Cutting AMD Coolers Open & Flat vs. Vertical CPU Cooler Benchmarks
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 24 พ.ค. 2024
- In this video, we dive deep on how heatpipes work, gravity vs. capillary action for CPU coolers (test bench flat vs. vertical and upside-down).
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Article: We are publishing the article on a ~1 day delay to allow the video to breathe first. In the meantime, some scientific sources are below. Our previous heatpipe orientation article for Zen 2 chiplets is live, though, and you can find that video here: • AMD Ryzen Heatpipe Ori...
In this video, we're deep-diving on several important factors of how heatpipes work. For years, viewers have asked us if CPU cooler orientation matters, typically wondering whether a flat test bench was representative of a standard "vertical" orientation (e.g. in a PC case), often referencing gravity, despite the fact that capillary action can work in opposition to gravity. Some scientific research has shown, as noted in the video, that gravity and orientation or angle of heatpipes can affect performance, but that research is in use cases and deployments outside of computer hardware. We'll walk through heatpipe manufacturing, research from other industries (like aeronautics and space), internals and cross-sections of heatpipes, and more. This features the AMD Wraith stock cooler, Deepcool GamerStorm Assassin III cooler, and Noctua NH-D15 (with internals of a Thermaltake Contac 12).
Watch our video on how copper heatpipes are made: • How Copper Heatpipes A...
Find the Noctua NH-D15 on Amazon: geni.us/3lgHOO0
And the Deepcool Assassin III on Amazon (but maybe wait for a follow-up): geni.us/tCjPT
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Additional scientific papers and sources that you may find interesting:
- www.enertron-inc.com/products...
- www.qats.com/cms/wp-content/u...
- www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/st...
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Host, Editorial, Testing: steve Burke
Editorial, Testing: Jake Henderson
Video: Keegan Gallick, Andrew Coleman - เกม
Find our video on how heatpipes are made here: th-cam.com/video/AD-4WKwCAfE/w-d-xo.html
We did a different video on the distantly related topic of heatpipe orientation on Zen 2 chiplets: th-cam.com/video/O1WGlPrH4IU/w-d-xo.html
What is the minimum temp in celsius that a heatpipe is effective? For example, If I pull cold arctic winter air through the cooler, at what temp does the benifit stop? (so to say. excuse my grammar. Aije ämm fråm Sviiidänn 🇸🇪)
Glad to see you tried a direct contact heat pipe cooler. I can't even imagine how much work went into this! Thank you for all you do. One thing that still makes me wonder is if the orientation of direct contact heat pipes matter is: if the heatpipes are lined up parallel or perpendicular with die would that change performance? I remember you mentioning in the previous video that it shouldn't matter due to the IHS and the coldplate, but in this instance there would be no coldplate. (I think testing with a non-soldered vs soldered chip would bring different results due to the thermal transfer properties from both.
(for something with multiple chiplets this might not matter much if all, and the same could be said for single chiplet style too) but I'm thinking more specifically of intel's more "traditional", if you will,(or more common) single chiplet like dies. Perhaps it's not worth the time to consider, but if it is it would make for another very interesting and very educational video. (Although given your results thus far... The likeliness of any meaningful change is quite slim to non-existent). Just a thought and thank you again for all your hard work!!
Have a happy new years!
@@newgame2day I'd like to see LTT try something like this. *Sarcastic* (not to bash on LTT, because that are great! But I don't think they would go nearly as in depth or even take something like this on. Although they have done some tests(like their positive/negative/neutral air pressure test) that are pretty interesting, I just don't believe their audience would appreciate, or care as much about something like this... I could be wrong, and would love to see it happen, but for a channel that big, and with so many other things going on, I just don't foresee them doing this topic... But I guess that's part of the charm that is Gamers Nexus they are willing to cater more to deep dive in odd topics such as *heat pipe orientation*) :)
I will say, the results are somewhat counterintuitive, especially if you ever actually tried that wicking experiment. wicking from one cup to another is so incredibly slow, it is surprising wicking alone can actually move enough coolant.
Great vid Steve and crew. B)
Sc0ttishGamer88 Sublimation only works so long as you have enough coolant to Subliment for the duration of the mission. Craft like New Horizons and SOHO are a tad beyond that mission time capacity.
