Does Engine Idling Waste Fuel? (Start-Stop Technology)
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Engine start-stop is a technology designed to reduce fuel consumption, by shutting off the engine at stop-lights. But does this tech actually do anything? Obviously, an idling engine uses fuel, while an engine that’s off does not. But restarting that engine does use fuel. So which one has more of an impact? Well a study published in SAE tested exactly this, as well as real world test drives to see the impact. The results are surprising!
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It would also be helpful to know how much wear and tear all this restarting adds to the engine, starter motor, etc.
They use brushless starters, so basically none.
@@vyvianalcott1681 no brushes maybe.. what about the pinion, ring gear, solenoid etc?
Not sure what the extra wear and tear would be on the engine, the stop is relatively short duration, there will still be an oil film on the bearings, rings, and cylinder walls, everything is still at operating temperature, the restart should be easy, so I don’t think there is meaningful wear on the engine from start/stop. The starter motor clearly gets more use, and that means more wear and tear, but does it matter? A little math can answer that question: assume the vehicle gets 40mpg without start/stop and gets 5% better fuel economy with it, and let’s assume the starter costs $400 to replace, and further assume $4/gal for gasoline, solving for the point where the cost of the starter equals the value of the fuel saving, we have to save 100 gallons of fuel, which will happen at 81,600 miles. So if the starter lasts at least 81,600 miles of driving on the start/stop regimen then there will be a net savings. Clearly starter life will be heavily influenced by how many start/stops happen per mile (more being bad) as will fuel savings (more being good) so good real-world data is needed, but it seems plausible that start/stop can yield a net savings.
I’m editing this because so many people have misunderstood my point in this comment, which is simply that the concerns about start/stop are overblown. I agree that the savings aren’t huge, but they are real, and I was trying to put useful numbers on the hypotheticals, to give a perspective, a basis to think about the value of start/stop. Too often people want to let their feelings about (something) dictate their perception about the facts, but I’m an advocate for trying to be as objective and facts-based as possible.
The question is not only how much will the wear and tear cost to the starter, battery, but also to the crankshaft bearings, cylinders, camshafts, etc, from lower oil pressure. Regardless, I can afford the measly fuel used to idle and not risk the engine reliability or waste my precious time having a car in the shop.
@@jpe1Blowby is what allows an engine to achieve full oil pressure, so no, it won't have full oil pressure while off.
Edit: For the people that keep replying to me, I'm going off the oil pressure gauge in my car. 600 kpa with any throttle, regardless of RPM, otherwise ~480 kpa off throttle, high RPM. 180 kpa idle. Values change with oil temperature, for example, it's 650 kpa on a cold start at idle.
its fun and games until the car doesnt start again
edit: did not expect to see a war down in the comments
😂
I've heard vehicles with auto-shutoff have a secondary starter for that reason
@@notdrew3780 negative. Also wears the battery out much faster.
@@notdrew3780I think that some use a separate battery.
@@jdelbridSeperate battery and separate starter = even more costly, even more stuff to maintain, even more that can go wrong.
The starter motor: "I'm tired boss..."
“Dog tired…”
Thing is, there’s a lot of components that can get tired that all are in the stop start system; battery, relays, starter, flywheel, electrical connections. So the question of will it restart is always pertinent.
The starter motor is beefed up in cars with this system.
As a dealership tech I've only replaced 3 starter motors since stop start was introduced 15 years ago.
@@jonhunt5408 thing is, most fear are made up except maybe for the battery in some brand.
@@panzervepsdon’t they also stop in a position that requires less energy for turning over?
Bruh most the time your car turns off as the light turns green 😂
You just wasted 7 seconds worth of fuel 😤
And that delay to start forward at a freshly green light means more cars don't make it through the intersection due to the poorly timed left-turn being so short. So more fuel is being saved as you now get to sit for another two minutes and wait for the light you just missed because the driver in the front was on their phone, too.
@@briansepolen4917
My engine shuts down even before I’ve come to a full stop and it starts faster than I can move my foot from the brake to the accelerator.
My car shows the time it has stopped the engine in between fill-ups and that’s usually between 1 and 2 hours!
Is it just me or if I get honked at the traffic light for a small get going delay, it makes me “rocket” launch it from the “pole position” after and waste all the saving ??? 😂🙃
Yep and then every other car on the road loses fuel as they are stuck waiting at the light, since now they can't make it through in one cycle.
+8% fuel
-8% engine life
Edit: We got WWIV in the replies before GTA 6
Probably 10% less engine life or more
Honestly, all those stories of "engine wear on start-up" is hogwash. The exception may be that of a cold start, but.... a Briggs and Stratton, WHILE RUNNING, has no more oil in its bearings and rings than a warm-start car engine and they last thousands of hours.
It is an urban myth that this starting and stopping of engines wears them more. Start-stop systems have been in place an awful long time now. I have yet to see a correlation of reduced engine longevity and having a start/stop system.
@@paulstandaert5709 Premature timing chain failures started to become very frequent around the same time start-stop systems did. I don't have any data to back my hunch, but the added stress on the timing chain from having to start up the engine so frequently without the tensioner being under oil pressure seems like a logical reason.
@@lilstubthumb lol, no
@@paulstandaert5709 ı think too, oil is still in everywhere but when engine start up every one week it will wear more,my bmw starts with no oil at start and the sound hurts.Sorry if ı misunderstand
A note, accelerating slightly slower and coasting slightly more can also save +10% on mileage while also reducing wear on your engine
Get out of the fast lane
@@dieselfrk13ong bro I’m not trying to be a dick but all these guys be doing is making me, (who wants to get where I wanna be quick) seem like an asshole when really I just wanna drive my car the way it’s meant to be maaaan 😭
Theres no law on how fast i get to the speed limit move
@@reggienotorious6824law? No. Laws? Yes.
@@reggienotorious6824 Its's called a "competition start" or 'careless driving'.
I saved $2.65 on fuel, but then had a starter installed for $425.00 . What a deal
It doesn't hurt the starter, I've had my truck since end of 2017, it's literally fine. 100k miles
Except some doesn't use starter
Some just leave a piston at top of the compression stroke so it just injects fuel and sparks it to restart the engine
Learn before you complain
My car doesn't use the starter motor when it stop/starts. Just needs a little spark and a spray of gas from one of the injecters.
