S2000-R5-Rally2 to be the main class idea has been discussed for 15 years now. The correct move would be Rally2+. Bit bigger restrictor, bit more aero, bit more safety. Another issue is that only manufacturers can enter cars right now. It should be open to anyone that can build a regulation compliant car, like the Rally Raid T1 class.
Points idea: No points. Combine the total time of a driver for every rally and work out who completed the entire championship the fastest, obviously with penalty time added for DNFs and stuff
On a cost standpoint, switching from Rally1 to Rally2 actually makes sense. I feel like Rally2 is where the money's at in terms of manufacturer participation, especially with lower cost than Rally1, not to mention a chance to attract more new manufacturers interested in.
to add to the new cars is what Sainz said in an interview: The cars have to be such that it allows them to race in national championships, so that they can be bought and sold. Rally2 does that. Plus they're not the same car with different lights like Rally1... Edit: The hybrid is a stop-gap to delay the dependance on fossil fuels. Wouldn't mind if they just went with an alternative to it and run with it, get ahead of the streets again, like motorsports should.
The main issues with rallying, at the high level are external. Rally 1 was used to lure manufacturers because of the space frame and the hybrid, and this is correct. Its the manufacturers which dont want to participate, we have seen this in many series, where rules where made based on manufacturer imput to cater for their requirements, only for them to have no interest in spending the money. Next, you cannot understate the damage the long periods of dominance by the sebs have done to the product in the short term. The records are forever skewed, by men who competed in the least competitive points of the WRC in the regulation rally era. For me the biggest problem that needs addressing is the rally itself. There is no variety, and no adventure. Rallying has never been about close finishing or nail biting action but about variety in the rallies and the results. Its amazing to habe the safari back but its far too short. Needs to be 2 stages per loops like 50 to 80 km ea. There is no reason to have the Latvia, when we have corse. Bring back the point to point for some rallies so the corse round island, the monte is the end and it starts somewhere in the alps, Nairobi - Mombassa, ohhhhh please .... if there is any change, Hong Kong beijing. Rallying is about the adventure. The challenge is to finsh and experience as much of the culture as possible. On that note, why are there not 2 rounds in asia, south America etc? The FIA has regional pro championships on each continent. There should be rallies in tropical south east Asia, like Indonesia, Thailand, India, maybe Brazil, what about the desert, UAE or something. Middle East and SE asia are huge rally markets, like what dorna did moving a lot of there races to the motorcycle marlet, rallying needs to chase the hatchback markets, where traditional circuits are not properly developed. This then opens the door for manufacturers like TATA, lynk and co or whoever for example, to look into. Rallying has always been the entry point for plucky foreign manufacturers, we saw it in the 70s with the Italians, the 90 with the Japanese, the 10s with the koreans, all at the time considered to be cheap junk, used the sprot to build a brand or dependability and respect. But the WRC doesnt touch these regions even of there has been successful intercontinental rallies there for years. The point seemed really dumb on paper, but i remember the APRC, the ARC, etc have always awarded points at the end of each leg and the rally win was just a bonus. Why not just give points at rhe end of the leg and a bonus for winning the rally overall, maybe some points for who won the most stages, etc.
First of all stop calling the 2011-2016 WRC cars S2000. S2000 was a naturally aspirated class that was later replaced by the R5 which is currently Rally2. Also the logic for removing the top tier class is like saying lets remove F1 cars and make everyone drive F2 cars. Brilliant m8 brilliant
well, once it's clear a category is not working, I don't see how downgrading is bad. It makes for a smooth transition, it livens up the championship and even can be something current drivers already know a bit. It worked well when Group B died. Group A and early WRC days were a second golden era for the sport and it came from a downgrade from top tier...
@@toguapotobo Well i don't think a hybrid drive is a solution at all. The cars already run on synthetic fuel so why bother weighing the car down with expensive and veery bursty solution. I wouldn't mind them using a Rally2 car as a base but do allow the manufacturer to upgrade it quite extensively. I ultimately think the biggest issue of WRC currently is the lack of even decent drivers. All you get now is 1-3 fast but unreliable drivers (Neuville, Evans, Tanak) and a bunch of filler (fourmaux, munster, katsuta, sordo, mikellsen), while the best remaining drivers (Ogier, Rovanpera) aren't on competing against each other terms because they dont even go a full season anymore....
Actually I 100% agree with him on making Rally2 the top class. Theres a proposal on the table to make Rally2 the top class, BUT something he didnt mention in the video is that those new WORLD RALLY CARS(dont know why he was calling them S2K) would be beefed up Rally2's, more power, aero and better everything in general. Your comparsion to formula 1 makes absolutely no sense, its like comparing apples to oranges. Rallying is in a much different situation. Manufacturers and sponsors are very interested and are invensting loads of money into F1 cus it atracts the most eyeballs. WRC on the other hand has a much reduced audience and manufacturer interest is basically non existent, so if theres not as much people watching, theres not as much money going around therefore YOU CANT HAVE CARS THIS EXPENSIVE. God I feel stupid having to explain something that simple
1. "Rally2 cars are as fast as WRC cars of the 00's" --> true, but they are not as spectacular because the speed has increased through better suspension and tyres, not power 2. "Just two manufacturer cars" --> why? It will lead into less top cars, less drivers getting paid 3. "More rallies" --> it will be more expensive, no matter what cars they are running 4. "Bring back Wales Rally GB/RAC" --> it's not up to FIA or Promoter. It's up to Wales/UK that they cannot arrange it. 5. "Bring back qualifying" --> this would just make sure Ogier/Neuville/Tänak/Rovanperä wins absolutely every stage in every rally 6. "Tyre change before Power Stage" --> one team didn't want this. But like above, this would mostly benefit the fastest drivers. 7. "Day points" --> well isn't that more complicated? I would give 25 points for win like before, but change power stage for full Sunday points.
Personally I’d ditch the Rally 1 Regs for the Rally 2 regs but have it as Rally 2+ sort of thing where there’s a bit more aero on the car and it’s a bit more powerful just to bridge the gap between WRC and WRC2. But have the package as an option that a privateer can buy. Then with it running on sustainable fuel like it is now I’d look at the tv coverage it’s not good. The rally tv app is horrible and clunky to use on a phone. You could have both tv coverage and the app where you have a live tv stage on normal television and keep the rest on the app so people are more likely to subscribe to it to keep the revenue flowing. I’d keep the three car teams that they have for a while until there is enough manufacturers in the sport but you have to choose two drivers which can score the team points.
Yeah that's the same what I was thinking as well. Maybe have a similar wing to the pre-2016 1.6 regulations and use the same engine regulations as they have now (without the hybrid system).
I agree with rally2 cars to replace rally1. It's a popular, cost effective and has more of a 'win on sunday, sell on monday' potential over the rally1 class. However I'd suggest hydrogen technology (or some sort of low cost eco friendly fuel) over hybrids down the line. About points scoring for teams/manufacturers, I have no problem with the current system, but as a alternative I would do two drivers per team/manufacturer will be eligible as well, however instead of teams choosing the eligible drivers, like in the past, the two drivers eligible will be two best placed drivers in the rally, since I think that will make teams/manufacturers more involved by bringing more than two cars. I completely agree with 14-16 rallies per season and bringing back Wales and rallies in Oceania (or other classic venues). I don't agree with the qualifying stage. I find it redundant. They can use shakedown stage for it if they would go for this rule imo. My suggestion is the drivers order being determined by the results at the end of the day, just like in the 2000's, meaning the best drivers on day one are road sweepers on day two etc. Sure it punishes the drivers which are leading, but I always liked the parity and the fact the slower cars had easier chance to catch up. Alternatively they can use coin flip system, which was used in world rallycross championship in 2019 to determine whether the drivers order would be flipped in favor of the leading drivers or the strugglers. I'm split about ability to change tyres for power stage. I see where you are coming from, It's not really power if they have to save tyres on it. But I'll keep the way wrc uses right now, again in regards of cost and because it brings the extra tactic of whether saving the tyres for power stage or pushing them throughout the day, even if the tyres will suffer on the power stage. Maybe renaming power stage would help that, though I have no idea on how to rename it. And obviously bring back normal points scoring system, more specifically the mid to late 2000's (10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1) and maybe adjust it for top ten points scoring (something like 15, 12, 10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1). In my opinion that would be happy medium between domination and consistent points scoring. As for bonus points, I'd bring back first version of power stage points scoring (3, 2, 1) and extra point for winner of the stage (asside from power stage), similarly to wrc3.
The hybrid system just needs to be cheaper and more sustainable cause the hybrid stuff is cool. The big thing is Sodium Ion batteries (cheaper and more sustainable than lithium just not as powerful but they aren't lame tho) I believe VW's EVs are going to be run on these batteries. Would love a US and/or Canadian rally as well. That's all the info I can provide and if I am wrong let me know lol. They could make a side championship for EV Rally similar to the WRX having stuff like RX2 and RX2e championships. Just because it's inevitable but also seeing something like the Hoonigan E-Tron being the EV Quattro. it could be an innovation series, not a top-level championship to encourage RnD and private conversion entrees of gas cars as well. These are ideas but at this point, the Rally2 idea makes a ton of sense.
