Toyota Mirai 1000 km challenge
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 มิ.ย. 2023
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When you swipe on the infotainment it responds in 4 business days. Classic Toyota
Have a Toyota Aristo from 2000 with a touch screen that has instant respons. From a time when Toyota made awesome cars.
sometimes the fuel flap won't even open...
Apparently it's become increasingly harder to make good software for cars these days...
2010 called any they want their Smart TV lag back 😂
You forgot to mention the most relevant issue. You cannot charge at home.
it better be a boat or plane, not the car
So 15min faster than a Model S on 1000km... thanks, I will keep my BEV that I can charge at home.
...and save 60% of the cost.
Yeah i don't understand that, the tesla must have been driven faster, right? Maybe it would be a good idea to add the driving and charging/refueling time seperately? I understand this is a real world test so the data is very useful and accurate for a large majority of people.
@@Neryman If you charge at home electric have been very cheap in Sweden now. Have been negative prices at nights and day time 0.04 Sek/Kwh thats 0.0035 Euro/kwh so save 99% of the cost or more and get paid on nights but im sure they dont want that with negative prices
@@swedenevguru8483 I'm from Germany, so I have no access to such cheap energy yet. 60% cost saving is still a great argument in my books. 😉
@@Neryman No dynamic contracts available in Germany?
I am surprised that EVs are only 20-30 minutes slower than hydrogen car, wow! As for me, this means basically same ride time, amazing
And in this case no detour for getting to hydrogen stations (similar as with EV). So in real world if there were some (but not absolutely everywhere) it would lose some of that advantage
You should try to get 5-10 mirais together to the filling station and document the time of filling with each car directly one after the other.
It will be horrible. Compressing hydrogen takes so long...
Best case scenario Mirai is only 15mins faster than a Model S, for 2.5 times the cost for the 1000km in day edge case. Try this same test out in California where the hydrogen refuelling stations have other users and end up with folks waiting in queues to refuel, it wouldn't take much before you loose 15 minutes.
As for infrastructure here in the UK hydrogen fuel stations are closing, owning a hydrogen car is become even less practical by the day, while in theory we could build out hydrogen refuelling infrastructure we can't fix the laws of physics and economics, HFCEV are never going to go mainstream as we have cheaper and more efficient alternative that already works just fine. The infrastructure will never build to make the small number of HFCEV practical to use for real-world long journeys.
In the US there are 50 public Hydrogen fuel stations, 49 are in California, the other is in Hawaii. Going cross country would be challenging.
Forget challenging. You'd need another car or truck to drive with you and carry hydrogen to put into your car.
How do I fuel this for free from my solar panels like I do with my Ionic 5?
Ioniq
Did someone give you the PV for free?
Crazy, if anyone wanted to refuel after you he would need to wait a looong time for the pressure to build up again. Those refueling stations are slow as hell, not to mention the insane amounts of energy required just to get to 600Bar pressure, not even considering the creation process of H².
And as far as I know the current stations are also limited per a max number of charges per day/station.
If you look up this paper - "Thermodynamic properties of hydrogen at pressures up to 1 Mbar and temperatures between 100 and 1000K", you will see that the enthalpy of hydrogen doesn't change much until 1000 bar. In fact, the authors state "At pressures below 1k bar the enthalpy remains practically constant". So, it doesn't require theat much energy to compress.
According US department of energy, it's about 3kWh/kg all in all to compress and fill the tank at 880 bar. In this test, that means 9% of consumed energy (14*3/468). Not insane at all, possibly not too far from BEV charging losses if you account for everything.
And also dont forget, sometimes they explode lmao, already happend :D
@@kenion2166 BEVs also explode and that already happened too :D
@@solverapproved No Batteries dont just "explode" the Thermal Runaway is a slow process compared to a hydrogen explosion. And LFP and future chemistries are also safe and wont even cause fire if you puncture the battery
The extreme inefficiency of this vehicle is indescribable. Approximately 50kWh of electricity is required for one kg of hydrogen. for 300km that is over 200kWh of electrical energy. That would then correspond to 700Wh/km. But the main problem is that the H2 consortium is run by oil companies and nearly 98% is derived from gas. And you can hardly drive anywhere Germany has by far the most gas stations. Hydrogen, will.never be the future because the price will be in the 40 € range. Which would then be over €600 per 1000km.