The conclusion might seem boring, but thank you for actually taking the time to test this as thoroughly as possible.
Or could have just looked at a heat transfer textbook...
@@ramheyhey Cool story. We'll just say that for any questions our viewers have: "Why don't you just read a book?" That's super helpful, right? All data that ever needs to exist to answer questions must already exist, so there's no point to contributing more.
@@ramheyhey Just read the Bible smh. It starts with thermodynamics in first Genesis.
@@GamersNexus Herein lies the often overlooked fact that just having knowledge and being able to parse it and apply it are two wildly different things!
@@florianl.2441 The bible is the flat earther's user manual to all their scientism questions... 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
And it's actually true. :|
Your strictly methodical approach in tests like this is highly appreciated. When ever watching such videos from you one can take the result and use it for own builds without questioning their solidity. This is a big help as certain variables just can be put aside and focusing on the relevant parameters of the build makes work faster and leads to better results within a given time. Thanks for your great work on such basics!
After watching a 30 minute video of course. Would love GN:TL;DW
The best reason why people should be a patreon. I could not find anything better then GN and decided to support them for 5$/month. I want to see more of detailed content after all.
Steve: *opens his mouth*
Steve's editor: *B ROLL*
Steve: We don't have the budget to go to space
Linus: We're going to space! Right after this sponsorship. Square space is a quick and easy way...
@@lucass.l.jacobsen2088 Linus Media Group Martian Campus opening 2049.
@@lucass.l.jacobsen2088 I read that in his voice. lol.
@@lucass.l.jacobsen2088This just in: Linus Sebastian drops International Space Station. Out of orbit.
deepcool when coming up with new heat pipe "technology": ah yes the pipe is made of pipe
Naaah
They're made of "tubing"
You're welcome
deepcools pipes are filled with bullshit for improved cooling
@@CrusadesOClock and it works :D
@@CrusadesOClock "It just works!"
@@CrusadesOClock that explains why my shit floats so quickly...
24:05 There are two kinds of people. The first can extrapolate from insufficient data.
WHAT DO THE SECOND DO?
@@GamersNexus WE NEED AN ANSWER
This comment is so clever it bothers me
You win the internet today
@@euly Seriously!
I was always amazed how low the temps in these tests are. I finally realized those are "above ambient" so the actual numbers are like 20°C higher.
The copper powder is important because it serves as a threatening reminder to the heat pipe tube of what it will be made into if it doesn't behave and transfer heat well. This fear is what makes them so good at transferring thermal energy.
Steve, you NEVER fail to amaze me with the absolute thoroughness of your tests
Come on guys we need to get Steve an RGB lit hot air balloon that has enough high airflow fans to send him and his crew to outer space..... we can do it!
I am concerned about the amount of RGB needed to accomplish that.
@@twistednemo prolly pretty close to what your average 12 year old PC gamer has ;)
just load it up with Xeons that'll get him to mars
Hetznaz that can get you to Mars.
Lol
What an amazing explanation, really deep and thorough on how the pipes work, can't really find anything like this anywhere else, as well as the testing. You've outdone just about everyother cooler testing I've ever seen, thanks
Who wants Steve to go to space just to see his fabulous hair in it's full glory
It would probably strangle him.
I'm not sure we deserve this
They'd probably make him tie it up, just because it otherwise might take over the cabin, and fly them into a giant graphite-like monolith.
"What are you doing, Steve?"
Hi Everyone,
This is the thing:
We initially used the two processes of sintered and grooved in our lab, but we found that the performance dispersion is relatively large after massive performance testings.
So in order to ensure the stock that are all with stable high performance, we adjusted the sintered process with some internal packing powder, vacuum and other parameters, to achieve the same high performance
that we targeted for the product, and maintain the stability of each product that we ship to end-users.
So every piece of the ASSASSIN III in the market is just with sintered heatpipes.
We are terribly sorry for the confusion that we made to our users, thank you!
- DeepCool
All I can think while watching this video is: "I need a Dremel"
You do. They are the small scale machining equivalent of duct tape.
@@desmofan1864 Yeah! They are just so useful.
