I always figured dust came from the meteors that fell from the moon. After the evil brother crashed through it, he left residue of the magic he took back on it. The meteors then reigned down on the planet as it rotated. Scattering dust around the world. Which might also explain why much of the dust had to mined. Since the meteor impacts created craters and embedded deep into the ground in some places.
@@SCP.343 Both brothers were messed up. Also, the "Dark" brother created, controlled and was responsible for the Grimm, which are evil incarnate. Sooo.....
@@DocMicrowave the Grimm were never said to be "evil incarnate" just attracted negative emotions and destructive to mankind and their constructions. They might be considered evil from the perspective of humans, but they're only following their instincts. Is the lion evil for killing and eating the gazelle? From the perspective of the gazelle? Sure. But from where we sit? It's debatable. Also I never said the God of light wasn't messed up.
It should be important to note, that Salem is hung up on the phrasing "so long as this world turns, you shall walk its face." Totally ignoring that she needs to learn the importance of life and death.
Exactly, and Ozma in turn heard Jin's answer "You can't" and immedeately assumed defeat was inevitable. He means to shoulder the burden alone, but that isn't what his task was. Much like *Salem* was cursed to walk the face of the world so long as the planet turns, until she learns the importance of life and death. *Ozma* was tasked to unite humanity. What *I* choose to believe is that Humanity needs to present a united front against her, no one can defeat Salem alone. Hell, chances are no one can defeat Salem *period.* But if Humanity is united by diversity by the time Salem collects all four relics, and the Gods judge in their favor then Humanity wins. Conversely, if someone can finally drive home the importance of life and death in Salem's thick skull then they *also* win. In short there are win conditions for man, but none that Oz could see through alone.
@@NatyaVT to add to everything we both said: Salem doesnt realize that even if she is the one to summon the brothers back to Remnant while humanity is fractured, she wont be released from her shackles via death. That would defeat the purpose of her punishment.
@@MandalorOrdo I can only assume she means to slay the brothers when she summons them back, either for revenge or so she can usurp their place... but powerful though she is, I just can't see her defeating them.
@@NatyaVT We don't really know what's Salem's end goal, she could just be trying to find a way to die, get revenge on the gods, get revenge on Ozpin, show off to the gods by gathering all relics and just being like "hey your fuckers, it's me again"
"Humanity, born from dust", is one of the first lines in the show, and now we know that this is literally: humans died, their dust is what the current humans do to "use magic". There is an episode where Pyrha and Ozpin are talking, and he asks her "what is your favorite fairy tale?", she awnser: "the girl in the tower", which if you think about it, every single fairy tale in this world is probably a real story that Oz told about one of his previous lives, and that includes the four maidens, which he is the old man that gave them their powers, since they made him remember his kids. Also, if you watch again, Oz asks "how can I destroy Salem", I think the phrasing was the problem. HE can't do it, and Salem can't be destroyed, the gods said that themselves, she needs to learn the importance of Life and Death, and that is how I think she will be defeated.
Not to mention there are *other* ways she could be defeated and rendered harmless or a non-problem. So yeah they definitely picked up on the question being probably misleading in that while the answer ius true, the question was interpreted too literally by Jinn. Which I love. Lost Fables is one of my favorite episodes of RWBY. Also it's you could probably argue that Salem could die if you stopped the world from turning given the wording from the Brothers.
Yup. When it comes to these kinds of things, you always have to parse out the lines and basically treat it like the Prophecies of the Oracle of Delphi. Eg. When one king asked the Oracle if he would win if he went to war, the Oracle told him, "If you go to war, a great empire will be defeated." He took it at face value as a prophecy of his victory, but ended up being beaten, retreated, and then the enemy followed him home and sieged *his* kingdom and "a great empire was defeated" (his own). We know Dust loses its power when it starts to leave the atmosphere. So it's very possible that natural magic, like what Salem and Oz can use, would also not function. So just find a way to deposit Salem on the Moon, and bing-bang-boom, problem solved. Her magic won't work, she's immortal so she technically won't die, and she can't affect anything or anyone anymore because she's stuck on the moon. All she can do is sit up there and pound mochi. Oz was told *he* can't destroy Salem... but Jinn can't tell of events that have yet to occur. If there was no way, at that time, to destroy her, then yes, he couldn't. But if the means to do so didn't exist yet, Jinn would have no knowledge of it, so couldn't say. Furthermore, he presumes its *his* responsibility to solve everything, so _he_ must be the one to do it. He never considers someone else might be the one to destroy her, so he never considered a more broadly applicable, neutral, passively worded question, like "how can Salem be destroyed?" Or "How can Salem be stopped from acquiring all the Relics?" Or "How can Salem be guided towards breaking her Immortality Curse?"
It's as Ozpin said. Even with how Lionheart broke his trust and changed loyalties. 'My actions are backed by experience.' He felt he had to keep things hidden because of betrayal.
"Pierce the sky, escape your fate. The more you try the more you'll just breed hate, And lies. Truth will rise, Revealed by mirrored eyes." - The lyrics of Sacrifice from the Volume 2 soundtrack
"Have you no shame? Signing them up for your war Train them to fight what they can't beat Your sins are what they'll pay for Sacrifice them For your needs Slaughter is coming, the end drawing near You'll regret your deeds" -some of they lyrics of Divide from the Volume 3 soundtrack which is also Salem's theme.
The thing that Oz didn't want anyone to know is that Salem can't be destroyed. As far as he's concerned, he's fighting an unwinnable battle, and is just trying to protect as many lives as he can. There aren't many people who will sign up for a war that boils down to simply staving off inevitable defeat. That and the whole story is very personal and traumatic for him, what with having Remnant's messiest romance ever and the deaths of his 4 daughters.
My issue with this when it comes to the main characters is that this is exactly what they did when they became huntresses, there is no beating the Grim, only holding them of and preventing humanities extinction, and that's what they signed up for. My only thought is that when they learn about Salem, they think that maybe there is a way to end it and win after all only to have that false hope crushed by learning of her immortality but then they're back where they were at the beginning.
In order for Ozpin to continue to train huntsmen to aid in his fight, he had to maintain the false idea that Salem can be beat. Without that hope, he would be hard pressed to gain recruits, volunteers. The same goes for Salem. In order get people to follow her, she too had to give her followers false hopes. That they would be major players in her new world once she wins. No one would want to follow her if they new that all she wants is the bring on the destruction of the world.
And yet he fell into the simplest of solipsistic traps, *"How can **_I_** defeat Salem?"* Not a good showing for such a smart guy. (The proper question is: *How can Salem be defeated?* Which opens all paths of potential success.) The war is unwinnable _because Ozpin (accidentaly) rigged it from the start..._
Probably more like millions of years, if all current life was destroyed it had to evolve again from dust (at least how I see it) Takes more than a thousand years to build a civilization/history/species (just look at our own track record)
@@benschwartz3092 Unless it was rapid evolution from the gods, we will never know. Millions of years doesn't make sense, I suspect salems mind would be different if she lived for millions of years. I think maybe 5 to 15 thousand years old with rapid evolution
@@benschwartz3092I don't think evolution exists in their world, pretty sure everything was created by the gods, humanity came back through other means probably, maybe there were some people in the Ever After, idk
I like how the God of Darkness was flattered that a human finally went to him instead of his brother for once that he brought Ozma back right away with no strings attached
Meanwhile the loser light god is just talking about how the circle of life is so important while being healthy, immortal, and undying himself. What a hypocrite.
Really makes you think when you see Volume 9 and the god of light comes off as more of a gaslighting dick of an older brother and the god of darkness was more of a misunderstood chill dude that actually loved and wanted to bask in his creations until everything kind of pushed him over the edge. The light brother could have literally stopped him and negated the giga nuke yet he just turned his head and let the betrayal the dark brother felt after countless millenia drive a mass extinction.
@@daysand123 and volume 9 also shows that they arent even gods at all, just 2 creatures that reborn too many times on the magical wonderland tree, and since Ruby do that too, maybe she "improves herself" on the process and now she can kill salem with her silvered eyes
@@CampaignerSC Cause those are rules they made, it's not something inherent to their universe, they're literally making an experiment on Remnant, and those were the rules for the experiments that they were doing. The world is just a playground for them, and they're just doing what they want
In response to your question of "why didn't he share all his knowledge?" I would only say, it's extremely hard to get followers when they think that Salem is invincible. I think that's what it really boils down to. As well as, he probably DID share this stuff beforehand. Remember his comment of "I've made more mistakes than any man, woman, or child." He probably has shared what he knows through some reincarnations, and that got him killed/turned on/blamed/ostracized. I can't imagine how many of his lives were just wasted, or cut short from a misstep. Man has my sympathy for sure.
@@AZDfox Very true. But Oz is still, at his core, human. We aren't meant to live a countless number of lifespans. So there's definitely been some overcorrecting each generation and coupled with the change in cultures and such? I honestly can't blame him. No good options, either way. Hahah!
Fun fact: CRWBY have said that they've had this story planned since the beginning. Salem was actually the first character they came up with after the main heroes.
Ozma and Salem's daughters were the inspirations for the first maidens. The wizard hermit from the fairy tale was Ozma in one of his lives he spent mourning. Meeting the kind, selfless sisters must have reminded him of his long dead children.
I always thought the daughter were the 4 maidens and they inhereted the powers and a form of reincarnation. Atleast my head cannon its implied ozma could have first hand experience with alot of the fairy tales, and this is the true story of the maidens.
@@sixtyarmedcandy3392 the reason we know it's not the kids, is that we know Oz is weaker than he used to be because he sacrificed some of his power to grant it to the maidens.
@@bradstrife2211 and also because, as far as we know, the maiden's are not capable of true magic like Salem, Oz and the daughters, they are just able to use elemental magic without needing dust.
Kind of wish they'd put a little snapshot or scene of Depression Ozma giving the maidens their power in that little montage after Salem kills him, just to show that this backstory doesn't negate what he already told them about the maidens. It's not strictly necessary but they could have avoided A LOT of confusion if they had
The episode mostly speaks for itself. Does a great job making it clear that Ozma’s qualifications for being the one to save the entire world was just “slightly better at fighting than his contemporaries”. He’s in over his head, cursed, with no way to win. Just the holy orders to keep trying. The idea of this backstory was one of the earliest things plotted out. Obviously the details changed as they added in story beats like the Maidens, but Salem herself was devised either right after RWBY or JNPR (I forget if she was their 5th or 9th character). Edit: Tell a lie, there is some important subtext to point out here. Everyone who saw Jinn’s vision know there’s an actual afterlife waiting for them. That’s kinda a big deal.
Yes, Oz is in over his head. But I must disagree on the point of his qualifications being only "better at fighting." Jinn's description of Ozma was "a legendary hero renowned for always willing to give his life to save the weak, who does not seek reward for his deeds." Such as Ozma didn't just save Salem so he can get the fair maiden, he did it because it was the right thing to do. Falling in love was just something that happened afterward. So, Oz was already qualified as a Hero even before the story began, and the Gods knew that. He was picked because lesser men would have either gave up half way or flat out refused to undertake such an arduous task. Still, he is only human, and only so much one man can handle.
I did notice that. It is extremely reluctant to take decisive action at any time. Frankly, in light of that, I'm surprised it gave Ozma the choice to return.
Something ironic in this from a biblical perspective. If God made the heavens and the earth according to Genesis, and GAVE mankind dominion over the majority of it... If things go haywire is it Gods fault, or man's (who was given the power and authority)? Didn't mean to bring RL religion into it but kept going over the parallels in my mind while reading some of the comments.
@@kenschortgenjr7540 Personally, I consider it still the God's fault. You cannot give people so much power without first teaching them how to use it; same as with a child, you must first *raise* a child before expecting them to be *able* to make well thought out decisions. Other people will have other opinions, though.
There are two possible answers to how humanity returned. One is that the GoL decided to re-seed humanity. The other is that humanity and the faunus re-evolved. The 2nd possibility implies that Salem is not only ancient but incredibly ancient on the order of millions of years.
“How can I destroy Salem?” “You can’t.” How do you tell people following you that the fight is impossible? Also the kids were killed in the firefight between Salem and Ozma - which feels like a reference to the fact that the maiden powers pass on when each of them die.
My theory on this is: the Relic answered truthfully: Ozma/Ozpin can't kill/destroy Salem. But someone else could, would it be a silvered eyes person, or the Gods themselves, shall they ever returns.
This episode alone set the tone and the stage for about maybe 70%-80% of things from here on. Choices, trust, fear, it kinda becomes a matter of “is there/WAS there any good choices?”