Your points system aint bad BUT theres one which I think is actually better and that is a suggestion Jari Matti Latvala made. The FIAs idea with this points system is to avoid Sunday driving, drivers cruising to the power stage, so, what Jari Matti suggested is very simple, award bonus points for stage wins on Sunday
IMO adding aero bits to the existing Rally2 cars is not needed as the Rally2 cars are good as they are without the need to charge customers premium for an aero kit that would be used maybe in 14 rallies per year, whereas a vanilla Rally2 car can be used in national or regional competitions without any modifications. And I know this will sound will sound controversial, but maybe it is time for the WRC to adopt cutomer racing model - with mainly independent teams and manufacturers offering technical support to their customers. The issue with this idea is the WRC will stop being the World Rally Championship and 50+ year history will be waived goodbye. There are rules at what can be called a 'championship' by the FIA and revolves around manufacturer infolvement - if a series doesn't have at least 3 manufacturer teams in it, it ceases being a 'championship'. Kinda similar thing happened when the World Touring Car Championship became WTCR - it became FIA World Touring Car Cup following the adoption of the TCR regulations which replaced the unpoular TC1 regulations (kinda a similar story to Rally1). The thing is that WTCC didn't had the long and established history of WRC - it was relaunched in 2005 after a one-and-done Group A season in 1987, so it wasn't a huge loss. And if WRC goes down the customer route, I'd take the idea up the notch and have the calendar consist of events from the regional calendars - ERC, MERC, ARC, APRC, CODASUR and NCAM. Kinda what TCR World Tour (the spiritual successor of WTCR) is employing right now with the calendar consisting of rounds shared with the local series (though Bathurst will not be part of the calendar for logistics reasons). Don't worry - events like Monte Carlo, Safari and Finland will be still there, they'll be now also part of their regional championships. And if the concept pioneered by the Central European Rally proves to be successful in the long run, perhaps we could see more rallies with the same concept.
Rally 2/R5 taking over would be great stop-gap solution (and it looks like that's what FIA is doing right now) but privateer teams should be able to build their own cars. Top class of WRC should also be allowed to participate in national championships. Electrification gets hard no from me - accumulators are too heavy, expensive and unreliable to be considered in any series that is struggling with rising costs. New technology rarely drives in manufacturer interest. I think that the "end goal" for the FIA should be return to group A - adjacent, heavily road car based machines. Suspension kinematics, gearbox, engine, most of the mechanical parts etc. coming from road car, little aero modifications allowed (if not present on a road...). That with heavy focus on limiting costs and technology allowed so we wouldn't suffer another RS500 vs R32 GTR "duopol" from early 90's touring cars. Would that mean much lower performance of cars? Yes. But I am more than willing to make that sacrifice. There are advantages to running silhouette/cookie cutter cars but group A gave us whole array of amazing road cars, that changed automotive landscape forever. GR Yaris proved that there's huge market for modern "rally car for the road". On top of that - technology that made making homologation specials in the past risky move (AWD, independent suspension on all 4 corners, turbochargers etc.) is now quite common sight. Just not in small cars that'd be competing in WRC. Qualifying gets hard no from me - it only gives leading car more advantage which is totally opposite to what you want to see in a motorsport. "Fixed", consistent handicap brings back competition closer together while still keeping best teams on top in the long run More rallies would increase costs - even currently, very few drivers participates in full season. Increase in amount of rounds can only be achieved once it's justifiable financially. Right now the proper solution would be either straight up reducing amount of rounds or "cutting off" specific amount of results for the driver's championship. Suggested point system could only work with asterisk, that overall winner won't be getting bonus points. And that would make reward for winning the rally much smaller. If winner gets bonus points as well, it will massively increase one team domination and would make it impossible to compete by bringing in regular points.
Interesting video. I disagree on two parts. First, a move to Rally2 is a good idea, but I think it would be necessary to tune the cars up a bit and add more aero. Rally1.5 if you will. Second, I don’t like your qualifying suggestion. I think it’s good to ‘punish’ the leading driver. Keeps things tight!!
I agree with you about the points system. There was nothing wrong about the points system and your alternative is still miles better than what they implemented. (Well, it'd difficult to come up with something worse.) I have to disagree about the cars. Rally2 cars are visibly slower than Rally1 and just too unspectacular. The small car category isn't exactly growing right now, the Fiesta has already been killed and the Polo is also facing an uncertain future, it's pretty much gone from WRC2 anyway. From a marketing standpoint it would make the most sense if the cars were be based on subcompact or compact crossovers.
Hybrid powertrains don't really add to rallies. It's the wrong platform. Endurance racing is where hybrid powertrains are right at home. It helps manufacturers convince customers that they can go long distances. For sprint racing formats, which rally and F1 belong to, hybrid doesn't make any difference. Sure, you can implement a Mario kart mode to make overtaking piss easy, but does it really make sense? Synthetic fuels should be the focus for Rally racing (also counting the W2RC) and sprint racing series.
The farther the cars get from stock, the less likely I am to watch them. I'm not of the philosophy that faster is better. I don't watch F1, but I love sedan racing and early 2000s rallying.
Rally1 regs would prevent Subaru from joining anyway as apart from the boring spec chassis bit, the spec drivetrain mandates a transverse engine, which you definitely are not doing with a boxer 4. So even if they got rid of the production based 1.6L I4 requirement Subaru would be out of the question.
Agree… prototype racing is out of hand. In virtually every racing series. My $.02, considering engine management is completely electronically controlled: “Hybrid tech” or anything likewise is a complete joke. Needs gone completely. Instead of exotic tech or miniature engines boosted to the moon, they should let manufactures run any engine configuration/ displacement they want. With the caveat that all power output will be measured and capped at 400hp/ 400tqs (or whatever) with changes locked out with a spec ecu. And of course use a spec fuel for the season as well. I would also recommend having a higher minimum vehicle weight that would negate the use of carbon, magnesium, and all other forms of unobtainum to the privateer teams.
I went back to follow wrc in 2017 and stopped when citroen pulled out. To be honest, everything that bad happen to wrc since 2004 is connected with french.
My opinion. Introduction of a privateer open class to compete directly with Rally 1 class. Same space frame chassis. Choose your engine configuration, no hybrid, front or rear engine placement, any displacement, aspiration etc as long as the balance of power is the same. Just like GT3. Also introduce an open class 2wd GT class to also compete with the R5's,..like porsches,lotus,GR86, Miatas, jaguar f type,caterhams 😂, etc. Bring back the marathon rally events where Endurance and reliability matter more than outright speed and double points are awarded. make it sort of a soft dakar without the desert extremes. A good example of an iconic rally is the East African Classic Safari rally that actually combines the distance of all modern WRC rallies in a calendar year, into a one week marathon for 50 year old cars. 2023 edition was epic... Fire the current wrc promoter and bring back the 2000's and 90's media coverage Format...people want to hear the stories and the emotion behind the stage battles...we want longer and more immersive videos that will rope in a legion of die hard fans every year. Since its a fan based sport, allow rally content creators and enthusiasts to thrive in an environment of openness and sharing intellectual property to widen the reach of the sport. Points should be awarded for morning and afternoon stages....and the one with the most stage win (mini legs) points can win the rally as long as he finishes the event. A super special spectator stage should be at the beginning and the end of the rally as a seperate competition for points in the rally...to showcase the event to the people and win the hearts and minds...of those who have never experienced motorsports. Finally cut the shithousery in scrutineering of local entries...thats where everyone began.
Keep rally1 but ditch the hybrid, go back to road based chassis, so make it a rally2+, more hp than rally2. So keep the same 380hp engines in them but the rally2 cars run 300 simple as that
Rally 2 is a no for me. The cars are clearly not as exciting as the Rally 1. For me the best solution is to have Rally USA. The marketing power of the USA will attract manufacturers that want to compete in that sector of fun to drive cars
Rally2 is too slow to be exciting for me as a top Categorie. WRC should get rid of the hybrid and make Rally1 a faster version of the rally2 cars with less boost restriction and more aero.
S2000 regs..... erm.... da fuuuuuq mate? the 2016 were WRC regs with 1.6 litre 300hp motors. 2017 upped the power to 380hp 1.6 litre with aero being the big change. s2000 regs are NA 2.0 litre engines and are NOT WRC cars. Current cars are fine, ditch the pointless hybrid system and give them 400hp........ which they are pretty much doing for the private entries.
2011-2016 WRC cars were in fact S2000 machines. Super 2000 regulations were joined touring car - rally regulations that allowed both 2.0 NA and 1.6l turbocharged engines to compete. Rally side of S2000 regs demanded use of common gearbox, AWD and suspension. In 2011 WRC class adopted S2000 (+) technical regulations in attempt to lower cost of entry and force closer "performance parity" between cars. It worked in the same way, as currently proposed Rally 2+ replacement for Rally 1. WRC cars got bigger restrictor plates, higher boost and less aero restrictions compared to S2000 cars they were directly derived from.
Rally 2 is not exciting enough. There's not enough power, not enough speed, not enough noise. I think they should revise the regulations to allow non-hybrids and be a bit closer to WRC2 looks-wise to attract more manufacturers, but still have that same thrill the current cars do.
