"It is said he returned to his first master to learn how he may best leave the order." *"J e E e E e D d I i I i ! ! ! !"* "...I do not recall who Revans master was." LOL
Three years later and people still try to act like there is some debate over whether or not there is debate over whether or not Kreia & Kae are the same person.
Kreia Is A Jedi Who Knows A Lot! She Was Cast Out For Something She Didn’t Do! (Neutral) Atris Is Nothing! She Casts Blame When She Should Take Responsibility! (Dark) Vash Is A True Jedi Who Is Very Kind! (Very Light) Kavar Is A Badaß War Veteran! He Has His Eyes Open! (Very Light, Later Neutral) Vrook Is A Gigantic Aß Who Deserves Any Bad Things That Happen To Him! (Light, Later Dark) Zez-Kai Ell Is A Jedi Who Has His Eyes Open, Unlike Vrook Lamar Who Can’t Even Open His Eyes! (Very Light, Later Neutral)
I guess Im asking randomly but does anybody know of a method to log back into an Instagram account?? I stupidly forgot my login password. I appreciate any help you can offer me.
There is an interesting bit of meta that makes two of the most...divisive characters in the KOTOR games utterly brilliant. When I ran a male Exile, and assumed an LSF Revan, I saw Disciple was reporting directly to Carth. Now, Carth wouldn't send just anyone on hunting down the Ebon Hawk. No, he would only someone he *trusted completely* with a job like that. And we all know how hard it is to earn that fellow's trust...Telos is where the Jedi were dumping washouts like Mical. Run the numbers, and it's likely he was heading to Telos just as Karath was leaving. So, it's likely Carth and Mical were tight even before KOTOR1. Meaning, Carth is probably the reason Mical starts as Soldier class, and Mical is the reason Carth was right to suspect the Jedi were pulling something during the Star Forge hunt.
That would make sense, if it wasn't for one thing. The Jedi send the people who fail the Jedi trials to places like Telos to serve the populace. But Mical never got that far. There wasn't anyone left to apprentice him, and he was doubting the Jedi ways after Meetra Surik was exiled. He never got the chance to fail. So the Jedi couldn't have sent him to Telos. But he did join the Republic afterwards.
@@PapitoQinn I'll admit that I couldn't shake the idea that the two crossed paths when Telos was razed, with the Service Corps ship Mical was on being one of the first responders to the aftermath. The timeline kinda adds up. Mical is 25 in K2, so he would have been about 15 at the time of Telos's destruction, which is about the age the Jedi either select a youngling for Padawan status or dump them somewhere like Telos. No one selected him, so he was lumped in with the ones who failed. Carth's a nice guy (higher on the karma mater than the party's Jedi!), and smart enough to figure that the Jedi's stupidity in throwing away a fellow like Mical would be the Republic's gain.
This is what I find so interesting about Star Wars; the ignorance of commoners about the Force and the orders that use it. Most people in Star Wars probably see the Jedi as a mysterious cult which can't be trusted. Most people don't even know the Sith exist, as Mical says in this video. I'd like to see a show some time about a commoner investigating the mysteries of the Jedi-and especially the Sith-to figure out what they really are.
This outside perspective should certainly be shown more. It seems that when a Jedi or Sith gains the force, they forget what it was like before the force was revealed to them and explained. Much as we can forget how we were as children when we grow up.
@@lordofcreativity9637 This is all the more case when you recall that the old Jedi Order took Force sensitive babies away from their families, so they don't even know about life without the Force since they were raised from near birth
TLJ was a hollow shadow of this. An attempt to rip off the depth of Kreia but with no basis. Rian Johnson was too arrogant to see that he could not write the struggle of the Force properly; as a result his end product was just a shallow recreation at best.
@@liaml.e.5964 Well, you are not wrong, but you must consider that a movie is roughly around 2 hours long while this game, its dialogues and different philosophies are explained in depth for much more than just those two hours. Plus TLJ had a plot to fill (whether they accomplished that or not I do not want to discuss) and so they couldn't just fill the film with philosophies. They had to shorten it. And KOTOR2 is a masterpiece. It's very difficult to best that.
