Would you consider covering topics such as Ayahuasca, Amanita Muscaria, and/or Salvia Divinorum? These psychedelics have had major impacts of occult and main stream belief systems. They also have major keys to unlocking certain features of our brains. I can go in depth and provide links to follow. Waking people up to these paradigms of reality is crucial for those who want curiosity over comfort.
Hey man, great presentation. I was wondering, could Cannabis have some part to play in this mind altering state? Also, I sense some very strong occult masonic influence here.
@@evabraunsnewjewishhusband2510 the church is in the mind as is the Kingdom to come. Better yet, look into Kabbalah and Occultism. Combine it with Christianity and Eastern Philosophy. You'd get a better picture much faster this way...
Speaking of religious trances, I would love for you to do a video on musical use in religion. Basically every religion I can think of uses music in one form or another to achieve various ritualistic purposes. I would be interesting to see a compare and contrast style review of these.
I love the fact that you don't just teach us something about ancient religions, you teach about good scholarship and critical analysis. Those are such important skills for everyone to practice
@@theasianjaywalker4455 I think a better question would be to examine what harm inti-intellectualism does. Which is immeasurable harm. People being unable to think for themselves just makes everyone a shallow reactionary who gets easily duped by every scam, and is easy to control. Everybody benefits from being given the tools to examine the information presented to them, understand what that information says, and draw their own conclusions independently. Education and tools of critical thinking give people freedom. Why scoff at people who can think for themselves 🤔. I could draw some conclusions on who you are and what you value based on your reductionist comment that undervalues education, for example. And I could try to glean what your comment is trying to accomplish by comparing it to similar comments on similar subjects from other people. I could also browse your page and see what other comments you leave on other videos, or see what other videos you tend to watch... and my critical analysis skills could help me write up a series of sick burns to hurt you personally. Or I could be mature and do the right thing, and get you into a mature discussion about how you should be thinking a little harder about why you believe what you believe, and why you think some things are true instead of others. I could encourage you to question the sources of the information you get, and give you the tools to tell when someone is lying to you for an agenda. Because everyone benefits from being able to think critically. And everyone deserves to have that benefit.
@@Nunyo-Bizznez So, to break down the verbose reply you've come up with: It's a kind of formula that has made you a superior being, no longer able to control - you've now become the one who can control, grip and release and.. in a way.. you've become your own 'god'. All that said and your own 'leveling-up' aside, has the 'critical scholarship' (the thing we were talking about) has that done more good than harm? *I know you would like to choose your own questions to answer aka 'better questions' but we're here at: What has 'Critical Scholarship' done for us lately?
Length isn’t really an obstacle when one can read with ease and is genuine in one’s desire to communicate. I see Nunyo’s comment as loquacious rather than verbose.
This is one of those stories that I read about once and just accepted it uncritically because it made intuitive sense, but when you think about it more, it really doesn't. It's just so much simpler to suppose that it was a trance like those found in other religious rituals that don't require intoxicants.
@@ReligionForBreakfast To be fair to the ethylene theory, geology is tough. I work in environmental science and engineering and have lots of personal experience with fractured limestone. A common mistake made by environmental geoscientists, even very experienced ones, is not understanding how much fracturing can affect contaminant migration. I actually gave a presentation at the TxDOT environmental conference last year about a project I worked on in Dallas where there was a significant contaminant migration problem in a new highway construction caused by a fault that diverted the groundwater in a completely different direction than would be anticipated. Further, I've also seen subsurface vapors be concentrated and released in dangerous levels. This is actually quite common and can cause "sick building syndrome". It often happens because gasoline releases migrate under buildings and their vapors rise up through the foundation and concentrate in the building. I don't think it's impossible at all that the ancient people figured out a way to intentionally capture and concentrate geo-chemical gases. Focusing on ethylene specifically is a bit strange though. There are lots of other geo-chemical gasses that could cause similar reactions, and cause those reactions at much lower concentrations. It kind of makes me think that the researchers probably developed the gases theory and then went looking for gases and ethylene is the one they found. The release also might have gone away within a few years of it's discovery, and the Delphi people kept faking it for many years after that, because why turn off the money faucet?
I definitely feel like the oracle having blue lips would be the sort of thing ancient people would latch onto as a sign of her importance & therefore write about
The lips of someone deprived of oxygen aren't really that blue and wouldn't be noticed from a distance, especially in a dark cave. Also, as pointed out in the video, the effects dissipate within 5 to 15 minutes. Plus, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Pythia wore some sort of mask.
@@Banneord Spice didn't turn lips blue like it did the eyes. Anyway, as David said, hypoxic lips aren't super vibrant or conspicuous, they are more just desaturated.
I loved this video, particularly because it took a line between two opinions posed by some of my former professors: that either there was no gas leak or it was ethylene. That either she was high off ethylene or that she wasn’t in a trance at all but cynically giving pronouncements. I don’t see a reason to doubt the many sources saying there was a crag spewing some kind of gas, but that doesn’t mean that it necessarily had to be intoxicating in and of itself. It could have just as easily have been, as you’ve said, a physical element as a part of a more complex ritual. Personally I don’t enjoy writing off ancient authors entirely to believe we know so much more this many years later, and I don’t enjoy believing that we have a perfectly rational explanation either. Theories which offer a more nuanced interpretation always are more appealing to me, and I’m glad you made the conclusion you did.
This is fascinating! I grew up in a Pentecostal church and I was nodding my head aggressively while you described speaking in tongues as a learned behavior. I observed AND participated in speaking in tongues, “falling in the spirit,” prophesying, and uncontrollable laughing. All of these things are a complex mixture of genuine belief, feeling pressure of displaying yourself as holy, music, atmosphere, etc etc that causes feelings of being in a trance. Love how you thoroughly explained good scholarship. So glad I came affords your page- what a world we live in where I can listen to a lecture of this caliber on my couch. Thank you!!!
My parents sent me to a pentacostal rehab program for a year when I was a teenager. Several hours of prayer per day, mandatory daily “chapel” services, and forced manual labor. I’ll leave out the descriptions of abuse, but thankfully, this place no longer exists. I got in trouble there for not faking speaking in tongues. I remember that there was a group of us who were very skeptical about it after seeing the entire congregation babbling and sounding ridiculous. We were chastised, and told that if we “just open our mouths and start speaking, the words will come”. That’s all I needed to hear to know that this was fake, but one by one, that group of skeptical girls began “speaking” at our next chapel service. I didn’t ask them after if they were indeed faking it, because I already knew, and I didn’t want to embarrass them or call them out. The power of suggestion is immense. Especially on highly agreeable and impressionable teenaged girls.
@@dewilew2137 wow! You need to write down your experience if you haven’t already. You know exactly what it’s like being raised that way. Yes that’s how I was coached too- “open your mouth and start saying syllables, it will happen” and why did so many of us believe it, too?! I literally started babbling words that sounded like what I’d heard my whole life, but I thought this must be the magical words because that’s what the authority figures were telling me, and praising me as well. Such a bizarre niche group of people.
Ancient Oracles: My prophecies are correct. You are the one who intepreteed them wrong. Modern programmers: My code is correct. The problem is the user. Human nature neve changes :)
I am always a little skeptical about such scientific explanations for religious experience. Many modern secular people are so obsessed with trying to find the most rational explanation for things like trances and ignore the possibility for self induced states of altered consciousness. People cling to the idea of the gasses because it allows us to explain this phenomenon in the most rational way. If there is a lot of evidence for it then sure I'll buy it, but this reminds me of people claiming that Scandinavian berserkers were consuming mushrooms even though there is little to no evidence of this being true, just because that rationally explains this phenomenon.
Also I feel the same way about the "Salem witches were poisoned by fungus" theory. It's like people can't accept that cultural beliefs and social movements can have an effect on people's interactions with the world. No it has to be some scientific explanation.
The idea that mind altering drugs are some sort of "fake" spiritual experience is a product of the modern Puritanical anti drug frenzy. To the ancients, they were just a way of opening the door to the otherworld, communing with their spirit animals, and so on. It wasn't fake for them. A drug induced altered conscuousness is not somehow "unnatural" or not credible.
