as a trans girl I absolutely hate the term guys because I keep thinking about it like most people around me do: not gender neutral, only used to refer to men. same thing in spanish tbh
I’ve always used it gender neutrally but I’ve been trying to break the habit because ik not everyone feels that way, same with dudes and bros, it is weird that all of the common terms are masculine, I have been trying to substitute them with stuff like y’all and folks instead
If we bring up “guys” than we also need to talk about bro., brother, dawg, cat, man, dude, boy, boi, sis, honey, and sweety. How many of these are gender neutral? Does who is saying it matter? For example if a man says “okay, honey. “ it sounds feminine, but if a girl says it, it doesn’t.
As a kid growing up in the US in the 70s, there was a children's show on public television called "The Electric Company" that started with someone shouting, "Hey you guys!" before the intro. (You can look it up here on youtube. Morgan Freeman and Rita Moreno were on it.) I can't remember a time when I didn't use "guys" as a gender neutral term.
In the late 2000s they rebooted that show and used that same intro. I hated it Bc I all ways sat close to the tv and felt like they where yelling in my ear. It was one of the main reasons I stopped watching tv and got into gaming.
I agree with what many people are saying, it's very contextual. In western American English, at least relative to my region what I personally hear is this: 1. "Hey guys" as a greeting is rarely used or interpreted as anything but neutral, it's been used that way for decades. 2. "Those guys" in the sense of a group of people is masculine with a small amount of wiggle room, you generally don't hear people call a group of mostly stereotypically female presenting people "Guys" 3. "That guy" talking about a single person is firmly masculine, when is the last time you've heard someone call a stereotypically female presenting person a guy? My guess is never. "That guy with the bow" would almost always be interpreted as a man with a bow.
"when is the last time you've heard someone call a stereotypically female presenting person a guy?" Being From The Midwest, Not Only Am I Pretty Sure I've Heard Other People Do That, But I Myself Have Done It, Which I Guess Just Goes To Show How It Varies Regionally.
@@rateeightx That's the problem with pinning down these kinds of things. Even in an age of mass communication we have to remember that language is very fluid. Even within the same language we're seperated by our culture, state, country, hobbies, ideologies, ect. more so than most people realize.
RE "undeniably neutral": The fact that the implication is in dispute, including in the US, was kind of the point of the video. Many people use "hey guys" as a gender neutral greeting, but this subset does mean this greeting is only used neutrally. I challenge your description "undeniable". [gloves slap slap] Here is a denial. More important than the proportion of times that greeting is used with a gendered implication: Language and communication is much more than how it is *used*. It is just as much how it is *received*. If I say to you "cheese fiend the shoebill" and by that phrase I mean "have a seat", just because I *used* this collection of words to mean an invitation to rest does not actually give that implication to the phrase. If you (and many other people I say this to) understand it to mean something other than an offer of a chair, then what I used it for is not the actual meaning. (Neither is how you understood it necessarily the "actual" meaning. Because there is a disconnect between how this phrase was used and how it was understood (and probably much variability in how it's understood, depending on the recipient), it simply can't be considered to *have* a single actual meaning.) Perhaps cheese fiend the shoebill is a reference or an in-joke amongst my friends, and for us it is both used and understood to be equivalent to "have a seat". Just because it has this mutually understood meaning for the people I often talk to does not give it the property of having this meaning for others. Also see: the multiple ways to interpret the phrase "have a seat" itself. Is it actually an invitation/offer, or is it a command? Does it imply a concern about the weariness of the listener, or is it an effort to silence the listener? Do both speaker and listener always interpret it the same way? So if many people use "hey guys" as a gender neutral greeting, but it is received by many people (including people throughout the western US, where I live and grew up) as gendered, you can't really say that the neutrality is "undeniable". If you had described "hey guys" more along the lines of generally neutral, predominantly neutral, even overwhelmingly (but not absolutely) neutral, I'd probably agree with you. I do agree with your points 2 & 3, and appreciate how you clearly and succinctly you made your explanations. Obviously this is something I have yet to achieve, haha. Where I think point 1 is inaccurate is in suggesting that the neutrality of "hey guys" as a greeting is unquestionable, unanimously agreed, perfect, indisputable, not under discussion, undeniable. It is not nearly as clear cut and decided as that, even within the regional dialect you specified.
@@milantoth6246 I hadn't considered this, thanks for bringing it up. I don't think it's quite right for me to add though, I have little experience with the phrase outside online interactions and I wanted to focus on my region of america specifically. Your comment should be enough to at least bring it to peoples' attention.
I tend to use “guys” as gender-neutral, but a singular “guy” is still masculine. However, “dude” is gender-neutral in both the singular and plural. I also like to joke that, while “boy” is masculine, “boi” is gender-neutral.
On guy and guys I think the same, but being a teen of the 90s the word dude is masculine loaded still for me. Certainly happy for the image of a dude to be claimable across genders.
I noticed your last point as well! In classical Latin, direct address often uses a different form of the name (Marcus would be Marce), so this kind of exception for address is quite an old concept.
The thing I noticed within the gay community is that the term ''girl'' is also sometimes used as gender-neutral. Actually, I've seen cisgendered gay men (most often flamboyant guys) referring to one another as ''girl''. I find it unusual, but it somehow works for them, so I have nothing against it. Just an observation.
I see what you mean; I believe they've started using that word because they acted "girly" (like, way back, 80's or 90's, perhaps even more back), and it hit it off from there
I've also seen things like the phrase "Queen" or "yas queen" - which I believe does have the male version "king" - although I myself have used the word, and had used on me, "queen" (P.s. I'm not gay... idk, I just feel like the term would be more common them) personally, I'm fine with either now.
In Dutch the word for "boys" can also be used to just call a group of kids no matter the gender of those kids, so I have absolutely no bad feelings if someone uses "guys", "bro" or any other kinda masculine sounding word to name a group that includes me.
in spanish it's also the word for a group of kids, but it's specifically a group that includes at least one male kid (it can be 99 female kids but if there's one male kid you're suddenly disrespectful towards that kid) maybe that's why I hate the term even english lol
Well, we use it like that, but the whole thing in this video is 'just because we do, doesn't mean we should. Should we?'. Just because you don't mind, doesn't mean nobody minds or nobody should mind. Not saying I disagree in this case, especially because 'jongens' has its roots in our word for 'young', not necessarily in man. Jongen (and its variations in time) has always been short for 'young man', which remains the more formal way to address a boy. Besides, 'jongen' as a plural means 'younglings', as 'jong' means 'youngling'. Jongens can be considered a neutral double plural alongside a masculine regular plural. Though I have a different stance when it comes to addressing a mixed group of children as 'jongetjes', or 'boys' when speaking English. But if we look in other European languages everything becomes a lot more split between 'male' and 'female' without alternative. In Spanish, like ahre mentioned, neuter uses the male endings. AMAB gender neutral individuals don't have much recourse and it's why '-e' instead of '-o' has been appearing to refer to non-binary people, or to mixed groups. I've seen Latino used as Latine for these two cases, though nothing strict. An enby friend of mine uses 'Latine' for themselves, but still uses 'Latino' for the group
@@deldarel just like how the video said, just because some people feel like a word is too masculine to use it for all people doesn't have to mean that that's the case (anymore). To my understanding "guys" is just a neutral term without a specific gender unless the context makes it clear you're talking about men and most (if not all) people I know would probably say the same.
You know, I learned something today. The gender bias of a word can change over time, but still have profound impact on the day-to-day interactions of you puny humans.
I used to work in office with a lot of men and no women and used to say,on arriving in the morning, "Morning gents" when some women started in the office I decided this was potentially sexist and started saying "Morning folks" and have used it ever since. Time to reanimate this unfashionable word.
@@songcramp66 I mean, I've heard it used plenty in the UK. My old English teacher used to say it all the time, for example, and I use it pretty often. Sidenote, it's funny how folks usually applies to a smaller, more intimate group than folk. Also, weirdly I've heard Americans refer to their parents as their folks in audio media, but _never_ written down. Maybe the word just doesn't look right written down like that? Maybe I've just missed the examples. But "your folks were worried" I always heard but never read.
I have a "guys" experience. I'm old enough to predate the internet by a good margin, let alone TH-cam. But in my part of the US, the plural "guys" has been gender-neutral from at least when I was a young child. I learned it that way from the start. Even the educational TV show "The Electric Company" started every episode with "Hey you guys!", clearly not meant as gendered. So imagine my surprise and confusion when I offended someone from another part of the country by using it. I had no idea it was ever a male term in the plural, although it was certainly a male term in the singular. It still bugs me, because we have so few gender-neutral ways of talking about or to groups that it feels like a pretty serious loss if we can't use that one.
As for Guy Fawkes, I’m willing to bet that outside the UK, he’s only known by those who’ve seen V For Vendetta. After seeing it and did research on it’s accuracy and enjoyed it even more. It’s a November 5th staple in my house for years now.
@@likebot. let's say you're from Poland, you have no relatives from the UK, and you've never been or planning to go to the UK. Why should you learn about this obscure holiday? Chances are you haven't heard about it at all! (and how can you learn something if you don't even know it exists?)
@@Yorick257 That's absolutely correct, and doesn't argue with my statement, which is what I assume you're trying to do. But chances are also that a Pole with no relatives in the UK might read.
I’ve also noticed “dude” has become more gender neutral. For example “who is the dude who taped a banana to a wall?” Or “some dude just cut me off in traffic”.
Guys was commonly used as a gender neutral term in my youth, back in the 70's. Some folks would fuss about it but they were in the minority. I feel perfectly included when referred to as 'guys' and I use it in the all inclusive sense.
