I worked on switching rocker arms at Eaton Corp from 2004 to 2014. The first project I did was a dual-lift rocker arm for the Hyundai 4.6L V8, but it was not for performance, it was for fuel economy. The low lift lobe was about 156 degrees duration with 2.5 mm lift. The purpose was to reduce pumping loss by operating with the throttle wide open as much as possible during the EPA Fuel Economy test procedure. We designed and manufactured a few sets of prototype rocker arms, and Hyundai tested them, but did not continue with development, as they only saw 2.5% fuel economy improvement. Then we turned attention to deactivating rocker arms that switched between normal lift and no lift. The fuel economy improvement with these was about 5%. During the period of 2004-2014, I made a lot of prototype design proposals of dual-lift and deactivating rocker arms to other engine manufacturers such as Cummins, Ford, and Chrysler. I dimly remember doing a design study using the Coyote valvetrain geometry, but can't remember if it was the dual-lift or deactivating rocker arm. We came close to getting a production contract for a dual-lift rocker arm with Chrysler for the 3.6L V6, but lost out to a competitor. Then Chrysler ultimately decided not to go into production with it anyway. All of the engine designs I worked with were overhead cam, end-pivot roller finger follower type. We never considered doing a cam-in-block dual-lift system. I don't think there is enough room to put double or triple the cam lobes on an LS or Hemi camshaft without causing major contact stress issues with the rollers and axles. The Honda VTEC system is all slider follower, and has considerably more mass at the valve than the end-pivot assemblies we were designing at Eaton. Truth be told, an Eaton engineer has the original patent that VTEC is based on; it was patented in the early 80's. Eaton did get the dual-lift rocker arm into production with GM on the 2.5L LCV I4 (gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-engines/lcv/), but it didn't sell well and went out of production quickly. And they also got a deactivating rocker arm into production on the LGX Gen 2 High Feature V6, where deactivators were used on two cylinders to make a V4 mode. GM calls it Air-Fuel Management. GM found a system they liked better than switching rocker arms by going to axially shifting cam lobes. This system has 3 stages of lift and duration; high lift, low lift, and deactivated. It is in production on the 2.7L DI turbo I4 that is sold in the half-ton trucks. Porsche put a system called VarioCam Plus into production in the early 2000's on the 911. It was a direct-acting bucket lifter system that used three lobes for each valve. A small bucket was used on a center cam lobe for low lift, and a concentric outer bucket ran on two narrow outer lobes for high lift.
I've studied and fascinated with variable valve timing for years. Everything you said was true and I have articles saved about each. I even have articles about 6 valve per cylinder heads (Maserati). I am pissed about the new Honda Vtech systems. Those designs work for production but not for tuners like us. Hell, they don't even feature port fuel injection like Toyota does to rid of carbon buildup. What happened to Honda!?!
You would think someone who “had part in designing the technology” would at least know the correct terminology for the features you speak of. GM doesn’t have anything called “Air Fuel Management” on the LGX or any other engine for that matter. They have “Active Fuel Management” which I assume is what you were trying to say.
@@nvl2691 also if you make it almost as reliable as factory and make it a drop in swap for the s2000, I’d straight up pay you to make a second one for me.
@@benjaminreed6652 That would be the idea. Drop in, 4.0L F40C with ITBs. Bolts right on to stock transmission, obviously would need custom headers and intake system. Maybe a relocation kit for a few things here and there. I'll let you know if it is in the works :)
@@richardholdener1727 a gent made such a system for a "Horror Fright tool and equipment" Predator engine and it worked quite well, he's on his way to improvising the system for an NA Miata 1.6L engine!
@@shadowopsairman1583 I've seen you around other car channels, and if memory serves it's not always positive content. Thanks for stopping by to spread your "wisdom."
VTEC makes more sense on an application that revs really high, hence how the OHV engines had minimal gains. A ford 5.0/5.2 would benefit more due to losing more low end with cam changes.
First time i pushed my gas all the way down the rpm went straight 5k rpm really quick i was going at about like 10 mph when i did it. The engine sound pretty good
I know the Coyote doesn't change actual profiles, but definitely is close to maintaining the best power curve at whatever load and RPM changing the LSA
VVT is not VTEC. VVT does not allow for a change in duration, just a change in when the duration occurs during the engine cycle. A VVT with a 230 intake duration always has 230 intake duration. VTEC essentially allows a shift from one duration to another at a specific RPM. So you can have a 230 intake duration from idle to 4,500rpm (or really any RPM desired) and then switch to a 245 intake duration above 4,500rpm. Its long been the dream of some big duration V8 guys/gals to keep that duration without having to live with a 1,200+rpm idle and clutch slipping starts.
Vanos is like VVT or VCT which doesnt do the same as VTEC. VVT/VCT/Vanos changes the valve (cam) timing, VTEC is changing the CAM PROFILE. Two different things with DIFFERENT effects on the engine.
Richard, I'm glad someone else is talking about this. To bad anyone who would want to try it would have to design one off heads, timing cover, timing chain and gear set, cams and possibly intake for any american v8 that is commonly modified.
you wouldnt need to do so, you would just need a custom block and crank. simple enough the rest is bolting the Vtec heads on theres a guy currently building on on instagram
I can't remember his name, but there's a guy on TH-cam who's making his own FreeValve-style intake for a Miata right now, with eyes on a larger market, including V8s. If perfected, that's better than any cam-based intake
@@THESLlCK read other replies, somebody found him for me. He never perfected it but is still kinda working on it, could probably use some help if you have any skills (I do not have the skills he needs)
the way VTEC goes about switching cam profiles is totally distinct. Most variable valve-timing systems use increased oil pressure to shift the timing of the camshaft, opening the valves earlier; VTEC uses an entirely different set of cams at high RPMs. VTEC can change timing, duration and lift. It can change all 3. This is why VTEC is so special.
These have been around for awhile, they're useful for having a motor with a wilder cam be a bit more tame while you're tooling around the lot and getting in line for the strip
to be fair, this really demands DOHC. being able to have 4valves per cylinder, with different lobes for intake and exhaust. i feel like it would be difficult to implement on a pushrod engine.
true, and OEM hears you...except they go boost and small displacement, like twin turbo V6's in pickup trucks and the like. You can stop worrying about the valvetrain when a well chosen turbo or supercharger is causing 100% airflow efficiency.
It’s currently in the process of being done! If you’d like to check out more information on this for potentially a future video, his Instagram is: Neutronengines
You beat me to it, lol that was what I was going to say this thing is going to be a beast and the go to platform look out this thing is going to rip. Haha😎💪🔥
@@adamdesjarlais8183 are you high? It still uses a 3 lobe cam on the intake and exhaust side...where did you come to the conclusion that it’s not true “VTEC”? The K20a2, Z1, Z3, and K24a2 still utilizes a traditional/true VTEC head.
I was so ready to rip on you because I thought you didn't, even once, do the VTEC sound effects that must be done when talking about VTEC. I'm would have been so disappointed. But you did it, so we can still be friends. Much love dude.
5.0 Coyote is basically a vtech V8. High revving with variable valve timing that isn’t rpm limited to activate. In my 2020 with port and direct injection simply putting the car in Sport+ mode makes the cams really aggressive while normal mode they are less aggressive. These engines have Ti-VCT which is both the intake and exhaust cam that are variable.
Yes, I was thinking V8 with VTEC, fuel injection, VVT, thin piston rings for reduced friction, about 12:1 compression ratio (for pump gas), dual spark plugs, 8 oxygen sensors (to optimize each cylinder's air to fuel ratio individually real time), and variable intake runner length on a good flowing head would be awesome, but very complex. It would have to be an overhead cam. Good oil control to minimize windage. Preferably single plane crank for reduced crank weight. Then +/- forced induction. Variable header length would be cool too.
This would be significantly easier to do in a dohc motor. Cam in block motors are usually limited to variable cam phasing while OHC engines are capable of both phasing and lift variation. BMW Vanos, Honda Vtec, Mitsubishi Mivec, Toyota Vvti, Fiat MultiAir, etc. are all OHC motors. It would be awesome if the Ford Coyote had both variable cam phasing and lift on both intake and exhaust cams. I think it currently only has variable phasing.
Hey Richard did you ever complete a dyno test or comparison on the BTR equalizer manifold? I though I saw you post some pictures that you had one in the dyno room. Torn between the newer holley low ram or the btr
Koenigsegg has his " freevalve" technology and can change cam profiles electronically with the computer, without a camshaft, or valve springs, and condenses the engine substantially to make it a smaller package with a 10 to 20% weight reduction of the engine package. This guy is brilliant
BMW has had its valvetronic system for years now. Infinitely variablevalve lift. This system is combined with VANOS, their variable cam timimg system. They offer it on lots of their V8's starting with the N62 V8 that started production in 2001.
