There Never Was A "Dark Age" | Jonathan Pageau
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.ค. 2021
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History of the West in View of the East - fr. John Strickland: • History of the West in...
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Hilarious to me that any age that grinds the unborn by the million would judge any other time on earth.
we may be in the worst period of all time and think its the best. the very existence of something like commie China would be unthinkable in any age past.
@@white6505 in so many respects it has never been better, true true. But it has a dark dark underside.
@@fragwagon how can we judge civilizations in the first place, if not by some value or ideal superior to it? the only two things to have developed - technology and quality of life - can't form a civilization on their own. our quality of life regarding comfort and safety is very relative, as seen by the genocide and torture of millions in communist regimes and the increasing rates of abortions, abuse, depression and suicide. even hunger alone has caused more destruction in the past century than in the 14th. crazy to think about. and technology means more surveillance, more control, less freedom. the freedom we enjoy now is merely a collateral effect of what was originally intended for control or war or both. so id say overall its pretty bad.
@@white6505 China makes you westerner slepless nights
We are definitely living in the “darkest” ages. Let’s pray that more people allow the Light of the world to penetrate their souls.
This looks like Matt Damon playing Lenin
Why did you flip that switch in my brain
Lol, now I can't stop seeing it.
I sometimes look at comments first and yeah... now it almost seems like we're being pranked by Damon. What is he up to?
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.....
I can’t hear a word he is saying now lololololo
The Middle Ages are only a "Dark Age" from a materialist and rationalist point of view. It was a cultural renaissance where the various 'barbarians' under Christian hegemony witnessed an explosion of artistic and cultural talent- Beowulf, the Song of Roland, and the Matters of Britain and France all came from this time period, and Gothic architecture rivaled or even exceeded the Romans in scale and grandeur.
Tolkien understood this better than anyone else in the modern age, which is why more emphasis is given on the 'barbarian' peoples of Middle-Earth (Rohan, Dale and Lake-Town, and the Edain of Beleriand) than on the 'civilized' peoples (ie. Elves and Numenorians).
Just one out of the innumerable reasons I adore the Legendarium.
I love the Rohirrim. The Men, the second-born of Illuvatar, are hands down the best faction in Arda.
Lol you are delusional
Not only rationalists call middle ages dark ages
Do you think times when many briliant thinkers were killed was good ages?
Beowulf or song of roland is good but compare that literature to shakespeare poems?beowulf and song of roland is nothing compare to shakespeare,dante or petrarcha poems
Or compare paintings from middle ages to renassainace paintings
Which one is better?michelangelo's highly detailed,beautiful paintings or statues or primitive christian painting?
Do you know how they treated other belivers or non religious thinkers in middle ages?they were torturing people and idiots like you sympathize this crazy years
Lol what a stupid comparision
Tolkien always said in his books elves were most beautiful,wise and strong race.also many humans forgot vallars when there was very few elves who betrayed vallars and remember that elves are immortals and they can go in valinor.only elves can go there and members of fellowship saved the middle earth and thats why they were given opportunity to travel valinor.
Also humans are influenced by elven language,elves taught humans many things
P.S.bilbo was not member of fellowship but he found the ring and he was good friend of elves thats reason why he was invited in valinor
@@rolanddeschain9880 "ThE cHuRcH kIlLeD sMaRt PeOpLe!!!1!"
Why would the Church- the same Church that _literally created the University system_ mind you- ever harm THE VENERABLE Bede, Hrosvitha, SAINT Hildegard of Bingen, SAINT Francis of Assisi, or SAINT Thomas Aquinas?
Do you remember that the whole myth that ThE cHuRcH kIlLeD sMaRt PeOpLe was invented by Woke academics as literal and unironic slander against anyone who wasn't a "Rational" Atheist?
Every teenage narcissist thinks they and their peers to be enlightened and their parents generation to be fools. Tres cringe 😤
Love your music
Love your music
also
YUH
Here’s a meaningful wave 👋 Akira.
Finally! This is why I'm getting a masters in medieval studies
Usually the type of person that refers to the middle ages as dark are generally the same nerds who love pop culture inspired by the middle ages.
Basically the type of person who thinks that Game of Thrones is an accurate portrayal of the Middle Ages.
Typically young edgy atheists.
Wildly underrated channel...
I think it’s more nuanced. Lot of art and learning died out in the upheavals and the constant barbarian invasions from the East.
But the way it’s portrayed in movies were everyone was a moron eating dirt is over the top.