I really like this take since we sometimes forget that one of the most important tenets in science is to humble ourselves to what the evidence shows us. Without anything to go off of, we technically can't make a conclusion. Thus, it's ironically unscientific to assume our personal interpretations despite how rational we believe they are. Without evidence to humble ourselves to, we become susceptible to our own biases.
@@elfarlaur I remember learning about the ergot theory as a small side note during our 5th grade Salem Witch unit (and hmm, I thought the theory was that the common folk who instigated witch hunts were the ones who were effected by ergot; not the so-called witches themselves). I think the reason why this theory didn't bother me too much even when thinking about it 25 years later was due to how the possibility isn't mutually exclusive from the cultural, sociological, and psychological priming of the time. But yeah, if anyone would ONLY place emphasis on the ergot theory, I'd agree with you that that's a bit inane.
@@elfarlaur Cultural beliefs just have an effect on how you interpret your physical reaction to ergot poisoning. Fungal growth on crops is quite common in wet weather. This is why the U.S. government and other modern governments require testing for fungal poisons in grain crops before they are brought to market for human consumption. A hundred years ago, you would have been far more likely to experience such poisoning personally or to know of cases--and then you would be less contemptuous.
I've heard the "high on gas" hypothesis before, but what I never realized - as I've never done any proper research on the subject - is just how LONG the Oracle of Delphi was a profession. Just goes to show how insidious the "great man" theory is that any time I hear a historical title my default assumption is that it refers to a single person in time, and not a legacy that can span centuries. But with this new understanding, it becomes much more reasonable to me that vaporous gases - at best - only inspired the holiness of the location and likely played little role in the Oracle's actual rituals. You just don't go multiple centuries telling fortunes if your ritual involves toxic fumes. That's a quick way to wind up with no future volunteers
Actually there is detailed description on the toxic effects of the inhaled gases and the rituals around it to mitigate their risks, e.g fasting over multiple days in advance of entering the adyton to prevent vomiting sickness. One story describes that the oracle priestess had been pressured by the priest to enter the adyton without this preparation and she died from the induced medical complication. This squares quite well with the observed risks of using ethylen as a narcotic in hospitals which is among the reasons why we've stopped using it for that purpose.
No doubt the next generation will go back to the 'great man" theory just for the fun of contradicting your generation. This is all so petty. There are both social movements AND people who can make big changes at a crucial point in history. For example, if not for Henry VIII's difficulty getting a divorce, England might have stayed Catholic. However, if not for Martin Luther and the Protestant movement, Henry probably would never have had the idea to dump the Pope to get what he wanted.
You always hear about "The Oracle of Delphi" but never her name. One gets the sense that the woman herself was not the important part, but rather, the function of the station. Imagine how confusing Christian history would be if every Pope was just always referred to as "The Pope."
I’m so glad you made this video since I was under the impression that the natural gas theory was widely accepted by historians. It actually served as an important lesson for me as a history student to think more critically about ancient texts, as there is guaranteed to be missing context.
yes good job thinking critically by taking this guy's word.... there are still large number of historians' who stand by the gas theory. And he didn't really do a good job countering all the points he made for the Gas idea. such as Gas can rise out the ground no where near fault lines, it is irrelevant. There just is not a nail in the coffin for the Gas theory or else the idea would have already died. I don't think we will ever truly know, unless it was written in great detail , by a priest who was in the know of the highly kept secrets, and we discover said writing. ( cough* gods and Magic are not real cough*) Both Trace and gas to me are equally plausible, unless I'm missing something, in which case im always ready to learn.
Before watching this, I'm already reminded of that one scene in the Simpsons where characters having visions of their own personal heaven was later revealed to be breathing in a leaking gas pipe.
This was the second video in a row in which you got visibly and audibly agitated when rebutting popular theories :D Nothing bad, rather nice to see how passionate you are about the subject. Thanks for another great video!
I’d heard the remark about her being high in the movie “300,” did a couple of Google searches, and figured the case was closed 15 years ago. I’m so grateful to be able to extend my history education through your channel.
Waned in prominence in the Roman period. Cicero laments its disuse. Hadrian briefly tried to revive it. Ended during the Christianization of the Empire.
If I remember correctly it was the Christian Roman emperor Theodosius I who finally shut down the temple and the oracle. But it was in decline before then.
@@ReligionForBreakfast can you do a video on biblical prophecy like how according to the Bible was a prophet chosen or to be known. Like does the hebrew god just have to use them or is there a process and why does the Bible speak against mediums and those who commune with the dead
@@torisantiago9176 There really isnt much difference between the two, a medium and a prophet, (speaking as a clairvoyant myself.) A medium "taps into" 4 intermentional octaves, physical, emotional, mental and identity realms. Spirits dwell in all four. Prophets and mystics commune with a 5th or "ascended realm" where everything is in alignment with the mind of God, which isnt perfection, but constant self-transcendence and progressive revelation. Mediums for the majority of the time, dont neccessarily have the spiritual purity or maturity to commune with this realm regardless of gifts. Revelation is personal and to meet one's destiny or divine plan, not avoid it. As Jesus did not run away, as painful as it was, when recieving revelation that he would be taken in the garden of Gethsemane is an example. A prophet is chosen in his or her divine plan before birth, but can self sabotage if they dont follow their intuition. They also occur when people are the most "cut-off" from their own intuition or ability to access gnosis. As you see, there is a natural upward momentum on most of earth, that of growth, the greatest downward momentum is STILL the Middle East to this day. Islam, Judaism and Christianity was born there simply because it was the worst. Prophets recieve, but not always some type of protective mantle from imposter spirits, mediums do not. Some prophets were chosen for different reasons including their ability to be successful in a leadership role, not neccessarily their maturity. Sometimes when a prophet thinks they are communing with an angel, they are not and even they are fooled. Sin, or misqualification of God's light through impersonation or karma is incurred yet it happens A LOT. Free will allows it to happen. Impersonation in mediumshop is explicitly stated in the Quran, but it isnt exclusively true. Muslims think all encounters of dead relatives are Djinn, though its prudent to suspect it, it isnt always so. Hope this helps. Its not academic but thats experience triangulated between historical experience, peer comparison with other seers and study.
Another super interesting video, my friend! I had also never heard of the follow up studies and had thought gaseous emission high was a very likely explanation! Your research has convinced me otherwise. I look forward to reading the follow up studies! Thanks for teaching me right, Brother!!
Sometimes I wonder if the Pythia ever gets "performance anxiety." Like if the visions stop happening one day for an extended period for any given reason, does the Priestess just say Apollo is not doing his part, or make up something very cryptic so one one can ever guess she was making it up?
Real witches use a trance or a weaving to help with prophecy. The Pythia would train and attune to the actual spirit of Apollo the Oneiromancer, to know and feel for when she should enter the temple where the fumes would induce her trance, they used it as a tool.
@@chiknscratch the definition of magic is that of the supernatural, aka, not real. there might be some better words to describe the things you believe in that are actually real, but your 3 word blanket statement is entirely incorrect from the start.
Ask any mystic, you can definitely get into altered states of consciousness with no chemicals at all. In my time as a charismatic Christian, I frequently received and gave visions, dreams, prophecies etc, and I wasn't high. Yes, of course drugs/chemicals can account for it, but it's not the only way. Dancing, fasting, meditation, silent "listening", and more have been used to "get into the spirit". Plus, some tiny percent of people can fall into a trance and have a visionary experience without doing anything. They are just wired that way. Lastly, never overlook that they could have just been making things up to make money. It's a mistake to think that everybody used only one method when it reality it was probably lots of different things.
@@mastasexyrobotblasta4790 Not really. That was implied in the part about some people spontaneously have these experiences without doing anything. But yeah, some mental illness used to be viewed as a gift from the gods and many shamans and such were likely mentally ill. But then again, was it truly an illness if they fit in to their societies?