@@friedibarti8070 And yet somehow Return of the Jedi managed to do just that, with both Obi-Wan and Yoda chiding Luke's foolishness in confronting Vader, and Vader himself questioning Luke's motives and abilities, and the Emperor toying with Luke's emotions, and yet Luke acted as a deconstructive (but not destructive) antithesis of the dogmatism of the extinct Jedi Order. In around 2 hours, the film delivered a surprisingly deep examination of the dichotomy of passion vs. serenity in the aspect of using (or being used by) the Force. Not to the same level as KOTOR 2, of course, but definitely more than The Last Jedi which was too focused on "subverting expectations" to say much besides denying the entire concept in a very basic and nihilistic way.
@@roadent217 Thats the funniest aspect of the new trilogy. They were trying to be more "morally grey" than the originals, which they saw as very "goodies vs baddies", but they just ended up going over the same subject matter as the originals anyway. With worse writing and a worse cast. I'd never considered this detail you're hitting, though. Because they told him to stay in Empire also, but it was that confrontation, and ultimately his almost suicidal loyalty to his friends (/sister) that allows him to win in the end anyway. He won thanks to ignoring half of what Yoda and Obi Wan were telling him. So why he would start training new students according to the old ways, then lose faith in the old ways, when he didn't even have faith in them the first time, is baffling. I think they just forgot. Or didn't pay attention. Gets even weirder when its Luke who is upset over the destruction of the "Jedi texts" and Yoda who doesn't care about them. Considering its obviously Yoda who follows them and not Luke. Jesus, my head hurts.
1:54 "There is no blame, all must accept." This is a mindset that one should cultivate. Not that one should completely suspend judgement, that is a vicious evil of its own. But to temporarily suspend judgement, to turn off your emotions of rage, indignation, fear, or mistrust, to look at others and their actions in the most detached manner possible. Only then, through thoughts unguarded by your base resentments and biases, can you truly judge something for yourself. And then, of course, once you have made these judgements, it will lead to new, more informed biases that will let you navigate the world with greater accuracy.
I think another important factor to why it was called "The Jedi Civil War" was the fact that Darth Revan, Darth Malak, and the majority of the so-called Sith were once Jedi. They went rogue from the Jedi Order and entered the Mandalorian Wars, then they returned from the Unknown Regions as an empire declaring war on the Republic and Jedi Order, and they went out of their way to turn more Jedi into Sith. To the average person who doesn't know what really separates Jedi and Sith, this would seem less of a conflict between two completely separate Orders and more of a single Order being split
It beautifully echo's the force wars, the very first schism of the order in its prototype state, because without the Jedi there never would have been the Sith, practice of both currents in the force was considered a normality back then, the practice of Ashla and Bogan upon their namesake moons. until the Jedi saw how far one could change, perhaps some would consider, evolve.. through use of the bogan. it brought them unease and fear, until it eventually gave way to a civil war, of calcified beliefs and practices. with those who sided upon the teachings of bogan defeated..made into leaving the order forever. exiled. in their hearts they never forgave the jedi, and their hatred for the jedi burns within in their teachings still like a fire. whilst this is of course of the greatest importance and relevance to those who are connected to the force and part of either perspective, the galaxy around them can see no difference, no contrast. only men and women, or creatures of power, that have gone mad by using it. made tyrants and sorcerer kings because of it. wether it is they crusade for the greater good of "peace" in robes of white or absolute dominion through "power" in robes of black. to the outsider, the rest of the wider galaxy? to them, it is a horror show.
Indeed, to those who do not know better the Jedi and the Sith are simply two parts of the entire group. It is helped by the fact that the Sith originally came from the Jedi. Often the strongest or most prominent of the sith are those who were once Jedi and left the order. In the end to the rest of the galaxy the battle of Jedi and Sith is merely a battle between different sections of the same sect who have different views and drag everyone else into their personal conflicts. It is no wonder there are those who do not trust the Jedi when they cannot see how they and their enemies are truly any different and see it as one order with different perspectives ultimately bringing others into their personal conflict. The Jedi seem blind to this because they do not understand the perspectives of those who do not use the force, who do not see things as they do.