I think when using it to describe someone, "guy" is mostly masculine (e.g. "He's a guy, you know.") but in most other contexts (especially slang) I see it as more gender neutral (e.g. "get a load of this guy!"). Though in plural, apart from the describe someone example it's way more used neutrally :0 I still avoid using "guy(s)" too much though (outside friend groups at least) since I don't accidentally want to exclude anyone with it, and besides coming up with new terms is fun :)
I think the use of both “guy” and “buddy” singularly refers to males. We have a history of including females in the overall masculine term when it’s mixed such as actors, gay rights, etc. If it specifically women we might specify “actresses” or “lesbians”, etc. Although “guy” itself started as a slang term, using it as gender neutral is even more slang and conversational.
Big rule of thumb: If someone asks you to not refer to them as "guys", just don't do it 👍 I'm also a firm user of the term "buddy" to anyone and everyone :]
I would respect their decision, but that sort of thing would make me feel like I was walking on eggshells around them and shatter my trust in speaking naturally around them. Since if something as innocuous as being included in a 'hey guys' when referring to a group they are in upsets them, what else would upset them by accident? I wouldn't know and now I'm always on my toes.
Or people can not try to dictate the way I talk because they can't handle the evolution of language and the existence of dialects that are not their own.
I don't think "guy" is gender neutral. It has that one use that's (sometimes) seen as such, but in every other usage context it's unambiguously masculine. If I ask someone how many guys they've slept with, they're gonna think of men. If I talk about a classroom of students and say "the guys did (x) while the...", you're probably expecting me to follow with what the girls did meanwhile. I'd wager the reason a lot of women don't like it, and the point that got me over to dislike that usage too, is that it's kinda like the "generic he" argument all over again. We don't really see traditionally feminine terms taking on neutral meanings, and this imbalance makes male the default because the traditionally male term gets to be neutral. And weirdly enough, I, as a nonbinary person, am fine with being called a guy. I even call myself that sometimes. But I won't pretend "guy" is gender-neutral, even though it feels (to me) less poignantly masculine than other masculine words like "man" or "boy". It's kinda a way in which I can do masculinity without fully committing to "man", which is why I like it. But it's also why I've stopped using it unless I know the person/people being referred to is/are cool with it.
Guy isn't gender neutral, but guys (referring to a group) is. Just like dude is. Girls will call each other dude all the time where I live, for example, and they obviously don't think they're male.
Yeah, there is an expectation that being considered part if a male collective is supposed to be ok unless you are fussy, but you had better not call a group with a couple men "ladies".
i had no idea the name "Guy" comes from "Guido", which is still a somewhat present name in germany (not particularly common, but not super unusual either). anyway, i like the trend of words becoming gender-neutral. gendered language is a needless complication anyway…
When I’m referring to a group of men, I say “guys.” When I’m referring to a group of women, I say “gals.” When I’m referring to a group of both, I say “guys and gals.”
I've been "one of The Guys" since college days, when my friend group consisted of 4 or 5 guys and me. When Pat started dating another woman at ENMU, she became one of The Guys too, though I was one of The original Guys. It's really never bothered me how the term is used, as long as the meaning is clear in the moment.
Growing up in the upper Midwest USA, the term "you guys" was already morphing to be a generic term in the 90s. It was used as the 'northern and cultured' alternative to the souther "y'all." Although "you guys" was generic, the term 'guy' was still male, and 'guys' more male. Sitting on the same level as "dude." Like you wouldn't refer to a single woman as a 'dude' but you could address a mixed group as 'dudes' or 'dudes and dudettes' if you were being cute.
Another issue is that language is very geographical, and trying to police it to cater to everyone will just make many people very confused and upset. Language is messy, it evolves, and context is key.
Last night I decided to put your second book on the living room coffee table for the rest of the house. While explaining the book to the roomies, I noticed I hadn't seen one of your videos in a long time. Turns out, I had binged your videos months ago, without ever clicking subscribe. Don't worry, I fixed that.
Before this I thought it was a thing English inherited from French, where everything is gendered and groups of masculine and feminine things are referred to with masculine pronouns like "ils", but the TH-cam theory makes a lot more sense with how recently "guys" has become popular as a gender-neutral word
I love that Patrick watches Foil Arms and Hog makes me love this channel even more. Guys has always been used to refer to a group of people regardless of gender growing up for me at least
In a business or work setting, we use "Everyone" or "Everybody" or "All" for the collective term to avoid conflicts and unintentional hurt feelings, but in more informal settings, "Guys" is go-to word among friends and friendly co-workers.
I was born in Los Angeles in 1968, & the plural of "you" was "you guys." There was no other plural "you." It was not gender-specific. It was just the plural form of "you" which EVERYONE used, on the West Coast of the US in the 1970s anyhow. Our family moved to Gawd-foresaken Arkansas in 1981, where I was ridiculed relentlessly for using a "masculine" term as if it were gender-neutral. In the South, everyone knows the plural form of "you" is "y'all." ✌🏼
I went to university with a Guy. Great to see the Name Explain test card in this one, as well as the Foil, Arms & Hog mention! Interesting discussion too.
As someone who is not a guy, i hear this all the time. I understand the usage, but that doesn't mean i feel great about being lumped into something that i am not.
Im a guy, but I've known many "not guys" who were uncomfortable with the term, along with "dude". It's hard to change your vocabulary, but it's good to try.
@@moralkombat66 The thing is, what are we supposed to say? "hello human beings" "hello people in this room" "texas" "hello gender-neutral term" The word is so embedded in our vocabulary that the meaning has changed, people need to understand and let go of the past, or give us some better suggestions.
If you choose to feel excluded by the word "guys", that's on you. Most people who say, "Hey guys" or "You guys" aren't intending to exclude anyone but rather to address everyone quickly so they can get to the next thing. It's you choose to take it personally and feel excluded, that's on you. Personally, I think there's plenty of other things in the world used to exclude this group or that group from a particular thing without getting upset by some innocuous word like "guys".
Yeah, when people say "guys", we are not trying to exclude every single girl in the room, we are not instantly massive misogynists that need to be hanged, guys is now gender neutral. More people should understand this.
I really appricate you taking the time to listen to and include trans voices in this discussion. My girlfriend is trans so ive tried to avoid using "guys" when I'm referring to any group with her in it. This of course is easier if I just try to remove it entirely from my vocab. On the other hand as someone with a passion for language and a love of purposefully misusing words until they have a new meaning, the gender-neutral evolution of "guy" and "dude" make me extremely happy. I'd wager there are some trans men who get gender euphoria from being referred to as "guy' and "dude' as well. Its unfortunate that the same word can bring such different feelings to different people. My hope is still that the word continues to be normalized as a gender neutral term and that eventually all the lovely people discovering their gender in the future won't associate it specifically with one gender enough for it to be triggering. Personally I've always associated the terms "guys' and "dude/dudes" with being gender-neutral. Kinda in the way the Spanish "amigos" includes men and women. Getting older I get the issues when gendering language to such a degree, but as a kid those things correlated perfectly to me. Like everyone is included in amigos/guys/dudes but a sinular amigo or guy is a man, while personally I see dude as being for everyone in the in either form. That being said I don't call my girlfriend "dude" (or any trans woman for that matter). Rather be safe than sorry when it comes to hurting other people!
The fact that there is a gender specific word pair (several variations as you mentioned) for "guys" indicates to me that it is a gendered word. Unless it is in a situation like "man" which pulls double meaning as a mature male of the human species and shorthand for the species itself as a whole. It then appears that "guy" falls into the same problem as "man" because the generic term is also a specific term for a category of people among the larger population. As with "man" this usage thereby suggests that the "default" or "normal" specimen of that population is described by that term, with others in that population being variations on that.
i don't know how many people share this experience but i grew up hearing it _only_ used in neutral contexts and then it actually sounded so WRONG when i started being exposed to people using the word "guys" to specify the males in a group setting or something only in my teen years on, and it honestly still sounds weird to me and probably always will lol ?
In general the male term is used when referring to a mixed group that includes males, that's not new and it's not limited to English. Some people are okay with that and some people strongly prefer actual gender-neutral terms rather than male terms used in a gender-neutral way. I guess over time the prevailing usage will rewrite the definition, but as you say older folks will remember what the word meant ten years ago and will still see it as a term for men, not a term for everybody.
I do find it odd that it's mostly traditionally masculine-gendered terms that have shifted towards being used by many as gender-neutral terms, rarely do you see it happen to feminine-gendered terms. Like guys, dude, bro, etc. Why is it masculine-gendered terms specifically? Why doesn't it happen to feminine-gendered terms anywhere near as much? I suppose it doesn't help that, as a trans woman, sometimes I get people going out of their way to call me masculine-gendered terms even after we politely ask them not to or I get people arguing about with "something something language change" that completely misses the point or sometimes people start bellyaching over walking on eggshells or something because I or another trans woman asked them to not call her "bro" (seriously, it's not that hard or unreasonable). So that basically ruined those words for me. But I am curious why it seems like traditionally masculine-gendered terms are used in gender-neutral ways more than traditionally feminine-gendered terms. Seems to happen in a lot of other languages as well. ~Red
With my group of friends "jongens" is gender neutral and is translated to boys, however we say "boys" if we mean the men in particular or to be silly. "Gasten" is like guys a gender neutral term too but can also refer to guests. Tbh we also use "meiden" to refer to the group jokingly if we have a feminine atmosphere, which can we translated into girls but the youg adult version.
My mom and younger (female) cousin have been battling over "dude" for the past ten years or so. My cousin uses "dude" for everyone and everything, completely removed from gender. My mom absolutely insists on "dudette" for women and is quick to correct my cousin every time. This is always met with my cousin shooting my mom a look of "wow, you crazy old woman."
