Apologies if I missed this (I'll rewatch), but complexity is a hard one. Like, Chess and Twilight Imperium both get like a high 3-4 rating. One is complex because it's complex, and the other has a giant rulebook. Both I would say are rightfully complex. There should be like a 'teachability' category.
This is why I make strategy and complexity separate attributes. Complexity Could also be called teachability. I would say chess has low complexity and high strategy. TI has high complexity and the strategy is not as high as chess because a few elements of luck mean the game doesn’t entirely depend on player decisions.
See, I think of Chess as very deep in strategy, but I don't think it's very complex at all. These days, if Chess came out as a new game, it would have a player supplementary board that shows you all the moves possible for each piece, because that's all the complexity that really exists in Chess IMO.
I wasn't clear with this, my apologies --- I tend to look at the 'weight' on bgg quite a bit. Ticket to Ride: 1.8 Twilight Imperium: 4.28 (ish) Chess: 3.68 When a game gets above like a 2.4, I tend to have to be really guarded about "could I teach this?" Chess, I could teach. Twilight Imperium --- no way.
@@sonofabippi It's very possible that I just don't understand "weight" in board games. When I started researching games to buy once I started getting into this hobby, I took the "weight" rating as a scale of just how much you needed to "unpack" for lack of better wording, in order to play it, as in lots of pieces, lots of rules, lots of time needed to play. This might just be a misunderstanding on my part for being a noob.
@@coreyray248 "I took the "weight" rating as a scale of just how much you needed to "unpack" for lack of better wording, in order to play it, as in lots of pieces, lots of rules, lots of time needed to play. This might just be a misunderstanding on my part for being a noob." Well, if you're wrong about that, then so am I, because that's exactly my understanding of the "weight" category. 😄
Wow, I love this idea, sounds like it would be very useful for many/most people who are either new to the hobby [eg, their most complex game is something like Ticket to Ride or Catan] or just looking for a casual or family game. Can I ask you to explain "theme" as implemented on your site? Games like Ticket to Ride or Carcassonne, what would their theme score generally be?
I just looked on the website out of curiosity to see what they were listed as. Both are a ‘2’. That seems about right. For theme, I examine how the gameplay stoppers what the game is about. For example, in Catan, players assess the value of land in order to claim plots of land and harvest there. The assessment of the land is very thematic. Trading when you are by the sea is also very thematic. Things that are not thematic would be determining production by rolling dice, trading with anyone any amount despite geographic proximity, the randomness of development cards, and the whole concept of “the thief”. All of these other elements aren’t there because they support the theme of the game; rather, they are there to motivate players and generate conflict. A much more thematic game would be Suburbia with a middle-high score and Small City with (possibly) the highest score.
Would love to see this made into an app I can use on my phone, like BGstats, but with your breakdown of scoring mechanics/factors. The page isn't very mobile browser friendly at the moment. Will check it out on my desktop later! 😊👍
I just made an update to improve the overall look of the site as well as its appearance on mobile devices. This was just a small update, but the most important thing is that it fixes the menu bar navigation.
Yes. I can add it for you or if you’d like to shoot me an email because this is a project you are especially interested in, I can talk to you non-publicly about more advanced permissions.
I've used your site and I really like it for the graphs and for looking for games with certain attributes. Yes, it's still very limited because it's new and growing, but you're doing an awesome job with it. I would like to help out as a user, however, I have not been into board games long enough to feel like MY ratings should be trusted by anyone. I'm going on sites like these to get expert opinions so that I don't buy crappy games my family will hate playing. That being said, I do like your approach a lot more than BGG for sorting and discovery, it's just that they have the bigger database FOR NOW. I hope this catches on big and your site gets the attention it deserves.
I rate games purely based how people I am playing react to it, how easy is to get them to play games again, how much fun the game provides. And how difficult final scoring is. Also quality of components are very important to me. (If the game needs to be played with "calculator" and just summing up points, and calculating more points...and more points...then I engage my accountant LOL :) which means the game goes to the symbolic bin ...) I like substance and some weight of the games, but it needs to be well presented and relatively easy to get to it. Games need to be fun... then other elements can kick in.
