For anyone interested in the phase vs polarity subject I suggest taking a look at the DCC Wiki website link below. About halfway down the page is the polarity discussion. dccwiki.com/DCC_Power
Does the instructions that come with the double cross over show how to connect the four machines so they will be sycronized when one is thrown the corresponding machine will also be thrown to correspond the flow or do you need to throw both machines independently?
The new Walthers turnouts are the best ones out there. I love mine and will be replacing most of the switches on my layout with them, A couple things Larry didn't mention are that the point rails are a single piece all the way to the frog; no hinges or joints to get misaligned. Also since the little eyelet for attaching the wire to power the frog is so easy to access it makes it a piece of cake to power the frog even after you have mounted the switch on your board. I've also read that the Walthers frogs are a bit larger than that of Peco's new switches, making them less susceptible to shorts when using older equipment with wider wheels. I have no personal experience of this, however. Anyway, I highly recommend the switches, well worth the slightly higher cost. They seem to be sold out of the first batch, so I'm not-so-patiently waiting for more to come in.
This was a good review. I am impressed with your under the table switch machine. It kind of reminds of the Stereo Sound speakers crossover network. While those tracks look nice I wish WALTHERS had done a Code 100 version. Meanwhile i will just custom build my own # 6 from ATLAS. That's quite a fortune to purchase this track. While i work at a train store there is the older model you described on this video. It would be nice to see how this track works in action with some trains running. Glad you got a lower price for it. Glad to have watched this..
Larry: I have a double-main layout that is already down. They are 2.5" on-center apart. Is there way to modify the Walters double crossover to fit that width? or are the other double crossovers that can be modified?
No, it would be easier to relay your tracks than try to do that. As I showed in a recent video a couple of weeks ago I always lay turnouts first then install the connecting tracks just to prevent that problem. And before you asked hand building a double crossover in place would be an even bigger headache.
Is there anywhere to find a diagram of the linkage? I am probably going to set up two tortoises, and am having trouble with imagineering the linkage. I think a good diagram of yours would greatly help. Thanks for the video!
There was an article in MR a few year go by Pele Soeborg showing his linkage. Basically all you need is some pushrods and bell cranks available at local hobby shops that sell RC models, imagination, and ingenuity. Also Circuitron makes a kit that allows one Tortoise to control 2 devices-check their website.
I hope Walthers improves on their quality control. In September I purchased 4 no. 5 right hand turnouts and on all of them the frog was not connected to the eyelet bar. The wing rails were but not the frog. One left hand no. 5 turnout worked as designed. I had grind out the plastic beneath the frog and solder it to that eyelet connecting strip.
Thanks for pointing that out. I’ll put a multimeter on the frog and make sure all contacts are solid. Guess I need to order a turnout to see if that is a widespread issue. I used several of their older DCC Friendly #5 turnouts for my Charlottesville yard without any problems but you never can tell with a new manufacturer involved. Ok, I gave it a check and all the contacts are hot, so no issues there.
Larry great video, I ordered the new crossover last week, I am installing my crossover on a removable bridge, wiring is my big challenge. Not sure if i will install switch machines but if I do ,will use the Walthers version for sure
Late to the party here, what's new, LOL, but one question that was not raised Larry is how to wire the Frogs if you are using manual switches like Caboose Industries throws? Just use a Frog Juicer? How? Maybe this question has already been discussed in previous videos by you or by some other persons model RR video you could recommend? Great video by the way! 😉
@@TheDCCGuy I watched Episode 313 for the answer, but you only said in Tip #5 - Power Your Frog. Did I watch the wrong Episode for your instructions on how to power a frog using manual turnout throws? Thank you for your great videos!
Hi Larry, thanks for this video. My layout is a single-track Dog-bone, with a long Passing-Siding. I am using DC. The DCO (which I imported into the UK) is in the middle of the P-S and I would like the Point Blades to isolate, so that I can hold up to 2 trains (1 on Main, 1 in Siding) with the 3rd - zig-zagging between them. Out of the box - all Rails are Live. Walthers Instructions mention "Cut four gaps as shown for alternate Block Control wiring (four Blocks)". Stupid question from me I know, but before I take a Razor-saw to my DCO, are Walthers referring to cutting physical gaps in the four Rails at the positions they show on the Instructions? My other alternative (I am trying to avoid) is to completely Isolate the DCO with Insulated R/J's and wire in more Switches on my Control Panel. Thanks for any advice.
Great video Larry! I'm considering this double crossover for my layout. Wouldn't I need 2 dual frog juicers to power all the frogs? I'm a greenhorn in the HO scale train hobby and I'm a little confused. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks again for all the very informative, excellent videos. Tug
No, once the device is set for crossover there are 2 frogs that need powering but they will need the same polarity so you just use one frog juicer circuit for the 2 on that route. The other 2 frogs in the opposite route can then be handled by the other circuit on the board. On my layout I have one operated by a single Tortoise that uses a special made mechanism to operate all 4 sets of points at the same time. I then use a dual frog juicer to handle the frogs. If you like playing with bell cranks and pushrods as used in RC airplanes you can cobble up your own mechanism.
For people newer to the hobby, it should be mentioned that a pair of single crossovers can often provide equivalent FUNCTION to a double crossover - provide you have the linear space on your layout! I say this while recognizing that, Yes, I can imagine many situations where, even if you have the space, the double crossover will the be right choice for you.
I suppose that there has to be a reason to lay a double crossover instead of a pair of single crossovers because the latter would spare a diamond crossing. Crossings of all types are expensive and special to maintain in reality so railway network operators avoid them whenever possible. In Germany a crossing would impose a speed limit of 59 mph (80 km/h) in the best case, most of them are more limited e.g. to 37 mph (60 km/h).
Hi Larry, I purchased this crossover for the center of my double dogbone layout after watching this video. I am trying to use a HFJ to control the polarity using the diagram shown on the HFJ instruction but it is not detailed at all. I used the Shinohara wiring option of the two provided but still produce a short on the crossings but have no problem on the parallel tracks. Any chance you could show the precise placement of the 4 feeders on the crossover to alleviate the short? Thanks!
I have no idea what an HFJ is. However somewhere in the Walthers instruction sheet it mentions cutting gaps to isolate sections in case where the unit is placed across two blocks and that is what you need to look at.