You could increase the lift and duration, getting part of the effect. Sadly though you couldn't change lsa with it. In a Honda vtec engine you could have a cam cut with two completely different profiles in it. And without the vtec solenoid controlling the oil pressure to the rocker arms, you wouldn't be able to tune it to activate at whatever rpm would be optimal, base oil pressure to the lifters would be the deciding factor in what rpm the change happens at.
I can't remember where, but someone was putting twin cam 4 cylinder heads on a small block and got it running. This was... Mid 90s if I remember correctly.
Another reason to bring back the Barra.. it'd be awesome in trucks and mustangs in aluminum of course.. the inline 6 already runs smooth. So with a ridiculous redline it'd move..
Why not circumvent VTEC altogether and go camless, with an electric solenoid actuated Valve system. Guy's here on youtube are making them with 3d printing and open source maps. Wild times.
@@PureCountryof91Laaaame. Hot rodding is all about doing wacky shit and seeing what happens, damn the reliability and cost, those went out the window long ago!
Ls would be much difficult to VTEC because of cam in the block and many more moving parts likes pushrods than double overhead cam which would allow to have more control over the valves... This can be a weekend project if some has a spare cayote.
@Donovan Piko Sorta. The LS engine was the non-VTEC option for the Integra with the GSR being the VTEC option. Though people have put VTEC heads on LS engines and CR-V engines making LS-VTEC and CRVTEC builds.
I've been thinking about that, and you'd definitely want 4 valves per cylinder (for redundancy) if it's camless. If an actuator failed and you lost your only exhaust valve in a cylinder, while the engine was running hard, it might remove it's own cylinder head in a rather violent fashion.
Someone is doing this. There’s a guy on Instagram doing a k24 vtec motor in a v8 which he calls a k48. Emilio from boosted boyz on TH-cam explained more about it on his instargram
@@johnj2496 yeah that's just a run of the mill, average 4 cylinder block from Honda with a VTEC head put onto it. I don't understand with fellow Honda enthusiasts wanting to do that considering the proper V-tec blocks are better.
@@igvtec lower compression with proper squish for a reliable turbo setup that's extremely cost-effective. Or at least it was back in the day also you can run a bit more lift on stock LS pistons compared to stock vtec pistons. also an easy way to get more displacement for the 1.6 guys going to a 1.8
@@bradleyharrell2582 was gonna say mercury has that SB4 7.0 crate engine . Which is essentially an LS7 with DOHC heads built in house . Not sure if it has variable valve timing or not
If I'm not mistaken there is still no car with Freevalve on the market. That leads me to believe that Koenigsegg abandoned it due to it not being reliable or functional. I would like to see it working. The can is the greatest parasitic power loss in a engine because it still relays on springs to bring the valves back.
@@vitor900000 I checked out their website. I get the feeling that it’s still in the development phase and has a while to go before we see it on a vehicle. They have made working prototypes but making a prototype and getting it to last a long time are two completely different things!
@@David-lr2vi Almost 6 years since it entered they "started" testing without any news about its progress. Its neat idea but as you can see in the real world hydraulics aren't used on things that require a fast response and actuation for a reason. Old is thick, sticker and heavy. In a 4 stroke engine at 7000 rpm the valve only have ~0.002s to fully extend and close. To accelerate old that fast you would need a really high pressure. Having tubes and connections that could withstand those pressures would prove a real challenge. Not only that but they would also need to strong to survive the constantly "Water hammer" effect cause the the fast opening and closing of the electronic valves. Also the electronic valves that control the oil flow would need to be very strong to be able to overcome the oil pressure.
@@vitor900000 Last that I've heard, Freevalve uses oil to lubricate the actuators and limit valve lift. The system is mostly pneumatic in opening and closing the valves. The Drive (I think) has a series on it from a few years ago, and in it, they were finishing up development on a Freevalve engine that was going to be sold by a Chinese brand in their home market.
Great vid. Doing it Honda style, where the mild cam is mild, but the VTEC cam profile is properly insane, would be mega, twice as obvious as it looks in the video. Key would then be just making the V8s happily handle the rpm the big cams can. Trying to get the best of both worlds is damn hard, but with VTEC it makes it way easier.
I believe Hyundai has something to that effect, it has variable valve timing, variable valve duration, and variable valve lift. Which I think is the lot of the variables
@@GreatLakesLogger some guy put a similar system on a harbor freight motor, and is now putting it on a miata, he says if the miata one goes well he'll work on a setup for one of the two major LS head styles.
My understanding is that the last gen Dodge Viper has variable cam/ valve timing and it's a cam in block. I can totally see this being done with a V8. Another option is to just join two K24A2 engines together.
The Viper's variable cam system is pretty neat. It's 2 camshafts nested one-inside-the-other, but it only phases the exhaust cam, advancing and retarding it as needed. It doesn't change the profile in any way, nor does it do anything with the intake portion of the camshaft.
@@cjmunnee3356 very interesting. Always wondered how it worked. Thanks for the insight. I think for a true VTec 8 banger you would need to go with dual overhead cams on each side. Would love to see something like this. Oh well. One can only wish.
What about all accessories vs two alternators regarding load / hp scavenging on motor (like running dc compressor motor, electric water pump, electric power steering, all the other normals, and two 12v batteries)? Maybe throw a few alternators one your engine dyno with 100amp draw on them for load? Also, I wonder how a turbo would spool in relation to the change of load...?
Years ago just after the Honda S2000 came out I started getting pissed off at Ford and Chevy. I was expecting a V8 answer from Detroit and all we ever got was the Coyote and it's not even close to the power per liter of the S2000 back then. What we should have right now, if Detroit was worthy, is a 5.5 liter packing 750 horses on cheap gas, and with Honda reliability.
The first S2000 was over the top. The 2.0L version had to be kept above 8000 rpm to get the power. Honda increased the displacement to 2.2 liters on later models to get better torque output at lower rpm. S2000's never impressed me much on the racetrack. Their drivers always came in the pits with eyes as big as saucers, but they were always getting passed out on the track.
There is somebody making a custom billet v8 block that will utilize the honda k series heads and i-vtec. Should be interesting to see what the engine is capable of
The svt focus had a "dual stage" intake or DSI for short that was the same thing. At 6k rpm it switched over to short runner. With a tune guys run them out to 7500 as opposed to stock 7250 and have the short runners open at 5500. Stock you can't hear it but once you're running an open element intake you can hear it switch over similar to vtec lol. I owned one for 3 years. Great cars
Bring back the Var-i-cam! it was a timing chain with a spring inside the cam's gear, so that it could alter timing until RPM reached a point of overcoming the spring and set the timing back to what the cam actually was. But we V8 guys do have VTec...its called the variable duration lifter. The Rhoads brand works better on the old musclecar grinds and their lazy ramps. It makes nearly a solid lifter click, and simply put, it has larger bleed down holes, so below 3,000 RPM it deducts valve lift by not taking up all the slack in the valvetrain. Of course this affects duration as well. Crane has their own version, neither are roller lifters so you have to take concern over zinc break-in issues. But boy does it work--my Olds 461 cid has a .490/260 duration average lift on a split cam, and I can put its manual valve body THM400 in top gear, and pull away from a dead stop to 5,500 rpm redline when the engine is warm without a burp or buck, and its a 3:1 rear gear ratio. I use an electric fuel pump, vacuum activated fuel regulator on a Q jet and captive discharge ignition. Where I think these lifters may fall flat, is an engine combo wanting to go past 6,000 RPM to get power.