Oz never asked if he could save Salem. He frequently voices his concern about causing a panic and has throughout the show. The world knowing about Salem, an un-killable enemy, would certainly cause panic. Also, Salem invited others to try to kill her to convince them she was immortal. So I think the answer of "you can't" is applicable to everyone on the question of how to destroy Salem. I think there's a key bit of info in the part where Salem crawls out of the pool of Grimm.
I mean, if he knew about Salem's creation, maybe he knows that the way to save her is to get her to understand the value of life and death... But maybe he can't see a way to do that either... Why waste a question on what you see as obvious?... Although maybe it's not as obvious as he thinks it is and there is more he could have learned... Although, to be fair, we don't know for sure that he didn't ask more questions than this, it's just that these were connected to what he was hiding... But who knows?
the wording of how salem can be defeated is a tricky one. Ozma asked: "How do I destroy Salem?" it wasn't about destroying her, it was simply about defeating her. to break her free of her curse. but he was so intent on not forgiving he didn't ask the right question
I love that even in RWBY, the gods are just petty assholes. Like, obviously GoL has a point, life and death are a cycle. And yeah, it’s not fair but it’s how things work. What gets me though is that GoL then disrupts his own cycle to bring Ozma back anyway and gives Salem immortality! Like dude, wtf?! It’s not an inherently selfish act to want to bring a loved one back, and I’m certain most people have felt that way at least once. Of course, Salem wouldn’t know how to handle something like that, she has zero experience with these kinds of emotions. Not to mention Ozma was the only good thing in her life, and he was just suddenly taken away by an illness of all things. Also giving someone who had already proven to be manipulative immortality was the dumbest thing the gods could have done. As horrible as it sounds, their best option was to just let her live without immortality as long as she deigned or kill her themselves. They literally gave her the means to set in motion the events of the series. I think if Oz had been a little more forthcoming, not saying all of it but something like being more honest about the pros and cons of the lamp, Ruby wouldn't have asked Jinn anything. And because this needs clarifying, no Oz's kids were not the original Maidens. However, it is possible that one of the reasons did give the OG Maidens their powers is because they reminded him of his and Salem's children.
He didn't disrupt the cycle, it no longer existed. Only one human left, Salem, she is outside the cycle. And he was correct, disrupting the cycle by forcing immortality on her, and everything ended up ruined.
While true, the thing is when he recalled Ozma and offered him the choice, the gods had already abandoned their 'experiment' so the original rules of life and death were broken. More than personified gods, I see in RWBY the G-o-light and G-o-darkness as the yin and yang of nature. Destruction isn't a bad thing unto itself as it is necessary in nature to bring about new life. And when life is allowed to thrive too much and too long it kills an ecosystem. Similar to how greenies in the real world pushed to have non-native wolves sent to Idaho where they disrupted the eco-system and eradicated most wildlife in that territory.
@@goddesssalem4842 True BUT... remember what the Jin as narrator said just before she met the G-o-light. It was here that she would bring about mankind's destruction. The gods were likely thinking they were ONLY punishing her when they made her immortal... not having the foresight to see what she would then do or become. And then in subsequent events they reacted to her actions, which eventually led to their destroying mankind and leaving the planet. And of course we only see the G-o-Light come to Ozma with a chance to return... not as he was, but his soul in a different form. Thus it is NOT out of the realm to assume the G-o-light talked with his brother on a course of action. Especially because the g-o-light said the relics would bring them BOTH back... to either live with them or eradicate them in judgement.
@@kenschortgenjr7540 They left an immortal being on remnent in a pissed off state against them and they didn't stop to think that there might be consequences by doing so. The god of light through Salem under the bus just to keep his brother in line and said nothing else about his brothers betrayal. Salem lying is irrelevant, because the god of darkness shouldn't of broken the pact with his brother in the first place. These balances and cheaks are in place for a reason and the god of darkness should of sent Salem away, she needed to learn to grieve, accept her loss and move on, instead they punished her and turned her bitter towards them. They created this mess, the law was broken the 1st time a human came to them without thinking of the consequences.
Whenever I watch this episode, my mind always sticks on one point; Technically, the Faunas were made in the image of The Gods - Human bodies with animal characteristics.
My theory after this episode, is that the faunas are sabotage, made secretly by the brother of destruction, where they're different enough from regular humans that peace is going to extremely difficult, but both of the gods will only see them as humans with animal bits, so then the dark brother can go "Oh well, guess I'll just have to destroy it all, too bad." without making his brother mad.
Can't say I would fight because I'm a little b*tch from the real world but I'd like to hope the powers at be would fight back the unkillable foe instead of rolling over and letting all humanity die. Also we only know that Oz Can't defeat her.
“I have made more mistakes than any man woman or child” he feels responsible for Salem. Also if he told the people around him that Salem can’t be killed that would bring the Grimm with despair
No one can destroy or disempower Salem. The gods cursed her for a reason. All they have to do to defeat her is help her to understand what the gods want her to. It won't be easy, and may cost many more lives, to help her, but if they can, they might not need to destroy her.
"Legends. Stories scattered through time. Mankind has grown quite fond of recounting the exploits of heroes and villains, forgetting so easily that *we are remnants,* byproducts, of a *forgotten past.* Man, *born from dust,* was strong, wise, and resourceful, but he was born into an unforgiving world..." - Salem, season 1 opening. Everything now makes a horrifying amount of sense. Why does Dust act like magic in crystalized form. Because it is. Who had magic? Humans did. Though it may have also come from the moon. Jury's still out on that one. Wanna know something else neat? Go back to the first time Weiss visits the CCT Tower way back in volume 2, you'll notice as she walks in there's 4 clocks on the wall, each set to a different time, one for each kingdom. The neat part? The clocks have the sigils of their respective Huntsmen academies on them, each a representation of the Relics we just saw. From this we can now infer where each Relic is located, what each represents AND which Maiden is needed to access it; The Lamp - Knowledge - Mistral - Spring (This one we've already seen and know pretty well. Note how it was located in a city that is noted for art and culture, writing, and whose people care about nature) The Staff - Creation - Atlas - Winter (Hmmm, funny how the Creation Relic is located in the most prosperous and inventive society in the world, which also happens to be on a continent made entirely of ice) The Sword - Destruction - Vacuo - Summer (A once prosperous and beautiful oasis, long ago destroyed and turned into a searing and deadly desert) The Crown - Choice - Vale - Fall (Perhaps the kingdom with the least obvious class divides and most opportunities for its citizens (Mistral had oppressive Emperors in the past, Altas has a huge hard-on for authority and Vacuo is, well, Vacuo) and which has a large and impressive year-round autumnal forest nearby) I could go on, making even further comparisons and such, but you get the idea. Oh and let's just run down the checklist of Salems powers shall we?; Absolute control over all Grimm True magic *True immortality* Yeah.... it's that last one that's the problem How do you defeat that? "You can't." That's why he was hiding things.
pretty sure the kids aren't maidens but maybe were the inspiration for them later, as the legend goes it was a old hermit living by himself making the maidens when people came to visit him, (one of his depressed lives getting cheered up by strangers)
Yes just magical girls. A later Ozma granted Maidenhood to four gentle souls much later on because they reminded him of his daughters. Then he devised the Vaults’ seals with them in mind.
If you take note in the wording of Salem's punishment, her curse is only in place until she learns the value of the balance of life and death. Once she learns that lesson, she will become mortal again.
God this episode is so good, it both explains everything that has been going on at this point while also completely changing the game when it comes to the war against Salem.
I don't think Jinn was pulling anything with her "you can't" answer. Salem cannot be killed. Period. She is immortal. The God of Light specifically said that she may only rest once she accepts the natural cycle of life and death. The only other feasible solution is uniting humanity and summoning the Gods with the relics in the hope that they will deal with Salem.
Tell me that you do not understand English without saying it. Ozpin asked Jinn "How can *I* destroy Salem?" Jinn told Ozpin that HE can't destroy Salem. I swear, schools do not teach anymore. Gender studies is more important than English comprehension. You, whatever you are, clearly excelled in painting your hair, nails, being offended, and chopping your genitals rather than learning language.
This episode always makes me think back to what Oz said to Ruby back in volume 1. "I've made more mistakes than any man, woman or child" he was speaking literally. I really like that Bethany had the same thought as most of the Fandom, was that "you can't" collective or just Oz. Also it implied that their children sadly died in the fight between Oz and Salam, the tale of the lonely hermit explains how the Maidens came to be.
I love how after years of people theorizing how the moon broke, only for it to be that some angry god was basically just slamming the door on his way out
"It was you who ended their lives, made them to dig their own graves. With your dark, sick, cruel design, convinced them their world could be saved. Have you no shame signing them up for your war? Train them to fight what they can't defeat, your sins are what they'll pay for." Ozpin KNOWS he's fighting an almost unwinnable war, yet he keeps sending bodies towards Salem to just die.
I like to think that dust is just the pieces of the moon that fell to earth after it shattered, which is why they say it’s a limited substance, and will eventually run out. It makes sense since the dark brother is the one who gave the first humans magic (his quote “my own gift to them, used against me”), and he’s the one who touched the moon, which probably gave those pieces the magic power they possess.
Unrelated thing: It's said earlier -the Maidens are /not/ the kids. Oz sacrificed most of his magic to create them later as forces of good in the world, likely in defiance of Salem. Hence her desire to take that little remaining magic for herself (and access the relics).
Also, from what I've pieced together a very long time ago, Ozpin before his reincarnation to Ozcar: knowing the deal, he has also heard countless times "we've got your back" or any interation of that. When he said "Do you think Leo(Lionheart) was the first!?" He knows that any possible comrade can be fickle and run or betray him and work with Salem if he were to drop the whole story on them. While he has learned to fight and live with his hosts and their family, he still has a very cautious approach to letting people know or them being in his circle.
Interesting thing to realize is that at first Ozma wasn't doing what he's doing now with Oscar and probably Ozpin too where he let's them have most of the control and will eventually merge with him, but instead Ozma just completely took permanent control of the person and did whatever he wanted just using the person's body as a vessel despite the other person's soul still being there.
The fact that after centuries or however long it had been of humanity being in discourse, it seems clear that he has been burned many times when he openly offers info. I cant imagine people following a this person to stop someone unstoppable and on top of that he loves her, like how trustworthy could a man like that be
“How do I destroy Salem?” You can’t, she has immortality. “How do I SAVE Salem?” is the question that should be asked, and no one is asking. Salem being an immortal baddie is good because it’s the physical representation of “evil never dies”. But, although you can’t erase evil that exists, you can STOP it before it is created. And getting to the root of said evil is the true solution. Ruby blasting the Grimm away and Salem learning the importance of Life & Death will put her to rest, but the root of her evil is where you get to the solution. That said evil being the hypocrisy of the gods. They are too focused on stopping Salem, but she can’t be. You have to save her by addressing the root issue. (Same thing with Cinder. Cinder is not going to be redeemed, and why should she? But even if they defeat Cinder, what next? What if another Cinder pops out because nobody stopped the evil before it was created?)
And this is the episode that made Ozpin and Salem my favorite characters and also made me start hoping that somehow, Ozpin and Salem's relationship is how they defeat her. After all, it's what started all this, it's only fitting that it helps end it. Since it pretty much confirmed that the original maidens were their children, perhaps part of Ozpin's curse was also inherited, and that's why the maidens' magic goes from host to host? Or maybe he did give four young women powers after they helped get him out of his depression, perhaps reminding him of his four daughters, and they're how he came up with the idea to give the maidens his magic in thanks. One of my biggest questions about the reincarnation thing is, does Ozpin keep his original semblance(if he had one), or does he use the semblance of his current carnation? Does he keep the semblances of his old lives? After all, the souls start separate before merging into one, so how does that work? The gods did also tell Salem how to remove her immortality, by learning the value of both life and death, she would be able to rest. But she instead kept trying to spite them, leading an army to try to kill them. Yeah, they definitely could have done something else, but Salem was also doing everything wrong. But all this adds complexities to both Ozpin and Salem that I love. (I also kinda ship them, but not as they *are* together more like I wish they were *still* together having lived together and changed for the better) but Ozpin doesn't control who his soul goes to, I'm sure many times he got reincarnated into the body of someone who already had a family, which kinda sucks cause it means he's likely lost many families, and I'm sure there's been at least one time his soul entered a woman's body, which must have been weird. The God of Light was trying to follow rules he and the God of Darkness created together, one of which is not to disrupt the balance of life and death. The god of darkness didn't really care for the rules, and was just going to do whatever he looked (as he said) but after hearing Salem lied to him because GoL wouldn't do it he realized Salem was manipulating him to bring Ozma back, she didn't actually believe only he could do it, like she had told him. They punished her for trying to manipulate them, and when the GoD destroyed humanity, GoL wanted to give humanity a second chance he knew eventually they'd evolve back into existence, so he gave Ozma the chance to help them. I don't think the reincarnation was meant to be punishment for Ozma, but it turned into one. Unlike Salem, Ozma didn't do anything wrong and i believe the GoL wanted to ensure Ozma didn't have to go through what Salem did, what he didn't count on was Ozma and Salem doing everything they did. Just my thoughts on this episode.
