The Bene Gesserit, before the Butlerian Jihad: "Machines cannot be allowed to manipulate humankind's thinking and evolution!" The Bene Gesserit after the Butlerian Jihad: "That's OUR job."
Should have been the plot of the Butlerian Jihad. Machine overlords were just an invention, only nefarious humans wanting to control all of human specie and history for all time, thinking machines got in the way. Eventually, this plot fell victim of its own success at removing thinking machines when society of the new Galactic Empire regressed, eventually shattering into less powerful factions.
Their point was, that only humans are allowed to control humans, cuz machines may one day decide they don't need humans at all - that's the ever present danger gesserit probably wanted to get rid off.
I’m a huge Dune fan and Foundation fan. I’ve read the entire series 3 times, so I’m pretty critical of TH-camrs explaining these subjects . As always, you do these books justice and you get it right. I’m impressed on how thorough you are, and yet, your explanation is very understandable and explained perfectly. As a side note, I enjoy your artwork too. Keep up the fantastic work. - “Long Live The Fighters!”
@@NerdCookies How The Butlerian Jihad Should Have Begun. Machine overlords were just an invention, only nefarious humans wanting to control all of human specie and history for all time, thinking machines got in the way of their crazed plans. Eventually, this plot fell victim of its own success at removing thinking machines when society of the new Galactic Empire regressed, eventually shattering into less powerful, less malignant factions.
@@wallyhack5476 Quinn is pretty good, I also really like Alt Shift X as well. I wish In Deep Geek would cover the Dune series. His ASoIaF stuff is the best on the net IMO.
I always wondered if it's because of the AI / Robot obsession of his fellow sci-fi writers... He was telling the same story from that different perspective, as noted in the video above - AFTER humanity realized what a terrible idea it was. Like you said, he was just ahead of his time in that thinking and how to present it.
The AI war in Dune was not about Man vs. Machine, but about Man vs. Man who wanted to keep the Machine. It wasn't Machines who rose up against Man, it was Man itself that rose up against the Machine and the Man who was too attached to the Machine to let it go.
I mean he didn’t right about Terminatoresque takeovers, he wrote about humans choosing to cast off machines in order to concentrate on advancing themselves. The whole evil robot terminator stuff is a mix of fan fiction and things written after Herbert’s death which seem to contradict the core idea of why humanity left AI behind
I've always imagined that the Butlerian Jihad was inspired by the 1863 article "Darwin Among the Machines" by Samuel Butler. It's an incredibly prescient image of what humanity's delegation to machines might lead to.
Thanks for the lead. Seems like no coincidence. Love Butler's remark that his day's steam engines might be seen as "Antediluvian ancestors of the [machine] race." It's rare that we get something like a robot museum of natural sciencd gallery, where they have microwaves in place of our trilobites.
People enslaved the people with technology. The AI just perfected the process. This book was written way ahead of it's time. We are just beginning to grasp these implications on our society.
The classic approach to sci fi tends to be fairly technophobic, in spite of the abundance of technology in most sci fi. A big reason technophobia is popular has to do with many readers' poor education in scientific advancement.
Asimov and others had already explored this theme before Herbert did. For example, in Asimov's Robot novels AI was used exclusively by the decadent Spacers, while the poorer Earthers were scared of losing their jobs to robots.
@Hypatia Birth/death year inconsistencies are annoying, but hardly the worst of those error-riddled books. Try Paul being born on Kaitain and running offworld to the circus with Bronso of Ix when he was 12! It's stated clearly in Dune that Paul was born on Caladan and never left until the crossing to Arrakis when he was 15.
@@Shan_Dalamani and you believe the propaganda of the Princess Consort and Muad'dib's fanatic legions? It's not like Leto II wrote fake histories for shits and giggles or anything🙃🙃🙃
And sad this misconception about this Hebert original idea is still a thing right now, there should be a video about the stereotypical psedo-scifi tropes made up by his son to make it commercially appealing towards psedo-intellectual midwit nerds who likes jargon nonsense to felt smarter to there pathetic sad life's.
I always found it an interesting plot device that the human mind surpasses computers within the Dune universe. In the far future its the human mind, not technology which drives humanity.
@@Fridaey13txhOktober The worm oil has benefits at least, that cannot be gained from anything else e.g. the extension of life. If something like that existed today, all the wealthy people would be scrambling for it.
That’s what I love about DUNE. It’s set so far in the future, many other works of Science Fiction (minus ones with Aliens) can still precede the DUNE Saga.
@@slowemm I would say thats ideology. Because 1) who says this is bad and 2) it may be used in a diffrent way. Imagine not using a calculator, because they build AI back then. And even death sentence ppl for it. But creating spice creatures is somehow okayish? This beings are not even humans anymore.
I have read and re-read both sets countless times over the past fifty years or so [me 76] I can never get enough information and or interpretation of the Dune universe so thank you for these little videos. I was awed by the original novels but when I discovered and read the prequel novels I was blown away. Even though I had already re-read the originals I just had to go back and read them again; this time with a better understanding. Just as you can not compare apples to oranges you can like them equally. I am not a die-hard Dune fan devoted to finding every little scrap of information, however I appreciate what I find. So thanks again for the time and effort it took to bring us these little gems.
@@jerzbouy1 I liked it much better the second viewing. The first viewing I was looking for everything I loved in the books, being disappointed by what wasn't there, thinking of what I'd have focused on if I'd have directed it. I knew it was visually stunning and had great acting, but it was tainted by my thoughts and expectations. The second viewing I was able to just appreciate it for what it was, and that was incredible.
The KJA/BH books have not been around for 50 years (thank goodness!). In all those pre/se/interquels, they managed to create ONE character I liked. So of course they killed him off in an egregiously gruesome manner.
@@Shadow__133 that was the best part. The message was to do your own work for your great answer. - o please o great iphone give me my great answer.... example
@@Shadow__133 You mean the KJA/BH books were a torture to read. The others, at least Dune, is a literary classic that's never been out of print and has been taught in schools and universities for decades. The only reason to discuss KJA/BH's books in a literature course would be as an example how NOT to write.
The core dune novels are great in that they provide sketches for the reader to imaging the previous time without filling in the details f the event. The supporting novels are good but I always start with how I imagined these times.
@@9thebear Yeah, they're pretty bad. The original books were deep, engaging, well-written, and left enough to the imagination to leave you wanting more. The followups were just standard pulp sci fi silliness
Yeah, I always felt the supporting novels were good, just not great like the original story. It is interesting because EU novels read like Frank's original Dune short stories before he refined it and gave it depth. Like in the short stories spice was an actual drug that was looked down upon by society like heroine, then in the novels he reframed it as a sort of super consciousness enhancer that was necessary for society to function at all levels. I think Brian and Kevin did a decent job with fleshing out how this came about but it is obvious it was their first stab at trying to create a story with depth. They just tried to do too much too quickly and should have refined their craft before delving too deep.
Man, Dune’s lore is so dense. They’ve got everything you could want in Sci-Fi. They’ve even got an AI Robot War in their ancient past, _and they’re making a comeback._
I love this facet of Herbert's Dune universe. It was a new and unique take on an old sci-fi trope. He explored the long term effects it had on human society in his universe.
Worse than that. In the original novel, Duncan Idaho set a booby trap using a laz-gun arranged to fire at a Holtzman shield (a very bad combo) with a clockwork timer for a delayed triggering. While it worked, other members of Duke Leto's men were NOT happy with the solution, chiding Idaho for skirting the rules stated in the Orange Catholic Bible. Yup, something as innocuous as a freaking "egg timer" was a serious "grey area" of morality in their society. Whereas a remote device, under direct human supervision, a transmitter and a receiver to trigger the firing would have been completely Kosher.
@@Redfern42 Which doesn't actually make a lot of sense considering how ornithopters have to work. Sure the human says "I want to go that way at that speed" with the controls, but the thopter has to have computers to determine how to move the wings and control surfaces to actually do that. So really, its the computer flying the machine with the human just telling it where to go. The machine is deciding the best way to move the wings to accomplish the objective it was set. All an egg timer bomb is is a human saying go boom in x minutes. No decisions on the part of the machine at all.
@@HIMPDahak I think what they mean by thinking machines are the machines that are able to make complex decisions and AI. A thopter cannot fly on its own so things like ships cars etc are okay. But things that are able to operate on their own without human intervention are illegal.
@@jaythekid4728 If that was the case navigators wouldn't be needed for highliners nor would mentats be needed for general administration. Before the Butlerian Jihad, space was colonized using computers to calculate safe paths for foldspace travel. It only became so dangerous without a navigator because they banned navigation computers. And mentats are essentially walking databases. You don't have to rely on something as rare and expensive as the spice if basic computing is still available.