@@hondatech5000 so apparently, the ceiling is near 7,000 RPM (my Olds 455 sure isn't going there). Thing is, a large displacement street engine doesn't need more than 6,000 RPM to find any torque--as you said. A small displacement four banger is going to need to get wound up like an alarm clock--that's the engine that needs VTEC. Today's variable valve timing comes in handy for fuel economy and not producing more emissions from a lot of cam overlap needed at the top end. www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/lifters/product-line/crane-hi-intensity-hydraulic-lifters
@@hondatech5000 A 5,000 RPM operating range (which is about what most street driving is done in) is a bit of a long range unless the torque curve is really flat along that gap. You come off a dead stop at idle, hopefully the gearset multiplies the acceleration enough, and your automatic transmission shifts at....maybe 5,000 RPM if you floored the gas pedal. The engine doesn't drop to idle, tho, it may be at somewhere around 3,000 RPM depending upon gear ratio spread (unless using a CVT) which is why many modern transmissions are going beyond 5 speeds now. They are trying to keep the revs low and use less gas and burn fewer emissions in the process. But some drivers just want to bury that gas pedal and hear the engine rev, a narrow powerband that can take advantage of a multigear box (consider a 14 litre diesel engine in a truck with 18 gears, most overdrives) just isn't what they want. Dz code 302's and Boss 302's had gnarly cams, way too much carb, and then there was the port size. Perhaps the best answer to "Vtec on V8" was the 1990's King of the Hill Corvette with the Mercury LT5 engine. Four valves, but two different port sizes. One small for low RPM, to keep the air flow turbulent, and then turn the valet key and the second port opens at high RPM. Installing a nasty cam on a small port head pretty much results in lousy low RPM behavior, likely why Ford didn't respond to the DZ with a stock 302 head and its valves smaller than the average Chevy small block, but a raspy cam--instead they took their 1968 Tunnel Port experiment and went the Cleveland route. of course, the real goal is filling up the cylinder. What cam does it best, and where in the RPM range does it do it. But that becomes moot when you stick a blower on. So long as the exhaust can keep up with intake flow, you're getting near 100% efficiency. Then the problem is "ok, the air's in the cylinder, how well do we burn it, and how little friction is lost?" 'cause once that piston is two inches down from TDC, combustion space is too large to matter and the piston's along for the ride until the next ignition cycle. The four cycle engine is amazing INefficient. it loses a ton of power to heat conversion, and most of its cycling isn't making any power, just moving air around.
@@hondatech5000 you are correct, its purpose is to keep a tiny displacement from being too peaky. On the street, you want that low RPM jump off the line in a truck or a luxury car...which a "granny gear" in the transmission can provide. But there's also cruising speed...you want an engine turning less than 2,000 RPM at highway speeds AND can run the AC and not bog down. I've driven older OHC four bangers that you could feel lug as soon as you turned on the AC. Plus there are the automatic transmissions, unless you have a great gear spread, how do you help that tiny engine pass a truck at 60mph? downshift two gears to get the revs up? likely you run a CVT instead, because a "hunt and peck" transmission doesn't play well on a luxury car, and today, a Hyundai is a luxury car. By that i mean, car buyers don't settle for rough running cars now--everything has to make us feel luxurious now and have all the options. Car makers are always trying to upgrade their cars into luxury levels (say the Datsun 260Z to the 300) since they make money selling options. But now car makers in america are dumping cars for cross overs. so more weight more need for torque at any RPM--more need for VTEC and turbos on tiny displacements. You are absolutely right, I don't drive nor would an S2000---I own a 1973 Honda CB four cylinder motorcycle. I don't want a four wheel motorcycle--if i want to explore 6,000-10,000 RPM, give me two wheels so I can lean and stop and not be held back by all the weight of a car, i want to feel like i really am flying. I wouldn't ever buy a rotary, either. I had a 1986 Ford turbo thunderbird, stick shift. It had an SVO intercooler in the grill, so its T3 turbo had few suds below 3,000 RPM with all that plumbing. So passing someone required a conscious thought to downshift and wait....not great when something happened right in front of me and I needed "stab and steer" power NOW like my V8 Mustang offers. but other than that? Loved that car! It was the American Porsche 944, it just needed the independent rear axle from the later Sn95 Supercoupe Thunderbird. Tiny engines are well loved in Japan, I've seen their micro cars--folks are beginning to import them here due to emissions laws. They don't have the displacement to make off-idle torque, unless they have help with the cam profile, and then the rest is using a transmission with the right gearing. If Toyota wants to return the tiny hemi engine it had in the Crown a long time ago, VTEC may be great. And they can design a 8,000 RPM engine that doesn't die by 100,000 miles. Certainly with today's tech (thinner piston rings, better motor oils, piston spraying that cools the underside of the piston) the tiny engine can last longer. But a 6 litre pushrod V8? probably doesn't need VTEC except for passing emissions and other regulations. The old maligned V8 pushrod Foxbody Mustang redlined at 4,400 RPM...but it sure kicked ass. It made its power down low, and geared appropriately. the funny thing will be electric cars. the power comes on so suddenly, those who race them on tracks have to drive differently. with a gas engine, you get on the throttle right after the apex since power has to build. do that in an electric car, and you shunt--all power is right there. you don't throttle up until the wheels are pointed where you want to go and you aren't battling the forces of inertia, since power is so sudden.
I agree I run a 427 in my ute, wonder how much better it would be with vtec? 2 cams profiles couldn’t be a bad idea. You lose that cam rock and grunt at idle but gains on low end acceleration may be worth it.
Hyundai's continuously variable duration is much more advanced than VTEC and much easier to package for an OHV engine. Not just two profiles, but many. Lift fixed, but duration more important.
@@cjmunnee3356 Similar but different. Helical cam widens duration at max lift. The Hyundai system varies the rotational speed of the shaft compared to the rotational speed of the cam in a ratio that is not fixed. BMW's VANOS (variable duration and lift) also a lot more advanced than VTEC and allows for elimination of throttle body (but without the reliability), as does Nissan's VVEL. Engineering Explained provides a particularly good explanation of the Hyundai system, and a less easy explanation of the Nissan system. .
Get rid of the cam develop a system that uses electronic solenoids to open and close the valves as far and as long as you want. This would result in having infinite cam possibilities. This would obviously take a lot of work. Writing code to control the valve. Adjusting for mechanical lag for activation timing. Fitment to the heads. Creating a plug and play bolt on kit. Seems Like a job for one of the stand alone ecu companies. It seems simple enough so it probably exist.
For the ultimate in performance and efficiency in combustion engines, I say scrap the camshafts altogether... Use the Koenigsegg FreeValve technology along with the Nissan /Infinity variable compression technology. Boosted, of course.
Or to make it cheaper and more reliable, the Hyundai cvvd system, with the infiniti vc system like you said, and mazda skyactiv-x's spark assisted compression ignition system and oh yeah, definitely boosted 😁
So there is this game, where youc an design these things, and modify eveything called Automation. ' in there you can if you want to make a ohv v8 with vtec. which would make it easier to compare insterad of dyno graph guessing :D
So just a spit ball idea collapse the lifters at low rpm then have them pump up as rpm rises. You would need to have them hold lash but lose oil until collapse on the low profile, then block that loss as rpm increases. It would not be the exact same but it should make some difference.
6200rpm limiter, 0-100 in 7.5 seconds in a 3 ton car shaped like a house, quad cam, variable cam timing,direct injection. 300kw and 560nm 5.6 litre 54hp per litre?
@@DarrenBoxhall 75+ hp per litre is "decent" and 100+ hp per litre is good, by example honda's k20 makes 100hp per liter, toyota also offers 100hp per litre engines, nissan offers them too, even ford has a 526hp 5.2L n/a v8 without VVL 🤷♂️
VTEC, VVT very cool. Have you ever done many tests on a 3.5 ecoboost? I have a 2011 F150 and after 180000 miles this thing pulls like a freight train for only a little over 200 cubes. Thanks for your videos and all the tech talk. Very educational.
Was the system called Valvtronic? If so, that only (but continuously) varies lift. Not duration. They have another system called VANOS that continuously phases (advances and retards) the camshaft, making it a standard VCT system.
I built a couple B-Series engines and loved the tech, built many many more V8s and even an LT seems like tractor tech comparatively, always wondered when someone would catch on to this.
Toyota & Nissan , both made V8 engines with VVT VVL . They started production about 25 years ago. If you start looking you will find some boosted engines makeing good power. If you compared a 3uz Toyota & a VK56 Nissan to a LS of similar size , I think the results would be very interesting.
@@jamesgeorge6551 Yup. The 5th-gen Viper uses it. It's called Cam-In-Cam. The Viper engine uses it to phase the exhaust part, but sadly not the intake. MOPAR had trouble getting a dual phaser to work, I think. (Edited for spelling)
@@cjmunnee3356 But not the Hemi, from what I can tell. Chrysler has enough trouble keeping lifters and cam lobes alive without cam-in-cam in Hemi engines.
Richard, the Cadillac Northstar engine had DOHC heads and got independent intake and exhaust cam timing toward the end of production. Yes it was the same profile but it gave the best results short of two profiles. It also came supercharged! The Northstar was an engineering marvel, but had one major issue that shortened the production life: Head bolt thread failure. That was from a combination of engineering miscalculation and production quality of the aluminum/casting process. By 2006-2008 the factory had mostly solved that issue, but the reputation of the Northstar was ruined by then. Maybe you could do some Northstar dyno testing? That would be the other guy’s other guy's engine!
