So you asked for some clearance on a few things so ill do my best to explain how I understand the desing philosophy (Im no pro, but I hit tekken emperor a few weeks ago so I have a basic grasp of jun) - 1,1 is basically an altered version of the old 1,1 whiplash combos that now only asuka has. It is used as a safe check button since you can block, while also being able to threaten an izumo stance mix if they arent challenging you. Its also used when they low parry your 1,3 as a mid mix. As for why it heals, I got no idea lol, maybe they just wanted all of the izu entrances to heal. - ss2 is used for healing combos now. The combo is df2, magic 4, f3 ss2, f3+4 GEN 4, f3,2 IZU 1+2, previously it was used as a non kazama power route but now its a healing route. - izu stance was indeed dumbed down but this is Tekken 8 design philosophy as a whole, the devs to streamline a lot of things. - df3 is quite dumb yea lol. Jun may have the best homings as a whole package in this game. - she never had a hell sweep from neutral stance, her hell sweep was in fact IZU exclusive in TAG 2 and was 27 frames startup, (its 21 frames now) which was pretty trash. In terms of giving her good lows I really dont think its a good idea. This is a character that has so many strong mids, df21+2, f21+2, d1+2, uf2, ss4, ff1+2, df3 etc. Its a weakness I feel like they should keep or else we may just have another Jin or Drag in our hands. For me id say giving her another low poke like lilis d1,2 would be cool but nothing more beyond that. She can already nuke your health bar much like bryan with her top 5 wall damage hop kick at the wall and counter hit launchers, I dont think giving her bigger lows would help in the less braindead aspect
IMO I think some changes I would give her would be to: -Nerf DF3. This is a really loaded homing move. No wallsplat. -Nerf DF2,1 and F2,1. I would be in favor of getting rid of the safety options for both instead of stuff you can just throw out. - Make DB2 do a bit more. Have it do a bit more damage maybe, or give it +3. - As you say, flesh out Miare stance a bit more. Its a weird stance with two options and serves only interact with F1+2 or some combos. - Give some of her old transitions back. B2,1 into SS (without needing to go into Miare) B2,1 into Izumo as well. - Make 1,2 go into GEN again. This was fun in TTT2 to force the mixup on hit. - Give Izumo an option to extend pressure. Like a linear or slower + frame mid option, or some further string to transition into other stuff. What I dont like about Izumo is how meh the options are outside of combos. Like Miare, I dont like stances that are just for combos, and would l like to see more expression in these to make her more interesting. Thats just some stuff I think might help.
It just sounds to me like you need to play more Jun, the core of this character still feel the same to me. Her healing and grey life mechanics are definitely questionable, but I play her the same way I've always played her and am having a good time. I sometimes complain about her not having good lows but I honestly think she is strong enough as is. Once the current top tiers are properly balanced I'm sure we'll see the gameplay of Jun and many other characters evolve on a wider scale. Brain dead gameplay is just too rewarding right now.
No good lows? She has some of the best low pokes in the game. db3 and d4 are incredible. Not to mention she has a great counter hit low launcher in can cans.
@@curtisedmonds9933 The damage off d4 and db3 is so little that my opponents don't mind eating 6 of them while they scout for a hop kick or low parry. While other characters have lows to watch out for, Juns lows are just there to be annoying. Wild can cans are probably useful against the uninitiated, but once people adapt counter hits without setup will become rare occurrences. I don't rely on can can myself, so if you don't mind, would elaborate on why you think CH can can is = to having a strong neutral low?
@@ThaRawDeal That's her gameplan. She's a midrange, poke style character who relies on frame traps and whiff punishing for her big damage. She also has fc1 I think it is that is also a CH launcher. and a hellsweep, and 1+4. Tekken is (until 8 anyway) not a game primarily about what does the biggest damage at all times, it's about fundamentals and strong neutral game focused on movement. This is part of what makes Jun's lows so good.
@@curtisedmonds9933 Knowing how to use a move does not mean the move is inherently strong. I'm not saying Jun needs a big low like Dragunov, but let's not pretend like anyone is afraid her nipping at their ankles. FC df2 has also been nerfed with additional damage scaling in the last patch. I would say revert that nerf and she is strong enough to compete with in TEKKEN 8.
i really miss her back 2 4 3 she had in tekken tag 2. i miss the close up low mid mix up. now df 4 has no follow up mixup. its all lows. which makes it a useless string at high level cause it will always be parried. she needs a 15 frame launcher and her main armor move is absolute ass.
