Burning Lands is the BIGGEST SCAM in Milsim Gaming History
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 มิ.ย. 2024
- What an absolute dumpster fire. Good riddance and please refund if you've backed this project.
Make sure to check out FriendlyNikolai's video here: • Exposing the Burning L...
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0:00 - Intro
0:38 - What is Burning Lands?
1:33 - My History with ChanceBrahh
2:47 - History of Taking Advantage of Creators
5:26 - Developer Strike
6:05 - The Fallout
8:29 - Kickstarter Refunds
8:58 - Chance's Official Statement
12:42 - Dead Game
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#games #gaming #kickstarter - เกม
There you go Chance, a 14 minute long video about your game
😂
Someone's been really, _really_ careless with their wish.
@@Kanjilearner One finger on the monkey's paw has curled.
I didn't realize he was soliciting personal Paypal payments from creators until I heard from Sherman about it. Fucking wild.
its fucked and we havevt heard anything about a refund even after asking a number of times
It just keeps getting worse.
This is Chance! Never change.. thats for sure.
Literal scam
And asking them to send it as a friends and family payment which is against PayPals policy. People who sent these payments should report his PayPal.
It's insane that people worked on this for years without getting paid. Hopefully this is a lesson learned.
that’s usually how it goes for the beginning of a brand new team. i’m more surprised they stayed with the obviously scummy and toxic ceo
I wouldn't work more than a month without being paid
@@littletweeter1327 maybe sunk cost? 🤔 I can imagine it being hard to walk away from a project that you've invested so much into and your comp only comes when it sells. I hope these past devs signed legit contracts that'll get them paid for the work they did should this game limp onward and get sales.
Thats not uncommon for new developers or indie teams who dont have funding.
It's not unheard of in the video game industry, especially with teams that have little funding. Often, people will work on games for free because they love doing it, they are trying to get professional experience under their belt that will look good if they apply for positions at other companies and because they dream of making a "hit game" that will lead to a massive payout.
"The Developers I haven't paid in 3 years and Don't Consider to even be employees are now refusing to work for me."
Signed a shit contract. What can you do? Kick yourself and move on.
He did the old "i'll pay you in experience" shtick.
@@UndergroundCandy Partially on them for wanting to delay the release to continue working on it
Guess its back to RS2 gents.
Anti ass defences will be active.
Or Arma unsung
welp
😂 why runescape 2?
RS2 is bae ❤️ let us please return
Wait. He literally tried Nigerian Princing you?
This is Volodymyr Z.
“If they aren’t able to work under certain conditions”…”then maybe this project isn’t for them” all I needed to hear to clue me in on the work culture for this project
Yeah, like if 1-3 people out of 22 were having issues, then MAYBE that excuse could cut it, but when 19 out of 22 are on strike, that’s a clear problem with management.
Even more delusional considering he wasn't paying them anything. I've done unpaid internships where I was treated better.
Well this sucks because I was very excited for this game… we need more Vietnam milsims.
I'd argue we need a Korean War milsim. It's a great point in time where tech was exactly between WWII and Cold War.
@NakedOwl501 and the knowledge on that war is _severely_ lacking amongst everyone!
I vote for more of both, myself, but yeah, Korean War milsim games should be way more abundant
yeah, a more squad/pr-like rising storm would be so nice
@micaheiber1419 lol and yet the PRC makes a movie about it. I love geopolitics
@micaheiber1419 Game devs aren't beholden to official stances of the US government, thankfully.
The government can make a small, technically official statement in some memo somewhere denouncing the portrayal of unofficial standings of official events, but they won't do shit. Well, they shouldn't, anyway. And if they do and side with China's official narrative....
_Well..._
This is not just a red flag, this is red flags with more red flags on it. Also the devs worked for 3 years on it... without ever getting any money? Wtf?
That's a contract bud, they get paid when it releases. They also wanted to delay the release but start getting paid with 0 money in the company. So yeah, dumb af right?
I mean yeah…they did it to themselves….
@@andym5771 mhm not a lot of people understand how these processes work, basically the devs shot themselves in the foot, waste of game and waste of time with no pay at the end.
