How Netflix builds a culture of excellence | Elizabeth Stone (CTO)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 พ.ค. 2024
- Elizabeth Stone is the chief technology officer of Netflix. She previously served as vice president of product data science and engineering, and as vice president of data and insights, at Netflix. Before Netflix, Elizabeth was vice president of science at Lyft, chief operating officer at Nuna, a trader at Merrill Lynch, and an economist at Analysis Group. In our conversation, we discuss:
• Elizabeth’s advice for career advancement
• Netflix’s unique high-performance culture
• How, and why, Netflix maintains a high bar for excellence
• Intentional leadership practices
• How to foster an “open door” culture within your team
• The Keeper Test and how it contributes to maintaining a high bar for excellence
• The power of transparent communication
• Much more
-
Brought to you by:
• Vanta-Automate compliance. Simplify security: vanta.com/lenny
• Sendbird-The (all-in-one) communications API platform for mobile apps: sendbird.com/lenny
• Explo-Embed customer-facing analytics in your product: explo.co/lenny
Find the full transcript at: www.lennyspodcast.com/how-net...
Where to find Elizabeth Stone:
• LinkedIn: / elizabeth-stone-608a754
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: / lennysan
• LinkedIn: / lennyrachitsky
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Elizabeth’s background
(04:36) Life as CTO vs. VP of Data
(05:57) The role of economists in tech companies
(08:32) Using economics to understand incentives
(10:07) Success and career growth
(20:15) Setting expectations
(25:02) Advice for how to avoid burnout
(27:44) Netflix culture: high talent density
(30:31) Netflix culture: candor and directness
(31:45) The Keeper Test
(39:01) Maintaining a high bar for excellence
(43:54) Netflix culture: freedom and responsibility
(46:18) Unconventional processes at Netflix
(47:55) Examples of candor
(51:44) Data and insights team structure
(01:00:12) Staying close to teams
(01:02:31) Advice on being present
(01:07:40) Lightning round
Referenced:
• What to Know About the Netflix Cup, Today’s First-Ever Live Sports Event: www.netflix.com/tudum/article...
• Ann Miura Ko interview | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast): • Ann Miura Ko Interview...
• Netflix culture: jobs.netflix.com/culture
• No Rules Rules: Netflix and the Culture of Reinvention: www.amazon.com/No-Rules-Netfl...
• Reed Hastings on LinkedIn: / reedhastings
• Netflix’s “Keeper Test” and Why You Need It | Lorne Rubis: www.highlights.lornerubis.com...
• The Hunger Games: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hun...
• Nan Yu on LinkedIn: / thenanyu
• Work Life Philosophy: jobs.netflix.com/work-life-ph...
• The Scoop: Netflix’s historic introduction of levels for software engineers: blog.pragmaticengineer.com/ne...
• Chaos Monkey: www.techtarget.com/whatis/def...
• Ali Rauh on LinkedIn: / ali-rauh
• Keith Henwood on LinkedIn: / keith-henwood
• Jeff Bezos’ Morning Routine of Puttering Around-How It Works: / jeff-bezos-morning-rou...
• What I Talk About When I Talk About Running: A Memoir: www.amazon.com/What-Talk-Abou...
• A Fine Balance: www.amazon.com/Fine-Balance-R...
• Triangle of Sadness on Hulu: www.hulu.com/movie/triangle-o...
• Beef on Netflix: www.netflix.com/title/81447461
• Fellow pour-over coffee set: fellowproducts.com/products/s...
• Peloton bikes: www.onepeloton.com/shop/bike
Production and marketing by penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Personally, it feels so empowering to see someone with this kind of gentle introverted communication style in a top managerial role, and thriving, and appreciated!
There is nothing gentle about ES. You should speak to someone in netflix.
@@var309 why? is she different than this video?
Extremely. Amazed viewers can’t see the cold, ruthless , robotic, unemotional vibe.
@@var309 I was wondering that when I was watching her instead of listening. She reminds me of the functional psychopaths when I used to be a handler at a psychiatric ward. She gave me that vibe when watching her. Listening to her did not trigger that vibe.
@@congeedaily bit extreme no? unless someone has specifically worked with her and verified it, taking this with a grain of salt
She looks like Trinity. This is Very insightful. I like it how she talks about the last 5% making something world class. Thank's Lenny for bringing us world class content.
She even dresses like Trinity.
💯
Elizabeth Holmes
She is creating matrix... I was going to say samething.. Ditto trinity
She did some kind of classes on how to present herself in a very polished and persuasive way, some acting coaching, there is a certain professional aura about how she is carrying herself, which speaks about the attention to details.