Dear Björn, you are simply the craziest guy ever. Simply brilliant and with your videos you show all manufacturers what's going on. You make an infinite contribution to electromobility. Thanks
You forgot that hydrogen needs to be transported to fueling station, and fueling station is using up 3kWh/kg to compress hydrogen so that it can be used in Mirai's tanks
There will never be an abundance of hydrogen refuelling stations.
H2 is anything but clean. It's dirtier than gasoline if you consider generation and transportation. The luxury of polluting more also costs you more money than any other fuel type. Sort of like a tax for "rolling coal". Good video though. I used to like Toyota a lot. Now there's little to like.
It's not dirtier than petrol. Petrol production + burning make -5kg- 3.3kg of CO2 per litre, if you have an efficient car that does 6l/100km, that's -30kg- 20 kg/100km. Grey hydrogen production is 11kg of CO2 per kg, so 15.4 kg/100km in this case. A coal power plant produces about 900g of CO2 per 1kWh, so if you power a Model S LR palladium with that, it will produce 20 kg of CO2 per 100km. About half of that for NG power plants.
@@logitech4873, ok, didn't read the article, trusted google's snapshot in the search results, you are right. Still, about 20 kg per 100km in an efficient car. That x-trail did 11l/100km, so more than 35 kg per 100km.
@@MrPaukann You skipped 3kWh/kg needed to compress the hydrogen into 880 bar so that it can be stored in the Mirai, and you also skipped transport because hydrogen is not being generated at that fueling station. I'm pretty sure that would exceed 20kg / 100km.
@@darekmistrz4364, " truck emits ca. 60 to 150g of CO2 per ton and a kilometer of transportation." I'm pretty sure it won't exceed 20.
@@MrPaukann Per ton and kilometer. You don't know the distance and you don't know the weight. I think hygrogen is not weight constrainted when transporting, it's more volume contrained. So I'm pretty sure when being transported by truck it might not be really well compressed. Also compression before fueling adds 4.2 kg (3*1.4kg/100km) to your 15.4 kg/100km and that will make it 19.6 kg/100km. That is dangerously close to 20kg/100km. It doesn't leave much room for mistake or if there are more processes along the chain.
19:00 Time 8:40 but in California you need to wait 20 minutes between two Hydrogen charging to let time for the pump to be ready for the next refill.
So you should add 10 minute average to each refill depending if there was or not a car charging when you arrive.
In the current driving test, a more probable final time should be (8:40 + 0:10 + 0:10) = 9:00 hours, longer than the Tesla Model S LR Paladium of 8:55.
This is not fast enough to loose the convenience of charging at home and decent length breaks.
Need a winter test also.
You can tell where Toyotas loyalties lye when comparing this to the bz4x
Just proves that range is no issue with BEVs anymore and that FCEVs are not the solution.
Love the laggy map Bjorn, very retro. Reminds me of my gremin gps back in early 2000
So, you can save 15 min over a Model S for the small price of 200% more in fuel cost...?
LOL.
and not even half the performance kekW
@@kenion2166 But at least there is no space inside for people or any cargo
Lol just 15 minutes faster than a Model S. Proves the idiocy of hydrogen for passenger cars.
It's weird. Look at the video of the Tesla S. 10 min. 34kWh = +/- 200km, 1000km = 50 min. 10 min. is to fill the tank twice with hydrogen and that's for 1000km.
He always starts charged at home which flaws the test somewhat. If he fills the Mirai first he saves another 10 min. I guess there is something to say for both but charging speed seems pretty good on some EV's now. It's only range, weight and inefficiency of the electricity source in most countries is still an issue for EV's (like germany)@@slovackoinfo
468 Wh/km?! I'm impressed how ineficcient this car is.
Fastest car from A to A
This car was the fastest from point A to point A. 😅 Not a good test nor a fair comparison to fossil or EV who can go anywhere.
11:14 I hear Godzilla screaming! Oh no, she was pressed into the tank!
Toyota’s downfall in the EV segment is insane.
How can it be a downfall if they've never risen in the EV segment in the first place?
They're not trying, they want to keep making combustion engines and that's fine. It's like forcing a baker to start selling pizzas. Let the consumers decide their fate.
@@Cornelius87 all Japanese auto makers will either become a shadow of what they are right now or will simply go bankrupt by 2035 if not earlier. Nissan is already on the path to bankrupcy... Just look at its declining sales
@@dr.andersonsghost4315 They were in on the game quite early with the Prius, they just never outgrew hybrids
it reminds me when we used CNG for transportation before switching to EV, always on the side of the planet 😊. H2 seems also a good alternative to petrol but i think it's right niche would be heavy transportation, lorries and construction site vehicles and even airplanes (maybe??). compared to BEV in everyday usecase can't compete in simplicity and practicality of use. This Mirai compared to long range BEVs it's not so much quicker on 1000km trips, let alone on shorter but more often trips.
