetings from Switzerland's' high-precision belt!
I think Mark and AvE would have lots of fun together.
The world might implode... or a wormhole would open.
Those Two Probably Arent Allowed Near Each Other.
I'd love to see that happen!
Keep that drunk Canuck in BC.
This would be bliss!
Increase depth of penetration to compensate, now that’s a lesson most of us learn in highschool in the backseat of our parents suv.
“A machine gun is defined as ... with a single pull of the trigger”.
Easy. No trigger.
I can't recall the name but a guy did exactly that with a sten like gun that had no trigger and was set up to slamfire and pretty much runaway in full auto. One just loaded and inserted the magazine home and then just pulled back and let the bolt fly and the gun would empty itself. Since there wasn't a provision to control when the bolt releases, it truly had no trigger. The ATF caught on and they obviously aren't around any more.
I assume the ATF defines a trigger as anything that initiates the firing sequence. Here, it would be the Cycle Start button on the lathe.
I like your style
Define trigger! You can't have a gun without a trigger, or it would fire the ammo as soon as it was loaded. In this case, the trigger was a button on the machine.
For those interested in my previous post, it was called the "Sputter Gun" by William H. York. None were sold apparently. Neat bit of a "forgotten weapon" 😉.
"We can't stop, we have to slow down first" ~ Space Balls
"Are we stopped"
"Yes sir"
"Good. How about a five minute break?"
@@dangerrangerlstc Smoke em if you got em
only an engineer would make it more complicated than "make it go in further"
Making it go in farther won't help. Only a non-engineer wouldn't understand why.
@@markserbu lmao nice
**Farther*
@@markserbu Use a automatic center punch.
In further and it crashes the punch and breaks something
I am not just an engineer, I was a CNC controls engineer. I understand quite well what is happening. If you were to set your control for exact stop, it would always close out on the move. Or put a dwell of length 0 in the next block (G04X0;). At least on a Fanuc that will force an exact stop. That is probably the safest fix as fiddling with the override won't cause it to run the part into the part like adjusting and offset would.
Definitely a cool bit of shop fun.
run a negative offset so you smash that primer! also why didnt you do like a gear that rolls with the spindle to get them to fire at the speed of rotation?
Crashing a very expensive machine for demo seems rather silly.
@@guytech7310 mehh its a soft crash not a hard crash
@@the_chomper a crash is a crash; just ask any motorcyclist
This was done by me thirty years ago. You made my day fella. Shame I did not film my hoarsening around in the shop. Good day fella.
Would putting in a little striker into the cap, either over each hole or on a spinning arm that is times to stop in each position, make it work from throwing that mass forward with no deceleration?
Another gem from America’s favorite mad scientist gun enginerd
"Storms coming Annie, you better get home quick!" - Mark Serbu
Read this I’m her voice lmao
"I can feel it in ma bones."
@@JosStrange ⁷
Anne are you ok
@@JosStrange отщ
Number one guy to have in your community during the zombie apocalypse
behold, mark "not elon musk" serbu's sequel to the "not a flamethrower"
the not a lathe machine gun
The pin could be a spring loaded ramp. Lets say you put 12 tiny fixed ramps right next to each firing pin impact spot, on each chamber. Now on the other side instead of a pin you have another single spring loaded ramp as the "firing pin". As the lathe rotates, that tiny "primer ramp" with be cocked by one of the 12 fixed ramps. Once it clears the fixed ramp it will slam down into the cartridge. Nothing complicated.
As a quadcopter pilot PIDs are part of life.
I learned pids in my control theory course but you really learn it when you can see what the I term is doing as it overloads and causes oscillations or when you D is too high and the quad overshoots a roll.
I use PID loop controls on a daily basis, imagine how complicated things can get when you have multiple control elements/valves on say a Hydraulic system that all feed back to a main controller, some of them feed forward to the other elements of the system, there are multiple feed paths that need to be pressure balanced with each other and the pumps are pushing out around 80 Bar pressure and if you get things wrong and starve an eight stage pump that costs £250k you gonna have a really bad day........ oh, and did I mention the oil is preheated to 130 Deg C, so if you get a leak it injects super hot oil straight in to your body....... FML.