@@lordofcreativity9637 This is analysis of powerful Sith once being Jedi is all the stronger when you recall that the stage for the Mandalorian Wars was set by the fallen Jedi - Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma, both of whom were drawn to the Darkside by another fallen Jedi - Freedon Nadd.
Jolee Bindo was on the right track too. He said that the Jedi order should teach to guard against passion, not act like you're above it. You can see that here: th-cam.com/video/nvQcB3Fazbs/w-d-xo.html . Denying your humanity will just lead to disaster once your humanity is forced out.
You can't trully have balance in this context of the force. The force splits the galaxy into two versions, one light one dark. Every action you take within the universe has an outcome either good or evil. You would technically only choose one of the two or like the jedi, remain passive and uninvolved. This is why yoda states a jedi never lives for adventure, the jedi doesn't desire such things. When you make choices typically they are lightside choices. You would choose either light or dark, there is no in between choice. If you ever play kotor you realize the choices and alignment and so on. If you never played, this concept may be oblivious to you and thus ultimately believing in this balance philosophy. The jedi technically remain in balance as long as they are passive and at peace or whatever. "grey jedi" this is a generic term to describe a jedi outcast, it's not as if it's an ideology or an order. Kreia wanted to bring about the death of the force, this by no means is an indication of any kind of balance though.
The Jedi deny the evil tendencies of our nature, but not our nature wholesale. Common misunderstanding, the idea of " balance" is like trying to balance mercy with genocide.
The Light IS the balance, the mercy, is the harmony, to say otherwise is ridiculous, and to attempt to stay in between good and evil is nothing more than arrogance. One that stays on the fence is merely cold and apathetic, and if that is the case, then the "grey", is merely a oppressive darthness that veils itself in feined moral superiority to the light.
Thomas Dobbs who are you to decide what is right or wrong. What makes you think there is only one way. The jedi were more apathetic when they did not want to intervene in the mandalorion wars and Revan could not take that. Passiveness makes you weak, prey for the predators and psychotics. Engaging in aggressiveness makes you a psychotic. Assertiveness is the grey zone in all of that. Its the most sensible way to live. To be in tune with reality. You say grey people are arrogant yet the jedi condemned Revan for waging war in order to save others. So you're wrong about that.
What is the true battle, to defeat an ideal by bringing violence upon all who practice it? Or to immerse yourself in it without succumbing? Those who cannot bring an alternative to an ideal are in no position to fight against it, let alone prevail. If you find yourself against an ideal, remind yourself that you not only defeat an enemy, but also gain an ally, should you triumph without bloodshed. For victory is realized when the falsehood, the pitfalls and the weakness of ideal is revealed. In short, Victory requires truth.
@@garrisonjones1827 What are they an enemy of? Are they an enemy of an idea? Then fear not, without truth, they cannot win. If they attempt to silence you, they show the world that they are afraid of what you have to say. Are they the enemy of persons? Where they care not for any ideal but to inflict suffering and death only? Then they are not a rational creature but a beast that is intent only on its urges, and should be dealt like beasts. In truth, your enemies are rarely one or the other, but often a mixture of both. Some who object to your ideal may harbour a selfish hatred against you as a person. Some who seem to only want to harm you, may instead bear hatred for the ideal you represent instead. Talk to them, reach them, finding out what drives your enemies is just as important as defeating them. Because sometimes you find your enemies are in fact misunderstood comrades, and vice versa. When speaking with your enemies, or anyone who does not believe as you do. Do not be afraid. Be open to their ideals but remember your own. You have nothing to lose, as you will either emerge victorious and have sharpened your ideal against contrary notions, or you will learn from your enemies as to the weakness of your ideal and evolved the way you see things. To believe in an ideal is to be willing to betray it. To have the faith that if any ideal is worthy to be a truth, then it shall remain standing when you depart from it, as you will inevitably find your way back to it. Otherwise, you have merely falsified a fake truth, and you will have learned, and lost nothing.
Exar Kun was arrogant and power hungry from the very beginning, and Vodo knew it. He saw a piece of darkness that absorbed the light. But his fault was in denying the studying of the dark side for Exar, for when he left to reach it himself, Freedon Nadd closed his way back to the light. The less you know about the dark side, the more you covet it. And the more it absorbs you.