@@CryptoGod-il6nb Devs with integrity that wanted the best for their passion project, rather than for Chance to cash out.
@samconroyy then they could have funded it themselves? You can't have it both ways.
We want contract reviews and leadership reforms.
We don't want you to KS because it's a passion project and not ready.
In Australia, we have something called "Workplace Health and Safety Laws". They vary from state to state, but either way, this includes contractors (if they are contractors as the CEO said). They should find a lawyer and talk to the Fair Work Commission immediately. This is absolutely shocking, I hope the developers can take this to court.
even if they win, if the guy doesnt have any money, is it really a win. you might end up paying in the long run, layer fees
If he gets the KS money they could probably go after him for it
I said something very similar in a comment on BigFry's video.... this Chance guy doesn't seem to understand that our workplace safety & labour laws cover _all_ types of employees, whether they are salaried, casual workers or contractors. Even if he tries to argue that they are independent contractors in a business service agreement, he still has responsibilities. Frankly, he sounds like he has no business nous or experience but is trying to bluff his way through... and it's just not going to cut it.
@@waynegriswold8953 yeah but i'd consider it a public service to prevent Chance from taking advantage of any other devs by suing his ass into the ground.
Even if they don’t win money in court, is it possible they can be awarded rights to the project?
Hope the devs will save all this assets and mod squad
There is a Vietnam mod in development actually
Yeah hopefully all the devs work doesn’t go to waist.
@@chugachuga9242they could probably take it and make their own game
@@jacksonkingdom5367the squad Vietnam mod has been in development for years, at this point I don’t think it’s coming
Chance probably owns all they made though.
As a creator, I've seen some questionable behavior on the part of developers at times. I strongly dislike the way Chance conducted himself in his conversations with you. It shows a lack of understanding of what it is we do and the value it provides to games and associated communities. The proposal to send funds to a personal account is absolutely a red flag and you were right to pop the brakes and start asking questions.
It is also incredible (if true) that contractors haven't been paid at all over the last three years. At this point, don't refer to them as contractors. They are volunteers. There is nothing (unless there are signed contracts and guarantees) that prevents Chance from simply taking the money and running. Perhaps that's not the goal, but the team absolutely should be demanding financial transparency before the game goes further. The fact that they are, and in the manner they are, communicates deep distrust behind the scenes. In my experience, when the bulk of an organization is ready to walk out (if they're not being paid, what do they have to lose?), then there are major problems or a total loss of confidence in leadership.
The team's demands are reasonable, and frankly necessary if the game is to grow beyond its current state. In fact, without the conditions being met, it's highly unlikely anyone will support the title financially in the future. That would be a tragedy for the developers, especially since they donated time and energy to the project. Hopefully there's still a chance to save the game.
Great video and summary of the situation.
The distinction between volunteer and contractors need to be made - being a contractor implies having signed a contract which would have stated wages. It's also important to note that contractors really don't have *much* of a say in how a company functions - you're just there to do your part of the job, nothing else.
Whoever has heard of burning lands I hope they see this video. Its great to have someone looking out for us
Anyone who saw backers only weapons and still donated deserves to be scammed
I’ve worked at several AAA game development studios, and this whole affair reads like a microcosm of the (unfortunately) common disconnect between management and the creative team. It can be exhausting, counterproductive, and soul crushing, but it pays the bills. When it doesn’t even have the courtesy to do that it’s just insanity.
Its a problem across most industries, managers who have never done the job they are managing so have no idea what it's like for the regular employee and what it requires or simply do not care about the wellbeing of their employees as they get benefits from taking advantage of them then replacing them once they get fed up or exhausted and leave. Often leading to stupid decisions because it seems like a good idea but to anyone who's actually done the job they know it only makes things worse.
Than there are the people who outright use their position to be lazy and put the least amount of effort in because they can because "delegation". I've come to the conclusion its human nature since it's so very rare to find a competent, empathetic manager who understands that if their team are not happy or have problems than its their job to fix it because otherwise things will start to go wrong and quality will rapidly drop. So many people don't realise that most of the job of a manager is to manage the people, that includes their work related problems and morale. If your team is unhappy it means YOU have failed and you should take responsibility for it, unlike Chance did.