@@nickmaclachlan5178 hmm, 80 bar seems low for hydraulics, I assume it is a high flow system?
I am building a 300 bar 450c hydrogen reactor right now, lol. Controls are easy but materials choice is actual cancer
@@Ammoniummetavanadate It's actually a constant pressure fuel oil feed/recirculation system for 48 Power station Ignition burners, approx 500Mw of output. It controls from zero flow and max recirc all the way to max flow whilst still maintaining a minimum recirc value. In certain conditions it flows as much as 25 Tonnes of oil per hour. The trick is to balance the flow in all conditions as the number of burners firing can change minute by minute. It's a nightmare from a controls perspective, but also from the mechanical side as it's lifting the fuel from ground level up about 50 metres and back down again. Bleeding the air out on initial filling is a complete PITA, as is draining it when the unit is turned off. If you leave oil in, it will solidify if the temp drops...... then you're proper fucked......
@@nickmaclachlan5178 goddamn, that sounds super rad.
@@Ammoniummetavanadate It honestly could have been done a lot simpler, but you know what design engineers are like right?
What I'd like to see is a sensor placed on the barrel. That can catch harmonics. That knows when the bullet passes. Then tells a control unit to unlock the breach, eject the case. And then load another round. Or better yet. You can calculate the last little bit of energy stored in the powder charge. After the projectile has left the barrel. Somewhere, somehow, there has to be a way around having a op rod or gas tube on the barrel. Probably not robust and battlefield tough. But just high-tech fun stuff. Of course this is all about my pay grade. I'm just a cook and part-time Welder. And I like 3D printing.
So I'm a little late with the spring loaded center punch solution, but that would work. Also, you could program a little radius at the bottom of the rapid stroke. Just big enough that it doesn't have to come to a full stop and reverse on Z? Though it kind of still would. I used to do something similar when I had to program broaching on a CNC lathe. Saves wear on something or other. Maybe.
Best use of a Haas I've ever seen!
Put firing pins in all 12 holes and use a “bearing on a stick” to roll against said pins... turn on the main spindle to have a gatling
Best solution, I think. No sear wear and individually replaceable. Then again, how many times would you want to spend ammo firing this thing?
That is why, the only way I would have a mg, is if someone else would buy the ammo, and keep me supplied...
Showing the sticker with warnings for possible injury due to unsupported tailback brought to mind my earlier life as a wanna-be apprentice.
My boss, a "master" machinist, left the tailstock loose, a ten foot piece of one inch roundstock being fed thru a 12 foot lathe.
The round stock started to wobble, the lathe started bouncing, the six or so foot length of unsupported round stock moved that old lathe, cast iron base and all, completely up off the concrete pad, ripped the control panel off the wall and a string of eight foot fluorescent lights out of the ceiling.
Take care.
It's a total guess from a non-engineer, but would have using a center punch (with a lighter spring) have helped?
I like the way you think. Great idea in my book.
I don't think that spring loaded center punch do any good.
They have very sharp point that concentrates all the pressure to a very small area.
I think .22 firing pins are more like a small flathead screwdriver.
@@XtreeM_FaiL It's trivial to change the shape of the point.
@@XtreeM_FaiL I was thinking the way it's got a spring would let you program it so the PID doesn't need to worry about as much overtravel. Lets you hit the primer with it moving faster.
This is why people should never be stopped from playing responsibly with guns. Harmless safety minded tinkering, the kind that stirred the mind of a young John Browning.
Spring loaded punch. Over travel the depth by a couple thousandths.
You're a natural teacher
50cal Val is lucky to even appear on her dad's channel, jeez. Next time just blur her face out and caption it with "anonymous". Also, wish my dad was still around to see this kinda thing, we did all kinds of projects in his machine shop on the CNC lathe and mill but never got into guns just because we're behind enemy lines over here in CA.
I’m sure she gets loads of gross trolls.
It's not like she doesn't have her own channel already
Why tho? Did she do something?
@@ryanthede4689 She hasn't posted to it in years sadly. Her content was good.
@@ryanthede4689 she’s fine but honestly I’m more interested in the mechanics of it. Definitely prettier then Mark, but I’m not in the market for creeping on a young woman who I share only one interest with.