@@jaythekid4728 that doesnt make sence to allow ai on ships as its the whole reason the story exists is the fact thry cant use said ship AI's to travel
I understand those who do not like the expanded Dune novels by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson. Their writing is nowhere near the quality of Frank Herbert. Even though I do enjoy them, I do have to roll my eyes at some of their plot lines. For those not wanting to waste their time reading all of their novels, I do recommend just two. Those are "Paul of Dune" which tells more of the story of Paul during his rise to power during the Fremen jihad years and "The Winds of Dune" that takes place in the interim period after the blind Paul walked out into the desert at the end of "Dune Messiah" and prior to the "Children of Dune" story.
@@jackkennard4539 Perhaps you have already done so, but those interested in Duke Leto should read the three Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson books House Atreides, House Harkonnen and House Corrino that include the story of the young Duke Leto prior to the new The Duke of Caladan series.
@@hucklebuck411 I read one of the books. I them promised myself that I'd never, ever make myself read another. I've kept that promise to myself and I'm very grateful that I made it. My local Book Cycle ( 3 books a day and pay what you can afford) regularly has them on it's shelf and that's where I leave them. The video hits the nail on the head in its description of the Butler Jihad. Frank Herbert's books give a broad outline that allows us to understand his world at he time the story takes place. The extended universe is an attempt to grab our cash knowing how much we loved Frank Herbert's creation and how we sometimes wish there'd been more of it.
@@chrisgibson5267 given it was his kids work one would think maybe just maybe he using his dads notes had good things in mind as well. And like all books to each his own I feel like that about the later Dune books. First one great downhill from there till it culminates in the space hooker nazi's near the end.
While there are multiple interpretations: I do like the theme that the start of the Jihad was not panic started by an open robot revolt that nearly led to human extinction, but that artificial intelligence had slowly been allowed to enslave humanity on its own.
Really? I prefer the idea that humans chose to abandon and kill sentient AI’s in order to get back in touch with themselves and advance as a species, rather than being forced to do so just to fill the roles of the evil robots they were forced to conquer. It’s a very boring and played out trope, found in Terminator, 40k and endless other sci fi. The fanfics took a unique vision of man vs machine and turned it into a cookie cutter story.
The Bene Gesserit voice is usually portrayed as a weapon or means of control. This sister's narration stopped a panic attack today. Voice can be used to calm or redirect one's focus from mental darkness. The Sisterhood gains loyalty from the people (control) many ways. A Truthsayer would confirm what I have said. Nerd Cookies {Sisterhood} has gained my gratitude yet again.
The thing I never fully understood in DUNE lore was if it is prohibited to have (produce, evolve, design etc.) only thinking machines meaning machines able to make decisions of their own (AI or semi AI, computer learning etc.) or generaly all thinking machines (devices) meaning anything able to "compute", meaning anything we nowadays call "chip" or "computer". Because in the lore there are so many things which are in my opinion not possible to work (be controled, operated) on analog/mechanical basis. I am not able to understand how you would control Ornitophere with 6-8 wings only by analog device, not even talking about engine, rpm, fuel injections and other things related to such a complicated machinery. Well, okay, I am able to accept some technolgical evolvment, improved materials and so on, that improve many aspects making this possible, but still. Even more prevalent with spaceships - the computing of aproach angle in atmosphere entry, orbit orientation or even interplanetary/planet-moon flights (which if I am correct are noble houses able to perform even without spacing guild), giant vehicles like Spice Harvesters, or small devices like hunter seeker which is supposed to be analog (?!) device able to be controled wirelessly with some antigravity/floating/propeler device and with analog (!) controls. The wireles control itself supposes something must proces the wireless (digital?) signal into (supposed) analog oparation of the hunter seeker? If I understand correctly, the hunter seeker is controled by suit, which means wireless comunication between hunter seeker and the suit both ways. Holtzman shield generator is producing shield on analog basis? Or is it described as using some law of fysics that doesnt need to be produced (aka gravity or reflection)? Can anyone direct me to some explanation? I didnt read more than Dune book and its some time now. I understand mentats role, but there are no mentats in all the devices. Most importantly: Is tamagotchi a thinking machine?
I think franks only referring to a real god like AI. Not what we have in our current world. Nothing is even close to AI. They’re still just math algorithms. Nothing even close to sentient thought. Bacteria we create has more sentient thought than the “DUmb AIs we have now. So I’d say most tech would have binary computers of some sort. Just nothing getting into the realm of its own thought
I'd like to add that Ms. Madsen is still a handsome woman. Still, I must say that at this place and time, her formidable beauty was in full force. Add to that the fantastic work of the hair, makeup and wardrobe departments and Princess Irulan was just a masterpiece.
This is one of the most overlooked parts of Dune, and you can find the concept in a lot of fiction, Star Trek (Piccard) and Star Wars (1-3 of the trilogy), obviously The Matrix BSG and Terminator, so it's a very common idea, I think it also explains why in space dramas people want "artifacts" or ships that are old but better than anything new.
Eh, the literary tradition of old = powerful/better goes way back. Ancient myths have magical artifacts created long(er) ago by the gods for example. The best things aren't now; we live in the now and experience the now with all the good and all the bad. Its boring and normal. The distant past though, well we can imagine that however we want to in our fiction and it won't seem wrong even when it is. No surprise that trope makes it into sci-fi as well as much a part of literary culture as it has been.
Thanks for the great vid. The most prophetic stuff about that novel, my favourite (with the Silmarillion), is the idea of not the Machines, but Machines used by Men to enslave others...
What was never clear in the novels was *who,* exactly, was enforcing the restrictions of the Butlerian Jihad 10,000+ years later. Factions such as the Spacing Guild, the Bene Gesserit and the Bene Tleilaxu were all sufficiently secretive that they could have been flouting the restrictions quite freely. The same holds true for many Landsraad houses. We never see any kind of inspectors or enforcers doing things like auditing the factions or the houses. It's hard to believe that "it's a religious commandment" alone was enough to make all of humanity comply in perpetuity. Ironic that a crusade intended to liberate human from impersonal control simply resulted in most of humanity being ruled by a minority of nobles, priestesses, navigators and other powerful but out of touch people, while everyone below them was put into a structured caste system designed and run by those at the top!
Because oligarchies will do anything to keep power and oppress people under rigidly vertical hierarchies, because that's their work, not that of machines. Besides, do we know more about the circumstances of the Butlerian Jihad than Bene Gesserit propaganda? Maybe technological development was bringing humanity to fully automated, luxury space communism, and heralds of an status quo that refused to be rendered obsolete, decided to stoke fears like they pretty much do nowadays as well. Damn Herbert was a fucking genius, that guy was definitely onto something
Considering the described attacks of the Emperor using Sardukar, and the heavy use of spies and subterfuge, I imagine there was a lot of fear keeping people from dabbling in advanced computers or machinery.
I never got the ban on “thinking machines.” It was if all computers were banned and not just AIs. However, much of the technology shown would be impossible without some level of computer technology being employed.
We built the atomic bomb with analog computers. The transistor wasn't even invented until a couple years later. The first software code a couple years after that. We had rockets, planes, jets, automobiles, etc., all before the first digital computer. Look at some old patents before 1950. It's hard to believe that people engineered that stuff before there was a computer. Just pencil and paper. Machines are already taking their toll on us. My point is, imagine we were stuck with analog for 10,000 years. We'd still be able to create some amazing things. The whole industrial revolution happened without computers ;)
@@qdllc It is easy to forget. I'm 50 years old. I remember when there was no internet, cell phones, or personal computers in the house. I forget many people DONT remember living like that. I could probably give up everything except the GPS. Please dont make me go back to the days of having maps under my front seat... lol
Keep in mind the book was published in 1965. MOSFETs (compact transistors) were invented in like 1960. The CMOS process for making integrated circuits was invented only a couple of years ago. Hell, the Intel 4004 microprocessor wouldn't be released until 1970. Moore's Law had just been proposed.
I like how the creation of a Kwisatz Haderach is a perfect analogue of creating a god-tier AI. They expected to control it at all? Even be able to understand its motivations? It would be as inscrutable as humans from the perspective of an ant!
Ever since I saw the first Transformer movies, I immediately saw the Butlerian Jihad in my mind. Now hollywood could do these novels with special effects now. I realize these novels have weak writing but to entertain an audience with a movie would introduce a younger generation to good scifi. Tired of Dc comics and marvel movies. Hopefully the new Dune movie will break the barrier and give us a more cerebral storyline we need in the theaters.
Discovered your channel last weekend, not only do you provide tons of informations about a complex topic like Dune in a more than pleasent way, also your videos have a ASMR effect on me.
Scary , this could be our future. Life imitating art , or art imitating life . It's enough for me to imagine actual life heading down a similar time stream. Hope it's more like star trek though.
When it comes to B. Herb and Anderson's version of the Butlerian Jihad, all you have to remember is that they couldn't even get the dates for it right. They had to do a lot of backtracking and twisting to make theirs fit after people pointed it out.