@@MrMikucki lmao, while probability is on your side, that's still a rather pretentious and myopic statement to make of a person you know little to nothing about. Stay humble my friend. You won't look so foolish that way.
Cruising from a 196° dur to a 280°dur @ 5252rpm and holding out to 9500rpm on a 2 litre Is a feeling that can't be explained.(my exact b20vtec set up before I began boosting it, still sitting in my garage at the moment) But having that on 4.8, 5.7 or 6.2 would be considered a time machine
See, this is why I always get sad to see that Honda never mass produced a VTEC V8, or any V8 for that matter. Yes, I realize they had V8s in IndyCar, but they weren't mass produced. Obviously Nissan and Toyota made PLENTY of V8s and they're all very powerful well-balanced engines.
I'm pretty sure VVEL only varies lift. While VTEC is a 2-step (I believe there's a 3-step version that's at least theoretical), It changes the entire lobe profile. Both systems can be combined with cam-phasing for even more fun.
@@ToprankImporters Yup. I left out the cam-phasing part, because that part of the system is pretty ubiquitous in various forms on DOHC engines today. The variable lift system is the only part I was comparing to VTEC. Sorry for any confusion.
Two spots where you could waste the motion of a large cam to make it act smaller would be the lifters and the rocker arms. The lifters could have a significant amount of hydraulic + spring slack. At the appropriate rpm an oil passage with a locking pin could take up slack. Basically a bad hydraulic lifter that turns into a solid lifter at higher rpm.
But have modern engine often have something like vtec but smoother that you not feel it. Besides I also think this is a grate idea. Personally I would want a real honda V6 VTEC.
Nissan's VK56VD (5.6L V8) has VVEL which means Variable Valve Event & Lift. Almost VTEC just no change in duration. An Infiniti QX80 is rated 400HP, 413lb-ft.
@@ripcut28 Has it's own issues. With a mechanical cam you recover a lot of the horsepower required to open the valves, when the spring is pushing against the down ramp. Freevalve does not allow for that AFAIK.
Porsche did it with their 4.8l direct injection engines on the Panamera and Cayenne GTS/Turbo, Variocam+. They added intake lift and changed cam timing when the sport button was pressed. The only drawbacks were it didn’t change intake/exhaust independently and they weren’t that aggressive with lift changes. Same technology that the flat 6’s use in the 911’s
@@richardholdener1727 ever Heard of VarioCam by Porsche that’s Vanos and VTec combined. Wake up VTec is fucking old technology. Literally even Golfs unse a combination of Vanos and VTec
Can you run a test with Rhodes Variable Lifters? I have a 363 on an engine stand with a Crane custom HR and those lifters. I used a professional engine software to simulate my build and was pleased.
I think as things progress and they look for more and more out of gas engines they'll move towards a Vtec type system. Probably not quite as much for overall power, but so it can have a low power high efficiency cam that could then switch to a more normal cam. But, once they develop that system it'd be pretty easy for the aftermarket to come in with more ideal power cams.
![105kg, 500HP, 10,500RPM ‘Hayabusa’ V8 | Radical Sportscars RPE-V8 [TECH TALK]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZX4TR6SgRRY/mqdefault.jpg)
"There are two types of people. V8 people and Vtec people"
*Sad Wankel noises*
You guys get lumped in with the vtec guys lol
I mean.. rotary's are sadly not known for longevity..
@@PureCountryof91 I mean if you use the right oils they'll live just as long as you want them to!
@@PureCountryof91 thats 30 year old bs. A properly built and matained rotory is pretty reliable
Apex seals for your apex pleasure.....
I worked on switching rocker arms at Eaton Corp from 2004 to 2014. The first project I did was a dual-lift rocker arm for the Hyundai 4.6L V8, but it was not for performance, it was for fuel economy. The low lift lobe was about 156 degrees duration with 2.5 mm lift. The purpose was to reduce pumping loss by operating with the throttle wide open as much as possible during the EPA Fuel Economy test procedure. We designed and manufactured a few sets of prototype rocker arms, and Hyundai tested them, but did not continue with development, as they only saw 2.5% fuel economy improvement. Then we turned attention to deactivating rocker arms that switched between normal lift and no lift. The fuel economy improvement with these was about 5%. During the period of 2004-2014, I made a lot of prototype design proposals of dual-lift and deactivating rocker arms to other engine manufacturers such as Cummins, Ford, and Chrysler. I dimly remember doing a design study using the Coyote valvetrain geometry, but can't remember if it was the dual-lift or deactivating rocker arm. We came close to getting a production contract for a dual-lift rocker arm with Chrysler for the 3.6L V6, but lost out to a competitor. Then Chrysler ultimately decided not to go into production with it anyway.
All of the engine designs I worked with were overhead cam, end-pivot roller finger follower type. We never considered doing a cam-in-block dual-lift system. I don't think there is enough room to put double or triple the cam lobes on an LS or Hemi camshaft without causing major contact stress issues with the rollers and axles. The Honda VTEC system is all slider follower, and has considerably more mass at the valve than the end-pivot assemblies we were designing at Eaton. Truth be told, an Eaton engineer has the original patent that VTEC is based on; it was patented in the early 80's.
Eaton did get the dual-lift rocker arm into production with GM on the 2.5L LCV I4 (gmauthority.com/blog/gm/gm-engines/lcv/), but it didn't sell well and went out of production quickly.
And they also got a deactivating rocker arm into production on the LGX Gen 2 High Feature V6, where deactivators were used on two cylinders to make a V4 mode. GM calls it Air-Fuel Management.
GM found a system they liked better than switching rocker arms by going to axially shifting cam lobes. This system has 3 stages of lift and duration; high lift, low lift, and deactivated. It is in production on the 2.7L DI turbo I4 that is sold in the half-ton trucks.
Porsche put a system called VarioCam Plus into production in the early 2000's on the 911. It was a direct-acting bucket lifter system that used three lobes for each valve. A small bucket was used on a center cam lobe for low lift, and a concentric outer bucket ran on two narrow outer lobes for high lift.
Thanks for sharing. Cool information. 👍
👍👍👍
I've studied and fascinated with variable valve timing for years. Everything you said was true and I have articles saved about each. I even have articles about 6 valve per cylinder heads (Maserati). I am pissed about the new Honda Vtech systems. Those designs work for production but not for tuners like us. Hell, they don't even feature port fuel injection like Toyota does to rid of carbon buildup. What happened to Honda!?!
Thanks Andy Harman !
You would think someone who “had part in designing the technology” would at least know the correct terminology for the features you speak of. GM doesn’t have anything called “Air Fuel Management” on the LGX or any other engine for that matter. They have “Active Fuel Management” which I assume is what you were trying to say.
I’ve always wanted to turn 2 f20c’s into a v8
I might do that as my university project hahaha, it's on the list.
honda v8 indy engine
@@nvl2691 if you do I wanna see videos. That’d be so sick
@@nvl2691 also if you make it almost as reliable as factory and make it a drop in swap for the s2000, I’d straight up pay you to make a second one for me.
@@benjaminreed6652 That would be the idea. Drop in, 4.0L F40C with ITBs. Bolts right on to stock transmission, obviously would need custom headers and intake system. Maybe a relocation kit for a few things here and there. I'll let you know if it is in the works :)
*Christian Von Koenigsegg has entered the chat*
the free valve stuff is cool
@@richardholdener1727 a gent made such a system for a "Horror Fright tool and equipment" Predator engine and it worked quite well, he's on his way to improvising the system for an NA Miata 1.6L engine!
You Wish
@@shadowopsairman1583 I've seen you around other car channels, and if memory serves it's not always positive content. Thanks for stopping by to spread your "wisdom."
The Chiron has VVT
VTEC makes more sense on an application that revs really high, hence how the OHV engines had minimal gains. A ford 5.0/5.2 would benefit more due to losing more low end with cam changes.
I dunno man, first time I hear a v8 guy say "vtec kicked in yo"; hands might get thrown.
I said that before when I floored my yukon and it down shifted and revved higher haha
@@trashbandit2449 alright, the fight is on then. how are we going to determine which one of us brings the donuts though?
@@StevenAndrews whoever loses
I mean, you'll have to catch him first haha
First time i pushed my gas all the way down the rpm went straight 5k rpm really quick i was going at about like 10 mph when i did it. The engine sound pretty good
I know the Coyote doesn't change actual profiles, but definitely is close to maintaining the best power curve at whatever load and RPM changing the LSA
The ford voodoo engine or the koenigsegg engine are probably the closest thing we have to a v8 VTEC currently.