Hi JW, This I think is not the first time I come to you with a really long reply. And I see you got a lot of replies already. I am into this sport since 1980 and I do a lot of research into it. So for starters: Big congratulations, this really is fantastic what you say! RALLY1: I agree 100% with you on this! Couldn’t say it better. Still a few remarks: If Rally2 cars for WRC should have hybrid, I am not sure. I see Hybrid as one of the big problems. This makes it again expensive and remote. Some countries as the UK want to even ban hybrids soon and mates that have a hybrid report an actually higher fuel consumption and less fun because of the added weight. What I do not understand in the first place is the whole marketing, or being scared of going against the stream of what is long not proven to be correct in such a fast moving development. The stream may change... Where is the marketing that WRC very successfully uses non-fossile fuels since years! F1 still discusses it, WRC does! And it works, no problems…. The only problem that could only maybe be linked to non-fossile fuels was Fourmaux Rally2 car engine giving up in Ypres 2022. How many Hybrid problems did we have? The pro EV Mafia tells us it doesn’t work, WRC proves it does, day-in, day-out, and in competition, that is what WRC is for, that is how i.e. safety belts were invented! So do that. Err, we do that already, JUST TELL PEOPLE! Do as Rally did since 40 years in groups 2/4/B/A, be a proving ground for new technologies and not run after the apes like sheap! But more road reality would be good for that, too? Rally2 makers as Citroen and Skoda fear with manufacturer involvement at WRC level their cars are getting too expensive. Hmm, yeah, I see that. So let’s take Rally2, make them wider, more wings, so they look aggressive like the only plus point for Rally1. Add a much bigger air restrictor and the ECU to go with that. Back are the pops and bangs and flames from exhausts. I am thinking on the lines of the RRC cars we had a while ago, they were not the same as WRC cars but you could easily convert one into the other. M-Sport, who depends on sales, is a perfect example: When we had RRC, M-Sport sold over 50 Fiesta WRC! The current Rally1 cars are now in their 3rd season and M-Sport has sold exactly ONE! Bottom line, you hit the nail on the head. The problem with Rally1 is for the price of 1 Rally1 you get 4-5 Rally2 cars, but the Rally1 is exclusive to the WRC, you can’t use them in national championships, you can’t even use them in ERC, MERC, APRC etc! Think i.e. of M-Sport. They came out with a competitive Rally1 and fell more and more behind. Why? They pay huge money for these cars and they can’t sell them ever! Skoda has more money, they have built around 500 Rally2 cars now and they have sold every single one of them, because they can be used everywhere! 2 CAR TEAMS: No, sorry, here I don’t agree with you at all! But this perfectly fits to the Rally1 dilemma. In 2004 we turned from 3 to 2 car teams. Hmm, what has happened to the WRC? In 2003 we had Peugeot, Ford, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Skoda, Hyundai and Citroen. Seat just left. Yes, difficult if a team is behind. But in 2003 we still had 7 makes and 3 works drivers each, makes 21! Today we have 8! Which also means, see M-Sport, there is no must to run 3 cars, you nominate 3 and the best 2 score. And talking as example Citroen 2003: if your Colin McRae crashes, you still have this totally unknown young gun called Seb Loeb who can secure some points. Yes, I honestly doubt if Loeb would ever have had a chance in 2-car teams!! In 2002/03 he proved his point and then came 2-car teams and between Loeb/Sainz/Colin Citroen had to let one driver go. Bye bye Colin! SAD! Only a year earlier and they would have never dropped Colin in favour of Loeb, Loeb would have been a 0-times World Champ! It’s not only him. At Hyundai they dragged in Juha Kankkunen. He may have been wasted in this car, but I felt sorry to see him go. Best example maybe again Skoda. In the 3rd car we had new CZ hope Roman Kresta or new German natl champ Matthias Kahle or new Argentinian hope Gabriel Pozzo, and where nobody else was available we had old gun Stig Blomqvist driving this 3rd car paid by his codriver Ana Goni. Every single one of them I felt sad to have them go! And did more manufacturers come in after that? No! We want new stars? Well, how can they prove themselves if they never get to drive the same cars, even if on smaller rallies? They may have dominated the national championship for the past 5 years and come WRC they either do it in a 2nd league car or they have to learn something completely different that they can’t even afford in the first place! MORE EVENTS: Not sure about that. In my eyes if finance is a problem, and having worked in logistics before, the problem is not if you run 2 or 3 cars, if you stay 3 or 4 nights, the problem is getting there round half the planet in the first place. 15 rounds compared to 13 is a huge budget issue. If you travel there anyway, how much is it to stay an extra night, have an extra car? In management and development nothing really? Even as a spectator, yes it was an effort to see a 1990s RAC, but an RAC that is on 2 stages a day all in Wales, well the road trip was still 2000kms, the ferry to UK still the same, it just wasn’t worth it any more! I saw 5 stages instead of 15 and saw a quarter of the country for roughly the same amount of money! And for the fans, I currently do think the ERC is the better series anyway, add that to the 13 WRC rounds, I have 21 weekends of rallying!
Part2: SHAKEDOWN = QUALIFYING BRILLIANT!! I said that all the time, though. And I said before, can’t the WRC learn from ERC too? It is the same promotor after all! It gives way more meaning to shakedown and less whinging over starting order! POINTS SYSTEM: Day points? Sorry. No, again look at ERC. We had it there. It was mega confusing for reporters and fans and none of the drivers actually cared about it. And I made calculations, it actually didn’t make a difference in any single case either. Even when Chris Ingram mega excitingly won the ERC title on the last stage of the last rally, the day points did not make the difference, the differrence was that even the best rally commentator of all time, Julian Porter, spoiled the party in basically saying “I need the calculator, I tell you the result tomorrow” Well….. I don’t like your system…. I want the 2023 and before system back! Hang on, after letting your video sink in, I do actually get you now! You want the old system since years back, too! Continuity. But if the FIA absolutely wants change, then I agree your system is way better than what we have now! The gap 1st to 2nd seems big, but the overall winner should get the most points, and in your case he/she does! Overall should mean more than days and days should mean more than a single stage! I absolutely 100% agree! I must admit though, I hated power stages from the moment they were invented. I think they were first tried in 2003. 20 years ago now. My criticism was they are unfair. A guy who retires stage one wins power stage with a fresh car. A guy who dominates the whole rally and retires in the power stage gets nothing at all. Doesn’t really make it interesting to fight for a power stage when the heart of rallying was always the endurance and tactics element, well, the whole story as should be? - Maybe you can turn F1 into one lap, but Rallying is a story, isn’t it? - For the Sunday a guy who retired Fridays has a fresh car, a guy who did the whole rally risks losing everything. A guy who has big gaps on the Sundfay doesn’t want to risk, if he has fresh tyres for the last stage it is an advantage…. See? Once again you hit the nail on the head! Just give them fresh tyres for the last stage, problem solved! It really is that easy! Guys who fight for positions can’t win power stage. Guy who is tootling around can take 5 points. This is so wrong! And was it you who said with the new points system, we are fighting the symptoms, not the cause!? By now I like the idea of ending the weekend on a highlight. But still, the problem we fight now with an overly complicated points system was known already 20 years ago! MY VERDICT: How did Loeb come up there, how Meeke, Breen, Neuville? Maybe Gardemeister, PG-Anderssson, Pozzo, Kresta were not so successfull but at least they got a chance. Even Blomqvist, KKK, even Colin went right that moment WRC went to 2-cars in 2004! Through 3-car teams? Through IRC who didn’t have all those limitations? Where shall they come from now? Who is in line next? Make the top cars at least similar to Rally2, make 3-car teams…. Everything else I absolutely see your thinking and you are spot on and indeed refreshing! The more of us see it that way, the more the FIA might follow? MAYBE AS LAST EXAMPLE: RALLY LAYOUTS! The whole thing is marketed wrong. The roads should be natural, the cars should have a road relation, we are not doing circuit racing, we are not doing rally cross, the main incrediant is ADVENTURE AND ROAD RELATION (marketing)! I heard once F1 will naver change their schedule with Sunday 14:00 race starts because that is when people are watching. I do not want WRC rallies to shorten. But one thing I never understood since decades, and even less so now I have a family: Who came up with the idea the power stage has to be on Sunday 12:18 (or 11:18 UK time?) If the WRC insists on only 2 ½ days, then at least move the entire thing back by half a day! Friday could be the half day. Friday morning everybody has to work when Friday afternoon (or better even night) could be a great teaser to get us into the mood. Saturday unchanged. Sunday, my wife and son are huge WRC fans but I simply can’t get them to get up at 5am on their only day off per week! At the same time if the Sunday would have 10 stages instead of 3, there would be no farting about saving tyres and cars, because you still can actually make a difference! The last stage also shouldn’t be that short, it should be a highlight in itself. And again, the ERC proves that, same as qualifying stage etc. ERC events are nail biting until the last stage without compliacted points systems and overpriced cars! We don’t need a complicated and unfair points system if the sport itself was good, and it doesn’t need much to achieve that!
Great video Joe, i do agree with your suggestions, the only thing i would have a gripe with is the points system, i do think it should go back to the old system and your idea for it is well intended but i dont think giving 1 point for the fastest driver in the Power Stage and no one else is worth it imo. The other thing would be to not have the live coverage behind a paywall but thats the case for most series unfortunately. Looking forward to the next video in 2 weeks 👀
The issue with hybrid is they're not built by each manufacturer - it's a standard unit. As for 14-16 rounds, at the moment it's just not viable; until there are 5-6 manufacturers then 10 is a better number. Look at the WEC; they have more manufacturers, yet have only 9 rounds..... Something you didn't mention, and gets missed is the event formats; needs overhauling - so we get a mix of 2, 3 & 4 day events. Rallying is meant to be a mix of speed & Endurance.....