Honestly, I loved the prequels. Think it was house Harkonnen, but it started out with a massive planetary bombardment from the machines. Don’t want to ruin it, but that battle is why Xavier turned to the spicy sauces for his food :) If they would put that sequence into film, it would dwarf some of the most intense Sci-fi to date. Using holzman drives without navigators because it takes months to travel otherwise… Norma cenva and the beginnings of the guild. Great stuff.
If you're fan of Game of Thrones, Battlestar Galactica, Terminator and/or Starship Troopers, I'm sure you definitely enjoy the Legends of Dune trilogy, i.e. 1). Dune: The Butlerian Jihad. 2). Dune: The Machine Crusade. 3). Dune: The Battle of Corrin. If you're a fast reader or have access to audiobooks, I recommend you give it a try!
@@toh786 I'm a fan of all of those and I'm a very fast reader as I guess are most people here. I'll give them a read but at the moment i'm flying through the Stormlight archive and they may take a while, big books, very big books of a most excellent quality.
I always thought the jihad was less liberation from machines and and more desire from the sisterhood and spacers guild to have control over the universe and to create a jihad that had no real reason to exist (not including the prequel novels).
The issue was that the BG and Guild were not in control of the thinking machines. They knew that whomever had control had power over how man thinks. They wanted the power to control man themselves so enacted a false flag situation to spark the revolt.
@@adrenalinevan "The Thinking Machines not only enslaved you but actually believed that you the plebes also had rights and paid you credits for your labor!" "Horrible!" "Heresy!" Space 1984.
Brilliant. I am teaching my son about Samuel Butler and this video was a good introduction to the influence of his ideas in the creative realm but also perhaps in real life if we are not careful. And we are not careful.
Another fine video. I have not read the Dune Encyclopaedia and find it's reason for the Jihad more elegant than Brian Herbert's. However I feel his tale of enslavement, cruelty and genocide at the hands of machines/Titans gives a stronger motive to never return to machine autonomy. I also found Brian/Kevin's depiction of the spite, self loathing and contradictory zealotry of the main jihad protagonists effective. How these illogical zealots could create phobias of technology and technological societies that reached into Frank Herbert's universe millennia later.
Illogical zealots should never have been able to win on their own. A sinister conspiracy trying to impose their agenda on all of humanity going awry would at least be possible.
@@Fridaey13txhOktober the general populous were resentful at having lost so much through war and seduced by a charismatic leader attacking an easy target; somewhere in the 1930s comes to mind. Throughout history religiosity has incited great feats of carnage so no great leap in imagination is required in BHs books.
“Easy target” that so happened to be at the forefront of the Bolshevik rebellion, the Frankfurt school, Sexual and Moral degeneracy, and economic exploitation?
The thing is, dune is a raypunk universe, in the 2021 film seems that they has chosen a familiar setting instead of a completely alien armors and Ships and make their society entirely alien with mentats and bene geserit and later with tleilaxu, everything seems so clean and iron mannish that never make we thing that technology is made another way
@J Zig I agree absolutely. It's amazing how many people don't want to read the book. Just wait for the movie... Thinking machines weren't sentient lifeforms like in BH's books. They were predator drones with pretty good algorithms (just as a reference to our technology). They probably acted autonomously by their programming and sensors. I imagine something like a kill switch didn't work or the people who knew how to activate kill switch wound up dead somehow. Either way, feeding an algorithm and sensors into a drone that can refuel itself ought to be banned now in our reality... just saying
This story gives me major cyberpunk vibes and in my mind while reading it , I get major Matrix vibes mixed with asimov's foundation and robot series. Dune truly is the gift that keeps on giving since I read the first book randomly. One of the best decisions I ever made and it rekindled my love for reading.(which has been absent for 20 years)
I wanted to like Pinky and the Brian's "Butlerian Jihad" trilogy. I really, really wanted to. But Omnius and the Cymeks ruined it for me. The whole "Synchronized Worlds" implementation ruined it for me. I get what they were going for, but it just didn't fit for me. It turned the conflict into an Empire vs Empire conflict, not a Human vs Machines. "Everyone from (This Planet) is Good, everyone from (That Planet) is Bad." and it was just a coincidence that the (That Planet) was ruled by "Machines". It could have been Aliens, and conflict would have been virtually identical. It was a Struggle against an OUTSIDE Foe, not an INSIDE Foe. The Frank Hebert Butlerian Jihad was about humanity realizing it had given away its freedom to Thinking Machines - and Thinking Machines were EVERYWHERE. It was a realization that ANY machine capable of human levels of computational power were inevitably going to be a threat to them. You couldn't control it, you couldn't keep the machines to just a near-human level, or to be able to do just certain computations. Humans always look to tinker, to improve things - and as long as there were machines like that, they would be a threat. That Toaster in the kitchen that could compute the kind of bread in it to know that "Setting 3" would get one result for Sourdough and another result for Whole Wheat bread? It would be upgraded by some well-meaning human so that it would be able to tell what time of day it was, and adjust the settings to make the perfect bread for that time of day. Then someone would add a sensor to it, and it could tell when its owner would be hungry enough to need the toast now. And that sensor would be upgraded so that it could tell when the Owner would want to spread Jam over the toast instead of peanut butter. Someone would upgrade it again so it could tell how healthy the owner was, so it would know NOT to toast the bread in a way that could entice the Owner to put Jam on it (to avoid the sugars!). And then upgraded again to work with the Fridge and Cupboard (you've got a Smart Toaster, you're gonna have other Smart devices too) so that they could order healthy food for the Owner. And... suddenly the Toaster (along with the other machines in the house) are deciding what the Humans in the house can eat and when they can eat, and the Humans just go along with it because they've been conditioned to do it. But they're doing so based on the programming of some human in an office on another entire planet, and people in that office are having their own little fight amongst themselves to decide what is "Healthy" and what is not, and whichever faction is winning gets to set the upgrades for the Toasters to implement. And even then, it was unclear if the Winners were actually the ones in charge because... they had Smart Toasters too! Who was in control? Were the humans programming the toasters to program the humans, or were the toasters programming the humans to program the toasters to program the humans? It's not about humans LITERALLY giving their power to Machines, like Xerxes did in the Pinky and the Brian books. It's not about having some Supreme Single Machine that decides to Rule Over All Humans. Really, it's not about the MACHINES at all - it's about Humanity being reliant on them, about humanity relying on things outside of themselves and putting too much faith in their creations. The Bulterian Jihad is about that, in regards to Machines. Paul is a story about the same general problem, except with that reliance being in a single Human Being - Paul. His Empire turns him into a God and does terrible things in his name because they let the Jihad do all their "Thinking" for them, and he's not strong enough to follow the Golden Path to stop it. God Emperor Leto sees that the lesson of the Bulterian Jihad isn't merely about Machines, but about putting all Humanity's "faith" into any single source (Machines, Paul, etc.) and has the courage to try to break Humanity free. Heretics and Chapterhouse seemed to be about the same basic thing, only this time, instead of Machines or Religion, it was Biological Creations (Futars, Free Face Dancers) and Mental Conditioning (sexual imprinting by BOTH the Honored Matres and Bene Gesserit) and something else. Something we never actually saw because Frank never finished his Book 7.
Ya'll do realize that instead of becoming reliant on machines we just became reliant on biological 'machines' spice addicts, mutant monstrosities, and hermaphroditic face changing slaves that aren't even really human anymore....axiotl tanks filled with gholas of people who died a thousand years ago...etc etc...so if you wanna call that an improvement over machines...sure whatever.
@@sebaszwarc6028 Sorry, 94% of humanity, you just have to die because we're afraid of pocket calculators! Sorry remaining 97% of the 6% of survivors, you will have to be poverty-stricken peons! You are so gracious to just allow this to happen!
Really appreciate your take that whether someone prefers the "canon" or "non-canon" version of the details, the intent is what matters. The point is that the jihad happened and we now live in a universe without thinking machines. Done. How we got there is just for fun.
In Brian Herbert's prequels it's not AI that rebels, it's humans that have downloaded themselves into immortal and powerful machine bodies and want to rule all. House Atreides is directly descended from their gene pool.
Please read Erewhon by Samuel Butler. In this work you'll find much which influenced Frank Herbert's world building. Here you'll find not only the name Butler, but also preborn memory, the fate of the prescient, the seed of the houses of learning as a response to a jihad, and more.
This is how you preserve important information, and especially warnings. Encode it in religion. Data is frail. Books rot, electronics fail, digital data becomes corrupted. But make it a matter of faith and people will pass on the information for thousands of years
One of the things Dune is about is a cautionary tale concerning an over-reliance on technology & finite resources, because those things can be manipulated by politics. Which, is astoundingly prescient, all things considered.