The "Middle ages" were the Golden ages! the little life we still have culturally derives from those times.
Sure, they were great times if you were of noble birth.
@@badmen1550 Not really. but I won't start a ridiculous history lesson on youtube comments. Much love.
@@AprendeMovimiento Calling the Middle Ages in Europe a “Golden Age” is ridiculous, especially when compared to classical Greece, 1st century Rome, the Italian Renaissance, etc. etc.
Pageau is right that the Middle Ages get unfair treatment, but to say they were the high point of Western civilization is laughable.
@@badmen1550 stop posting cringe
@@atte2661 Brilliant insight.
preach it. I've often wished I could have been born in the so-called "dark ages". much more moral and safe time than the one we live in now
Considering the high infant mortality throughout history until the late nineteenth century, you likely would not have long enough to notice the difference.
The problem with this debate is there are a number of things people mean by the "Dark Age's". Many historians simply call it such because of the lack of written records which is undeniable.
The original meaning of the term "Dark Ages" wasn't meant literally; it was meant to refer to the relative lack of historical record from that period.
It also tended to be more specific to that early Middle Age period: roughly the 5th century to 9th century. After that there's plenty of historical record in Europe.
Even that is too vague to be accurate, as there was plenty of writing going on in Byzantium. “The Western Dark Age” would be more precise.
@@eldermillennial8330 exactly imagine the hubris needed to realize your civilization did nothing for centuries then try and project that upon the whole world. From the 5th to 9th century Byzantium produced the most profound philosophical works in history. They literally invented universities
@@alaricpalaiologos665 They didn’t ’”do nothing”.
@@Galahad_Du_Lac your people were still crapping in caves
@@alaricpalaiologos665
Paraphrasing that scene from “My Big Fat Greek Wedding”?
“My people were writing philosophy when yours were swinging from trees”, to which I always wanted to reply,
MY people were building Stonehenge, and thousands of Minhir, when yours were just trying not to get eaten by lions.
😝
The west did not fall because it went away from the east. Christendom fell at about the same time in east and west. In the east to Islam, in the west to the “reformation”. Constantinople is now Istanbul. Eastern Christianity today is pretty much just Russian. And that too is largely a very recent phenomenon thanks to the fall of communism. If it is to survive it will have to prove that it can create new ethnicities. Something it has not done since it left Rome.
Still, after the deformation the Catholic Church still managed to go and convert the Americas, but the Orthodox had it much worse i think.
Exactly, thanks for this talk.
Byzantines: We wuz kangs!
This might show my lack of I knowledge on the subject but I always thought the dark ages was a specific timeline which by little record of its history managed to survive. I had mistaken dark ages for not knowing. This should be interesting.
Why does this guy look like Lenin?
His father was Lenins step son but theres rumours Lenin was the true father
@@wiard No I made it up
someone wrote that he looks like Matt Damon dressed up as Lenin
could Lenin stll be alive?
these clips are very nice, as, sometimes, it is hard to stay focused on 30-40+ minute videos.
on another hand, there is a sudden end to the video, leaving the feeling of things left untold (literally). but there is a link to the full video, which is great!
overall very good move to make these clips!
Well it makes sense. Where would you rather flee as a Roman, to the western "barbarians" or to the east ? :)
Yves Congar mentions this in pages 39-41 of his book "After 900 Years".
Last year I gave my father The Language of Creation for fathersday, this year I will be giving him The Age of Paradise! (after he finishes them, I read them as well haha ;)
I also purchased the language of creation too. You need to read it more than once.
@@outoforbit- Yes, definitely!
You forget to mention Notre Dame Cathedral
University of Paris
University of Naples
Louis IX the Great
Thomas Aquinas
Albert the Great
Anselm of Canterbury
Scholasticism
Gothic and Gregorian chant and
Chivalry and etc...
Like half of these things would be rejected by Orthodox Christians
@@fallenstudent1103 which ones?
The post schism Western saints mostly and scholasticism obviously. Also all the things you mentioned came about after the "dark ages" as it's usually stated to have ended around the 12th century
Christus Vincit !
Ave Maria
Cor Jesu sacratissimum, miserere nobis
The dark ages was a protestant ideation. It embodied a spiritual concept where the height Roman Catholicism gripped the world in a death lock.
Is he streaming from inside his tree house? Cool
Nice.
Nice
"The West" and "Europe" are basically North European/Protestant concepts.