Having longer events is a pretty good idea, but due to the economic climate it wouldn't be very good for costs. As much as I would love to see a 5 day Acropolis again, it is not viable in the modern day. One thing that can change though is stage lengths. We hardly ever get 50+km stages in the modern day. I think it speaks volumes when the longest stage in the WRC video game is longer than the longest stage in the current real-life WRC. Speaking of stages, why is there no Ouninpohja? Every year I check the Rally Finland itenary to see if Ouninpohja is inculded, and every time it's either completely omitted or they use a small 7 or 8 km section of it.
I think the fia/wrc needs to make rally 1 and rally 2 cars specs the same but rally 1 cars have a removable plug and play hybrid system with slighty bigger spoilers and splitters meaning and rally 2 privateer could possible rent or buy the hybrid system for a race but still have a rally 2 car once removed
In my opinion you can make sunday points 1st 5 points 2nd 3 ponins and 3rd 1 point so they can push the limits on the last + maybe (MAYBE) try to bring some sedan rally cars because they are so exictin to watch like subaru for rally3.
We haven't really seen the consequences of the new points system yet because Neuville absolutely blitzed Monte. I'm waiting to see a rally where someone doesn't win everything. My initial thought is to keep this system but add a bonus for winning overall. Have to think about it more though.
I know its boring right but i would just scrap Rally 1 and have Rally 2 as the top class. All the rally 1 teams have Rally 2 cars anyway. The cars are still fast, sound good but SO much cheaper to run. Dont change any of the technical rules, dont push up the costs. This way you can have 10s of entries for every WRC rally and the opportunity for young drivers/national drivers to maybe put in big performances against the top guys. Also, you need to limit testing, rally 1 testing is almost non stop before events.
There are some really good points made in this video, but I have a little bit of a different idea of how it should be done (no disrespect to the original poster though) 1. Switching to Rally2 cars is a good idea, but as someone else pointed out they need to have a little extra umph. Either keep the cars the same, but use Rally1 engines, sans hybrid system, or keep the Rally2 engines, and make the aero a little bit more extravagant and effective. 2. I think the amount of rallies on the calendar is fine at the minute. However, there are some odd choices and some glaring ommissions. As good as Croatia is, its not really a classic event that we could be going to, like Corsica or Catalunya. I find Japan pretty boring. It's a pretty underwhelming season finale. Imo, the season finale should always be Wales, since it is pretty much the WRC's Interlagos. However, I wouldn't ditch Japan entirely, I would just move it to Hokkaido, since that rally was much better than the current one. Sanremo is much better than Sardegna, and it would also help bolster the lack of tarmac events we have in the minute. I would also remove a European event, probably Poland or Latvia, which are too similar to Finland, and replace it with one round in Chile, Argentina or Mexico and another in New Zealand or Australia. 3. I think the privateer teams suggestion is a very good idea and they should have their own championship, like how F1 had the Jim Clark Trophy back in the 80s for non-turbo cars. However, I have always prefered it when teams ran with three drivers as opposed to two. In 2004, the Citroen driver crisis forced Colin McRae out of the WRC, which was arguably the first catalyst for the downfall of the WRC (I know he's only one man, but if you ask anyone on the street to name a rally driver I garuntee the first one that comes to mind is Colin McRae. Like Ayrton Senna in F1, Michael Jordan in basketball and Pele in football he transcended the sport). There is also a severe lack of star personalities in the WRC. Back in the WRC's heyday, you often had 5 or 6 champions such as Auriol, Burns, McRae, Gronholm, Sainz and Kankunnen enetering any current event, as well as cult heroes like Markko Martin, Gilles Panizzi, Gigi Galli and Hari Rovanpera enetering spadorically. The only drivers worth noting now are Evans, Rovanpera, Ogier, Neuville and Tanak, and two of those only enter part time. If anything, I think teams running 4 cars would be better than running two, as it allows all the potential stars (Mikkelsen, Sordo, Lappi, O. Solberg, Greensmith, Ostberg) who don't have a full-time drive to get one. 4. I like the qualifying stage idea as well. However, I would let the drivers choose their starting spot by order of fastest time set. If a driver turns up late, I won't force them to practically give up their championship like the stewards made Colin McRae do in 2001, but I would just give them a $20,000 fine instead. 5. Contreversial perhaps, but it'll save costs and make things more interesting. Ditch shakedown. The Qualifying stage will replace the shakedown run, and I'll still let them make set-up changes on Thursday night. When SS1 begins, you are in parc-ferme, unless you need to make a safety related change, such as replacing a heavily damaged suspension part or a gaping hole in the radiator. 6. Make the tyres very hard. You have to replace soft, sticky tyres more often and they make the cars slide around less. If the drivers complain they should deal with it. Also, I'm reducing the amount of tyres used over a weekend from 28 to 16, so they effectively have 1 set of 4 for each day of the rally. If a driver runs out of tyres, they can use a maximum of 4 over the limit, but you will get a half a minute penalty for each extra tyre fitted. If you use 21 tyres you're DSQ'd. 7. I'm just going to make points very simple. 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 from 1st to 8th. It worked back in the day and made complete sense. No bonus points at all. However, so Wolf Lubricants don't get angry, the power stage won't be ditched entirely. No points will be awarded to driver, manufacturer or team championship, but the driver who wins the most power stages throughout the season will win the Wolf Lubricants Trophy. And to add at least some incentive to push the driver who wins the power stage will get one additional tyre for each power stage win. They can award it like they hand out the pole position trophy in F1, but instead of a miniature Pirelli tyre the get the real thing. They can use the additional tyre whenever they like through the season. So if a driver is in the championship battle, they could save up tyres through the whole season, and if they win 8 power stages through the season, they can really put pedal to the metal in the final round as they will have two extra sets of tyres compared to their competitors, basically meaning they can drive as hard as they like. 8. For the fun of it, private teams can run Group A, F2 kit cars and WRC 2.0 cars from the past to enter in the offical championship. How fun would it be to see Latavala in a Corolla battling Hirvonen in a Focus with Panizzi in a 306 and Makinen in an Evo VI for championship points again? As for the other categories, Rally2 in it's current form (not the new modified form as mentioned above) will be ditched. The WRC-2 championship will run to Rally3, so more manufacturers will be able to build Rally3 cars as I feel the category has untapped potential. The WRC Junior category will use Rally4 cars, as I feel the WRC needs a 2WD drive category. There will also be a WRC-GT Championship, using Rally-GT cars, at I feel that is another category that can be really exciting (just look at their popularity in Dirt Rally 2.0).
I think these are all great improvements, but I do think there's a problem WRC has at the moment that goes beyond the cars and points system: the two best current drivers, Rovanpera and Ogier, are not racing full-time, and the overall driver quality is lower as a result. What I'd do is keep the "traditional" points system but bring back... drop rounds, as was tradition in both F1 and rally back in the day. Say out of the 13 rallies, only your 9 best results count. Of course running every race gives you more chances to do well, but it incentivises part time drivers like Ogier and Rovanpera to run for a title, even with a shorter schedule. Ogier, for example, ran 8 rallies last year, it'd be easier to convince him to run one more than to run 5 more. I dunno, that's my silly idea for the day.
You got the categories mixed a bit but you are right about rally1 needing to go. Still rally2 is not up to the task but an upgrede KIT can be offered on the base rally2 car to boost the look and tech on the cars. WRC needs more power and also better side protection in case of lateral impact.
I quite agree on most points (the downgrate of cars especially), but I'd say your point systeme is still too complicated. There is an art to keeping a big lead, just as some of the best football matches end in a 0-0 draw. You don't need fireworks to enjoy the sky at night (especially if you're tenting in a forest waiting for a car to come by).
Yeah, an extra set of tyres just for one stage would help REDUCING costs. But I understand it's not the same amount as running Rally1 cars. Also, I think stage wins are not really important. So 1 pt extra for each should help that as in ERC.
Hybrid is only expensive because there are two power trains and two energy stores. Getting rid of a complicated combustion engine and moving to fully electric propulsion would also drive down the cost. I would then leave the energy store up to the manufacturers who could explore different options from fully battery electric (let Toyota show off their solid state battery tech, for example), hydrogen, or even using an ICE as an electric generator. Audi's Dakar car went a bit overboard with the latter solution with IIRC three Formula E electric drive trains and a GT3 combustion engine as a generator. A smaller and far less complicated ethanol-based engine as generator for an electric drive train would probably be cheapest solution these days. Heck, maybe mandate that the drive train comes from the consumer car.
![Rally1 vs WRC - In-Depth Analysis [WRC 2023]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/uJoSD_qOjTY/mqdefault.jpg)
S2000-R5-Rally2 to be the main class idea has been discussed for 15 years now. The correct move would be Rally2+. Bit bigger restrictor, bit more aero, bit more safety.
Another issue is that only manufacturers can enter cars right now. It should be open to anyone that can build a regulation compliant car, like the Rally Raid T1 class.