If more people get FCEV, then there will be an issue with recompression stau.
Test 3 or 4 cars, how long to refuel number 4, if they arrive at the same time.
Test refuel time,,then it is cold in winter.
It’s faster and easier to compress hydrogen in cold weather, it still needs a lot of infrastructure.
@@sandyfordd1843 yes, I was thinking more about the handle getting cold. How could would it get if the Ambien temperature is -10 °C or colder? Could that cause an issue?
@@sandyfordd1843 considering that the temperature was bellow 0 °C at the tests now,
Could it end up dangerously cold to touch in the winter?
Could the freezing could cause mechanic issues with the connection?
Hydrogen has a chicken and egg problem. But in this case: the chicken is equally ridiculously expensive as the egg. It will never work without massive subsidies. The potential savings through scale are limited due to the complexity of both, the cars and refueling stations.
You are my second favorite Thai driver after Alex Albon. XD
If you still have Toyota stocks in your portfolio, you should dump them all. In fact, you should have done that years ago.
Interior looks like it’s straight from the 90s. How long will it take for EVs to match this in charging speed? Probably faster than there is a decent refilling network around europe and the price of hydrogen comes down because it is abundant from renewable overproduction. Further, H2 is a potent greenhouse gas, even though it won’t stay in the earths atmosphere for long. However, it is so hard to contain that there are leaks everywhere. H2 in cars does not solve the (short term) heating problem. It „only“ solves local pollution and fast energy delivery. AND the fossil fuel industry can maintain it’s devastating course.
I mean the Mirai should beat the others if you go the speed limit and you don't have to do any charging :D The problem with H2 cars isn't their own efficiency or how fast you can fill them up, but rather how expensive it is and that you just can't get loads of H2 for loads of cars using green energy for a reasonable cost.
So 66.000 euros for this ? Is this a joke ? Seriously Toyota !
Now do the same in January and/or (mentally) with something requiring huge drag like large van (read: camper). Will be interesting to see how these will eventually play out.
If the high speed test is anything to go by, the fuel cell seems to get less efficient at higher power outputs - 1.0 kg per 100km at 90km/h vs 1.4 kg at 120 km/h - is it more than just higher drag from airspeed? the Mirai doesn't seem that boxy, but maybe that grille is an issue? I don't know if the Hyundai SUV Nexo has a tow hitch - it would be an interesting test for sure. I miss Bjorns Nimber towing tasks with an early Model X - really pushing what that first gen car could do, warts and all.
(A quick google shows Fuel Cell performance is a complex topic, but heat under load seems to play a role)
15 min faster than Model S. RIP Toyota.
Awesome Bjorn. You da MAN!
It's 15 min faster providing you dont have to reroute to fuel- or you are right behind someone else fueling.
Or there is fuel at all. Good luck in Ohio, where I live. Not a single H2 station, and you can't put one in your garage. We call them lawn ornaments. I don't think anybody opened a hydrogen fueljng station with their own money(not subsidy) thinking they would make money. And hydrogen is expensive. There may not be as many EV chargers as I would like, but grid is everywhere, and a level 2 charger can be added for a grand, like at an air B&B, and then you are all set. Sleep while it charges.
@Frank RenewablesCheap You've been commenting that same comment under every video, what's the matter ?
Cool tech! Of course, it's not practical at this point for many people, but I can see this being a solid alternative. In my dreamworld, all techs coexist, so I'm glad somebody is pushing hydrogen.
I've got the popcorn ready=) If it had about a 20-30kWh battery and a plug so you could charge the battery at home it could be remotely interesting IF hydrogen infrastructure was built out... I suppose this and NIO battery swap is more designed for people who can't charge at home. Looking forward to see how (not so) much faster it will be given how invested the world's largest auto maker is in this technology...
10:20 + 15:35 sound is so... natural :)))
I would like to see a Mirai coming from Norway to Portugal, oh wait, no refilling spots! 😁
We shouldn't forget about it, that battery cells are advancing too, so where the one system is limited by the sheer physics behind it (maybe prices will come down, when industry demands raise Hydrogen production) the other system is getting better (Si-rich LiIon cells, solid-state, etc.) in charging, weight and performance.