Thank you Name Explain for this subject. I once many years ago, worked in the accounting department of a local law firm and was the only man in that department, there were several women. When I would leave for the day it became an issue of how to say goodbye, should I say bye ladies or bye guys. Ultimately bye guys stuck, because it was natural and saying bye ladies didn't feel right to me, it felt wrong or even sexist. Bye guys sounded natural and no one ever complained and said bye right back and we all got along really well. This was when internet was just starting to grow. I think what words you use depends on the situation and relationship to the people you are conversing. Look at your examples at end of your video if someone through their personal experience finds "guys" problematic then if you are referring to the person or when they are in the group you can try a term to make the person feel more included.
Personal opinion: if something can make someone feel icky, then I don't use it. This shows respect to the people that need it. No one is going to feel crappy if I *don't* use "guys" whether I feel it's a gender neutral term or not. That's the point of English evolving. I would argue that it was on the way to being gender neutral from the 70s til the 2010s when it started being used by tech bros and TH-cam influencers. Then it definitely swung back to the masculine side.
Being Non-binary myself, I'm fond of gender neutral use of "guys". I don't actually use it all that often, but I do believe it should be gender neutral. However, as of current, it's not a gender neutral word. But the only way it becomes one is through use. That said, if someone tells you they don't want to be referred to that way, one should respect that and avoid it for that person.
This is a great example of the 'organic' way that language evolves. I can think of a lot of other previously gendered words that have become increasingly neutral throughout my life, most of them are expletives so i won't post them here, but i'd note that several of them are curiously still far more gendered in American English than they are in British English.
I think other examples are actor and waiter being used for anyone who has that job, with actress and waitress starting to fall out of fashion. Although I have noticed server being favoured by Americans over waiter, so I think you're right about the differences on either side of the pond.
@@hannahk1306 yep, actor and waiter make far more sense as gender neutral anyway, it's only the -ess variants that actually infer gender in their structure. Server seems closer to servant though, but i guess America has a more complicated history than just gender in this regard.
I’ve certainly seen it as gender neutral since the late nineties. I had a female boss in a restaurant who used to refer to all of us (a mixed gender staff) as “guys” when she spoke to us.
I feel like I kinda have a unique perspective on this as a trans woman from the southern US. I think singular "guy" definitely has a masculine association and isn't gender neutral. For plural "guys" I think this is a lot more gender neutral, and I don't really have a problem with it. However, I do prefer "y'all" over "you guys" or "hey y'all" over "hey guys", I think it is more natural, and definitely is gender neutral.
@@wmdkitty I looked up the word folks, and Google suggested as a synonym for it, "mortals" That truly is gender neutral lol Wassup, mortals? How ya doin? Lol
I wonder if there's a gender-neutral term that is formal to people, like how ladies and gentlemen are for women and men respectively... As for Brad Ward and other people that may feel the same in some manner, I'm not a psychologist, but it seems there's something in your past that you must confront that may involve that word, like many others have words that trigger past events, and it's quite advised for you to try to confront this past, to solve the matter, because anyone would bring a common word like that, even if it doesn't include you in the mix; it's as if you pass 7 years not hearing it and being fine, just to some stranger to come about and say it, and make you go back in a snap. Condemning a word is easy, but it's as easy as to be hurt by it; going back to the past and find solace, relief, or even redemption is hard, and unfortunately, must be done, else the "chain" will always be there
I think it was more gendered in some places than others for a while. It was used neutrally where I grew up in the 70s. With the internet we're more connected and we'll probably have to adjust to a global English at some point.
Looking back on how I use the word, I realize that while it isn't strictly masculine, it is strictly non-feminine. Singular "guy" is strictly masculine. I have never referred to an individual woman as a "guy". Plural "guys" can refer to a group of all men, or to a mixed gender group. But if you were to ask me to address a group of women, I would never say "guys". I would say "ladies", "gals", or "girls" depending on context, but never "guys". I don't know what implications this has, positive or negative, but I think there is some useful insight to be found there. Whatever the case may be, I will generally go out of my way to use language that people are comfortable with. If someone tells me they aren't comfortable being referred to with a collective "guys", I will definitely work to avoid doing that.
The way it seems to me is that there's no other short word for a group of people. Americans have yall but everyone else has people or you all at best. That length has a big impact on usability i think.
I agree that most of this is due to the English language’s lack of a second-person plural that isn’t situational or regional. I usually use folks, and I’ve been known to use everyone as well. I’ve encountered way too many (typically upper-middle class white Americans) people go from making incest jokes about Alabama dad West Virginia to embracing y’all as the best solution to this lexical gap without addressing those discrepancies. (Oddly enough, I find it more earnest when I see someone in other Anglophone countries use it in writing).
My go-to colloquial word when referring to a group is "y'all" (despite me not being American), as I think it's the least likely option to have gendered connotations that cause dysphoria in others. There's really no purpose in gendering a word used for something as basic as a group of people, but I know from experience that using a word with a known gendered connotation makes some people uncomfortable. Also thanks for including the opinions of trans people. That perspective is often unrepresented in these discussions and it really shouldn't be because it's arguably the group that gendered language affects the most.
I use guys as a gender neutral term, but I think its similar to how "Man" was once considered gender neutral, describing humans. I wounder if "guys" will switch to being gender specific, again one day.
I use guys as a gender-neutral term, especially while chatting. I also don't mind being called a guy, but if someone had a problem with being called a guy, then I'd work on not using it around them.
Can we just like, get rid of gender? Like what's the point. Gender is feminine, masculine, in-between or none so whether you wear dresses or makeup ect but like you can tell that by looking at a person. Gender just puts people in boxes, why can't we date who we like removed from sexuality and just be who we are removed from gender. Nobody of the same gender is the same so why group them? No reason
Sorry, but I disagree. Recognizing multiple genders (aside from male and female) is needed and should be encouraged. Negating the existence of gender as a whole is not only pointless, but would be harmful. Most cisgendered people, and all binary transgendered people have their gender as an important part of their identity. Whether you can clearly see it by looking at them or not is a whole another thing, but that it's there is just a fact. Actually, negating genders as whole negates transgender people the importance of embracing their true gender and going through a journey. The only part that you said that I agree with is that we shouldn't put people in boxes or legally exclude / include them based on gender. People indeed are different, and there are many kinds of masculinity or femininity. They should all be celebrated instead of negated.
Disney made a PSA commercial in the last year or so telling kids not to use 'guys' as a gender neutral term. I've always used it gender neutral so I was very confused
I remember as a kid I called a girl “buddy” and everybody made me feel bad about it like “oh how are you going to call her buddy that’s a boys she’s a girl” I’m like NO I can call her buddy nobody believed me tho I just maintained that I’m not bogus and left it at that
I recall 'mankind' being gender neutral. 'Humankind' or just plain 'humans' has replaced the word in most circles. I could live without the word 'guys' being used. It feels alright if my female friends say it, but if a male uses it then I do feel excluded. It FEELS like he is talking to the male buddies and not to me. Yet, I'm pretty sure no one feels left out if I say it to a mixed group. To me it is a confusing word. And some may get this reference: "Well, howdy there, internet people, it's Beau again" Can't get much more inclusive than that. Only ones left out are those who are not on the internet. And they aren't likely to hear it. Anyway, take care peeps!
I think you have the order backwards. TH-camrs used guys because by this point Guys was already gender neutral for a large number of people, mainly Americans, that were late Gen X or early Millennials. I am a bit older than you, and an American, and while I remember people meaning just males when using guys it was also used for mixed gender groups even when I was young. Guys is informal and doesn't have a female counter part, ladies is the counterpart to gentlemen not guys, and I think that's why it shifted to an informal word for all, kind of like Dude. I think TH-cam is just what took guys further than the US. None of the gender neutral or non-binary people I know have ever said they feel excluded by this word and I have had blunt and direct conversations with some about this. That's my take anyway.
Not sure which side of the fence that I am on.Equally guys can refer to a group of people - both male & female , or it can be male dominated.Just sitting on the fence on this one!Thanks for an interesting thought provoking video
In spanish, we don't have dictionaries the way you do in english, where the philosophy you have in your language is more like "Languages are changing constantly and we have to depict them as such in our dictionaries", in Spanish since the 17th century we have an institution called "The Royal Spanish Academy of Language", where they have the official recognition that everything depicted in their dictionaries is the only recognized way to use Spanish. And of course, they don't actually depict the language as it is actually used. So I might be a bit biased due to this, but the way I think is that _languages are tools for humans to use, not the other way around._
Some trans women and non-binary people really take exception to “you guys” - sometimes to an unreasonable level. I kind of get the point but if it’s not meant to be harmful, I don’t think there’s a point in getting upset. I am from Minnesota, deep in the “you guys” belt of the USA but try to use “you all” to be more inclusive.
Apparently, the perception of the level of reasonableness depends on which group you belong to. Just because something isn’t meant to be harmful by party A does not mean that it won’t be perceived as harmful by party B.
@@ashbyalec14 no but “you all” is not gender specific. As was said in the video, “you guys” is often interpreted by trans women and non-binary people as excluding them and can remind them of being assigned male at birth.
I think I recall it being used quite a lot as a gender neutral term in the TV show 'Friends', but I haven't watched it since it concluded so I may be falsely remembering.
As a Spanish speaker, I wonder if the shift in the word's usage has anything to do with Spanish-speaking immigration. While not true for all nouns, it is really common to use the male plural of a word as the gender-neutral plural, since there isn't a gender-neutral alternative most of the time.
I’m a guy that grow up on 2005 the same year as yt and I’ve used yt ever since I got a smart device, I think that “guys” isn’t a gender neutral term, but it Has a ring to it so it got used a lot which means people shortened hey guys and girls into just hey guys because the greeting isn’t the most important part in a conversation
In many languages there is a word for exclusively women and there isn't a word for exclusivly men. The plural of man can be used to refers to groups of men or mixed gender groups.
You have just described the cultural exclusion of females from the social groups. Language is not evolving as quickly as the changing social position of females in societies. Use of male plural terms is still creating the perception that male is the standard and female is the other.