I have yet to hear of someone burning out a starter using start stop.
@FonicsSuck happens but is about the same likely hood of burning up a starter on a normal vehicle as there either built stronger or doesn't even use it
The first thing I did when I got my 2020 CRV was disable the stop-start, it can be dangerous when trying to cross busy highways.
I prefer this system is hybrids because it’s a smooth transition of engine cutting off, accelerating again, then the engine cutting on again while I’m still in motion.
Yes, exactly right. My bf has a Honda Pilot with it. Always feels like it’s hesitating when started back up. It’s not too bad, but noticeable and annoying.
You still waste excess gas stopping the engine then starting again
@@nicholascurry5515 Did you EVEN watch the short?
Yep, I hate these systems because by all reasonable measure they are illegal by current laws and for a decent reason.
They give up your control over the vehicle. It's illegal for me to put the car from drive into neutral because I cannot power away from any issues I need to move forwards to avoid. This system is effectively the same because it takes so long before you actually get meaningful power from the engine if you are stopped and want to accelerate immediately.
@@cherriberri8373no one goes into neutral when idling. For you, they created a button to shut off auto on/off. For rest of us that experience traffic, it's a great system if equipped with electric start that transition back to gas.
Start/Stop system on my older car: my hand on the key 😂
Mine was my steering column, push it to the left, stops, move it back, starts up again
Never do a strat stop yourself, the car isn’t made for this purpose
@@acenewholland564 Yes, i guess the starter doesn't like starting the engine that often right? Oh, and the battery of course. I only turn the car off when i know it's going to take a while (train crossings for example) My original comment was purely intended to be funny.
@@Rundumsfliegen exactly right. Cars with stop start technology have starters the size of your head and the starter gear to handle the load of the car rolling from the start. Most if not all also have bulkier circuitry to handle the load without overheating the wiring.
@@Patrick-zr8tvbigger and heavier built batteries too
Every time I'm in a car with my grandfather, he absolutely hates that function.
i don't hate it but what i do hate is that i've already had to replace my starter, because it's getting used 10x more
@@noahr6786lol
Sucker
Because grandparents hate everything new
@@noahr6786 my jeep has been through 3 starters lol thanks to start stop lol in 100k miles
@@electricpaisy6045 they're mostly luddites tbh
Most of my vehicles have had that function, called theyre old rust buckets that don't idle, so your choices are hold the gas at idle manually the whole time or restart it when the light turns green
Now we need a study on wear and tear on the engine from multiple starts vs no starts, in between trips
I've only ever thought of the starter, that's a good point
We have a study on where in tear the engine life cycle is not about mileage, but about how many times it heats up and cools down so pretty much any time to start the engine and stop the engine making this process really bad for it
Sir if my 2004 with 300,000 miles on it can start up just fine on the same engine and starter it was sent off from the factory the car will be fine.
@@mrsynapse what's the car?
There isn't a problem with the starters, this function has been here in Europe for ages now and they don't blow through starters. Only thing that's needed is an AGM battery but they last just as long or longer than regular.
So many drivers like to creep forward. They will come to a complete stop, shutting the engine off, only to start back up a second later when the driver creeps an inch forward. What a waste.
Then just don't do it if you have this
I'm a mechanic and always laugh by myself when I see this creeping forward by car drivers here in South Africa. Most cars here are manual transmission, and I see them rolling back and forth, holding the car on the clutch at the traffic lights that are uphill facing. That keeps me in good business 😊😊😊
That's just people being terrible drivers, you could have real full self driving and you're still going to get people who constantly yank on the wheel to "correct" the robot.
people who understand how their brakes work do this purposefully to prevent uneven material transfer between brake linings and rotors/drums
@@ghostlight69420 Absolute hogwash. Any rubbing between brake linings and rotors means wear and tear on the brakes. There's no such thing as preventing uneven material transfer by creeping forward. It's just a bad habit caused by impatience, nothing else.
All gangsta until the starter motor gives up in 5 years
Exactly!!! I saved $8 worth of fuel this year but I had to spend $900 for a new starter....
🤣
OEM Start Stop Systems Use a More Capable Starter Motor System, Some are even on a 48V Bus, and run via the Alternator Side, not the Flywheel Side!
@@robertweekley5926 That is actually good to know.
@surfstarcc1 you must not drive alot... the average drive would save 100's of dollars a year
Studies have shown that the wear out rate for the starter, the battery and the engine bearings is about 12% higher. To offset some of this extra wear, oil changes must be done more frequently. You don’t end up saving Diddy Squat with this technology, and when it breaks ( and it certainly will ) the repair costs are much higher for these types of starters. I programmed a disable for the start/ stop on my BMW 535i.
If car manufacturers know what they are doing, they engineer the affected parts to handle the increased strain. (I know at least VW does this). I've owned several cars with these systems at this point, and its never been an issue, maybe I'm just lucky, but the start/stop system itself seems very reliable. Also I'm not aware of any increased need for oil changes, at least not based on the manual.
What I DO like about these systems is that prior to these systems cars with automatic transmissions did not like idling at stoplights in drive. I'd often find myself shifting into neutral to stop a sudden rough idle. Not usually an issue anymore with the start stop system.
Plus fuel costs are higher than maintenance costs over time for most people, unless of course you're driving a BMW 5 series, in which case your maintenance costs are "if that's a concern for you, you shouldn't be driving this".
@@Michael-uc2pnCars with automatics prior to start/stop did not like idling in drive? What kind of garbage cars were you buying?
@@Michael-uc2pn Well there's your problem. It was a BMW. I've worked on numerous automatics that had 200k - 500k miles on them. None of them had those issues unless they were severely neglected (burnt ATF, people going WOT on a overheating transmission).
Also, that idling statement is complete hogwash as well. Where are you getting this information from?
"now let's argue in the comments, shall we?" Now that's a man who knows how to use the algorithm right
I bought a small device to permanently save what setting I have, and I just set it to off. The onboard counter told me I saved about $7 of gas in a year at the cost of over 150 extra ignition sequences.
Stop/start makes a lot more sense in a hybrid than it does in a normal gas engine. Reason being is many (not all) hybrids have an electric motor that's connected directly to the engine and can use this much more powerful electric motor to start the combustion engine rather than a traditional small high amperage starter.