The calmness and the way she answered each of your questions made me love this episode. Excellent work thanks a lot for the interview. Most of the time leadership related talks are damn too boring, it was the complete opposite!
"Am I passing your keeper test?" That's the level of manipulation and terror-induced control I aspire to have once I have a company! Very inspiring!
OMG. That "pay it forward" final note. Talk about ending on an extremely high-note. Thanks, Lenny, for giving the spotlight to people like Elizabeth Stone and so many others. She comes across as a someone who has very high standards, yes, but who also is s fountain of wisdom and generosity.
The section on Setting expectations that starts at 20:30 is Gold!!
Yes
This has to be one of the best Lenny's podcast. Elizabeth is the real life Trinity :-). You can feel her genuineness and her desire to connect at a deep human level. What a CTO Netflix has.
If only they had a culture of excellece in their content.
Thank you - Lenny, Elizabeth - demonstrating curiosity, calmness, presence/being present, and desire for a pursuit of excellence. This is superb!
Thank you Lenny and Elizabeth for a great interview. So many takeaways , quite a few that personally resonate with me and many to learn from and build on. Elizabeth, I love the calmness with which you answered all the questions, I could see that you were actually being present and mindful with every response, definitely something I'm going to be working on ..now that I feel so inspired by you!! Thanks you once again for a great conversation.
Thank you for sharing this Lenny and Elizabeth. Great start to the week for me just listening and learning from this.
Elizabeth Stone is incredibly impressive, surely a massive intellect. However, by her own admission on aspects of the Netflix culture that "don't come naturally to humans": candid feedback and the "keeper's test", seem draconian or akin to the "Hunger Games". How can employees feel safe in an environment where your days are numbered, where a "keepers test" is hanging over everyone like the sword of Damocles? When feedback is a sign of a strike against you? If this is Netflix's culture, it is a culture of fear.
If you're somebody who wants to do a great job and grow professionally, a culture of honest feedback is the opposite of a "culture of fear".
@olenew You can have all the best intentions, have a great work ethic, but if you don't pass the "keepers test," you're out. As Elizabeth says, "It's not about the number of hours you put in, it's about the quality of the job..." You can try your hardest, but if you can't keep up with the pack, you're done.
@@MrZ4speed She talks about the 1000 times she pair-drafter a better doc. I did not get from this interview that this is something they do every week and after 100 greens, if you get 1 red, you're out. Annual performance reviews are scary, this may be too, but they're more honest.
Similar to Tesla, some companies want performance > sweet wholesome environment. Nothing wrong with that. It attracts a certain personality type, and if it’s not for you so be it. From the interview it seems Netflix compensates accordingly and even has unlimited vacation hours which seems pretty neat.
I dont think we can do thorough assesment of a Netflix culture out of 74 minutes long interview with one person.
Clear, Knowledgeable, Self-Aware interviewee (Great questions Lenny)
This was a fascinating interview. Nice job Lenny. It was a pleasure listening to Elizabeth who is sharp, shared useful nuggets, and has a calming presence about her.
This episode touched so many unspoken aspects of leadership and just being a dedicated individual in life, I loved every bit of it. Lenny, at 36:49 you asked Elizabeth the question that plagued my mind when I saw this episode's intro blurb on LinkedIn, so thank you for that.
Her inputs were amazing and then we got to the lightning round and she talked about my favorite books by Murakami and Mistry, it just made her suddenly human. Made me smile.
Great guest, great host - thank you!
Wow, all this to deliver a streaming service that is now barely a better deal than Blockbuster. Thank god we're putting the right talent density into that pinnacle of human achievement.
I mean that’s a leadership problem in those other spaces. Strong talent costs money and willingness to say no to the “I need warm bodies” mentality.
Excellent interview. Thank you!
Fantastic interview - saving to rewatch again later
I watched the whole thing, lots of great insights here, thank you.
Simple and powerful truth - thank you for being a high agency leader
Amazing discussion and energy from both! Thanks for both for this insightful sharing
I admire her as a person and her capacity...lovely insight! Just seeing SAG Award live on Netflix, they've started rolling it LIVE
Love this interview. As a product leader, it has helped me to reflect how I show up for others. Thanks Elizabeth for your candid insights how to be a great leader!
I like that , it's not about the long hour but the will for excellence. And the standard the quality.
That was a great interview! Great questions. Great and thoughtful responses.
very calming. advice at the end lifts up morale
This was fantastic - I usually skip through interviews but there were so many gems and her direct response style kept me interested!