@@TheDCCGuy HFJ=Hex Frog Juicer from Tam Valley. Just to make sure, I gap all 4 parallel tracks at the exact center of the crossover? Thank you for your help!
I ordered 3 of these to replace existing older versions however I have found these are not as long as the older versions, I'll have to add rail in order to make these fit. Not sure why they didn't make them the same length? My track and roadbed is fixed in place using caulk so changing track is not easy. I did not caulk any turnouts for just this reason. As I previously wired not only my frogs but also the point rails I had also planned to begin using and replacing all turnouts with the new style to eliminate that hassle but will need to see if those are a drop in or not now. I love the solid point rails and the frog terminal.
I’ll have to compare the new and old ones to see what the compressed. With respect to using caulk or adhesive I use Liquid Nails for Projects and although it holds well I find I can usually left sections of track by sliding a putty knife under it. It leaves only a thin layer of adhesive which can be scrubbed off allowing the track or turnout to be reused. Of course this may depend on which caulk you used.
@@TheDCCGuy I used latex based, I have done removals, just a bit of work. I picked up an Oscillating tool and use a fine blade in it, works rather well. The track itself is unusable. I have pictures of the difference in length, if you place the new on top of the old there are subtle differences it appears so I maybe able to shift it one way or another and extend only 1 end. Need that proverbial rail stretcher...
There might be a difference in length because of the frogs. Could the old crossovers have been a larger frog number or built to a larger number? The ones shown here are No 6. No railroad I know of would use less than No 10 frogs for mainline or terminal locations. For compression and modeling, No 6 would be the smallest recommended for operation. It might be kind of hard to get adequate measurements, but you could measure the old and new frogs to see if they are the same: this will work for any straight frog (not curved), divide a frog down the middle from the point to the heel, use a suitable dimension such as mm or 1/16 or 1/8 inch, measure across the frog perpendicular to the split line so there is a full dimension and make a mark, find on the frog where the next full dimension is and make a mark, measure between these marks in the same base dimension, that should be the frog number. That is how I determined frog numbers in the field if there was not an identification plate on the frog; I would use inches. Unless a frog is very worn, it is very accurate. For your model track just lay one crossover over the other one.
Excellent video and very clear explanation, thank you for sharing. I have 3 of the Shinohara crossovers installed and I have used a single Tutoise for each one. I use a different control mechanism for each. Probably the simplest one is the one using one RTM (Remote Tortoise Turnout) and 3 extra actuators (880-6101) saved $20. Using linkages made from R/C airplane control rods and an adapter to connect to linkages to the single Tortoise , saved $30.Once you consider the labor involved, it seems to me that one is better off just using 4 switch machines.
Unfortunately for OO scale modellers here in the UK, Im not aware of any manufacturer makes these in code 75 or 100. There are 1 or 2 people who make them to order but they are expensive and the quality is variable to say the least.
There isn’t a big difference between code 83 and code 75 or even code 100. I have mixed a few code 100 turnouts in with code 83 track without any problems. For example for the gantlet track I showed in my signals video I used old Shinohara code 100 turnouts for the leads into it. Once painted and ballasted you can’t tell the difference.
It looks like Walthers is delivering on quality track with these new releases! I have a lot of the older Shinohara code 83 track and it takes quite a bit of work to get it DCC friendly. I like using two Tortoise switch machines with two 'Remote Tortoise Mount' (800-6100) and two 'Extra Cable & Actuator' (800-6101) to control that double crossover. The frogs can be wired directly to the Tortoises and you have an 'off the shelf' version of that fancy custom one of a kind thing you showed us. Just offering that up as an option for anyone who doesn't want to go with four switch machines.
I had considered doing that as well as using cables, bell pulls, etc to rig up a Rube Goldberg but then I aded up the cost and it is just as expensive as using 4 Tortoises and nowhere near as troublesome.
@@TheDCCGuy You are right about total cost, but I have found that once the cables are properly adjusted and the screws tightened - they are trouble free! It also takes up a lot less space under the layout with only 2 switch machines. In my case, I already had a bunch of Tortoises that I bought years ago, and wanted to use them 'sparingly'. I also like the remote Tortoise mounts that allow me to put the switch machine 'nearby' which keeps my wiring and benchwork neater depending on where the points are topside. It also allows for a thicker layout board - I have 1&1/2" foam with 1/2" homasote on top, then cork roadbed - the Tortoise connection rotates rather than moving side to side for the points. I can understand that some may not want the short wire 'lever' on the track (or next to the track) that throws the points, but I'm okay with it.
BOY did you hit the nail on the head with you user name lol Started yrs ago buying track & some switches I have a few general horrors including the cross over Unfortunately loads of Atlas And 500' plus of brass Flex Been a couple years now I'm trying to convert this building Is with the goal of a fairly good side layout Unfortunately I'm I'm not getting any younger nor nor could I afford to do everything in Nickel My helper cruise is showing up today for another round I can finally see light at the end of the tunnel Party like a teenager when I get on the bench work L o l
Larry, is the dual frog juicer handling all 4 frogs? How is it wired? I am using 4 tortoise switch machines on mine.Would I be better off letting the Tortoise unit handle the frog power as opposed to the frog juicer? Any real advantage of one over the other? Thanks for the great videos! Tom
Yes, it works because the frogs are aligned in pairs so each half of the frog juicer can handle two each. If I were using multiple Tortoises I would have used the SPDTs but with inly one Tortoise I had to come up with a different option.
2” centers, pretty much the HO standard these days for parallel straight track. The best way to see what has arrived is to check their website and see if they’re in stock. Since the crossovers are here I suspect they got a shipment of most of the new turnouts and track as well.
Larry, I checked their site and all code 83 is on backorder, even the number 6 double crossover. I never saw them in stock on Walthers, maybe I should try hobby sites, do you care to share where you found it?
Having only revisited the hobby over the last couple years with collecting rolling stock, my only experience with switches are the old DC brass power switches. I am wrapping up refinishing my old basement and preparing to start on a shelf layout. If you have the time, it would be nice to see a video of this turtle switch in operation both above and below deck. I have some hobby level fabricating skills and tools and might try something similar with a single switch. I'd like to install a crossover both at the top and bottom of a helix I have planned. Thanks. Don
Larry, I've installed the crossover on my layout and the system shorts out as the engine crosses from one track to the other. It rolls on through when running straight through as mainlines. Do I need to install a frog juicer and so do you have a diagram on how to wire up this crossover?