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So you asked for some clearance on a few things so ill do my best to explain how I understand the desing philosophy (Im no pro, but I hit tekken emperor a few weeks ago so I have a basic grasp of jun)
- 1,1 is basically an altered version of the old 1,1 whiplash combos that now only asuka has. It is used as a safe check button since you can block, while also being able to threaten an izumo stance mix if they arent challenging you. Its also used when they low parry your 1,3 as a mid mix. As for why it heals, I got no idea lol, maybe they just wanted all of the izu entrances to heal.
- ss2 is used for healing combos now. The combo is df2, magic 4, f3 ss2, f3+4 GEN 4, f3,2 IZU 1+2, previously it was used as a non kazama power route but now its a healing route.
- izu stance was indeed dumbed down but this is Tekken 8 design philosophy as a whole, the devs to streamline a lot of things.
- df3 is quite dumb yea lol. Jun may have the best homings as a whole package in this game.
- she never had a hell sweep from neutral stance, her hell sweep was in fact IZU exclusive in TAG 2 and was 27 frames startup, (its 21 frames now) which was pretty trash.
In terms of giving her good lows I really dont think its a good idea. This is a character that has so many strong mids, df21+2, f21+2, d1+2, uf2, ss4, ff1+2, df3 etc. Its a weakness I feel like they should keep or else we may just have another Jin or Drag in our hands. For me id say giving her another low poke like lilis d1,2 would be cool but nothing more beyond that. She can already nuke your health bar much like bryan with her top 5 wall damage hop kick at the wall and counter hit launchers, I dont think giving her bigger lows would help in the less braindead aspect
IMO I think some changes I would give her would be to:
-Nerf DF3. This is a really loaded homing move. No wallsplat.
-Nerf DF2,1 and F2,1. I would be in favor of getting rid of the safety options for both instead of stuff you can just throw out.
- Make DB2 do a bit more. Have it do a bit more damage maybe, or give it +3.
- As you say, flesh out Miare stance a bit more. Its a weird stance with two options and serves only interact with F1+2 or some combos.
- Give some of her old transitions back. B2,1 into SS (without needing to go into Miare) B2,1 into Izumo as well.
- Make 1,2 go into GEN again. This was fun in TTT2 to force the mixup on hit.
- Give Izumo an option to extend pressure. Like a linear or slower + frame mid option, or some further string to transition into other stuff. What I dont like about Izumo is how meh the options are outside of combos. Like Miare, I dont like stances that are just for combos, and would l like to see more expression in these to make her more interesting.
Thats just some stuff I think might help.
1,1 is so you have a mid transition to Izumo. All other transitions can be launched punished
It just sounds to me like you need to play more Jun, the core of this character still feel the same to me. Her healing and grey life mechanics are definitely questionable, but I play her the same way I've always played her and am having a good time. I sometimes complain about her not having good lows but I honestly think she is strong enough as is. Once the current top tiers are properly balanced I'm sure we'll see the gameplay of Jun and many other characters evolve on a wider scale. Brain dead gameplay is just too rewarding right now.
No good lows? She has some of the best low pokes in the game. db3 and d4 are incredible. Not to mention she has a great counter hit low launcher in can cans.
@@curtisedmonds9933 The damage off d4 and db3 is so little that my opponents don't mind eating 6 of them while they scout for a hop kick or low parry. While other characters have lows to watch out for, Juns lows are just there to be annoying. Wild can cans are probably useful against the uninitiated, but once people adapt counter hits without setup will become rare occurrences. I don't rely on can can myself, so if you don't mind, would elaborate on why you think CH can can is = to having a strong neutral low?
@@ThaRawDeal That's her gameplan. She's a midrange, poke style character who relies on frame traps and whiff punishing for her big damage. She also has fc1 I think it is that is also a CH launcher. and a hellsweep, and 1+4. Tekken is (until 8 anyway) not a game primarily about what does the biggest damage at all times, it's about fundamentals and strong neutral game focused on movement. This is part of what makes Jun's lows so good.
@@curtisedmonds9933 Knowing how to use a move does not mean the move is inherently strong. I'm not saying Jun needs a big low like Dragunov, but let's not pretend like anyone is afraid her nipping at their ankles. FC df2 has also been nerfed with additional damage scaling in the last patch. I would say revert that nerf and she is strong enough to compete with in TEKKEN 8.
@@ThaRawDeal both db3 and d4 are fast, and have deceptively good range. That is what makes them strong. They are lynch pins of Jun's kit.
i really miss her back 2 4 3 she had in tekken tag 2. i miss the close up low mid mix up. now df 4 has no follow up mixup. its all lows. which makes it a useless string at high level cause it will always be parried. she needs a 15 frame launcher and her main armor move is absolute ass.