I will say that the four daughters weren't the Maidens because they were born with all kinds magic where the Maidens only have elemental magic and as you saw with the toy laying there it's implied that the girls were killed during the battle between there parents. I do think that the original Maidens reminded Oz of his daughters. But something you may have missed is when the God of Light was about to leave he said the planet is merely a remnant of what it once was which Remnant is the name of the planet and also since new humanity doesn't have magic they have Semblances which is a Semblance of the magic they once had. Also something else noticeable if you pause on the moment, with Oz and his new family with the two kids both kids have Silver Eyes like Ruby a trait we know is hereditary since Ruby got them Summer like Qrow said in Volume 3 but we noticed that Oz's reincarnation doesn't have Silver eyes, their brown and the wives are blue, which has lead some people in the Fandom to believe that if Oz had children during one of his lives that instead of being born with magic they'd be born with Silver Eyes but that is a theory.
actually it has never been said that Maidens are only stuck doing elemental magic. They just live in a world that just recently started experimenting with fusing dust to create other elements and effects, The Maidens should be capable of replicating those and even semblances.
@@BARALover96 Actually they changed it in Fairy Tales of Remnant that Maidens can only use elemental magic which I think was smart because then they would have been too OP
It is a common cobclusion that people come to when they first watch this episode. Probably because it is 4 girls. While Ospin may have been lying about how he made the Spring Maidens. Personally I think their children were killed in that fight, the magic that must have been flying about was too powerful for them to survive. In my opinion, their daughters were killed during the battle and the maidens were given their powers by Ospin later.
For when Ozpin asked the question for "how do I destroy Salem" the problem is that he asked a genie a question so she took it literally so she said HE can't the proper question should have been "How can Salem be destroyed?"
I recommend u now listen "Sacrifice" ones again bc now will make more sense. This song is from Raven to Oz and after that episode u will understand more.
The reality is far more horrifying. Ozma created the fairy tale after the fact to explain the existence of the Maidens without implicating himself in what really happened.
I think the only way to defeat Salem is to convince her how important death is. The gods told her she'd walk to world until she understood the importance of like and death.
this was the obvious answer for me too! No one can destroy her because she needs to accept death herself. She wants destruction, but she needs to understand actual loss, and how it isn't necessarily the end or evil, since death is the thing that makes life meaningful. Not sure how they'll do that considering she's so twisted at this point, but I love the direction this episode takes everything!
Because Volume 10 is in such limbo, we may never truly find out the answer to the Salem question. But over the years I have solidified my belief in that it doesn't really have anything to do with Salem, but instead in what the god of light said was his task. To bring mankind together in harmony, THEN when the relics are brought together the gods will return and live with them again. And when you look at what the reincarnations of Ozma have done throughout time, starting with our perspective of Ozpin, his/their goal has always been to accept humanity (and the faunus) in peace. If you remember he was the antithesis of Ironwood in always pushing peace over war. Then when the gods return, let THEM deal with Salem.
I can't help but think it may also have to do with the God of Light's declaration of Salem's immortality "You must learn the importance of life and death. Only then may you rest." Maybe if they can somehow show Salem the importance of the cycle of life and death she will lose her immortality. How they will do that I have no idea but I'd imagine Ruby will be key maybe with her mother and maybe Jaune will also play a part with Pyrrha. They have experienced great loss but are learning to live with it and continue living their lives and their life and deaths have inspired our current heroes to become greater than they might have otherwise.
This episode changed all the rules of the series and it's great seeing you two talk about them :) Wondering and asking all the questions the FNDM had over this volume is great :D
A really old theory is that Jaune is a descendent of Salmen, so the children of Oz and Salmen may have escaped the battle without them knowing. I honestly think that the god of light is the unreasonable one out of everyone.
So now... You know just about everything. "You can't." OZMA can't, but there might be someone who can. Note: Back at the end of Volume 3, when Ruby's silver eyes flashed, it was the same light the Light God emitted when he changed into his Dragon form, the shockwave killing all the Grimm around him. "Victory is in a simple soul." "When you fail and you rely on your smaller soul, know you send her to the same pitiful demise." Ruby.
I'll have more to say with next weeks episode, but for this one i will say one of my only gripes is exactly what Ken said, that you come out of this episode not really thinking Ozpin did anything bad when they built it up as some deep dark horrible thing that he did and is hiding it from them. It's the one thing i feel is missing from this backstory. I love the episode, don't get me wrong, but i was expecting things like Oz being careless with peoples lives and sacrificing hundreds of people in pursuit of his mission or something along those lines, or him somehow being responsible for the way Salem is created. I didn't want him to be irredeemable or be revealed as the True Evil of the story or anything like that, but something really objectively immoral that is unquestionably his fault that he is obviously ashamed of but would still put his character into question, something that shows he's not a Pure beacon of ultimate good morals and wisdom as one might initially think in this classic Good VS Evil story. I think it would have served to make him more complex and interesting than he already is and it would ultimately lead to the same short and long-term results in the plot (no spoilers).
Remember sometime Cinder said way back in... Volume 2? Maybe 3? "It's not about overpowering the enemy, it's about taking away what power they have." Definitely proud of you for keeping the sentiment in mind.
In regards to what happened to the kids, they died in the battle between Oz and Salem. The maidens are not actually reincarnations of them. Oz gave a portion of his power to create the maidens, because the original 4 maidens reminded him of his children.
Salem is a victim of circumstance, this whole chain of events started with Salem being locked up by her cruel father. Ozma freed her and they were in love, when Ozma died she hasn't development the emotional coping mechanism to deal with his death, how can you expect a young girl who's been imprisoned all her life to have a well balanced view and understanding of the world?. Just wondering, where is this selfishness the gods speak of come from, because I don't see it??. They are confusing selfishness with grief and naivety. Salems first mistake was lying to the god of darkness, a greving girl lied to a god to get her loved one back, is that really such a massive crime?, Are you telling me you wouldn't do the same?, it's not like she killed someone. The god of light said he didn't want to break the balance with his brother so he rightfully sent Salem away. But in his arrogance and pride, the god of darkness gave Salem what she wanted, he was more than happy to break the balance to get one over his brother . But what did the gods do then???, They both broke the balance of life and death by making Salem immortal. What happened to the balance that these brothers preach about?, is it one rule for them and one rule for the rest. These gods sound like hypocrites to me. What the god of darkness should of done was sent Salem away, just like the god of light did, instead he broke the balance with his brother and caused these chain of events. They left an immortal being on remnent in a pissed off state against them and they didn't stop to think that there might be consequences by doing so. The god of light through Salem under the bus just to keep his brother in line and said nothing else about his brothers betrayal. Salem lying is irrelevant, because the god of darkness shouldn't of broken the pact with his brother in the first place. These balances and cheaks are in place for a reason and the god of darkness should of sent Salem away, she needed to learn to grieve, accept her loss and move on, instead they punished her and turned her bitter towards them. And surprise surprise Salem frustration grow because she couldn't die, pushing her into a corner by turning humanity against them. We then got a second form of hypocrisy from the god of darkness, he committed global genocide and collect punishment for the so called crimes of one woman and a handful of people. Where is the so called balance in that??, I thought these gods were meant to have balance with each other ,the god of light didn't even try to stop him. When the gods left, Salem believed she could kill herself by falling into the pool of darkness, this clearly changed her, she lots her ability to feel any empathy, she became a being of destruction. This Salem is very different from the human salem, learning to manipulate wasn't something new, but being a killer is something that came from the pool of darkness. We then saw more hypocrisy from the god of light, he created a second immortal, (breaking his balance for a second time) why would you preach balance and break it at every opportunity you get. We learnt that breaking the balance brings chaos as we saw with Salem, so why would he do it again??. He could just kill Salem , but it's all about punishment with these two and nothing more. They could stop all the evil on Remnant right now, but no, they rather teach Salem a lesson. How pathetic are they. The god of light washed his hands of remnent and told Ozma to deal with the mess him and his brother created in the first place, personally I don't think these gods are fit to run a bath, let alone a planet and why would you put yourself on the same pedestal as your creation?, why would you live amongst them. The god of light said we will learn from our mistakes, but he didn't, because he made a second immortal. Interesting how he bought Ozma back when he needed too, but when Salem asked him for the same request he said no. This whole conflict started because of balance, even more hypocrisy from these two gods. Did the god of light ever tell Ozma the reason why Salem did what she did?, the reason why salem did it was for you??. I'm not saying Salem is faultless, but the consequences and life experiences which were dealt to her were some of the worst and the majority of the blame goes to these two gods who haven't taken any responsibility for their participation and left Ozma to deal with this mess. Let's say the gods do come back again, is the god of darkness going to through a second temper tantrum if someone else lies to him?. Is he going to kill everybody a second time?. All humans are flawed , Salem is flawed, Ozpin is flawed, the god of darkness should know this because he created them and gave them the ability to chose light and dark, what's he going to do, kill them all again if they don't match his expectations. I think there's plenty of blame to go around starting with those two hypocrite gods, Ozma to blame too, because he knocked her up 4 times, set her off, told her about the relics and tried to run of with the kids, he gave salem all the motivation she needed, before that she wasn't causing humanity any problems and living in the forest by herself. And yes Salem is to blame too, because her negative life experiences shaped and moulded her and she never learnt from it, but I don't put the blame solo on her like you do.
[in Nora's voice] EXACTLY! Honestly, i feel sorry for Salem, despite her actions. One should remember, that she is OLD. She went through total extinction of all mankind and she was ALONE for millenias. Yet, she loved Ozma so much, that even in her "post-Grimm-pool" state she immediately recognized him and was geniunely happy about reunion. And then Ozma threw everything away. Instead of finally living his life and balancing Salem, he betrayed his loving (yet unstable because, you know, Grimm pool and millenias of lonelyness) wife, put their children in the harm way, and for what? Some gloden dude's (oh, Taylor Hebert would be sooo... upset) orders? And yes, Gods here are the worst
Salem is representative of the worst of humanity. Selfish, egomaniacal, deceitful, petty, ignorant, unwilling to learn, unwilling to change and unwilling to take responsibility.
another thing to note that rubs me the wrong way is that the first thing Light says to Salem, 'I understand your pain', I'm just like... how? He is an immortal, entirely not-human being who only has semi-occasional spats with his equally immortal brother who seems to be the only family either of them has, how could he even possibly hope to comprehend the pain Salem is feeling having just lost a loved one, let alone the first person to truly love Salem enough to put her wants and needs first, something her cruel father certainly never did? And after seeing that pain he claims to understand be placed on full display via yelling to his face, his only response is too say no and just kick her straight out, not showing even the smallest amount of sympathy, let alone empathy, indeed when he makes Salem immortal, he says he pitied her, no understanding, no empathy, just pity. That to me perfectly sums up that despite creating humanity, neither brother truly understands how humans work or particularly care about them, I mean honestly, Light is the one who refers to Remnant/humanity as a failed experiment as if they were mere lab-rats before leaving, not seeming especially broken up about the planet-wide extinction that just happened, and even claims that without them, humanity can never be whole, something I still can't quite figure out besides potentially the lack of magic
@@j.w.sraptorsquad982Another thing to note, the dark brother created the grimm and they still exist and kill humans on Remnant, WTF. Personally if salem is going to go out, I hope she takes the pity gods with her. I would love salem to take them down
Ironically, Salem had settled as just a lonely recluse in her run down house stewing in her hate and grief and not caring about humanity. With the god of light bringing Ozma back and them reuniting it further caused more harm to the world as she now had a mission once she figured she could get the relics as a last ditch attempt to die.
There is never any confirmation that their children were the original maidens. As far as we know, the kids all died in the battle with Ozma and Salem. They could be, but so far it has all been fan speculation.