@@aerocoaster3252 Sounds to me like languages are oppressing men if anything. They don’t get their own word. In all seriousness the way language happened to evolve has nothing to do with any real problems.
@@username65585 - Languages don’t just randomly happen. They reflect the world view of the people who speak them. It just seems to me that world views are changing faster than the languages can adapt.
And in those languages there is a fascinating negotiation happening about how to makr official language as in laws amd job postings explicitly gender neutral.
James VI & I you mean? I used “guys” to greet my all female office colleagues long ago. Like “man up” as gender-neutral when paraphrasing other people’s advice/attitude.
It's just like the controversy over the word dude that was popular a couple years ago it all depends on context there are certain context where these terms are definitely gendered and other contacts where it's obvious that they're not I don't think using them freely is a problem as long as you're open to stopping your use of these words if a particular person is bothered by them
In Polish, the word "człowiek" traditionally meant "man" but over time it's meaning changed to mean "human" as in the species. Człowiek can mean man in some contexts but human in others. Człowiek is the only way to refer to a human (well you could say "homo-sapians" but that's not really in natural speech). There are many ways to refer to a man like "chłopak" (boy), "pan" (mr, sir), "menszyzna" (man) & "facet" (guy, dude) but they are only masculine. As for a woman there's "dziewczyna" (girl), "pani" (mrs, madame), "kobieta" (woman) & "laska" (lady) for but only refer to women. Gender-neurality, trans-people and non-binary people are concepts that the Polish language struggles with. It's kinda impossible to refer to someone in the neutral like "człowiek" is 100% grammatically masculine and no matter how we redefine it to be gender-neural. Polish has 3 grammatical genders; masculine, feminine & neuter. So why not use neuter? Because it's for inanimate objects not for animate things so it's dehumanising. Polish Pronouns (Nominative-Case because Polish has 7 cases); He = On She = Ona It = Ono They (singular) = [n/a] They (plural/masculine) = Oni Thay (plural/feminine/neuter) = One Non-binary (normative-case); Masculine = Niebinarny Feminine = Niebinarna Neuter = Niebinarne In current Polish is impossible to refer to someone in the gender-neural. Nouns aren't just gendered but also basic verbs are gendered. "I heard" (m = słyszałem/f = słyszałam). Everything that refers to humans is always gendered.
Same in Croatian. Pronouns are: on (him), ona (she), ono (it). Plural - oni is exclusively used in plural without a single exception. Nouns are: čovjek (man) is *sometimes* used as gender-neutral in medicine and proverbs, but never in a concrete description of a person. "Muškarac" means "man" specifically, while "žena" is for "a woman". There's also a "dečko/dječak" for boys and "djevojčica/cura" for a girl. Dječak and djevojčica are exclusively used for children, while dečko and cura can be used for young adults too. There is a gender-neutral term for a child (dijete), and the prounoun is "ono" (the only living beign beign called "ono"). It could never be used for an adult. The gender neutral term "osoba" (a person), is mostly used for general descriptions or when you deliberately want to conceal someone's identity. So, in any mystery movie, where the English script feels natural (They told me), we have to use "netko mi je rekao" (someone told me) or "ta osoba mi je rekla" (that person told me), neither of which is used in a standard conversation unless you genuinely want to hide someone's identity. Similarly, there's no way to refer to a known adult individual as non-binary without language maneuvers which would sound odd. You'd have to refer to them as "ta osoba" (that person), which still uses the pronoun "ona" when used in context. You can't call them "ono" (it), "oni" (them), or "netko" (someone) without sounding weird. The language has to find another word for NB individuals or bring another meaning to ono or oni.
@@AlirioAguero2 I just want to compare Polish & Serbo-Croatian (or "Serbian" if you're an ethno-nationalist Serb); The Serbo-Croatian "žena" is identical to the Polish "żona" meaning "wife" but "żeńskie" which means "feminine grammatical gender". "Dečko" meaning "boy" in Serbo-Croatian while "dziecko" in Polish which is neuter and means "child". "Osoba" means "person" in both Polish & Serbo-Croatian. In Polish it's pretty much gender-neural but it's still grammatically feminine. Probably the only word that properly gender-neural in Polish despite its grammar. Wow this word is just 100% identical in both Serbo-Croatian & Polish.
@@modmaker7617 Yeah, some Slavic languages are very similar in a lot of aspects. I am Croatian, actually, but I don't mind the term "Serbo-Croatian language", as the languages are around 98% same (Think British / American English). For purposes of national sovereignity they have different names. Their biggest difference is Serbian being written in Cyrillic and Croatian in Latin. Still, you understand everything. Even the terms that aren't official in both languages, the other one uses them colloquially. And yeah, all 3 of nations (Croatia, Serbia, Poland) seem to mostly have gendered words. Even terms that mean gender-neutral have grammatical form of a gendered noun. Netko (someone) is changing through cases like a masculine word, and osoba (person) like a feminine word.
@@AlirioAguero2 As far as I know Serbo-Croatian is only split into Serbian, Croatian & Bosnian (and sometimes Montenegrin but this one is very unrecognised by the people it's for) for political reasons and they are only one language with only slight dialectal version like American English & British English also Croats/Bosniaks mostly only write in the Latin alphabet and Serbs/Montenegrins use both Latin & Cyrillic alphabets (but they prefer the latter). Polish & Serbo-Croatian are Slavic languages. Slavic languages are very similar and gendered words are one of those features. I heard that Bulgarian & N.Macedonian are the only Slavic languages without gendered words but they have articles (like English the & a/an) so they aren't an average Slavic language at all.
I agree with another commenter who thought folks would be a good replacement for guys, but the singular folk has some issues. Saying "look at that folk" sounds weird as folk is also a collective noun fairly synonymous with the word 'people'. So there would need to be some sort of singular noun that would fit.
We had a diversity and inclusion thing at work last year. They told us not to use gendered terms, including guys. This confused me at the time because I think of guys as gender-neutral - I even refer to my Guides (all girls) as guys sometimes, e.g. "OK guys, it's time to pack up now.".
Those "inclusion" trainings are intended to divide, not bring together. If you didn't leave feeling guilty and like the scum of the earth and/or like you were justified in hating someone else for their skin color or income, the trainer/brainwasher didn't do their job.
Could it, perhaps be, that in English masculine terms can easily become gender-neutral because the masculine grammatical gender in the Indo-European languages derives from a common (as we see in the Anatolian branch) which has lost the feminine function to the feminine grammatical gender, which is of later date? Would also explain generic he.
If i moved to a part of the country were the "hey guys " is used .let's assume they don't hear my southern accent .I don't have one ..Even if they believed I was from there .I couldn't say :hey GUYS " I would feel so awkward It would make me so uncomfortable .
What are your personal experiences with the use of the word guys? How does it make you feel when you are referred to as a guy?
as a trans girl I absolutely hate the term guys because I keep thinking about it like most people around me do: not gender neutral, only used to refer to men. same thing in spanish tbh
I'm trying to phase it out personally.
I’ve always used it gender neutrally but I’ve been trying to break the habit because ik not everyone feels that way, same with dudes and bros, it is weird that all of the common terms are masculine, I have been trying to substitute them with stuff like y’all and folks instead
I’m from Minnesota USA and it is common here and doesn’t bother me.
If we bring up “guys” than we also need to talk about bro., brother, dawg, cat, man, dude, boy, boi, sis, honey, and sweety. How many of these are gender neutral? Does who is saying it matter? For example if a man says “okay, honey. “ it sounds feminine, but if a girl says it, it doesn’t.
As a kid growing up in the US in the 70s, there was a children's show on public television called "The Electric Company" that started with someone shouting, "Hey you guys!" before the intro. (You can look it up here on youtube. Morgan Freeman and Rita Moreno were on it.) I can't remember a time when I didn't use "guys" as a gender neutral term.
I grew up in Toronto Canada in the 70s and remember that shout well, so I've also thought of it as gender neutral.
In the late 2000s they rebooted that show and used that same intro. I hated it Bc I all ways sat close to the tv and felt like they where yelling in my ear. It was one of the main reasons I stopped watching tv and got into gaming.
I too immediately thought of the Electric Company
I was expecting The Electric Company way before TH-cam as a driver of gender neutral guys.
I forgot one of my favorite shows growing up on PBS was using guys as a gender neutral term in the opening, no wonder I use it that way
I agree with what many people are saying, it's very contextual. In western American English, at least relative to my region what I personally hear is this:
1. "Hey guys" as a greeting is rarely used or interpreted as anything but neutral, it's been used that way for decades.
2. "Those guys" in the sense of a group of people is masculine with a small amount of wiggle room, you generally don't hear people call a group of mostly stereotypically female presenting people "Guys"
3. "That guy" talking about a single person is firmly masculine, when is the last time you've heard someone call a stereotypically female presenting person a guy? My guess is never. "That guy with the bow" would almost always be interpreted as a man with a bow.
"when is the last time you've heard someone call a stereotypically female presenting person a guy?"
Being From The Midwest, Not Only Am I Pretty Sure I've Heard Other People Do That, But I Myself Have Done It, Which I Guess Just Goes To Show How It Varies Regionally.
@@rateeightx
That's the problem with pinning down these kinds of things. Even in an age of mass communication we have to remember that language is very fluid.
Even within the same language we're seperated by our culture, state, country, hobbies, ideologies, ect. more so than most people realize.
RE "undeniably neutral": The fact that the implication is in dispute, including in the US, was kind of the point of the video. Many people use "hey guys" as a gender neutral greeting, but this subset does mean this greeting is only used neutrally. I challenge your description "undeniable". [gloves slap slap] Here is a denial.
More important than the proportion of times that greeting is used with a gendered implication:
Language and communication is much more than how it is *used*. It is just as much how it is *received*.