I personally would pinch a bit from Game of Thrones and briefly show an invented character executed for owning something as simple as a calculating device. Perhaps Thufir could detect it.
i think the different interpretations of the butlerian jihad all connect on a level that anyone who read the original series first then read the prequels would find their own understanding of the tremendous event in future history its a great story i love to revisit many and many times overat times i wanted so much more too im as bad as a spacing guildsman wanting the spice and the dune series as a whole is the spice. the spice must flow. and on a side note i think the matrix was inspired by this grand event how machines literally taken over everything humanity was doing and finally was defeated by humanity
I second that, and would specifically love to hear your guys' theoretical ideas of what might've been in the final original *Dune* novel 😁(other than what Herbert said about it leading to a system that resembles democracy) How would that come about with the circumstances and characters we're left with? What do you think was happening/in the works? 😁😁😁😁😁... I know.. it's a tall order.... but... pretty please 😁🙏😉 lol. You're awesome, thanks for all the content. ❤ these nerd cookies are delicious! 🍪🥛
These books started so well, the first one Buttlerian Jihad had so many great ideas but it went downhill with the second book and the last one was almost unreadable.
@d R I think he is talking about the Buttlerian Jihad series from Brian and Kevin. Yeah the first book was course but intriguing, then they rushed the last two of the trilogy without improving their storytelling; so while the overall ideas were great, the delivery was sloppy and shallow. God Emperor is in my opinion the pinnacle of the series, though I do love the Norma Cenva and Erasmus story arcs in the EU, even if they are a bit crude and rushed at times.
@@Steve_in_NJ But Brother Steve, are not the vast majority of people accessing social media with their phones? I see phones as an integral part of the technology domination that we are now living under. The final straw will be when AI takes over completely and we will be slaves to it's insidious power and vast presence in every facet of our lives. I mean what's next....Smart Toilet Paper to monitor and assist you wiping your ass?
@@jackkennard4539 Your number will be JK264 and branded on your forehead...."JK264, this is Central Control. Get off the toilet! You've been sitting there for almost 12 minutes. We are now starting the shower, you have 5 minutes. Get your ass in there and then get to bed.....standing by."
I've always been a cautious fan of Brian and Kevin's work, there are things the did masterfully, like the backstory of Erasmus and Gilbertus, and others that could have been handled with much more finesse like Serina Butler's story and the origin of the Bene Gesserit sisterhood (which was Very jumpy, but I like the gist of what they were aiming at). The guild navigator backstory was amazing, but it's "final acts" felt rushed and it would have been better if it were a book in and of itself in between cymek / machine battle books instead of being told concurrently with them. Like the changes Norma Cenva would undergo I felt should take the course of a book considering how she was essentially unlocking a new pathway for human evolution and perception.
Give it some time and Brian Herbert & Kevin J. Anderson will probably write a novel or novels about Norma Cenva; after all, she eventually became for all intents and purposes immortal, becoming the Oracle of the Navigators, still living at the end of the Dune saga as completed by those authors.
Same. I've never been able to get into their stories. I see them as the Rogue One effect. They take a minor and insignificant line from the original books and try to squeeze a book trilogy out of it. They also seem like lazy writing which is why we get worms emerging from a glassed Arakis and ultra spice from aquatic worms! I understand no one will write like Frank did, but come on, gohlas of all the characters from all the other books? Really? Just lazy.
@@briancaldwell871 Leto II controlled all the spice in the universe for thousands of years. Now, BH controls all the cheese. There is just no defense for the cheese that BH/KJA cultivated into their books. I can give a pass to writing styles. Water worms... lol Everyone's a ghola... lol The oracle of time... lol It's cheese all the way down!
@@captainhoratius8192 Norma wasn’t hunchedback, she was just a dwarf. Personally I saw what the Titans and the machines became after centuries. Their take over started with the whole “once men turned their thinking to machines in the hopes that this would set them free” and as time went on, AI went the way of the cylons
Always enjoy these vids, your cute voice makes them better to listen to. My gf has not read Dune yet but I bought her the kindle vers for when she gets to it. Keep up the good work.
The Bene Gesserit, before the Butlerian Jihad: "Machines cannot be allowed to manipulate humankind's thinking and evolution!"
The Bene Gesserit after the Butlerian Jihad: "That's OUR job."
Hypocrisy is the founding nature of humanity.
Should have been the plot of the Butlerian Jihad.
Machine overlords were just an invention, only nefarious humans wanting to control all of human specie and history for all time, thinking machines got in the way.
Eventually, this plot fell victim of its own success at removing thinking machines when society of the new Galactic Empire regressed, eventually shattering into less powerful factions.
Their point was, that only humans are allowed to control humans, cuz machines may one day decide they don't need humans at all - that's the ever present danger gesserit probably wanted to get rid off.
@@Hokunin the machines were being controlled by people of high power and position.
They were trying to ensure the human races survival via the golden path
Everyone: You’ve freed us!
Bene Gesserit: Oh, I wouldn’t say “free”. More like… “under new management” 😏
I’m a huge Dune fan and Foundation fan. I’ve read the entire series 3 times, so I’m pretty critical of TH-camrs explaining these subjects . As always, you do these books justice and you get it right. I’m impressed on how thorough you are, and yet, your explanation is very understandable and explained perfectly. As a side note, I enjoy your artwork too. Keep up the fantastic work. - “Long Live The Fighters!”
Thank you so much!
the dune series is a masterpiece
@@NerdCookies How The Butlerian Jihad Should Have Begun.
Machine overlords were just an invention, only nefarious humans wanting to control all of human specie and history for all time, thinking machines got in the way of their crazed plans.
Eventually, this plot fell victim of its own success at removing thinking machines when society of the new Galactic Empire regressed, eventually shattering into less powerful, less malignant factions.
Thoughts on quinn?
@@wallyhack5476 Quinn is pretty good, I also really like Alt Shift X as well. I wish In Deep Geek would cover the Dune series. His ASoIaF stuff is the best on the net IMO.
Herbert was WAY ahead of time writing about AI takeover. I thought Terminator series was the first introduction to this idea for me.
Dude, Fritz Lang - Metropolis. It’s 100 years old and was exploring the same ideas.
I always wondered if it's because of the AI / Robot obsession of his fellow sci-fi writers... He was telling the same story from that different perspective, as noted in the video above - AFTER humanity realized what a terrible idea it was. Like you said, he was just ahead of his time in that thinking and how to present it.
The AI war in Dune was not about Man vs. Machine, but about Man vs. Man who wanted to keep the Machine. It wasn't Machines who rose up against Man, it was Man itself that rose up against the Machine and the Man who was too attached to the Machine to let it go.
@@sygmarvexarion7891 This is something I've been pointing out on Dune forums and social media for over 15 years now.
I mean he didn’t right about Terminatoresque takeovers, he wrote about humans choosing to cast off machines in order to concentrate on advancing themselves. The whole evil robot terminator stuff is a mix of fan fiction and things written after Herbert’s death which seem to contradict the core idea of why humanity left AI behind
I've always imagined that the Butlerian Jihad was inspired by the 1863 article "Darwin Among the Machines" by Samuel Butler. It's an incredibly prescient image of what humanity's delegation to machines might lead to.
Cheers bro. Sounds intriguing gonna check it out
Thanks for the lead. Seems like no coincidence.
Love Butler's remark that his day's steam engines might be seen as "Antediluvian ancestors of the [machine] race."
It's rare that we get something like a robot museum of natural sciencd gallery, where they have microwaves in place of our trilobites.
Just seen your comment and went off to read the article, which I'd never even heard of before. Fascinating stuff. Thanks!
People enslaved the people with technology. The AI just perfected the process. This book was written way ahead of it's time. We are just beginning to grasp these implications on our society.
The classic approach to sci fi tends to be fairly technophobic, in spite of the abundance of technology in most sci fi. A big reason technophobia is popular has to do with many readers' poor education in scientific advancement.
@@RendezvousWithRama Burn!
Hopefully we don’t over-course correct and make more, but different problems
Asimov and others had already explored this theme before Herbert did. For example, in Asimov's Robot novels AI was used exclusively by the decadent Spacers, while the poorer Earthers were scared of losing their jobs to robots.
@Sketcho Fink lol You're quoting the Unabomber.
I came for the ASMR narration, stayed for the artwork and chill tunes.
People think of the Butlerian Jihad like 'Terminator', when it really seems to be more like the aftermath of 'Wall-e'.
@Hypatia Birth/death year inconsistencies are annoying, but hardly the worst of those error-riddled books. Try Paul being born on Kaitain and running offworld to the circus with Bronso of Ix when he was 12! It's stated clearly in Dune that Paul was born on Caladan and never left until the crossing to Arrakis when he was 15.
It was more like the Matrix... :B
@@Shan_Dalamani and you believe the propaganda of the Princess Consort and Muad'dib's fanatic legions?