What does Mechanics mean? All game have mechanics. "Euros" prioritize mechanics over theme. They use them theme just as an user interface to make the game atractive and to have something that the players can use to relate the mechanics with. "American" games prioritize theme over mechanics. They use mechanics just as a tool to make things work and sometimes to create drama so that the theme can come through. But both games use theme and mechanics anyway. And nowadays there are no mechanics or themes that are exclusive to any particular category. For example an American style game can have worker placement mechanics or an Euro style game can have an adventure theme. The only thing that can differentiate both categories is their priority, either the theme or the mechanics, priorities have not changed. It is also true that there are many Hybrid games that prioritized both theme and mechanics, or at least they try.
Nice description! Yes, so when I rate these games on those attributes, I am rating the designer’s priority of theme/mechanics and how well they have executed.
I like that you are looking ahead. I look ahead to, although I have a few steps between where it is today and getting it to there. Did you know that the rating system I use now isn’t the one I describe in this video? It has evolved slightly through collecting feedback on this TH-cam channel. That was step 1!
7:23 zomg... Stefan Feld drops a 100 page rule book, BGG loses its sh*t. I get really annoyed with this. Also (as you said), cmon drops a doorstop that's an awful game but it has great components...
Like Gloomhaven is still number one for what now 6 years in a row? Yet many dislike this game due to how big it is and the length of time to complete it. I think half of the people on BGG who vote for Gloomhaven probably only played a few scenario, enjoyed them and then put the game away and stopped playing it but still rate it high due to their memories of the parts they played.
So almost a year after th making I find this vid bc I'm super frustrated w/a coupla elements of BGG. I just checkd yer site and it looks like ya got a pretty firm grip on yer construct of game eval. That's great... we all needed to be pickin up what yer throwin down. But yer key remedies of key problems don't actually address my key disdain re th BGG marketplace. I don't need links to Amazon's deals of th day; I need a more integral inter/exchange of used boardgames btwn enthusiasts. is that a thing? Am I alone on this? I'm happy to purch some merch to support a cause, but I've been bent by patreon one too many... Help me help you. What do I do next?
What do you mean “more integral exchange of used boardgames”? Do you mean you want a marketplace to sell/trade games or you want to be able to talk to other people about the games they love? I love your enthusiasm and I want to take your feedback!!
Long time listener here, that has given you grief in the past. :) I love what you're trying to accomplish, but here are a couple of problems I see after signing in. 1. I think you need to make your definition of the categories more apparent. I had to go searching for them. They are not as intuitive (at least for me) as imagined. I.e your definition of 'mechanics' is not what I would have thought mechanics to mean. 2. What if I don't agree with your classification. (I.e my opinion on Nemesis would have mechanics much higher rated). 3. I understand that I can judge categories but putting a restriction of a mandatory review before being allowed to nudge will seriously limit your audience input. I personally, hate writing reviews and would much rather stick to numbers. Have you implemented the interaction category yet?
Yeah. I don’t remember every message between us, but I remember the names of those who frequently comment and I love seeing them come back. Thank you! I’m going to answer your questions, but in reverse order because the logic will make more sense: #3 You actually don’t have to actually write a review! Just log in and rate a game using 1-5 stars. That’s it! Even a numerical rating counts as a review. If you already did that and it still won’t let you make other changes, it could be a bug. Let me know. #2 In my TH-cam videos, I will always share my personal opinion, but on the app, the rating is the average upvote/down vote result of every reviewer. If you think Nemesis should have a higher rating, just click the up arrow and the average will be updated immediately. #1 the ambiguity is intentional, to a degree. “Mechanics” relates to the rules of the game, but I’m not pretending to have a monopoly on what that means to gamers. The sound mechanic in Nemesis is unique, intuitive, and brilliantly supports the theme. Perhaps you would argue a higher rating for that reason. I think it should be a lower rating for my own reasons, but you should disagree with me!