Fun Facts Fact 1: Miles Luna considers this to be one of the most complicated episodes the RWBY crew has ever made, on every level. Not counting credits, this is the longest episode of RWBY to date. Fact 2: Jinn refers to the Grimm as "The Brother's Grimm", most likely referencing The Brothers Grimm, two brothers responsible for the famous classic collection of German fairy tales, which includes Little Red Riding Hood, Snow White and Hansel and Gretel. Fact 3: Ozma and Salem's daughters wear dresses reminiscent of the four Maidens, blue (Winter, who also has ice crystal-like details), pink (Summer, whose yellow skirt also has a big Sun), green (Spring, whose bow and dress trimming also has a leaf-like pattern) and orange (Fall, with the upper parts in brown, similar to Amber's clothes). The eldest daughter in blue also has a chain headdress and belt like the ones worn by Jinn. Fact 4: The chapter was inspired by the Harry Potter series of novels and television series Game of Thrones. Fact 5: The whole episode was mocapped in a single weekend. Fact 6: The scene where Salem throws herself into the pool of Grimm was inspired by the video game "Brutal Legend". Fact 7: Originally, "The Lost Fable" was chapter 3 and 4, but they combined them into one. Fact 8: Originally, there was going to be more dialogue from the main cast during this episode, but they decided against it. Fact 9: The toy dog that one of the children has is a Wizard of Oz reference. Fact 10: The children for one of Ozma's reincarnations have silver eyes.
The maidens aren't Oz and Salem's children, as cool as that may be. The story of the seasons explain that the powers were gifted to four women by a hermit wizard, and Oz does confess that yes, he did give these women some of his power(similar to Qrow and Raven). After the fight with Salem calms down, a shot of a stuffed animal, one that was earlier seen carried by their children, is on the ground in the rubble. The children didn't survive the fight, sadly. As for Oz's question about destroying Salem, well, that's a very astute observation by Beth. There are hypotheses about how Salem will go down - some think the statue of Salem in this chapter is foreshadowing Ruby turning Salem to stone, like how the wyvern was in Vol 3. Another is a future character with an interesting semblance(though personally I hope this semblance is used on Cinder). Yet another is that Salem will be persuaded to have a change of heart. One final random tangent: Jaune may be related to Salem and/or Oz. Juane Arc's arc symbol on his shield can be seen in Salem's home castle(upside down in this episode, BUT rightside up in RWBY Fairy Tales) and on the bottom of Salem's dress. Also, it would explain why Tyrian is interested in Jaune... just a thought.
11:25 You can really see Bethany really starting to dislike Salem. 13:43 Yes. 24:53 This is very, very, very, important. Look closely at the children Oz fathered. Note every detail. 25:40 Jinn cannot lie. Djinn have to tell the truth, but if your question is not correct, they can only answer your question truthfully within the parameters of your question. You must be careful with your phrasing.
"that looks like the tree in the vault" Yes, yes it does. And that tree had water underneath it.... that Cinder fell into. Is it the same pool of water? If it is the same pool of water, does it still hold the same power as the Gods have left the planet? Stay tuned....
Crazy theory, what if the tree in the relic of knowledge vault is the same one here in this episode and the reason Cinder survived is because she was secretly made immortal. It most likely isn't the case but it would be kinda cool.
The thing he wanted to keep a lid on was Salems immortality. If you havd a super powerful enemy who CANT be defeated, all you can do is hold them back while you bleed and eventually die. Most people would either just give up and try to run OR kill themselves at that point. Thats when fear, paranoia and missteust become the most dangerous thing of all: becouse then, EVERYBODY has thier finger on yhe trigger, and its only a matter of time till domepnes sweety palms SLIP!
I recommend going back to the Volume 2 soundtrack and listening to 'Sacrifice' again. It's a song from Raven to Ozpin, accusing him of throwing away the lives of those following him - things she alluded to in Volumes 4 and 5, and now make quite a bit more sense, like she knew about this stuff...
And also relistening to 'Divide' from the Volume 3 with Salem taunting Ozpin of the inevitability of defeat when fighting something that cannot be stopped.
ok it hasent been said yet but the keepers of the relics have a peculiar way of speaking. the question asked was "how do i destroy salem?" and the answer was "you cant". that leaves the door open. it is not "she cant be" its "YOU cant". now that could be the only way she will end is if she learns her lesson or maybe there is another way and it just isnt known yet. it is a theory (do i hear mat pat?) but it is a possibility. btw this is my fav lore of all of RWBY. this was so well done. oh and remember the intro from episode 1 "man was born from dust". its a debate but it is believed that dust is the left over magic, the people from that age or both. so that might be the way.
the most popular theory about Ozma's 3rd question to Jinn is that it is both right and wrong. much like a wish to a Monkey's Paw, the words used matter. he asked, "how do I destroy Salem?" and she answered, "You can't." however, the question that should've been asked was "how can Salem be destroyed?" the theory is that she only answered that Ozma can't destroy her, not that she can't be destroyed at all.
the maidens dont reincarnate like Oz does though. only their powers go to the woman who is in their last thoughts (unless the woman is too old, I guess Salem would count as too old. in which case the powers go to someone random). personalities dont seem to be attached. This is no spoiler btw.
I believe that this episode explains the overall plan for Salem. Gather the Relics together, summon the gods, erase the world, and finally die. She has been living for more time than can easily be explained.. All she truly wants is to die.
Salem was cursed to walk the face of the world so long as the planet turns, until she learns the importance of life and death. As a threat, she's the best way to unite humanity before the day of judgement. She works from shadows, trying to divide humanity and collect the relicts to bring gods and destruction. That's her win conditions, but humanity can win with two ways: 1st is to show her the importance of life and 2nd is to be united when the gods return. She can't be defeated because she's immortal, but she can lose.
I have seen a number of reactors jumping to the conclusion that the children were the original Maidens, and while I can see where this comes from, I do not believe this to be the case and that they really were killed during the duel with no reincarnations later. The theory I have seen, and currently believe to be the closest to accurate, is based around the fairy-tale, 'The Four Maidens', which is backed up by Ozpin's account in the previous volume, about him granting a great deal of his own magical power to four young women (most likely during one his lives he spent 'attempting to forget at all'), perhaps because something about the original maidens reminded him of his own daughters and gave him hope to start trying to unite humanity again. I feel like this can be backed up by that fact that while Ozma fought Salem to a mutual standstill, Ozpin lost to/was killed by Cinder, someone who basically only had less than a quarter of his full power, and for all the revelations in this episode, I see no reason for Ozpin to have lied about having a dwindling amount of magic left
One question was used up from the past. I suspect Raven, Summer Rose, and Leo Lionheart may have accessed this first question and reacted in different ways. It's also important at some point to watch the RWBY Fairy Tales for some more background hints. The "gods" seem to be pursuing a program of experimentation with the subject humans, not just setting them up and then abandoning Remnant, but the results are not yet fully formed - discussing any more might reveal spoilers. Humanity, part 2, probably evolved on a super fast time scale due to the magic-imbued DNA from the animals, and the side effect would have been the faunus as a subspecies. I know, speculation speculation speculation***.
The difference is the Gods had a balance, one has the power to give life the other to bring death, each expressed their powers accordingly. Salem only cared for herself, discarded other humans only to get what she wanted. The Gods didn't really "kill" everyone, they were ascended to the afterlife to restart the cycle, so they are at peace, but Salem remained so that in her loneliness she would understand that death has its purpose. Instead she said no, she is much like Adam, they both can't accepted the truth and the natural way of things. Ozma was the purest that ascended as a result they chose him fit to fix things, this time without the god's intervention. If humans can fix each other themselves then they are redeemable, if not then they are a mistake and this time they will be gone for good, no life will continue. When Ozma returned she forgot the purpose of her immortality and only cared to reunite, she saw humans as a second thought and the only way to change them is to beat it into them. With this mindset humans will never come to peace, to bring balance one must beg forgiveness when they make mistakes, and the other must understand and led them that forgiveness, you must lift the log from both ends otherwise the log will be too heavy. This will never happen so long as Salem's influence is present, thus humans are deemed to follow her example, lie, cheat, steal, KILL, until you have what yours. Nothing matters, but YOUR needs. The exact lifestyle Adam and many others are leading in the current day. As for the knowledge, knowing there are demi-gods among them will cause more chaos. The story will not only help Ozma but cause many to side with her, in the beginning no one ever stepped into the god of death's domain, everyone agreed no good came from there. Until Salem walked in, that is how it all began, she's now the demi-god of death in current day. You don't want people walking into her domain and making the same mistake.
"What makes them worse gods than the Brothers, though?" "She wanted to wipe out humanity!" "THEY LITERALLY ALREADY DID!" Mind... Blown. I had never considered that angle.
The children died in the crossfire. Another reason for Oz's shame and Salem's hate. He created the maidens because the four sisters reminded him of his daughters.
Woo! You finally made it to the big one! And yes, a lot of the previous chapters take on a very different look after this reveal, but not in a bad way. The set up was there, but this piece of the puzzle you just couldn't really guess. However, I think most peoiple agree at this point (writers may have confirmed, I don't remember off the top of my head) that the children were _not_ actually the first maidens, those came later, during one of Oz's periods of "trying to forget" (hence the part of that story where he is a hermit wizard who has nothing). We don't even know that it was four sisters that visitied him, he could have made any or all of the story up as an explanation for the origins of the maidens, and he certainly doesn't seem to have known how the powers would be passed on, since as Qrow and Glenda mentioned back in V3 they had to figure some of those out on their own. If Oz knew, he could have just told them. Certainly they knew he was functionally immortal, because you'll recall Qrow never said he was dead, just missing, and wasn't surprised to see him when Oscar showed up. Great reaction, looking forwards to your next one!
Ozma accepted the offer of god of light because Salem is still there. At first it was the only thing the reason he was brought back, aside for leading humanity to unity. He still love her, despite what the elder brother said, until now...or maybe.
Notice the question Ozpin asked “ how do *I* destroy Salem” not how can Salem be destroyed or how can humanity beat Salem Ozpin only ever thought of how he could do it not whether or not it’s possible just how *he* can do it
"Why is the moon shattered?" - The God of Darkness shot the door hard on his way out :D
God of light: i think i will let humans be born again so the world remember me for something.. did you shut the door?
God of darkness: well...
I like how it’s implied that Dust is the remains of ancient humanity.
That's so metal lol
I always figured dust came from the meteors that fell from the moon.
After the evil brother crashed through it, he left residue of the magic he took back on it.
The meteors then reigned down on the planet as it rotated. Scattering dust around the world.
Which might also explain why much of the dust had to mined. Since the meteor impacts created craters and embedded deep into the ground in some places.
@@DocMicrowavehe wasn't evil, just dark and destructive.
@@SCP.343 Both brothers were messed up.
Also, the "Dark" brother created, controlled and was responsible for the Grimm, which are evil incarnate. Sooo.....
@@DocMicrowave the Grimm were never said to be "evil incarnate" just attracted negative emotions and destructive to mankind and their constructions. They might be considered evil from the perspective of humans, but they're only following their instincts. Is the lion evil for killing and eating the gazelle? From the perspective of the gazelle? Sure. But from where we sit? It's debatable. Also I never said the God of light wasn't messed up.
It should be important to note, that Salem is hung up on the phrasing "so long as this world turns, you shall walk its face." Totally ignoring that she needs to learn the importance of life and death.
Exactly, and Ozma in turn heard Jin's answer "You can't" and immedeately assumed defeat was inevitable. He means to shoulder the burden alone, but that isn't what his task was.
Much like *Salem* was cursed to walk the face of the world so long as the planet turns, until she learns the importance of life and death. *Ozma* was tasked to unite humanity.
What *I* choose to believe is that Humanity needs to present a united front against her, no one can defeat Salem alone. Hell, chances are no one can defeat Salem *period.*
But if Humanity is united by diversity by the time Salem collects all four relics, and the Gods judge in their favor then Humanity wins.
Conversely, if someone can finally drive home the importance of life and death in Salem's thick skull then they *also* win.
In short there are win conditions for man, but none that Oz could see through alone.
@@NatyaVT to add to everything we both said:
Salem doesnt realize that even if she is the one to summon the brothers back to Remnant while humanity is fractured, she wont be released from her shackles via death. That would defeat the purpose of her punishment.
@@MandalorOrdo I can only assume she means to slay the brothers when she summons them back, either for revenge or so she can usurp their place... but powerful though she is, I just can't see her defeating them.
@@NatyaVT We don't really know what's Salem's end goal, she could just be trying to find a way to die, get revenge on the gods, get revenge on Ozpin, show off to the gods by gathering all relics and just being like "hey your fuckers, it's me again"
Since RT is dissolved we're probably not gonna get an answer to any of that now. WB is selling away the shows.