Is that why games like cod come out poopy? And why most AAA games feel like theyre missing something when its obvious to the common player?
@@0utlawactual363 Yes and no, sometimes the management of a video game can be fine, but the executive management in a development studio becomes the problem, especially as they enforce the directives of those higher than them.
Obviously, it’s a very complex process. However, I can say that a lot can and does go wrong when it is more important that you make a release date rather than a game.
you also work for 3 years without getting paid?
I had a very brief interaction with Chance about 2 years ago. I had been following Burning Lands from small scraps of information before joining their Discord and starting to interact.
I decided to apply to be a partnered creator as I am a partner with Hell Let Loose as a twitch streamer but was quickly denied by Chance as my excitement wasn't real to him since I hadn't created a TH-cam video about their screen shots yet.
I had zero issues with being denied but thought it was a pretty bad excuse as there was only a few screen shots and some very scarce information to go off.
Three or four months later another discord member recommended me as a partnered creator again because of my involvement with Hell Let Loose.
Kinda glad I dodged the bullet here it sounds like
Damn he even wanted to waive the $65 entry fee? I and ~40 others paid him directly, to his PERSONAL paypal email as a Friends and Family payment, don't think we'll be seeing that money back
Bruh
@@MoiDawg Bruh
@@zde1532 bruh
Bruh
Lmao, why were you so dumb? This was an obvious scam
The Director likes to state that the people working on the game are "contractors" and do not have the right to strike.
Contractors GET PAID too y'know. "Contractors" do not work for free.
Seems like a shoddy lot going on here. But, then I would never have worked for 3 years for nothing either! Been screwed over by amateur-hour dev companies before.
@@capitchayou work for no pay?
@@capitcha No, that's not how it works. Moron.
@@capitcha No, that's how "volunteering" works. A contract normally involves getting paid for the work you are contracted to do.
@@satiricalzero you are right and i was wrong
This mans reputation is utterly ruined. No one in the gaming industry will ever trust him again.
I will never support anything that has his name on it that's for sure. He can kick rocks
@@Shreddylife i knew it would be a scam because he mentioned kickstarter
People express surprise about this stuff, despite the obvious fact prominent milsim content creators have a long and sordid history of shilling for game devs and publishers. They actively promote certain titles while doing whatever they can to suppress competing games, all the while denying they're doing it even though it's very obvious to everyone who isn't stupid. For instance, look at the involvement of certain content creators in relation to Hell Let Loose and Post Scriptum.
Cough* It was all about the "Yuan" *Cough
Yup. Just look at all the HLL content creators shilling for BL (a competitor) but destroy OHD, while having zero ounce of critical ability towards HLL.
>Dev says Chance went to team17 for funding
>HLL/team17 marketers now suddenly promote BL
>HLL 2 announced 2 years prior and now "Hell let loose:vietnam?" used by team17 'independent contractors'
>kickstarter is grossly similar to HLL and even includes v1 console release, exactly like HLL did
>hires well known HLL figure to be CM
Soo many red flags
@@saulshennan6825 You know Karmakut real name is Ryan Yuan ? Karmakut promoted HLL against Post Scriptums. He was promised a cut for when the Black Matter developer sell to Team17 so he switch from playing PS to play HLL only and give away keys etc. Did he get the promise cut or was he ripped off like others ? You can see he does not make HLL videos or even discuss the game now for 5 months
@@borisgetty57 "You know Karmakut real name is Ryan Yuan ?" 😉
ChanceBrahhh has always been a scumbag. These guys reached out to me circa 2017-2018 asking me to do their trailers and everytime I mentioned getting paid for it the conversations would drop.
This hurts my soul. I was really looking forward to this game. welp, here's to hoping we can get a better company to make a better game!
Hopefully the Nam mod for Squad can get worked out after the ICO update. MEE did it, I am hopefully they can too ^^. Love the videos and updates Moi!
MEE has ICO now? Count me in
@@oBlackIceo a variation of it, a lot of the overkill stuff like exaggerated weapon sway has been removed, but still have that good optic quality and the stamina change to a degree. The new suppression works as well!