@@theperfectboardgame there is definitely a bug occuring then, because when I log in, and find a game I am given no options to review. If I reload the page, it loads correctly but I'm logged out. Maybe this is redundant, not being able to use it, but how does a nudge differ from being able to input my own values for the categories? Would be nice if (using my example for nemesis) I think mechanics are a 10 then it would average them out with other players mechanic rankings. For the record I actually agree with your nemesis scores ( just used it as an example). Also when I look at games I still see luck as a category not complexity. Has this not been implemented yet? Anyways. Just feedback, cause I'd like to help you build this (also being frustrated with BGG ratings)
Thanks. It’s a bummer to hear about a bug right after I posted a video asking people to use the site, but I think that is part of the process in creating a new project. Has to start somehow and no better way to improve it than to get feedback from users. Anyway, I’ll look into it. I’d like to explain more in depth about how a nudge works. Short description is: attributes have binary grading: a nudge “up” is a 10. A nudge “down” is a zero. Longer answer is: if this is a project you are really interested in, I would like to know if you’d like to become an editor. As an editor, you have far more privileges. You can even add games that aren’t for sale on Amazon or set the baseline attribute for any game. (Not just nudge it but actually set it.) Can you send me an email and we will talk more?
Apologies if I missed this (I'll rewatch), but complexity is a hard one. Like, Chess and Twilight Imperium both get like a high 3-4 rating. One is complex because it's complex, and the other has a giant rulebook. Both I would say are rightfully complex. There should be like a 'teachability' category.
This is why I make strategy and complexity separate attributes. Complexity Could also be called teachability. I would say chess has low complexity and high strategy. TI has high complexity and the strategy is not as high as chess because a few elements of luck mean the game doesn’t entirely depend on player decisions.
See, I think of Chess as very deep in strategy, but I don't think it's very complex at all. These days, if Chess came out as a new game, it would have a player supplementary board that shows you all the moves possible for each piece, because that's all the complexity that really exists in Chess IMO.
I wasn't clear with this, my apologies --- I tend to look at the 'weight' on bgg quite a bit.
Ticket to Ride: 1.8
Twilight Imperium: 4.28 (ish)
Chess: 3.68
When a game gets above like a 2.4, I tend to have to be really guarded about "could I teach this?" Chess, I could teach. Twilight Imperium --- no way.
@@sonofabippi It's very possible that I just don't understand "weight" in board games. When I started researching games to buy once I started getting into this hobby, I took the "weight" rating as a scale of just how much you needed to "unpack" for lack of better wording, in order to play it, as in lots of pieces, lots of rules, lots of time needed to play. This might just be a misunderstanding on my part for being a noob.
@@coreyray248 "I took the "weight" rating as a scale of just how much you needed to "unpack" for lack of better wording, in order to play it, as in lots of pieces, lots of rules, lots of time needed to play. This might just be a misunderstanding on my part for being a noob."
Well, if you're wrong about that, then so am I, because that's exactly my understanding of the "weight" category. 😄
Wow, I love this idea, sounds like it would be very useful for many/most people who are either new to the hobby [eg, their most complex game is something like Ticket to Ride or Catan] or just looking for a casual or family game.
Can I ask you to explain "theme" as implemented on your site? Games like Ticket to Ride or Carcassonne, what would their theme score generally be?
I just looked on the website out of curiosity to see what they were listed as. Both are a ‘2’. That seems about right. For theme, I examine how the gameplay stoppers what the game is about. For example, in Catan, players assess the value of land in order to claim plots of land and harvest there. The assessment of the land is very thematic. Trading when you are by the sea is also very thematic. Things that are not thematic would be determining production by rolling dice, trading with anyone any amount despite geographic proximity, the randomness of development cards, and the whole concept of “the thief”. All of these other elements aren’t there because they support the theme of the game; rather, they are there to motivate players and generate conflict. A much more thematic game would be Suburbia with a middle-high score and Small City with (possibly) the highest score.