Each age in history has pros and cons, each system benefit some people and shadow other people, each era highlight some aspects of culture and "forget" or "sacrifice" other aspects. I'm totally sure that medieval times were the best centuries for handmade crafting, all types of arts, adventures, mysteries, spirituality and simplicity... in the other hand those were not the best times for healthcare, infraestructure, technology or freethinking... Now we are in rational and industrial times, a lot of pleasures and distraction, a lot of entertainment, but lack of sensibility, mystery, and handmade crafting, to name a few things... We must adapt ourselves to the current times, nobody can live in the past.
it was the christian east ... expanding christianity to the west ... then driven west by islam.
the dominance of islam was the dark age.
I don't know if you're a gamer, but Dark Souls is ripe with symbolism. At the end of the game, you have a choice: to keep the flame going, or begin the age of dark. Both will have drastic implications for yourself and the world. One interpretation of this, is that this is a reflection of our own circumstance. Do we keep the enlightenment going as long as possible despite its flaws? Or do we end it and venture into the unknown? There is no clear choice.
Try darkest dungeon, and listen to narrator
The irony is, the longer we keep this supposed "enlightenment" going, the darker life continues to become. No matter how much humanistic "light" we shed on the world, it is darkness compared to the light of The Word, in whom "is life, and the life is the light of men" (Jn. 1:4) that "shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it" (1:5).
@@shinigamimiroku3723 beautifully put
@@shinigamimiroku3723 the humanistic light is the Light of Lucifer
Shakespeare tried to destroy the English language
but it still sounds alot cooler then renaissaance so not only was it more enlightened, its basic names sounds better too middle ages also.
Interesting snippet. Though I don't think the doctrine of purgatory is remotely pessimistic. It's entirely optimistic surely! Most of us are not saints and yet we need not be lost. That's what purgatory means to me anyway. That - plus it's rational. Modern sensibilities are rightly offended by a dual system - saved or not saved. I think it's offensive to us because it doesn't make sense. Purgatory is a great example of the Catholic rejection of either / or in favour of both / and.
The term 'Dark Ages" means a lot of things to a lot of different people through many different periods in history with many viewpoints
I feel like Petrarch
I am thankful for being able to read, especially the scriptures for myself. But do we not see that with greater knowledge comes greater burden? That is one lesson of the Adam and Eve story. And now we in the West are all literate, and we have never been so stupid on the whole. The Renaissance was, in a way, the Endarkenment. Such is the upside down world, and it began in the 16th century.
Hey Jonathan I was unsubscribed to your channel and not by my hand.
Progressivism by design has to see an evolution to more and more intellectual understanding. Isn't it technically a heresy? Hand in hand with liberalism. We must progress to liberate all these slaves.....is the anthem. Liberation theology is condemned.
If you research the Mesopotamia age age they were said that there was never a moon
Lucifer : characterized as being the “ light “ ,, line this with his short time ,, and we get Lucy / g4ys / fruits invading the bread basket , fruits give us intoxicants , 1,000 human years is = to one god day ( Christianity is new age )
no no you see, we're the anti-bad guy squad. therefore, if you're against the anti-bad guy squad, you're a bad guy. see? look how dark you are.
It's called "dark" because of the lack of texts we have from that period. Compared to previous eras and later ones. It's not meant to mean "bad", "evil", or "backwards".
Why would you nam3 your son after someone that does something great just to be forgotten u less you want your son to do something greate and be forgotten
But isn’t there a distinction between the Dark Ages and the Middle Ages? Gothic cathedrals were a product of the Middle Ages.
The dark ages is the older name for what historians now generally call late antiquity/early medieval period. About the 6th to 9th century. So, it's part of the middle ages. Charlemagne lived in the 8th century so showing a cathedral built under his reign does fit. The whole Middle Ages is almost a thousand years from the fall of Rome in the West in 474 to the fall of Constantinople in 1453.
Then where's the history between 1400-1700? 300 years are missing. That's the real Dark Age.
How about the Protestant Reformation or the Scientific Revolution?
Sorry, but, much as I respect Jonathan's work, this is wrong. There really was a steep decline in both material wealth and high culture in the West (Spain, Italy, France, England, Germany etc.) after around 500. See Bryan Ward-Perkins' book for all the details. This lasted until around 1000, when the West really did start to take off again. The Eastern empire is more complicated, but, even there, the East, while it continued to exist in some form until the 1400s, was a much diminished thing after the rise of Islam. A figure like John of Damascus really represents a kind of end of something, and you don't see major writers and thinkers again until people like Symeon and Palamas. So, in the West, you definitely have a 500 year period of very significant diminishment, and a shorter, less pronounced, but still real decline in the East.