Same
Same
Dremel has kind of degraded in quality over the last few years, I would suggest proxxon rotary tools for much better precision instead
Every time I click any GN video I know I'm going to get more detailed information than I'll ever need... I love it! It saves me the hassle of looking for other videos to fill in the gaps. GN leaves no gaps.
Ever since I watched the Stadia controller video I want a new side channel: "Steve dremels things"
Omg, sooo much work involved in making this, thank you Steve and co. Happy New Year 2020!
Respect! Thanks to GN for taking the time to test this and presenting the results. I really appreciate your effort to keep us informed! Happy New Year to everybody@GN! 🥂😎
This was a really enjoyable episode for me! Very interesting and really happy to see that your methodology was so meticulous
I always love the idea of having the motherboard facing the floor, natural protection against water leaking given the low pressure tubes hold and also easy to spot when they do.
Just need to have the water reserve mounted on top of all components (no issue).
I always amazes me how much work you guys put in to answer seemingly trivial questions to a very high degree of certainty in a very controlled and sophisticated work environment. Videos like this are a very valuable resource for all of us and I really appreciate what you guys are doing. So sincerely from the bottom of my heart - thank you GN!
Wow! Excellent video. I'm certain alot if hours of research and testing was done. Very well explained and presented. Thanks for this!
Thank you Steve! - i asked about this a year or two ago and you answered it directly during an "ASK GN". Was great to see it revisited and fully investigated. curiosity settled for good. (and you were bang on the money back then too)
Nice change of pace. Found this topic interesting. Thank you got the effort and presentation.
Thanks. I really appreciate the time and trouble you go to in testing, evaluating then sharing your methodology and conclusions. IMO you are more detailed and rigorous in testing than any other TH-cam presenter, speaking about PC hardware engineering, that I have encountered. This is why I subscribed some time ago. I feel I learn more with your channel than others - even if the conclusions are often similar. At least I think I now understand more about the reasons why.
That said (and this is more a reflection on me) at times I find it hard to concentrate and have a tendency to 'drift off'. Some of your videos are thus great for getting to sleep (sorry, I really don't meant to be rude). When I'm engaged with the topic or review then typically I find a need to pause your videos to read and assimilate your charts and/or replay to understand the finer points, so that I can apply to my own situation. But overall, cudos for being the best at doing thorough technical reviews.
In-depth science videos like this are the reason I contribute on Patreon. No one else does anything like this and I'm happy to see it.
I found this video only now after all these years! Great content and you should consider wearing a shirt with "I 🖤 scientific method"!
This video should be linked from the description of every heat pipe cooler you test!
Yay! Thank you for the error bars! They're missing in almost everyone else's videos and they're so important.
For someone that Brazes Copper and Aluminium for Transformer Coils for the last 40 Years Capillary action is a way of life! Considering how well copper transfers heat on it's own, I'm surprised that there is a need for the heat pipes to have such an elaborate design needing copper powder, a drop of water and then vacuum sealed to assist in the Capillary action! I honestly didn't know this!! Learn something new everyday! Thanks Steve!
Thank you for the thoroughness of your tests.
Your Testing methods are flawless
Love the info.
While I had a basic understanding of heat pipes, in the end, I just resorted to classifying it as magic.
This helped clear some of the misconceptions. Thank you for the video! :)
Was always was a little curious on this - good to see hard data on it.
the only reviewers in youtube that sites actual research papers, as a researcher I appreciate.
Very well done! I appreciate your testing methodology.
Excellent video, no one else goes this in-depth. I've been really pleased with the giant noctua TR cooler, definitely not going back to AIO water, they just don't hold consistent temps for 8+ hour renders.
love that phrase "excursion from the mean". y'all's writing is top notch
Many thanks for DETAILED ANALYSIS!
Great video Steve! Also, love the rgb ram wreath on the wall. So festive. Your videos are like a Futurama episode. You notice more things the more you watch.
That was probably the most interesting no result video I've seen... Thanks!
top notch testing as always. Thank you!
Good work!!
The good thing about the cooler box or similar is that it helps to cool the vrm
Fantastic test! Been wondering about this for a while :)
Always appreciative to hear it down to a literal science
Very interesting. Thanks a lot for the coverage!
alot of hard work in this video keep it up guys!