Also, being able to creep forward with the electric motors means the engine can stay off for longer making it much more reasonable as a solution.
Not really. The starters are so overbuilt, you won't wear one out very easily. Toyota gives them something over 350K starts. And starting a warm engine take so little effort.
@@Dusdaddy My point was less about it going to cause premature failures. Toyota especially is the king of hybrids and I trust their engineering. It's more a hybrid is going to benefit significantly more than a non-hybrid powertrain, especially in stop and go traffic where you can still move without the engine running. It's just overall more useful in a hybrid than in a regular car.
Plus, since they're using a higher voltage, (48v or ~250v in Toyota's case depending on the vehicle) this means they can use significantly thinner conductors to transfer the same amount of energy and no longer a need for a traditional starter. Easier on the battery since it's not using the low voltage battery (high voltage, less amps, same output), no need for a traditional starter that is only used for starting the engine, and no potential wear from having to engage/disengage the starter every time the engine is started back up.
And sure, a 12v starter can be designed to handle it, but it's still literally hundreds of amps every single time the engine is started. And it's obviously significantly more on the larger engines.
@@jensalan Hybrid or not, the engine still needs to start. Yes, a hybrid that actually provide fwd movement like the Ram is nice because it makes it less noticeable but changes nothing on starting the engine.
@@Dusdaddy Well yes. Obviously your engine still needs to be started. But with a hybrid setup, you no longer need a traditional 12v starter whose only purpose is to start the engine. It can be replaced by an electric motor which can be used to propel the vehicle, regenerate energy, as well as starting the vehicle.
@@jensalan Sure, no argument. Just arguing your statement that it's best used in a hybrid. I would argue the opposite. Anything to get a traditional ICE better mpg is welcomed.
Starter: “I’m tired of this grandpa…”
Auto start: WELL THAT’S TOO DAMN BAD
HOLES
Having the car shut off at a stop sign is infuriating.
Seems like they're getting better at it, where it's more brake pressure dependent (light, stay on, hard pressure, turn off). Seems smart.
@@EngineeringExplainedyeah, but sometimes if the radar detects the car in front of you crawl a bit forward (to then come to a stop again one meter closer to the lights) it thinks it’s time to restart and back to idle again…
"sh1t, i forgot to hit the button!"
@@EngineeringExplained Yep my corolla cross is like this giving u an option to activate or not
@@Axis089Again, too much unnecessary, expensive crap that will break and be impossible to diagnose, making repairs prohibitive for the average person.
Ah yes the technology that only makes sense when the traffic is so bad you're better off walking.. useful stuff.
That’s most cities in rush hour.
@yolo_burrito no that's just big citys, like the central hubs.. Most of the country doesn't have traffic tho on the bright side thanks to them all wanting to sit in traffic for hours
Almost every traffic light I've ever stopped at is longer than 7 seconds, what do you mean lol
As someone who lives in Bristol VA, this saves me so much fuel lmao I don't driva an expense vehicle, but the people thay do in downtown LOVE sitting at lights and or slowly pulling off to show off their ride😂
@nick-ro5bd I don't use this or care about the argument, but bro you gotta get out of your bubble more. It is not only big cities with bad traffic daily. I live in New jersey and let me tell you, we have no really big cities and the traffic is an absolute nightmare daily. Summer traffic is insane.
It would be interesting to see how the start-stop system affects the longevity of the engine and whether the costs incurred can be offset by the saved gasoline.
Screw all that.. .. Just buy a plug-in Hybrid.
It has almost no effect on reliability. Starting an already warm engine is very easy on the starter and causes almost no wear on the engine since it is partially lubed and tolerances in cylinders/pistons and rings are always designed for engines at running temperature.
Even if the fuel savings are greater than the amount of the potential repairs, is it even worth it? In terms of headaches at the repair shop/dealership, being without a car for a few days etc.. to me, not worth it for a little less fuel burn
You will be at the repair shop way before your starter will be broken because of that, but yes it will wear a little bit faster @@trevorflegler6563
Correct answer
In the UK, the public buses shut off every time they reach a bus stop. They turn back on when they're ready to go to the next stop.
Let me answer some things as an automotive engineer.
We’re in the day and age of planned obsolescence and EPA overreach. The start/stop system in general is designed to save the consumer money in the short term, but make the dealership techs money in the long run while appeasing the EPA. You will save money during the duration of the failure point, the starter’s life. Automotive companies are hoping that once the starter eventually goes out the average person is going to take their car to the dealership for a new starter. The service and labor fees will on average far surpass the fuel savings you got. This is why the RPM act and the right to repair or so important. They maintain the right of the consumer to be able to maintain and repair their own vehicles if they choose to do so. Cutting out the labor fees and just going off of what parts cost on average would actually net a positive savings for the consumer from auto start/stop technology. From their the consumer has to decide if repairing their vehicle themselves is worth their time.
The manufacturer isn’t going to profit from the extra strain this system puts on your battery, but your battery will not last as long as it traditionally would depending on the amount of traffic in the area you live in. Traffic jams will be a massive strain on your car’s battery while average light to light traffic won’t be as bad.
Everything is relative to your specific use and abuse of the system.
Personally I feel that the savings up front aren’t worth the potential future lost time, so I turn it off (I happily repair and build my own vehicles. It’s why I’m in the field I’m in. I want to make things better for the hobbyist and consumer alike, plus I enjoy my work.)
While I may not agree with it this is just the scope of the landscape.
its not only about the starter. everytime i forget to disable this system i am stepping on gas before engine fully starts. it cant be good for it. In some cars you can jam piece of credit card in the switch and it will stay disabled but now I've got a Jeep and the system is smarter.
So it would be safe to say you spent a dollar to save 10 cents type of statement?. I'm talking about at least the point of the turning off the vehicle to save a few drops of gas but you have to repair the rest of the car in order to do that kind of thing
@@divergentthg7925different is not much as 1/10 scale, probably you will spend like 1.40 dollar for every dollar you saved. But in long term there will be surprises that makes you spend more.
@JaplamAplam not everything in life has to be short life is not about a tick tock
@JaplamAplam you're not ready for such a video
Now, do a bore test after 50k mile. Then you'll see the "real" cost of starting an engine over and over.