@@theperfectboardgame Ok, now I understand, thank you
[yes, I know I'm upvoting my own comments, but it's good for your channel!]
Would love to see this made into an app I can use on my phone, like BGstats, but with your breakdown of scoring mechanics/factors. The page isn't very mobile browser friendly at the moment. Will check it out on my desktop later! 😊👍
Thank you for the feedback. I’ll work on it.
I just made an update to improve the overall look of the site as well as its appearance on mobile devices. This was just a small update, but the most important thing is that it fixes the menu bar navigation.
Site seems to be working and I can now add reviews....made 5 reviews just now. Can't wait to see the progress of your work
I do have 1 question...... If I'm searching for a game that the website can't find, is there any way to request one be added?
Yes. I can add it for you or if you’d like to shoot me an email because this is a project you are especially interested in, I can talk to you non-publicly about more advanced permissions.
That makes me so excited! Thank you!!
@@theperfectboardgame awesome will do
I've used your site and I really like it for the graphs and for looking for games with certain attributes. Yes, it's still very limited because it's new and growing, but you're doing an awesome job with it. I would like to help out as a user, however, I have not been into board games long enough to feel like MY ratings should be trusted by anyone. I'm going on sites like these to get expert opinions so that I don't buy crappy games my family will hate playing. That being said, I do like your approach a lot more than BGG for sorting and discovery, it's just that they have the bigger database FOR NOW. I hope this catches on big and your site gets the attention it deserves.
Thank you so much. It’s very encouraging to hear that the site is useful to people.
I rate games purely based how people I am playing react to it, how easy is to get them to play games again, how much fun the game provides. And how difficult final scoring is. Also quality of components are very important to me. (If the game needs to be played with "calculator" and just summing up points, and calculating more points...and more points...then I engage my accountant LOL :) which means the game goes to the symbolic bin ...) I like substance and some weight of the games, but it needs to be well presented and relatively easy to get to it. Games need to be fun... then other elements can kick in.
Yes. Even games that I have been harsh on have been the best possible option for the right audience.
What does Mechanics mean? All game have mechanics.
"Euros" prioritize mechanics over theme. They use them theme just as an user interface to make the game atractive and to have something that the players can use to relate the mechanics with.
"American" games prioritize theme over mechanics. They use mechanics just as a tool to make things work and sometimes to create drama so that the theme can come through.
But both games use theme and mechanics anyway. And nowadays there are no mechanics or themes that are exclusive to any particular category. For example an American style game can have worker placement mechanics or an Euro style game can have an adventure theme. The only thing that can differentiate both categories is their priority, either the theme or the mechanics, priorities have not changed. It is also true that there are many Hybrid games that prioritized both theme and mechanics, or at least they try.
Nice description! Yes, so when I rate these games on those attributes, I am rating the designer’s priority of theme/mechanics and how well they have executed.
I like this method. Thanks
You should sell this solution to LGSs for a very affordable fee to build a database and market thier stores. Might get around BGG
Give me a shoutout if this works 👍
I like that you are looking ahead. I look ahead to, although I have a few steps between where it is today and getting it to there. Did you know that the rating system I use now isn’t the one I describe in this video? It has evolved slightly through collecting feedback on this TH-cam channel. That was step 1!
7:23 zomg... Stefan Feld drops a 100 page rule book, BGG loses its sh*t. I get really annoyed with this. Also (as you said), cmon drops a doorstop that's an awful game but it has great components...
This is cool. You should team up with the Board Game Nexus. They already have a site. Just saying.
Like Gloomhaven is still number one for what now 6 years in a row? Yet many dislike this game due to how big it is and the length of time to complete it. I think half of the people on BGG who vote for Gloomhaven probably only played a few scenario, enjoyed them and then put the game away and stopped playing it but still rate it high due to their memories of the parts they played.