My soul hurt a little, when you were sawing off heat pipes from beautiful Noctuas. I have nh-d15 se-am4 , it's such a beauty...monstrous heavy beauty..
You don't need to go to space Steve, your content is already out of this world!
Thanks for taking the tests so seriously :)
Thank you for doing this! It was one question that always bugged me.
I appreciate the research, the methodology and how you provided your conclusions. Yay science!
AWESOME DETAIL! Thank you!!!
wow great video i have always thinked about does orientation matter in coolers thanks
Excellent test. Very informative.
Watching this at 4:17 AM (Brazilian time) because GN's content always worth my sleeping time.
Wow I'm super impressed that you guys could reassemble the heat pipes and THEN test with good results. That takes some skill to do!
Good content GN! (oh and I'm joking btw wheres sarcasm font when you need it?)
Tbh, I don’t care about how boring or flashy a video is, all I care about is the information and that’s what Steve does really well
Was a good topic to investigate and good report 👍
Great vid, super interesting info. Thanks a bunch.
I like the information about the science of Heat pipe design. Thanks.
You could use a clamp style Mini Pipe Cutter to cut those pipes without evaporating the insides. They sell them right where you buy copper pipes for your house in the hardware store. Some are large but you can get one that is only a couple inches in size for the smaller pipes like Brake Lines
That amination you guys did was great
glad you guys took DTF into consideration
That's some seriously good Dremeling there. Whenever I try to use the cutoff wheel on a round surface, it bounces like a bronco rider.
One day you'll surprise us Steve, by proving some weird theory is actually based in fact.
I love watching you science the shit out of PC hardware. You have a keen eye for what to control...better than some engineers I work with.
The reason there was no difference is that even in upside-down orientation, you didn't reach the heat transfer limit of the heatpipes. If you further increase the wattage, you'll see a sudden breakpoint, which depends on orientation.
This does not matter for computer-end-users though, because they will never reach those wattages and even if we're talking about overclocking, it doesn't make sense, because the condenser on the cooler is too small anyway.
You are Hardware MASTER,
Answers on EVERY QUESTION
Could you please do one more additional test with the heatpipes cut open on the ends? It would be interesting to see how much delta in performance if any there would be once the active cooling solution evaporated. Thanks, and keep up the good work guys.
Excellent work!
this is great video
thx for uploading witht decent info around it
I love how informayive this channel is
I appreciate Steve talking at 1.5-2.0x speed. I don't have time to watch this at normal human speed. Thank you fellow earthling.
Great informative content!
I just put in my thermalright axp-100, and even though I was very dubious of it, seeing the noctua docs I made sure to not have the pipes pointing down. Thanks for dispelling my ignorance, and maybe ask for comment from noctua too?
CFD/CHT Software like ANSYS FLUENT and Star-CCM+ can model the heat transfer performances of different design orientation. One can simulate each orientation seperately or using parametric modeling to use built-in optimization software such as Design Manager in SCCM+ which would give more than one possible solution for optimizing cooling solution.
Send GN to space!!!
Everyone is trying to get rid of us!
Someone get Space-x on the phone!
Patreon funding goal level 1: blast off into space.
Patreon funding goal level 2: muffin button
I'm going to spam Elon.
@@GamersNexus Well DeepCool probably want to after getting caught falsely advertising their solution.
So thats why Patrick had bandaid on his finger in Coolant flush video. Nice pen holder and christmas light back there :D
Hey thanks again for doing these awesome and incredibly thorough vids. Do you know if any other liquids have been used other then water? Did you ever hear back from Deep Cool about your observations of the missing interior grooves? Did they just not expect anyone to open one and call them about their fib?
I'm watching this ON EARTH. Thank God!
FINALLY a topic about how gravity affects heatpipe performance based on orientation. I've always thought of this ever since the heatpipe trend began more than 10 years ago!
Null results are still useful - Glad you're putting in work!
Great stuff. Keep it up.
Thank you for once again striving to teach science literacy by providing in-depth answers to questions like this one!
This is actually particularly interesting for the Phanteks Evolv X and other cases like that where you may actually have a cooler completely upside down with the cpu on top.
I can't wait for deepcool's explanation that they are "Microvanes" skived below visual resolution
Interesting to know heat pipes go back to the 1960s or longer. I had never heard of them until 2007 when I got my first CPU cooler with heat pipes. Now tower coolers are common but back then it was the first I had seen with most coolers before then being small and horizontal.