Are you sure you have the new version, it should have come with an instruction in the package-mine did. Assuming you have connected to powered rails at each end and they are of the correct phase on the two tracks then you should have no problems. Are your parallel tracks wired the same way-right rails the same phase on each track? Do yours have the small projections on each side for the frog power connections?
@@TheDCCGuy Got to checking the wiring closely today and found that I did have a small section of track leading to a reverse loop that was wired wrong. Fixed it and now it works fine. Yes it is the new version and it works fine without using the little tabs to power the frogs. Thanks for responding. Stay safe and healthy.
My scissors crossover will be in a double track setup. How do I handle the tracks being powered by two separate controllers? There will be times when trains will be in motion in different directions on the crossover.
Are you using DC or DCC? I have a double track mainline on my HO layout with multiple crossovers and have no issues. I wire the parallel rails identically off the same power bus and no problems. I explained this in my video #219 on making crossovers. Th spacing on the tracks is 2” which I think is what Peco uses.
@@TheDCCGuy I'm using analog DC. I have several hundred locos that I've been accumulating since the 1950s, and it would cost much too much to have them all converted to digital.
Hi Larry Many thanks for the extremely informative videos. Could you recommend an outlet that offers the best deals on Walthers track. I live in France and would like to try out their track. Regards Steve A
Obviously Walthers themselves would be an obvious choice but expect to pay full price. Also they import in batches which go out of stock almost immediately which is why I use either MicroEngineering or Peco. I have no idea whether most US hobby shops ship overseas. I order from Blue Ridge Hobbies in South Carolina Nd he gives a healthy discount. You might try some of the UK shops that specialize in US modeling or carry Walthers products but that will require some checking around to fond them, just like I do for Hornby locos, etc.
Very good video with very good sound. Glad you used a lapel mic as your voice is very clear. Unfortunately a lot of videos on this subject of model railroading you have a hard time hearing the host. Great job.
Suggestion: if you could find a way to do a top down view with your camera when you are explaining for example how your crossover worked. It would make seeing what you are explaining much easier,especially if someone is watching on a phone. Thank you for another great video!
Thanks for the informative video. But I do have a question which was not addressed. Is it possible to have all 4 turnouts set to "diverging" at the same time so that the double crossover "always" sends every train to the alternate track? (imagine a layout with inner and outer simple loops where a single train is always crossing from the inner to the outer loop and back again). Some say that a dead short will be created making this impossible.
Yes it is possible and actually on my Walthers double crossover, even though I can change them, all my points are thrown whenever the crossover is activated since I use a single Tortoise for control. With them permanently thrown you can simply hardwire the frogs to the correct bus wires and they would always be the correct phase so no cutouts or shorts there, ever.
@@TheDCCGuy Thank you for your quick response. I should have realized that your amazing mechanism (a real work of art) was doing exactly what I was hoping to accomplish.
You know I love Walther's products. And their support is pretty good. But some of their products are over twice as expensive as the competition. ME bridge track code 83 is $15. Walthers Bridge track is $42 (And that's discount). Atlas customline switch is $20 on sale. Walthers, over $40 for a similar switch. And I love the Walthers flex for the looks, but it is certainly harder to work with, and easier to damage. Plus you need a special tool for spike insertion. I would rather hide a small nailhead in the tie.
My brother in law has an older crossover that he’s just installed. It shorts out every time the train starts to switch! He bought a new Walthers double crossover that is DCC friendly, is it plug and play? If he hooks it up can he just use it? Or does he have to run feeders to the new one to get the loco not to short out?
It is DCC Friendly out of the package. Just install it connected to powered rails and go. The little solder connectors I showed on it are for adding power to the frogs.
Hi Larry, I have a Walther's Double Crossover and I am a new to model railroading and I'm not too good at installing switch machines, but my trains short out when crossing over to the next rail line. I see where you show the posts for wiring but you don't actually show how to wired the unit. I literally need a graphic example on how to wire power to the Crossover correctly. What wire goes where? I am lost and I really need help correcting the issue I have. I am so lost. Please? I need help. Thanks in advance.
The instructions are quite clear, do you still have the copy that came in the package. As long as you have the connecting tracks powered correctly on all four ends of the double crossover it should work fine. However did you install power wires to the frogs? what switch machines are you using?
@@TheDCCGuy My layout is small as I have limited space in my apartment. My layout currently is 4X8 and I do not have switch machines. I'll have to throw the switches manually for now. I didn't install power wires on all (4) ends of the turnout but I"ll try that. Also, the instruction sheet was not inside the box when I received it and I can't find it online. I will follow your suggestions. Thanks so much for your help. ☺
Yes, if you are good with cobbling together bits and pieces to make a linkage system. I considered this and figured it would be quicker, easier, and cheaper to just use 4 switch machines.
If I understand what you are saying and you only intend to use 2 of the 4 sets of points and only power the frogs associated with them then it should not be an issue. But then you could do it easier with a simple crossover using only 2 turnouts.
Great looking, and operating double crossover, Larry. I've been wondering a long time is there any chance of Walthers, or anyone, ever making a #4 double crossover version, like the Shinohara types? This in either code 100 and or code 83, or even code 70? I have four of them that I use, for my rapid Transit lines and they are excellent for saving space. Shinohara, used to make them years ago, in code 100. Amazingly, the last series I was able to purchase, actually work with my DCC, point to point layout. These #4 double crossovers, are great for trolley lines as well. The other words my question is; Do you think anybody will ever manufacture #4 double crossovers in HO scale, regardless of rail code?
@@TheDCCGuy Thanks Larry. Yeah; For modeling, #4 double crossovers, (along with double slip switches), are great for rapid transit terminals, and yards. Great videos... Thanks again Larry.
I was wondering about something, the machine that is controlling the four turnouts on your Piedmont Southern. Do you think the guy who made it for you could make it for others if they ask him?