It's not like Leto II wrote fake histories for shits and giggles or anything🙃🙃🙃
Yea, I'm very dissappointed first time knowing it. But then again, this is actually more convincing/ logical than AI rebellion
And sad this misconception about this Hebert original idea is still a thing right now, there should be a video about the stereotypical psedo-scifi tropes made up by his son to make it commercially appealing towards psedo-intellectual midwit nerds who likes jargon nonsense to felt smarter to there pathetic sad life's.
"What Was The Butlerian Jihad?"
When everyone's butlers rose up, led by Alfred Pennyworth, and waged a holy war against their employers.
We should have seen it coming with Geoffrey's continuous insubordination and jokes making fun of uncle Phill's weight.
If anyone could lead such an uprising, it would be him.
It was also the result of the wrongful accusation of the butler and the candlestick in the historic Cluedo dynasty
Tea and crumpets sir?...No, so you have chosen death sir.
All Hail Benson!! ('70's tv show 'Soap')
I always found it an interesting plot device that the human mind surpasses computers within the Dune universe. In the far future its the human mind, not technology which drives humanity.
Granted, the human mind is helped by drugs..spice, sappho juice etc
@@damianrives563 yes, but that's part of the fun 😄
@@damianrives563
Don't forgest selesctive breeding and Bene Tlelax engenering.
Not sure we could build AI to replicate how our synapses build and connect? But yes to managing and manipulating data.
Would have been simpler if Thinking Machine won and just banned humans from doing AI themselves.
I find it interesting that this war broke out over reliance on AI, but in DUNE, there is addiction to spice. Both are examples of control loss.
"We are finally, finalllly free!"
"Wanna sell that freedom for some worm oil??! I know it sounds w..."
"Shut up and take my money!"
@@Fridaey13txhOktober The worm oil has benefits at least, that cannot be gained from anything else e.g. the extension of life. If something like that existed today, all the wealthy people would be scrambling for it.
@@wolfferoni maybe it does, how would we know?
That’s what I love about DUNE. It’s set so far in the future, many other works of Science Fiction (minus ones with Aliens) can still precede the DUNE Saga.
If you love something set so far in the future try warhammer 40k, it's pretty good
@@enzoiswanto7859 Wh40k's based off Dune
@@JohnDoe-bh2lp i never say the opposite..
This is so fascinating. Thousands of years in the future, humanity could make computers if they wished but they don’t for ideological reasons.
@Lord Vader If the Amish could fold space....
@@Alondro77 the already kinda can
Not just ideological reasons, it's about machines having too much power and reliance on them causing destruction of humankind.
@@slowemm I would say thats ideology. Because 1) who says this is bad and 2) it may be used in a diffrent way.
Imagine not using a calculator, because they build AI back then. And even death sentence ppl for it. But creating spice creatures is somehow okayish? This beings are not even humans anymore.
I have read and re-read both sets countless times over the past fifty years or so [me 76] I can never get enough information and or interpretation of the Dune universe so thank you for these little videos. I was awed by the original novels but when I discovered and read the prequel novels I was blown away. Even though I had already re-read the originals I just had to go back and read them again; this time with a better understanding. Just as you can not compare apples to oranges you can like them equally. I am not a die-hard Dune fan devoted to finding every little scrap of information, however I appreciate what I find. So thanks again for the time and effort it took to bring us these little gems.
@d R Haven't got to see it yet. Chances are I will like even though it got mixed reviews. But then you can't please everyone.
@@jerzbouy1 I liked it much better the second viewing. The first viewing I was looking for everything I loved in the books, being disappointed by what wasn't there, thinking of what I'd have focused on if I'd have directed it. I knew it was visually stunning and had great acting, but it was tainted by my thoughts and expectations. The second viewing I was able to just appreciate it for what it was, and that was incredible.
The KJA/BH books have not been around for 50 years (thank goodness!).
In all those pre/se/interquels, they managed to create ONE character I liked. So of course they killed him off in an egregiously gruesome manner.
I always enjoy these Dune videos. It’s interesting to watch content for a franchise I don’t really know much about.
Especially since the books were a torture to read.
@@Shadow__133 that was the best part. The message was to do your own work for your great answer. - o please o great iphone give me my great answer.... example
@@ttebroc236 Not so sure about you, Im here for the easy o great iphone youtube short answer. Would never read Dune again.
@@Shadow__133 You mean the KJA/BH books were a torture to read. The others, at least Dune, is a literary classic that's never been out of print and has been taught in schools and universities for decades. The only reason to discuss KJA/BH's books in a literature course would be as an example how NOT to write.
The core dune novels are great in that they provide sketches for the reader to imaging the previous time without filling in the details f the event. The supporting novels are good but I always start with how I imagined these times.
The supporting novels are practically unreadable. Pure trash.
@@9thebear Yeah, they're pretty bad. The original books were deep, engaging, well-written, and left enough to the imagination to leave you wanting more. The followups were just standard pulp sci fi silliness
Yeah, I always felt the supporting novels were good, just not great like the original story. It is interesting because EU novels read like Frank's original Dune short stories before he refined it and gave it depth. Like in the short stories spice was an actual drug that was looked down upon by society like heroine, then in the novels he reframed it as a sort of super consciousness enhancer that was necessary for society to function at all levels. I think Brian and Kevin did a decent job with fleshing out how this came about but it is obvious it was their first stab at trying to create a story with depth. They just tried to do too much too quickly and should have refined their craft before delving too deep.
Man, Dune’s lore is so dense. They’ve got everything you could want in Sci-Fi. They’ve even got an AI Robot War in their ancient past, _and they’re making a comeback._
They do not have an AI robot war. KJA/BH made that up because they don't understand what Frank wrote about the Jihad.
Spoilers!!
It's crazy how we used to think this stuff would take 10000 years but we can now see it happening in 100-200 years
I love this facet of Herbert's Dune universe. It was a new and unique take on an old sci-fi trope. He explored the long term effects it had on human society in his universe.
Shame it was ruined by others turning it into basically the plot of Terminator and endless other sci-if’s.
Damn, so many Dune videos. Deep cut topics too. Very cool!
Imagine a world where having a pocket calculator carries the death penalty.
Worse than that. In the original novel, Duncan Idaho set a booby trap using a laz-gun arranged to fire at a Holtzman shield (a very bad combo) with a clockwork timer for a delayed triggering. While it worked, other members of Duke Leto's men were NOT happy with the solution, chiding Idaho for skirting the rules stated in the Orange Catholic Bible. Yup, something as innocuous as a freaking "egg timer" was a serious "grey area" of morality in their society. Whereas a remote device, under direct human supervision, a transmitter and a receiver to trigger the firing would have been completely Kosher.
@@Redfern42 Which doesn't actually make a lot of sense considering how ornithopters have to work. Sure the human says "I want to go that way at that speed" with the controls, but the thopter has to have computers to determine how to move the wings and control surfaces to actually do that. So really, its the computer flying the machine with the human just telling it where to go. The machine is deciding the best way to move the wings to accomplish the objective it was set. All an egg timer bomb is is a human saying go boom in x minutes. No decisions on the part of the machine at all.
@@HIMPDahak I think what they mean by thinking machines are the machines that are able to make complex decisions and AI. A thopter cannot fly on its own so things like ships cars etc are okay. But things that are able to operate on their own without human intervention are illegal.
@@jaythekid4728 If that was the case navigators wouldn't be needed for highliners nor would mentats be needed for general administration. Before the Butlerian Jihad, space was colonized using computers to calculate safe paths for foldspace travel. It only became so dangerous without a navigator because they banned navigation computers. And mentats are essentially walking databases. You don't have to rely on something as rare and expensive as the spice if basic computing is still available.
@@jaythekid4728 that doesnt make sence to allow ai on ships as its the whole reason the story exists is the fact thry cant use said ship AI's to travel
I understand those who do not like the expanded Dune novels by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson. Their writing is nowhere near the quality of Frank Herbert. Even though I do enjoy them, I do have to roll my eyes at some of their plot lines. For those not wanting to waste their time reading all of their novels, I do recommend just two. Those are "Paul of Dune" which tells more of the story of Paul during his rise to power during the Fremen jihad years and "The Winds of Dune" that takes place in the interim period after the blind Paul walked out into the desert at the end of "Dune Messiah" and prior to the "Children of Dune" story.
I seem to be drawn to Duke Lato's storyline and plan on reading all the Caladan series.
@@jackkennard4539 Perhaps you have already done so, but those interested in Duke Leto should read the three Brian Herbert/Kevin J. Anderson books House Atreides, House Harkonnen and House Corrino that include the story of the young Duke Leto prior to the new The Duke of Caladan series.
I’ve enjoyed all the books, and the jihad I think would make a great series. Plus it kinda reminds me a bit of the 03 Galactica series.
@@hucklebuck411 I read one of the books. I them promised myself that I'd never, ever make myself read another. I've kept that promise to myself and I'm very grateful that I made it.
My local Book Cycle ( 3 books a day and pay what you can afford) regularly has them on it's shelf and that's where I leave them.