FINALLY!! Something I know more about than the average gun nut or operator lol. I spent 30 years as an industrial instrumentation technician just for THIS moment! Words that I know! ...aaaand it's past.
Use a gear or sprocket with several "firing pins" that key into the firing pin holes. The C axis tool would remain stationary, the sprocket would spin with the lathe and you would presumably not have to worry about stopping at all.
You'd still have to stop. For reloading :)
Spring loaded center punch. You would have to slow down a bit more, but the hammering effect would certainly fire the primers each time. Simply set the travel to a few thousandths past the break point on the center punch or make a rudimentary hammer and sear to come in and break at your desired LB point. Just a couple suggestions for reliability. US Navy Machinery Repairman 2nd class (8 year Veteran). Zip~
i had a thought just now, after a long day at the shop trying to replace a ball screw in a johnford lathe. i used my auto punch to mark a few things for orientation when it occurred to me; why dont you use an auto punch to try to set the primers off?
150 years from now there will be a fascinated Ian from Forgotten Weapons reviewing this piece in awe..
could have cheated by rigging 12 pins up to hit the primers all at the same time making it a multi-shot gun and since it's not a machine gun it's now youtube friendly
Legally, though, it's still a machine gun even if he did it your way.
@@theazuzhaters9988 No it wouldn’t. There’s a pistol made by some company that fires two rounds with one pull of the trigger. The two rounds fire from two different barrels. By atf definition, it’s not a machine gun. There are also double barrel, side by side, ar15s’. Those are not considered machine guns either. You can even fire two rounds out of a traditional coach shotgun at the same time as well. That’s not considered a machine gun either.
You will probably need a large primer to power all the pins reliably, so to say. Once saw a guy make himself a seven shot .22 caliber conversion for a flaregun, and the hammer on the thing just didn't have enough oomph for the plate with the blade pins to strike the rims hard enough.
@@DeoVindice_61-65 yes that's true but a couch gun double barrel has two triggers. Making it still one round per trigger pull. If you get multiple rounds per trigger pull it is by definition a machine gun.
@@PewLand not if it falls under volley fire exemption, if each round leaves a separate barrel at the same time then it’s not a machine gun.
Mark, your channel has become something of an adventure for me. I first came to your page from Scott @ Kentucky Ballitics thinking I would only learn about your firearms. It's almost like you're one of the civil engineers watch. Thanks for awesome videos, and hope for lots more to come.
A rotating gear, like a cowboy's spur might work and at higher speeds.
A leather punch could work like this.
G-Code .22!
I thought (before the end cap appeared) that you were gonna spin the lathe and bring a tool in to set off the blanks one after the other as fast as the lathe could spin, so it would sound like a machine gun
Like a knurling tool
What I like about what you do is the science of it
Grinding the punch to a .010” chisel tip would probably help with ignition
For what it's worth... We (U.S. Air Force) use electrically initiated primers in the 20mm and larger GAU cannons. You may already be aware, but I thought it worth mentioning in case it helps the fun continue.
Well, that was awesome. My thought was a spring-loaded 'auto-punch', which would make the machine's accel/deceleration irrelevant. Trying to figure out the plunge on that might be a good way to break a punch though...
Punch that works right from the get go? Easy. Make the endcap. Put thread on end cap. Turn a disc with an internal tread (to thread onto the endcap) and an external thread. Cut 12 grooves into it, creating 12 equal leaf springs. turn an outside nut that pretensions against the backstop and pulls back the leaf springs. Unscrew the cap slowly (or quickly if you want to). Wherever the thread leaves the last grove, a pin is released and fires a barrel. The full final revolution releases all 12 shots, neatly timed after one another.
It was cool to see Val hangin around! Hope she’s doing well!😁
Easy way, just tune your rapid position to compensate for your PID overshoot protection - tell the pin to go further than you "need" it to go and accept damage risk.
Or do it the right way and program the deceleration event into your striking event to get smooth and precise location control, but that takes effort.
The thinking man would just incorporate a fixed energy firing mechanism instead of a dowel, like a spring loaded punch, into the design, so your PID can have inherent slop.
That pin punch does compress a little in normal use.crap have to use calculus to find a ramp down speed to meet compression. Last question; does it only have to be successful more than once? If not ping the crap of firing pin socket maybe 2 thousands or so?