Partially true, but like the most addictive drug; the Dark Side can and has simply twisted people to become monstrous Sith when they delve into it. Frankly, only the most disciplined of Force Users can use the Dark Side correctly, so it makes sense why the Jedi would be wary of letting anyone interested in it delve into it. It's a VERY slippery slope that only a few in the EU has managed.
@@stephenjenkins7971 Even so, those who say that no one can turn away from the dark side is hopeless. Only those who truly revel in destruction cannot turn away. But Vader wasn't the only example of those who turned away from it. Anakin only turned to protect those he loved; Padme, Ashoka, and Obi Wan, until he thought the latter betrayed him, and it was his son who convinced him to be the hero. Yuthura Ban only turned to the Dark Side to save her friends, Mekel joins up with you if you let Jorak torture you, and even Ajunta Pall returns to the light posthumously after his ghost expresses regret.
Fundamental flaw is correct. Mical seems to illustrate a pattern among powerful force users like Exar Kun, Ulic Qel Droma and Revan and Malak and their Jedi Masters inability to try to manuever them away from the Dark side or even outright stop them and not notice the pattern through history. Something Luke's New Jedi Order tried to remedy.
The Jedi almost like to pretend as if the dark side doesn't exist. They keep their students so isolated from it that once they come into contact with it, they don't know how to deal with it.
Indeed, the Old Jedi order was of the philosophy that those who fell to the dark side were beyond redemption, which I find interesting as if someone is able to fall to the dark side why is bringing someone back to the light so difficult? One could chock it up to the difficulty of trying to do so and perhaps from a public standpoint that a person that causes such destruction is beyond redemption such as Exar Kun, but I think it was easier for the Jedi Order to look outward rather then inward at any fundamental flaws or practices that would encourage dark side users to rise up out of any numerous reasons, not just even impatience or jealousy, but the psychological outcomes of being inducted since childbirth, never knowing their families or attachment, lack of understanding of the emotional needs of human or even species nature is something that makes me surprised the Order has lasted as long as it has.
Indeed, it seems that the Jedi fail to learn from history and so they end up repeating it. It seems that they prefer to avoid the problem of the dark side except to say that it is forbidden and bad which in my eyes only ends up making it more enticing especially in times where they are desperate. Avoiding the problem means that they are ill-equipped for when they encounter it and so they fall and their fellows choose to cut them loose rather than use it as introspective or self-reflection. I think they are blind to their flaws partly because they don't want to see it.
I'll be honest, when I first played this game back when I was ~12 I hated the disciple. After several years and many playthroughs I gradually started to like him. Now I think he's one of the more interesting characters in the game, about on par with Atton.
Thanks. Anything discussing philosophy, politics, religion, stories, or lore. I try to focus on those, yes. But I'm not above uploading other stuff I want to preserve. Also if you see any completely unrelated or uninteresting stuff being published, that's probably me trying to clear up some hard drive space.
He believes in the ideas of the Order, but has had a lot of time to contemplate the flaws of the institution itself. In a way, he's more of a Jedi than most Masters. He follows the Code, he's more or less inherently LS (even if you corrupt him, he becomes a Senator, not a Sith), and he defends the Republic and its people...just with a blaster and vibroblade instead of a saber.
well, as with everything worth believing in, you must have doubts about it, even just a little bit because there are those that will warp those beliefs for their own benefit. Any belief can cause people to drift away from the initial teachings and cause evil. Beliefs have a way of asserting itself as the moral compass and can therefore justify any action. It is why you must doubt your beliefs so that you can recognize when they have warped into evil. For the Jedi and the Sith, they believe themselves to be right and everybody else to be wrong and can therefore justify their actions, no matter what they may be.
Its more his whole naive boy scout appeal that I think throws people off his character in a game largely defined by cynical truths about the Star Wars universe with a nagging old lady who'll talk your ear off about the echoes you send out when you decide to eat a slice of pizza. That and I think Mical's role could've had some decent expansion perhaps if the game had a little more time in development. Also "No Atton! I think it may be a trap!" will forever be his best scene because he's a total dork.
Well the force would need some light side supremacists in order to keep the cycle going. If the Jedi survived in their current form, fine. If they all die? There'll always be more. They might not be called Jedi. But they effectively will be.