@@folftasticgaming7491 oh, booo
@@oBlackIceo yea
I want to take a second to mention, this video is another reason to support creators like MoiDawg, FriendlyNikolai or any others with the integrity to smell out a bad deal and cut the relationship. instead of just taking the money pushing a scam.
It makes me wonder if he tried this on others milsims content creators like Sorensic Steel, Rimmy, and Liru
@@tsunami729 same.
@MoiDawg this is not the begining of his dodgy doings, we kicked him from our ARMA group years ago for flogging off our members mods as his own.
no disrespect to those poor devs but,how the fuck does one goes 3 YEARS working for someone without getting paid? like hello?
How do you think indie studios start
They were going to get paid by sales commission. It’s a common option in lower budget studios. Obviously, doesn’t always work out.
They were probably developing the game on the side while working another job (one that actually pays).
They all invested in some type of fruit company and they didn't have to worry about money anymore so they decided to work for free /s
It doesn't sound like any or many devs were full time. Another video on this called them consultants, offering advice. So it's safe to assume there was/is a mix of these situations. Not what I suspect many to be picturing as they listen to these alegations, that they are all working full time, completely unpaid.
And to think all of this started because this guy made a rather mid version of PR's Al Basra in Squad.
No wonder they scrubbed his name from a lot of stuff in game, man was known to be toxic. But holy hell
always fun when a grown man throwing a tantrum sinks a company
I hope that the work that was done can be saved and maybe the project can continue as a worker co-op between the devs at somepoint. If chance never paid any of the devs chances are he probobley doesn't own any of that stuff either and they can just take and run
This is what we call an "OOF!"
All we wanted was to play some Squad Vietnam 😢
THIS is the time where we should all focus on our attention to Operation Harsh Doorstop because it's still cooking in the oven but my goodness is it looking and feeling better with each update and will include so many other theatres of war, including the Vietnam War Theatre. And best part...it's all free, just gotta download and play. The new update dropping soon looks like a step in the right direction with vehicles being added in.
That name though... What's that about?
The kickstarter is now down to $38,422, below they $49k original goal. Damn.
its actually hilarious watching the numbers on the kickstarter going down
I was really close to donating to the kickstarter, dodged that bullet.
Anyone who backed it can still cancel
Me too😅
was honestly shocked how many people did / how much revenue it generated. People were saying how good it looked based on assets and footage that isn't really that dificult to string together if you have decent working proficiency in the field.
Devs that helped with games that got really big / were apart of a well known AAA studio and then left to make their own studio always go one of two ways... Super cool / chill making more awesome games or super scammy / money hungry
Damn, that's sad. Here's hoping that the devs behind 83 can get their game rights back at the new company. Need a game like this that actually has development behind it
Isnt 83 dead?
@p4nnus Last I heard they restarted development
Look up bluedot gaming I believe@@p4nnus
They dropped it for their work on the project I.G.I reboot, so unfortunately no 83 on close Future
You're out of the loop Rock.@@Rockaholic1990
I was a pre backer who gave Chance 70 bucks to help him out for burning lands. I truly did not see the scummy tactics until afterwards but I don't know what I can do. It truly sucks as I hoped for the game to far. I was ignorant I suppose.
glad ya didnt get scammed moi ...you have been a blessing for squad players.. keep up the great work
The way he talked about contractors was incredibly disgusting.
7:36 to be slightly fair in this clusterfuck, the dev clearly said that they were contributing for free in their free time.
The way he wrote it, it's pretty clear that there was no monetary payout to start with. Saying they weren't paid for 3 years is slightly misleading.
It makes it sound like they were fulltime employees which never have been paid for so long.
PR also had a lot of devs unpayed because they did it in their spare time because they liked doing that.
Linux also has a fuckton of unpayed contributers because they liked working on that proiect.
As of 11:00PM CST the Kickstarter has dropped to ~$48,600 of their all-or-nothing $49,598 goal. Currently there are some sad, confused fanboys increasing their pledges but I don't think their pockets are deep enough.