Points idea: No points. Combine the total time of a driver for every rally and work out who completed the entire championship the fastest, obviously with penalty time added for DNFs and stuff
On a cost standpoint, switching from Rally1 to Rally2 actually makes sense. I feel like Rally2 is where the money's at in terms of manufacturer participation, especially with lower cost than Rally1, not to mention a chance to attract more new manufacturers interested in.
to add to the new cars is what Sainz said in an interview: The cars have to be such that it allows them to race in national championships, so that they can be bought and sold. Rally2 does that. Plus they're not the same car with different lights like Rally1...
Edit: The hybrid is a stop-gap to delay the dependance on fossil fuels. Wouldn't mind if they just went with an alternative to it and run with it, get ahead of the streets again, like motorsports should.
The main issues with rallying, at the high level are external. Rally 1 was used to lure manufacturers because of the space frame and the hybrid, and this is correct. Its the manufacturers which dont want to participate, we have seen this in many series, where rules where made based on manufacturer imput to cater for their requirements, only for them to have no interest in spending the money. Next, you cannot understate the damage the long periods of dominance by the sebs have done to the product in the short term. The records are forever skewed, by men who competed in the least competitive points of the WRC in the regulation rally era.
For me the biggest problem that needs addressing is the rally itself. There is no variety, and no adventure. Rallying has never been about close finishing or nail biting action but about variety in the rallies and the results. Its amazing to habe the safari back but its far too short. Needs to be 2 stages per loops like 50 to 80 km ea. There is no reason to have the Latvia, when we have corse. Bring back the point to point for some rallies so the corse round island, the monte is the end and it starts somewhere in the alps, Nairobi - Mombassa, ohhhhh please .... if there is any change, Hong Kong beijing.
Rallying is about the adventure. The challenge is to finsh and experience as much of the culture as possible.
On that note, why are there not 2 rounds in asia, south America etc? The FIA has regional pro championships on each continent. There should be rallies in tropical south east Asia, like Indonesia, Thailand, India, maybe Brazil, what about the desert, UAE or something. Middle East and SE asia are huge rally markets, like what dorna did moving a lot of there races to the motorcycle marlet, rallying needs to chase the hatchback markets, where traditional circuits are not properly developed. This then opens the door for manufacturers like TATA, lynk and co or whoever for example, to look into. Rallying has always been the entry point for plucky foreign manufacturers, we saw it in the 70s with the Italians, the 90 with the Japanese, the 10s with the koreans, all at the time considered to be cheap junk, used the sprot to build a brand or dependability and respect. But the WRC doesnt touch these regions even of there has been successful intercontinental rallies there for years.
The point seemed really dumb on paper, but i remember the APRC, the ARC, etc have always awarded points at the end of each leg and the rally win was just a bonus. Why not just give points at rhe end of the leg and a bonus for winning the rally overall, maybe some points for who won the most stages, etc.
12 rallies but more substantial, 4 days. Agree with everything else
First of all stop calling the 2011-2016 WRC cars S2000. S2000 was a naturally aspirated class that was later replaced by the R5 which is currently Rally2. Also the logic for removing the top tier class is like saying lets remove F1 cars and make everyone drive F2 cars. Brilliant m8 brilliant
well, once it's clear a category is not working, I don't see how downgrading is bad. It makes for a smooth transition, it livens up the championship and even can be something current drivers already know a bit.
It worked well when Group B died. Group A and early WRC days were a second golden era for the sport and it came from a downgrade from top tier...
@@toguapotobo Well i don't think a hybrid drive is a solution at all. The cars already run on synthetic fuel so why bother weighing the car down with expensive and veery bursty solution. I wouldn't mind them using a Rally2 car as a base but do allow the manufacturer to upgrade it quite extensively. I ultimately think the biggest issue of WRC currently is the lack of even decent drivers. All you get now is 1-3 fast but unreliable drivers (Neuville, Evans, Tanak) and a bunch of filler (fourmaux, munster, katsuta, sordo, mikellsen), while the best remaining drivers (Ogier, Rovanpera) aren't on competing against each other terms because they dont even go a full season anymore....
That’s what we did when we got rid of Group B and made group A the top class. Group B killed people and Rally1 is killing rallying.
Eh, check what f1 did in 1952 and 1953, because of the spiralling costs
Actually I 100% agree with him on making Rally2 the top class. Theres a proposal on the table to make Rally2 the top class, BUT something he didnt mention in the video is that those new WORLD RALLY CARS(dont know why he was calling them S2K) would be beefed up Rally2's, more power, aero and better everything in general.
Your comparsion to formula 1 makes absolutely no sense, its like comparing apples to oranges. Rallying is in a much different situation.
Manufacturers and sponsors are very interested and are invensting loads of money into F1 cus it atracts the most eyeballs.
WRC on the other hand has a much reduced audience and manufacturer interest is basically non existent, so if theres not as much people watching, theres not as much money going around therefore YOU CANT HAVE CARS THIS EXPENSIVE. God I feel stupid having to explain something that simple
1. "Rally2 cars are as fast as WRC cars of the 00's" --> true, but they are not as spectacular because the speed has increased through better suspension and tyres, not power
2. "Just two manufacturer cars" --> why? It will lead into less top cars, less drivers getting paid
3. "More rallies" --> it will be more expensive, no matter what cars they are running
4. "Bring back Wales Rally GB/RAC" --> it's not up to FIA or Promoter. It's up to Wales/UK that they cannot arrange it.
5. "Bring back qualifying" --> this would just make sure Ogier/Neuville/Tänak/Rovanperä wins absolutely every stage in every rally
6. "Tyre change before Power Stage" --> one team didn't want this. But like above, this would mostly benefit the fastest drivers.
7. "Day points" --> well isn't that more complicated? I would give 25 points for win like before, but change power stage for full Sunday points.
Personally I’d ditch the Rally 1 Regs for the Rally 2 regs but have it as Rally 2+ sort of thing where there’s a bit more aero on the car and it’s a bit more powerful just to bridge the gap between WRC and WRC2. But have the package as an option that a privateer can buy.
Then with it running on sustainable fuel like it is now I’d look at the tv coverage it’s not good. The rally tv app is horrible and clunky to use on a phone. You could have both tv coverage and the app where you have a live tv stage on normal television and keep the rest on the app so people are more likely to subscribe to it to keep the revenue flowing.
I’d keep the three car teams that they have for a while until there is enough manufacturers in the sport but you have to choose two drivers which can score the team points.
Yeah that's the same what I was thinking as well. Maybe have a similar wing to the pre-2016 1.6 regulations and use the same engine regulations as they have now (without the hybrid system).
I agree with rally2 cars to replace rally1. It's a popular, cost effective and has more of a 'win on sunday, sell on monday' potential over the rally1 class. However I'd suggest hydrogen technology (or some sort of low cost eco friendly fuel) over hybrids down the line.
About points scoring for teams/manufacturers, I have no problem with the current system, but as a alternative I would do two drivers per team/manufacturer will be eligible as well, however instead of teams choosing the eligible drivers, like in the past, the two drivers eligible will be two best placed drivers in the rally, since I think that will make teams/manufacturers more involved by bringing more than two cars. I completely agree with 14-16 rallies per season and bringing back Wales and rallies in Oceania (or other classic venues).
I don't agree with the qualifying stage. I find it redundant. They can use shakedown stage for it if they would go for this rule imo. My suggestion is the drivers order being determined by the results at the end of the day, just like in the 2000's, meaning the best drivers on day one are road sweepers on day two etc. Sure it punishes the drivers which are leading, but I always liked the parity and the fact the slower cars had easier chance to catch up. Alternatively they can use coin flip system, which was used in world rallycross championship in 2019 to determine whether the drivers order would be flipped in favor of the leading drivers or the strugglers.
I'm split about ability to change tyres for power stage. I see where you are coming from, It's not really power if they have to save tyres on it. But I'll keep the way wrc uses right now, again in regards of cost and because it brings the extra tactic of whether saving the tyres for power stage or pushing them throughout the day, even if the tyres will suffer on the power stage. Maybe renaming power stage would help that, though I have no idea on how to rename it.
And obviously bring back normal points scoring system, more specifically the mid to late 2000's (10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1) and maybe adjust it for top ten points scoring (something like 15, 12, 10, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1). In my opinion that would be happy medium between domination and consistent points scoring. As for bonus points, I'd bring back first version of power stage points scoring (3, 2, 1) and extra point for winner of the stage (asside from power stage), similarly to wrc3.
The hybrid system just needs to be cheaper and more sustainable cause the hybrid stuff is cool. The big thing is Sodium Ion batteries (cheaper and more sustainable than lithium just not as powerful but they aren't lame tho) I believe VW's EVs are going to be run on these batteries. Would love a US and/or Canadian rally as well. That's all the info I can provide and if I am wrong let me know lol. They could make a side championship for EV Rally similar to the WRX having stuff like RX2 and RX2e championships. Just because it's inevitable but also seeing something like the Hoonigan E-Tron being the EV Quattro. it could be an innovation series, not a top-level championship to encourage RnD and private conversion entrees of gas cars as well. These are ideas but at this point, the Rally2 idea makes a ton of sense.
Your points system aint bad BUT theres one which I think is actually better and that is a suggestion Jari Matti Latvala made.
The FIAs idea with this points system is to avoid Sunday driving, drivers cruising to the power stage, so, what Jari Matti suggested is very simple, award bonus points for stage wins on Sunday
IMO adding aero bits to the existing Rally2 cars is not needed as the Rally2 cars are good as they are without the need to charge customers premium for an aero kit that would be used maybe in 14 rallies per year, whereas a vanilla Rally2 car can be used in national or regional competitions without any modifications.