But @Björn Nyland, just for once, I'd love to see the comparison with a proper hybrid car, like the Corolla, Yaris, Clio or comparable (not high, nor long, nor heavy), where it has the best mix of a combustion and electric system in a sensible car.
The biggest problem with FCEV is that it's basically a worst alternative to regular ICE vehicle in all aspect except emission. But even with green hydrogen, FCEV emission is still far worse than BEV.
It's not a good solution to the emission problem, and it's a worse solution for mass adaptation. why even bother.
>But even with green hydrogen, FCEV emission is still far worse than BEV.
How?
@@MrPaukann Thermal efficiency of hydrogen fuel cell and energy cost of fuel distribution. Fuel cell is basically battery with more steps. As a rule of thumb, iirc, FCEV is 2~3 times more energy inefficient than BEV from energy source to wheel.
Of course BEV also has extra emission from producing battery, but in a future where hydrogen production is green, battery production will be on green energy as well.
@@maxiumlin6705, yes, but you said green hydrogen. Green hydrogen is zero emission. 0*3 is still 0.
@MrPaukann ahh... my bad.
Truely zero emission "green hydrogen" largely doesn't make sense economically (on site solar electrolysis production or sth). if we're in a future where FCEVs are prevailant, they're going to be run on the same grid as BEVs. So the emission is always there.
but yeah, shouldn't have said "green hydrogen", I meant "hydrogen produced on largely cleaned grid" contrasting to grey hydrogen currently used which is far FAR worse..
@@maxiumlin6705, sure. I didn't say it makes sense.
Interestingly, using grey hydrogen is better than using a BEV in Poland, for example. 0.736gCO2/kwh * 22kWh/100km = 16.2 kgCO2/100km for a Tesla Model S (which is one of the more efficient EVs). Meanwhile, emissions to produce a kg of grey hydrogen are 11 kgCO2/kgH2. So, 15.2kgCO2/100km for the Mirai.
Great test Bjørn - a question regarding the price comparison - what is the cost for the Battery Swaps?
It’s subscription based.
@@taqitahmid50 But you still pay per swap and per kWh missing from battery
imagine how far this car could run as EV if Toyota stuffed that huge drivetrain with batteries
Based on the bZ4X I wouldn't bet on that large of a battery 😅 (bZ4X has a 60kWh pack and it is a massive SUV.)
The Mirai has a 1.24kWh Li-ion battery which is as huge as the old Leaf24's charger in the trunk! Or is larger than 4kWh of i-MiEV battery!
Toyota just isn't too space efficient with their batteries.
@bjornnyland if the norway route that was did in the Mirai is 5 minutes slower compared to the sweden route, I will count it as 8:35 because the route that was done in reference test is faster. That would mean the Mirai would also get 8:35 on the sweden route.
But Sweden route is not possible due to lack of hydrogen stations. So this route is in fact the most realistic one.
@Bjørn Nyland at 10:21 through 10:24 why do you say ah sheeeet when peeing in the bush behind the camera?
This also happened at 15:34
Hydrogen might be an idea if you have a house, 25 sqm PV, Heatpump and a PICEA producing in a small unit slowly until June/July in Germany and Switzerland enough Hydrogen to heat the house in winter. It’s no high pressure system and the converters/fuel cell work under optimum conditions. To store Hydrogen you just need standard bottles up to 150 bar but not 350 to 700! Anyhow due to regulation you must store them out of the house. It’s the perfect mix of the all standard available parts and no one reinvented the wheel. But for cars and even trucks it is too complicated and from ‚well to wheel‘ far too expensive. It only helps existing oil companies to survive with their infrastructures.
Go look at "The Hydrogen House Project" - it's exactly this - it needs a LOT of solar and space taken up with low(er) pressure bottles like you say, but this guy spent millions making it work - it's impressive, but also gave me the sense it was impractical unless you have a small farm or a huge house with grounds - I'm not sure seasonal storage is best placed in the home (at least a normal sized one) and we have grids for a reason. I do believe grid scale weekly storage would work, but whether hydrogen is the right material for that, when pumped hydro, compressed air, molten salt etc. etc. etc. are all contenders too is for someone smarter than me to figure out, renewables do produce in the winter, with periods of still cloudy days (a dunkelflaute) only lasting a week at most, we don't really need to hold renewable energy for months on end if we have a good mix of generation across all seasons.