"Humanity, born from dust", is one of the first lines in the show, and now we know that this is literally: humans died, their dust is what the current humans do to "use magic".
There is an episode where Pyrha and Ozpin are talking, and he asks her "what is your favorite fairy tale?", she awnser: "the girl in the tower", which if you think about it, every single fairy tale in this world is probably a real story that Oz told about one of his previous lives, and that includes the four maidens, which he is the old man that gave them their powers, since they made him remember his kids.
Also, if you watch again, Oz asks "how can I destroy Salem", I think the phrasing was the problem. HE can't do it, and Salem can't be destroyed, the gods said that themselves, she needs to learn the importance of Life and Death, and that is how I think she will be defeated.
Not to mention there are *other* ways she could be defeated and rendered harmless or a non-problem. So yeah they definitely picked up on the question being probably misleading in that while the answer ius true, the question was interpreted too literally by Jinn. Which I love. Lost Fables is one of my favorite episodes of RWBY. Also it's you could probably argue that Salem could die if you stopped the world from turning given the wording from the Brothers.
Yup. When it comes to these kinds of things, you always have to parse out the lines and basically treat it like the Prophecies of the Oracle of Delphi. Eg. When one king asked the Oracle if he would win if he went to war, the Oracle told him, "If you go to war, a great empire will be defeated." He took it at face value as a prophecy of his victory, but ended up being beaten, retreated, and then the enemy followed him home and sieged *his* kingdom and "a great empire was defeated" (his own).
We know Dust loses its power when it starts to leave the atmosphere. So it's very possible that natural magic, like what Salem and Oz can use, would also not function. So just find a way to deposit Salem on the Moon, and bing-bang-boom, problem solved. Her magic won't work, she's immortal so she technically won't die, and she can't affect anything or anyone anymore because she's stuck on the moon. All she can do is sit up there and pound mochi.
Oz was told *he* can't destroy Salem... but Jinn can't tell of events that have yet to occur. If there was no way, at that time, to destroy her, then yes, he couldn't. But if the means to do so didn't exist yet, Jinn would have no knowledge of it, so couldn't say. Furthermore, he presumes its *his* responsibility to solve everything, so _he_ must be the one to do it. He never considers someone else might be the one to destroy her, so he never considered a more broadly applicable, neutral, passively worded question, like "how can Salem be destroyed?" Or "How can Salem be stopped from acquiring all the Relics?" Or "How can Salem be guided towards breaking her Immortality Curse?"
@omargoodman2999 literally just give her the Kars treatment and eventually she'll stop thinking
that is still misguided. The task is not to defeat her or destroy her, the goal is to heal her broken heart. That is how to save the world.
@@jeffreysmith236 baby steps
It's as Ozpin said. Even with how Lionheart broke his trust and changed loyalties. 'My actions are backed by experience.' He felt he had to keep things hidden because of betrayal.
"Pierce the sky, escape your fate.
The more you try the more you'll just breed hate, And lies.
Truth will rise, Revealed by mirrored eyes." - The lyrics of Sacrifice from the Volume 2 soundtrack
"Have you no shame?
Signing them up for your war
Train them to fight what they can't beat
Your sins are what they'll pay for
Sacrifice them
For your needs
Slaughter is coming, the end drawing near
You'll regret your deeds" -some of they lyrics of Divide from the Volume 3 soundtrack which is also Salem's theme.
The thing that Oz didn't want anyone to know is that Salem can't be destroyed. As far as he's concerned, he's fighting an unwinnable battle, and is just trying to protect as many lives as he can. There aren't many people who will sign up for a war that boils down to simply staving off inevitable defeat. That and the whole story is very personal and traumatic for him, what with having Remnant's messiest romance ever and the deaths of his 4 daughters.
My issue with this when it comes to the main characters is that this is exactly what they did when they became huntresses, there is no beating the Grim, only holding them of and preventing humanities extinction, and that's what they signed up for. My only thought is that when they learn about Salem, they think that maybe there is a way to end it and win after all only to have that false hope crushed by learning of her immortality but then they're back where they were at the beginning.
In order for Ozpin to continue to train huntsmen to aid in his fight, he had to maintain the false idea that Salem can be beat. Without that hope, he would be hard pressed to gain recruits, volunteers.
The same goes for Salem. In order get people to follow her, she too had to give her followers false hopes. That they would be major players in her new world once she wins.
No one would want to follow her if they new that all she wants is the bring on the destruction of the world.
"flirting was much less dangerous back in my day."
@@highlander31527 Ozpin should not have stuck it in crazy.
And yeah, flirting has gotten so much more hazardous now a days.
And yet he fell into the simplest of solipsistic traps, *"How can **_I_** defeat Salem?"* Not a good showing for such a smart guy. (The proper question is: *How can Salem be defeated?* Which opens all paths of potential success.) The war is unwinnable _because Ozpin (accidentaly) rigged it from the start..._
Salem walking remnent for millennia is a crazy thought.
Probably more like millions of years, if all current life was destroyed it had to evolve again from dust (at least how I see it)
Takes more than a thousand years to build a civilization/history/species (just look at our own track record)
@@benschwartz3092 Unless it was rapid evolution from the gods, we will never know. Millions of years doesn't make sense, I suspect salems mind would be different if she lived for millions of years. I think maybe 5 to 15 thousand years old with rapid evolution
@@nexis1293 from the gods that abandonded the world? dont think so personally
@@benschwartz3092I don't think evolution exists in their world, pretty sure everything was created by the gods, humanity came back through other means probably, maybe there were some people in the Ever After, idk
I like how the God of Darkness was flattered that a human finally went to him instead of his brother for once that he brought Ozma back right away with no strings attached
It was probably the first time anyone had went to him, instead of his brother.
Meanwhile the loser light god is just talking about how the circle of life is so important while being healthy, immortal, and undying himself. What a hypocrite.
Really makes you think when you see Volume 9 and the god of light comes off as more of a gaslighting dick of an older brother and the god of darkness was more of a misunderstood chill dude that actually loved and wanted to bask in his creations until everything kind of pushed him over the edge. The light brother could have literally stopped him and negated the giga nuke yet he just turned his head and let the betrayal the dark brother felt after countless millenia drive a mass extinction.
@@daysand123 and volume 9 also shows that they arent even gods at all, just 2 creatures that reborn too many times on the magical wonderland tree, and since Ruby do that too, maybe she "improves herself" on the process and now she can kill salem with her silvered eyes
@@CampaignerSC Cause those are rules they made, it's not something inherent to their universe, they're literally making an experiment on Remnant, and those were the rules for the experiments that they were doing. The world is just a playground for them, and they're just doing what they want
In response to your question of "why didn't he share all his knowledge?" I would only say, it's extremely hard to get followers when they think that Salem is invincible. I think that's what it really boils down to. As well as, he probably DID share this stuff beforehand. Remember his comment of "I've made more mistakes than any man, woman, or child." He probably has shared what he knows through some reincarnations, and that got him killed/turned on/blamed/ostracized. I can't imagine how many of his lives were just wasted, or cut short from a misstep. Man has my sympathy for sure.
aka, Raven. She doesn't want to fight Salem, because she "knows" you can't win.
How do you remain optimistic fighting a war against an unkillable foe who wants nothing but your destruction.
"You think Leo was the first?" Oz definitely learned to play close to the chest.
The problem is, sure, you may have fewer followers, but at least those would be committed. By lying, he risks betrayal every time he recruits someone.
@@AZDfox Very true. But Oz is still, at his core, human. We aren't meant to live a countless number of lifespans. So there's definitely been some overcorrecting each generation and coupled with the change in cultures and such? I honestly can't blame him. No good options, either way. Hahah!
Fun fact: CRWBY have said that they've had this story planned since the beginning. Salem was actually the first character they came up with after the main heroes.
Fifth created team RWBY was first
I love this backstory, and it finally answers why the world is called remanent because it literally is a remanent of the old world
Ozma and Salem's daughters were the inspirations for the first maidens. The wizard hermit from the fairy tale was Ozma in one of his lives he spent mourning. Meeting the kind, selfless sisters must have reminded him of his long dead children.
I always thought the daughter were the 4 maidens and they inhereted the powers and a form of reincarnation. Atleast my head cannon its implied ozma could have first hand experience with alot of the fairy tales, and this is the true story of the maidens.
Why they have to kill the kids though? Poor babies got their big heads fried of their bodies.
@@sixtyarmedcandy3392 the reason we know it's not the kids, is that we know Oz is weaker than he used to be because he sacrificed some of his power to grant it to the maidens.
@@bradstrife2211 and also because, as far as we know, the maiden's are not capable of true magic like Salem, Oz and the daughters, they are just able to use elemental magic without needing dust.
Kind of wish they'd put a little snapshot or scene of Depression Ozma giving the maidens their power in that little montage after Salem kills him, just to show that this backstory doesn't negate what he already told them about the maidens. It's not strictly necessary but they could have avoided A LOT of confusion if they had
The episode mostly speaks for itself. Does a great job making it clear that Ozma’s qualifications for being the one to save the entire world was just “slightly better at fighting than his contemporaries”.
He’s in over his head, cursed, with no way to win. Just the holy orders to keep trying.
The idea of this backstory was one of the earliest things plotted out. Obviously the details changed as they added in story beats like the Maidens, but Salem herself was devised either right after RWBY or JNPR (I forget if she was their 5th or 9th character).
Edit: Tell a lie, there is some important subtext to point out here. Everyone who saw Jinn’s vision know there’s an actual afterlife waiting for them. That’s kinda a big deal.
Salem was the 5th character created by monty, stright after team Rwby
Yes, Oz is in over his head. But I must disagree on the point of his qualifications being only "better at fighting."
Jinn's description of Ozma was "a legendary hero renowned for always willing to give his life to save the weak, who does not seek reward for his deeds." Such as Ozma didn't just save Salem so he can get the fair maiden, he did it because it was the right thing to do. Falling in love was just something that happened afterward.
So, Oz was already qualified as a Hero even before the story began, and the Gods knew that. He was picked because lesser men would have either gave up half way or flat out refused to undertake such an arduous task. Still, he is only human, and only so much one man can handle.
Pay attention to the God of Light’s words.
He never takes responsibility and that will become clear as time goes on.
how so?
I did notice that. It is extremely reluctant to take decisive action at any time. Frankly, in light of that, I'm surprised it gave Ozma the choice to return.
@@jean-paulaudette9246 If you think about it, that just means he himself doesn't have to do anything.
Something ironic in this from a biblical perspective.
If God made the heavens and the earth according to Genesis, and GAVE mankind dominion over the majority of it...
If things go haywire is it Gods fault, or man's (who was given the power and authority)?
Didn't mean to bring RL religion into it but kept going over the parallels in my mind while reading some of the comments.
@@kenschortgenjr7540 Personally, I consider it still the God's fault. You cannot give people so much power without first teaching them how to use it; same as with a child, you must first *raise* a child before expecting them to be *able* to make well thought out decisions.
Other people will have other opinions, though.
There are two possible answers to how humanity returned. One is that the GoL decided to re-seed humanity. The other is that humanity and the faunus re-evolved. The 2nd possibility implies that Salem is not only ancient but incredibly ancient on the order of millions of years.
“How can I destroy Salem?”
“You can’t.”
How do you tell people following you that the fight is impossible?
Also the kids were killed in the firefight between Salem and Ozma - which feels like a reference to the fact that the maiden powers pass on when each of them die.
My theory on this is: the Relic answered truthfully: Ozma/Ozpin can't kill/destroy Salem.
But someone else could, would it be a silvered eyes person, or the Gods themselves, shall they ever returns.
@@aethyr4006that foreshadow a little about volume 9 and the gods not being gods at all
@@FarothFuin spoilers! Remember who’s channel this is!
This was the most lore form the show. The only other episode with this lore is in the latest season.
Remember Ozpin asking Pyrrha what was her favorite faerie tale? All the titles she mentioned can be seen in the events of this episode.
This episode alone set the tone and the stage for about maybe 70%-80% of things from here on. Choices, trust, fear, it kinda becomes a matter of “is there/WAS there any good choices?”
Agreed!! It is within this is the key to stopping Salem, I believe. But........ It will also matter if Salem ever learns the value of life & death.
Oz never asked if he could save Salem. He frequently voices his concern about causing a panic and has throughout the show. The world knowing about Salem, an un-killable enemy, would certainly cause panic.