I was just thinking about the different metals they play with to make hi stress points like cylinder walls and sleeves. My below basic knowledge says the first explosions those surfaces absorb as well as contact with the pistol rings/assembly more than usual will stress any material over less of those start-up explosions getting to and smoothly regulating the constant. But car maker refuse to give the consumer their full capability in designing/manufacturing. If Ford's model T has proven to efficiently operate over millions of miles with consistent maintenance, they can make a forever car with high performance and low fuel consumption.
facts
Yup...
I don’t understand, your hypothesis is that more explosions creates less wear?
@@prosewat99s&s systems have more explosions without oil to lubricate the cylinders. That's the difference
it’s less a about saving fuel more about getting past government emission restrictions
No contradiction.
When people have to change alternator, starter, or battery 5 times sooner than on normal car, it not only costs more, but also pollutes more. All co2 saved on fuel is spend in faster aging parts.
@@Benoit-PierreThe government (at least in the US) doesn’t really care about maintenance related waste. It’s mostly about MPG and what’s coming out of that tailpipe. This is also a huge reason as to why they are pushing so hard for electric vehicles.
@@Rapidmp3yep yep its every where like this, i am from east europe.
It's probably just some form of this because I reckon the average stop is only 8 seconds. Or the median stop, maybe. But hey, that still saves the planet too, assuming the parts don't need to be replaced like crazy for it
@@Rapidmp3EVs still produce 50% less emissions during their lifetime than gas cars. Sure they produce more being produced mined and shipped etc.
Also
1kwh = 0.83kg Co2 emissions from grid
Tesla takes 100kw
Gas car takes 75 liters
Each liter = 2.3 kg co2
Do math.
You always want your car running just in case you have to drive away
The starter on my company delivery van only lasted 47800 miles with S/S on. And this was the original starter. Costed about $1500 to fix, glad i didn't have to pay for that !
The starter of my manual died @~62000 miles. So i guess its more about luck / no luck.
Exactly
That's a lot of money to rewind a stator.
Yeah but the company saved $23.00 in gas.
First button I press when I drive a car with stop start is to turn it off
In Malaysia, most people deactivate the STOP IDLE function as the battery change cost more than the fuel by very large gap
What do you mean by battery charge cost?
@@fredthefish581 each time you start the car you drain a certain amount from the battery and the alt must recharge it
@@fredthefish581 CHANGE BATTERY, not CHARGE BATTERY
Yes, batteries cost a lot of money nowadays. Used to last 5yrs in most cars. Now? That’s cut in half.
Not change, but replace
I do a lot of f150 starter motors,stop start batteries on everything(mostly jeeps and other Chrysler products) and jeep wrangler starters. So yeh thanks!! The tech works for me !
To be fair though Chrysler products are trash anyways.
Jeep was rated the worst most unreliable vehicle on the road today. "FACT"
I rather feel my car running than thinking "oh its just the start and stop feature" only to find out it's not starting up again while in the middle of the traffic.
A friend of mine has been a trucker for his whole career. Decades ago, when diesel was cheap, they would let their trucks idle overnight in the winter to keep them warm. Used very little fuel and saved their starters over time.
Polar bears and penguins:....
About a gallon of diesel every hour
@@sandasturner9529 on the high end
If it's below -20°C or so a diesel truck isn't starting again once it cools to ambient temperature unless you have an electric block heater plugged in or a webasto/eberspacher diesel fired coolant preheater. Even when it's nice out I don't shut the trucks off at work unless I'm close to home. It was a nice day couple springs ago and I was waiting for another driver from our company at a truckstop. "It's so nice out I should shut the truck off and stop wasting fuel" I thought to myself. Well when I was ready to leave, due to Murphys law that's when a ground had broken off the starter. Truck was an automatic so you couldn't even pull start it. Ended up laying under the truck in dried trucker piss fixing the ground so I could get home. Never shut the truck off since lol
Wow that's very anti ecological
The reason that start/stop is concerning to me is that it drastically increases the amount of time the engine spends with no oil pressure. Every time you start your engine it does at least a few revolutions before oil pressure comes up, and doing this 20+ times per drive instead of 1 has to have some kind of effect on bearing wear
It’s not a problem with modern oil. Go watch some videos on oil. It’s definitely still coating the parts and 10-30 seconds of engine downtime
Save fuel blow a motor. Doesn't seem worth it. Gas is cheap, oil is cheap, motors are not.
I know that the motor in my car has an electric oil pump that kicks in when the mechanical oil pump looses pressure. Though, that is an added complexity and cost to repairs if it ever fails 💀
@@JeremyMcIntyre-v1ngas is not cheap lol
@@1FireyPhoenix
What sort of car do you have?
Also a start/stop battery costs double,starter is probably more expensive too
This would save youu well over $100 in a year.
@@robertharris6092$300 a starter plus labor?
@@robertharris6092 and break a turbo while doing it that has high possibility of taking others part with it costing you several thousands, possibly totaling the car entirely.
The start/stop battery is seperate from your normal battery and its about half the size
Lets not forget the myrid of problems. Like in pacificas we've been back to the dealer for the same code. Auto start stop battery
I plan on keeping my Honda and Toyota for a very long time and I am glad both of my cars do not have start/stop.
There is also a system that does this without using the starter. When it stops, it stops the crankshaft with the #1 cylinder just past top dead center with a fuel-air charge already in position. To start, it fires the plug and away it goes.
Range Rover I think does this, their cars start back up incredibly quick.
Diesel
With a crank sensor, which all engines have for near 20 years now, they can do the same from any position. The number 1 position was the system from 20 years ago.
exactly
unfortunately this got 10 likes but ridiculous people crying about $2 savings over $450 in "repairings" got 1K likes
@@nievillisThere is no spark plug in diesel engines…
The main thing I think I'd dislike about auto start-stop is the delay before I can go. My older car doesn't have this feature, but my newer car actually does. But it's also a plugin hybrid, so there is no delay. You're getting up to speed before the engine is even started, which is super cool.
My new gas Jeep Grand Cherokee has no delay. It starts immediately when I come off the brake and goes as soon as I touch the accelerator.
@MikeV8652 there is still hesitation. My whip is an 04 so I don't have that crap but every rental I've ever had that had it drove me nuts. I want the vehicle to respond immediately to my inputs. Could save your life if you are stopped at a light and have to make an evasive maneuver right fn now
@@juliogonzo2718 No, there's no hesitation at all in mine. Between that and how quiet it is, it's easy to forget about the existence of auto-start-stop.