And I know this will sound will sound controversial, but maybe it is time for the WRC to adopt cutomer racing model - with mainly independent teams and manufacturers offering technical support to their customers. The issue with this idea is the WRC will stop being the World Rally Championship and 50+ year history will be waived goodbye. There are rules at what can be called a 'championship' by the FIA and revolves around manufacturer infolvement - if a series doesn't have at least 3 manufacturer teams in it, it ceases being a 'championship'. Kinda similar thing happened when the World Touring Car Championship became WTCR - it became FIA World Touring Car Cup following the adoption of the TCR regulations which replaced the unpoular TC1 regulations (kinda a similar story to Rally1). The thing is that WTCC didn't had the long and established history of WRC - it was relaunched in 2005 after a one-and-done Group A season in 1987, so it wasn't a huge loss.
And if WRC goes down the customer route, I'd take the idea up the notch and have the calendar consist of events from the regional calendars - ERC, MERC, ARC, APRC, CODASUR and NCAM. Kinda what TCR World Tour (the spiritual successor of WTCR) is employing right now with the calendar consisting of rounds shared with the local series (though Bathurst will not be part of the calendar for logistics reasons). Don't worry - events like Monte Carlo, Safari and Finland will be still there, they'll be now also part of their regional championships. And if the concept pioneered by the Central European Rally proves to be successful in the long run, perhaps we could see more rallies with the same concept.
Rally 2/R5 taking over would be great stop-gap solution (and it looks like that's what FIA is doing right now) but privateer teams should be able to build their own cars. Top class of WRC should also be allowed to participate in national championships.
Electrification gets hard no from me - accumulators are too heavy, expensive and unreliable to be considered in any series that is struggling with rising costs. New technology rarely drives in manufacturer interest.
I think that the "end goal" for the FIA should be return to group A - adjacent, heavily road car based machines. Suspension kinematics, gearbox, engine, most of the mechanical parts etc. coming from road car, little aero modifications allowed (if not present on a road...). That with heavy focus on limiting costs and technology allowed so we wouldn't suffer another RS500 vs R32 GTR "duopol" from early 90's touring cars. Would that mean much lower performance of cars? Yes. But I am more than willing to make that sacrifice. There are advantages to running silhouette/cookie cutter cars but group A gave us whole array of amazing road cars, that changed automotive landscape forever. GR Yaris proved that there's huge market for modern "rally car for the road". On top of that - technology that made making homologation specials in the past risky move (AWD, independent suspension on all 4 corners, turbochargers etc.) is now quite common sight. Just not in small cars that'd be competing in WRC.
Qualifying gets hard no from me - it only gives leading car more advantage which is totally opposite to what you want to see in a motorsport. "Fixed", consistent handicap brings back competition closer together while still keeping best teams on top in the long run
More rallies would increase costs - even currently, very few drivers participates in full season. Increase in amount of rounds can only be achieved once it's justifiable financially. Right now the proper solution would be either straight up reducing amount of rounds or "cutting off" specific amount of results for the driver's championship.
Suggested point system could only work with asterisk, that overall winner won't be getting bonus points. And that would make reward for winning the rally much smaller. If winner gets bonus points as well, it will massively increase one team domination and would make it impossible to compete by bringing in regular points.
Do a video on fixing DTM (The German GT3 Championship run by ADAC)
Interesting video.
I disagree on two parts. First, a move to Rally2 is a good idea, but I think it would be necessary to tune the cars up a bit and add more aero. Rally1.5 if you will.
Second, I don’t like your qualifying suggestion. I think it’s good to ‘punish’ the leading driver. Keeps things tight!!
I agree with you about the points system. There was nothing wrong about the points system and your alternative is still miles better than what they implemented. (Well, it'd difficult to come up with something worse.)
I have to disagree about the cars. Rally2 cars are visibly slower than Rally1 and just too unspectacular. The small car category isn't exactly growing right now, the Fiesta has already been killed and the Polo is also facing an uncertain future, it's pretty much gone from WRC2 anyway.
From a marketing standpoint it would make the most sense if the cars were be based on subcompact or compact crossovers.
Hybrid powertrains don't really add to rallies. It's the wrong platform. Endurance racing is where hybrid powertrains are right at home. It helps manufacturers convince customers that they can go long distances. For sprint racing formats, which rally and F1 belong to, hybrid doesn't make any difference. Sure, you can implement a Mario kart mode to make overtaking piss easy, but does it really make sense? Synthetic fuels should be the focus for Rally racing (also counting the W2RC) and sprint racing series.
The farther the cars get from stock, the less likely I am to watch them. I'm not of the philosophy that faster is better. I don't watch F1, but I love sedan racing and early 2000s rallying.
Rally1 regs would prevent Subaru from joining anyway as apart from the boring spec chassis bit, the spec drivetrain mandates a transverse engine, which you definitely are not doing with a boxer 4. So even if they got rid of the production based 1.6L I4 requirement Subaru would be out of the question.
Agree… prototype racing is out of hand. In virtually every racing series.
My $.02, considering engine management is completely electronically controlled:
“Hybrid tech” or anything likewise is a complete joke.
Needs gone completely.
Instead of exotic tech or miniature engines boosted to the moon, they should let manufactures run any engine configuration/ displacement they want. With the caveat that all power output will be measured and capped at 400hp/ 400tqs (or whatever) with changes locked out with a spec ecu. And of course use a spec fuel for the season as well.
I would also recommend having a higher minimum vehicle weight that would negate the use of carbon, magnesium, and all other forms of unobtainum to the privateer teams.
I went back to follow wrc in 2017 and stopped when citroen pulled out.
To be honest, everything that bad happen to wrc since 2004 is connected with french.
My opinion.
Introduction of a privateer open class to compete directly with Rally 1 class. Same space frame chassis. Choose your engine configuration, no hybrid, front or rear engine placement, any displacement, aspiration etc as long as the balance of power is the same. Just like GT3.
Also introduce an open class 2wd GT class to also compete with the R5's,..like porsches,lotus,GR86, Miatas, jaguar f type,caterhams 😂, etc.
Bring back the marathon rally events where Endurance and reliability matter more than outright speed and double points are awarded. make it sort of a soft dakar without the desert extremes. A good example of an iconic rally is the East African Classic Safari rally that actually combines the distance of all modern WRC rallies in a calendar year, into a one week marathon for 50 year old cars. 2023 edition was epic...
Fire the current wrc promoter and bring back the 2000's and 90's media coverage Format...people want to hear the stories and the emotion behind the stage battles...we want longer and more immersive videos that will rope in a legion of die hard fans every year.
Since its a fan based sport, allow rally content creators and enthusiasts to thrive in an environment of openness and sharing intellectual property to widen the reach of the sport.
Points should be awarded for morning and afternoon stages....and the one with the most stage win (mini legs) points can win the rally as long as he finishes the event. A super special spectator stage should be at the beginning and the end of the rally as a seperate competition for points in the rally...to showcase the event to the people and win the hearts and minds...of those who have never experienced motorsports.
Finally cut the shithousery in scrutineering of local entries...thats where everyone began.
Keep rally1 but ditch the hybrid, go back to road based chassis, so make it a rally2+, more hp than rally2. So keep the same 380hp engines in them but the rally2 cars run 300 simple as that
Rally 2 is a no for me. The cars are clearly not as exciting as the Rally 1.
For me the best solution is to have Rally USA. The marketing power of the USA will attract manufacturers that want to compete in that sector of fun to drive cars
Rally2 is too slow to be exciting for me as a top Categorie. WRC should get rid of the hybrid and make Rally1 a faster version of the rally2 cars with less boost restriction and more aero.
Toyota don't own Subaru, they only own 20% of the company.
Rally2 manufacturers already said no to that idea, so that's not gonna happen.
Thanks to JW Talks and Frontrunner Motorsport, I'm going to pay more attention to WRC2.
It would be quite wasteful of new tyres on the power stage if they were only used for a single stage, and the only the winner gets a point.
S2000 regs..... erm.... da fuuuuuq mate? the 2016 were WRC regs with 1.6 litre 300hp motors. 2017 upped the power to 380hp 1.6 litre with aero being the big change. s2000 regs are NA 2.0 litre engines and are NOT WRC cars. Current cars are fine, ditch the pointless hybrid system and give them 400hp........ which they are pretty much doing for the private entries.
2011-2016 WRC cars were in fact S2000 machines. Super 2000 regulations were joined touring car - rally regulations that allowed both 2.0 NA and 1.6l turbocharged engines to compete. Rally side of S2000 regs demanded use of common gearbox, AWD and suspension. In 2011 WRC class adopted S2000 (+) technical regulations in attempt to lower cost of entry and force closer "performance parity" between cars.
It worked in the same way, as currently proposed Rally 2+ replacement for Rally 1. WRC cars got bigger restrictor plates, higher boost and less aero restrictions compared to S2000 cars they were directly derived from.
Rally 2 is not exciting enough. There's not enough power, not enough speed, not enough noise. I think they should revise the regulations to allow non-hybrids and be a bit closer to WRC2 looks-wise to attract more manufacturers, but still have that same thrill the current cars do.
yes I agree with you in this one ...more rallies !!
as an argentinian, we need argentina back on the calendar
Hi JW,
This I think is not the first time I come to you with a really long reply.