@@mastasexyrobotblasta4790 Who's definition of mental illness? It's totally subjective, depending on your culture, what behaviors are "normal" and which aren't. People who are diagnosed as "mentally ill" today were once honored as being chosen by gods.
If there really was a crack in the earth, it could have been just air coming from some other opening in the mountains, then all they'd need to do is light a bundle of tinder with incense and herbs at the inlet and the smoke gets carried to the Oracle. Boom, instant ancient fog machine for their religious stage play.
I visited Greece on a study tour through my college a few years ago and I remember being quite excited to learn about Delphi, and your breakdown of the scholarship regarding our understanding of the trance state was highly informative and backs up what I recall our professor discussing about the speculation and how we don't know for sure. It truly is a beautiful site and was quite a climb to get there. Looking forward to exploring more of your channel.
About the practising good scholarship: I fully agree. The downside is, that when you are not very active in the field, it has hard to keep up with the recent articles. It is nice to have channels as this one, that keep us up to date with more recent articles. So good work and keep it up.
Nice discussion. I do suspect the gases had *some* effect (oxygen deprivation, CO2, Carbon monoxide toxicity). Chewing on plant leaves does raise a reasonable suspicion of hallucinogenic effects. A whole "cocktail" of influences may well have been developed over the many years of operation. This might include music, incense, chanting, maybe rhythmic dance. The whole process may have been as much to impress the pilgrims as induce a trance state.
Dr. Gregory S. Aldrete is my favorite lecturer from The Great Sources/Wondrium! His different lecture series cover all the greatest hits of the ancient Mediterranean world and as Lindybeige once said "Wow, does that man have SHOULDERS!"
I have been to Delphoi in 2006 or 2007. Could not find the pythia and had no visions of my own even afrer a day of hiking in Apollo’s sacred forest and taking a bath in the cold springs of Aphrodite. Magnificent place. You don’t need to be high to have visions and spew prophecies. They might have been able to smell some gases in the onphalon, but their belief that the gas gave them visions was probably the strongest force. Giving naturalistic explanations to religious experiences is a good first step, but as an absolute layperson it seems to me that scholars often forget about the power of the human psyche even if you look at relatively simple phenomenon like the placebo effect. If the pythia was raised from childhood in the belief that she can see the future as a part of this ritual, and their environment would constantly validate this belief then you’d be hard pressed to find a priestess who would simply come forward and say “nope it’s all fake, the only thing you can smell is our sweat and farts.”
I visited Delphi many years ago and I had the most strange experience. I was walking with my brother and a group of people just where the oracle use to sit to receive messages. Suddenly I could hear like a numbing sound coming from the mountains. Then I start feeling like a subtle vibration in my legs coming from the ground. After a while I could feel through my whole body. I looked around and found out that I was not the only one having this experience. Till today I never had an explanation of what that was.
Go to Delphi. Then tell me that nothing mystical is going on there. I’ve been there. The Earth didn’t shake that day but it was definitely a holy place.
I remember my first year classics lecturer being very sceptical of the gas theory. It was apparently his thing, whenever discussion of the oracle at delphi came up, that he would go on about the earthly vapors, and not trusting the opinions of every dead philosopher.
15:15 Isn't that just going to the other extreme though? I agree an 800 years gas leak is unrealistic, but that wouldn't be necessary for the whole duration. Once the place becomes famous for divination and the temple is already built, economic and cultural pressure would keep the show running long after any supposed magic fumes have ran out.
19:50 Ok now I need a video on glossolalia. I'm so fascinated by Pentecostalism. I knew a lot of pentecostals growing up and I always wanted to go to my friends church cause it sounded really fun but my Baptist parents wouldn't let me.
Fantastic job expanding on a very interesting subject in a clear and straightforward way. While I hadn't formed a definitive view on the subject of ethylene, I wasn't at all aware of the compounding arguments against it. You have a remarkable scientific integrity, which I admire very much. My own very much non scholarly theory would be that it probably was several different forces at work. The Oracle itself would have had an interest in perpetuating the legend, so it might have been anything from a cynical act to genuine drug induced trance, and it could have changed over time and/or just periodically. Maybe once a period of volcanic activity (or some other circumstance) caused a proro-oracle to get visions at that location, and later generations just built on that with whatever means they found to keep going.
Our Australian equivalent would be Nimbin. When you walk through this town you hear women’s voices whisper “want a cookie?”. So I bought a couple - boy did I see the future, past, sounds & a kangaroo that did a crazy wrap. Recommended 🖖🏼🌈
I went into this with the same assumption and I’m glad you laid out the argument in favor in full faith and then also laid out the counter. Very good work!
Years ago I visited Delpi early in the morning and had the whole place to myself. I was surprised to find such a complete stadium at the top of the hill.
I found the ethylene gas hypotheses very compelling when it was first posited. Was unaware of push back from other experts and scholars. Thanks for disabusing me of this theory.
22:18 The hermit's place that's "filled with a sweetest perfume breathing from his mouth" when he speaks (Plutarch, de defectu oraculorum, par 21) is arguably just an ironic euphemism for "bad breath" (dental hygiene might not have been as advanced then as it is today) considering Plutarch's text is about "The Failure of Oracles". But that is no basis to conclude that Plutarch's information on the Delphi oracle would be wrong. Ancient writers weren't necessarily bad observers. E.g., Pliny the Younger's description of a pyroclastic flow to have occurred at the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79 AD was considered an impossible thing to happen until we witnessed it being possible during the eruption of Mount St. Helens in 1980....
Plutarch was highly-educated, a member of the Delphic Priesthood and an accomplished writer. He gave us a very detailed description of the Oracle and I see no reason to doubt his eyewitness account.
I’ve always been curious if it was a gas but not natural. For instance a room or crevasse below the oracles room that temple priestesses would lite coals and add frankincense and other herbs ontop, with one of the herbs being psychoactive
Really interesting. I have an oblique question. How did the prestige of the Delphic oracle change the cult of Apollo? I have a sneaky suspicion that he used to be both smaller and scarier, but that the priesthood of Delphi managed a pretty big reimagining and pr overhaul. Probably not enough evidence left to make that case though…
23:25 On your question why the gases affected only the oracle priestess: possible answers can range from ritual use of stimulants (like inhaling the concentrated gases directly from the Omphalos without poisoning the whole room) to ritual context (e.g. the effect of fasting or special diet before the priestess commenced the ritual - in early times once a year, later once a month from Spring to Autumn).
Thank you for this video. There have been a couple of recent TV programs that came to the conclusion that it was the effect of the fumes and presented that as fact. I don't know what the explanation might be, but it's good to know there is still room for investigation.
OMG that model you use to illustrate the procession looks exactly like the in game map of Delphi in the game Titan Quest. So cool that the Greeks tried to model their temple after a game like that.
amateur chemist here. The room could fill with CO2 easily if it was below the entrance. edit: or even had curtains drapped at the entrance, like how walk in freezers keep cold air in with plastic. carbon dioxide is heavier than the air and will pool like water but it is not a drowsiness you can speak coherently. nitrous oxide would be my bet though, N2O. it is much denser than air and it gives a sweet oder and has an effect that wears off really fast. that might explain why the oracle sat up high in the room while the person entering would be lower. they would feel the effect more intensely and she would be able to keep a relatively clear head. the most telling thing imo is that they only held prophesy 9 times a year. if there was no one walking in and out of the temple during that time, disturbing the air, it would collect much faster. idk, i don't know the architecture or the bts ritual practice. i know nothing about geology but a thousand or two years (I assume) could change how much gas gets produced. this is not to say these points are slam dunks but like... come on. go there and put a plastic bag over a spout for a month and see how much and which gas you collect.