Many good nuggets that are essential to effective leadership. My first time hearing about The Keeper Test. Not something I would consider frequently but definitely at least once a year or during organizational realignment.
Excellent Interview and Podcast / TH-cam Video. Thanks. Great, so detailed and useful. Netflix for me is the best streamer in the world for me, based on the content they show. We want more... - Thanks
After watching the interview, I have no doubt that Elizabeth is an extremely capable professional. However, I fail to see how Netflix’s culture is a desirable thing.
We don’t have annual performance reviews. But we do have 360s. But they don’t matter. But we have annual bonus performance reviews…
So, then you do have annual reviews along with permanent feedback loops. Nothing wrong with that. But if the culture is so “candid”, then why bother with all that crap about no annual reviews?
Same thing with the amount of work:
We want world class results so that extra 5% matters. But we don’t work crazy hours. But you need to be present and respond quickly all the time. But you have unlimited vacations. But you need to constantly demonstrate that you deserve the position. But we will help you see what is expected of you. But we will micromanage the hell out of you if we don’t like what we see, and we will seriously consider whether we’d feel better if you just left.
If that culture works for them, great. For me, it sounds as desirable as having a root canal procedure every other week.
She explained that in a way that freaked me out. Surely, not an inclusive culture. Mistakes are not allowed. Lady perfection is ruling here.
netflixer here: mistakes are allowed and we even prepare for them, but you should be able to learn from them. if you don't learn, you won't stay for long.
the culture is very much built around candor, but you don't get to express that every day when you're loaded with your usual day-to-day job demands. it requires you to be mindful and ask for feedback regularly, so it doesn't come as a surprise when you get your annual 360 reviews. the annual 360 review is more like a "wrap-up" feedback for the whole year, while the constant day-to-day feedback is like fine-tuning your job over the year. if you don't fine-tune, you won't stay for long.
I don't see why you think that micromanagement is part of what happens here. Setting the right expectations with your peers can be done through something as simple as a brag document. I do enjoy the unlimited holidays and leverage them very much, in the same way, if I feel like I might have to work a weekend or another, I'll happily do so and take some days off right after the delivery. if you don't set expectations right for both your team and yourself, you won't stay for long.
if you dislike that, you will always have a company that doesn't do any of that but will still fire you when you disagree with someone a little more powerful than you with no explanation ;)
@@armand1m I appreciate you took the time to respond. Regretfully, most of your response reinforced my perspective.
Any real leader by modern standards, in any company, will ensure they have continuous feedback loops across their teams. But to call that a "no annual reviews culture"? Come on... a pig with lipstick is still a pig.
If the kool-aid stops you from seeing the hypocrisy here and instead pushes you to counter with a cheap, biased, and simplistic "you will always have a company that doesn't do any of that but will still fire you when you disagree with someone a little more powerful than you with no explanation ;)" then you are only reinforcing my view.
Culture IS what a company does day-to-day even when teams are bogged down with high workloads. Culture isn't a declaration of intentions left for when the sun is shiny.
If a leader rolls up their sleeves and jumps into their team's deck to "show you how its done" - like Elizabeth said she does very often - they are literally micromanaging that team. The fact this might be acceptable behavior under some circumstances doesn't mean it isn't micromanaging.
Speaking of acceptable behavior, of course you can take vacations in EMEA! What would impress me is if you move to the the US and pull that off here consistently.
@@Lossengwath I think you may be projecting your past experiences here, but that's not for me to evaluate. But I do agree that being in EMEA gives me a better version of the Netflix culture than my US fellows. That, unfortunately, doesn't highlight anything about Netflix culture to me but about the US's working culture. Micromanaging has many different flavours, and so far even compared to other European companies I've worked at, Netflix is the one that minimizes it the best way possible IMO. I've had people micromanaging me in small companies in NL as well as even at Netflix, the difference was that when I told them they were doing that, the folks at Netflix at least did something about it. Vacations wise, Netflix is also doing better for me than other European companies would. Don't know what else I can tell you, other than maybe try joining and seeing for yourself ;)
100% toxic Amazon like culture they will be awarded best place to work as usual
I remember a college professor who used that exact same line, "building a culture of excellence" and would throw around the term excellence like she does. Then we found out professor excellence was also sleeping with his students.
People who say this are a red flag. 100%. Netflix is a cancer, underpaying the people who make the content and hogging all the money for themselves. Psychopaths.
what happened after? did he get fired?
Amazing episode! ❤
I've probably conmented at most 5 times on YT.