And I see you got a lot of replies already. I am into this sport since 1980 and I do a lot of research into it.
So for starters:
Big congratulations, this really is fantastic what you say!
RALLY1:
I agree 100% with you on this! Couldn’t say it better. Still a few remarks:
If Rally2 cars for WRC should have hybrid, I am not sure. I see Hybrid as one of the big problems. This makes it again expensive and remote. Some countries as the UK want to even ban hybrids soon and mates that have a hybrid report an actually higher fuel consumption and less fun because of the added weight. What I do not understand in the first place is the whole marketing, or being scared of going against the stream of what is long not proven to be correct in such a fast moving development. The stream may change...
Where is the marketing that WRC very successfully uses non-fossile fuels since years! F1 still discusses it, WRC does! And it works, no problems…. The only problem that could only maybe be linked to non-fossile fuels was Fourmaux Rally2 car engine giving up in Ypres 2022. How many Hybrid problems did we have? The pro EV Mafia tells us it doesn’t work, WRC proves it does, day-in, day-out, and in competition, that is what WRC is for, that is how i.e. safety belts were invented! So do that. Err, we do that already, JUST TELL PEOPLE!
Do as Rally did since 40 years in groups 2/4/B/A, be a proving ground for new technologies and not run after the apes like sheap! But more road reality would be good for that, too?
Rally2 makers as Citroen and Skoda fear with manufacturer involvement at WRC level their cars are getting too expensive. Hmm, yeah, I see that. So let’s take Rally2, make them wider, more wings, so they look aggressive like the only plus point for Rally1. Add a much bigger air restrictor and the ECU to go with that. Back are the pops and bangs and flames from exhausts.
I am thinking on the lines of the RRC cars we had a while ago, they were not the same as WRC cars but you could easily convert one into the other. M-Sport, who depends on sales, is a perfect example: When we had RRC, M-Sport sold over 50 Fiesta WRC! The current Rally1 cars are now in their 3rd season and M-Sport has sold exactly ONE!
Bottom line, you hit the nail on the head. The problem with Rally1 is for the price of 1 Rally1 you get 4-5 Rally2 cars, but the Rally1 is exclusive to the WRC, you can’t use them in national championships, you can’t even use them in ERC, MERC, APRC etc! Think i.e. of M-Sport. They came out with a competitive Rally1 and fell more and more behind. Why? They pay huge money for these cars and they can’t sell them ever! Skoda has more money, they have built around 500 Rally2 cars now and they have sold every single one of them, because they can be used everywhere!
2 CAR TEAMS:
No, sorry, here I don’t agree with you at all!
But this perfectly fits to the Rally1 dilemma.
In 2004 we turned from 3 to 2 car teams. Hmm, what has happened to the WRC? In 2003 we had Peugeot, Ford, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Skoda, Hyundai and Citroen. Seat just left. Yes, difficult if a team is behind. But in 2003 we still had 7 makes and 3 works drivers each, makes 21! Today we have 8! Which also means, see M-Sport, there is no must to run 3 cars, you nominate 3 and the best 2 score. And talking as example Citroen 2003: if your Colin McRae crashes, you still have this totally unknown young gun called Seb Loeb who can secure some points.
Yes, I honestly doubt if Loeb would ever have had a chance in 2-car teams!! In 2002/03 he proved his point and then came 2-car teams and between Loeb/Sainz/Colin Citroen had to let one driver go. Bye bye Colin! SAD! Only a year earlier and they would have never dropped Colin in favour of Loeb, Loeb would have been a 0-times World Champ!
It’s not only him. At Hyundai they dragged in Juha Kankkunen. He may have been wasted in this car, but I felt sorry to see him go. Best example maybe again Skoda. In the 3rd car we had new CZ hope Roman Kresta or new German natl champ Matthias Kahle or new Argentinian hope Gabriel Pozzo, and where nobody else was available we had old gun Stig Blomqvist driving this 3rd car paid by his codriver Ana Goni. Every single one of them I felt sad to have them go!
And did more manufacturers come in after that? No!
We want new stars? Well, how can they prove themselves if they never get to drive the same cars, even if on smaller rallies? They may have dominated the national championship for the past 5 years and come WRC they either do it in a 2nd league car or they have to learn something completely different that they can’t even afford in the first place!
MORE EVENTS:
Not sure about that.
In my eyes if finance is a problem, and having worked in logistics before, the problem is not if you run 2 or 3 cars, if you stay 3 or 4 nights, the problem is getting there round half the planet in the first place. 15 rounds compared to 13 is a huge budget issue. If you travel there anyway, how much is it to stay an extra night, have an extra car? In management and development nothing really?
Even as a spectator, yes it was an effort to see a 1990s RAC, but an RAC that is on 2 stages a day all in Wales, well the road trip was still 2000kms, the ferry to UK still the same, it just wasn’t worth it any more! I saw 5 stages instead of 15 and saw a quarter of the country for roughly the same amount of money!
And for the fans, I currently do think the ERC is the better series anyway, add that to the 13 WRC rounds, I have 21 weekends of rallying!
Part2:
SHAKEDOWN = QUALIFYING
BRILLIANT!! I said that all the time, though. And I said before, can’t the WRC learn from ERC too? It is the same promotor after all!
It gives way more meaning to shakedown and less whinging over starting order!
POINTS SYSTEM:
Day points?
Sorry. No, again look at ERC. We had it there. It was mega confusing for reporters and fans and none of the drivers actually cared about it. And I made calculations, it actually didn’t make a difference in any single case either. Even when Chris Ingram mega excitingly won the ERC title on the last stage of the last rally, the day points did not make the difference, the differrence was that even the best rally commentator of all time, Julian Porter, spoiled the party in basically saying “I need the calculator, I tell you the result tomorrow”
Well…..
I don’t like your system…. I want the 2023 and before system back!
Hang on, after letting your video sink in, I do actually get you now!
You want the old system since years back, too! Continuity. But if the FIA absolutely wants change, then I agree your system is way better than what we have now!
The gap 1st to 2nd seems big, but the overall winner should get the most points, and in your case he/she does! Overall should mean more than days and days should mean more than a single stage!
I absolutely 100% agree!
I must admit though, I hated power stages from the moment they were invented. I think they were first tried in 2003. 20 years ago now. My criticism was they are unfair. A guy who retires stage one wins power stage with a fresh car. A guy who dominates the whole rally and retires in the power stage gets nothing at all. Doesn’t really make it interesting to fight for a power stage when the heart of rallying was always the endurance and tactics element, well, the whole story as should be?
- Maybe you can turn F1 into one lap, but Rallying is a story, isn’t it?
- For the Sunday a guy who retired Fridays has a fresh car, a guy who did the whole rally risks losing everything. A guy who has big gaps on the Sundfay doesn’t want to risk, if he has fresh tyres for the last stage it is an advantage….
See? Once again you hit the nail on the head! Just give them fresh tyres for the last stage, problem solved!
It really is that easy! Guys who fight for positions can’t win power stage. Guy who is tootling around can take 5 points. This is so wrong! And was it you who said with the new points system, we are fighting the symptoms, not the cause!?
By now I like the idea of ending the weekend on a highlight. But still, the problem we fight now with an overly complicated points system was known already 20 years ago!
MY VERDICT:
How did Loeb come up there, how Meeke, Breen, Neuville? Maybe Gardemeister, PG-Anderssson, Pozzo, Kresta were not so successfull but at least they got a chance. Even Blomqvist, KKK, even Colin went right that moment WRC went to 2-cars in 2004!
Through 3-car teams? Through IRC who didn’t have all those limitations? Where shall they come from now? Who is in line next?
Make the top cars at least similar to Rally2, make 3-car teams….
Everything else I absolutely see your thinking and you are spot on and indeed refreshing! The more of us see it that way, the more the FIA might follow?
MAYBE AS LAST EXAMPLE: RALLY LAYOUTS!
The whole thing is marketed wrong. The roads should be natural, the cars should have a road relation, we are not doing circuit racing, we are not doing rally cross, the main incrediant is ADVENTURE AND ROAD RELATION (marketing)!
I heard once F1 will naver change their schedule with Sunday 14:00 race starts because that is when people are watching.
I do not want WRC rallies to shorten. But one thing I never understood since decades, and even less so now I have a family: Who came up with the idea the power stage has to be on Sunday 12:18 (or 11:18 UK time?)
If the WRC insists on only 2 ½ days, then at least move the entire thing back by half a day!
Friday could be the half day. Friday morning everybody has to work when Friday afternoon (or better even night) could be a great teaser to get us into the mood. Saturday unchanged.
Sunday, my wife and son are huge WRC fans but I simply can’t get them to get up at 5am on their only day off per week! At the same time if the Sunday would have 10 stages instead of 3, there would be no farting about saving tyres and cars, because you still can actually make a difference!
The last stage also shouldn’t be that short, it should be a highlight in itself. And again, the ERC proves that, same as qualifying stage etc. ERC events are nail biting until the last stage without compliacted points systems and overpriced cars! We don’t need a complicated and unfair points system if the sport itself was good, and it doesn’t need much to achieve that!