OMG I was not expecting to see you cite Dr. Lehoux! I'm in the Classics Master's Program at Queens University and while I haven't had any classes with him, nor is he my supervisor, I've talked with him a few times (It's a small department).
hey sir im pumped to watch this vid, right up my alley, but i first need to thank you for your channel name as it pulled me out of Phone Mode and made me realize i need breakfast. very excited to have a side of religion with it
Great video! I would just like to add about the plant Pythia is supposed to chew, we call it Dafne, it is used for food but if you use too much you get dizzy when you eat. Also the other plant you showed, we call that bitter-Dafne, is known to be toxic but not in a fun "put you in a trance" way. Another thing, I would like to suggest it may have been a combination of many factors as we see in many cultures where the shaman is a specific person, and they may combine psychoactive with specific rituals and routines and only then they can get the spiritual experience. Lastly, it is important to remember that in ancient Greece the specifics of the "mysteries", or the practices of the different temples, where not supposed to be shared openly but rather cloaked with codespeak and symbolisms that only specific people would understand. Again thanks for the great video.
Fantastic work! I was also coming here expecting to hear about that one article from twenty years ago and how cool it was that the oracle breathed vapors. I don't know these other scholars, but I have always enjoyed Hall's work.
John R Hale from U of Louisville worked with a geologist and his study supports the fissures and ethylene gas theory. He has a detailed lecture available on TH-cam.
I really admire you and your passion for understanding the multiple belief systems humanity has conjured up. I truly respect the contributions to my historical knowledge. I had the opportunity to visit Delphi back in the 1970's and have always been fascinated by the Greek contributions to our modern world, in the west. I do think, however, that the Asian side of humanity doesn't get the same credit and understanding that we have for the Western 'paradigms'
It is entirely possible that Plutarch and Paul were referring to the song Pneuma by Tool as the divine substance. The song, given its awesomeness, can easily explain the sensation experienced by the oracle and those who visited her. The song was played by the oracle for herself and her visitors, and it made them go into a headbanging frenzy. The same happened to Paul when he later streamed the song. I don't understand why no one else has thought about this before. Some might say that this would require time travel. And, indeed, the song transcends space and time.
Great video. And yes totally agree with you that intoxication hypothesis is not needed and is just wrong according to how many Greeks understand how oracles were done. You are right to approach it as a combination of elements.
Thank you for discussing the different scholarly theories and going through liberalism. Not only are you teaching us about this particular topic but also encouraging critical thinking.
Great video, I too was under the impression that the 2000 study was the authority on the subject. I tend to think they knew the “narcotic trance” theory was an immensely attractive, and more importantly commercially viable, story. Hence the amount of books that include it in their accounts and investigations of “alt-history”, which sells very, VERY, well.
Professor Elizabeth Vandiver was really the best teacher at The great courses it is so sad we can't have more of her courses in there or anywhere online.
Hi! Thanks for this! FYI the MGrieves Modern Herbal originally published in 1931, describes Laurus Nobilis as having an excitant and narcotic property. Also Diaphoretic. In the section describing it's Medicinal Actions and uses. Also mentions that Deplhic priestessess made use of the leaves.
Excellent video! I love your channel so much! I’m currently writing a fantasy/historical fiction novel involving the Oracle of Delphi and this is a magnificent source!!
So I guess a really great thing to come from these questions, is harder scrutiny of the facts... but without the consequence of virality I really, really love this video.
Well done, sir. I like very much that you took the time and effort to research topics such as chemistry and tectonics that are well outside your usual boundaries. Additionally, you provided cogent and persuasive arguments for how a better understanding of cultural context could improve research quality in more technical domains. You are a good model for all researchers.
Btw this story of one article shaping the social concept of things reminds me about the story of an article that suggested Marco Polo had never went to china. It is not widely known these days as some historians (who hold Marco Polo deep in their hearts) made a serious debunking campaign against it showing how many of the arguments were just… false. I think this shows up the other part of our human nature - we tend to love have extremely precise, scientific explanations and we find it hard to believe that things might’ve been more straightforward. (The other part is the one making us believe in ghosts trying to kill us just because the knife fell on the floor)
I agree about the importance of scholarship and a critical attitude. As a clinician trained in both meditation and hypnosis, I know that it is possible to enter into trance by non-pharmacologic means. Trance is important to mantic function, but not necessary, so I think the case of how the Pythia worked is open but explainable by known means.
It will probably be a highly debated point Many cultures in history have used mediums such as herbs, or teas, etc,. To induce a state in which you can "fully hear" I'm a reformist myself but I can appreciate another's cultural histories
The Nechung State Oracle of Tibet comes to mind. Similar technique and interpretation practice. There may be entheogens involved (dutsi), but more than anything, the Nechung is highly trained in the oracular technique. The monastic embodying the Oracle has some interesting explanations of this.
I believe something similar happened to Mohammed when he wrote the Quran. He too spent his time in a cave meditating. And he came up with some wild crazy rules.
This kind of makes me wonder about the ancient Egyptian site of Hermopolis, the cult center of the god Thoth, because Thoth was, according to Egyptian mythology, the inventor of opium. I wonder if Hermopolis has any remaining evidence of opium use as part of a cult of Thoth. It would be an interesting find I think.
I really dislike the hypothesis that mystical experiences are primarily due to hallucinogenic drugs or mental illness. Not only does this discount the accounts of sober and sane individuals, it also discounts the accounts of intoxicated and mentally ill people. Mentally ill people can be credible witnesses occasionally and mentally well people can be unreliable witnesses.
I actually see the mental illness angle as potentially more validating in some circumstances. If shamans, oracles, sages, gurus, or prophets were neurodiverse, then that means societies existed where having a mind that works differently was valued and rewarded instead of ostracized. I see that as a model that society can potentially build on. I would love to get high and give people cryptic autistic advice instead of trying to contort myself into fitting the right mold for a regular job.
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
Signup for your FREE trial to Wondrium here: ow.ly/ywMs30s6YK2
Would you consider covering topics such as Ayahuasca, Amanita Muscaria, and/or Salvia Divinorum?
These psychedelics have had major impacts of occult and main stream belief systems. They also have major keys to unlocking certain features of our brains. I can go in depth and provide links to follow. Waking people up to these paradigms of reality is crucial for those who want curiosity over comfort.
Hey man, great presentation. I was wondering, could Cannabis have some part to play in this mind altering state?
Also, I sense some very strong occult masonic influence here.
You actually gave credence to a book with a foreword by Graysham Hack-Crock?
{:-:-:}
@@evabraunsnewjewishhusband2510 the church is in the mind as is the Kingdom to come. Better yet, look into Kabbalah and Occultism. Combine it with Christianity and Eastern Philosophy. You'd get a better picture much faster this way...
Speaking of religious trances, I would love for you to do a video on musical use in religion. Basically every religion I can think of uses music in one form or another to achieve various ritualistic purposes. I would be interesting to see a compare and contrast style review of these.
I love the fact that you don't just teach us something about ancient religions, you teach about good scholarship and critical analysis. Those are such important skills for everyone to practice
Especially these days.
Are they though? What good have they brought us and what harm?
@@theasianjaywalker4455 I think a better question would be to examine what harm inti-intellectualism does. Which is immeasurable harm. People being unable to think for themselves just makes everyone a shallow reactionary who gets easily duped by every scam, and is easy to control.
Everybody benefits from being given the tools to examine the information presented to them, understand what that information says, and draw their own conclusions independently. Education and tools of critical thinking give people freedom.
Why scoff at people who can think for themselves 🤔. I could draw some conclusions on who you are and what you value based on your reductionist comment that undervalues education, for example. And I could try to glean what your comment is trying to accomplish by comparing it to similar comments on similar subjects from other people. I could also browse your page and see what other comments you leave on other videos, or see what other videos you tend to watch... and my critical analysis skills could help me write up a series of sick burns to hurt you personally. Or I could be mature and do the right thing, and get you into a mature discussion about how you should be thinking a little harder about why you believe what you believe, and why you think some things are true instead of others. I could encourage you to question the sources of the information you get, and give you the tools to tell when someone is lying to you for an agenda. Because everyone benefits from being able to think critically. And everyone deserves to have that benefit.
@@Nunyo-Bizznez So, to break down the verbose reply you've come up with:
It's a kind of formula that has made you a superior being, no longer able to control - you've now become the one who can control, grip and release and.. in a way.. you've become your own 'god'.