If I say to you "cheese fiend the shoebill" and by that phrase I mean "have a seat", just because I *used* this collection of words to mean an invitation to rest does not actually give that implication to the phrase. If you (and many other people I say this to) understand it to mean something other than an offer of a chair, then what I used it for is not the actual meaning. (Neither is how you understood it necessarily the "actual" meaning. Because there is a disconnect between how this phrase was used and how it was understood (and probably much variability in how it's understood, depending on the recipient), it simply can't be considered to *have* a single actual meaning.)
Perhaps cheese fiend the shoebill is a reference or an in-joke amongst my friends, and for us it is both used and understood to be equivalent to "have a seat". Just because it has this mutually understood meaning for the people I often talk to does not give it the property of having this meaning for others. Also see: the multiple ways to interpret the phrase "have a seat" itself. Is it actually an invitation/offer, or is it a command? Does it imply a concern about the weariness of the listener, or is it an effort to silence the listener? Do both speaker and listener always interpret it the same way?
So if many people use "hey guys" as a gender neutral greeting, but it is received by many people (including people throughout the western US, where I live and grew up) as gendered, you can't really say that the neutrality is "undeniable".
If you had described "hey guys" more along the lines of generally neutral, predominantly neutral, even overwhelmingly (but not absolutely) neutral, I'd probably agree with you. I do agree with your points 2 & 3, and appreciate how you clearly and succinctly you made your explanations. Obviously this is something I have yet to achieve, haha. Where I think point 1 is inaccurate is in suggesting that the neutrality of "hey guys" as a greeting is unquestionable, unanimously agreed, perfect, indisputable, not under discussion, undeniable. It is not nearly as clear cut and decided as that, even within the regional dialect you specified.
I propose an amendment, saying "my guy" when talking to someone is also gender neutral.
@@milantoth6246
I hadn't considered this, thanks for bringing it up. I don't think it's quite right for me to add though, I have little experience with the phrase outside online interactions and I wanted to focus on my region of america specifically. Your comment should be enough to at least bring it to peoples' attention.
I tend to use “guys” as gender-neutral, but a singular “guy” is still masculine. However, “dude” is gender-neutral in both the singular and plural. I also like to joke that, while “boy” is masculine, “boi” is gender-neutral.
In the immortal words of Less Than Jake: I'm a dude. He's a dude. she's a dude. We're all dudes.
Agree 100%
boi is what gay men used to call the younger submissive men they buggered
On guy and guys I think the same, but being a teen of the 90s the word dude is masculine loaded still for me. Certainly happy for the image of a dude to be claimable across genders.
the most gender neutral word of all is still "bruh".
As far as i can tell, the use of gender-neutral “guys” is
• not that recent
• mostly/only in the plural
• mostly/only in direct address.
I noticed your last point as well! In classical Latin, direct address often uses a different form of the name (Marcus would be Marce), so this kind of exception for address is quite an old concept.
The thing I noticed within the gay community is that the term ''girl'' is also sometimes used as gender-neutral. Actually, I've seen cisgendered gay men (most often flamboyant guys) referring to one another as ''girl''. I find it unusual, but it somehow works for them, so I have nothing against it. Just an observation.
I’ve also seen “sis” used as a gender neutral term of endearment.
I see what you mean; I believe they've started using that word because they acted "girly" (like, way back, 80's or 90's, perhaps even more back), and it hit it off from there
I’m gay and I hate being called “girl.” Buy yeah it is kinda common
I've also seen things like the phrase "Queen" or "yas queen" - which I believe does have the male version "king" - although I myself have used the word, and had used on me, "queen" (P.s. I'm not gay... idk, I just feel like the term would be more common them)
personally, I'm fine with either now.
I think that regardless of sexuality girl and sis can be gender neutral especially since the masculine counterparts can
In Dutch the word for "boys" can also be used to just call a group of kids no matter the gender of those kids, so I have absolutely no bad feelings if someone uses "guys", "bro" or any other kinda masculine sounding word to name a group that includes me.
in spanish it's also the word for a group of kids, but it's specifically a group that includes at least one male kid (it can be 99 female kids but if there's one male kid you're suddenly disrespectful towards that kid)
maybe that's why I hate the term even english lol
Well, we use it like that, but the whole thing in this video is 'just because we do, doesn't mean we should. Should we?'. Just because you don't mind, doesn't mean nobody minds or nobody should mind.
Not saying I disagree in this case, especially because 'jongens' has its roots in our word for 'young', not necessarily in man. Jongen (and its variations in time) has always been short for 'young man', which remains the more formal way to address a boy. Besides, 'jongen' as a plural means 'younglings', as 'jong' means 'youngling'. Jongens can be considered a neutral double plural alongside a masculine regular plural.
Though I have a different stance when it comes to addressing a mixed group of children as 'jongetjes', or 'boys' when speaking English.
But if we look in other European languages everything becomes a lot more split between 'male' and 'female' without alternative. In Spanish, like ahre mentioned, neuter uses the male endings. AMAB gender neutral individuals don't have much recourse and it's why '-e' instead of '-o' has been appearing to refer to non-binary people, or to mixed groups. I've seen Latino used as Latine for these two cases, though nothing strict. An enby friend of mine uses 'Latine' for themselves, but still uses 'Latino' for the group
@@deldarel just like how the video said, just because some people feel like a word is too masculine to use it for all people doesn't have to mean that that's the case (anymore). To my understanding "guys" is just a neutral term without a specific gender unless the context makes it clear you're talking about men and most (if not all) people I know would probably say the same.
You know, I learned something today. The gender bias of a word can change over time, but still have profound impact on the day-to-day interactions of you puny humans.
the phrase "hey guys" or "you guys" has always been a normal greeting to a group of people in my eyes.
Cartoons did that all the time.
"Hey guys" = gender neutral
"How many guys have you slept with?" = not gender neutral
I'd say it depends.
I used to work in office with a lot of men and no women and used to say,on arriving in the morning, "Morning gents" when some women started in the office I decided this was potentially sexist and started saying "Morning folks" and have used it ever since.
Time to reanimate this unfashionable word.
hah youre using an american word now
@@hiruharii No, "folk" is German.
@@andrasfogarasi5014 Volk is German, folk is English a Germanic language, and folks is mostly said by Americans.
I like this word. I've used it since the '70s.
@@songcramp66 I mean, I've heard it used plenty in the UK.
My old English teacher used to say it all the time, for example, and I use it pretty often.
Sidenote, it's funny how folks usually applies to a smaller, more intimate group than folk.
Also, weirdly I've heard Americans refer to their parents as their folks in audio media, but _never_ written down. Maybe the word just doesn't look right written down like that? Maybe I've just missed the examples. But "your folks were worried" I always heard but never read.
I have a "guys" experience. I'm old enough to predate the internet by a good margin, let alone TH-cam. But in my part of the US, the plural "guys" has been gender-neutral from at least when I was a young child. I learned it that way from the start. Even the educational TV show "The Electric Company" started every episode with "Hey you guys!", clearly not meant as gendered.
So imagine my surprise and confusion when I offended someone from another part of the country by using it. I had no idea it was ever a male term in the plural, although it was certainly a male term in the singular. It still bugs me, because we have so few gender-neutral ways of talking about or to groups that it feels like a pretty serious loss if we can't use that one.
My mom always tell me when I say 'Hey guys', we're not cows.
The word for cow in Hindi is guy
As for Guy Fawkes, I’m willing to bet that outside the UK, he’s only known by those who’ve seen V For Vendetta. After seeing it and did research on it’s accuracy and enjoyed it even more. It’s a November 5th staple in my house for years now.
I disagree. There are people who don't get their education from Hollywood.
My family, American for generations, celebrated guy fawkes day when I was younger, so hey. I guess I might just be an exception to the rule tho
@@likebot. let's say you're from Poland, you have no relatives from the UK, and you've never been or planning to go to the UK. Why should you learn about this obscure holiday? Chances are you haven't heard about it at all! (and how can you learn something if you don't even know it exists?)
@@Yorick257 That's absolutely correct, and doesn't argue with my statement, which is what I assume you're trying to do. But chances are also that a Pole with no relatives in the UK might read.
I would say quite a lot of people are aware of him, at least in the former british empire.
I’ve also noticed “dude” has become more gender neutral. For example “who is the dude who taped a banana to a wall?” Or “some dude just cut me off in traffic”.
That’s an oddly specific example
Imagine getting angry at A WORD with flexible meaning when it doesnt strictly adhear to one singular interpretation.
Great job *guys* lol
Guys was commonly used as a gender neutral term in my youth, back in the 70's. Some folks would fuss about it but they were in the minority. I feel perfectly included when referred to as 'guys' and I use it in the all inclusive sense.
I think when using it to describe someone, "guy" is mostly masculine (e.g. "He's a guy, you know.") but in most other contexts (especially slang) I see it as more gender neutral (e.g. "get a load of this guy!"). Though in plural, apart from the describe someone example it's way more used neutrally :0
I still avoid using "guy(s)" too much though (outside friend groups at least) since I don't accidentally want to exclude anyone with it, and besides coming up with new terms is fun :)
V for vendetta was a huge hit in America, a modernized retelling of Guy Fawkes' story.
I think the use of both “guy” and “buddy” singularly refers to males.
We have a history of including females in the overall masculine term when it’s mixed such as actors, gay rights, etc. If it specifically women we might specify “actresses” or “lesbians”, etc.
Although “guy” itself started as a slang term, using it as gender neutral is even more slang and conversational.
Big rule of thumb: If someone asks you to not refer to them as "guys", just don't do it 👍 I'm also a firm user of the term "buddy" to anyone and everyone :]
I would respect their decision, but that sort of thing would make me feel like I was walking on eggshells around them and shatter my trust in speaking naturally around them. Since if something as innocuous as being included in a 'hey guys' when referring to a group they are in upsets them, what else would upset them by accident? I wouldn't know and now I'm always on my toes.