I have not heard from him in several years, but I doubt he would. He did it mainly as a personal challenge to design and build a machine that would do the whole job with only a single Tortoise. Besides I bet you could buy a fleet of DCC equipped locomotives for what it would cost. If he is still around maybe he will respond to this comment.
I think the article you refer to was by Pele Soeborg in Model Railroader a few years ago. He used plastic rods etc. to make a rig that threw both sets of points in a single crossover. Throwing both routes in a double crossover simultaneously might not be prototypical but we do a lot of things that are not prototypical. Ever see a real steam loco driven with an electric motor? Or real couplers that opened with a magnet or a 30’ tall coupler pick?
I also have a Walthers Mainline NS ES44AC but when I have the ditch light on they flash steady and not back and forth when I blow the horn and I have been trying to fix it so it will flash
Polarity is the correct word even though it's not DC but very close to AC current. It's all single phase not two phases you are either in phase or out of phase.
In AC circuits, because the existence of Reactive Components, the Voltage and Current may not reach the same amplitude peaks at the same time, they generally have a difference in timing. This timing difference is called Phase Shift, f, 0° ≤ f ≤ 90°, and is measured in angular degrees. (From the Communications Museum website.)
Thanks Larry. Do we know who makes it, or is it just anonymous Chinese manufacturer? Just wondering as it's always useful to have additional track manufacturers up your sleeve for when you encounter a situation where you need something a bit different and don't want to handbuild or start adapting the readily available makes (my dad's layout combined Peco, Shinohara, Casadio, handbuilt, Fleischmann, Roco, Tillig and others! ) PS I don't know about the US, but phase means something different in the UK where most houses are on a single phase supply, but larger users will be on a three-phase supply. I get what you mean about polarity, but I'm not convinced it's worth switching to a new term.
I am not exactly sure where you are going with single-phase or 3-phase supply. In the US, almost all houses and apartment units are supplied with 240V single-phase 60 Hetz (cycle) AC which is split at the breaker box into 2 120V supplies for use through the breakers (fuses). Heavy user circuits like a stove, water heater, AC/furnace, and/or clothes drier are single circuits of 240V single-phase to each appliance. The power network from the generator, transmission lines, etc down to the street distribution lines are 3-phase. Heavy (large power) users, shops, plants, etc. are supplied with 3-phase with varying voltages to suit the needs of the business ranging from 240V up. Most large machines, lathes, mills, elevators, large AC systems, etc, use 440-480V 3-phase power. Most of the rest of the world uses 50 Hertz (cycle) 240V AC with a lot being 3-phase into homes. North America is kinda different.
The most common HO scale rail codes are code 70, 83, and 100, corresponding to .07”, .083”, and .1”. Multiplying .07 by 87.1 (the proportion of HO scale) gives us a scale rail height of approximately 6”. According to the chart, 6” is the prototype height of 100 lb. rail, a fairly heavy branchline or light mainline rail. Code 83 comes out to 7-1/4”, which is a little bigger than code 140 rail, used only on the heaviest main lines. Code 100 rail is a scale 8-3/4” high, which is larger than the 8” height of 152 lb. rail, the heaviest rail used on any of the prototypes. So code 83 is closer to most prototype mainline rail and code 100 is oversized for most rails.
Why introduce an extra bit of jargon? For all basic intents and purposes ‘polarity’ is just fine for both DCC and DC. The idea is to be aware and not mess up your wiring, insisting on ‘phase’ for DCC just is not helping to meet the objective.
For anyone interested in the phase vs polarity subject I suggest taking a look at the DCC Wiki website link below. About halfway down the page is the polarity discussion.
dccwiki.com/DCC_Power
My brain hurts now! :)
That’s probably a good thing, Shows it is still working!
@@TheDCCGuy Larry, thank you so much. You're a life saver.
Very nice video Larry 👍 . It is great to see companies improving their products keeping us modelers in mind 😊 !
It's great that Walthers didn't give up when Shinohara shut down.
great review...thank you...Love these big crossovers, especially when all those metal wheels roll over them...clickitty,clack!
Thank you for covering this. I had no idea they were Being produced again. Your video was very informative I'm glad I found your channel.
Thank you for a very interesting video. I would have liked to see your unique switch machinery operate!
Cheers, Greg
Nice upload. Thanks for sharing.
Great video Larry. I’ll keep an eye out for a UK stockist but I’ll bet that it’s more pricey over here.
Regards Charlie.
I imported one direct from Walthers, whilst they had a sale on. No point (ha-ha) waiting for one to turn up here in the UK, it will cost just as much.
Larry I think if you use Walthers switch machines, one push button station will allow two switch machines to work together, great video Larry
Yes, I am pretty sure they do show a setup for that in the instructions.
I like how they made the frog juicing contacts part of the ties
I'm finally ready to install this. Thanks for the review.
Does the instructions that come with the double cross over show how to connect the four machines so they will be sycronized when one is thrown the corresponding machine will also be thrown to correspond the flow or do you need to throw both machines independently?
It’s all in the wiring or if you use accessory decoders then you can program opposing ones to the same address.
Thanks Larry, looks good.
The new Walthers turnouts are the best ones out there. I love mine and will be replacing most of the switches on my layout with them, A couple things Larry didn't mention are that the point rails are a single piece all the way to the frog; no hinges or joints to get misaligned. Also since the little eyelet for attaching the wire to power the frog is so easy to access it makes it a piece of cake to power the frog even after you have mounted the switch on your board. I've also read that the Walthers frogs are a bit larger than that of Peco's new switches, making them less susceptible to shorts when using older equipment with wider wheels. I have no personal experience of this, however. Anyway, I highly recommend the switches, well worth the slightly higher cost. They seem to be sold out of the first batch, so I'm not-so-patiently waiting for more to come in.
I don’t think the crossovers have the one piece point rail. I was hoping that he would show it a little closer
Yes, the closure rails are one piece.
This was a good review. I am impressed with your under the table switch machine. It kind of reminds of the Stereo Sound speakers crossover network. While those tracks look nice I wish WALTHERS had done a Code 100 version. Meanwhile i will just custom build my own # 6 from ATLAS. That's quite a fortune to purchase this track. While i work at a train store there is the older model you described on this video. It would be nice to see how this track works in action with some trains running. Glad you got a lower price for it. Glad to have watched this..