All that said and your own 'leveling-up' aside, has the 'critical scholarship' (the thing we were talking about) has that done more good than harm?
*I know you would like to choose your own questions to answer aka 'better questions' but we're here at: What has 'Critical Scholarship' done for us lately?
Length isn’t really an obstacle when one can read with ease and is genuine in one’s desire to communicate. I see Nunyo’s comment as loquacious rather than verbose.
This is one of those stories that I read about once and just accepted it uncritically because it made intuitive sense, but when you think about it more, it really doesn't. It's just so much simpler to suppose that it was a trance like those found in other religious rituals that don't require intoxicants.
That was my journey when making this video. I went from believer to "huh...maybe this doesn't make sense."
@@ReligionForBreakfast To be fair to the ethylene theory, geology is tough. I work in environmental science and engineering and have lots of personal experience with fractured limestone. A common mistake made by environmental geoscientists, even very experienced ones, is not understanding how much fracturing can affect contaminant migration. I actually gave a presentation at the TxDOT environmental conference last year about a project I worked on in Dallas where there was a significant contaminant migration problem in a new highway construction caused by a fault that diverted the groundwater in a completely different direction than would be anticipated.
Further, I've also seen subsurface vapors be concentrated and released in dangerous levels. This is actually quite common and can cause "sick building syndrome". It often happens because gasoline releases migrate under buildings and their vapors rise up through the foundation and concentrate in the building. I don't think it's impossible at all that the ancient people figured out a way to intentionally capture and concentrate geo-chemical gases. Focusing on ethylene specifically is a bit strange though.
There are lots of other geo-chemical gasses that could cause similar reactions, and cause those reactions at much lower concentrations. It kind of makes me think that the researchers probably developed the gases theory and then went looking for gases and ethylene is the one they found. The release also might have gone away within a few years of it's discovery, and the Delphi people kept faking it for many years after that, because why turn off the money faucet?
Or just acting.
@@DallasMay fascinating information thank you
@@DallasMay this is why I read comments
I definitely feel like the oracle having blue lips would be the sort of thing ancient people would latch onto as a sign of her importance & therefore write about
The lips of someone deprived of oxygen aren't really that blue and wouldn't be noticed from a distance, especially in a dark cave. Also, as pointed out in the video, the effects dissipate within 5 to 15 minutes. Plus, I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Pythia wore some sort of mask.
@@dirremoire Well, this reminds me of Dune's spice.
@@Banneord Spice didn't turn lips blue like it did the eyes. Anyway, as David said, hypoxic lips aren't super vibrant or conspicuous, they are more just desaturated.
@@Tinil0 they look more bruised colour
Having had hypoxia. Your lips go a washed out, bluish tinge I guess, more white and 'drained' looking.
I loved this video, particularly because it took a line between two opinions posed by some of my former professors: that either there was no gas leak or it was ethylene. That either she was high off ethylene or that she wasn’t in a trance at all but cynically giving pronouncements. I don’t see a reason to doubt the many sources saying there was a crag spewing some kind of gas, but that doesn’t mean that it necessarily had to be intoxicating in and of itself. It could have just as easily have been, as you’ve said, a physical element as a part of a more complex ritual. Personally I don’t enjoy writing off ancient authors entirely to believe we know so much more this many years later, and I don’t enjoy believing that we have a perfectly rational explanation either. Theories which offer a more nuanced interpretation always are more appealing to me, and I’m glad you made the conclusion you did.
This is fascinating! I grew up in a Pentecostal church and I was nodding my head aggressively while you described speaking in tongues as a learned behavior. I observed AND participated in speaking in tongues, “falling in the spirit,” prophesying, and uncontrollable laughing. All of these things are a complex mixture of genuine belief, feeling pressure of displaying yourself as holy, music, atmosphere, etc etc that causes feelings of being in a trance. Love how you thoroughly explained good scholarship. So glad I came affords your page- what a world we live in where I can listen to a lecture of this caliber on my couch. Thank you!!!
My parents sent me to a pentacostal rehab program for a year when I was a teenager. Several hours of prayer per day, mandatory daily “chapel” services, and forced manual labor. I’ll leave out the descriptions of abuse, but thankfully, this place no longer exists.
I got in trouble there for not faking speaking in tongues. I remember that there was a group of us who were very skeptical about it after seeing the entire congregation babbling and sounding ridiculous. We were chastised, and told that if we “just open our mouths and start speaking, the words will come”. That’s all I needed to hear to know that this was fake, but one by one, that group of skeptical girls began “speaking” at our next chapel service. I didn’t ask them after if they were indeed faking it, because I already knew, and I didn’t want to embarrass them or call them out. The power of suggestion is immense. Especially on highly agreeable and impressionable teenaged girls.
@@dewilew2137 wow! You need to write down your experience if you haven’t already. You know exactly what it’s like being raised that way. Yes that’s how I was coached too- “open your mouth and start saying syllables, it will happen” and why did so many of us believe it, too?! I literally started babbling words that sounded like what I’d heard my whole life, but I thought this must be the magical words because that’s what the authority figures were telling me, and praising me as well. Such a bizarre niche group of people.
Very fascinating to hear your stories, thank you for sharing
@@cornercarton thank you for reading ❤️
Ancient Oracles: My prophecies are correct. You are the one who intepreteed them wrong.
Modern programmers: My code is correct. The problem is the user.
Human nature neve changes :)
❤ lol
Maybe they were both high when they made their lines.
Muffled Laughter.
Laughs quietly after spending years in Oracle database software...
@@user-wr3vt8uq4s Your comment on this string is the best.
I am always a little skeptical about such scientific explanations for religious experience. Many modern secular people are so obsessed with trying to find the most rational explanation for things like trances and ignore the possibility for self induced states of altered consciousness. People cling to the idea of the gasses because it allows us to explain this phenomenon in the most rational way. If there is a lot of evidence for it then sure I'll buy it, but this reminds me of people claiming that Scandinavian berserkers were consuming mushrooms even though there is little to no evidence of this being true, just because that rationally explains this phenomenon.
Also I feel the same way about the "Salem witches were poisoned by fungus" theory. It's like people can't accept that cultural beliefs and social movements can have an effect on people's interactions with the world. No it has to be some scientific explanation.
The idea that mind altering drugs are some sort of "fake" spiritual experience is a product of the modern Puritanical anti drug frenzy. To the ancients, they were just a way of opening the door to the otherworld, communing with their spirit animals, and so on. It wasn't fake for them. A drug induced altered conscuousness is not somehow "unnatural" or not credible.
I really like this take since we sometimes forget that one of the most important tenets in science is to humble ourselves to what the evidence shows us. Without anything to go off of, we technically can't make a conclusion. Thus, it's ironically unscientific to assume our personal interpretations despite how rational we believe they are. Without evidence to humble ourselves to, we become susceptible to our own biases.
@@elfarlaur I remember learning about the ergot theory as a small side note during our 5th grade Salem Witch unit (and hmm, I thought the theory was that the common folk who instigated witch hunts were the ones who were effected by ergot; not the so-called witches themselves). I think the reason why this theory didn't bother me too much even when thinking about it 25 years later was due to how the possibility isn't mutually exclusive from the cultural, sociological, and psychological priming of the time. But yeah, if anyone would ONLY place emphasis on the ergot theory, I'd agree with you that that's a bit inane.
@@elfarlaur Cultural beliefs just have an effect on how you interpret your physical reaction to ergot poisoning. Fungal growth on crops is quite common in wet weather. This is why the U.S. government and other modern governments require testing for fungal poisons in grain crops before they are brought to market for human consumption. A hundred years ago, you would have been far more likely to experience such poisoning personally or to know of cases--and then you would be less contemptuous.