The video hits the nail on the head in its description of the Butler Jihad.
Frank Herbert's books give a broad outline that allows us to understand his world at he time the story takes place.
The extended universe is an attempt to grab our cash knowing how much we loved Frank Herbert's creation and how we sometimes wish there'd been more of it.
@@chrisgibson5267 given it was his kids work one would think maybe just maybe he using his dads notes had good things in mind as well. And like all books to each his own I feel like that about the later Dune books. First one great downhill from there till it culminates in the space hooker nazi's near the end.
They handled machines waaaaay better than how the humans in the matrix did...
Ive always thought of the matrix as what would have happened if the humans lost the butlerian jihad
We're all machines. 😊
@@adambrown3918 Found the Thinking Machine guys, let's bring the Sardaukar!
The matrix war and the animatrix, tho really cool, never made sense to me
While there are multiple interpretations: I do like the theme that the start of the Jihad was not panic started by an open robot revolt that nearly led to human extinction, but that artificial intelligence had slowly been allowed to enslave humanity on its own.
We must start to wage revolt against the algorithm before it's too late.
Exactly what is happening right now with Metaverse and stuff
The Dune Encyclopedia version is far superior than the shoot-em-up crap Frank's son and KJA wrote.
Really? I prefer the idea that humans chose to abandon and kill sentient AI’s in order to get back in touch with themselves and advance as a species, rather than being forced to do so just to fill the roles of the evil robots they were forced to conquer. It’s a very boring and played out trope, found in Terminator, 40k and endless other sci fi. The fanfics took a unique vision of man vs machine and turned it into a cookie cutter story.
@@MrMyers758 boring and played out story?
Dune came out decades before all the franchises you mentioned, clown.
The Bene Gesserit voice is usually portrayed as a weapon or means of control. This sister's narration stopped a panic attack today. Voice can be used to calm or redirect one's focus from mental darkness. The Sisterhood gains loyalty from the people (control) many ways. A Truthsayer would confirm what I have said. Nerd Cookies {Sisterhood} has gained my gratitude yet again.
❤❤❤
The thing I never fully understood in DUNE lore was if it is prohibited to have (produce, evolve, design etc.) only thinking machines meaning machines able to make decisions of their own (AI or semi AI, computer learning etc.) or generaly all thinking machines (devices) meaning anything able to "compute", meaning anything we nowadays call "chip" or "computer".
Because in the lore there are so many things which are in my opinion not possible to work (be controled, operated) on analog/mechanical basis. I am not able to understand how you would control Ornitophere with 6-8 wings only by analog device, not even talking about engine, rpm, fuel injections and other things related to such a complicated machinery. Well, okay, I am able to accept some technolgical evolvment, improved materials and so on, that improve many aspects making this possible, but still. Even more prevalent with spaceships - the computing of aproach angle in atmosphere entry, orbit orientation or even interplanetary/planet-moon flights (which if I am correct are noble houses able to perform even without spacing guild), giant vehicles like Spice Harvesters, or small devices like hunter seeker which is supposed to be analog (?!) device able to be controled wirelessly with some antigravity/floating/propeler device and with analog (!) controls. The wireles control itself supposes something must proces the wireless (digital?) signal into (supposed) analog oparation of the hunter seeker? If I understand correctly, the hunter seeker is controled by suit, which means wireless comunication between hunter seeker and the suit both ways.
Holtzman shield generator is producing shield on analog basis? Or is it described as using some law of fysics that doesnt need to be produced (aka gravity or reflection)?
Can anyone direct me to some explanation? I didnt read more than Dune book and its some time now. I understand mentats role, but there are no mentats in all the devices.
Most importantly: Is tamagotchi a thinking machine?
I think franks only referring to a real god like AI. Not what we have in our current world. Nothing is even close to AI. They’re still just math algorithms. Nothing even close to sentient thought. Bacteria we create has more sentient thought than the “DUmb AIs we have now. So I’d say most tech would have binary computers of some sort. Just nothing getting into the realm of its own thought
Virginia Madsen looked absolutely astonishing in this film. She was truly a legendary screen beauty.
I'd like to add that Ms. Madsen is still a handsome woman. Still, I must say that at this place and time, her formidable beauty was in full force. Add to that the fantastic work of the hair, makeup and wardrobe departments and Princess Irulan was just a masterpiece.
She was a fox..still is I mean
And that voice....."The beginning is a delicate time......!
This is one of the most overlooked parts of Dune, and you can find the concept in a lot of fiction, Star Trek (Piccard) and Star Wars (1-3 of the trilogy), obviously The Matrix BSG and Terminator, so it's a very common idea, I think it also explains why in space dramas people want "artifacts" or ships that are old but better than anything new.
Eh, the literary tradition of old = powerful/better goes way back. Ancient myths have magical artifacts created long(er) ago by the gods for example. The best things aren't now; we live in the now and experience the now with all the good and all the bad. Its boring and normal. The distant past though, well we can imagine that however we want to in our fiction and it won't seem wrong even when it is. No surprise that trope makes it into sci-fi as well as much a part of literary culture as it has been.
Thanks for the great vid. The most prophetic stuff about that novel, my favourite (with the Silmarillion), is the idea of not the Machines, but Machines used by Men to enslave others...
What was never clear in the novels was *who,* exactly, was enforcing the restrictions of the Butlerian Jihad 10,000+ years later. Factions such as the Spacing Guild, the Bene Gesserit and the Bene Tleilaxu were all sufficiently secretive that they could have been flouting the restrictions quite freely. The same holds true for many Landsraad houses. We never see any kind of inspectors or enforcers doing things like auditing the factions or the houses. It's hard to believe that "it's a religious commandment" alone was enough to make all of humanity comply in perpetuity. Ironic that a crusade intended to liberate human from impersonal control simply resulted in most of humanity being ruled by a minority of nobles, priestesses, navigators and other powerful but out of touch people, while everyone below them was put into a structured caste system designed and run by those at the top!
Because oligarchies will do anything to keep power and oppress people under rigidly vertical hierarchies, because that's their work, not that of machines.
Besides, do we know more about the circumstances of the Butlerian Jihad than Bene Gesserit propaganda?
Maybe technological development was bringing humanity to fully automated, luxury space communism, and heralds of an status quo that refused to be rendered obsolete, decided to stoke fears like they pretty much do nowadays as well.
Damn Herbert was a fucking genius, that guy was definitely onto something
@d R they are Tleilaxu females.
Considering the described attacks of the Emperor using Sardukar, and the heavy use of spies and subterfuge, I imagine there was a lot of fear keeping people from dabbling in advanced computers or machinery.
"Butlerian Jihad" i imagined gerard butler screaming scottish holy verses 😂 Can't wait for part 2!
I never got the ban on “thinking machines.” It was if all computers were banned and not just AIs. However, much of the technology shown would be impossible without some level of computer technology being employed.
The mentats became human computers
We built the atomic bomb with analog computers. The transistor wasn't even invented until a couple years later. The first software code a couple years after that. We had rockets, planes, jets, automobiles, etc., all before the first digital computer. Look at some old patents before 1950. It's hard to believe that people engineered that stuff before there was a computer. Just pencil and paper. Machines are already taking their toll on us.
My point is, imagine we were stuck with analog for 10,000 years. We'd still be able to create some amazing things. The whole industrial revolution happened without computers ;)
@@jimclark2824 - Fair point. I forgot about all of that.
@@qdllc It is easy to forget. I'm 50 years old. I remember when there was no internet, cell phones, or personal computers in the house.
I forget many people DONT remember living like that. I could probably give up everything except the GPS. Please dont make me go back to the days of having maps under my front seat... lol
Keep in mind the book was published in 1965. MOSFETs (compact transistors) were invented in like 1960. The CMOS process for making integrated circuits was invented only a couple of years ago. Hell, the Intel 4004 microprocessor wouldn't be released until 1970. Moore's Law had just been proposed.
The Butlerian Jihad - started by Chat GPT
Just gotta say I adore all your content mam..I have been binging all your Dune lore and I find it fascinating..
I like how the creation of a Kwisatz Haderach is a perfect analogue of creating a god-tier AI. They expected to control it at all? Even be able to understand its motivations? It would be as inscrutable as humans from the perspective of an ant!
Bah... The sisters order doesn't see it that way and they are pretty transparent about it so I don't get your point.
Ever since I saw the first Transformer movies, I immediately saw the Butlerian Jihad in my mind. Now hollywood could do these novels with special effects now. I realize these novels have weak writing but to entertain an audience with a movie would introduce a younger generation to good scifi. Tired of Dc comics and marvel movies. Hopefully the new Dune movie will break the barrier and give us a more cerebral storyline we need in the theaters.
In what way is Dune 'cerebral'?
@@GuiltyKit have you read ANY of the material outside of the movies?
Love & always look forward to your Dune videos! You choose excellent background music. Thanks for your work!