Thank you for sharing. Very nice.
Larry: I have a double-main layout that is already down. They are 2.5" on-center apart. Is there way to modify the Walters double crossover to fit that width? or are the other double crossovers that can be modified?
No, it would be easier to relay your tracks than try to do that. As I showed in a recent video a couple of weeks ago I always lay turnouts first then install the connecting tracks just to prevent that problem. And before you asked hand building a double crossover in place would be an even bigger headache.
Is there anywhere to find a diagram of the linkage? I am probably going to set up two tortoises, and am having trouble with imagineering the linkage. I think a good diagram of yours would greatly help. Thanks for the video!
There was an article in MR a few year go by Pele Soeborg showing his linkage. Basically all you need is some pushrods and bell cranks available at local hobby shops that sell RC models, imagination, and ingenuity. Also Circuitron makes a kit that allows one Tortoise to control 2 devices-check their website.
I hope Walthers improves on their quality control. In September I purchased 4 no. 5 right hand turnouts and on all of them the frog was not connected to the eyelet bar. The wing rails were but not the frog. One left hand no. 5 turnout worked as designed. I had grind out the plastic beneath the frog and solder it to that eyelet connecting strip.
Thanks for pointing that out. I’ll put a multimeter on the frog and make sure all contacts are solid. Guess I need to order a turnout to see if that is a widespread issue. I used several of their older DCC Friendly #5 turnouts for my Charlottesville yard without any problems but you never can tell with a new manufacturer involved.
Ok, I gave it a check and all the contacts are hot, so no issues there.
👍👍👍I guess you give it the thumbs up. Great video Larry
Larry great video, I ordered the new crossover last week, I am installing my crossover on a removable bridge, wiring is my big challenge. Not sure if i will install switch machines but if I do ,will use the Walthers version for sure
Late to the party here, what's new, LOL, but one question that was not raised Larry is how to wire the Frogs if you are using manual switches like Caboose Industries throws? Just use a Frog Juicer? How? Maybe this question has already been discussed in previous videos by you or by some other persons model RR video you could recommend? Great video by the way! 😉
Watch the video this week for an answer.
@@TheDCCGuy Wow, cool! Thanks Larry! 🙂
@@TheDCCGuy I watched Episode 313 for the answer, but you only said in Tip #5 - Power Your Frog. Did I watch the wrong Episode for your instructions on how to power a frog using manual turnout throws? Thank you for your great videos!
The answer is in Episode 310. Thank you!
Also watch #261
I wish Walthers had them in code 100 to go with the rest of my track.
Hi Larry, thanks for this video. My layout is a single-track Dog-bone, with a long Passing-Siding. I am using DC. The DCO (which I imported into the UK) is in the middle of the P-S and I would like the Point Blades to isolate, so that I can hold up to 2 trains (1 on Main, 1 in Siding) with the 3rd - zig-zagging between them. Out of the box - all Rails are Live. Walthers Instructions mention "Cut four gaps as shown for alternate Block Control wiring (four Blocks)". Stupid question from me I know, but before I take a Razor-saw to my DCO, are Walthers referring to cutting physical gaps in the four Rails at the positions they show on the Instructions?
My other alternative (I am trying to avoid) is to completely Isolate the DCO with Insulated R/J's and wire in more Switches on my Control Panel. Thanks for any advice.
I suggest you give Walthers tech support a call on this one just to make sure what they meant.
I suggest you give Walthers tech support a call on this one just to make sure what they meant.
Hi Larry, thank you for your reply. I am awaiting a response from Walthers to the hand-drawn sketch I sent to them. Regards.@@TheDCCGuy
Great video Larry! I'm considering this double crossover for my layout. Wouldn't I need 2 dual frog juicers to power all the frogs? I'm a greenhorn in the HO scale train hobby and I'm a little confused. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks again for all the very informative, excellent videos. Tug
No, once the device is set for crossover there are 2 frogs that need powering but they will need the same polarity so you just use one frog juicer circuit for the 2 on that route. The other 2 frogs in the opposite route can then be handled by the other circuit on the board. On my layout I have one operated by a single Tortoise that uses a special made mechanism to operate all 4 sets of points at the same time. I then use a dual frog juicer to handle the frogs. If you like playing with bell cranks and pushrods as used in RC airplanes you can cobble up your own mechanism.
For people newer to the hobby, it should be mentioned that a pair of single crossovers can often provide equivalent FUNCTION to a double crossover - provide you have the linear space on your layout!
I say this while recognizing that, Yes, I can imagine many situations where, even if you have the space, the double crossover will the be right choice for you.
I suppose that there has to be a reason to lay a double crossover instead of a pair of single crossovers because the latter would spare a diamond crossing. Crossings of all types are expensive and special to maintain in reality so railway network operators avoid them whenever possible. In Germany a crossing would impose a speed limit of 59 mph (80 km/h) in the best case, most of them are more limited e.g. to 37 mph (60 km/h).
Hi Larry, I purchased this crossover for the center of my double dogbone layout after watching this video. I am trying to use a HFJ to control the polarity using the diagram shown on the HFJ instruction but it is not detailed at all. I used the Shinohara wiring option of the two provided but still produce a short on the crossings but have no problem on the parallel tracks. Any chance you could show the precise placement of the 4 feeders on the crossover to alleviate the short? Thanks!
I have no idea what an HFJ is. However somewhere in the Walthers instruction sheet it mentions cutting gaps to isolate sections in case where the unit is placed across two blocks and that is what you need to look at.
@@TheDCCGuy HFJ=Hex Frog Juicer from Tam Valley. Just to make sure, I gap all 4 parallel tracks at the exact center of the crossover? Thank you for your help!
Ok, I too used a DFJ following their diagram and it worked fine but mine is not across any block gaps.
I ordered 3 of these to replace existing older versions however I have found these are not as long as the older versions, I'll have to add rail in order to make these fit. Not sure why they didn't make them the same length? My track and roadbed is fixed in place using caulk so changing track is not easy. I did not caulk any turnouts for just this reason. As I previously wired not only my frogs but also the point rails I had also planned to begin using and replacing all turnouts with the new style to eliminate that hassle but will need to see if those are a drop in or not now. I love the solid point rails and the frog terminal.