I've heard the "high on gas" hypothesis before, but what I never realized - as I've never done any proper research on the subject - is just how LONG the Oracle of Delphi was a profession. Just goes to show how insidious the "great man" theory is that any time I hear a historical title my default assumption is that it refers to a single person in time, and not a legacy that can span centuries. But with this new understanding, it becomes much more reasonable to me that vaporous gases - at best - only inspired the holiness of the location and likely played little role in the Oracle's actual rituals. You just don't go multiple centuries telling fortunes if your ritual involves toxic fumes. That's a quick way to wind up with no future volunteers
Actually there is detailed description on the toxic effects of the inhaled gases and the rituals around it to mitigate their risks, e.g fasting over multiple days in advance of entering the adyton to prevent vomiting sickness. One story describes that the oracle priestess had been pressured by the priest to enter the adyton without this preparation and she died from the induced medical complication. This squares quite well with the observed risks of using ethylen as a narcotic in hospitals which is among the reasons why we've stopped using it for that purpose.
@oaktree_ actually, we do, see my comment below.
No doubt the next generation will go back to the 'great man" theory just for the fun of contradicting your generation. This is all so petty. There are both social movements AND people who can make big changes at a crucial point in history. For example, if not for Henry VIII's difficulty getting a divorce, England might have stayed Catholic. However, if not for Martin Luther and the Protestant movement, Henry probably would never have had the idea to dump the Pope to get what he wanted.
LAWL.
You always hear about "The Oracle of Delphi" but never her name. One gets the sense that the woman herself was not the important part, but rather, the function of the station. Imagine how confusing Christian history would be if every Pope was just always referred to as "The Pope."
I’m so glad you made this video since I was under the impression that the natural gas theory was widely accepted by historians. It actually served as an important lesson for me as a history student to think more critically about ancient texts, as there is guaranteed to be missing context.
yes good job thinking critically by taking this guy's word.... there are still large number of historians' who stand by the gas theory. And he didn't really do a good job countering all the points he made for the Gas idea. such as Gas can rise out the ground no where near fault lines, it is irrelevant. There just is not a nail in the coffin for the Gas theory or else the idea would have already died. I don't think we will ever truly know, unless it was written in great detail , by a priest who was in the know of the highly kept secrets, and we discover said writing.
( cough* gods and Magic are not real cough*) Both Trace and gas to me are equally plausible, unless I'm missing something, in which case im always ready to learn.
Before watching this, I'm already reminded of that one scene in the Simpsons where characters having visions of their own personal heaven was later revealed to be breathing in a leaking gas pipe.
Yeah, the episode with Flanders' theme park
This was the second video in a row in which you got visibly and audibly agitated when rebutting popular theories :D Nothing bad, rather nice to see how passionate you are about the subject. Thanks for another great video!
I’d heard the remark about her being high in the movie “300,” did a couple of Google searches, and figured the case was closed 15 years ago. I’m so grateful to be able to extend my history education through your channel.
To be clear, in 300 he isn’t consulting the Delphic oracle.
I'm curious to know when did the Oracle fall out of use? Does its falling out of use give any clues as to what may have triggered the visions?
Waned in prominence in the Roman period. Cicero laments its disuse. Hadrian briefly tried to revive it. Ended during the Christianization of the Empire.
If I remember correctly it was the Christian Roman emperor Theodosius I who finally shut down the temple and the oracle. But it was in decline before then.
"Certainty brings insanity"?
@@ReligionForBreakfast can you do a video on biblical prophecy like how according to the Bible was a prophet chosen or to be known. Like does the hebrew god just have to use them or is there a process and why does the Bible speak against mediums and those who commune with the dead
@@torisantiago9176 There really isnt much difference between the two, a medium and a prophet, (speaking as a clairvoyant myself.) A medium "taps into" 4 intermentional octaves, physical, emotional, mental and identity realms. Spirits dwell in all four. Prophets and mystics commune with a 5th or "ascended realm" where everything is in alignment with the mind of God, which isnt perfection, but constant self-transcendence and progressive revelation. Mediums for the majority of the time, dont neccessarily have the spiritual purity or maturity to commune with this realm regardless of gifts. Revelation is personal and to meet one's destiny or divine plan, not avoid it. As Jesus did not run away, as painful as it was, when recieving revelation that he would be taken in the garden of Gethsemane is an example. A prophet is chosen in his or her divine plan before birth, but can self sabotage if they dont follow their intuition. They also occur when people are the most "cut-off" from their own intuition or ability to access gnosis. As you see, there is a natural upward momentum on most of earth, that of growth, the greatest downward momentum is STILL the Middle East to this day. Islam, Judaism and Christianity was born there simply because it was the worst. Prophets recieve, but not always some type of protective mantle from imposter spirits, mediums do not. Some prophets were chosen for different reasons including their ability to be successful in a leadership role, not neccessarily their maturity. Sometimes when a prophet thinks they are communing with an angel, they are not and even they are fooled. Sin, or misqualification of God's light through impersonation or karma is incurred yet it happens A LOT. Free will allows it to happen. Impersonation in mediumshop is explicitly stated in the Quran, but it isnt exclusively true. Muslims think all encounters of dead relatives are Djinn, though its prudent to suspect it, it isnt always so. Hope this helps. Its not academic but thats experience triangulated between historical experience, peer comparison with other seers and study.
Yes... more ancient greek (and ancient) religion videos please... 🤞
Another super interesting video, my friend! I had also never heard of the follow up studies and had thought gaseous emission high was a very likely explanation! Your research has convinced me otherwise. I look forward to reading the follow up studies! Thanks for teaching me right, Brother!!
Sometimes I wonder if the Pythia ever gets "performance anxiety." Like if the visions stop happening one day for an extended period for any given reason, does the Priestess just say Apollo is not doing his part, or make up something very cryptic so one one can ever guess she was making it up?
Real witches use a trance or a weaving to help with prophecy. The Pythia would train and attune to the actual spirit of Apollo the Oneiromancer, to know and feel for when she should enter the temple where the fumes would induce her trance, they used it as a tool.
they were charlatans..
@@cdreid9999 magic is real.
@@chiknscratch I am going to eat your son
@@chiknscratch the definition of magic is that of the supernatural, aka, not real. there might be some better words to describe the things you believe in that are actually real, but your 3 word blanket statement is entirely incorrect from the start.
I love the story from Herodotus about Croesus "scientifically" testing the Greek oracles.
Ask any mystic, you can definitely get into altered states of consciousness with no chemicals at all. In my time as a charismatic Christian, I frequently received and gave visions, dreams, prophecies etc, and I wasn't high. Yes, of course drugs/chemicals can account for it, but it's not the only way. Dancing, fasting, meditation, silent "listening", and more have been used to "get into the spirit".
Plus, some tiny percent of people can fall into a trance and have a visionary experience without doing anything. They are just wired that way.
Lastly, never overlook that they could have just been making things up to make money. It's a mistake to think that everybody used only one method when it reality it was probably lots of different things.
You forgot mental illness
@@mastasexyrobotblasta4790 Not really. That was implied in the part about some people spontaneously have these experiences without doing anything. But yeah, some mental illness used to be viewed as a gift from the gods and many shamans and such were likely mentally ill.
But then again, was it truly an illness if they fit in to their societies?
People in some cultures do deliberately take hallucinogens to have visions.
@@mastasexyrobotblasta4790 Who's definition of mental illness? It's totally subjective, depending on your culture, what behaviors are "normal" and which aren't. People who are diagnosed as "mentally ill" today were once honored as being chosen by gods.
It really seems people forgot that altered states of consciousness can happen in anyone.
If there really was a crack in the earth, it could have been just air coming from some other opening in the mountains, then all they'd need to do is light a bundle of tinder with incense and herbs at the inlet and the smoke gets carried to the Oracle. Boom, instant ancient fog machine for their religious stage play.
How easy to miss so many highly serious counter-arguments when one theory ringing to ears has already swept the mass media.
I love how you critically evaluated this whole situation. Soo much respect.
Academic Shots Fired!
What an intense day in the world of ancient religious studies
I visited Greece on a study tour through my college a few years ago and I remember being quite excited to learn about Delphi, and your breakdown of the scholarship regarding our understanding of the trance state was highly informative and backs up what I recall our professor discussing about the speculation and how we don't know for sure. It truly is a beautiful site and was quite a climb to get there. Looking forward to exploring more of your channel.