Also, Salem invited others to try to kill her to convince them she was immortal. So I think the answer of "you can't" is applicable to everyone on the question of how to destroy Salem.
I think there's a key bit of info in the part where Salem crawls out of the pool of Grimm.
I mean, if he knew about Salem's creation, maybe he knows that the way to save her is to get her to understand the value of life and death... But maybe he can't see a way to do that either... Why waste a question on what you see as obvious?... Although maybe it's not as obvious as he thinks it is and there is more he could have learned... Although, to be fair, we don't know for sure that he didn't ask more questions than this, it's just that these were connected to what he was hiding... But who knows?
the wording of how salem can be defeated is a tricky one. Ozma asked: "How do I destroy Salem?"
it wasn't about destroying her, it was simply about defeating her. to break her free of her curse.
but he was so intent on not forgiving he didn't ask the right question
I love that even in RWBY, the gods are just petty assholes. Like, obviously GoL has a point, life and death are a cycle. And yeah, it’s not fair but it’s how things work. What gets me though is that GoL then disrupts his own cycle to bring Ozma back anyway and gives Salem immortality! Like dude, wtf?!
It’s not an inherently selfish act to want to bring a loved one back, and I’m certain most people have felt that way at least once. Of course, Salem wouldn’t know how to handle something like that, she has zero experience with these kinds of emotions. Not to mention Ozma was the only good thing in her life, and he was just suddenly taken away by an illness of all things.
Also giving someone who had already proven to be manipulative immortality was the dumbest thing the gods could have done. As horrible as it sounds, their best option was to just let her live without immortality as long as she deigned or kill her themselves. They literally gave her the means to set in motion the events of the series.
I think if Oz had been a little more forthcoming, not saying all of it but something like being more honest about the pros and cons of the lamp, Ruby wouldn't have asked Jinn anything.
And because this needs clarifying, no Oz's kids were not the original Maidens. However, it is possible that one of the reasons did give the OG Maidens their powers is because they reminded him of his and Salem's children.
He didn't disrupt the cycle, it no longer existed. Only one human left, Salem, she is outside the cycle. And he was correct, disrupting the cycle by forcing immortality on her, and everything ended up ruined.
While true, the thing is when he recalled Ozma and offered him the choice, the gods had already abandoned their 'experiment' so the original rules of life and death were broken.
More than personified gods, I see in RWBY the G-o-light and G-o-darkness as the yin and yang of nature. Destruction isn't a bad thing unto itself as it is necessary in nature to bring about new life. And when life is allowed to thrive too much and too long it kills an ecosystem.
Similar to how greenies in the real world pushed to have non-native wolves sent to Idaho where they disrupted the eco-system and eradicated most wildlife in that territory.
@@kenschortgenjr7540They broke life and death when they made Salem immortal
@@goddesssalem4842 True BUT... remember what the Jin as narrator said just before she met the G-o-light.
It was here that she would bring about mankind's destruction.
The gods were likely thinking they were ONLY punishing her when they made her immortal... not having the foresight to see what she would then do or become.
And then in subsequent events they reacted to her actions, which eventually led to their destroying mankind and leaving the planet.
And of course we only see the G-o-Light come to Ozma with a chance to return... not as he was, but his soul in a different form. Thus it is NOT out of the realm to assume the G-o-light talked with his brother on a course of action. Especially because the g-o-light said the relics would bring them BOTH back... to either live with them or eradicate them in judgement.
@@kenschortgenjr7540 They left an immortal being on remnent in a pissed off state against them and they didn't stop to think that there might be consequences by doing so. The god of light through Salem under the bus just to keep his brother in line and said nothing else about his brothers betrayal.
Salem lying is irrelevant, because the god of darkness shouldn't of broken the pact with his brother in the first place. These balances and cheaks are in place for a reason and the god of darkness should of sent Salem away, she needed to learn to grieve, accept her loss and move on, instead they punished her and turned her bitter towards them.
They created this mess, the law was broken the 1st time a human came to them without thinking of the consequences.
Whenever I watch this episode, my mind always sticks on one point; Technically, the Faunas were made in the image of The Gods - Human bodies with animal characteristics.
My theory after this episode, is that the faunas are sabotage, made secretly by the brother of destruction, where they're different enough from regular humans that peace is going to extremely difficult, but both of the gods will only see them as humans with animal bits, so then the dark brother can go "Oh well, guess I'll just have to destroy it all, too bad." without making his brother mad.
reading this just tickled my brain in the best way omg. i’ve never seen this said anywhere else
The main bad part to me is who would be willing to fight against an immortal enemy that cannot be killed or stopped.
Can't say I would fight because I'm a little b*tch from the real world but I'd like to hope the powers at be would fight back the unkillable foe instead of rolling over and letting all humanity die. Also we only know that Oz Can't defeat her.
A lot of people would fight. And more would search for a way to stop her. It's human nature
The death of Pyrrha changed the tone of the series. This episode changed what you thought you knew.
“I have made more mistakes than any man woman or child” he feels responsible for Salem.
Also if he told the people around him that Salem can’t be killed that would bring the Grimm with despair
Finally we get to the real plot. After waiting so long, I'm glad you can see it now
No one can destroy or disempower Salem. The gods cursed her for a reason. All they have to do to defeat her is help her to understand what the gods want her to. It won't be easy, and may cost many more lives, to help her, but if they can, they might not need to destroy her.
FYI this isn't a spoiler, just my personal opinion based on the story they just learned.
The brothers played hot potato with ozes life.
alive, dead, alive, dead, alive... just kidding dead
"Legends. Stories scattered through time. Mankind has grown quite fond of recounting the exploits of heroes and villains, forgetting so easily that *we are remnants,* byproducts, of a *forgotten past.*
Man, *born from dust,* was strong, wise, and resourceful, but he was born into an unforgiving world..."
- Salem, season 1 opening.
Everything now makes a horrifying amount of sense. Why does Dust act like magic in crystalized form. Because it is. Who had magic? Humans did. Though it may have also come from the moon. Jury's still out on that one.
Wanna know something else neat? Go back to the first time Weiss visits the CCT Tower way back in volume 2, you'll notice as she walks in there's 4 clocks on the wall, each set to a different time, one for each kingdom. The neat part? The clocks have the sigils of their respective Huntsmen academies on them, each a representation of the Relics we just saw. From this we can now infer where each Relic is located, what each represents AND which Maiden is needed to access it;
The Lamp - Knowledge - Mistral - Spring (This one we've already seen and know pretty well. Note how it was located in a city that is noted for art and culture, writing, and whose people care about nature)
The Staff - Creation - Atlas - Winter (Hmmm, funny how the Creation Relic is located in the most prosperous and inventive society in the world, which also happens to be on a continent made entirely of ice)
The Sword - Destruction - Vacuo - Summer (A once prosperous and beautiful oasis, long ago destroyed and turned into a searing and deadly desert)
The Crown - Choice - Vale - Fall (Perhaps the kingdom with the least obvious class divides and most opportunities for its citizens (Mistral had oppressive Emperors in the past, Altas has a huge hard-on for authority and Vacuo is, well, Vacuo) and which has a large and impressive year-round autumnal forest nearby)
I could go on, making even further comparisons and such, but you get the idea.
Oh and let's just run down the checklist of Salems powers shall we?;
Absolute control over all Grimm
True magic
*True immortality*
Yeah.... it's that last one that's the problem How do you defeat that?
"You can't."
That's why he was hiding things.
Very well done!!
pretty sure the kids aren't maidens but maybe were the inspiration for them later, as the legend goes it was a old hermit living by himself making the maidens when people came to visit him, (one of his depressed lives getting cheered up by strangers)
Yes just magical girls. A later Ozma granted Maidenhood to four gentle souls much later on because they reminded him of his daughters. Then he devised the Vaults’ seals with them in mind.
Yeah, his daughters weren't maidens.
But they were inspirations for the first maidens.
I actually saw a reactor who damaged his throat shouting in amazement when he finally learned what had happened to the moon.
If you take note in the wording of Salem's punishment, her curse is only in place until she learns the value of the balance of life and death. Once she learns that lesson, she will become mortal again.
God this episode is so good, it both explains everything that has been going on at this point while also completely changing the game when it comes to the war against Salem.
I don't think Jinn was pulling anything with her "you can't" answer. Salem cannot be killed. Period. She is immortal. The God of Light specifically said that she may only rest once she accepts the natural cycle of life and death. The only other feasible solution is uniting humanity and summoning the Gods with the relics in the hope that they will deal with Salem.
Tell me that you do not understand English without saying it.
Ozpin asked Jinn "How can *I* destroy Salem?"
Jinn told Ozpin that HE can't destroy Salem.
I swear, schools do not teach anymore.
Gender studies is more important than English comprehension.
You, whatever you are, clearly excelled in painting your hair, nails, being offended, and chopping your genitals rather than learning language.
well that's the most rational and creative take I've seen someone take away from the Salem secret. I hope they enjoy the next episode! :)
This episode always makes me think back to what Oz said to Ruby back in volume 1. "I've made more mistakes than any man, woman or child" he was speaking literally. I really like that Bethany had the same thought as most of the Fandom, was that "you can't" collective or just Oz. Also it implied that their children sadly died in the fight between Oz and Salam, the tale of the lonely hermit explains how the Maidens came to be.
I love how after years of people theorizing how the moon broke, only for it to be that some angry god was basically just slamming the door on his way out
"It was you who ended their lives, made them to dig their own graves.
With your dark, sick, cruel design, convinced them their world could be saved.
Have you no shame signing them up for your war?
Train them to fight what they can't defeat, your sins are what they'll pay for."
Ozpin KNOWS he's fighting an almost unwinnable war, yet he keeps sending bodies towards Salem to just die.
This episode still gives me chills
I like to think that dust is just the pieces of the moon that fell to earth after it shattered, which is why they say it’s a limited substance, and will eventually run out. It makes sense since the dark brother is the one who gave the first humans magic (his quote “my own gift to them, used against me”), and he’s the one who touched the moon, which probably gave those pieces the magic power they possess.
Unrelated thing: It's said earlier -the Maidens are /not/ the kids. Oz sacrificed most of his magic to create them later as forces of good in the world, likely in defiance of Salem. Hence her desire to take that little remaining magic for herself (and access the relics).
Also, from what I've pieced together a very long time ago, Ozpin before his reincarnation to Ozcar: knowing the deal, he has also heard countless times "we've got your back" or any interation of that. When he said "Do you think Leo(Lionheart) was the first!?" He knows that any possible comrade can be fickle and run or betray him and work with Salem if he were to drop the whole story on them. While he has learned to fight and live with his hosts and their family, he still has a very cautious approach to letting people know or them being in his circle.
Interesting thing to realize is that at first Ozma wasn't doing what he's doing now with Oscar and probably Ozpin too where he let's them have most of the control and will eventually merge with him, but instead Ozma just completely took permanent control of the person and did whatever he wanted just using the person's body as a vessel despite the other person's soul still being there.
this is why Raven called this "Ozpin's impossible war"
37:30 Salem big bad Mommy Salami evil witch who fell into uuzi jacuzzi and got real mad
The fact that after centuries or however long it had been of humanity being in discourse, it seems clear that he has been burned many times when he openly offers info. I cant imagine people following a this person to stop someone unstoppable and on top of that he loves her, like how trustworthy could a man like that be
“How do I destroy Salem?” You can’t, she has immortality. “How do I SAVE Salem?” is the question that should be asked, and no one is asking.
Salem being an immortal baddie is good because it’s the physical representation of “evil never dies”. But, although you can’t erase evil that exists, you can STOP it before it is created. And getting to the root of said evil is the true solution. Ruby blasting the Grimm away and Salem learning the importance of Life & Death will put her to rest, but the root of her evil is where you get to the solution. That said evil being the hypocrisy of the gods. They are too focused on stopping Salem, but she can’t be. You have to save her by addressing the root issue.