"don't call me buddy, pal."
"don't call me pal, friend"
"DONT CALL ME F-"
Do people actually do this? I am from an ESL country and I have no idea how crazy it is in native English-speaking countries.
Or people can not try to dictate the way I talk because they can't handle the evolution of language and the existence of dialects that are not their own.
@@MrsRen you must have a dialect where "ask" means "command,' then.
I don't think "guy" is gender neutral. It has that one use that's (sometimes) seen as such, but in every other usage context it's unambiguously masculine. If I ask someone how many guys they've slept with, they're gonna think of men. If I talk about a classroom of students and say "the guys did (x) while the...", you're probably expecting me to follow with what the girls did meanwhile.
I'd wager the reason a lot of women don't like it, and the point that got me over to dislike that usage too, is that it's kinda like the "generic he" argument all over again. We don't really see traditionally feminine terms taking on neutral meanings, and this imbalance makes male the default because the traditionally male term gets to be neutral.
And weirdly enough, I, as a nonbinary person, am fine with being called a guy. I even call myself that sometimes. But I won't pretend "guy" is gender-neutral, even though it feels (to me) less poignantly masculine than other masculine words like "man" or "boy". It's kinda a way in which I can do masculinity without fully committing to "man", which is why I like it. But it's also why I've stopped using it unless I know the person/people being referred to is/are cool with it.
Guy isn't gender neutral, but guys (referring to a group) is. Just like dude is. Girls will call each other dude all the time where I live, for example, and they obviously don't think they're male.
Yeah, there is an expectation that being considered part if a male collective is supposed to be ok unless you are fussy, but you had better not call a group with a couple men "ladies".
I've switched over from "guys" to "y'all." I've decided that using "guys" is like using "he" as a gender neutral term.
@@maliciousmath Because ladies is not neutral. Unless you're in the military that is, lmfao.
i had no idea the name "Guy" comes from "Guido", which is still a somewhat present name in germany (not particularly common, but not super unusual either).
anyway, i like the trend of words becoming gender-neutral. gendered language is a needless complication anyway…
When I’m referring to a group of men, I say “guys.” When I’m referring to a group of women, I say “gals.” When I’m referring to a group of both, I say “guys and gals.”
-and non binary pals-
-sorry-
That feels exclusive, like you are singling out various groups. I just call everyone 'guys' as it means I'm not treating anyone differently.
I’d rather be called guy than gal.
I've been "one of The Guys" since college days, when my friend group consisted of 4 or 5 guys and me. When Pat started dating another woman at ENMU, she became one of The Guys too, though I was one of The original Guys. It's really never bothered me how the term is used, as long as the meaning is clear in the moment.
Growing up in the upper Midwest USA, the term "you guys" was already morphing to be a generic term in the 90s. It was used as the 'northern and cultured' alternative to the souther "y'all." Although "you guys" was generic, the term 'guy' was still male, and 'guys' more male. Sitting on the same level as "dude." Like you wouldn't refer to a single woman as a 'dude' but you could address a mixed group as 'dudes' or 'dudes and dudettes' if you were being cute.
Another issue is that language is very geographical, and trying to police it to cater to everyone will just make many people very confused and upset. Language is messy, it evolves, and context is key.
Last night I decided to put your second book on the living room coffee table for the rest of the house. While explaining the book to the roomies, I noticed I hadn't seen one of your videos in a long time. Turns out, I had binged your videos months ago, without ever clicking subscribe. Don't worry, I fixed that.
100% gender neutral
no
Before this I thought it was a thing English inherited from French, where everything is gendered and groups of masculine and feminine things are referred to with masculine pronouns like "ils", but the TH-cam theory makes a lot more sense with how recently "guys" has become popular as a gender-neutral word
I love that Patrick watches Foil Arms and Hog makes me love this channel even more.
Guys has always been used to refer to a group of people regardless of gender growing up for me at least
In a business or work setting, we use "Everyone" or "Everybody" or "All" for the collective term to avoid conflicts and unintentional hurt feelings, but in more informal settings, "Guys" is go-to word among friends and friendly co-workers.
I was born in Los Angeles in 1968, & the plural of "you" was "you guys." There was no other plural "you." It was not gender-specific. It was just the plural form of "you" which EVERYONE used, on the West Coast of the US in the 1970s anyhow.
Our family moved to Gawd-foresaken Arkansas in 1981, where I was ridiculed relentlessly for using a "masculine" term as if it were gender-neutral. In the South, everyone knows the plural form of "you" is "y'all." ✌🏼
I went to university with a Guy. Great to see the Name Explain test card in this one, as well as the Foil, Arms & Hog mention! Interesting discussion too.
Even in my schoolyears (~25 years ago), guys was a gender neutral term.My english teacher stressed that, so he called us all every morning "hey guys".
As someone who is not a guy, i hear this all the time. I understand the usage, but that doesn't mean i feel great about being lumped into something that i am not.
Im a guy, but I've known many "not guys" who were uncomfortable with the term, along with "dude". It's hard to change your vocabulary, but it's good to try.
@@moralkombat66 The thing is, what are we supposed to say?
"hello human beings"
"hello people in this room"
"texas"
"hello gender-neutral term"
The word is so embedded in our vocabulary that the meaning has changed, people need to understand and let go of the past, or give us some better suggestions.
@@cooljrgaming9729 hey y'all? Howdy folks? Idk
@@moralkombat66 these are some good examples, but only feel normal if you are in the southern US
Hello people? Hello folks? Hello gamers? Hello hikers? Lots of options.
If you choose to feel excluded by the word "guys", that's on you. Most people who say, "Hey guys" or "You guys" aren't intending to exclude anyone but rather to address everyone quickly so they can get to the next thing. It's you choose to take it personally and feel excluded, that's on you. Personally, I think there's plenty of other things in the world used to exclude this group or that group from a particular thing without getting upset by some innocuous word like "guys".
The people who get offended are pussies
Yeah, when people say "guys", we are not trying to exclude every single girl in the room, we are not instantly massive misogynists that need to be hanged, guys is now gender neutral. More people should understand this.
I really appricate you taking the time to listen to and include trans voices in this discussion. My girlfriend is trans so ive tried to avoid using "guys" when I'm referring to any group with her in it. This of course is easier if I just try to remove it entirely from my vocab. On the other hand as someone with a passion for language and a love of purposefully misusing words until they have a new meaning, the gender-neutral evolution of "guy" and "dude" make me extremely happy. I'd wager there are some trans men who get gender euphoria from being referred to as "guy' and "dude' as well. Its unfortunate that the same word can bring such different feelings to different people. My hope is still that the word continues to be normalized as a gender neutral term and that eventually all the lovely people discovering their gender in the future won't associate it specifically with one gender enough for it to be triggering. Personally I've always associated the terms "guys' and "dude/dudes" with being gender-neutral. Kinda in the way the Spanish "amigos" includes men and women. Getting older I get the issues when gendering language to such a degree, but as a kid those things correlated perfectly to me. Like everyone is included in amigos/guys/dudes but a sinular amigo or guy is a man, while personally I see dude as being for everyone in the in either form. That being said I don't call my girlfriend "dude" (or any trans woman for that matter). Rather be safe than sorry when it comes to hurting other people!
In US, people don’t really give two Guy Fawkes about bonfire day.
The fact that there is a gender specific word pair (several variations as you mentioned) for "guys" indicates to me that it is a gendered word. Unless it is in a situation like "man" which pulls double meaning as a mature male of the human species and shorthand for the species itself as a whole. It then appears that "guy" falls into the same problem as "man" because the generic term is also a specific term for a category of people among the larger population. As with "man" this usage thereby suggests that the "default" or "normal" specimen of that population is described by that term, with others in that population being variations on that.
i don't know how many people share this experience but i grew up hearing it _only_ used in neutral contexts and then it actually sounded so WRONG when i started being exposed to people using the word "guys" to specify the males in a group setting or something only in my teen years on, and it honestly still sounds weird to me and probably always will lol ?
It's the new dude.
I used “Hey guys” fairly frequently, but recently i’ve been using “Howdy y’all” instead.
In general the male term is used when referring to a mixed group that includes males, that's not new and it's not limited to English. Some people are okay with that and some people strongly prefer actual gender-neutral terms rather than male terms used in a gender-neutral way. I guess over time the prevailing usage will rewrite the definition, but as you say older folks will remember what the word meant ten years ago and will still see it as a term for men, not a term for everybody.
I do find it odd that it's mostly traditionally masculine-gendered terms that have shifted towards being used by many as gender-neutral terms, rarely do you see it happen to feminine-gendered terms. Like guys, dude, bro, etc. Why is it masculine-gendered terms specifically? Why doesn't it happen to feminine-gendered terms anywhere near as much?
I suppose it doesn't help that, as a trans woman, sometimes I get people going out of their way to call me masculine-gendered terms even after we politely ask them not to or I get people arguing about with "something something language change" that completely misses the point or sometimes people start bellyaching over walking on eggshells or something because I or another trans woman asked them to not call her "bro" (seriously, it's not that hard or unreasonable). So that basically ruined those words for me. But I am curious why it seems like traditionally masculine-gendered terms are used in gender-neutral ways more than traditionally feminine-gendered terms. Seems to happen in a lot of other languages as well. ~Red
It's because many people see man as standard and woman as unrelatable
With my group of friends "jongens" is gender neutral and is translated to boys, however we say "boys" if we mean the men in particular or to be silly. "Gasten" is like guys a gender neutral term too but can also refer to guests.
Tbh we also use "meiden" to refer to the group jokingly if we have a feminine atmosphere, which can we translated into girls but the youg adult version.