I may have said this before, but I love that your introductions actually have a purpose beyond padding the video and begging for money
About the practising good scholarship: I fully agree. The downside is, that when you are not very active in the field, it has hard to keep up with the recent articles. It is nice to have channels as this one, that keep us up to date with more recent articles. So good work and keep it up.
Nice discussion. I do suspect the gases had *some* effect (oxygen deprivation, CO2, Carbon monoxide toxicity). Chewing on plant leaves does raise a reasonable suspicion of hallucinogenic effects. A whole "cocktail" of influences may well have been developed over the many years of operation. This might include music, incense, chanting, maybe rhythmic dance. The whole process may have been as much to impress the pilgrims as induce a trance state.
Dr. Gregory S. Aldrete is my favorite lecturer from The Great Sources/Wondrium! His different lecture series cover all the greatest hits of the ancient Mediterranean world and as Lindybeige once said "Wow, does that man have SHOULDERS!"
I have been to Delphoi in 2006 or 2007. Could not find the pythia and had no visions of my own even afrer a day of hiking in Apollo’s sacred forest and taking a bath in the cold springs of Aphrodite.
Magnificent place. You don’t need to be high to have visions and spew prophecies. They might have been able to smell some gases in the onphalon, but their belief that the gas gave them visions was probably the strongest force. Giving naturalistic explanations to religious experiences is a good first step, but as an absolute layperson it seems to me that scholars often forget about the power of the human psyche even if you look at relatively simple phenomenon like the placebo effect. If the pythia was raised from childhood in the belief that she can see the future as a part of this ritual, and their environment would constantly validate this belief then you’d be hard pressed to find a priestess who would simply come forward and say “nope it’s all fake, the only thing you can smell is our sweat and farts.”
I visited Delphi many years ago and I had the most strange experience. I was walking with my brother and a group of people just where the oracle use to sit to receive messages. Suddenly I could hear like a numbing sound coming from the mountains. Then I start feeling like a subtle vibration in my legs coming from the ground. After a while I could feel through my whole body. I looked around and found out that I was not the only one having this experience. Till today I never had an explanation of what that was.
It's basically on top of fault lines, likely a small earthquake. I'm sorry that the explanation I offer is so mundane.
@@freewilly1193earthquakes don't tend to be audible, but it's probably related
Go to Delphi. Then tell me that nothing mystical is going on there. I’ve been there. The Earth didn’t shake that day but it was definitely a holy place.
This channel is criminally underrated.
This is fascinating! I actualy went to greece and visited delphi and it is really amazing in person.
I remember my first year classics lecturer being very sceptical of the gas theory. It was apparently his thing, whenever discussion of the oracle at delphi came up, that he would go on about the earthly vapors, and not trusting the opinions of every dead philosopher.
15:15 Isn't that just going to the other extreme though? I agree an 800 years gas leak is unrealistic, but that wouldn't be necessary for the whole duration. Once the place becomes famous for divination and the temple is already built, economic and cultural pressure would keep the show running long after any supposed magic fumes have ran out.
That's more speculation than what you're accusing the author of.
19:50 Ok now I need a video on glossolalia. I'm so fascinated by Pentecostalism. I knew a lot of pentecostals growing up and I always wanted to go to my friends church cause it sounded really fun but my Baptist parents wouldn't let me.
I've always been super interested in these theories since my first time hearing about them. Great video!
Fantastic job expanding on a very interesting subject in a clear and straightforward way. While I hadn't formed a definitive view on the subject of ethylene, I wasn't at all aware of the compounding arguments against it. You have a remarkable scientific integrity, which I admire very much.
My own very much non scholarly theory would be that it probably was several different forces at work. The Oracle itself would have had an interest in perpetuating the legend, so it might have been anything from a cynical act to genuine drug induced trance, and it could have changed over time and/or just periodically. Maybe once a period of volcanic activity (or some other circumstance) caused a proro-oracle to get visions at that location, and later generations just built on that with whatever means they found to keep going.
Our Australian equivalent would be Nimbin. When you walk through this town you hear women’s voices whisper “want a cookie?”. So I bought a couple - boy did I see the future, past, sounds & a kangaroo that did a crazy wrap. Recommended 🖖🏼🌈
You Australians are so nutty
Thank you for making this video, it is crazy to think about the times I've just spouted this "fact" uncritically. Keep up the great work.
I went into this with the same assumption and I’m glad you laid out the argument in favor in full faith and then also laid out the counter. Very good work!
Years ago I visited Delpi early in the morning and had the whole place to myself. I was surprised to find such a complete stadium at the top of the hill.
I found the ethylene gas hypotheses very compelling when it was first posited. Was unaware of push back from other experts and scholars. Thanks for disabusing me of this theory.
I absolutely LOVE watching your videos. They are always so fair and balanced. Such a delight to watch. Thank you.
I love how balanced and critical (in the good, scholarly way) your videos always are. Thank you for another interesting one :)
22:18 The hermit's place that's "filled with a sweetest perfume breathing from his mouth" when he speaks (Plutarch, de defectu oraculorum, par 21) is arguably just an ironic euphemism for "bad breath" (dental hygiene might not have been as advanced then as it is today) considering Plutarch's text is about "The Failure of Oracles". But that is no basis to conclude that Plutarch's information on the Delphi oracle would be wrong. Ancient writers weren't necessarily bad observers. E.g., Pliny the Younger's description of a pyroclastic flow to have occurred at the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79 AD was considered an impossible thing to happen until we witnessed it being possible during the eruption of Mount St. Helens in 1980....
Plutarch was highly-educated, a member of the Delphic Priesthood and an accomplished writer. He gave us a very detailed description of the Oracle and I see no reason to doubt his eyewitness account.
The picture you/your editor chose to represent a possessed goat was a fantastic choice.
I’ve always been curious if it was a gas but not natural. For instance a room or crevasse below the oracles room that temple priestesses would lite coals and add frankincense and other herbs ontop, with one of the herbs being psychoactive
Really interesting.
I have an oblique question. How did the prestige of the Delphic oracle change the cult of Apollo?
I have a sneaky suspicion that he used to be both smaller and scarier, but that the priesthood of Delphi managed a pretty big reimagining and pr overhaul. Probably not enough evidence left to make that case though…
it's easy to start, though! What about this smaller, fringier Apollo?
16:05 I love how you start changing your tone to be slightly angrier, whether intentionally or not it added some nice flavour
Literally just visited Delphi the other day, perfect timing!
Wow, so glad to have seen this video as I was not aware of the follow up research papers. Thank you for bringing these to light for me....
I think im gonna listen every video in this channel, not because of its content but for his voice 🌝
Athletes also trained near by and stayed in dorms just down the road from Delphi. You can still see the baths and training facility.
23:25 On your question why the gases affected only the oracle priestess: possible answers can range from ritual use of stimulants (like inhaling the concentrated gases directly from the Omphalos without poisoning the whole room) to ritual context (e.g. the effect of fasting or special diet before the priestess commenced the ritual - in early times once a year, later once a month from Spring to Autumn).
Thanks for doing this video. I had no idea there were any arguments against this conclusion.
Thank you for this video. There have been a couple of recent TV programs that came to the conclusion that it was the effect of the fumes and presented that as fact. I don't know what the explanation might be, but it's good to know there is still room for investigation.
I almost spit out my coffee when that photo of the goat appeared on screen!