When someone uses more than 3 dots at the end of a sentence unironically, that should be an immediate red flag. Conspiracy theorists, scammers and generally people you want to avoid do this all the time. They think it gives more weight to what they're saying. Its also horribly unprofessional.
but that's just my opinion.........
I see what you did there....................
I was so exited about this game to.
People need to learn what narcissistic personality disorder is - it is a personality disorder. It isnt simple greed
That’s not a red flag..,that’s a red neon sign with marching bands and an announcer telling you “it’s a scam, run away!”
First defunded ks project before it reached the the end date however only 3k left
Was wondering why I felt random nostalgia watching this, then realized the banjo kazooie music lol. Love it
At least this ensures RS2 has a player base for the foreseeable future
You see this a lot with Australian developers, going all the way back to LA Noire. Aussies love to brag about their "safety-nets" and "workplace standards" (you even see some comments on this video doing just that), but they rarely actually live up to their claims. Also, that dev is incredibly pushy and you were right to be turned off from the get-go.
As an Australian myself, I can concur that we aren't the most trustworthy people on the planet. Sure, most countries are much much worse than us but I would definitely trust anyone else over us from other places in the Anglosphere. Further afield and compared to the Dutch, Germans or Swedes we are practically criminals. It's sad as this country was never like that when I grew up, but it has become greedy
Just like the Titan, the signs were there that it would fail but it wasn't until the final second that it imploded
Having been recruited to similar pipedream projects and quickly seeing the writing on the wall, it is actually mind-boggling to me how these guys were willing to do 3 years of work for no pay at all. It would be different if it were a mod, but it seems like the understanding here was this was always going to be a paid-for game, so why would they just keep working if they get no pay? Maybe Chance promised them all % royalties or something lol.
That's really unfortunate. I followed this game from get go. Was really looking forward to a slower paced ROV / Vietnam style squad (given vietnam mod never came true to life)
Sad to see gameplay footage and then this. Even talked to chance when this became a thing. They seemed really into it all at first.
Chance sounds like that annoying, micro-managing squad lead that ends up leading your team away from the objective and into the enemy's main base because he likes the sound of his own voice.
Wow.... it get's worse.
ResonantFPS had the exact same thing with chance asking him to pay in DM's for an early look lmao...
how can you work 3 years on something without paid? A normal person would gave up and find another job
I would had left 3< months. And that's still a lot
Damn, I’m just now finding out about this. I was really looking forward to this game, hopefully everyone can work it out.
Huh? just mod squad forget this
I think this started as a mod for squad.
looks like chance finally got your video on his game lol... this situation sucks balls.
10:00, they literally made an actual demand that one would make when your threatening a government, but deserved hope the devs of this get paid.
I remember being part of the Aussie Mod Discord back in the day and being really put-off by Chance constantly bitching and moaning about OWI not immediately buying the Aussie mod (despite them having ZERO obligation to do so). It would often go so far as to him shitting on other mod teams like the guys who made CAF originally. This really annoyed me because 1) it's immature and unprofessional as hell
and 2) I felt like this was actively harming the ADF mod's chance of actually being implemented into the game. There were OWI members in the Discord (and mod team itself) for Christ sake, have some decorum.
As it would turn out the ADF mod was not, as claimed, "a finished product" (poor performance, as I personally experienced during their playtests), which I believe was reflected in the massive delays to implement the mod once it was aquired.
To be fair I haven't seen a game with this sort of funding pay for a board of directors, but he misses the point. The devs obviously said that because they didn't trust his management, and that trust issue is what should have been addressed instead of everything they said being pushed to the side. Don't think Chance understands the responsibilities he has as a team leader, his job is not only to ensure the game is on track, but also the the team is happy with how everything is going.
The scary background music makes this video so much better lmao xD
Squad: Vietnam now has the floor and will pick up the mantle hopefully.
as one of the maybe 500 people still regularly playing rising storm 2 this hurts but if chance was gonna make it shit anyway i guess its for the best. just want a good vietnam game
It's a shame, luckily we still have Rising Storm 2. Even if that's quite old by now and not that milsim-like.
thanks for putting this out there brother.
i was in one of the dev calls and late at night after most the dev team was gone chance was talking about dipping into the funds for his own personal uses while another guy was telling him to do it while ask for him to add a dick in the river as a "easter egg" he also will use chat ai to come up with responses to the public to make him sound nicer and more professional towards everyone else
They are pumping the tires on the KS. It went below the threshold and then popped back up.