I was amazed how cheap it was per 100 km until I realized it costs 20 nuks per 100 grams 😂
Well this shit is expensive now
There is only 1 or 2 hydrogen pumps in Australia so here at least you would be insane to buy one because even though our charging infrastructure here is still bad I can at least charge my Tesla at home
In the UK If you don't own a driveway then ICE is so much cheaper, especially if you have a Costco card. Diesel is currently £1.34 /L and petrol is £1.36 / L. Whereas public charging is around £0.79/kWh.
My Manual 2012 BMW X1 which I paid £3,500 for does 57mpg. To do 50,000 miles would cost £5,287.99. Range is 798 miles. £0.11/mile
A new similar sized petrol car such as the VW Taigo (£23,540 MSRP) does 47.9mpg and so 50,000 miles would cost £6,453.75, Range is 421 miles. £0.13/mile
An MG 4 EV Trophy costs £32,495, 270 miles WLTP. To do 50,000 miles if you do not have a driveway and rely on public charging would cost £9,362.96. £0.19/mile.
While there's an argument for the lower maintenance costs of an EV, the higher initial price you pay for the car + the £4,075 you spend extra on electricity simply erodes any maintenance savings. Not to mention that most people are leasing these days and so maintenance costs really don't matter.
Hydrogen is even more expensive than any of those options.. not sure who is stupid enough to buy into it, I can only see it being viable for lorries and maybe public transport.
No public AC charging available yet?
You don't need driveway, just some, let's say, subscriptions for chargers you think you will use the most + some imagination how to provide power to your car from house/flat to charge at night. Needs more investigation than simple driveway/no driveway :)
@@Simon-dm8zv Not easily no. There's some 7kw ones that are 63p /kwh and have a max stay of 3 hours. As you can imagine.. not very feasible
@@iambenmitchell I am sure it will improve
Please do Hyundai Nexo 1000km challenge too
Was the hydrogen used in this video green or blue? Of even grey?
Awesome video once again.
The nearest hydrogen station to me is 600 km from my house, one way, and in a different country. So the Miraj would not exactly be a practical choice for my next car.
And power sockets are basically anywhere. And if not, then solar panels are working on the whole globe
Technology of yesteryear. Would be more take up if Toyota has charging station just like supercharger
Funny enough, I've seen a Toyota Mirai yesterday where I live in Braunschweig, Germany. No idea where it is getting its fuel...
There is one H2 station in Braunschweig (and two in Hannover).
@@ora10053 cool, didn't know that!
Are you doing a microphone testing too ? Peeing sound ..😂
Now, while I wouldn't myself consider a hydrogen car just yet, I am intrigued how the Hyundai Nexo compares to the Mirai. It seems the more practical hydrogen option, at the moment, or of course the Mercedes GLC F-Cell FCV...
H2 is just ineffizient, 30% loss by electroanalysis and Wh/km dopple consumption and nobody knows about loss in the whole fueling and storing process.
In developed countries, BEV is the right choice
Compressing hydrogen to 880 bar is 3kWh/kg. BEV is the right choice!
At 20:13 there's a definite concentration of hydrogen refueling stations in certain countries isn't there?
But does it correspond to the countries that used to use Russian gas supplied via the Nordstream pipeline? It could actually also be that the prohibitive price of the hydrogen might be related to the cutting off of the pipeline.
I actually have a Mirai somewhere in the neighbourhood even though there is only one single H2 gas station in a 100km radius. Very weired.
100km to refuel. Then back is almost half the tank. How someone can buy a car like that?
@@dos585 Well, that "single one" in this 100km radius is only 5km away. But if it's out of order - good luck :-)
I've got two stations within 10km radious I think. Even knowing that it still didn't make me even consider one last time I changed car as I can charge electricity at home.
The Wh/km are complete wrong. You can not calculate the thermal energy for H2 alone. There is the efficiency is the electrolysis, cooling down to liquify H2, compressing H2 to 700 bar.
55 kWh per g is more realistic. so 14 g are 770 Wh/km. When You drive a 12 m bus slowly, You can achieve also 770 Wh/km.
If you do it like that, then you should also consider quite a bunch of things with the petrol car.
The ships moving the oil, the pump pumping the oil, the refinery refining the oil, the trucks moving the oil to the petrol station, the electricity the petrol station needs, the building of all those things.
Exactly right. At 1.4kg per 100km at 110km/h, and 55kWh to make and retail 1 kg of hydrogen, it's 77kWh per 100km or 770 Wh/km.
BYD do indeed make more efficient electric busses than this.