My mom and younger (female) cousin have been battling over "dude" for the past ten years or so. My cousin uses "dude" for everyone and everything, completely removed from gender. My mom absolutely insists on "dudette" for women and is quick to correct my cousin every time. This is always met with my cousin shooting my mom a look of "wow, you crazy old woman."
"dudette" is a garbage word ngl
Thank you Name Explain for this subject. I once many years ago, worked in the accounting department of a local law firm and was the only man in that department, there were several women. When I would leave for the day it became an issue of how to say goodbye, should I say bye ladies or bye guys. Ultimately bye guys stuck, because it was natural and saying bye ladies didn't feel right to me, it felt wrong or even sexist. Bye guys sounded natural and no one ever complained and said bye right back and we all got along really well. This was when internet was just starting to grow. I think what words you use depends on the situation and relationship to the people you are conversing. Look at your examples at end of your video if someone through their personal experience finds "guys" problematic then if you are referring to the person or when they are in the group you can try a term to make the person feel more included.
"Bro" is a gender neutral term, because it no longer means "brother", colloquially it means "douche".
Personal opinion: if something can make someone feel icky, then I don't use it. This shows respect to the people that need it. No one is going to feel crappy if I *don't* use "guys" whether I feel it's a gender neutral term or not. That's the point of English evolving. I would argue that it was on the way to being gender neutral from the 70s til the 2010s when it started being used by tech bros and TH-cam influencers. Then it definitely swung back to the masculine side.
Then comes Drew Gooden, who just says "Hey guy".
I’m a boomer, folks is my gender neutral term. I didn’t grow up in NYC. Youse guys was what mobsters in 70s crime shows used.
Being Non-binary myself, I'm fond of gender neutral use of "guys". I don't actually use it all that often, but I do believe it should be gender neutral.
However, as of current, it's not a gender neutral word.
But the only way it becomes one is through use. That said, if someone tells you they don't want to be referred to that way, one should respect that and avoid it for that person.
That "guy" with a Mohawk at 1:16 was a woman
Im aware, I use using it as an example to show how the word could be gender neutral, thank you for noticing :)
It's that Miranda Cosgrove as Jesus in your profile picture? 😂
@@NameExplain my bad thought you were specifically showing us dudes in that part
This is a great example of the 'organic' way that language evolves. I can think of a lot of other previously gendered words that have become increasingly neutral throughout my life, most of them are expletives so i won't post them here, but i'd note that several of them are curiously still far more gendered in American English than they are in British English.
I think other examples are actor and waiter being used for anyone who has that job, with actress and waitress starting to fall out of fashion. Although I have noticed server being favoured by Americans over waiter, so I think you're right about the differences on either side of the pond.
@@hannahk1306 yep, actor and waiter make far more sense as gender neutral anyway, it's only the -ess variants that actually infer gender in their structure.
Server seems closer to servant though, but i guess America has a more complicated history than just gender in this regard.
I’ve certainly seen it as gender neutral since the late nineties. I had a female boss in a restaurant who used to refer to all of us (a mixed gender staff) as “guys” when she spoke to us.
Just say "Everypony", it pisses off everyone equally
I feel like I kinda have a unique perspective on this as a trans woman from the southern US.
I think singular "guy" definitely has a masculine association and isn't gender neutral.
For plural "guys" I think this is a lot more gender neutral, and I don't really have a problem with it.
However, I do prefer "y'all" over "you guys" or "hey y'all" over "hey guys", I think it is more natural, and definitely is gender neutral.
This is a good point, but y'all generally doesn't work in British accents and you all is too cumbersome. Maybe we need to come up with our own term.
@@hannahk1306 "folks"
@@wmdkitty I looked up the word folks, and Google suggested as a synonym for it, "mortals"
That truly is gender neutral lol
Wassup, mortals? How ya doin? Lol
I wonder if there's a gender-neutral term that is formal to people, like how ladies and gentlemen are for women and men respectively...
As for Brad Ward and other people that may feel the same in some manner, I'm not a psychologist, but it seems there's something in your past that you must confront that may involve that word, like many others have words that trigger past events, and it's quite advised for you to try to confront this past, to solve the matter, because anyone would bring a common word like that, even if it doesn't include you in the mix; it's as if you pass 7 years not hearing it and being fine, just to some stranger to come about and say it, and make you go back in a snap. Condemning a word is easy, but it's as easy as to be hurt by it; going back to the past and find solace, relief, or even redemption is hard, and unfortunately, must be done, else the "chain" will always be there
I think it was more gendered in some places than others for a while. It was used neutrally where I grew up in the 70s. With the internet we're more connected and we'll probably have to adjust to a global English at some point.
Looking back on how I use the word, I realize that while it isn't strictly masculine, it is strictly non-feminine. Singular "guy" is strictly masculine. I have never referred to an individual woman as a "guy". Plural "guys" can refer to a group of all men, or to a mixed gender group. But if you were to ask me to address a group of women, I would never say "guys". I would say "ladies", "gals", or "girls" depending on context, but never "guys".
I don't know what implications this has, positive or negative, but I think there is some useful insight to be found there. Whatever the case may be, I will generally go out of my way to use language that people are comfortable with. If someone tells me they aren't comfortable being referred to with a collective "guys", I will definitely work to avoid doing that.
The way it seems to me is that there's no other short word for a group of people. Americans have yall but everyone else has people or you all at best. That length has a big impact on usability i think.
I agree that most of this is due to the English language’s lack of a second-person plural that isn’t situational or regional.
I usually use folks, and I’ve been known to use everyone as well. I’ve encountered way too many (typically upper-middle class white Americans) people go from making incest jokes about Alabama dad West Virginia to embracing y’all as the best solution to this lexical gap without addressing those discrepancies. (Oddly enough, I find it more earnest when I see someone in other Anglophone countries use it in writing).
Folks, you all, you'll, everyone, peeps, ladies and gents...etc..seriously
My go-to colloquial word when referring to a group is "y'all" (despite me not being American), as I think it's the least likely option to have gendered connotations that cause dysphoria in others. There's really no purpose in gendering a word used for something as basic as a group of people, but I know from experience that using a word with a known gendered connotation makes some people uncomfortable.
Also thanks for including the opinions of trans people. That perspective is often unrepresented in these discussions and it really shouldn't be because it's arguably the group that gendered language affects the most.
It basically is, esp in corporate settings but I usually try to use “everyone” or “all”
I use guys as a gender neutral term, but I think its similar to how "Man" was once considered gender neutral, describing humans. I wounder if "guys" will switch to being gender specific, again one day.
I use guys as a gender-neutral term, especially while chatting. I also don't mind being called a guy, but if someone had a problem with being called a guy, then I'd work on not using it around them.
Can we just like, get rid of gender? Like what's the point.
Gender is feminine, masculine, in-between or none so whether you wear dresses or makeup ect but like you can tell that by looking at a person.
Gender just puts people in boxes, why can't we date who we like removed from sexuality and just be who we are removed from gender.
Nobody of the same gender is the same so why group them? No reason
Sorry, but I disagree. Recognizing multiple genders (aside from male and female) is needed and should be encouraged. Negating the existence of gender as a whole is not only pointless, but would be harmful. Most cisgendered people, and all binary transgendered people have their gender as an important part of their identity. Whether you can clearly see it by looking at them or not is a whole another thing, but that it's there is just a fact. Actually, negating genders as whole negates transgender people the importance of embracing their true gender and going through a journey. The only part that you said that I agree with is that we shouldn't put people in boxes or legally exclude / include them based on gender. People indeed are different, and there are many kinds of masculinity or femininity. They should all be celebrated instead of negated.
The background music made me think I was watching curious archive for a second, lol.
Disney made a PSA commercial in the last year or so telling kids not to use 'guys' as a gender neutral term. I've always used it gender neutral so I was very confused
I remember as a kid I called a girl “buddy” and everybody made me feel bad about it like “oh how are you going to call her buddy that’s a boys she’s a girl” I’m like NO I can call her buddy nobody believed me tho I just maintained that I’m not bogus and left it at that
I recall 'mankind' being gender neutral. 'Humankind' or just plain 'humans' has replaced the word in most circles. I could live without the word 'guys' being used. It feels alright if my female friends say it, but if a male uses it then I do feel excluded. It FEELS like he is talking to the male buddies and not to me. Yet, I'm pretty sure no one feels left out if I say it to a mixed group. To me it is a confusing word.
And some may get this reference: "Well, howdy there, internet people, it's Beau again" Can't get much more inclusive than that. Only ones left out are those who are not on the internet. And they aren't likely to hear it.
Anyway, take care peeps!
I think you have the order backwards. TH-camrs used guys because by this point Guys was already gender neutral for a large number of people, mainly Americans, that were late Gen X or early Millennials. I am a bit older than you, and an American, and while I remember people meaning just males when using guys it was also used for mixed gender groups even when I was young. Guys is informal and doesn't have a female counter part, ladies is the counterpart to gentlemen not guys, and I think that's why it shifted to an informal word for all, kind of like Dude. I think TH-cam is just what took guys further than the US. None of the gender neutral or non-binary people I know have ever said they feel excluded by this word and I have had blunt and direct conversations with some about this. That's my take anyway.
Definitely. The gender neutral "you guys" has been a thing way before/unrelated to youtube, at least in CA
Not sure which side of the fence that I am on.Equally guys can refer to a group of people - both male & female , or it can be male dominated.Just sitting on the fence on this one!Thanks for an interesting thought provoking video
In spanish, we don't have dictionaries the way you do in english, where the philosophy you have in your language is more like "Languages are changing constantly and we have to depict them as such in our dictionaries", in Spanish since the 17th century we have an institution called "The Royal Spanish Academy of Language", where they have the official recognition that everything depicted in their dictionaries is the only recognized way to use Spanish. And of course, they don't actually depict the language as it is actually used.