I don't know how I feel about her without sounding cynical or personal, but she sounds pretty "soulless".
Forgive me, but I'm not sure of a better fitting word to describe how I genuinely feel about her.
I hope I'm wrong and that people actually enjoy their lives meaningfully working with her.
It's truly great that she shows up for her team and doesn't leave people hanging when she's a blocker or stakeholder in decisions.
What an interesting person and an interview, thank you both!
I am still confused about the Netflix culture - how does it not become political, when everyone tries to be on the good side with their manager and please them instead of doing what's right? Seems like this would work only if managers are top notch themselves and avoid being political or biased. But knowing humans I doubt it's the case.
As long as there are two or more people, there is politics. You are correct. Any organization with that many employees and high standards means there will be many opportunities to not properly align one's efforts and navigate the ever-shifting priorities of leadership's focus. Interpersonal conflicts in companies that have a strong focus on controlling an environment defined as best practices can result in very detrimental covert punitive reactions.
Depending on your personality and desire for compliance and the halo effect, these work cultures can feel very oppressive.
It does become political. The woman who came up with Netflix's cultural manifesto was eventually outed, but the culture of excellence didn't get rid of Reed Hastings when he proposed the disaster that was known as Qwikster.
Damn she’s impressive, goals right here
Elizabeth is brilliant. So many nuggets to personal, professional and leadership culture nuggets in this interview. Her authenticity comes through so efforlessly--I guess it won't be authentic if there was effort involved. Thank you for a fantastic interview.
What a pleasant and inspiring conversation. Thank you for this, Lenny!
New corporate lingo...I, too, will be puttering around in the AM :)
This is hard to watch. Corp BS 101.
I am building a culture of excels. I am working in finance.
Probably the most insightful thing I heard in decades. Elizabeth is Goat. Thanks Lenny. Great content.
Name one original thought you heard
Wow she mentioned Murakami. I’m inspired. If she likes it and is successful, I mean why not me?!
"something good happens everyday" love it
The irony. The company looking for the most talented engineers have a economist as their head/CTO.
Elizabeth seems really great. Such great insights and hard fought lessons shared. Really glad this video came across my feed.
Keeper test is just stress inducing method. Imagine a couple running a keeper test each day. A good culture should develop others
Yeah netflix has one of the worst cultures around. amazon being worse lol
Read more about Netflix culture. They are not a family, they run like a professional sports team.
The Keeper Test + no performance reviews feels like something Steve Jobs would do (I just read this book about Apple under Steve Jobs - Insanely Simple by Ken Segall)
Good to see trinity is doing well.
Wow..this is such an amazing video/interview. Literally a well of knowledge, thank you for sharing!
Economics is a thought process, you start with concept and distill it for applications..provided R² value aligns; the hard part is explaining to non Economic's people or worst people that thing they know
Very is definitely a gem and very likable
Must be good at BJ to get a job
Thumbnail made her look like Elizabeth Holmes.
Well, she's a con, too.
She is impressive, she tends to excel in any given role that is thrown at her. People like her are what we call Generalists, they are able to thrive in many different roles. This talk was great!
How do you know, bot
Amazing interview, this Elisabeth Stone is incredibly intelligent and sensitive, and she closes the interview saying that she is triathlete and cyclist. ❤❤❤
I enjoyed it a lot.
Very cozy person. W podcast
I really enjoy this interview. Thank you.
Nice one Trinity
I dunno. To each their own…-all this human greed for self loathing to prove ourselves and others worthy of recognition over doing something “remarkable” which no one will remember you for in 20 years from now. I think I very much rather stay a small company which provides best quality as possible with lots of love without losing my sense of human essence along the way and remind myself of the nature of all human beings: one day we will die. And non of it will matter. What will matter isn’t if you now are CTO whereas before you were COO. All that will matter is: who will carry your name in their hearts and move on when you no longer can leave a footprint…like I said, it’s all points of view, right?
If you live in one of the global world capitals NY, LDN, SF, HK, SG etc ... this approach makes a lot of sense and is a good way to get promoted quickly. If you live anywhere else its a good way to spin your wheels in place and go mad. Worth adding you also have to be intelligent, healthy and somewhat lucky to get to a position like hers. But on the question of if this is worth having? I say YES
Fantastic!
Her name is like the name of an action movie star. The fierce Elizabeth Stone ( Tomb Raider ) or Elizabeth Stone the CEO of Neurotech in that crazy sci-fi movie. It's funny because she is at Netflix.