The difference is that hybrid cars' engines don't start and stop as frequently as the auto start/stop feature. Most hybrids can travel at residential speeds on the battery alone. Plus if the battery drops too low, the engine will start so the battery won't fully discharge.
The point of engine cut-off is not really to save fuel, but to reduce emissions.
It's exactly the same thing. If you burn more fuel you will have more emissions. So in the end its the same point
exactly it was made for big cities with a lot of traffic lights where emissions are important.. it’s the mass… an idling engine consumes up to 2 litres per HOUR.. so it’s really inefficient fuel saving but in emission saving it does the job
save fuel = reduce emissions
Saving fuel and reducing emissions is not the same thing!! In saving fuel the goal is to spend less, therefore you will be pissed if after the "saving" you have to replace the starter often... But since the goal is to reduce emissions, you are expecting to spend more money into it without any issue (see as an example the cost of "bio" things in the market)
@@tachy635 I didnt talk about money saving. I said about fuel saving which is exactly the same with emissions. You can't save emissions while in the same time you burn more fuel. So fuel economy = emissions economy
Every automotive engineer that I know has said that shutting a modern car off for even a minute will allow
the Catilitic converter to cool off, and then the car will bur twice as much fuel in the next 5 minutes to heat it up to the temperature where it can actually clean the exhast. When London Ontario passed the no idle law years ago, 25 automotive engineers testified to that, but the council decided to error on the side of caution. They passed the law, and everyone cheered.
Me getting 6.7mpg in my truck:
Interesting ☕️
The alternator is fighting for its life after 30k miles😂
Actually the battery suffers more in today's cars due to emission friendly charging!
140k miles still going strong. Probably near the max Chevy says theirs lasts. 300k+
The starter and battery are what would be under the most strain. The alternator would just be doing exactly what it already was the entire time. It's not doing any extra work
@@LoshJysic Yes the alternator would only be doing extra work at high RPMs, while the starter and especially the battery get the brunt of the load, especially in cold weather, especially (3rd time, I know) when making short hops and stopping the engine in traffic. It's worse for diesels. I wonder why they felt that turning on headlights as an automatic feature BEFORE the engine cranks while the battery might be dying on you was a good thing.
I wish there were some more tests done on long term reliability of this. Features like shutting the engine at a light and turning off cylinders definitely help the environment but won't matter when the car is in the junkyard.
Getting 5% better fuel economy might not be worth the strain on the battery and starting components
Don't get me started on cylinder cutoff systems. I haven't seen a single reliable one ever.
Auto start stop is the most hated function of modern cars. I turn the bloody thing OFF each time I start the car. Useless crap !!!
Here it is cold in winter and slightly less cold in the summer... Everyone turn of the start stop here because it uses more fuel when it is cold to do this stop start all the time. Also you need the heat from the engine to stay warm in the car and with the start stop on the engine end up never reaching normal operating temperature, which is bad for fuel consumption and bad for the engine.
My 06 v6 Accord Hybrid had that feature and it never bothered me. I drove that car to 285,000 miles before I traded it. Never a major problem with it.
That's fine for a hybrid, it was probably using the main motor to start stop which made it smooth and not so any damage
That’s cause it’s an actual hybrid, so it has a beefy AC motor which restarts the engine. On start-stop vehicles though, or “mild hybrid” vehicles as they are sometimes called (it’s a misleading name in my opinion, because with that logic, every gas car with a starter motor is a mild hybrid), the starting is usually done by a relatively small DC motor. The extra stresses on this small motor compared to a starter motor in a regular car will often kill it prematurely.
lol cuz it's a hybrid... it was using the electric motor to propell at low speeds, not kicking the engine on and off while crawling in traffic
@darkrulier There's a lot more to these systems than a beefier starter. It's the extra electronics that control the system that will bust your wallet when they fault out or fail.
That doesn't even take into account that a lot of starter replacements aren't a 1 hour job anymore. It's half a day plus in labor on some vehicles.
As others pointed out, of course a start stop system works great on a hybrid lol. Like, duh.
The issues come when you try to make a purely ICE car do the same, from increased wear to it delaying control inputs and all the fun in between.
"let's argue in the comments"
reported for GASlighting
I see what you did there. Trying to spark a debate
I see what you did there. Trying to spark a debate
This is a handy feature on manual cars because you can control when it shuts off by using the clutch. This way it doesn’t shut off the engine every second you come to a stop like with automatics.
There could be a button.
I get automation, but this is just like lights that turn off by themselves. I can do away with a remote switch.
Yea in my manual transmission the start/stop system will only work for the second time when the car travels a few meters so that the engine doesnt stop when you move just a inch
I have manual mk3 focus. Clutch pedal negates the system AND I also have a toggle button on the dash.
@@JonatasAdoM don't most cars with start/stop have a button to disable it?
How do you want to stop without using the clutch? Putting the gear out and clutch back in before you come to full stop?
From what I understand, the start/stop feature (my car has it) isn't to save _you_ fuel and money, but rather was a workaround, around the emmisions restrictions handed to car manufacturers.
also if the vehicle have previously ran over a coupleof miles ,in the turbo charged engine scenario the turbo needs time to be cooled so idling will be a better option before turning of the engine or u may need to charge the complete turbo assembly
I think like with every technology you have to understand how it works in order to really use it efficiently.
Personally, I deactivated auto start/stop and trigger it manually whenever I know I'll be standing for a while, which works well for me.
I do the same. Always off, but do turn it on if I know I'm coming up to a long stop.
What you have to think is that modern engines uses a very small amount of fuel when idling, so even tho the engine being stopped does save fuel after about 7 seconds (on a specific car the reasearch was based on), the amount of fuel being saved is very small. You are going to save a lot more fuel by cruising 5kph slower or just by being more smooth during acceleration.
For reference, the GS1200 I ride gives the fuel consuption in litres/hour when I am at a stop. Idling, the engine uses something like 0.9L/hour. And note that it is a performance engine, 1170cc, 125hp, revs to 9k rpm, 1000rpm
4%-8.7%
@@electricpaisy6045 a very quick search will show that it is indeed 27% in Brazil
+1 for smooth acceleration. Smooth braking, smooth acceleration, and smooth cornering. That’s the way to do it. Not only will the car last longer and be cheaper to run, it’s also a lot safer.