Great video Joe, i do agree with your suggestions, the only thing i would have a gripe with is the points system, i do think it should go back to the old system and your idea for it is well intended but i dont think giving 1 point for the fastest driver in the Power Stage and no one else is worth it imo. The other thing would be to not have the live coverage behind a paywall but thats the case for most series unfortunately. Looking forward to the next video in 2 weeks 👀
The issue with hybrid is they're not built by each manufacturer - it's a standard unit.
As for 14-16 rounds, at the moment it's just not viable; until there are 5-6 manufacturers then 10 is a better number. Look at the WEC; they have more manufacturers, yet have only 9 rounds.....
Something you didn't mention, and gets missed is the event formats; needs overhauling - so we get a mix of 2, 3 & 4 day events. Rallying is meant to be a mix of speed & Endurance.....
Having longer events is a pretty good idea, but due to the economic climate it wouldn't be very good for costs. As much as I would love to see a 5 day Acropolis again, it is not viable in the modern day. One thing that can change though is stage lengths. We hardly ever get 50+km stages in the modern day. I think it speaks volumes when the longest stage in the WRC video game is longer than the longest stage in the current real-life WRC. Speaking of stages, why is there no Ouninpohja? Every year I check the Rally Finland itenary to see if Ouninpohja is inculded, and every time it's either completely omitted or they use a small 7 or 8 km section of it.
I think the fia/wrc needs to make rally 1 and rally 2 cars specs the same but rally 1 cars have a removable plug and play hybrid system with slighty bigger spoilers and splitters meaning and rally 2 privateer could possible rent or buy the hybrid system for a race but still have a rally 2 car once removed
In my opinion you can make sunday points 1st 5 points 2nd 3 ponins and 3rd 1 point so they can push the limits on the last + maybe (MAYBE) try to bring some sedan rally cars because they are so exictin to watch like subaru for rally3.
We haven't really seen the consequences of the new points system yet because Neuville absolutely blitzed Monte. I'm waiting to see a rally where someone doesn't win everything. My initial thought is to keep this system but add a bonus for winning overall. Have to think about it more though.
I know its boring right but i would just scrap Rally 1 and have Rally 2 as the top class. All the rally 1 teams have Rally 2 cars anyway. The cars are still fast, sound good but SO much cheaper to run. Dont change any of the technical rules, dont push up the costs. This way you can have 10s of entries for every WRC rally and the opportunity for young drivers/national drivers to maybe put in big performances against the top guys.
Also, you need to limit testing, rally 1 testing is almost non stop before events.
There are some really good points made in this video, but I have a little bit of a different idea of how it should be done (no disrespect to the original poster though)
1. Switching to Rally2 cars is a good idea, but as someone else pointed out they need to have a little extra umph. Either keep the cars the same, but use Rally1 engines, sans hybrid system, or keep the Rally2 engines, and make the aero a little bit more extravagant and effective.
2. I think the amount of rallies on the calendar is fine at the minute. However, there are some odd choices and some glaring ommissions. As good as Croatia is, its not really a classic event that we could be going to, like Corsica or Catalunya. I find Japan pretty boring. It's a pretty underwhelming season finale. Imo, the season finale should always be Wales, since it is pretty much the WRC's Interlagos. However, I wouldn't ditch Japan entirely, I would just move it to Hokkaido, since that rally was much better than the current one. Sanremo is much better than Sardegna, and it would also help bolster the lack of tarmac events we have in the minute. I would also remove a European event, probably Poland or Latvia, which are too similar to Finland, and replace it with one round in Chile, Argentina or Mexico and another in New Zealand or Australia.
3. I think the privateer teams suggestion is a very good idea and they should have their own championship, like how F1 had the Jim Clark Trophy back in the 80s for non-turbo cars. However, I have always prefered it when teams ran with three drivers as opposed to two. In 2004, the Citroen driver crisis forced Colin McRae out of the WRC, which was arguably the first catalyst for the downfall of the WRC (I know he's only one man, but if you ask anyone on the street to name a rally driver I garuntee the first one that comes to mind is Colin McRae. Like Ayrton Senna in F1, Michael Jordan in basketball and Pele in football he transcended the sport). There is also a severe lack of star personalities in the WRC. Back in the WRC's heyday, you often had 5 or 6 champions such as Auriol, Burns, McRae, Gronholm, Sainz and Kankunnen enetering any current event, as well as cult heroes like Markko Martin, Gilles Panizzi, Gigi Galli and Hari Rovanpera enetering spadorically. The only drivers worth noting now are Evans, Rovanpera, Ogier, Neuville and Tanak, and two of those only enter part time. If anything, I think teams running 4 cars would be better than running two, as it allows all the potential stars (Mikkelsen, Sordo, Lappi, O. Solberg, Greensmith, Ostberg) who don't have a full-time drive to get one.
4. I like the qualifying stage idea as well. However, I would let the drivers choose their starting spot by order of fastest time set. If a driver turns up late, I won't force them to practically give up their championship like the stewards made Colin McRae do in 2001, but I would just give them a $20,000 fine instead.
5. Contreversial perhaps, but it'll save costs and make things more interesting. Ditch shakedown. The Qualifying stage will replace the shakedown run, and I'll still let them make set-up changes on Thursday night. When SS1 begins, you are in parc-ferme, unless you need to make a safety related change, such as replacing a heavily damaged suspension part or a gaping hole in the radiator.
6. Make the tyres very hard. You have to replace soft, sticky tyres more often and they make the cars slide around less. If the drivers complain they should deal with it. Also, I'm reducing the amount of tyres used over a weekend from 28 to 16, so they effectively have 1 set of 4 for each day of the rally. If a driver runs out of tyres, they can use a maximum of 4 over the limit, but you will get a half a minute penalty for each extra tyre fitted. If you use 21 tyres you're DSQ'd.
7. I'm just going to make points very simple. 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 from 1st to 8th. It worked back in the day and made complete sense. No bonus points at all. However, so Wolf Lubricants don't get angry, the power stage won't be ditched entirely. No points will be awarded to driver, manufacturer or team championship, but the driver who wins the most power stages throughout the season will win the Wolf Lubricants Trophy. And to add at least some incentive to push the driver who wins the power stage will get one additional tyre for each power stage win. They can award it like they hand out the pole position trophy in F1, but instead of a miniature Pirelli tyre the get the real thing. They can use the additional tyre whenever they like through the season. So if a driver is in the championship battle, they could save up tyres through the whole season, and if they win 8 power stages through the season, they can really put pedal to the metal in the final round as they will have two extra sets of tyres compared to their competitors, basically meaning they can drive as hard as they like.
8. For the fun of it, private teams can run Group A, F2 kit cars and WRC 2.0 cars from the past to enter in the offical championship. How fun would it be to see Latavala in a Corolla battling Hirvonen in a Focus with Panizzi in a 306 and Makinen in an Evo VI for championship points again? As for the other categories, Rally2 in it's current form (not the new modified form as mentioned above) will be ditched. The WRC-2 championship will run to Rally3, so more manufacturers will be able to build Rally3 cars as I feel the category has untapped potential. The WRC Junior category will use Rally4 cars, as I feel the WRC needs a 2WD drive category. There will also be a WRC-GT Championship, using Rally-GT cars, at I feel that is another category that can be really exciting (just look at their popularity in Dirt Rally 2.0).
Meanwhile the FIA is watching this video and taking some reconsidering:
I think these are all great improvements, but I do think there's a problem WRC has at the moment that goes beyond the cars and points system: the two best current drivers, Rovanpera and Ogier, are not racing full-time, and the overall driver quality is lower as a result.
What I'd do is keep the "traditional" points system but bring back... drop rounds, as was tradition in both F1 and rally back in the day. Say out of the 13 rallies, only your 9 best results count. Of course running every race gives you more chances to do well, but it incentivises part time drivers like Ogier and Rovanpera to run for a title, even with a shorter schedule. Ogier, for example, ran 8 rallies last year, it'd be easier to convince him to run one more than to run 5 more. I dunno, that's my silly idea for the day.
You got the categories mixed a bit but you are right about rally1 needing to go. Still rally2 is not up to the task but an upgrede KIT can be offered on the base rally2 car to boost the look and tech on the cars. WRC needs more power and also better side protection in case of lateral impact.
I quite agree on most points (the downgrate of cars especially), but I'd say your point systeme is still too complicated. There is an art to keeping a big lead, just as some of the best football matches end in a 0-0 draw. You don't need fireworks to enjoy the sky at night (especially if you're tenting in a forest waiting for a car to come by).
Yeah, an extra set of tyres just for one stage would help REDUCING costs. But I understand it's not the same amount as running Rally1 cars. Also, I think stage wins are not really important. So 1 pt extra for each should help that as in ERC.
as far as I can tell the overall points are secured if you finish the rally, you get all the points you gathered during the days.
Hybrid is only expensive because there are two power trains and two energy stores. Getting rid of a complicated combustion engine and moving to fully electric propulsion would also drive down the cost.
I would then leave the energy store up to the manufacturers who could explore different options from fully battery electric (let Toyota show off their solid state battery tech, for example), hydrogen, or even using an ICE as an electric generator. Audi's Dakar car went a bit overboard with the latter solution with IIRC three Formula E electric drive trains and a GT3 combustion engine as a generator.
A smaller and far less complicated ethanol-based engine as generator for an electric drive train would probably be cheapest solution these days. Heck, maybe mandate that the drive train comes from the consumer car.