Bro LS has a type vtec just not as much oil pressure driven
VVT is not VTEC. VVT does not allow for a change in duration, just a change in when the duration occurs during the engine cycle. A VVT with a 230 intake duration always has 230 intake duration. VTEC essentially allows a shift from one duration to another at a specific RPM. So you can have a 230 intake duration from idle to 4,500rpm (or really any RPM desired) and then switch to a 245 intake duration above 4,500rpm.
Its long been the dream of some big duration V8 guys/gals to keep that duration without having to live with a 1,200+rpm idle and clutch slipping starts.
Bmw owners laughs in vanos
@@LS_Sauceboss Bro no it dont
Vanos is like VVT or VCT which doesnt do the same as VTEC. VVT/VCT/Vanos changes the valve (cam) timing, VTEC is changing the CAM PROFILE. Two different things with DIFFERENT effects on the engine.
Koenigsegg Free Valve! Would love to see that on an LS
Agreed! Doesn't even need a throttle to control engine speed. Cam swap with a key stroke!
O M G....THAT would be awesome!
There’s to much LS stuff let’s see it on a different v8
@@jamesh5111 all the other v8's are garbage. might aswell make the best, better.
@@MrMikucki an LS motor is just the Chevy version of a Ford Windsor. Chevy just copied it and did there own thing
Richard, I'm glad someone else is talking about this. To bad anyone who would want to try it would have to design one off heads, timing cover, timing chain and gear set, cams and possibly intake for any american v8 that is commonly modified.
you wouldnt need to do so, you would just need a custom block and crank. simple enough the rest is bolting the Vtec heads on
theres a guy currently building on on instagram
vtec kicked in yo!
whole new world in this application.
I can't remember his name, but there's a guy on TH-cam who's making his own FreeValve-style intake for a Miata right now, with eyes on a larger market, including V8s. If perfected, that's better than any cam-based intake
This one maybe?
th-cam.com/users/WesleyKagan
@@espenschjelderup426 yep that's him
@@krakhedd who
@@THESLlCK read other replies, somebody found him for me. He never perfected it but is still kinda working on it, could probably use some help if you have any skills (I do not have the skills he needs)
@@krakhedd found it, wesley kagan. He's still working on it but he built an open wheel V12 car in the meantime
the way VTEC goes about switching cam profiles is totally distinct. Most variable valve-timing systems use increased oil pressure to shift the timing of the camshaft, opening the valves earlier; VTEC uses an entirely different set of cams at high RPMs. VTEC can change timing, duration and lift. It can change all 3. This is why VTEC is so special.
There was a company making a mechanical variable valve lift fir Pontiac’s around the mud 2000’s. It used oil pressure to change the rocket arm ratio.
These have been around for awhile, they're useful for having a motor with a wilder cam be a bit more tame while you're tooling around the lot and getting in line for the strip
Majority do it that way.
Can we get a link to information?
Had this idea 30 years ago, wanted to do this to the ford 460! Was going machine this from a billit of aluminum...
You'd certainly have the deck width.. 🤔
to be fair, this really demands DOHC. being able to have 4valves per cylinder, with different lobes for intake and exhaust. i feel like it would be difficult to implement on a pushrod engine.
@@neverknowsbest4994 I had no intention to use push rods ... Timing belts for each side. Among other ideas I won't mention here.
The Subaru EZ30R has VCT and VVL. Kind of a crazy setup in those heads I imagine.
I have an alternative solution
Boost and displacement
Ahaha yes I agree
or all 3 together
@@uglyjihad i see you think smart
true, and OEM hears you...except they go boost and small displacement, like twin turbo V6's in pickup trucks and the like. You can stop worrying about the valvetrain when a well chosen turbo or supercharger is causing 100% airflow efficiency.
= Supercars
It’s currently in the process of being done! If you’d like to check out more information on this for potentially a future video, his Instagram is: Neutronengines
is that the guys that are making a k series v8 ?
@@romandred8984 that is literally what my comment says.
You beat me to it, lol that was what I was going to say this thing is going to be a beast and the go to platform look out this thing is going to rip. Haha😎💪🔥
Ivtec isn't true vtec. I talked to the guy. He originally wanted to do an h22. I told him if the k series v8 takes off he needs to do an h22 v8 next
@@adamdesjarlais8183 are you high? It still uses a 3 lobe cam on the intake and exhaust side...where did you come to the conclusion that it’s not true “VTEC”? The K20a2, Z1, Z3, and K24a2 still utilizes a traditional/true VTEC head.
It's V8 sacrilege!
I'll take 10
I was so ready to rip on you because I thought you didn't, even once, do the VTEC sound effects that must be done when talking about VTEC. I'm would have been so disappointed. But you did it, so we can still be friends. Much love dude.
waaaaaa...WAAAAAAAAAAAA
Even just DOHC and VVT would be pretty good for a V8, honestly. Little bit simpler and still gets you good bottom and top end power.
5.0 Coyote is basically a vtech V8. High revving with variable valve timing that isn’t rpm limited to activate. In my 2020 with port and direct injection simply putting the car in Sport+ mode makes the cams really aggressive while normal mode they are less aggressive. These engines have Ti-VCT which is both the intake and exhaust cam that are variable.
that is VVT-which is not VTEC
Yes, I was thinking V8 with VTEC, fuel injection, VVT, thin piston rings for reduced friction, about 12:1 compression ratio (for pump gas), dual spark plugs, 8 oxygen sensors (to optimize each cylinder's air to fuel ratio individually real time), and variable intake runner length on a good flowing head would be awesome, but very complex. It would have to be an overhead cam. Good oil control to minimize windage. Preferably single plane crank for reduced crank weight. Then +/- forced induction. Variable header length would be cool too.
This would be significantly easier to do in a dohc motor. Cam in block motors are usually limited to variable cam phasing while OHC engines are capable of both phasing and lift variation. BMW Vanos, Honda Vtec, Mitsubishi Mivec, Toyota Vvti, Fiat MultiAir, etc. are all OHC motors.
It would be awesome if the Ford Coyote had both variable cam phasing and lift on both intake and exhaust cams. I think it currently only has variable phasing.
8500 rpm gt350 with vtec would be the most amazing thing
Hey Richard did you ever complete a dyno test or comparison on the BTR equalizer manifold? I though I saw you post some pictures that you had one in the dyno room. Torn between the newer holley low ram or the btr
That would be cool! But it would be even cooler if we just FreeValve everything!
Free valve ls would be awesome , all the cams you want at a push of a button
Pretty sure it was in trucking magazine when I was a kid that was an article about a 350 small block with electric valves
Wesley Kagen is building a freevalve Miata on his channel.
@@zd302gt He's making decent progress too! 3D printing has been a big time saver for him
Koenigsegg has his " freevalve" technology and can change cam profiles electronically with the computer, without a camshaft, or valve springs, and condenses the engine substantially to make it a smaller package with a 10 to 20% weight reduction of the engine package.
This guy is brilliant
Thats' a great combo, if you wanna put your mechanics kids through college.
lol
BMW has had its valvetronic system for years now. Infinitely variablevalve lift. This system is combined with VANOS, their variable cam timimg system. They offer it on lots of their V8's starting with the N62 V8 that started production in 2001.
BMW was a pioneer here, Nissan kinda copied it with VVEL
but no change in duration
Richard,,Would Rhoades Vmax lifters achieve these results? That would be a great dyno test.
Crane hi intensity lifters are another choice for the same variable lift effect. I believe you get full lift and duration around 2500 rpms.
You could increase the lift and duration, getting part of the effect. Sadly though you couldn't change lsa with it. In a Honda vtec engine you could have a cam cut with two completely different profiles in it. And without the vtec solenoid controlling the oil pressure to the rocker arms, you wouldn't be able to tune it to activate at whatever rpm would be optimal, base oil pressure to the lifters would be the deciding factor in what rpm the change happens at.
1uz-fe ? I know its not vtec but the late ones have toyota's equivalent and I'm sure there's other Japanese visitors with vvt and vvl
I can't remember where, but someone was putting twin cam 4 cylinder heads on a small block and got it running. This was... Mid 90s if I remember correctly.
Guys used to do it with big block Chevy and Porsche 928 heads
Pete Ardema did those-he came to Westech a few times
The ZR-1 was based off of the small block V8. It wasn’t that difficult
@@whodahellru8124 the zr1 dohc was a lotus engine design
solenoid controlled valves for the win, full control of valve lift and duration all the time is the ultimate!