Wow...someone with an engineering degree that's actually programming and running a CNC lathe, and learning that their initial bullshit *never* works in the real world.
I wish ME's were required to actually do programming and running on CNC lathes & mills in order to get that precious degree.
lol.. It is a partnership - We design the parts, you get them to work... lol...
Kidding, anyone who has actually controlled real world things (especially scratch-built complex systems), knows it is an iterative process.
(Obviously the ME needs to be willing to contemplate that the machinist actually knows his stuff... The machinist or fabricators all know that the Engineer just has a fanciful CAD model he dreamt up.)
@@kadmow I can't even tell you how many times I had to make revisions to blueprints, and get them approved of course, in order for things to actually be correct. That includes custom designed tooling as well. 🤦♂️
Mark .... you're a Gun Nerd!
But, .... we love you, brother.
Thanks for the video.
ATF- ummm guys we need to ban this weapon of war, we don't need this guy taking this machine gun into an airport.
Machinist- really, it weights over 2300 lbs!!!
ATF- ya but if you were to attach an arm brace to it, that's where we'll have a problem, we will arrest you!!!!!!
How about a rotary firing pin , something like a stitch roller ( google it for reference). Syncing it up could be complicated but a ring gear on the perimeter of the .22 cylinder might be a good way to go about it.
Or just make a relief cut on the outermost perimeter of the .22 cylinder and just have a smooth roller bearing pressed against the cylinder to line up with the rim of the “blank”. If that works you could get some crazy rpm.
My “git r done” would’ve been a loose plate with a pin for each chamber and a single whack to pop all 12 at once
You could modify a centerpunch to do the job. Something spring-loaded, meant for marking spots on finish nails. They’re pen-shaped and sized.
Alternatively, just make the firing pin spring-loaded and add a ramp after each cartridge. As the firing pin reaches the Eid of the “Ramp” the spring makes it “Fall” against the next rim, making the entire assembly a lot simpler. Don’t even need to program it to push the pin in place besides the first time, the spring handles the rest.
markserbu, How would something like a "Starrett 18A Automatic Center Punch" work?
Unfortunately it's apparent the average layman is t able to appreciate just how crazy this is. Awesome job
Hey mark if you ever want a free hand I’d love to come be a grunt
You know, I thought the same thing. I just want in the firearms industry, firearms design, machining, etc. I had a job at a local firearms manufacture for all of 3 weeks as a shop hand before I called it quits. Polishing parts ALL day is not fun, especially when you're given denatured alcohol as a coolant and forbidden from wearing gloves (because you're sanding/polishing on a lathe). In a bigger shop you may work up to CNC machinist, which isn't too fun either in a production setting.
no dude mark serbu does not want a hsndjob . he's not gey.
@amorton93 Palmetto State armory is hiring in south carolina. They have been advertising for help on the radio alot recently
@amorton94 Palmetto State armory is hiring in south carolina. They have been advertising for help on the radio alot recently
@@freedomfan4272 Yeah, no thanks. The point of my comment was to illustrate how it may sound awesome to get in such a position but it's not all it's cracked up to be, especially in a production oriented setting.
i love the wild stuff you build
Spring-loaded center punch.., keep up the great work Mark
If you build the cap like a ball and socket, use a large diamiter tapered spring and pit pinns on the inside of the cap. You can use a contact roller on the outside and as it spinns it will ignite the primers
Interesting information Mark. Honestly could sit and listen to you talk technical all day.. Keep em coming!
ATF Agent: *What we have here? There's AOW, it's illegal, you're under arrest!*
If you take a presser washer pump apart you would see a rotational plate set at an angle and sitting on top of the plate are spring return pins, a mechanism like this would be suitable for your task, but you would have to clamp the gun chamber to the tool post and put the pump like setup in the lathes chock
i loved this video. perfect way to understand and how pid affects in my life.
This vid made me sub. 25+ years as a cnc engineer. Mainly turning. This could be improved upon loads.
Could sync a broching tool to the position axis be quicker. Even a max feed rate is better than rapid. Its does not allow for backlash error so rapid in then fast feed last .5/1mm. Or a numatic punch set for the sync of rotation. Anyway hope we see aother one like this awesome job.