@@AAb-xy6et that would be great - energy spent on oil discovery and energy and emissions on refining too - the use of cobalt in refineries, the coal burnt to supply electricity, the whole thing. It's called well to wheels analysis, it is available, and it ain't pretty.
For hydrogen, you have to count the input electricity, as it could so easily be used to power an EV instead, whereas gasoline manufacture often 'eat's it own' and burns oil or gas to supply heat to refining processes, so it's not so easy to point to that and say 'that could have gone into an EV instead' - but for green hydrogen, from renewable electricity, into an electrolyzer, yeah, you must count the input electricity to make a kg of hydrogen and chill / compress / retail it as part of the car's efficiency, because you could just charge an EV with it an go 3.75 times further. I do include EV charging and transmission losses in my calculations too - the Tesla display does not - but they are single digit losses, not like hydrogen manufacture and return from a fuel cell.
Tesla has Superchargers in Europe, US, Australia, etc. Toyota should have done the same for hydrogen if they believed in their product.
$2.5 million for a station you have to truck hydrogen to twice a day, or $3.5 million for an onsite electrolyzer you have to deliver 15MWh to daily along with 2,000 litres of pure water (for 200kg of hydrogen) - one station can serve around 50 cars a day.
The $10 trillion Toyota would have needed to spend to match the functionality of Tesla's network would have bankrupted them. Their goal was to con governments into thinking hydrogen filling was 'essential infrastructure for climate resilience' and have taxpayers foot the bill.
Hydrogen does not make sense. The 5 minute fill is cool. The rest of it is bat shot insane.
The range of hydrogen cars are currently matched by the most recent BEV's (model s, EQS), and now only a mere 15 min faster.
A few more years and hydrogen cars will have almost no advantage.
i think this car would be better if had larger battery. but that would defeat the purpose of having hydrogen system. on paper hydrogen is very nice but the price is just too high also big question about hydrogen production method because it can have high co2 emissions
Plug in hybrid?
That works out to about 40 US cents per mile......ridiculous!
It's much worse in California itself due to the cost of green hydrogen (it's doubled in a couple of years)
1.4kg per 100km is 44.38 miles per kg, at US$26.75 per kg results in 60.3 cents per mile.
For an EV at 20kWh per 100km, 3.1 miles per kWh, at $0.30 per kWh (OC, CA, US) is 9.7 cents per mile.
6 times (620%) more expensive.
And you have to drive to a gas station, and try and time it so you don't get in lineup, and you have to do this every time you need fuel, no option to plug into a socket somewhere you were already at, like work, home, hotel, shopping, gym etc. etc.
The hydrogen is not clean!
We've got to stop repeating Toyota's disinformation talking points, completely unqualified like this - at 1.4kg per 100km, and 54kWh of electricity per kg to make, thats a staggering 75.6kWh per 100km compared to 20kWh per 100km in an EV going at the same speed - that additional 55.6kWh (278% more) of renewable electricity comes from a limited green supply, as a result, 55.6kW per 100km gets taken away and has to be made up for using .... fossil fuels ... and that's assuming the hydrogen is even from electrolysis, you need 375% more renewable build out to make up for the terrible efficiency - 3 to 4 times as many wind turbines or solar panels - it's such a backward step, we need to be honest about this, the needless inefficiency is a huge part of the problem.
But really, most hydrogen is still made from fossil fuels, if we only use green hydrogen for new inefficient unnecessary transportation then we divert much needed green hydrogen from the existing 120 millions tons of fossil hydrogen we are using in industry - have it go there first, use EVs and then finally, when the grid is fully green, and 50% curtailed, then sure - waste the extra energy on an ever so slightly faster fill - by then batteries and charging will be close to parity.
No energy is. Get over it
@@samusaran7317 that is a good point, given that, should we be using 3 to 4 times more (dirty) energy than we need to, to solve a problem that is largely irrelevant if it only saves 15 minutes on a 9 hour drive that we only do 3 or 4 times a year? (or twice a week if you are Bjorn)
@@brushlessmotoring Good things take time to iron out sadly...
@@samusaran7317 what does that even mean? Do you think the energy losses of hydrogen are somehow solvable? It’s the second law of thermodynamics - it’s just physics - nothing is charging there - in the electrolyzer, turning water into hydrogen and oxygen needs energy - a lot of it - and creates waste heat - in the fuel cell, combing hydrogen with cleaned oxygen from the air takes energy - a lot of it - and produces waste heat - those loses compound on each other and are not going away, the round trip efficiency is under 30%, there is no ‘ironing out’ of those losses, at best the costs can be reduced, but in doing so EVs get even cheaper at the same time.