YES
No valved two stroke!
Free valve.
V8 with VTEC tecnology would be cool
If only Honda made a truck with a v8 and vtec so we could just go to junk yards and pull them out
I heard the 5.0 coyote has the kinda the same concept
check out neutronengines on ig then
I remember talking about this with my buddy back in 2007. How cool would it be to have a modular V8 with VTEC? TiVCT is the best us Ford guys get
Another reason to bring back the Barra.. it'd be awesome in trucks and mustangs in aluminum of course.. the inline 6 already runs smooth. So with a ridiculous redline it'd move..
Why not circumvent VTEC altogether and go camless, with an electric solenoid actuated Valve system. Guy's here on youtube are making them with 3d printing and open source maps. Wild times.
Fiat has that system in the abarth.
Solenoid cycle limits. And the cost to make the solenoids reliable enough and inexpensive enough for profitable mass production..
@@PureCountryof91Laaaame. Hot rodding is all about doing wacky shit and seeing what happens, damn the reliability and cost, those went out the window long ago!
F1 was using pneumatic valve return system valvetrains almost 30 years ago.
Can't wait for the vvt video
Life is full of "What If's"
Ls would be much difficult to VTEC because of cam in the block and many more moving parts likes pushrods than double overhead cam which would allow to have more control over the valves... This can be a weekend project if some has a spare cayote.
Mercury Racing sells a DOHC version of the LS7. They call it the SB4 7.0. That would be SIIIICK with VTEC.
Does this turn the Chevy LS motor into the Chevy GSR motor?
(Honda/Integra people will get it!)
@Donovan Piko Sorta. The LS engine was the non-VTEC option for the Integra with the GSR being the VTEC option. Though people have put VTEC heads on LS engines and CR-V engines making LS-VTEC and CRVTEC builds.
@Donovan Piko Correct. My joke though is the VTEC version of the Chevy LS would thus be the Chevy GSR.
I like B18 guy
If free valve technology keeps going I could absolutely see an LS application. Then you could play with timing, lift and duration. Would be amazing.
would it be an LS tho?
I've been thinking about that, and you'd definitely want 4 valves per cylinder (for redundancy) if it's camless. If an actuator failed and you lost your only exhaust valve in a cylinder, while the engine was running hard, it might remove it's own cylinder head in a rather violent fashion.
@@johnnysodak7261 It'd be more of a Mercury Racing SB4 at that point.
Someone is doing this. There’s a guy on Instagram doing a k24 vtec motor in a v8 which he calls a k48. Emilio from boosted boyz on TH-cam explained more about it on his instargram
Prayoonto
Yeah Neutron Engines is engineering the motor.
You're gonna make the LS guys hemorrhage with this video.
i'm a ls guy i would love to have vtec on my ls or 350. more power and more mpg its a win win.
honda guys have had ls vtecs for years
but it just a ls block with swaped vtec head zonk
Haha.👍
@@johnj2496 yeah that's just a run of the mill, average 4 cylinder block from Honda with a VTEC head put onto it. I don't understand with fellow Honda enthusiasts wanting to do that considering the proper V-tec blocks are better.
@@igvtec lower compression with proper squish for a reliable turbo setup that's extremely cost-effective. Or at least it was back in the day also you can run a bit more lift on stock LS pistons compared to stock vtec pistons. also an easy way to get more displacement for the 1.6 guys going to a 1.8
The guy that could make a kit for the sbc or ls would make loot.
Erm Gen 4 SBC and I believe Gen 5 SBC has it.
@@shadowopsairman1583 Those systems just advance and retard cam timing, not changing lift or duration.
Hell yeah , Mercury already has dual overhead cam heads for the LS's just need to find a way to add vtec to it.
@@bradleyharrell2582 was gonna say mercury has that SB4 7.0 crate engine . Which is essentially an LS7 with DOHC heads built in house . Not sure if it has variable valve timing or not
@@ab-cd456 thank you! You have 2 systems: cam phasing variable valve timing and cam changing variable valve timing.
Well there you go . I always thought vtec was just timing related . Learning over here !
Better still. An LS engine with Freevalve! Moar powa!
Gen 4 SBC and Gen 5 SBC.
If I'm not mistaken there is still no car with Freevalve on the market. That leads me to believe that Koenigsegg abandoned it due to it not being reliable or functional.
I would like to see it working. The can is the greatest parasitic power loss in a engine because it still relays on springs to bring the valves back.
@@vitor900000 I checked out their website. I get the feeling that it’s still in the development phase and has a while to go before we see it on a vehicle. They have made working prototypes but making a prototype and getting it to last a long time are two completely different things!
@@David-lr2vi Almost 6 years since it entered they "started" testing without any news about its progress.
Its neat idea but as you can see in the real world hydraulics aren't used on things that require a fast response and actuation for a reason.
Old is thick, sticker and heavy. In a 4 stroke engine at 7000 rpm the valve only have ~0.002s to fully extend and close.
To accelerate old that fast you would need a really high pressure. Having tubes and connections that could withstand those pressures would prove a real challenge. Not only that but they would also need to strong to survive the constantly "Water hammer" effect cause the the fast opening and closing of the electronic valves.
Also the electronic valves that control the oil flow would need to be very strong to be able to overcome the oil pressure.
@@vitor900000 Last that I've heard, Freevalve uses oil to lubricate the actuators and limit valve lift. The system is mostly pneumatic in opening and closing the valves. The Drive (I think) has a series on it from a few years ago, and in it, they were finishing up development on a Freevalve engine that was going to be sold by a Chinese brand in their home market.
Great vid.
Doing it Honda style, where the mild cam is mild, but the VTEC cam profile is properly insane, would be mega, twice as obvious as it looks in the video. Key would then be just making the V8s happily handle the rpm the big cams can.
Trying to get the best of both worlds is damn hard, but with VTEC it makes it way easier.
Fully variable valve train takes it all another step further.
I believe Hyundai has something to that effect, it has variable valve timing, variable valve duration, and variable valve lift. Which I think is the lot of the variables
Koenigsegg free valve. Allows them to make 600hp out of a sequential turbo 1.0 liter inline 3cyl. Check it out sometime.
@@GreatLakesLogger some guy put a similar system on a harbor freight motor, and is now putting it on a miata, he says if the miata one goes well he'll work on a setup for one of the two major LS head styles.
@@Prestiged_peck Wesley whatshisname. Just saw his f1 build from a Porsche Boxster. Had to subscribe after seeing that.
@@Prestiged_peck of course I shouldve checked the comments before I posted the exact same stuff. Haha I love this!
This is beyond level of ideas
My understanding is that the last gen Dodge Viper has variable cam/ valve timing and it's a cam in block. I can totally see this being done with a V8. Another option is to just join two K24A2 engines together.
Two H22A4’s they’re practically the big block of Honda
The Viper's variable cam system is pretty neat. It's 2 camshafts nested one-inside-the-other, but it only phases the exhaust cam, advancing and retarding it as needed. It doesn't change the profile in any way, nor does it do anything with the intake portion of the camshaft.
@@cjmunnee3356 very interesting. Always wondered how it worked. Thanks for the insight. I think for a true VTec 8 banger you would need to go with dual overhead cams on each side. Would love to see something like this. Oh well. One can only wish.
What about all accessories vs two alternators regarding load / hp scavenging on motor (like running dc compressor motor, electric water pump, electric power steering, all the other normals, and two 12v batteries)? Maybe throw a few alternators one your engine dyno with 100amp draw on them for load? Also, I wonder how a turbo would spool in relation to the change of load...?
That would be awesome! Might be possible on a coyote. Extra cool with vtc.
Years ago just after the Honda S2000 came out I started getting pissed off at Ford and Chevy. I was expecting a V8 answer from Detroit and all we ever got was the Coyote and it's not even close to the power per liter of the S2000 back then. What we should have right now, if Detroit was worthy, is a 5.5 liter packing 750 horses on cheap gas, and with Honda reliability.
The first S2000 was over the top. The 2.0L version had to be kept above 8000 rpm to get the power. Honda increased the displacement to 2.2 liters on later models to get better torque output at lower rpm. S2000's never impressed me much on the racetrack. Their drivers always came in the pits with eyes as big as saucers, but they were always getting passed out on the track.
There is somebody making a custom billet v8 block that will utilize the honda k series heads and i-vtec. Should be interesting to see what the engine is capable of
Link please.
The later model Aussie Ford straight 6's use a dual length intake manifold that works very well.