@@ytaltacc8008 I was talking about the amount of fuel savings
@@electricpaisy6045 I see. But what if you spend most of your time on the highway? Or where you live there isnt a whole lot of start stop traffic? It could be way less than 4%
My impression is the reasoning was emissions and local pollution, such as in LA traffic conditions where cars maybe idling for extended periods en masse and regional air quality is directly affected.
Everyone advertising how you can save fuel but nobody actually does the math:
- how much you save per month/year
- how much tear and wear it causes which will then backfire at your little saving
Once you clear everything you'll find out that you'd be probably better off without the whole mechanism that makes your purchase price higher and service bills too. But hey, why bother. They say I can save fuel (or literally any other statement), so it has to be great!
I just wonder how often spark plugs fowl out and the strain on the serpentine belt and battery drain considering it takes more energy to get everything back in motion vs having the alt keeping the battery charged
I think it also depends on fuel prices. In most of Europe it is almost certainly a way to save money in the long run, even if there are higher maintenance costs.
Because it's not to save fuel, it's to reduce emissions!!
@@tachy635 reducing the longevity of the engine is just a nice bonus for car manufacturers
If you do the real world math you barely save any gas at all, you save enough gas over the course of a month to go an extra 2 miles if you’re on the highway and less than a mile in the city. It’s such a pointless system
My wife’s car will shutdown when you come to a stop, but turn back on as you shift from Drive to Park. I hate it.
Is it from Drive to Park, or is it Drive to Neutral to Reverse to Park?
imagine all the unlikely but nonetheless possible situations where going from a stop to a rapid reverse would make the difference of avoiding a collision or not. The annoyance of it turning back on when shifting through those gears on your way to park is outweighed by the need for reverse gear being accessible at a moment's notice.
My mazda 6 does this also, and the engine turns on if I open the car door if I don 't press the start button after it stops the engine itself.
Especially annoying when I put the car in park to open a gate so it turns off, turns back on at the open of the door then turns off after shutting the door if I don't remember to press the button :/
My Kia Soul does the exact same thing. I almost always have the stop-start feature off though. I sometimes turn it on briefly if I'm coming up to a stop that I know will be long, but otherwise, I try to have it off and never use it.
My car would need to wait 2.5 seconds before the engine stop. Most of the time I just stop for 1-2 seconds and immediatelly take off. It just shut down to immediately start again. It's enerving!
I borrowed someone's car like this and if it turned off I would creep to make it turn back on and after that it won't turn off again
7 seconds? Wow. I read somewhere a few years ago that it was about 30. Engines have really improved since then.
And all of the fuel savings ends up costing you:.. a replacement battery. Congrats😂
And a new starter motor and relays $$$
do you know what you're talking about? 2012 1.4 diesel with stop start, 1 new battery over 12 years and original starter. @@bluevalkyrie2517
Wait till you guys hear about capacitors
Start stop doesnt use the starter its a smarter technology by sparking the fuel mixture in the cylinder.
No capacitors needed.
And especially not replacing a new battery.
Batteries don't charge, or at best insignificantly, at idle, which is why you can't keep a battery charged by starting the engine and idling every couple of weeks.
In mega cities with gridlock commutes its probably useful.
That's where these cars will have the shortest lifespan and the most breakdowns.
I say no it doesn’t work out all the time,as I recall in Houston we would have stop and go on the freeways where,your stopped for a second or two and move 20 feet repeat for the next 5 miles every day till your out of certain parts of the city, so unless you sit there for 7-8 seconds causing traffic to back up more and then have cars cut in front so your almost not moving it’s not going to make a difference..
@@markim5087 There are more cities in this world than Houston. A lot of them are bigger and have denser traffic
Except it auto restarts after a minute or two so your batteries don't run dead lol
until the engine shuts off then doesnt restart when your in the center of a 3 lane road intersection. enjoy that gridlock. just think of all the idling cars waiting for the fancy one to move. lol
What sucks is when companies make it impossible to turn off without pressing that button every time you get in. Only way to permanently get rid of it on my dad's truck is to unplug the module but that also disables cruise control
Have you tried holding the button down for 5 seconds? That disables it until next time you shut the engine off, in most cars. (some also remember it next time you drive, some do not that's about 50/50)
@@AIRDRACwhere i live in Germany it's the law that it's always activated when you start the car.
You can deactivate it and drive as long as you want but when you restart the engine it's activated again.
Every car has conditions that need to be met before start&stop can activate. My car luckily has fault code in central electronics that's preventing the start&stop from activating and I'm not clearing that code out. It's a diesel with EGR blocked off and last model before DPF became normal on these.
@@AIRDRAC I didn't really type correctly. That's why I said every time you get in. Yeah I can do that but that still sucks and I always forget
My moms car stopped on her while at a light on a freeway off ramp and wouldn't start back up. Had to get towed. Any normal car would have been fine even with a bad starter until they got somewhere they actually want the car to stop at. The cars are as advertised "AS/S"
These starters used in start/stop are special and cost about $400. If youre a self mechanic youll think "Oh, thats not so bad." But, the car counts how many times the engine has started and the check engine light sends a code at about 400,000 starts (about the time the starter will go out and your warranty will probably expire just in this timeframe too). To get the car to restart the count it takes more than just a fancy scan tool. Only dealerships [should] have the computer to restart the start count if you don't want the car dinging the check engine light. In conclusion, youll have to pay more than the $400 starter for the work to be done. Will the fuel savings over 400,000 starts save you over $400-$800 for a starter replacement?
How often to you start your car? Even if you drive only 1km per start that’s 400.000 km,
@MerseburgerCompany in cities you could have 10 lights in 1 kilometer so if you are always in a dense city it could be as little as 40 000km
this is a big reason why older cars will always be superior to modern vehicles. there is an opportunity cost that gets bigger as you go further back in time, but I'd argue that the late 1980s through the late 2010s is the best car era to ever occur so far in terms of practicality and reliability.
@@MerseburgerCompanyOften City driving would be 10 stops per kilometer. So NOT 400,000 but 40,000
Let's work on the 'real tests' from the video and go with a 5% fuel saving. 400,000 start stops, let's just roll with 200,000 KM.