@@brushlessmotoring Sorry I wasn't specific as Im rather tired. Improving transportation overall is what I meant earlier....
I don't need an FCEV for the one trip a year that's longer than 450 km. I prefer to save the trip to the (hydrogen) filling station in everyday life and have more free time and money.
17:00 so green means stop and red means go? 🤪
The thought of having 10,000psi of an extremely explosive gas under your ass just to refuel slightly faster (for now) seems ridiculous.
Some Facts about hydrogen cars are not mentioned. First the car is really expensive, it has less space than a Tesla Model 3 inside and in the boot but is much larger outside. The cars have extremly high maintenance coasts, becouse they have to go every 10.000 or 15.000 km to service to to dirt and stuff in the fuel cell. This is very often and expensive. Than you have the problem in generating enough hydrogen, which take ~3 time more energy than use this directly for charging a EV. So you have to somehow produce this large amount of energy. Hydrogen is also very difficult to store in the car an in tanks. The tank station cant pump more than 50 cars per day! This is bc of thigh complexity of this pumpstation, high presure and freezing stuff. So For me I dont see any futre for hydrogen cars.
This Miraj doesn’t look very efficient. I had the opportunity to drive de bmw ix5 and I got almost 600km out of it.
Unless there's cheap way to add hydrogen at home, it still going to be low selling car
1:35 😂
Aptera will be faster than this ;) I forecast 8h20min time for Aptera on empty roads.
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hynion gøteborg should be open, opened december last year, theres another thats getting build there to.
Poor range will kill these off before they get going. As this is one of the biggest moans of the ICE crowd against EV's
Interesting to see and I think hydrogen will become bigger in future when hydrogen becomes cheaper (produced with more nuclear energy), more widely available and when they get rid of small problems with the filling up itself. Btw, are you going to test the Hyundai Nexo as well? I believe that is actually a better designed car than the Mirai.
It can never be cheaper than a BEV, as it uses the same fuel source in the creation of the green hydrogen: electricity - but hydrogen uses 375% more of it (at 110km/h). Right now, it's 6 to 10 times more expensive than an EV, in time it might only be 4 times more expensive. Whatever cost reductions you think future nuclear will bring will apply to EVs too. My understanding is wind is the future of cheap energy, not nuclear, and cheap wind could help hydrogen prices, but again, will help EVs 3 to 4 times more at the same time.
If all problems of production are solved with hydrogen, the physical still exists. You need high pressure to keep it in liquid state and special tank material to store and transport. Hydrogen has the smallest atom size and it will diffuse through ordinary steel with the time. Also it's highly flammable and can be ignite by a small electric arc. Filling stations always need special security applications. A EV charge pile can be set up in every street like a lantern pole.
19:41 Max speed in Norway is 110 km/h, yet he has a 115,4 km/h average. Love it!
As someone who lives on the west side of the country where the max speed limit is 100.. Let me tell you people on the east coast drive SIGNIFICNATLY faster lmao, i had my Mach-E over the mountains this summer, and i felt like a left lane hugger when i was only driving in 125 despite the speed limit of 110
@@raymondberg7385 Telling on ourselves eh?
@@logitech4873 Nope, 110. Sweden has 120, Denmark 130 but max speed limit in Norway is 110
@@samusaran7317 Lol
My tests are realistic according to how fast people drive. However, since this is a Toyota...
The laggy infotainment reminds me of my 2020 BMW. Same shit…
Sure, this car is completely let down by the utter lack of infrastructure for refilling with hydrogen. Which also used to be the case with EVs not all too many years ago. But the price of filling up... On long trips, my Golf IV would do 6,5 litres/100 km. Which meant that if I timed my refuelling to when prices were "cheap", I would get about 840 km of range for about 1100 NOK. This hydrogen car makes no economical sense.
But the difference for early EV adopters is that there are already regular sockets everywhere - sure, it took a long time to charge, needed sketchy extension cables and adaptors, or finding a friendly welder shop, but it was possible, RV hookups at camp grounds make decent level 2 charging for instance.
Hydrogen is starting from scratch, and cannot even be done as a home unit due to the insane compression required for the 700 bar / 10,000 psi tank, the huge energy requirements for it all due to the inefficiencies. This will always keep hydrogen expensive.
I always recommend renting an EV for a long trip, it will be a good learning experience for anyone who still has doubts.