The svt focus had a "dual stage" intake or DSI for short that was the same thing. At 6k rpm it switched over to short runner. With a tune guys run them out to 7500 as opposed to stock 7250 and have the short runners open at 5500. Stock you can't hear it but once you're running an open element intake you can hear it switch over similar to vtec lol. I owned one for 3 years. Great cars
Bring back the Var-i-cam! it was a timing chain with a spring inside the cam's gear, so that it could alter timing until RPM reached a point of overcoming the spring and set the timing back to what the cam actually was. But we V8 guys do have VTec...its called the variable duration lifter.
The Rhoads brand works better on the old musclecar grinds and their lazy ramps. It makes nearly a solid lifter click, and simply put, it has larger bleed down holes, so below 3,000 RPM it deducts valve lift by not taking up all the slack in the valvetrain. Of course this affects duration as well. Crane has their own version, neither are roller lifters so you have to take concern over zinc break-in issues.
But boy does it work--my Olds 461 cid has a .490/260 duration average lift on a split cam, and I can put its manual valve body THM400 in top gear, and pull away from a dead stop to 5,500 rpm redline when the engine is warm without a burp or buck, and its a 3:1 rear gear ratio. I use an electric fuel pump, vacuum activated fuel regulator on a Q jet and captive discharge ignition.
Where I think these lifters may fall flat, is an engine combo wanting to go past 6,000 RPM to get power.
@@hondatech5000 whu?
@@hondatech5000 so apparently, the ceiling is near 7,000 RPM (my Olds 455 sure isn't going there). Thing is, a large displacement street engine doesn't need more than 6,000 RPM to find any torque--as you said. A small displacement four banger is going to need to get wound up like an alarm clock--that's the engine that needs VTEC. Today's variable valve timing comes in handy for fuel economy and not producing more emissions from a lot of cam overlap needed at the top end.
www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/lifters/product-line/crane-hi-intensity-hydraulic-lifters
@@hondatech5000 A 5,000 RPM operating range (which is about what most street driving is done in) is a bit of a long range unless the torque curve is really flat along that gap. You come off a dead stop at idle, hopefully the gearset multiplies the acceleration enough, and your automatic transmission shifts at....maybe 5,000 RPM if you floored the gas pedal. The engine doesn't drop to idle, tho, it may be at somewhere around 3,000 RPM depending upon gear ratio spread (unless using a CVT) which is why many modern transmissions are going beyond 5 speeds now. They are trying to keep the revs low and use less gas and burn fewer emissions in the process. But some drivers just want to bury that gas pedal and hear the engine rev, a narrow powerband that can take advantage of a multigear box (consider a 14 litre diesel engine in a truck with 18 gears, most overdrives) just isn't what they want.
Dz code 302's and Boss 302's had gnarly cams, way too much carb, and then there was the port size. Perhaps the best answer to "Vtec on V8" was the 1990's King of the Hill Corvette with the Mercury LT5 engine. Four valves, but two different port sizes. One small for low RPM, to keep the air flow turbulent, and then turn the valet key and the second port opens at high RPM. Installing a nasty cam on a small port head pretty much results in lousy low RPM behavior, likely why Ford didn't respond to the DZ with a stock 302 head and its valves smaller than the average Chevy small block, but a raspy cam--instead they took their 1968 Tunnel Port experiment and went the Cleveland route.
of course, the real goal is filling up the cylinder. What cam does it best, and where in the RPM range does it do it. But that becomes moot when you stick a blower on. So long as the exhaust can keep up with intake flow, you're getting near 100% efficiency. Then the problem is "ok, the air's in the cylinder, how well do we burn it, and how little friction is lost?" 'cause once that piston is two inches down from TDC, combustion space is too large to matter and the piston's along for the ride until the next ignition cycle.
The four cycle engine is amazing INefficient. it loses a ton of power to heat conversion, and most of its cycling isn't making any power, just moving air around.
@@hondatech5000 you are correct, its purpose is to keep a tiny displacement from being too peaky. On the street, you want that low RPM jump off the line in a truck or a luxury car...which a "granny gear" in the transmission can provide. But there's also cruising speed...you want an engine turning less than 2,000 RPM at highway speeds AND can run the AC and not bog down. I've driven older OHC four bangers that you could feel lug as soon as you turned on the AC. Plus there are the automatic transmissions, unless you have a great gear spread, how do you help that tiny engine pass a truck at 60mph? downshift two gears to get the revs up? likely you run a CVT instead, because a "hunt and peck" transmission doesn't play well on a luxury car, and today, a Hyundai is a luxury car.
By that i mean, car buyers don't settle for rough running cars now--everything has to make us feel luxurious now and have all the options. Car makers are always trying to upgrade their cars into luxury levels (say the Datsun 260Z to the 300) since they make money selling options. But now car makers in america are dumping cars for cross overs. so more weight more need for torque at any RPM--more need for VTEC and turbos on tiny displacements.
You are absolutely right, I don't drive nor would an S2000---I own a 1973 Honda CB four cylinder motorcycle. I don't want a four wheel motorcycle--if i want to explore 6,000-10,000 RPM, give me two wheels so I can lean and stop and not be held back by all the weight of a car, i want to feel like i really am flying. I wouldn't ever buy a rotary, either. I had a 1986 Ford turbo thunderbird, stick shift. It had an SVO intercooler in the grill, so its T3 turbo had few suds below 3,000 RPM with all that plumbing. So passing someone required a conscious thought to downshift and wait....not great when something happened right in front of me and I needed "stab and steer" power NOW like my V8 Mustang offers.
but other than that? Loved that car! It was the American Porsche 944, it just needed the independent rear axle from the later Sn95 Supercoupe Thunderbird.
Tiny engines are well loved in Japan, I've seen their micro cars--folks are beginning to import them here due to emissions laws. They don't have the displacement to make off-idle torque, unless they have help with the cam profile, and then the rest is using a transmission with the right gearing. If Toyota wants to return the tiny hemi engine it had in the Crown a long time ago, VTEC may be great. And they can design a 8,000 RPM engine that doesn't die by 100,000 miles. Certainly with today's tech (thinner piston rings, better motor oils, piston spraying that cools the underside of the piston) the tiny engine can last longer.
But a 6 litre pushrod V8? probably doesn't need VTEC except for passing emissions and other regulations. The old maligned V8 pushrod Foxbody Mustang redlined at 4,400 RPM...but it sure kicked ass. It made its power down low, and geared appropriately.
the funny thing will be electric cars. the power comes on so suddenly, those who race them on tracks have to drive differently. with a gas engine, you get on the throttle right after the apex since power has to build. do that in an electric car, and you shunt--all power is right there. you don't throttle up until the wheels are pointed where you want to go and you aren't battling the forces of inertia, since power is so sudden.
I agree I run a 427 in my ute, wonder how much better it would be with vtec? 2 cams profiles couldn’t be a bad idea. You lose that cam rock and grunt at idle but gains on low end acceleration may be worth it.
Hyundai's continuously variable duration is much more advanced than VTEC and much easier to package for an OHV engine. Not just two profiles, but many. Lift fixed, but duration more important.
Is that anything like the helical-cam?
@@cjmunnee3356 Similar but different. Helical cam widens duration at max lift. The Hyundai system varies the rotational speed of the shaft compared to the rotational speed of the cam in a ratio that is not fixed. BMW's VANOS (variable duration and lift) also a lot more advanced than VTEC and allows for elimination of throttle body (but without the reliability), as does Nissan's VVEL. Engineering Explained provides a particularly good explanation of the Hyundai system, and a less easy explanation of the Nissan system. .
Get rid of the cam develop a system that uses electronic solenoids to open and close the valves as far and as long as you want. This would result in having infinite cam possibilities.
This would obviously take a lot of work. Writing code to control the valve. Adjusting for mechanical lag for activation timing. Fitment to the heads. Creating a plug and play bolt on kit. Seems Like a job for one of the stand alone ecu companies. It seems simple enough so it probably exist.
Ive been waiting for someone to make a vtec v8, but i think koenigsegg freevalve makes it obsolete
I have always wondered what two of those vtec four cylinders stacked next to each other would do
For the ultimate in performance and efficiency in combustion engines, I say scrap the camshafts altogether... Use the Koenigsegg FreeValve technology along with the Nissan /Infinity variable compression technology.
Boosted, of course.
Or to make it cheaper and more reliable, the Hyundai cvvd system, with the infiniti vc system like you said, and mazda skyactiv-x's spark assisted compression ignition system and oh yeah, definitely boosted 😁
I have wanted to see this done for years
So there is this game, where youc an design these things, and modify eveything called Automation. '
in there you can if you want to make a ohv v8 with vtec. which would make it easier to compare insterad of dyno graph guessing :D
I love that game
So just a spit ball idea collapse the lifters at low rpm then have them pump up as rpm rises. You would need to have them hold lash but lose oil until collapse on the low profile, then block that loss as rpm increases. It would not be the exact same but it should make some difference.