Ooo, I just assigned some of those passages from the Iliad in my English class. I'mma snag this video. Thanks for the lesson plan assist 🙏😊🙏
OMG that model you use to illustrate the procession looks exactly like the in game map of Delphi in the game Titan Quest. So cool that the Greeks tried to model their temple after a game like that.
amateur chemist here. The room could fill with CO2 easily if it was below the entrance. edit: or even had curtains drapped at the entrance, like how walk in freezers keep cold air in with plastic. carbon dioxide is heavier than the air and will pool like water but it is not a drowsiness you can speak coherently. nitrous oxide would be my bet though, N2O. it is much denser than air and it gives a sweet oder and has an effect that wears off really fast. that might explain why the oracle sat up high in the room while the person entering would be lower. they would feel the effect more intensely and she would be able to keep a relatively clear head. the most telling thing imo is that they only held prophesy 9 times a year. if there was no one walking in and out of the temple during that time, disturbing the air, it would collect much faster. idk, i don't know the architecture or the bts ritual practice. i know nothing about geology but a thousand or two years (I assume) could change how much gas gets produced. this is not to say these points are slam dunks but like... come on. go there and put a plastic bag over a spout for a month and see how much and which gas you collect.
Did not the descriptions of the inner chamber describe it as a cave like room below?
OMG I was not expecting to see you cite Dr. Lehoux! I'm in the Classics Master's Program at Queens University and while I haven't had any classes with him, nor is he my supervisor, I've talked with him a few times (It's a small department).
hey sir im pumped to watch this vid, right up my alley, but i first need to thank you for your channel name as it pulled me out of Phone Mode and made me realize i need breakfast. very excited to have a side of religion with it
Thank you so much for your good scholarship and analysis. I especially appreciate that you put the studies on screen!
Thanks! The moral of today's story - "Practice good scholarship" is really a very important thing.
Great video! I would just like to add about the plant Pythia is supposed to chew, we call it Dafne, it is used for food but if you use too much you get dizzy when you eat. Also the other plant you showed, we call that bitter-Dafne, is known to be toxic but not in a fun "put you in a trance" way. Another thing, I would like to suggest it may have been a combination of many factors as we see in many cultures where the shaman is a specific person, and they may combine psychoactive with specific rituals and routines and only then they can get the spiritual experience. Lastly, it is important to remember that in ancient Greece the specifics of the "mysteries", or the practices of the different temples, where not supposed to be shared openly but rather cloaked with codespeak and symbolisms that only specific people would understand.
Again thanks for the great video.
Fantastic work! I was also coming here expecting to hear about that one article from twenty years ago and how cool it was that the oracle breathed vapors. I don't know these other scholars, but I have always enjoyed Hall's work.
John R Hale from U of Louisville worked with a geologist and his study supports the fissures and ethylene gas theory. He has a detailed lecture available on TH-cam.
I really admire you and your passion for understanding the multiple belief systems humanity has conjured up. I truly respect the contributions to my historical knowledge. I had the opportunity to visit Delphi back in the 1970's and have always been fascinated by the Greek contributions to our modern world, in the west. I do think, however, that the Asian side of humanity doesn't get the same credit and understanding that we have for the Western 'paradigms'
It is entirely possible that Plutarch and Paul were referring to the song Pneuma by Tool as the divine substance. The song, given its awesomeness, can easily explain the sensation experienced by the oracle and those who visited her. The song was played by the oracle for herself and her visitors, and it made them go into a headbanging frenzy. The same happened to Paul when he later streamed the song. I don't understand why no one else has thought about this before. Some might say that this would require time travel. And, indeed, the song transcends space and time.
Great video. And yes totally agree with you that intoxication hypothesis is not needed and is just wrong according to how many Greeks understand how oracles were done. You are right to approach it as a combination of elements.
Thank you for discussing the different scholarly theories and going through liberalism. Not only are you teaching us about this particular topic but also encouraging critical thinking.
Great video, I too was under the impression that the 2000 study was the authority on the subject. I tend to think they knew the “narcotic trance” theory was an immensely attractive, and more importantly commercially viable, story. Hence the amount of books that include it in their accounts and investigations of “alt-history”, which sells very, VERY, well.
I like what you said about speaking in tongues.
Professor Elizabeth Vandiver was really the best teacher at The great courses it is so sad we can't have more of her courses in there or anywhere online.
Hi! Thanks for this! FYI the MGrieves Modern Herbal originally published in 1931, describes Laurus Nobilis as having an excitant and narcotic property. Also Diaphoretic. In the section describing it's Medicinal Actions and uses. Also mentions that Deplhic priestessess made use of the leaves.
Excellent video! I love your channel so much! I’m currently writing a fantasy/historical fiction novel involving the Oracle of Delphi and this is a magnificent source!!
So I guess a really great thing to come from these questions, is harder scrutiny of the facts... but without the consequence of virality
I really, really love this video.
If you ran for president, I would vote for you. I’ve been watching your videos for a bit now and I am more and more impressed with each one. Thank you
Well done, sir. I like very much that you took the time and effort to research topics such as chemistry and tectonics that are well outside your usual boundaries. Additionally, you provided cogent and persuasive arguments for how a better understanding of cultural context could improve research quality in more technical domains. You are a good model for all researchers.
“For the goats began to act like beings possessed” may or may not be the best quote ever
Honestly, aren't goats always possessed? These creatures make me wonder what is going on inside them.
Maybe some vague connection to the god Pan? Where his legend began?
Btw this story of one article shaping the social concept of things reminds me about the story of an article that suggested Marco Polo had never went to china. It is not widely known these days as some historians (who hold Marco Polo deep in their hearts) made a serious debunking campaign against it showing how many of the arguments were just… false.
I think this shows up the other part of our human nature - we tend to love have extremely precise, scientific explanations and we find it hard to believe that things might’ve been more straightforward. (The other part is the one making us believe in ghosts trying to kill us just because the knife fell on the floor)
I agree about the importance of scholarship and a critical attitude. As a clinician trained in both meditation and hypnosis, I know that it is possible to enter into trance by non-pharmacologic means. Trance is important to mantic function, but not necessary, so I think the case of how the Pythia worked is open but explainable by known means.
You got the attention of my wandering mind. For some reason I thought I saw you do a video as a classical guitarist?
Fascinating video. I always wondered how solid this theory was...Thank you for clearing up so many things!
I've just had breakfast but I still have room for this dessert~
It will probably be a highly debated point
Many cultures in history have used mediums such as herbs, or teas, etc,. To induce a state in which you can "fully hear"
I'm a reformist myself but I can appreciate another's cultural histories
🌹🍃Fantastic presentation. Anyone who comes across this work is far more educated for you having gone the extra mile. Thank you! 🌹🍃
The Nechung State Oracle of Tibet comes to mind. Similar technique and interpretation practice. There may be entheogens involved (dutsi), but more than anything, the Nechung is highly trained in the oracular technique. The monastic embodying the Oracle has some interesting explanations of this.
I believe something similar happened to Mohammed when he wrote the Quran. He too spent his time in a cave meditating. And he came up with some wild crazy rules.
This kind of makes me wonder about the ancient Egyptian site of Hermopolis, the cult center of the god Thoth, because Thoth was, according to Egyptian mythology, the inventor of opium. I wonder if Hermopolis has any remaining evidence of opium use as part of a cult of Thoth. It would be an interesting find I think.
Excellent video. Very interesting.
Great content, and very nice extra lesson in the end.
Yet ANOTHER TH-cam channel that should be on more major platforms, to combat the rampant misinformation and ignorance in the world
Thank you so much for making this video! I had heard about this theory and was wondering how plausible it really was.
A video on speaking in tongues would be cool
you re channel is amazing!!!!
You got me hooked at "intoxicated goats".
I really dislike the hypothesis that mystical experiences are primarily due to hallucinogenic drugs or mental illness. Not only does this discount the accounts of sober and sane individuals, it also discounts the accounts of intoxicated and mentally ill people. Mentally ill people can be credible witnesses occasionally and mentally well people can be unreliable witnesses.
I actually see the mental illness angle as potentially more validating in some circumstances. If shamans, oracles, sages, gurus, or prophets were neurodiverse, then that means societies existed where having a mind that works differently was valued and rewarded instead of ostracized. I see that as a model that society can potentially build on. I would love to get high and give people cryptic autistic advice instead of trying to contort myself into fitting the right mold for a regular job.
Yes!! Omg!! Exactly this.
A worldwide study mentioned that a blind person has never been diagnosed with Schizophrenia.
Your research is outstanding.
That was an excellent and balanced presentation,thankyou