How is that UI lag even possible.
Japan and their love of Hydrogen...very strange.
What did this cost? 2000 nok to drive 740 km. That is about 3 times as expensive as my Volvo V50 and 15 times as expensive as my little EV.
20:32
@@bjornnyland I must admit that I didn't watch the video quite to the end. I wasn't far off your calculation. But there is no way the Hydrogen stations will spread around Europe. And more than 90% of EVs will be charged at home. Hydrogen is such a dødfødt concept.
So much for Toyota quality on the fuel door. How can Toyota mess up something so basic?
Shiiiiiit, thats expensive 😞 It will never be a succes in Denmark. Love my new Model 3.
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please add XX kg/100km info aside from wh/km info. Many people who worship hydrogen check those Excel files and think that it has 1kg/100km @ 120 kph consumption ...
My Lexus CT200h fuel consumption is 4.2 L/100km. Toyota Hybrid for the win.
Toyota has had years to help the hydrogen refueling infrastructure to develop. They haven’t. They haven’t had the incentive. And now it’s already too late, when Tesla has such a lead in building superchargers.
Hydrogen makes a lot of sense for long-haul transportation that takes mostly place along the major highways, but for personal vehicles the value proposition has nothing going for it against an EV.
Of all the stuff and stupidity about hydrogen... I'm most surprised about the fact that they use hecto grams... Why not just KGs... 😅
Canada is the same - per 100g - my theory is to get the price looking more like gasoline per litre, and appearing cheaper, even though it is much more expensive per mile / km.
*kg
Did you just pee on the spot lol?!
I knew it, that Toyota will win this challenge! With superior tech, nobody can catch up, maybe Toyota. Toyota will also surpass human‘s existence, even not really to hope so. But forever number 1, or less, and world‘s leader in some theoretical forcasts for sure! They did it! Amen .. with slow clap.
The next 15 Years the Mirai will be as bad as a fossil car, i mean its a fossil car basically, if you know what i mean.
LOL, you just pee some water at the charging, but the cheapest hydrogen comes from natural gas. So this is effectively still like driving a fossil.
No, solar and wind are cheaper actually.
Also there do exist cars driving on LPG.
Hydrogen from gas costs less than one euro. Wind power is around €4 and solar at around €6. These are just the production costs. And do not yet include margins or profits for everyone involved companys
@@dos585 How can solar be more expensive then wind while electricity from solar is cheaper then from wind? Also, why wouldn't you let your car drive on gas instead? That should be much cheaper and much more efficient then right?
very expensive is hydrogen. Not win in future is dead end.
what, almost 1000 kr for ca 400 km range "svindyrt"
So you men that EV batteries are "clean"? How is hydrogen produced?
Fossil fuel . Natural gas. This is the only source at the moment and the most cheapest. Renewable are more than 4 time more expensive
@@dos585 how are fool cells and hydrogen tanks produced? + Adjust that for the maintenance and replacements of the hydrogen system due to leakage...
Mirai is the prototypeversion. Would it not be more fair to compare it to first generation Tesla Roadster?
Lol, Mirai is *not* prototype. This is even the second gen Mirai. Please educate yourself:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Mirai
@@bjornnyland
I'm just saying the comparison is not very fair. Something you obviously know yourself.
Hydrogen tech is a joke. On top of the costs of fueling the car and wasting time every couple days at the hydrogen station, one has to add maintenance costs. Donut Media made a video saying that it cotsts $50k to build a charging station vs $2mln for a hydrogen station. With all the extra costs trucks, and buses won't make any sense.
The same applies to hydrogen storage - crazy maintenance costs + more solar that has to be built (due to energy loss).
Now think about planes. If you ask GPT about the efficiency of a very popular airbus a330 it will tell you something like 10k liters for 1h of flight or 14k kwh / 1h. Mirai has a fool cell the same size as 6l v12 engine that is capable of powering an amazing ... 186hp engine xd That fool cell would have to be the size of half of that plane to power its engines ... Add the extra mass of the fool cell, and hydrogen tanks, and water tanks, because at such high attitude, the temperature is extremely low (all those hundreds if not thousands of liters of water after just 1h of flight would freeze and destroy someone's home upon impact xd) So half of the plane will be a fool cell and other half a water tank ... great. Oh, and I forgot about the maintenance of fool cell and hydrogen costs after multiple flights... Add to that hydrogen tank at the airport and we will end up getting beirut 2.0 xd
Nein nein nein nein!
oh sheeeet😂