Glad to know angle doesn't affect these coolers.
From what I've read orientation angle affects the maximum heat transfer ability, so if they only had a few heat pipes and a high heat load the evaporator might start drying out. Luckily a lot of coolers have 4-6 pipes (U shaped ones count double), 6MM ones being good for about 45W each, when not fighting gravity.
It means the cooler with 8 pipes, each is at only 1/3 of its maximum heat transfer. (130W/8=16W each)
Great video, not very exciting but is just the stuff that only you guys can do!!
thanks for testing upside down, that's the orientation my cpu heatsink is in!
I see.. a 30 minute video to tell us it doesn't matter, yet I still learned a lot
Testing the small insignificant variables for a thing like CPU Cooler is what I usually choose from a product regardless of brand.
It is also important to note that due to capillary action with regard to the average internal diameter of this sort of heat pipe, keeping in mind how thermal transfer and phase changes work, angle simply will not matter at all from a law of physics standpoint.
GN might be the only place ever in my entire life that makes me say "Yes!" when I hear "now let's get into graphs" .😁
You should run a test where you perforate a heat pipe and let the internal liquid evaporate out. Do this to see what the phase change/evaporation cooling effect is vs conductivity of the copper pipe @ those temperatures. Would be an interesting test I think also. Great Videos
Thanks, I was worrying about this.
Loved the great close up shots in this video. Have you done any studies regarding CPU coolers and other mother board components? Can we take the view that CPU coolers are designed to cool CPUs and any cooling of other motherboard components is insignificant in most situations?
Anecdotally, I tested this on my previous laptop. I has been long enough ago that I can't recall all the details, but I tested it multiple times in all six orientations, and all but one worked equally well. However, that last one orientation was not just outside of error, but the difference was extreme; almost all cooling performance was gone and the CPU had to throttle within seconds of me putting it under load. I don't recall exactly what orientation it was, but the heat-pipe in the laptop was mostly linear, and I'm fairly sure it was one of the two orientations in which the heat-pipe itself was vertical.
I observed very similar behaviour in Clevo W230SS - it was mostly ,but if you raised back of laptop so it makes about 45 degrees or higher, pufff, whole cooling is gone and even modest CPU activity was leading to 90 C. AFAIR I did find similar complaints for W230S* family in couple forums.
Time to strap a thermosyphon heatpipe to a CPU. Since they aren't having any sintered material or groves. They are though more intended to provide cooling in only one orientation.
Commonly used for keeping permafrost frozen in areas where there is a source of heat, like the Alaskan oil pipeline.
But one shouldn't underestimate the effectiveness of water creeping over a surface towards dryer areas. And one should also not underestimate the rather insane amount of energy needed to heat and boil water....
Though, one thing that has long poked my curiosity is heatpipe saturation. Since the vacuum inside a heat pipe lowers the boiling point of the water inside it, so if the cold side were to get heated above that temperature, the performance of the heatpipe should logically diminish.
So what temperature does different heatpipes/coolers saturate at?
Not saying that testing this would be easy. Though, a thermal chamber kept at a fixed temperature and slowly dialing it up and watching the delta temperature between the CPU and the air in the chamber should be somewhat informative. Though, I would skip using a CPU and just use a large resistor and a K-type thermocouple to read its temperature. Since then one can always apply a constant amount of power for one to keep cool. Though, a constant air speed would also be needed.
If i got you right, and this could to a few handful of customers, be a real problem, it should be at about 80-120c become a problem. It's the only real flaw with this video but could be avoided entirely by the customer if they also keep their rig NOT upside down as far as i can remember. I was looking at max temperature cooling notes for heat pipes over a large chunk of last year and this year. Some of the whitepapers and notes detailed that it's often a risk to stop the entire liquid functionality of dragging heat away if you overstep the designated max temperature. Basically, GN never tested a CPU that is running hot enough for long to realize this environment. So for all normal users, it's not relevant. But to the few that got a bad case, with an Intel CPU going hot hot hot at it!.... You are in rare cases getting close to this limit and i'd imagine that the cooler would become a lot worse suddenly at above 100c and just make the cpu choke and undervolt/clock as we know they do. But again that's why your test would make more sense for that sort of test. And don't even try to ask me about those pictures, i went trough so much random stuff it wasn't even funny.