Not really... There have been other Force traditions. Some Light and some Dark. The path of the Force isn't always bound by Jedi or Sith and that's what Kreia was trying to say. For example, the Miraluka had their own teachings outside of the Jedi Order. One could be a Miraluka and not a Jedi or Sith. Yet, there were Miraluka Jedi and in Visa's position, a Miraluka Sith.
I find most of what she says are half truths. Lies with a little bit of truth. She's duplicitous and manipulative, who is to say she isn't lying most of the time to bend you to her will? Just spit balling here...
I'm convinced Arren Kae and Kreia are the same woman. Even though it's never said flat out, the way that Mical here and Kreia describe her, just seems to make sense! XD
I think they aren't. I think that Kreia is Obi-Wan's ancestor. Both she and Arren Kae were historians, but Arren Kae was more Light Side than Kreia ever was. Regardless, they both have similar philosophy, save that Kae was more clearer than Kreia.
@@michaelblower7363 Yes. Oddly enough, they look almost the same, save Arren Kae looks 25 years younger than Kreia Kenobi in KotOR 2. If she hadn't died, Arren Kae would have been 59, along with Kreia Kenobi being 74. Kreia Kenobi never viewed herself as a leader, but she is a powerful one, whether she admits it or not. She and Admiral Cede led a small Republic fleet to assault Sion's flagship, with the Ebon Hawk. 3C-FD is also Kreia's astromech droid. She was hurt when he was destroyed, as he was the only droid Kreia truly had respect for. After all, he aided in the construction of Kreia's double-bladed lightsaber. HK-47 even sabotaged Sion's ship, and then some Republic soldiers took the damaged HK-47 back to the Ebon Hawk. Kreia told the fleets to flee, as this is not a battle that can be won. Meanwhile, Kreia destroyed the hangar bay, and fled. Unbeknownst to her, however, some Sith Assassins boarded the Ebon Hawk, but Kreia murdered them all with her double-bladed lightsaber. This was the first sign that her connection to the Force was slowly returning. She played dead, along with the droids, 3C-FD and T3-M4, who made it look like the Ebon Hawk was disabled. When they were picked up by the Harbinger, along with Sion's ship, Kreia found Milo Surik, and brought him to safety, they managed to escape, but we both know what happened next…
You can not understand light properly without understanding dark. You can not understand dark properly without understanding light. Both of them are necessities of each other, they are balancing each other. Simple like that.
Which is precisely what Kreia seeks to end; killing the force. For those of you not aware, the Star Wars universe plays out in vast cycles of republic and empire and lightsabers and force and yadda yadda yadda over and over. That's because that universe is governed by a larger power seeking to forever maintain a status quo, to never allow true change, only the illusion of it. That is the truth of Star Wars; the Force shapes the fate and destinies of all life, to ensure eternal stagnation.
@@wakipaki7381 She elaborates it further by explaining how useless force users really are. They rely solely on this meta-entity, the force, for everything, becoming completely dependent on it and ignoring basic skills. The movies show it clearly when every war or coup happens due to complete lack of intelligence work or diplomatic negotiation.
@@vitordelima Which is a good criticism of over-relying on the Force. But the Force is literally Nature itself; you can't erase Nature just as much as you can't erase the Force. Kreia's opinions are interesting, but they're ultimately founded on nihilism and are self-destructive.
@@stephenjenkins7971 thats why she is so invested in the Exile. She believes the Exile is proof that the force can die and life can still go on. The exile is a "dead spot" in the force and theyre fine.
@@DoctorFail Oh yes, but recall how it was done. It was done through an immense loss of life, and very few people survived. And those that did, were irrevocably changed for the worst. Again, Kreia's ideals are born of self-destruction and nihilism that the Exile herself rebukes.
So to Mical and everyone the Jedi convinced Revan to come back and to defeat the Sith they hid the truth that they wiped his memory wonder why they did that. Was hiding the truth from the galaxy a better decision to them or was it for another reason?
I think that as arbiters of virtue, it'd be pretty bad PR for the Jedi. It's weird isn't it? In KOTOR 1 they act as if they don't know Revan when he arrives. The entire council and Bastilla lie right to your face.