More of these Dune Lore videos please, they're amazing. xx
These videos are great, your voice, the music. I hope they expand and do more films.
Star Trek: Space Cowboys
Star Wars: Space Wizards
Dune: Space Amish
@RedGryyn Space Monks/Inquisition sounds more like Warhammer 40k.
Wagon Train: Space Cowboys.
Your video series on Dune are an excellent refresher before seeing the new movie. Thank you.
Herbert might have been a little prophetic with this idea. At the very least, we should be cognizant of the dynamics he saw coming.
Prophecy is always a manipulation of our predisposition to see patterns.
The artwork, the background music, the narrator's soft, feminine voice... a magnificent piece of work!
Discovered your channel last weekend, not only do you provide tons of informations about a complex topic like Dune in a more than pleasent way, also your videos have a ASMR effect on me.
The soundtrack is amazing...as is the content of course.
The Butlerian jihad happens in between Wall-E and the first Dune book
Scary , this could be our future. Life imitating art , or art imitating life . It's enough for me to imagine actual life heading down a similar time stream. Hope it's more like star trek though.
Star Trek would be a soulless dystopia, and subscribe to the delusional lie of “progress”
great stuff!
ps: i LOVE the accompanying background music
When it comes to B. Herb and Anderson's version of the Butlerian Jihad, all you have to remember is that they couldn't even get the dates for it right. They had to do a lot of backtracking and twisting to make theirs fit after people pointed it out.
2 thinking machines disliked this 😆
Thanl you Nerd Cookies and may you have a very nerdy day or night also.
Honestly, I loved the prequels. Think it was house Harkonnen, but it started out with a massive planetary bombardment from the machines. Don’t want to ruin it, but that battle is why Xavier turned to the spicy sauces for his food :) If they would put that sequence into film, it would dwarf some of the most intense Sci-fi to date. Using holzman drives without navigators because it takes months to travel otherwise… Norma cenva and the beginnings of the guild. Great stuff.
Compound X was such a weapon.
Scott Peterson which was a fan of Dune will use it for his game Twilight Imperium as X89 Bacterial Weapon Technology.
I have a feeling this will one day come TRUE
I haven't read any of these later books so this lore is all new to me. Very interesting.
If you're fan of Game of Thrones, Battlestar Galactica, Terminator and/or Starship Troopers, I'm sure you definitely enjoy the Legends of Dune trilogy, i.e.
1). Dune: The Butlerian Jihad.
2). Dune: The Machine Crusade.
3). Dune: The Battle of Corrin.
If you're a fast reader or have access to audiobooks, I recommend you give it a try!
@@toh786 I'm a fan of all of those and I'm a very fast reader as I guess are most people here. I'll give them a read but at the moment i'm flying through the Stormlight archive and they may take a while, big books, very big books of a most excellent quality.
@@jimmywrangles I heard good things about Stormlight! I might start reading Wheel of Time first and then the former book series, I reckon
@@toh786 All I can say is if you don't read the stormlight archive you are missing out.
I recommend you skip Dune. It's a grind past book 1-2.
Great video. Dope background music too.
I always thought the jihad was less liberation from machines and and more desire from the sisterhood and spacers guild to have control over the universe and to create a jihad that had no real reason to exist (not including the prequel novels).
Yessss thissss!!! There is absolutely no way in hell I am taking the bene gesserit at their word!
"The thinking machines enslaved men" - aristocrats who literally enslave men!! I sincerely doubt that the historians of dune are reliable
The issue was that the BG and Guild were not in control of the thinking machines.
They knew that whomever had control had power over how man thinks.
They wanted the power to control man themselves so enacted a false flag situation to spark the revolt.
@@adrenalinevan "The Thinking Machines not only enslaved you but actually believed that you the plebes also had rights and paid you credits for your labor!"
"Horrible!"
"Heresy!"
Space 1984.
eyebrow raise!
Brilliant. I am teaching my son about Samuel Butler and this video was a good introduction to the influence of his ideas in the creative realm but also perhaps in real life if we are not careful. And we are not careful.
Scary as it is as fiction, we seem to be following this self prophetic evolution. Yes, your IPhone is watching you.
Especially with that front camera, which almost every phone has these days.
I don't know how youtube's algorithm got me here, but I'm loving it. Great content.
There should be a trilogy of films on the BIG screen to cover this part of the Dune universe...
great work as always reverend mother nerd cookies...best dune lore channel on TH-cam IMHO
the music in this video is incredible
Another fine video. I have not read the Dune Encyclopaedia and find it's reason for the Jihad more elegant than Brian Herbert's. However I feel his tale of enslavement, cruelty and genocide at the hands of machines/Titans gives a stronger motive to never return to machine autonomy. I also found Brian/Kevin's depiction of the spite, self loathing and contradictory zealotry of the main jihad protagonists effective. How these illogical zealots could create phobias of technology and technological societies that reached into Frank Herbert's universe millennia later.
Illogical zealots should never have been able to win on their own.
A sinister conspiracy trying to impose their agenda on all of humanity going awry would at least be possible.
@@Fridaey13txhOktober the general populous were resentful at having lost so much through war and seduced by a charismatic leader attacking an easy target; somewhere in the 1930s comes to mind. Throughout history religiosity has incited great feats of carnage so no great leap in imagination is required in BHs books.
“Easy target” that so happened to be at the forefront of the Bolshevik rebellion, the Frankfurt school, Sexual and Moral degeneracy, and economic exploitation?
The ARTWORK in this one is OUTSTANDING!!!...
ah the future history of chat gpt
The thing is, dune is a raypunk universe, in the 2021 film seems that they has chosen a familiar setting instead of a completely alien armors and Ships and make their society entirely alien with mentats and bene geserit and later with tleilaxu, everything seems so clean and iron mannish that never make we thing that technology is made another way
Please make a long video about Duncan Idaho through all the books.
That would be great! Hope you see this. Take care. 👍
I am planning on making something like that soon
Is anyone else seeing the parallels between this and what's going on with tech now? It's been bothering me for awhile lol
lol we are far from that. Right now its human manipulation and using the tech to hide from other.
Feed the algorithm. Trust the algorithm.
@J Zig I agree absolutely. It's amazing how many people don't want to read the book. Just wait for the movie...
Thinking machines weren't sentient lifeforms like in BH's books. They were predator drones with pretty good algorithms (just as a reference to our technology). They probably acted autonomously by their programming and sensors. I imagine something like a kill switch didn't work or the people who knew how to activate kill switch wound up dead somehow. Either way, feeding an algorithm and sensors into a drone that can refuel itself ought to be banned now in our reality... just saying
This story gives me major cyberpunk vibes and in my mind while reading it , I get major Matrix vibes mixed with asimov's foundation and robot series. Dune truly is the gift that keeps on giving since I read the first book randomly. One of the best decisions I ever made and it rekindled my love for reading.(which has been absent for 20 years)
Unironically we need a Butlerian Jihad
I LOVE listening to your videos as I fall asleep. Where do you find the background music?
This is one of my favorite story arcs in all of Science Fiction
I wanted to like Pinky and the Brian's "Butlerian Jihad" trilogy. I really, really wanted to.
But Omnius and the Cymeks ruined it for me. The whole "Synchronized Worlds" implementation ruined it for me. I get what they were going for, but it just didn't fit for me. It turned the conflict into an Empire vs Empire conflict, not a Human vs Machines. "Everyone from (This Planet) is Good, everyone from (That Planet) is Bad." and it was just a coincidence that the (That Planet) was ruled by "Machines". It could have been Aliens, and conflict would have been virtually identical. It was a Struggle against an OUTSIDE Foe, not an INSIDE Foe.
The Frank Hebert Butlerian Jihad was about humanity realizing it had given away its freedom to Thinking Machines - and Thinking Machines were EVERYWHERE. It was a realization that ANY machine capable of human levels of computational power were inevitably going to be a threat to them. You couldn't control it, you couldn't keep the machines to just a near-human level, or to be able to do just certain computations. Humans always look to tinker, to improve things - and as long as there were machines like that, they would be a threat. That Toaster in the kitchen that could compute the kind of bread in it to know that "Setting 3" would get one result for Sourdough and another result for Whole Wheat bread? It would be upgraded by some well-meaning human so that it would be able to tell what time of day it was, and adjust the settings to make the perfect bread for that time of day. Then someone would add a sensor to it, and it could tell when its owner would be hungry enough to need the toast now. And that sensor would be upgraded so that it could tell when the Owner would want to spread Jam over the toast instead of peanut butter.