I’ll have to compare the new and old ones to see what the compressed. With respect to using caulk or adhesive I use Liquid Nails for Projects and although it holds well I find I can usually left sections of track by sliding a putty knife under it. It leaves only a thin layer of adhesive which can be scrubbed off allowing the track or turnout to be reused. Of course this may depend on which caulk you used.
@@TheDCCGuy I used latex based, I have done removals, just a bit of work. I picked up an Oscillating tool and use a fine blade in it, works rather well. The track itself is unusable. I have pictures of the difference in length, if you place the new on top of the old there are subtle differences it appears so I maybe able to shift it one way or another and extend only 1 end. Need that proverbial rail stretcher...
Have you tried soaking them in warm water? That can help with removing any residual latex caulk.
@@TheDCCGuy I have not, usually I end up pulling ties off the rail in spots. Next time I'll try to salvage better and try your water idea.
There might be a difference in length because of the frogs. Could the old crossovers have been a larger frog number or built to a larger number? The ones shown here are No 6. No railroad I know of would use less than No 10 frogs for mainline or terminal locations. For compression and modeling, No 6 would be the smallest recommended for operation.
It might be kind of hard to get adequate measurements, but you could measure the old and new frogs to see if they are the same: this will work for any straight frog (not curved), divide a frog down the middle from the point to the heel, use a suitable dimension such as mm or 1/16 or 1/8 inch, measure across the frog perpendicular to the split line so there is a full dimension and make a mark, find on the frog where the next full dimension is and make a mark, measure between these marks in the same base dimension, that should be the frog number. That is how I determined frog numbers in the field if there was not an identification plate on the frog; I would use inches. Unless a frog is very worn, it is very accurate.
For your model track just lay one crossover over the other one.
Excellent video and very clear explanation, thank you for sharing. I have 3 of the Shinohara crossovers installed and I have used a single Tutoise for each one. I use a different control mechanism for each. Probably the simplest one is the one using one RTM (Remote Tortoise Turnout) and 3 extra actuators (880-6101) saved $20. Using linkages made from R/C airplane control rods and an adapter to connect to linkages to the single Tortoise , saved $30.Once you consider the labor involved, it seems to me that one is better off just using 4 switch machines.
Yes, that was my feeling too.When I install the next dbl crossover I will likely use 4 Tortoises.
Unfortunately for OO scale modellers here in the UK, Im not aware of any manufacturer makes these in code 75 or 100. There are 1 or 2 people who make them to order but they are expensive and the quality is variable to say the least.
There isn’t a big difference between code 83 and code 75 or even code 100. I have mixed a few code 100 turnouts in with code 83 track without any problems. For example for the gantlet track I showed in my signals video I used old Shinohara code 100 turnouts for the leads into it. Once painted and ballasted you can’t tell the difference.
It looks like Walthers is delivering on quality track with these new releases!
I have a lot of the older Shinohara code 83 track and it takes quite a bit of work to get it DCC friendly.
I like using two Tortoise switch machines with two 'Remote Tortoise Mount' (800-6100) and two 'Extra Cable & Actuator' (800-6101) to control that double crossover. The frogs can be wired directly to the Tortoises and you have an 'off the shelf' version of that fancy custom one of a kind thing you showed us.
Just offering that up as an option for anyone who doesn't want to go with four switch machines.
I had considered doing that as well as using cables, bell pulls, etc to rig up a Rube Goldberg but then I aded up the cost and it is just as expensive as using 4 Tortoises and nowhere near as troublesome.
@@TheDCCGuy You are right about total cost, but I have found that once the cables are properly adjusted and the screws tightened - they are trouble free! It also takes up a lot less space under the layout with only 2 switch machines.
In my case, I already had a bunch of Tortoises that I bought years ago, and wanted to use them 'sparingly'.
I also like the remote Tortoise mounts that allow me to put the switch machine 'nearby' which keeps my wiring and benchwork neater depending on where the points are topside. It also allows for a thicker layout board - I have 1&1/2" foam with 1/2" homasote on top, then cork roadbed - the Tortoise connection rotates rather than moving side to side for the points. I can understand that some may not want the short wire 'lever' on the track (or next to the track) that throws the points, but I'm okay with it.
BOY did you hit the nail on the head with you user name lol Started yrs ago buying track & some switches I have a few general horrors including the cross over Unfortunately loads of Atlas And 500' plus of brass Flex Been a couple years now I'm trying to convert this building Is with the goal of a fairly good side layout Unfortunately I'm I'm not getting any younger nor nor could I afford to do everything in Nickel My helper cruise is showing up today for another round I can finally see light at the end of the tunnel Party like a teenager when I get on the bench work L o l
Question. If I were to add 4 Caboose hobbies ground throws with contacts what one should I use cause I want to leave the springs in the switch. Thanks
I think they only make one with contacts.
Larry, is the dual frog juicer handling all 4 frogs? How is it wired? I am using 4 tortoise switch machines on mine.Would I be better off letting the Tortoise unit handle the frog power as opposed to the frog juicer? Any real advantage of one over the other?
Thanks for the great videos!
Tom
Yes, it works because the frogs are aligned in pairs so each half of the frog juicer can handle two each. If I were using multiple Tortoises I would have used the SPDTs but with inly one Tortoise I had to come up with a different option.
Larry, thanks for breaking these down. What are the track centers on them and did you get any arrival info on the rest of the Walthers track?
2” centers, pretty much the HO standard these days for parallel straight track. The best way to see what has arrived is to check their website and see if they’re in stock. Since the crossovers are here I suspect they got a shipment of most of the new turnouts and track as well.
Larry, I checked their site and all code 83 is on backorder, even the number 6 double crossover. I never saw them in stock on Walthers, maybe I should try hobby sites, do you care to share where you found it?
Try www.blueridgehobbies.com
Thank you.
Very thorough, however, what is the spacing from centerline to centerline?
2” is pretty much a de facto standard for mainline track in HO scale and what these are set for.
Having only revisited the hobby over the last couple years with collecting rolling stock, my only experience with switches are the old DC brass power switches. I am wrapping up refinishing my old basement and preparing to start on a shelf layout. If you have the time, it would be nice to see a video of this turtle switch in operation both above and below deck. I have some hobby level fabricating skills and tools and might try something similar with a single switch. I'd like to install a crossover both at the top and bottom of a helix I have planned.