What's a larger car do these days, 12KM per litre of fuel? In Australia it's about $2 a litre or for 200K a total cost of about $34,000.
For these made up numbers you would save around $1,700 in fuel. Now calculate your actual start stops per 1KM of driving and recalculate, you may save more or less then $1,700.
But will it be enough for the replacement starter AND dealer cost to install and reset? Will the start stop wear and tear be worse for the engine long term and end up costing you more?
The smarter move is to learn to not stop if you can, look ahead, plan ahead, try to coast more because the real cost in fuel is when you accelerate and if you can help it, moving, even slowly, is still a better cost saving long term than anything else.
The problem with the auto start/stop is that it shuts off the engine as soon as you come to a complete stop, and restarts it as soon as you take your foot off the brake.
So unless you’re in significant stop/go traffic, the engine is going to be off for only a second or two.
No, did you forget about traffic lights? Lol
If all you deal with is stop signs, I definitely agree. Otherwise, if you are like the majority of the population, the study the short cited is still true.
@@cherriberri8373 I did actually, lol
I drove vehicles with that tech almost exclusively on the highway and backroads
Well, it works much better in a manual..
You have to take the gear out and let go of the clutch in order for the car to shut off, which is something you wouldn't do at a stop sign or in similar situations.
@@cherriberri8373 nope it's a joke because it doesn't take into account the average wear and tear on components and the carbon that production and replacement of those parts takes... Much like the EV cars they don't take production and replacement/ cost of maintenance and carbon it takes to make that money... They also do not take into account the environmental damage. A REAL study would compare all of those across all types of vehicles and take years to gather all the data. My money is on a Honda Civic with a four cylinder diesel for the most efficient vehicle and least environmental impact.
Also increases sadness by 4-8.7%
Arizona. A/C.
I drive a Prius, which obviously turns on and off at will but also has energy recapture from coasting. All of that energy is used to power the air conditioning non-stop in the summertime. Basically, I'm driving around with an internal combustion engine charging a battery to run the electric air conditioning. I lose about 8mpg with the A/C on
Fun anecdote - it took me about 10 hours to get home thru solar eclipse traffic, when it would normally take 3. My car doesn't have start-stop tech. Much of the extra 7 hours was spent idling and just inching forwards every few minutes. I used about 4 extra gallons of fuel compared to a trip without traffic.
So
@@Inventor1488 Soooo, hes saying it means basically nothing. 4 gallons over 7 HOURS is tiny
You could do it manually if your car is not too recent😅. You just wait until there is a lot of space in front of you to restart the engine. Good tip for your next eclips😂.
I really like the engine stop of my PHEV butbit also has a motor/generator, which is similar but beefier than a normal starter. When it restarts the drive motor give the car it's first little push to get moving and then the engine turns over and syncs without the tradional start up rev that you have when you turn a gas vehicle on. Since it's basically seamless it just sounds like when you push the oedal the engine was just really quiet andbthen started reving up as you push the pedal.
In most gas start/stop vehicles you still seem to get the traditional start rev and then engage the gearing so there is lots of noise and then a slight delay before you move, which just seems exceptionally annoying for the tiny efficiency boost so in that case I would juat turn it off.
I used to work as a mechanic for GM and had an occasion when taking my lunch break, I saw one of our customers up the street stuck at a set of traffic lights, upon approaching him and looking at the car, realised his clutch pedal sensor had failed so the engine stopped but didn’t pick up a signal to start again 😅
A further study performed in 2017 shows about 0.8 to 1.0 MPG increase in fuel economy. For the annoyance it causes, I avoid all cars that make this feature mandatory.
I don't care what anyone says. Constantly starting and stopping your engine is not good for it. Period.
4-8% saving? That has to be in city rush hour when everything stands still, and 5m frog leaps inbetween.
Ford tech here. The tech is pretty cool, but it creates a few issues, 1 obviously, your starter will go out much quicker, some manufacturers beef up the starter to compensate but not all. 2 people have been known to have their engine simply not kick back on, and they have to start it up again manually.
from what i heard the best part about it is emissions cause when you idle the exhaust makes the cat get cold so it cant work. but when you shut off the cat stays warm
Oil pressure in cylinder head
Starter
Battary
I think I'll avoid those loses and never buy one..
@calholli they're designed for it. Source: 386k miles and the only time stop start didn't start again was when I stopped for about ten mins with a high power device plugged in draining the battery (I.e. my fault)
@@20thcenturygamer22 I'd rather just burn fuel and pollute.. I like my vehicle to be a tractor.. Manual transmission and 4wheel drive, that never turns off.
Oil pressure isnt an issue
Battery lasts 3-5 years at least
Starter is not a normal design but a beefed up version.
As far as GM vehicles go.
@@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz Which means it's a really expensive starter when it goes out.. lovely
Start stop tech cars just gives me anxiety bro, like what if that thing Don’t start again lol, and everyone who had car problems will understand this feeling
Until your starter burns out and your at a green light and people are honking at you😂
Then replace your starter and battery twice as often and sooner not to mention the wear on valve train from lack of oil at start up
Is it reliable?!
On a Japanese car, you might get lucky. On the rest... barely until the warranty expires.
Properly designed ones have a more robust starter motor to fit the needs of this design
The Car Care Nut channel has a video addressing this.
@@dannygreen7473 Where is the data? Show us some numbers oh great wise one.
@@dannygreen7473 So you have data to backup your predictions or just making it up as you go along?
$9 on $100 gas x 5 à month is $40 à month. But, lábor to replace a starter motor $1100. So, $1100 /40 = 27 months = 2 years and 3 mos. Plus the loss of the vehicle usage for 3 days. So it may be better to idle. Depending on traffic & light wait times. 3-31-24
My concern is the loss of oil pressure when the engine shuts off and the car would be accelerating when the engine starts again. I don't think the extra MPG would be worth the extra wear on the engine. I see a lot of comments about hybrids. Keep in mind the hybrid uses the electric motor when taking off from a stop, not the gas engine.