So I might be a bit biased due to this, but the way I think is that _languages are tools for humans to use, not the other way around._
I remember early on, someone supercut a load of "Hey guys" from youtube and titled it HIG EYES"
Some trans women and non-binary people really take exception to “you guys” - sometimes to an unreasonable level. I kind of get the point but if it’s not meant to be harmful, I don’t think there’s a point in getting upset.
I am from Minnesota, deep in the “you guys” belt of the USA but try to use “you all” to be more inclusive.
Southern states that use the term “Y’all” are inclusive? I wish you guys could keep your logic straight.
Apparently, the perception of the level of reasonableness depends on which group you belong to. Just because something isn’t meant to be harmful by party A does not mean that it won’t be perceived as harmful by party B.
@@ashbyalec14 no but “you all” is not gender specific. As was said in the video, “you guys” is often interpreted by trans women and non-binary people as excluding them and can remind them of being assigned male at birth.
The plural feels gender-neutral to me, but the singular makes me specifically think of a young person who presents as male.
In the American South we don't say, "Hey Guys." We say, "Hey Y'all."
When ChrisFix on TH-cam yells “Hey guys! ChrisFix here.” I read it as gender neutral
My school wouldn't put a Guy on the bonfire, they saw it as bad form to burn an ex-pupil
Of course "guys" is gender neutral, at least to me that's like asking if "you" is gender neutral
it is not
I think I recall it being used quite a lot as a gender neutral term in the TV show 'Friends', but I haven't watched it since it concluded so I may be falsely remembering.
As a Spanish speaker, I wonder if the shift in the word's usage has anything to do with Spanish-speaking immigration.
While not true for all nouns, it is really common to use the male plural of a word as the gender-neutral plural, since there isn't a gender-neutral alternative most of the time.
I’m a guy that grow up on 2005 the same year as yt and I’ve used yt ever since I got a smart device, I think that “guys” isn’t a gender neutral term, but it Has a ring to it so it got used a lot which means people shortened hey guys and girls into just hey guys because the greeting isn’t the most important part in a conversation
I have used guys to refer more than one person regardless of gender since I was a child in the early 90's.
Thanks to V for Vendetta, this South African knows about Guy Fawkes
That, and I visited York (his hometown) in 2016 and 2017
second-person guys and dude have always been gender neutral to me, and this extends to my entire family and the majority of people where i live
In many languages there is a word for exclusively women and there isn't a word for exclusivly men. The plural of man can be used to refers to groups of men or mixed gender groups.
Like in French (ils: masculine/mixed, elles: feminine)
You have just described the cultural exclusion of females from the social groups. Language is not evolving as quickly as the changing social position of females in societies. Use of male plural terms is still creating the perception that male is the standard and female is the other.
@@aerocoaster3252 Sounds to me like languages are oppressing men if anything. They don’t get their own word. In all seriousness the way language happened to evolve has nothing to do with any real problems.
@@username65585 - Languages don’t just randomly happen. They reflect the world view of the people who speak them. It just seems to me that world views are changing faster than the languages can adapt.
And in those languages there is a fascinating negotiation happening about how to makr official language as in laws amd job postings explicitly gender neutral.
‘Dude’ is undergoing a similar gender reimagining. One of my favorite variations on TH-cam is “guys, gals, non-binary pals.”
guys is gender neutral, boys has replaced it's meaning over time
no it isn't
James VI & I you mean? I used “guys” to greet my all female office colleagues long ago. Like “man up” as gender-neutral when paraphrasing other people’s advice/attitude.
It depended (depends?) on context. "Attention you guys. I want the girls over here and the guys over there."
It's just like the controversy over the word dude that was popular a couple years ago it all depends on context there are certain context where these terms are definitely gendered and other contacts where it's obvious that they're not I don't think using them freely is a problem as long as you're open to stopping your use of these words if a particular person is bothered by them
In Polish, the word "człowiek" traditionally meant "man" but over time it's meaning changed to mean "human" as in the species. Człowiek can mean man in some contexts but human in others. Człowiek is the only way to refer to a human (well you could say "homo-sapians" but that's not really in natural speech). There are many ways to refer to a man like "chłopak" (boy), "pan" (mr, sir), "menszyzna" (man) & "facet" (guy, dude) but they are only masculine. As for a woman there's "dziewczyna" (girl), "pani" (mrs, madame), "kobieta" (woman) & "laska" (lady) for but only refer to women. Gender-neurality, trans-people and non-binary people are concepts that the Polish language struggles with. It's kinda impossible to refer to someone in the neutral like "człowiek" is 100% grammatically masculine and no matter how we redefine it to be gender-neural.
Polish has 3 grammatical genders; masculine, feminine & neuter. So why not use neuter? Because it's for inanimate objects not for animate things so it's dehumanising.
Polish Pronouns (Nominative-Case because Polish has 7 cases);
He = On
She = Ona
It = Ono
They (singular) = [n/a]
They (plural/masculine) = Oni
Thay (plural/feminine/neuter) = One
Non-binary (normative-case);
Masculine = Niebinarny
Feminine = Niebinarna
Neuter = Niebinarne
In current Polish is impossible to refer to someone in the gender-neural.
Nouns aren't just gendered but also basic verbs are gendered. "I heard" (m = słyszałem/f = słyszałam). Everything that refers to humans is always gendered.
Same in Croatian.
Pronouns are: on (him), ona (she), ono (it). Plural - oni is exclusively used in plural without a single exception.
Nouns are: čovjek (man) is *sometimes* used as gender-neutral in medicine and proverbs, but never in a concrete description of a person.
"Muškarac" means "man" specifically, while "žena" is for "a woman". There's also a "dečko/dječak" for boys and "djevojčica/cura" for a girl. Dječak and djevojčica are exclusively used for children, while dečko and cura can be used for young adults too.
There is a gender-neutral term for a child (dijete), and the prounoun is "ono" (the only living beign beign called "ono"). It could never be used for an adult.
The gender neutral term "osoba" (a person), is mostly used for general descriptions or when you deliberately want to conceal someone's identity.
So, in any mystery movie, where the English script feels natural (They told me), we have to use "netko mi je rekao" (someone told me) or "ta osoba mi je rekla" (that person told me), neither of which is used in a standard conversation unless you genuinely want to hide someone's identity.
Similarly, there's no way to refer to a known adult individual as non-binary without language maneuvers which would sound odd. You'd have to refer to them as "ta osoba" (that person), which still uses the pronoun "ona" when used in context. You can't call them "ono" (it), "oni" (them), or "netko" (someone) without sounding weird.
The language has to find another word for NB individuals or bring another meaning to ono or oni.
@@AlirioAguero2
I just want to compare Polish & Serbo-Croatian (or "Serbian" if you're an ethno-nationalist Serb);
The Serbo-Croatian "žena" is identical to the Polish "żona" meaning "wife" but "żeńskie" which means "feminine grammatical gender".
"Dečko" meaning "boy" in Serbo-Croatian while "dziecko" in Polish which is neuter and means "child".
"Osoba" means "person" in both Polish & Serbo-Croatian. In Polish it's pretty much gender-neural but it's still grammatically feminine. Probably the only word that properly gender-neural in Polish despite its grammar. Wow this word is just 100% identical in both Serbo-Croatian & Polish.
@@modmaker7617 Yeah, some Slavic languages are very similar in a lot of aspects. I am Croatian, actually, but I don't mind the term "Serbo-Croatian language", as the languages are around 98% same (Think British / American English). For purposes of national sovereignity they have different names. Their biggest difference is Serbian being written in Cyrillic and Croatian in Latin. Still, you understand everything. Even the terms that aren't official in both languages, the other one uses them colloquially.
And yeah, all 3 of nations (Croatia, Serbia, Poland) seem to mostly have gendered words. Even terms that mean gender-neutral have grammatical form of a gendered noun. Netko (someone) is changing through cases like a masculine word, and osoba (person) like a feminine word.
@@AlirioAguero2
As far as I know Serbo-Croatian is only split into Serbian, Croatian & Bosnian (and sometimes Montenegrin but this one is very unrecognised by the people it's for) for political reasons and they are only one language with only slight dialectal version like American English & British English also Croats/Bosniaks mostly only write in the Latin alphabet and Serbs/Montenegrins use both Latin & Cyrillic alphabets (but they prefer the latter).
Polish & Serbo-Croatian are Slavic languages. Slavic languages are very similar and gendered words are one of those features. I heard that Bulgarian & N.Macedonian are the only Slavic languages without gendered words but they have articles (like English the & a/an) so they aren't an average Slavic language at all.
I agree with another commenter who thought folks would be a good replacement for guys, but the singular folk has some issues. Saying "look at that folk" sounds weird as folk is also a collective noun fairly synonymous with the word 'people'. So there would need to be some sort of singular noun that would fit.
We had a diversity and inclusion thing at work last year. They told us not to use gendered terms, including guys. This confused me at the time because I think of guys as gender-neutral - I even refer to my Guides (all girls) as guys sometimes, e.g. "OK guys, it's time to pack up now.".
Those "inclusion" trainings are intended to divide, not bring together. If you didn't leave feeling guilty and like the scum of the earth and/or like you were justified in hating someone else for their skin color or income, the trainer/brainwasher didn't do their job.
When referring to a large group, guys is neutral, when referring to a small group or single person, it is masculine
Could it, perhaps be, that in English masculine terms can easily become gender-neutral because the masculine grammatical gender in the Indo-European languages derives from a common (as we see in the Anatolian branch) which has lost the feminine function to the feminine grammatical gender, which is of later date? Would also explain generic he.
If i moved to a part of the country were the "hey guys " is used .let's assume they don't hear my southern accent .I don't have one ..Even if they believed I was from there .I couldn't say :hey GUYS " I would feel so awkward It would make me so uncomfortable .
It’s been like this since about 2007