Nissan VK56 v8.
Variable cam event and lift system. 90% of max torque under 2000rpm
But does it rev ? Or even make good hp/L ?
6200rpm limiter, 0-100 in 7.5 seconds in a 3 ton car shaped like a house, quad cam, variable cam timing,direct injection. 300kw and 560nm
5.6 litre
54hp per litre?
@@DarrenBoxhall wow that is a weak hp per litre lol
@@2zztercel558 oh yeah, and what should it be?
@@DarrenBoxhall 75+ hp per litre is "decent" and 100+ hp per litre is good, by example honda's k20 makes 100hp per liter, toyota also offers 100hp per litre engines, nissan offers them too, even ford has a 526hp 5.2L n/a v8 without VVL 🤷♂️
VTEC, VVT very cool. Have you ever done many tests on a 3.5 ecoboost? I have a 2011 F150 and after 180000 miles this thing pulls like a freight train for only a little over 200 cubes. Thanks for your videos and all the tech talk. Very educational.
I would like v-tec on my motor so it doesn’t buck when it’s below 2 grand
Absolutely agree
Get a higher rpm torque converter
Acura needs to make the MDX a real truck again! I love my 6400 pound 2003 MDX Tech! If it had a VTEC with the SH-AWD and VTEC....... Golly!
I LOVE my b18c DC integra daily. It's just not very fast compared to modern cars. Needs a turbo I think.
yes-boost is your friend
i had a BMW 4.4 lite rv8 with four cams in 2001, seem to have early vtec application
Was the system called Valvtronic? If so, that only (but continuously) varies lift. Not duration. They have another system called VANOS that continuously phases (advances and retards) the camshaft, making it a standard VCT system.
@@cjmunnee3356 it had the vanos system
There's been talks of a k series based v8 in the works, I'm really hoping it comes to fruition.
Yep! neutronengines on instagram
I built a couple B-Series engines and loved the tech, built many many more V8s and even an LT seems like tractor tech comparatively, always wondered when someone would catch on to this.
Watch the LS guru Jeremy on fasterproms channel... he was impressed with the vtec on the k20/24 series in kator tot.
Toyota & Nissan , both made V8 engines with VVT VVL . They started production about 25 years ago.
If you start looking you will find some boosted engines makeing good power.
If you compared a 3uz Toyota & a VK56 Nissan to a LS of similar size , I think the results would be very interesting.
Hemi was updated with dual variable valve timing in 2009.
yes-VVT works well but is not VTEC
Vtech adjusts lift too, not just timing
Dual variable cam timing on a v8 with a single cam?
@@jamesgeorge6551 Yup. The 5th-gen Viper uses it. It's called Cam-In-Cam. The Viper engine uses it to phase the exhaust part, but sadly not the intake. MOPAR had trouble getting a dual phaser to work, I think. (Edited for spelling)
@@cjmunnee3356 But not the Hemi, from what I can tell. Chrysler has enough trouble keeping lifters and cam lobes alive without cam-in-cam in Hemi engines.
Richard, the Cadillac Northstar engine had DOHC heads and got independent intake and exhaust cam timing toward the end of production. Yes it was the same profile but it gave the best results short of two profiles. It also came supercharged!
The Northstar was an engineering marvel, but had one major issue that shortened the production life: Head bolt thread failure. That was from a combination of engineering miscalculation and production quality of the aluminum/casting process. By 2006-2008 the factory had mostly solved that issue, but the reputation of the Northstar was ruined by then.
Maybe you could do some Northstar dyno testing? That would be the other guy’s other guy's engine!
iv been talking about this for years just don't have the tools to do it.
or the knowledge and skill*
@@MrMikucki lmao, while probability is on your side, that's still a rather pretentious and myopic statement to make of a person you know little to nothing about. Stay humble my friend. You won't look so foolish that way.
@@MrMikucki WHOA, master engine builder over here, sit the fuck down lmao.
I always said for years. Emissions aside a 2 stroke v8 with dirt bike power valves would be awesome
A 2 stroke v8 like ones found in racing boats
Wasn't that kind of the idea of the Rhodes lifters?
Yes Rhodes lifters still in business today!
Cruising from a 196° dur to a 280°dur @ 5252rpm and holding out to 9500rpm on a 2 litre Is a feeling that can't be explained.(my exact b20vtec set up before I began boosting it, still sitting in my garage at the moment) But having that on 4.8, 5.7 or 6.2 would be considered a time machine
I'd love to see VCT and VTEC combined on a DOHC V8 that had the extremely over square bore and stroke of a Ford Boss 429.
You could do it on a overhead cam v8 like the ford cyoty or the heim head style
Hell yes i would love that on a SBF
Does oil pressure in hydraulic lifters achieve a similar function?
NOT REALLY
See, this is why I always get sad to see that Honda never mass produced a VTEC V8, or any V8 for that matter. Yes, I realize they had V8s in IndyCar, but they weren't mass produced. Obviously Nissan and Toyota made PLENTY of V8s and they're all very powerful well-balanced engines.
Literally the coyote v8 is what you guys are talking about. It’s got tivct
vvt is not VTEC
This is why honda should make a production v8 and possibly v10
Nissan has VVEL. Full control. Interesting stuff.
I'm pretty sure VVEL only varies lift. While VTEC is a 2-step (I believe there's a 3-step version that's at least theoretical), It changes the entire lobe profile. Both systems can be combined with cam-phasing for even more fun.
@@cjmunnee3356 vvel is variable valve event and lift.
@@ToprankImporters Yup. I left out the cam-phasing part, because that part of the system is pretty ubiquitous in various forms on DOHC engines today. The variable lift system is the only part I was comparing to VTEC. Sorry for any confusion.
@@cjmunnee3356 sure but with VVEL you can have the valve stay open longer and with more lift than a 2nd lobe.
That v8 would be massive
This is an idea that I had back 12 years ago. Unfortunately don’t have the means to create that at all. 😅
im 1998 BMW added a similar system called vanos to their m62 motors. A few years too late for that Idea.
Two spots where you could waste the motion of a large cam to make it act smaller would be the lifters and the rocker arms.
The lifters could have a significant amount of hydraulic + spring slack. At the appropriate rpm an oil passage with a locking pin could take up slack. Basically a bad hydraulic lifter that turns into a solid lifter at higher rpm.
LASH AND RHODES LIFTERS
But have modern engine often have something like vtec but smoother that you not feel it.
Besides I also think this is a grate idea. Personally I would want a real honda V6 VTEC.
Like a more powerful Honda J-series like the J35 and J37
Nissan's VK56VD (5.6L V8) has VVEL which means Variable Valve Event & Lift. Almost VTEC just no change in duration. An Infiniti QX80 is rated 400HP, 413lb-ft.
what about ditching the whole cam and do like koenigsegg and just use freevalve system on an V8
I would love to see that technology developed and used in production cars. Its exciting.
@@ripcut28 Has it's own issues. With a mechanical cam you recover a lot of the horsepower required to open the valves, when the spring is pushing against the down ramp. Freevalve does not allow for that AFAIK.
Porsche did it with their 4.8l direct injection engines on the Panamera and Cayenne GTS/Turbo, Variocam+. They added intake lift and changed cam timing when the sport button was pressed. The only drawbacks were it didn’t change intake/exhaust independently and they weren’t that aggressive with lift changes. Same technology that the flat 6’s use in the 911’s
its different......
Germans: well so now they reached the point we reached 20 years ago
VVT IS NOT THE SAME-GERMANS ARE STILL BEHIND
@@richardholdener1727 ever Heard of VarioCam by Porsche that’s Vanos and VTec combined. Wake up VTec is fucking old technology. Literally even Golfs unse a combination of Vanos and VTec
Can you run a test with Rhodes Variable Lifters?
I have a 363 on an engine stand with a Crane custom HR and those lifters.
I used a professional engine software to simulate my build and was pleased.
Vtec too hard to build. How about variable valve timing on the ls motor. Toyota makes electric cam timing gears.
That would be fun too.
New LT's have variable timing
I think as things progress and they look for more and more out of gas engines they'll move towards a Vtec type system. Probably not quite as much for overall power, but so it can have a low power high efficiency cam that could then switch to a more normal cam. But, once they develop that system it'd be pretty easy for the aftermarket to come in with more ideal power cams.