Reminds me of the escalation 1985 disaster, but this time it’s out in the open
imagine been a developer and not getting paid for 3 years and not thinking it's all going to implode before release? Come on people, stop ripping yourself off.
Devs signed a contract to get a % from the sales of the game. THEY SIGNED A CONTRACT. Once they saw that Chance was getting a lot of money from the kick starter, the devs wanted a % from that too. Again I repeat, they signed the contract in which they were not eligible for any money from kick starter. Not defending Chance here, but you signed a contract. When they saw how much money the kick starter was making they got greedy. Both Devs and Chance ruined something that could have been such a great game...
Kick starter, this is not the only gain. They tried to pull the fast one on people according to 1 of my co. Workers whose thirty years old Heard about these guys fell further trap as well. But now he reported to them and he Hasn't heard From them ever since.
The kickstarter says its subject to an intellectual property dispute and isn't available any more, yikes
Long long time ago I adopted a 'when I see it I'll believe it' attitude to such projects - particularly socially funded. Combined with not buying anything until I see a number of independent reviews.
Ouch. RIP burning lands. I was looking forward to this.
I'm still a little vague on what Chance was doing that made the devs unwilling to move forward with the kickstarter and "strike"?
"Zero hour" is such a cursed name in milsim games, you almost have to wonder if this were fated
I’m no expert on Australian employment law but if these guys are contractors but they haven’t been paid, then either they’re not actually contractors or they have a right to renumeration
Lol I just heard about this game yesterday :( and now it's gone.
Sometimes squad games take to long, I should go back tk my roots of red orchestra
I wonder if that Squad Vietnam mod can be revived?
BGM in the first half of the video made me think this was a Dead Meat video for a sec. Which comes with a trace of irony.
God damn, just cancelled my backing. Having just left an impossibly abusive workplace, and working towards starting a game studio of my own, I can't back this anymore
Rising Storm 2: Vietnam is still a great game - I'll happily play that until a serious competitor arises.
I hope it works out, because it looked like it was going to be good.
Props to the developer team for standing against those scummy scammers, trying to leech of kickstarter like many others.
I just hope next time,they dont work for free,for 3 years again. And that the devs of Zero Hour sue the 'management' s a-s
I thought Star Citizen was bad. But this is just worse.
I'm confused on how they were able to use the name Zero Hour and not get any problems with the M7 Productions, who make a game called Zero Hour with the same colour themes in the logo
"Gameplay will come soon but can't go giving you all the goodies straight away."
What a tool. "Produce content on my product! No, you can't see my product!"
Damn that sucks. I was waiting for this game:(
That's why I am looking forward to the Black Orchestra mod
I've been pumped for this game for so long then this happens.
The fact that this game looks so amazing and that the people who made it are being unpaid and uncredited is shocking.
when is it too late to pull out of the kickstarter?
wow... 15 hours later its down to 44k :D
as a guy who used to make HL mods back in the late 90s and early 2000's I know how stressful it can be trying to manage an international team but damn... at least we got Hostile Intent released :D This is gunna crash and burn.
Well this just sucks... its bad enough i have like 30 games on my steam wishlist that are "coming soon" for like years. But was looking forward to this and to no surprise, canceled.
It’s fucking sad that there’s never gonna be a home like this
So many red flags you could stitch them together and sail the seven seas.
Just checked the kickstarter. It's actually dropped underneath the 49k goal.
Burning bridges more like......dayum...... thats a awful situation. Devs I am sorry that happened to you.
As a console player who is completely fed up with Team17 and HLL this breaks my heart...i was beyond excited when they announced they will be looking to release this on console but ig thats all down the drain, we desperatly need a milsim game for console where the developers actually care.
Pulled up the Kickstarter page while watching this and the numbers are actively going down. Oof
I do hope everything works out cause I do wanna play this
Damn, was looking forward to this.