@@CYellowan Though, you would also need an abhorrently poorly ventilated case for the heatpipes to saturate. After all, we need the whole heatpipe to be warm enough for the water inside to not be liquid, even on the cold side.
But that is where this actually gets interesting. A heatsink with little surface area on the cold side would have a greater delta C/W compared to a heat sink with more surface area. (Though, oversimplifying here.)
So theoretically we could heat the warm side of a heat sink sufficiently for its heat pipes to force the cold side to a temperature that is above the condensing point of the heatpipe.
Though practically, a heatpipe has rather abhorrent thermal conduction by itself. Ie without any water inside it. So to get enough heat to flow through a saturated heat pipe to keep the cold side that warm would likely require the warm side to be fairly ridiculously warm. (But I haven't tested.)
But, as we approach this edge case, then our thermal performance would start to deteriorate. Ie, for every 1 watt added, we would see a progressively larger amount of delta C added for this additional power, at steady state power draw, there is thermal mass after all...
Though, there is also the other side of heatpipes.
Since a heatpipe gets its performance from boiling water, then we need to reach that temperature for it to have its impressive thermal conduction. So when a CPU idles at low power, then it will still be at a fairly decent temperature, and as it ramps towards higher power draw, we shouldn't expect any major increase in temperature.
Except, we have multiple thermal junctions, and material for the heat to flow through, and water doesn't boil at a fixed temperature, but rather starts simmering away already at lower temperatures...
So the graph would likely be smoothed out a fair bit.
Though, likely having a y=tan(x) shape to its delta-C/power graph. (Power on the x axis, temperature on the y.) Though, the thing would likely have offsets in both X and Y, and have a different scale. Exact location and values of cores dependent on the specifications of the heatpipe.
But this is just rough back of the envelope dead reckoning.
Though, in the end, the slope of the middle section of the graph and the two points at which it gets steeper could logically vary from one heatsink to another.
So the question then quickly becomes, how would one test these heat sinks?
I myself would graph their thermal performance. But since the thermal performance is 3 dimensional. (warm side temp, cold side temp, and power. If we have fixed air speed... So that is a 4th dimension to our graph...) Then this gets a bit hard to just show in a video...
> Since the vacuum inside a heat pipe lowers the boiling point of the water inside it, so if the cold side were to get heated above that temperature, the performance of the heatpipe should logically diminish.
Heating increases the pressure inside the heat pipe. If the manufacturer did a good job removing air from the pipe, the boiling point of the water will always be close to the current operating temperature. There are physical limits but they're quite broad.
At low temperature, the coolant can freeze at the condenser. This happens below the "triple point temperature," 0.01 C for water. From what I understand this is rarely a problem for electronics because even if you start your electronics in a very cold environment (-40 C), by the time you need phase change cooling, enough heat will be conducted through the copper to melt the water. This effect does mean that you can't expect heat-pipes to work effectively with liquid nitrogen.
At high temperature, the phase-change effect slowly becomes weaker. It disappears at or beyond the critical point: 374 C for water and about 3200 PSI.
I found some information from manufacturer ACT. They say their water-cooled pipes work well between 60C and 200C. The ideal temperature depends on the amount of adverse height, it's about 150C for a level heatpipe. It's an interesting graph. Heatpipe capacity approximately doubles between 30C and 90C, and it falls off even faster if you try to go below room temperature.
www.1-act.com/water-heat-pipe-parameters-and-limitations/#operatingtemperature
@@jordanrodrigues8265 Yes, a temperature increase would mean more of the water is a gas, and therefor increase the pressure, that would in turn increase the boiling point a bit.
After all, it is a fairly small enclosed space.
Though, it is also not much water in it.
But having just finished writing my other book of a comment, I can see that the link you provided has a graph showing a very similar thermal behavior to what I already outlined. Though, expressed differently.
The one in the link has power on the Y axis, while my proposed graph would have delta C. But in the end, it is the same thing, seen from different sides. Like frame times and FPS...
You're like the Axl Rose of tech man god I love your content!