@@PapitoQinnYeah it would be and Anti Jedi Sentiment was at an all time high during and after the war. If people found out the Jedi can wipe people's minds destroy their identity with a power they don't fully understand yeah it be pretty bad. Even some jedi like zez kai ell doesn't some ok with it when you talk with him in game.
@@dakotavanleer3859 The Jedi's lack of PR would be taken advantage of millennium later when Darth Sidious manages to paint them as traitors and usurpers
No, she left before him (she says as much herself - that Revan sought her out after his training in order to best learn how to leave the Order, as she had done).
Jedi are flawed...only by this, they believe they will be one with the force but instead they can actually reach immortality! Sith can only preserve themselves for so long till they die all together.
They accept the force and its dominion over their souls, they are therefore allowed to exist beyond death in its grasp for all eternity. The Sith are denied as they believe they could subjugate it while its the other way around. Neither seems like a reward to me.
Why would you say that they are being disrespectful? But even so, why would criticizing or even out right disrespecting the Jedi religion mean that you're on the dark side?
It's what Palpatine did, constantly negatively criticising the Jedi, culminating with, "And the Jedi rebellion has been foiled. The remaining Jedi will be hunted down and defeated! In order to ensure security and stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the First Galactic Empire! For a safe, and secure, society."
Palpatine didn't actually criticized the Jedi, he smeared them. I don't think criticism can ever be a negative thing, but insults and slander can. In this video we have ex-Jedi talking about the flaws of the institution.
His conversations with Anakin, he criticized the Jedi. Also, criticism can be both negative and positive. The word criticise derives from the Greek word, to judge. It is most often used negatively because of how it was most often used by Socrates.
Criticism can lead to negative outcomes, usually unintentionally, but the act itself can't be inherently negative. It's used to discuss flaws with idea of achieving improvements. While I can't claim to know everything that Palpatine told Anakin, he certainly did it as a mean of manipulation to the dark side. I doubt he would have to lie much. The Jedi have many flaws, and all he had to do was point them out at the right time. The opposite is also true, with dark sider or sith being manipulated away from their allegiances through criticism. Bastilla Shan comes to mind. But Revan was different. Were the Jedi able to convince Revan to rejoin them with their "rightness" as the Disciple assumed? No, they had to erase his mind. I suspect they were worried that they wouldn't be able to, or maybe they believe that you can't come back from the dark side otherwise, or deep down they knew they were wrong and couldn't win in a debate of words with Revan. We'll never know. It reminds me of being in a political debate, for example, and one party says something like: "You're an idiot, you don't understand." in an effort to end the debate. I can't count that as a victory.
"It is said he returned to his first master to learn how he may best leave the order."
*"J e E e E e D d I i I i ! ! ! !"*
"...I do not recall who Revans master was." LOL
ˢᵗʳᵃⁿᵍᵉ
Three years later and people still try to act like there is some debate over whether or not there is debate over whether or not Kreia & Kae are the same person.
Kreia Is A Jedi Who Knows A Lot! She Was Cast Out For Something She Didn’t Do! (Neutral)
Atris Is Nothing! She Casts Blame When She Should Take Responsibility! (Dark)
Vash Is A True Jedi Who Is Very Kind! (Very Light)
Kavar Is A Badaß War Veteran! He Has His Eyes Open! (Very Light, Later Neutral)
Vrook Is A Gigantic Aß Who Deserves Any Bad Things That Happen To Him! (Light, Later Dark)
Zez-Kai Ell Is A Jedi Who Has His Eyes Open, Unlike Vrook Lamar Who Can’t Even Open His Eyes! (Very Light, Later Neutral)
You must understand that this part was added because Obsidian tried to get the same answer from Bioware. Jedi was all that they said.
I guess Im asking randomly but does anybody know of a method to log back into an Instagram account??
I stupidly forgot my login password. I appreciate any help you can offer me.