Its too low to do any damage I think. but now that you said it, it makes sense, the engine is not supposed to be driven hard and stop suddenly for 10 seconds and start again
Fun fact. Every time you start and stop your engine, it's the equivalent of five hundred miles of wear. Constantly starting and stopping your engine is gonna burn out your starter, and wear out your engine prematurely. And if you have a turbo car, you can expect your turbo to wear out prematurely as well.
Never had a car new enough to have this technology.
I don't plan to. Anything built since cash for clunkers is disposable junk, and is that way intentionally.
Really ??
Dangoʻdang
I've always ª§§umed it was done youNTENTIONALLY 🤔
@@nuckels188
Automotive engineer here.
In layman's terms, the stop-start engines have different oiling systems, bearing material and an uprated starter assembly literally designed (along with the battery, engine tolerances and entire electrical system) For stop-start.
No they don't
depends on the brand
Bwahahaha.
Sure, they upgrade everything so you don't have to bring it back in as much and they end up losing money not having to fix or repair anything.
Not happening, expert.
I don't care if it works. Shutting the engine off while it's hot is damaging. Especially if the car is turbocharged. No thank you, I'll keep turning it off every time I sit inside a start stop car.
I hate that feature. There are some after-market kits to disable it, at least for Hondas and others..
So you damage your engine everytime you park the car and turn the key?🤨
@@dariolinder4508 yes if you turn it off immediately after parking, after you were just pushing the engine on a highway etc.
always let your engine idle for like 15 seconds before shutting it off so it has some time to circulate oil and coolant
@@dazeen9591 I know what you mean, that's the case in turbocharged vehicles the most. Cutting oil pressure while the turbo is spinning with 120k rpm is very bad for it.
However, are you redlining your commuter in city traffic? Unless you're a huge asshole, you're idling most of the time in stop-n-go traffic, so the engine's cooled off and turning it off won't hurt it a single bit.
Huh, I'd always wondered this, never expected the time to recover being only 7 seconds
Boys who doing burnouts everytime when they need to wait: fuel economy
ECONOMY
WHAT???
Now in winter, have fun with cool vents that are set to the highest temperature
All the cars I've driven monitor the air temperature and don't turn off the engine if its not warm enough
@@venykrid In some cases, it does not work. For example, on some Mercedes models, they do not always work in the way you are talking about
@@EverythingAwesomeTech the technology is still good but that's a bad implementation
The start stop was an effort reduce smog in the city. It helped significantly!
it make sense in a city with frequent stopped traffic. sucks for people just trying to navigate their neighnorhood stop signs
Interesting I don’t think there has been any change in Cali’s city’s at all!
Helped smog in the city?...where's the proof of that?
if you stop in front of me for 7 seconds be prepared to get a wave.
its also annoying af to be stuck behind someone who has to start their engine before driving off
It works, but, the worst side effect of starting/ stopping an engine is wear inside the engine, as when you stop the engine, oil circulation and coolant circulation also stops!
Oil doesn't drain right out when an engine stop running, it takes quite a long time to do so. Also modern engines have electric coolant pumps that work when you shut off the engine to avoid overheating from residual heat and lacks of circulation
@@sirzambo7217 I didn't say that, sir zambo. That's putting words in my mouth
That auto start/stop had been one of the worst features to ever come out for fuel efficiency for combustion engines. It stresses many components out, the oil it not working its way properly in the valves and cams and the starter is constantly in use, possibly 15-20 times more often than just turning it over from having the engine shut off completely. Let alone, many of these engines require a second smaller battery just for the auto start/stop.
There is one factor I'm missing in this video. The use of the start/stop system when the engine is still cold. My BMW's start/stop system doesn't seem to care if the engine is still cold. When I start my start. I immediately disable the start/stop system until I see my cooling liquid temp gauge has been at 90 degrees Celsius for a while (unfortunately I do not have anything to indicate the oil temperature to me...)
There's no right way to drive a car, everyone is gonna argue about anything
exactly it's personal preference.
except texting and driving. that is the wrong way to drive a car.
This isn’t personal preference though lol these are actually facts people are talking about 😅
Good to know a short 7sec is all it takes
With V6 its even shorter, but people would rather keep engines running longer even WITH that knowledge because starts "put wear on the engine"... guess what else puts wear on the engine??
@@cherriberri8373 Most of the wear on an engine is during start up. That is a well known fact.
@@cherriberri8373idling puts very little wear on an engine. Anyone who isn't a dolt knows that startup is where 90% of wear comes from. And those parts that the engine will need more often are not carbon free... It's always about money, they don't care about you or me or the earth... Just follow the money.
My brother had a limousine company, one of his drivers would leave the car running because he thought turning the car back on uses so much gas that it’s better to leave it on for hours on end. That driver lost the company so much money. I wish he could watch this video.
Shutting off the Auto Start-Stop was one of the very first mods i did to my GTI Clubsport once just got my OBD-Eleven once it was new! 👍
tons more work for the starter motor
I can see my mileage dropping when I sit idling at a light. It made a pretty big difference in my hybrid. The higher your average mpg, the more idling pulled it down.
Well yes, youre using fuel going nowhere so your miles traveled per gallon of fuel used is going to go down.
... Did you just discover common sense?
Much different in a hybrid.
My car takes several minutes to update, so it's rare to see it change. When I reset my trip-A odometer, it refuses to display L/100m for about a minute... and the longer I go before resetting it, the longer it takes for it to update.
My trip-B fuel per 100m is based on about 2km right now, and takes a lot to get it to change value.
So, I'm wondering if your car only bases your mileage on the last few minutes or so. Thus, it will visibly change since it is discarding old data for new, instead of keeping it all.
I'm pretty sure mine is just going : you've used X litres of fuel and driven Y km, then dividing down to a fuel per 100 meters. Which is why the more distance I rack up between resets the more run time needed to change the value.
Lag between being stopped with engine off and going again is not very fun. Also more wear and tear on the starter. But sure it saves you a little bit of money in the long run depending on the starter.
Even if it could be done, I do not wish this System on a car with carburateurs, or older Cars that take a while to start
This is why you get a hybrid. No starter to worry about wearing our.
I drive about 30k miles a year, so I picked up a Camry Hybrid LE and am getting about 55 MPG, even though the estimated MPG is 52.
Maybe in 10 years, I may have to replace the small battery pack for $3000. But I'm not going to be replacing a $600 starter and saving $1400 in brake jobs, plus over $5,000 in gas I will be saving.