If by "East" you nean the Byzantine Empire, you're partly right, but to most people The East includes the Muslim world and China (Tang Dynasty) which both had Golden Ages during the Western "Dark Ages", so the old Western narrative is very Eurocentric. The idea that because Western Europe was at a low point, "The World" was at a low point is simply false. The Muslims and Chinese remained prosperous, advanced science, inventions, engineering, and technology, created new types of sophisticated art. In the High Middle Ages Western Europe started learning about Muslim and Chinese innovations, and by the Renaissance was rediscovering ancient Greek and Roman classics, and later in the modern period revised their own history and started pretending everything worthwhile had come from the West. I am old enough to remember when Western history was taught in isolation, and many books ascribed many Eastern inventions and discoveries to "Western genius"... it was a self-centered BS narrative which erased or falsified huge chapters from the complete history of the world. The motive was ideological--a way to rationalize and justify Western global empires and the general contempt Westerners had developed for non-Western civilizations.
@@illarionbykov7401 Who said anything about "the world"? C'mon.
@@thursdaythursday5884 The east is very clearly the eastern roman empire in your post
@@thursdaythursday5884 get off your high horse and re-read some older popular history books published in the US and Western Europe. For several centuries (18th, 19th, 20th) Western History in the West was taught in isolation, and the West was presented as the place where civilization started in ancient times, reached its first peak at the time of Classical Greece and Rome, then collapsed into the Dark Ages and finally was reborn during the Renaissance and reached new heights in Moderrn times, when Europeans spread the benefits of civilization to the rest of the world. Almost all important inventions and discoveries were credited to the West. The rest of the world was ignored, or presented as backwards, or behind in development, waiting patiently for Westerners to visit them and Enlighten them with advanced Western knowledge.
That's how history was presented in public schools and in popular culture and in political propaganda--The West (Western Europe and its periphery) was the Center of the World in most people's minds, later extended to Western Europe and European-settled North America while non-Western history was ignored, or downright erased, destroyed, and denied. The Byzantine Empire got no credit for preserving Greek and Roman classical knowledge and helping to spark the Renaissance, and Muslims and Chinese got minimal credit for teaching mediaeval Europeans the discoveries of the East. As recently as the late 20th century, Western schools and history documantaries taught that gunpowder and guns and printing with movable type were Western inventions. World History was divided into 3 periods: Ancient, Medieval, and Modern. It was all centred on what was happening in Europe (in ancient times) and on what was happening only in Western Europe (in medieval times) and on Western European colonization of the world (in modern times)
As recently as a decade ago I saw Western politicians and opinion makers claim that China, India, and Russia could never compete with, let alone surpass the West, because they lacked a number of special qualities which predestined Western Europeans and their descendants to always be the global leaders in science, invention, economics, and politics.
How quickky some people foget the times they lived through...
@@ryanhawkos I know. Here's the most telling quote: "The Eastern empire is more complicated, but, even there, the East, while it continued to exist in some form until the 1400s . . ."
Petrarch was a man of the church. He wrote in the 1330s - long before the Enlightenment started in the 17th century.
Whatever things looked like in Constantinople (and it did lose more than 90% of ancient literature), that doesn't change the fact of what things looked like elsewhere. And Petrarch would have been intimately aware of what had transpired in Constantinople - and of the loss of all that literature.
Gothic cathedrals developed AFTER those pagans (my Norman cousins) helped in the process that led to the recovery of ancient literature, including books on Roman engineering. And those Normans knew the value of said literature - to the point of defying Rome by taking it home with them and keeping it under their own control.
Blah blah drivel.
Most of your problem is some really weird way of talking about "light" and "dark". Is it a good thing that we have the destructive work of Plato - which influenced christianity so strongly? Is it a good thing that we have Homer and Aristotle and Euripides and Xenophon and Cicero and Sallust and so on? Or were centuries of christians right to lose more and more of it?
A fala desse senhor não tem sentido. Ele confunde "oeste" cultural e oeste geográfico. É uma fala vazia
Você estaria certo se o oeste cultural e o oeste geográfico não fossem predominantemente a mesma coisa
The eastern Christianity is the only true sequence of the first Christianity, the one with the true dogma of the Holy Trinity and not the false one of the romeocatholic church - that is a fact...
What's the difference between Catholic trinity and orthodox trinity
Its far from a fact.