(Same thing with Cinder. Cinder is not going to be redeemed, and why should she? But even if they defeat Cinder, what next? What if another Cinder pops out because nobody stopped the evil before it was created?)
also wasnt only 1 question can be answered but here she gave a whole story for 1 question
And this is the episode that made Ozpin and Salem my favorite characters and also made me start hoping that somehow, Ozpin and Salem's relationship is how they defeat her. After all, it's what started all this, it's only fitting that it helps end it. Since it pretty much confirmed that the original maidens were their children, perhaps part of Ozpin's curse was also inherited, and that's why the maidens' magic goes from host to host? Or maybe he did give four young women powers after they helped get him out of his depression, perhaps reminding him of his four daughters, and they're how he came up with the idea to give the maidens his magic in thanks. One of my biggest questions about the reincarnation thing is, does Ozpin keep his original semblance(if he had one), or does he use the semblance of his current carnation? Does he keep the semblances of his old lives? After all, the souls start separate before merging into one, so how does that work? The gods did also tell Salem how to remove her immortality, by learning the value of both life and death, she would be able to rest. But she instead kept trying to spite them, leading an army to try to kill them. Yeah, they definitely could have done something else, but Salem was also doing everything wrong. But all this adds complexities to both Ozpin and Salem that I love. (I also kinda ship them, but not as they *are* together more like I wish they were *still* together having lived together and changed for the better) but Ozpin doesn't control who his soul goes to, I'm sure many times he got reincarnated into the body of someone who already had a family, which kinda sucks cause it means he's likely lost many families, and I'm sure there's been at least one time his soul entered a woman's body, which must have been weird. The God of Light was trying to follow rules he and the God of Darkness created together, one of which is not to disrupt the balance of life and death. The god of darkness didn't really care for the rules, and was just going to do whatever he looked (as he said) but after hearing Salem lied to him because GoL wouldn't do it he realized Salem was manipulating him to bring Ozma back, she didn't actually believe only he could do it, like she had told him. They punished her for trying to manipulate them, and when the GoD destroyed humanity, GoL wanted to give humanity a second chance he knew eventually they'd evolve back into existence, so he gave Ozma the chance to help them. I don't think the reincarnation was meant to be punishment for Ozma, but it turned into one. Unlike Salem, Ozma didn't do anything wrong and i believe the GoL wanted to ensure Ozma didn't have to go through what Salem did, what he didn't count on was Ozma and Salem doing everything they did. Just my thoughts on this episode.
I will say that the four daughters weren't the Maidens because they were born with all kinds magic where the Maidens only have elemental magic and as you saw with the toy laying there it's implied that the girls were killed during the battle between there parents. I do think that the original Maidens reminded Oz of his daughters. But something you may have missed is when the God of Light was about to leave he said the planet is merely a remnant of what it once was which Remnant is the name of the planet and also since new humanity doesn't have magic they have Semblances which is a Semblance of the magic they once had. Also something else noticeable if you pause on the moment, with Oz and his new family with the two kids both kids have Silver Eyes like Ruby a trait we know is hereditary since Ruby got them Summer like Qrow said in Volume 3 but we noticed that Oz's reincarnation doesn't have Silver eyes, their brown and the wives are blue, which has lead some people in the Fandom to believe that if Oz had children during one of his lives that instead of being born with magic they'd be born with Silver Eyes but that is a theory.
actually it has never been said that Maidens are only stuck doing elemental magic. They just live in a world that just recently started experimenting with fusing dust to create other elements and effects, The Maidens should be capable of replicating those and even semblances.
@@BARALover96 Actually they changed it in Fairy Tales of Remnant that Maidens can only use elemental magic which I think was smart because then they would have been too OP
It is a common cobclusion that people come to when they first watch this episode. Probably because it is 4 girls. While Ospin may have been lying about how he made the Spring Maidens. Personally I think their children were killed in that fight, the magic that must have been flying about was too powerful for them to survive. In my opinion, their daughters were killed during the battle and the maidens were given their powers by Ospin later.
For when Ozpin asked the question for "how do I destroy Salem" the problem is that he asked a genie a question so she took it literally so she said HE can't the proper question should have been "How can Salem be destroyed?"
i honestly never thought about that delivery "you can't" but maybe ruby with her silver eyes can
I recommend u now listen "Sacrifice" ones again bc now will make more sense. This song is from Raven to Oz and after that episode u will understand more.
The god of light basically said: "You must learn for yourself why what you did was wrong. Take ALL the time you need."
And yes, those are the real Maidens. Not some silly fairy tale about an old Wizard and four young women visitors named for the seasons.
The reality is far more horrifying. Ozma created the fairy tale after the fact to explain the existence of the Maidens without implicating himself in what really happened.
The daughters died and began a cycle of death and rebirth like Ozma himself.
They don't have the memories because they were so young when they died.
I agree with you, those are the real maidens, Their power moves onto others. I think people are wrong when they say they are not the maidens
That face when your God admits you're a bad game of the sims
I think the only way to defeat Salem is to convince her how important death is. The gods told her she'd walk to world until she understood the importance of like and death.
this was the obvious answer for me too! No one can destroy her because she needs to accept death herself. She wants destruction, but she needs to understand actual loss, and how it isn't necessarily the end or evil, since death is the thing that makes life meaningful. Not sure how they'll do that considering she's so twisted at this point, but I love the direction this episode takes everything!
Because Volume 10 is in such limbo, we may never truly find out the answer to the Salem question. But over the years I have solidified my belief in that it doesn't really have anything to do with Salem, but instead in what the god of light said was his task.
To bring mankind together in harmony, THEN when the relics are brought together the gods will return and live with them again.
And when you look at what the reincarnations of Ozma have done throughout time, starting with our perspective of Ozpin, his/their goal has always been to accept humanity (and the faunus) in peace. If you remember he was the antithesis of Ironwood in always pushing peace over war.
Then when the gods return, let THEM deal with Salem.
I can't help but think it may also have to do with the God of Light's declaration of Salem's immortality "You must learn the importance of life and death. Only then may you rest." Maybe if they can somehow show Salem the importance of the cycle of life and death she will lose her immortality. How they will do that I have no idea but I'd imagine Ruby will be key maybe with her mother and maybe Jaune will also play a part with Pyrrha. They have experienced great loss but are learning to live with it and continue living their lives and their life and deaths have inspired our current heroes to become greater than they might have otherwise.
This episode changed all the rules of the series and it's great seeing you two talk about them :) Wondering and asking all the questions the FNDM had over this volume is great :D
The impression I got was that their daughters died in the fight, and that the original maidens reminded him of them.
Never thought the shattering of the moon would be explained.
35:03
You have to stick till Volume 9 for your answer.
A really old theory is that Jaune is a descendent of Salmen, so the children of Oz and Salmen may have escaped the battle without them knowing.
I honestly think that the god of light is the unreasonable one out of everyone.
So now... You know just about everything.
"You can't."
OZMA can't, but there might be someone who can.
Note: Back at the end of Volume 3, when Ruby's silver eyes flashed, it was the same light the Light God emitted when he changed into his Dragon form, the shockwave killing all the Grimm around him.
"Victory is in a simple soul."
"When you fail and you rely on your smaller soul, know you send her to the same pitiful demise."
Ruby.
I'll have more to say with next weeks episode, but for this one i will say one of my only gripes is exactly what Ken said, that you come out of this episode not really thinking Ozpin did anything bad when they built it up as some deep dark horrible thing that he did and is hiding it from them. It's the one thing i feel is missing from this backstory.
I love the episode, don't get me wrong, but i was expecting things like Oz being careless with peoples lives and sacrificing hundreds of people in pursuit of his mission or something along those lines, or him somehow being responsible for the way Salem is created. I didn't want him to be irredeemable or be revealed as the True Evil of the story or anything like that, but something really objectively immoral that is unquestionably his fault that he is obviously ashamed of but would still put his character into question, something that shows he's not a Pure beacon of ultimate good morals and wisdom as one might initially think in this classic Good VS Evil story. I think it would have served to make him more complex and interesting than he already is and it would ultimately lead to the same short and long-term results in the plot (no spoilers).
The lore drop when this came out was insane
Remember sometime Cinder said way back in... Volume 2? Maybe 3? "It's not about overpowering the enemy, it's about taking away what power they have." Definitely proud of you for keeping the sentiment in mind.
In regards to what happened to the kids, they died in the battle between Oz and Salem. The maidens are not actually reincarnations of them. Oz gave a portion of his power to create the maidens, because the original 4 maidens reminded him of his children.
Salem is a victim of circumstance, this whole chain of events started with Salem being locked up by her cruel father. Ozma freed her and they were in love, when Ozma died she hasn't development the emotional coping mechanism to deal with his death, how can you expect a young girl who's been imprisoned all her life to have a well balanced view and understanding of the world?. Just wondering, where is this selfishness the gods speak of come from, because I don't see it??. They are confusing selfishness with grief and naivety.
Salems first mistake was lying to the god of darkness, a greving girl lied to a god to get her loved one back, is that really such a massive crime?, Are you telling me you wouldn't do the same?, it's not like she killed someone.
The god of light said he didn't want to break the balance with his brother so he rightfully sent Salem away. But in his arrogance and pride, the god of darkness gave Salem what she wanted, he was more than happy to break the balance to get one over his brother . But what did the gods do then???, They both broke the balance of life and death by making Salem immortal.
What happened to the balance that these brothers preach about?, is it one rule for them and one rule for the rest. These gods sound like hypocrites to me. What the god of darkness should of done was sent Salem away, just like the god of light did, instead he broke the balance with his brother and caused these chain of events.
They left an immortal being on remnent in a pissed off state against them and they didn't stop to think that there might be consequences by doing so. The god of light through Salem under the bus just to keep his brother in line and said nothing else about his brothers betrayal.
Salem lying is irrelevant, because the god of darkness shouldn't of broken the pact with his brother in the first place. These balances and cheaks are in place for a reason and the god of darkness should of sent Salem away, she needed to learn to grieve, accept her loss and move on, instead they punished her and turned her bitter towards them.
And surprise surprise Salem frustration grow because she couldn't die, pushing her into a corner by turning humanity against them. We then got a second form of hypocrisy from the god of darkness, he committed global genocide and collect punishment for the so called crimes of one woman and a handful of people. Where is the so called balance in that??, I thought these gods were meant to have balance with each other ,the god of light didn't even try to stop him.
When the gods left, Salem believed she could kill herself by falling into the pool of darkness, this clearly changed her, she lots her ability to feel any empathy, she became a being of destruction. This Salem is very different from the human salem, learning to manipulate wasn't something new, but being a killer is something that came from the pool of darkness.
We then saw more hypocrisy from the god of light, he created a second immortal, (breaking his balance for a second time) why would you preach balance and break it at every opportunity you get. We learnt that breaking the balance brings chaos as we saw with Salem, so why would he do it again??. He could just kill Salem , but it's all about punishment with these two and nothing more.
They could stop all the evil on Remnant right now, but no, they rather teach Salem a lesson. How pathetic are they. The god of light washed his hands of remnent and told Ozma to deal with the mess him and his brother created in the first place, personally I don't think these gods are fit to run a bath, let alone a planet and why would you put yourself on the same pedestal as your creation?, why would you live amongst them.
The god of light said we will learn from our mistakes, but he didn't, because he made a second immortal. Interesting how he bought Ozma back when he needed too, but when Salem asked him for the same request he said no. This whole conflict started because of balance, even more hypocrisy from these two gods. Did the god of light ever tell Ozma the reason why Salem did what she did?, the reason why salem did it was for you??.
I'm not saying Salem is faultless, but the consequences and life experiences which were dealt to her were some of the worst and the majority of the blame goes to these two gods who haven't taken any responsibility for their participation and left Ozma to deal with this mess.
Let's say the gods do come back again, is the god of darkness going to through a second temper tantrum if someone else lies to him?. Is he going to kill everybody a second time?. All humans are flawed , Salem is flawed, Ozpin is flawed, the god of darkness should know this because he created them and gave them the ability to chose light and dark, what's he going to do, kill them all again if they don't match his expectations.
I think there's plenty of blame to go around starting with those two hypocrite gods, Ozma to blame too, because he knocked her up 4 times, set her off, told her about the relics and tried to run of with the kids, he gave salem all the motivation she needed, before that she wasn't causing humanity any problems and living in the forest by herself.
And yes Salem is to blame too, because her negative life experiences shaped and moulded her and she never learnt from it, but I don't put the blame solo on her like you do.
[in Nora's voice] EXACTLY!
Honestly, i feel sorry for Salem, despite her actions. One should remember, that she is OLD. She went through total extinction of all mankind and she was ALONE for millenias. Yet, she loved Ozma so much, that even in her "post-Grimm-pool" state she immediately recognized him and was geniunely happy about reunion.
And then Ozma threw everything away. Instead of finally living his life and balancing Salem, he betrayed his loving (yet unstable because, you know, Grimm pool and millenias of lonelyness) wife, put their children in the harm way, and for what? Some gloden dude's (oh, Taylor Hebert would be sooo... upset) orders?