Thanks.
Don
Basically if you can connect up some bell cranks and pushrods you can make it happen.
Larry, I've installed the crossover on my layout and the system shorts out as the engine crosses from one track to the other. It rolls on through when running straight through as mainlines. Do I need to install a frog juicer and so do you have a diagram on how to wire up this crossover?
Are you sure you have the new version, it should have come with an instruction in the package-mine did. Assuming you have connected to powered rails at each end and they are of the correct phase on the two tracks then you should have no problems. Are your parallel tracks wired the same way-right rails the same phase on each track? Do yours have the small projections on each side for the frog power connections?
@@TheDCCGuy Got to checking the wiring closely today and found that I did have a small section of track leading to a reverse loop that was wired wrong. Fixed it and now it works fine. Yes it is the new version and it works fine without using the little tabs to power the frogs. Thanks for responding. Stay safe and healthy.
My scissors crossover will be in a double track setup. How do I handle the tracks being powered by two separate controllers? There will be times when trains will be in motion in different directions on the crossover.
Are you using DC or DCC? I have a double track mainline on my HO layout with multiple crossovers and have no issues. I wire the parallel rails identically off the same power bus and no problems. I explained this in my video #219 on making crossovers. Th spacing on the tracks is 2” which I think is what Peco uses.
@@TheDCCGuy I'm using analog DC. I have several hundred locos that I've been accumulating since the 1950s, and it would cost much too much to have them all converted to digital.
thank you for your detailed video
Hi Larry
Many thanks for the extremely informative videos.
Could you recommend an outlet that offers the best deals on Walthers track. I live in France and would like to try out their track.
Regards
Steve A
Obviously Walthers themselves would be an obvious choice but expect to pay full price. Also they import in batches which go out of stock almost immediately which is why I use either MicroEngineering or Peco. I have no idea whether most US hobby shops ship overseas. I order from Blue Ridge Hobbies in South Carolina Nd he gives a healthy discount. You might try some of the UK shops that specialize in US modeling or carry Walthers products but that will require some checking around to fond them, just like I do for Hornby locos, etc.
Very good video with very good sound. Glad you used a lapel mic as your voice is very clear. Unfortunately a lot of videos on this subject of model railroading you have a hard time hearing the host. Great job.
It took months and several microphones to get the right combination.
Re: around 6:00, How on earth would you re-align the frog if you melt the plastic? I’d pay to see anyone accomplish that Herculean feat
It ain’t easy which is why I warned folks!
Suggestion: if you could find a way to do a top down view with your camera when you are explaining for example how your crossover worked. It would make seeing what you are explaining much easier,especially if someone is watching on a phone.
Thank you for another great video!
Hard to do such an angle on a double deck layout where the upper deck overhangs the area being filmed.
Thanks for the informative video. But I do have a question which was not addressed. Is it possible to have all 4 turnouts set to "diverging" at the same time so that the double crossover "always" sends every train to the alternate track? (imagine a layout with inner and outer simple loops where a single train is always crossing from the inner to the outer loop and back again). Some say that a dead short will be created making this impossible.
Yes it is possible and actually on my Walthers double crossover, even though I can change them, all my points are thrown whenever the crossover is activated since I use a single Tortoise for control. With them permanently thrown you can simply hardwire the frogs to the correct bus wires and they would always be the correct phase so no cutouts or shorts there, ever.
@@TheDCCGuy Thank you for your quick response. I should have realized that your amazing mechanism (a real work of art) was doing exactly what I was hoping to accomplish.
You know I love Walther's products. And their support is pretty good. But some of their products are over twice as expensive as the competition. ME bridge track code 83 is $15. Walthers Bridge track is $42 (And that's discount). Atlas customline switch is $20 on sale. Walthers, over $40 for a similar switch. And I love the Walthers flex for the looks, but it is certainly harder to work with, and easier to damage. Plus you need a special tool for spike insertion. I would rather hide a small nailhead in the tie.
I agree, Walthers tends to be poor value especially if you’re paying retail price
My brother in law has an older crossover that he’s just installed. It shorts out every time the train starts to switch!
He bought a new Walthers double crossover that is DCC friendly, is it plug and play? If he hooks it up can he just use it? Or does he have to run feeders to the new one to get the loco not to short out?
It is DCC Friendly out of the package. Just install it connected to powered rails and go. The little solder connectors I showed on it are for adding power to the frogs.
Awesome thanks.
Hi Larry, I have a Walther's Double Crossover and I am a new to model railroading and I'm not too good at installing switch machines, but my trains short out when crossing over to the next rail line. I see where you show the posts for wiring but you don't actually show how to wired the unit. I literally need a graphic example on how to wire power to the Crossover correctly. What wire goes where? I am lost and I really need help correcting the issue I have. I am so lost. Please? I need help. Thanks in advance.
The instructions are quite clear, do you still have the copy that came in the package. As long as you have the connecting tracks powered correctly on all four ends of the double crossover it should work fine. However did you install power wires to the frogs? what switch machines are you using?
@@TheDCCGuy
My layout is small as I have limited space in my apartment. My layout currently is 4X8 and I do not have switch machines. I'll have to throw the switches manually for now. I didn't install power wires on all (4) ends of the turnout but I"ll try that. Also, the instruction sheet was not inside the box when I received it and I can't find it online. I will follow your suggestions. Thanks so much for your help. ☺
Give me a day or two and I’ll make a copy of the instructions for you to download from my website.
@@TheDCCGuy Thanks so much Larry.
Ok, go to my website at larrypuckett.wordpress.com and click on the download button for the instructions sheet.
is it possible to run the crossover with two switch machines?
Yes, if you are good with cobbling together bits and pieces to make a linkage system. I considered this and figured it would be quicker, easier, and cheaper to just use 4 switch machines.
@@TheDCCGuy I mean does the frog phase gonna get messed up if I only use 2 switch machines (therefore only 2 switched outputs)?
If I understand what you are saying and you only intend to use 2 of the 4 sets of points and only power the frogs associated with them then it should not be an issue. But then you could do it easier with a simple crossover using only 2 turnouts.