You talk like ALL of the middle ages are called the dark ages, which isn't the case. The dark age is only between 625 and ca 950, where a civilisational collapse left us with little archeological evidence, and is, therefore, dark to us.
You know that people call all of the middle ages the dark age, and not the beginning of it.
@@patricksoares6253 Those people are stupid. The so called dark ages are now call late antiquity early medieval period by historians, because that's the period they referred to. The Middle Ages are the time from the fall of Rome in the West to the fall of Constantinople in the East, about a thousand years depending on how you date it. It's called middle ages because it stands in the middle of antiquity and the Renaissance, which is then followed by the modern period; the so called enlightenment actually comes after the modern period.
Learn the history of St John of the Cross! He was treated horribly by the Catholic Church!
What do you make of the Catholic church and it's horrific control and treatment of people? It seems many of the Pope's were pretty 'dark.
That's superficial, if not simply wrong. Read a bit more about the topic, and you'll realise that the Church was much better than you thought it was.
Well, the albigensian genocide qualifies by far the 13th century as a dark age in Europe. The slaughter of perhaps the most peacful and glorious culture in this part of the world is remarkable and ghastly.
The cathars is probably the purest and most exalted expression of christianity - point by point - that the world has seen since pre-nicean times.
"The catholic church only massacred two types of people: those that didn't follow the teachings of Christ and those who really did".
~ Occitan saying
"In 700 years the laurel will green once more and the good christians will return"
~ Guillaume Belibaste, the 'last' burnt cathar before facing the pyre, anno domini 1321.
honestly, bogomilstvo and catharism are one of the most horrible heresies
@@alehander42 Not around here, I think they were great and I am happy the cathars are back again.
@@Mika-El- "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world." 1 John 4:3
@@Mika-El- Calling Catharism "purest and most exalted expression of Christianity" is laughable. It is one of the most un-Christian heresies. It goes far off form the Holy Scripture. There were unecessary cruelties and French politics that happened during the Abligensian crusade (though there was no genocide there) but it is good thing that ideology became destroyed and unity of Christendom was preseved for couple of centuries, I hope it will never gain larger ground ever again. Thanks be to God for Bernard Gui. Also Occitans =/= Cathars. Raymond VI of Toulouse and most of the Occitans were good Catholics not a Cathars. Society founded on Catharism would be a nightmere. Believing that the corporeal world is evil and was made by the evil God? That sex and procreation are evil? That suicide is good? That there are two Gods? That we should get rid of the Church that Jesus established? That Jesus did not became Man? That Sacraments are evil and unecessary? How is that Christian in even a little bit? You can just imagine how many actually evil things would come out of such mindset.
@@Mika-El- "Or again, it sounds quite pious to say, “Our moral conflict should end with a victory of the spiritual over the material.” Follow it out, and you may end in the madness of the Manicheans, saying that a suicide is good because it is a sacrifice, that a sexual perversion is good because it produces no life, that the devil made the sun and moon because they are material. Then you may begin to guess why Catholicism insists that there are evil spirits as well as good; and that materials also may be sacred, as in the Incarnation or the Mass, in the sacrament of marriage or the resurrection of the body. Now there is no other corporate mind in the world that is thus on the watch to prevent minds from going wrong." ~ G. K. Chesterton
Not quite convincing. Dark ages is a very Europa-centric notion for sure, no argument here , with no regard to the flourishing Islamic culture around the primitive Christian West. However Byzantium had been constantly besieged and shrinking since the arrival of Islam in 7 century. So also from the broader Christian perspective the ages were pretty dark.
The Islamic Golden happened in areas that were already advanced like Egypt, Iraq and Persia. The backwards places of Arabia remained that way.
The Turks and Arabs were very smart in assimilating the riches of the advanced cultures they conquered.
@@gareginasatryan6761 You probably mean that Islam was flourishing on the previous achievements of Christian lands? That's true but Christians were second class citizens in Islamic lands, so the "ages" were rather "Dark" for Christians
@@gk2677 There was no "primitive Christian West", learn your history. Learn about wealth of cuture of Franks, Anglo-Saxons, Wisigoths, Normans, Copts, Assyrians, Armenians etc. and of course the Greeks and Eastern Roman Empire, the Carolingian Renasissance and Renaissance of the 12th century. And the "flourishing Islamic culture" was founded on Christian and Zoroastrian culture prevelent in the Near and Middle East, as well as knowledge gained from Indians and Chinese. Christians were also heads of the House of Wisdom in Baghdad.
Caused by the evil papacy, they were and still evil 👿
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's. clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.