Someone would upgrade it again so it could tell how healthy the owner was, so it would know NOT to toast the bread in a way that could entice the Owner to put Jam on it (to avoid the sugars!). And then upgraded again to work with the Fridge and Cupboard (you've got a Smart Toaster, you're gonna have other Smart devices too) so that they could order healthy food for the Owner. And... suddenly the Toaster (along with the other machines in the house) are deciding what the Humans in the house can eat and when they can eat, and the Humans just go along with it because they've been conditioned to do it. But they're doing so based on the programming of some human in an office on another entire planet, and people in that office are having their own little fight amongst themselves to decide what is "Healthy" and what is not, and whichever faction is winning gets to set the upgrades for the Toasters to implement. And even then, it was unclear if the Winners were actually the ones in charge because... they had Smart Toasters too! Who was in control? Were the humans programming the toasters to program the humans, or were the toasters programming the humans to program the toasters to program the humans?
It's not about humans LITERALLY giving their power to Machines, like Xerxes did in the Pinky and the Brian books. It's not about having some Supreme Single Machine that decides to Rule Over All Humans. Really, it's not about the MACHINES at all - it's about Humanity being reliant on them, about humanity relying on things outside of themselves and putting too much faith in their creations. The Bulterian Jihad is about that, in regards to Machines. Paul is a story about the same general problem, except with that reliance being in a single Human Being - Paul. His Empire turns him into a God and does terrible things in his name because they let the Jihad do all their "Thinking" for them, and he's not strong enough to follow the Golden Path to stop it. God Emperor Leto sees that the lesson of the Bulterian Jihad isn't merely about Machines, but about putting all Humanity's "faith" into any single source (Machines, Paul, etc.) and has the courage to try to break Humanity free. Heretics and Chapterhouse seemed to be about the same basic thing, only this time, instead of Machines or Religion, it was Biological Creations (Futars, Free Face Dancers) and Mental Conditioning (sexual imprinting by BOTH the Honored Matres and Bene Gesserit) and something else. Something we never actually saw because Frank never finished his Book 7.
Pinky and the Brain 🤣. Could not agree more.
This 1000%.
Ya'll do realize that instead of becoming reliant on machines we just became reliant on biological 'machines' spice addicts, mutant monstrosities, and hermaphroditic face changing slaves that aren't even really human anymore....axiotl tanks filled with gholas of people who died a thousand years ago...etc etc...so if you wanna call that an improvement over machines...sure whatever.
That whole concept is bad, in reality people would use machines against other machines
@@sebaszwarc6028 Sorry, 94% of humanity, you just have to die because we're afraid of pocket calculators!
Sorry remaining 97% of the 6% of survivors, you will have to be poverty-stricken peons!
You are so gracious to just allow this to happen!
The of the most fascinating things about the Dune universe is that there are no Aliens or Extraterrestrials.
the algorithm had better recommend this video far and wide, if it knows what's best.
Really appreciate your take that whether someone prefers the "canon" or "non-canon" version of the details, the intent is what matters. The point is that the jihad happened and we now live in a universe without thinking machines. Done. How we got there is just for fun.
Digging the background music
A I is a real danger.
We need to hear Herbert's warning
"Let's not have computers anyone can use - let's have mentats only the powerful have access to!"
A visionary concept. Look where we are currently heading....
In Brian Herbert's prequels it's not AI that rebels, it's humans that have downloaded themselves into immortal and powerful machine bodies and want to rule all. House Atreides is directly descended from their gene pool.
Already liked it! The video hasn’t even started. 👍🏻
These Dune videos are great, and it's hilarious how lopsided the views are for Dune videos versus non-Dune videos on this channel
Please read Erewhon by Samuel Butler.
In this work you'll find much which influenced Frank Herbert's world building.
Here you'll find not only the name Butler, but also preborn memory, the fate of the prescient, the seed of the houses of learning as a response to a jihad, and more.
This is how you preserve important information, and especially warnings. Encode it in religion. Data is frail. Books rot, electronics fail, digital data becomes corrupted. But make it a matter of faith and people will pass on the information for thousands of years
One of the things Dune is about is a cautionary tale concerning an over-reliance on technology & finite resources, because those things can be manipulated by politics. Which, is astoundingly prescient, all things considered.
"Fear not the thinking machines, but the men who build them."
I love your videos. I like the way you explain thinga. Good on you! Subscription complete.
I personally would pinch a bit from Game of Thrones and briefly show an invented character executed for owning something as simple as a calculating device. Perhaps Thufir could detect it.
i think the different interpretations of the butlerian jihad all connect on a level that anyone who read the original series first then read the prequels would find their own understanding of the tremendous event in future history its a great story i love to revisit many and many times overat times i wanted so much more too im as bad as a spacing guildsman wanting the spice and the dune series as a whole is the spice. the spice must flow. and on a side note i think the matrix was inspired by this grand event how machines literally taken over everything humanity was doing and finally was defeated by humanity
But Matrix got the results of the war right, at least the fighting part.
Dune has everything, so many franchise would not be nothing if not for frank. R. I. P. Brother
You need to do a back and forth with Quinn's ideas, it would be cool to hear you two talk about dune together
I second that, and would specifically love to hear your guys' theoretical ideas of what might've been in the final original *Dune* novel 😁(other than what Herbert said about it leading to a system that resembles democracy) How would that come about with the circumstances and characters we're left with? What do you think was happening/in the works? 😁😁😁😁😁... I know.. it's a tall order.... but... pretty please 😁🙏😉 lol. You're awesome, thanks for all the content. ❤ these nerd cookies are delicious! 🍪🥛
Quinn is a SJW
@@bombsawaylemay770 how so?
@@w.murphy5151 I followed him until his f-bomb rant about people complaining about Kynes being portrayed as a woman. Showed his true colors.
@@bombsawaylemay770 I haven't seen that I'll have to check it out
These books started so well, the first one Buttlerian Jihad had so many great ideas but it went downhill with the second book and the last one was almost unreadable.
Great name 🤣
@d R I think he is talking about the Buttlerian Jihad series from Brian and Kevin. Yeah the first book was course but intriguing, then they rushed the last two of the trilogy without improving their storytelling; so while the overall ideas were great, the delivery was sloppy and shallow. God Emperor is in my opinion the pinnacle of the series, though I do love the Norma Cenva and Erasmus story arcs in the EU, even if they are a bit crude and rushed at times.
Love this channel
Come to to think of it, we are living our lives where machines and technologies are controlling our lives. Case and point, our phones.
My sister's boyfriend believes that AI is the anti-Christ....
I wouldn't say our phones, but more like software like Twitter and Facebook!
@@Steve_in_NJ But Brother Steve, are not the vast majority of people accessing social media with their phones? I see phones as an integral part of the technology domination that we are now living under. The final straw will be when AI takes over completely and we will be slaves to it's insidious power and vast presence in every facet of our lives. I mean what's next....Smart Toilet Paper to monitor and assist you wiping your ass?
AI seaways to Big Brother "case in point phones".
@@jackkennard4539 Your number will be JK264 and branded on your forehead...."JK264, this is Central Control. Get off the toilet! You've been sitting there for almost 12 minutes. We are now starting the shower, you have 5 minutes. Get your ass in there and then get to bed.....standing by."
I've always been a cautious fan of Brian and Kevin's work, there are things the did masterfully, like the backstory of Erasmus and Gilbertus, and others that could have been handled with much more finesse like Serina Butler's story and the origin of the Bene Gesserit sisterhood (which was Very jumpy, but I like the gist of what they were aiming at). The guild navigator backstory was amazing, but it's "final acts" felt rushed and it would have been better if it were a book in and of itself in between cymek / machine battle books instead of being told concurrently with them. Like the changes Norma Cenva would undergo I felt should take the course of a book considering how she was essentially unlocking a new pathway for human evolution and perception.
Give it some time and Brian Herbert & Kevin J. Anderson will probably write a novel or novels about Norma Cenva; after all, she eventually became for all intents and purposes immortal, becoming the Oracle of the Navigators, still living at the end of the Dune saga as completed by those authors.
Same. I've never been able to get into their stories. I see them as the Rogue One effect. They take a minor and insignificant line from the original books and try to squeeze a book trilogy out of it. They also seem like lazy writing which is why we get worms emerging from a glassed Arakis and ultra spice from aquatic worms! I understand no one will write like Frank did, but come on, gohlas of all the characters from all the other books? Really? Just lazy.
@@briancaldwell871 Leto II controlled all the spice in the universe for thousands of years. Now, BH controls all the cheese. There is just no defense for the cheese that BH/KJA cultivated into their books. I can give a pass to writing styles. Water worms... lol Everyone's a ghola... lol The oracle of time... lol It's cheese all the way down!
@@briancaldwell871 Scytale was the one that had those DNA samples in chapterhouse
@@captainhoratius8192 Norma wasn’t hunchedback, she was just a dwarf. Personally I saw what the Titans and the machines became after centuries. Their take over started with the whole “once men turned their thinking to machines in the hopes that this would set them free” and as time went on, AI went the way of the cylons
Always enjoy these vids, your cute voice makes them better to listen to. My gf has not read Dune yet but I bought her the kindle vers for when she gets to it. Keep up the good work.
some of these paintings....wow!
Love your videos!