@@TheDCCGuy thank you sir
Great looking, and operating double crossover, Larry.
I've been wondering a long time is there any chance of Walthers, or anyone, ever making a #4 double crossover version, like the Shinohara types?
This in either code 100 and or code 83, or even code 70?
I have four of them that I use, for my rapid Transit lines and they are excellent for saving space.
Shinohara, used to make them years ago, in code 100.
Amazingly, the last series I was able to purchase, actually work with my DCC, point to point layout.
These #4 double crossovers, are great for trolley lines as well.
The other words my question is;
Do you think anybody will ever manufacture #4 double crossovers in HO scale, regardless of rail code?
If there is a market for them they may but it has been hard enough just getting the Walthers ones back in production so don’t hold your breath.
@@TheDCCGuy Thanks Larry.
Yeah; For modeling, #4 double crossovers, (along with double slip switches), are great for rapid transit terminals, and yards.
Great videos... Thanks again Larry.
I was wondering about something, the machine that is controlling the four turnouts on your Piedmont Southern. Do you think the guy who made it for you could make it for others if they ask him?
I have not heard from him in several years, but I doubt he would. He did it mainly as a personal challenge to design and build a machine that would do the whole job with only a single Tortoise. Besides I bet you could buy a fleet of DCC equipped locomotives for what it would cost. If he is still around maybe he will respond to this comment.
I think the article you refer to was by Pele Soeborg in Model Railroader a few years ago. He used plastic rods etc. to make a rig that threw both sets of points in a single crossover. Throwing both routes in a double crossover simultaneously might not be prototypical but we do a lot of things that are not prototypical. Ever see a real steam loco driven with an electric motor? Or real couplers that opened with a magnet or a 30’ tall coupler pick?
Can I convert this new Walthers # 83051 double crossover track from DCC to DC?
Works fine with DC or DCC.
Ahoj Larry super video vše pěkně vysvětleno perfekt😍👍🙂🍻💓
I have a Walthers Mainline NS F7A 271 with DCC and Sound
Nice models, I bought all the ones in Southern green and they are great to fill out the fleet.
I also have a Walthers Mainline NS ES44AC but when I have the ditch light on they flash steady and not back and forth when I blow the horn and I have been trying to fix it so it will flash
can I use an atlas under the table switch machine on the new Walthers #83051 double crossover track? Thank you.
Just one question. Will they be coming out with an n scale version?
Does Walthers make any N-scale track?
Excellent Video Larry, what is the Quality like against Peco Track? Trust that you have not been affected by those Tornados. Keep safe.
I’ll give it a critical look and get back to you, but I was pretty impressed.
i had to tare out and re-install a real one of these last year.
Where? If in USA I’d be surprised as I’ve never seen one
@@Syclone0044 just of the end of the platform at Stanmore station North London UK.
Polarity is the correct word even though it's not DC but very close to AC current. It's all single phase not two phases you are either in phase or out of phase.
In AC circuits, because the existence of Reactive Components, the Voltage and Current may not reach the same amplitude peaks at the same time, they generally have a difference in timing. This timing difference is called Phase Shift, f, 0° ≤ f ≤ 90°, and is measured in angular degrees. (From the Communications Museum website.)
I watched the whole video but never saw the price!?
I generally don’t get into prices since they vary from greatly country to country and among vendors.
A Whalthers double crossovers code 83 HO .
I wanna in N scale.
Kato double crossovers N scale.
do they still make these ?
You can check the Walthers website to see if they are in stock.
Thanks Larry. Do we know who makes it, or is it just anonymous Chinese manufacturer? Just wondering as it's always useful to have additional track manufacturers up your sleeve for when you encounter a situation where you need something a bit different and don't want to handbuild or start adapting the readily available makes (my dad's layout combined Peco, Shinohara, Casadio, handbuilt, Fleischmann, Roco, Tillig and others! )
PS I don't know about the US, but phase means something different in the UK where most houses are on a single phase supply, but larger users will be on a three-phase supply. I get what you mean about polarity, but I'm not convinced it's worth switching to a new term.
Yes, the mains do come in different phases over here too but you never hear anyone talking about it.
I am not exactly sure where you are going with single-phase or 3-phase supply. In the US, almost all houses and apartment units are supplied with 240V single-phase 60 Hetz (cycle) AC which is split at the breaker box into 2 120V supplies for use through the breakers (fuses). Heavy user circuits like a stove, water heater, AC/furnace, and/or clothes drier are single circuits of 240V single-phase to each appliance. The power network from the generator, transmission lines, etc down to the street distribution lines are 3-phase. Heavy (large power) users, shops, plants, etc. are supplied with 3-phase with varying voltages to suit the needs of the business ranging from 240V up. Most large machines, lathes, mills, elevators, large AC systems, etc, use 440-480V 3-phase power. Most of the rest of the world uses 50 Hertz (cycle) 240V AC with a lot being 3-phase into homes. North America is kinda different.
why not Code 100?
The most common HO scale rail codes are code 70, 83, and 100, corresponding to .07”, .083”, and .1”. Multiplying .07 by 87.1 (the proportion of HO scale) gives us a scale rail height of approximately 6”. According to the chart, 6” is the prototype height of 100 lb. rail, a fairly heavy branchline or light mainline rail. Code 83 comes out to 7-1/4”, which is a little bigger than code 140 rail, used only on the heaviest main lines. Code 100 rail is a scale 8-3/4” high, which is larger than the 8” height of 152 lb. rail, the heaviest rail used on any of the prototypes. So code 83 is closer to most prototype mainline rail and code 100 is oversized for most rails.
That's cheap. Price a ross O gauge double cross over. This is just one of the reasons I'm leaning heavily towards H O.
Walthers will double cross you.
Why introduce an extra bit of jargon? For all basic intents and purposes ‘polarity’ is just fine for both DCC and DC. The idea is to be aware and not mess up your wiring, insisting on ‘phase’ for DCC just is not helping to meet the objective.
A I have one in mycrt wchd your video before I buy I hank you
From China?
Your quality questionable.
If it was made in America it would be 3 times the price, it’s the reality of global supply manufacturing
Probably posted this from an iPhone, do you know where those are made?
Absolute junk. Plastic frogs? No thanks.
You definitely didn’t watch the video lol