The only thing better than your genius is a 50CalVal cameo.
Huh? Thanks for reminding me that I'm stupid. 👍👍👍
Love the PID explanation. Makes good sense. Yes, milling machines are designed to NOT impact anything.
How about a spring loaded center punch instead of the normal punch in the tool holder? That way it presses in, but reserves its "enginerdigy" until the last second, when it actually snaps and imposes the impact on the primer in a rather sudden fashion, instead of a leisurely pace. That's the main thing I see here, the punch isn't hitting the primers fast enough. You of anyone know about firing pin velocities.
The counterargument to that is that much like the solid punch, the spring loaded punch crushes the primer slowly. With the spring loaded one, before releasing energy, and by the time it actually snaps to crush the primer, well, it's already been slowly crushed and does nothing. There's no space to suddenly collapse the chemical compound together and detonate it.
Kind of like my heart in the dating world, but that's a universal struggle among aspiring engineers! LOL!
I might be an enginerding student (and maybe a good, maybe a bad one) at that, but impulse is the main thing comes to mind here. Force over time. A certain amount of force applied over a short amount of time might just do the trick! Crushing a primer slowly doesn't do squat, but suddenly hitting it with the same amount of kinetic energy, like a hammer, is what sets the chemical reaction off. The challenge I foresee here is this: the spring loaded punch does not apply enough force during the load up, prematurely crushing the primer, letting go too late and impacting the primer after it's been crushed with no result.
Either way, I think it would be a very interesting aspect of physics to explore! Looking forward to a follow up video!
It has been some time but I do know there is a code that will force the machine to actually hit the spot that it has been programmed to achieve.. in spite of the speed that is going it will still make sure that it makes that position before it moves on to the next. It is not absolute programming but it is another code. Like I said it has been some time since I've done this period but back in the day I was taught by a very smart individual who work for Haas. I think his name was Marshall. when it comes to CNC Machining he is worth his weight in gold.
Guns use hammers and strikers. You need to replicate that striker action. Make the punch spring-loaded and a mechanism resets it for the next chamber. Consider adding a ramp on the left of the cylinder bore and a spring-loaded punch. As the cylinder rotates, it raises the punch and when a new chamber is presented it lunges forward and strikes the rim. Speed is only limited by the spring strength relative to the mass of the punch. It may be necessary to recess the cartridge chamber more to get sufficient power from the striker.
Use a similar mechanism as is used in a spring-loaded center punch. While the tool is decelerating the firing pin should still be impacting the casing with a significant amount of force.
I built a 10 barrel .22 cal short, Gatling gun many years ago. It was an exercise in frustration. Rim fire ammo just isn't as reliable as a center fire. There were other complications with making the bolts with the F pin off set and the way the extractor was designed cause failure blow outs of the cartridges occasionally. So the next one I build will be in .32 or 9mm
Awesome video as always. Hearing you say PID Controller definitely gave me PTSD 😂
Add a ring of spring steel with "firing pins" attached to little arms for each chamber. Let CNC pick and release each firing pin. OR attach a small L shaped "trigger" to each pin. The punch moves in front of first trigger. Head rotates causing pin lift and fire. Would sound like a real machine gun. But operates more like old west gunslinger holding trigger while slapping back the hammer with the off hand. Hardest part would be getting the right spring weight.
G8 p1 and G8 po is what I use on H Mills..its called look ahead on and look ahead off..basically it slows down on sharp movements..
Make a punch backed up by some belleville washers. Then you can rapid to a point behind the primer, and the washers will just compress. So long as they're stiff enough to still crush the rim but not overload the axis, you're good to go (and I'm sure it'd take a LOT to overload the axis).
It may have already been suggested in the comments, but you can try one of those percussive center punches that self punch when the tip has a bit of pressure applied to them so even at any speed so ling as the insert depth meets the minimum retraction for the center punch to engage you will get the impact force required to set off the primers.
Congrats on being added to every government watch list there is in one video! thats some efficient impressive shit there
I will start engineering school soon! I have a very hard path ahead of me and trust me this type of content is going to be very helpful in learning basic engineering principals!
Dude if he tries to file this as a machine gun and they reject it, that opens up discussion to whether or not miniguns are machine guns
Awesome blank firing device!