So almost a year after th making I find this vid bc I'm super frustrated w/a coupla elements of BGG. I just checkd yer site and it looks like ya got a pretty firm grip on yer construct of game eval. That's great... we all needed to be pickin up what yer throwin down. But yer key remedies of key problems don't actually address my key disdain re th BGG marketplace. I don't need links to Amazon's deals of th day; I need a more integral inter/exchange of used boardgames btwn enthusiasts. is that a thing? Am I alone on this? I'm happy to purch some merch to support a cause, but I've been bent by patreon one too many... Help me help you. What do I do next?
What do you mean “more integral exchange of used boardgames”? Do you mean you want a marketplace to sell/trade games or you want to be able to talk to other people about the games they love? I love your enthusiasm and I want to take your feedback!!
@@theperfectboardgame I'd rather address the issue(s) through an email. Is the address on yer website still good?
@@justplainoltex4991 yes. You can use that email. Please forgive me if my response is slow, as I am on vacation.
Long time listener here, that has given you grief in the past. :) I love what you're trying to accomplish, but here are a couple of problems I see after signing in.
1. I think you need to make your definition of the categories more apparent. I had to go searching for them. They are not as intuitive (at least for me) as imagined. I.e your definition of 'mechanics' is not what I would have thought mechanics to mean.
2. What if I don't agree with your classification. (I.e my opinion on Nemesis would have mechanics much higher rated).
3. I understand that I can judge categories but putting a restriction of a mandatory review before being allowed to nudge will seriously limit your audience input. I personally, hate writing reviews and would much rather stick to numbers.
Have you implemented the interaction category yet?
Yeah. I don’t remember every message between us, but I remember the names of those who frequently comment and I love seeing them come back. Thank you!
I’m going to answer your questions, but in reverse order because the logic will make more sense:
#3 You actually don’t have to actually write a review! Just log in and rate a game using 1-5 stars. That’s it! Even a numerical rating counts as a review. If you already did that and it still won’t let you make other changes, it could be a bug. Let me know.
#2 In my TH-cam videos, I will always share my personal opinion, but on the app, the rating is the average upvote/down vote result of every reviewer. If you think Nemesis should have a higher rating, just click the up arrow and the average will be updated immediately.
#1 the ambiguity is intentional, to a degree. “Mechanics” relates to the rules of the game, but I’m not pretending to have a monopoly on what that means to gamers. The sound mechanic in Nemesis is unique, intuitive, and brilliantly supports the theme. Perhaps you would argue a higher rating for that reason. I think it should be a lower rating for my own reasons, but you should disagree with me!
@@theperfectboardgame there is definitely a bug occuring then, because when I log in, and find a game I am given no options to review. If I reload the page, it loads correctly but I'm logged out.
Maybe this is redundant, not being able to use it, but how does a nudge differ from being able to input my own values for the categories? Would be nice if (using my example for nemesis) I think mechanics are a 10 then it would average them out with other players mechanic rankings. For the record I actually agree with your nemesis scores ( just used it as an example).
Also when I look at games I still see luck as a category not complexity. Has this not been implemented yet?
Anyways. Just feedback, cause I'd like to help you build this (also being frustrated with BGG ratings)
Thanks. It’s a bummer to hear about a bug right after I posted a video asking people to use the site, but I think that is part of the process in creating a new project. Has to start somehow and no better way to improve it than to get feedback from users. Anyway, I’ll look into it.
I’d like to explain more in depth about how a nudge works. Short description is: attributes have binary grading: a nudge “up” is a 10. A nudge “down” is a zero. Longer answer is: if this is a project you are really interested in, I would like to know if you’d like to become an editor. As an editor, you have far more privileges. You can even add games that aren’t for sale on Amazon or set the baseline attribute for any game. (Not just nudge it but actually set it.) Can you send me an email and we will talk more?
Mustafa Crossing