Appreciate the insight... not sure if I have ever seen anyone approach structure this way in such a large company. She looks like Carrie-Anne Moss and Jamie Alexander had baby!
That was an awesome interview. I agree she reminds me of Trinity. Netflix has a gem there - definitely a keeper.
OMG i thought its trinity from matrix .. but very deep insights .
this is like work where the impossible does not exist
The day Netflix learns to 1/ point me efficiently to the movie I was watching last and 2/ not auto play every silly movie my mouse hovers over and 3/ give me one decent recommendation based on my previously watched movies, I will believe in their culture of excellence.
99% of the shows and movies they produce are anything but excellent
Listening to an executive explain a meteoric career growth is funny. There is a whole army of people in every industry who have incredibly "high standards" who will never become a CTO. Every highly paid executive is significantly better at navigating corporate politics than 99% of employees. They form relationships which insulate them more than "normal" employees. Reed Hastings was never ousted because of Qwikster. Wonder how that happened with such an excellent culture of feedback.
lol sure
Loved this podcast ❤
Hi Elizabeth, where can I apply for a job with you as my manager? (should mention that I am a German in Germany and into privacy :)
New C-level crush ❤
You know what you need to do at her level to get these jobs…
Looking at the thumbnail I though Elizabeth holmes was released from jail, and she started working at Netflix lol.
Wow this person has potential of being the next CEO down the line. Fan of this person.👌
Yes, no experience but failing up up up
so she's the CTO but without a tech degree and without working a tech job? i guess you just need to be a bit more tech savvy than your boss to succeed!!
i like her talking ngl
Primeagen trimming the bushes
Wokeflix will see it's downfall
Working for an organisation that recognises excellence is also a contributing factor. Not organisations that tell you no matter how much you excel you will never get more than "met expectations"
This makes me want to work at Netflix so much 😢
That’s their strategy…
Not sure if that's Trinity or Monica.
its Elizabeth :)
Her energy level is interesting for her role. She seems so laid back and accessible, but she must be a killer on the technical side. She reminds me of an infj personality type. Highly intelligent but often overlooked for promotion, but when they are in leadership, they are absolutely an iron rock.
"Am I passing your keeper test?" sounds psychopathic to be honest
Really starts at 4:35
she would make you proud for being fired
So this is why Netflix keeps recommending The Matrix
We don’t have performance reviews, we just have compensation cycles and a keeper test - so basically we just stress out employees all the time and push ourselves to in human. She sounds deranged and something out of hunger games
i mean...if the morale is good in her sector overall, maybe it is better than performance reviews for their company. unless word gets out otherwise, we dont know
I’m spending a lot of time thinking about this exact topic recently. On one side I see a lot of toxicity coming from engineers not trusting each other, i.e. seeing some people work less, put in less effort, being assigned to tasks they shouldn’t be working on. The keepers test and keeping people to high standards is a realistic solution. But this reminds me of the people with 10+ years experience. They don’t care about any of this and just want a secure unstressful job. It’s just the younger folks who feel like they have to prove something. At the end of the day it doesn’t matter. Netflix would be where it is today either way.
i think it’s all good if it’s balanced - which sadly it’s not.
If that is authentic, hire me. I have worked and innovated Live sport steaming for 17 years. Truly.
A masterclass in canceling promising shows after one season 👏🏽
Elon Musk studied economics
She won’t pass a keeper test
Culture of excellence? Netflix? Wow lol.
I thought their culture was DEI
weird, they pay their engineers insane amounts of money, much more than places like Google and Facebook...
That’s how she got on top
I thought she was Monica (From Friends).
What a terrible company to work for …
Here is my feedback as a user for over 10-15 years. The recommendation engine sucks for me. I am so happy I read in the newspapers about “Blue eyed samurai” which was excellent , otherwise I would have missed it in the noise of choice. Sometimes I feel that these recommendations are simply designed to keep you checking and logging into Netflix in the hope that something might catch my attention even if the original recommendation was foolish. This certainly goes along with a typical streaming strategy of massive over-production of content with the hope that someone might like something. Overall, I want fewer shows but better quality, but I understand that I am not a usual consumer. I would rather have 5 great shows per year than 100 mediocre ones.
Seems like hitler
my secret sauce... I'm part of the 1% richest of the world with all its network 😎
Is this self patting on the back ?
CAT
Inside the Wokistan
Bullshit
sorry Netflix movies suck
When a corporate head starts talking about excellence, it means just one thing: they are completely disconnected from the employees and its culture. That's it. Don't thank me for saving your time on watching pointless video!