And yes, Gods here are the worst
Salem is representative of the worst of humanity. Selfish, egomaniacal, deceitful, petty, ignorant, unwilling to learn, unwilling to change and unwilling to take responsibility.
another thing to note that rubs me the wrong way is that the first thing Light says to Salem, 'I understand your pain', I'm just like... how? He is an immortal, entirely not-human being who only has semi-occasional spats with his equally immortal brother who seems to be the only family either of them has, how could he even possibly hope to comprehend the pain Salem is feeling having just lost a loved one, let alone the first person to truly love Salem enough to put her wants and needs first, something her cruel father certainly never did? And after seeing that pain he claims to understand be placed on full display via yelling to his face, his only response is too say no and just kick her straight out, not showing even the smallest amount of sympathy, let alone empathy, indeed when he makes Salem immortal, he says he pitied her, no understanding, no empathy, just pity.
That to me perfectly sums up that despite creating humanity, neither brother truly understands how humans work or particularly care about them, I mean honestly, Light is the one who refers to Remnant/humanity as a failed experiment as if they were mere lab-rats before leaving, not seeming especially broken up about the planet-wide extinction that just happened, and even claims that without them, humanity can never be whole, something I still can't quite figure out besides potentially the lack of magic
@@j.w.sraptorsquad982Another thing to note, the dark brother created the grimm and they still exist and kill humans on Remnant, WTF.
Personally if salem is going to go out, I hope she takes the pity gods with her. I would love salem to take them down
Ironically, Salem had settled as just a lonely recluse in her run down house stewing in her hate and grief and not caring about humanity. With the god of light bringing Ozma back and them reuniting it further caused more harm to the world as she now had a mission once she figured she could get the relics as a last ditch attempt to die.
There is never any confirmation that their children were the original maidens. As far as we know, the kids all died in the battle with Ozma and Salem. They could be, but so far it has all been fan speculation.
This is when you say it. First you say "Raven," then you say "was," and then you say "right."
Fun Facts
Fact 1: Miles Luna considers this to be one of the most complicated episodes the RWBY crew has ever made, on every level.
Not counting credits, this is the longest episode of RWBY to date.
Fact 2: Jinn refers to the Grimm as "The Brother's Grimm", most likely referencing The Brothers Grimm, two brothers responsible for the famous classic collection of German fairy tales, which includes Little Red Riding Hood, Snow White and Hansel and Gretel.
Fact 3: Ozma and Salem's daughters wear dresses reminiscent of the four Maidens, blue (Winter, who also has ice crystal-like details), pink (Summer, whose yellow skirt also has a big Sun), green (Spring, whose bow and dress trimming also has a leaf-like pattern) and orange (Fall, with the upper parts in brown, similar to Amber's clothes). The eldest daughter in blue also has a chain headdress and belt like the ones worn by Jinn.
Fact 4: The chapter was inspired by the Harry Potter series of novels and television series Game of Thrones.
Fact 5: The whole episode was mocapped in a single weekend.
Fact 6: The scene where Salem throws herself into the pool of Grimm was inspired by the video game "Brutal Legend".
Fact 7: Originally, "The Lost Fable" was chapter 3 and 4, but they combined them into one.
Fact 8: Originally, there was going to be more dialogue from the main cast during this episode, but they decided against it.
Fact 9: The toy dog that one of the children has is a Wizard of Oz reference.
Fact 10: The children for one of Ozma's reincarnations have silver eyes.
The maidens aren't Oz and Salem's children, as cool as that may be.
The story of the seasons explain that the powers were gifted to four women by a hermit wizard, and Oz does confess that yes, he did give these women some of his power(similar to Qrow and Raven).
After the fight with Salem calms down, a shot of a stuffed animal, one that was earlier seen carried by their children, is on the ground in the rubble. The children didn't survive the fight, sadly.
As for Oz's question about destroying Salem, well, that's a very astute observation by Beth. There are hypotheses about how Salem will go down - some think the statue of Salem in this chapter is foreshadowing Ruby turning Salem to stone, like how the wyvern was in Vol 3. Another is a future character with an interesting semblance(though personally I hope this semblance is used on Cinder). Yet another is that Salem will be persuaded to have a change of heart.
One final random tangent: Jaune may be related to Salem and/or Oz. Juane Arc's arc symbol on his shield can be seen in Salem's home castle(upside down in this episode, BUT rightside up in RWBY Fairy Tales) and on the bottom of Salem's dress. Also, it would explain why Tyrian is interested in Jaune... just a thought.
11:25
You can really see Bethany really starting to dislike Salem.
13:43
Yes.
24:53
This is very, very, very, important. Look closely at the children Oz fathered. Note every detail.
25:40
Jinn cannot lie. Djinn have to tell the truth, but if your question is not correct, they can only answer your question truthfully within the parameters of your question. You must be careful with your phrasing.
As far as Oz’s questions, his wording matters. He asked how to DESTROY Salem, but neglected to ask how to BEAT her.
"that looks like the tree in the vault"
Yes, yes it does. And that tree had water underneath it.... that Cinder fell into. Is it the same pool of water? If it is the same pool of water, does it still hold the same power as the Gods have left the planet? Stay tuned....
Crazy theory, what if the tree in the relic of knowledge vault is the same one here in this episode and the reason Cinder survived is because she was secretly made immortal. It most likely isn't the case but it would be kinda cool.
The thing he wanted to keep a lid on was Salems immortality. If you havd a super powerful enemy who CANT be defeated, all you can do is hold them back while you bleed and eventually die.
Most people would either just give up and try to run OR kill themselves at that point.
Thats when fear, paranoia and missteust become the most dangerous thing of all: becouse then, EVERYBODY has thier finger on yhe trigger, and its only a matter of time till domepnes sweety palms SLIP!
Gonna need a cleanup on aisle Moon...
I recommend going back to the Volume 2 soundtrack and listening to 'Sacrifice' again. It's a song from Raven to Ozpin, accusing him of throwing away the lives of those following him - things she alluded to in Volumes 4 and 5, and now make quite a bit more sense, like she knew about this stuff...
And also relistening to 'Divide' from the Volume 3 with Salem taunting Ozpin of the inevitability of defeat when fighting something that cannot be stopped.
ok it hasent been said yet but the keepers of the relics have a peculiar way of speaking. the question asked was "how do i destroy salem?" and the answer was "you cant". that leaves the door open. it is not "she cant be" its "YOU cant". now that could be the only way she will end is if she learns her lesson or maybe there is another way and it just isnt known yet. it is a theory (do i hear mat pat?) but it is a possibility. btw this is my fav lore of all of RWBY. this was so well done. oh and remember the intro from episode 1 "man was born from dust". its a debate but it is believed that dust is the left over magic, the people from that age or both. so that might be the way.
the most popular theory about Ozma's 3rd question to Jinn is that it is both right and wrong. much like a wish to a Monkey's Paw, the words used matter. he asked, "how do I destroy Salem?" and she answered, "You can't." however, the question that should've been asked was "how can Salem be destroyed?" the theory is that she only answered that Ozma can't destroy her, not that she can't be destroyed at all.
the maidens dont reincarnate like Oz does though. only their powers go to the woman who is in their last thoughts (unless the woman is too old, I guess Salem would count as too old. in which case the powers go to someone random). personalities dont seem to be attached. This is no spoiler btw.
So, for the maidens only the power transfers to the one the last maiden has thoughts on. No memories nor personality passes on.
I believe that this episode explains the overall plan for Salem. Gather the Relics together, summon the gods, erase the world, and finally die.
She has been living for more time than can easily be explained.. All she truly wants is to die.
Salem was cursed to walk the face of the world so long as the planet turns, until she learns the importance of life and death. As a threat, she's the best way to unite humanity before the day of judgement. She works from shadows, trying to divide humanity and collect the relicts to bring gods and destruction. That's her win conditions, but humanity can win with two ways: 1st is to show her the importance of life and 2nd is to be united when the gods return. She can't be defeated because she's immortal, but she can lose.
I have seen a number of reactors jumping to the conclusion that the children were the original Maidens, and while I can see where this comes from, I do not believe this to be the case and that they really were killed during the duel with no reincarnations later. The theory I have seen, and currently believe to be the closest to accurate, is based around the fairy-tale, 'The Four Maidens', which is backed up by Ozpin's account in the previous volume, about him granting a great deal of his own magical power to four young women (most likely during one his lives he spent 'attempting to forget at all'), perhaps because something about the original maidens reminded him of his own daughters and gave him hope to start trying to unite humanity again. I feel like this can be backed up by that fact that while Ozma fought Salem to a mutual standstill, Ozpin lost to/was killed by Cinder, someone who basically only had less than a quarter of his full power, and for all the revelations in this episode, I see no reason for Ozpin to have lied about having a dwindling amount of magic left
One question was used up from the past. I suspect Raven, Summer Rose, and Leo Lionheart may have accessed this first question and reacted in different ways. It's also important at some point to watch the RWBY Fairy Tales for some more background hints. The "gods" seem to be pursuing a program of experimentation with the subject humans, not just setting them up and then abandoning Remnant, but the results are not yet fully formed - discussing any more might reveal spoilers. Humanity, part 2, probably evolved on a super fast time scale due to the magic-imbued DNA from the animals, and the side effect would have been the faunus as a subspecies. I know, speculation speculation speculation***.
Easily the best episode of the show honnestly
The difference is the Gods had a balance, one has the power to give life the other to bring death, each expressed their powers accordingly. Salem only cared for herself, discarded other humans only to get what she wanted. The Gods didn't really "kill" everyone, they were ascended to the afterlife to restart the cycle, so they are at peace, but Salem remained so that in her loneliness she would understand that death has its purpose. Instead she said no, she is much like Adam, they both can't accepted the truth and the natural way of things. Ozma was the purest that ascended as a result they chose him fit to fix things, this time without the god's intervention. If humans can fix each other themselves then they are redeemable, if not then they are a mistake and this time they will be gone for good, no life will continue. When Ozma returned she forgot the purpose of her immortality and only cared to reunite, she saw humans as a second thought and the only way to change them is to beat it into them. With this mindset humans will never come to peace, to bring balance one must beg forgiveness when they make mistakes, and the other must understand and led them that forgiveness, you must lift the log from both ends otherwise the log will be too heavy. This will never happen so long as Salem's influence is present, thus humans are deemed to follow her example, lie, cheat, steal, KILL, until you have what yours. Nothing matters, but YOUR needs. The exact lifestyle Adam and many others are leading in the current day.
As for the knowledge, knowing there are demi-gods among them will cause more chaos. The story will not only help Ozma but cause many to side with her, in the beginning no one ever stepped into the god of death's domain, everyone agreed no good came from there. Until Salem walked in, that is how it all began, she's now the demi-god of death in current day. You don't want people walking into her domain and making the same mistake.
Great parallels you've made!!!
"What makes them worse gods than the Brothers, though?"
"She wanted to wipe out humanity!"
"THEY LITERALLY ALREADY DID!"
Mind... Blown. I had never considered that angle.
The children died in the crossfire. Another reason for Oz's shame and Salem's hate. He created the maidens because the four sisters reminded him of his daughters.
One of my favorite episodes of the entire series, just because of the lore bomb.
30:21 ufff I understand you sister. she knows things
*writer's note: Don't give Ken powers, he would turn evil*
Woo! You finally made it to the big one! And yes, a lot of the previous chapters take on a very different look after this reveal, but not in a bad way. The set up was there, but this piece of the puzzle you just couldn't really guess. However, I think most peoiple agree at this point (writers may have confirmed, I don't remember off the top of my head) that the children were _not_ actually the first maidens, those came later, during one of Oz's periods of "trying to forget" (hence the part of that story where he is a hermit wizard who has nothing). We don't even know that it was four sisters that visitied him, he could have made any or all of the story up as an explanation for the origins of the maidens, and he certainly doesn't seem to have known how the powers would be passed on, since as Qrow and Glenda mentioned back in V3 they had to figure some of those out on their own. If Oz knew, he could have just told them. Certainly they knew he was functionally immortal, because you'll recall Qrow never said he was dead, just missing, and wasn't surprised to see him when Oscar showed up.
Great reaction, looking forwards to your next one!
You can't even take her power away, the only way to deal with Salem is to redeem her... That's what the Light god implied when he cursed her.
Ozma accepted the offer of god of light because Salem is still there. At first it was the only thing the reason he was brought back, aside for leading humanity to unity. He still love her, despite what the elder brother said, until now...or maybe.
Notice the question Ozpin asked “ how do *I* destroy Salem” not how can Salem be destroyed or how can humanity beat Salem Ozpin only ever thought of how he could do it not whether or not it’s possible just how *he* can do it