There is an interesting bit of meta that makes two of the most...divisive characters in the KOTOR games utterly brilliant. When I ran a male Exile, and assumed an LSF Revan, I saw Disciple was reporting directly to Carth. Now, Carth wouldn't send just anyone on hunting down the Ebon Hawk. No, he would only someone he *trusted completely* with a job like that. And we all know how hard it is to earn that fellow's trust...Telos is where the Jedi were dumping washouts like Mical. Run the numbers, and it's likely he was heading to Telos just as Karath was leaving. So, it's likely Carth and Mical were tight even before KOTOR1. Meaning, Carth is probably the reason Mical starts as Soldier class, and Mical is the reason Carth was right to suspect the Jedi were pulling something during the Star Forge hunt.
That would make sense, if it wasn't for one thing. The Jedi send the people who fail the Jedi trials to places like Telos to serve the populace. But Mical never got that far. There wasn't anyone left to apprentice him, and he was doubting the Jedi ways after Meetra Surik was exiled. He never got the chance to fail. So the Jedi couldn't have sent him to Telos. But he did join the Republic afterwards.
@@PapitoQinn I'll admit that I couldn't shake the idea that the two crossed paths when Telos was razed, with the Service Corps ship Mical was on being one of the first responders to the aftermath. The timeline kinda adds up. Mical is 25 in K2, so he would have been about 15 at the time of Telos's destruction, which is about the age the Jedi either select a youngling for Padawan status or dump them somewhere like Telos. No one selected him, so he was lumped in with the ones who failed. Carth's a nice guy (higher on the karma mater than the party's Jedi!), and smart enough to figure that the Jedi's stupidity in throwing away a fellow like Mical would be the Republic's gain.
It was pretty obvious that he was a republic spy even going in blind into the story.
This is what I find so interesting about Star Wars; the ignorance of commoners about the Force and the orders that use it. Most people in Star Wars probably see the Jedi as a mysterious cult which can't be trusted. Most people don't even know the Sith exist, as Mical says in this video. I'd like to see a show some time about a commoner investigating the mysteries of the Jedi-and especially the Sith-to figure out what they really are.
This outside perspective should certainly be shown more. It seems that when a Jedi or Sith gains the force, they forget what it was like before the force was revealed to them and explained. Much as we can forget how we were as children when we grow up.
@@lordofcreativity9637 This is all the more case when you recall that the old Jedi Order took Force sensitive babies away from their families, so they don't even know about life without the Force since they were raised from near birth
You can't fight the dark side without understanding it and revan knew this
So did Kreia
@@liaml.e.5964 But Vrook Lamar Didn’t! He Was Bad!
Atris tried but failed, and fell to the dark side
This game is a lot more effective at being critical of the Jedi than TLJ was.
TLJ was a hollow shadow of this. An attempt to rip off the depth of Kreia but with no basis.
Rian Johnson was too arrogant to see that he could not write the struggle of the Force properly; as a result his end product was just a shallow recreation at best.
@@liaml.e.5964
Well, you are not wrong, but you must consider that a movie is roughly around 2 hours long while this game, its dialogues and different philosophies are explained in depth for much more than just those two hours.
Plus TLJ had a plot to fill (whether they accomplished that or not I do not want to discuss) and so they couldn't just fill the film with philosophies. They had to shorten it.
And KOTOR2 is a masterpiece. It's very difficult to best that.
@@friedibarti8070
And yet somehow Return of the Jedi managed to do just that, with both Obi-Wan and Yoda chiding Luke's foolishness in confronting Vader, and Vader himself questioning Luke's motives and abilities, and the Emperor toying with Luke's emotions, and yet Luke acted as a deconstructive (but not destructive) antithesis of the dogmatism of the extinct Jedi Order. In around 2 hours, the film delivered a surprisingly deep examination of the dichotomy of passion vs. serenity in the aspect of using (or being used by) the Force. Not to the same level as KOTOR 2, of course, but definitely more than The Last Jedi which was too focused on "subverting expectations" to say much besides denying the entire concept in a very basic and nihilistic way.
The Last Jedi was never critical of the Jedi. I swear, you charlatans didn't pay any attention.
@@roadent217 Thats the funniest aspect of the new trilogy. They were trying to be more "morally grey" than the originals, which they saw as very "goodies vs baddies", but they just ended up going over the same subject matter as the originals anyway. With worse writing and a worse cast.
I'd never considered this detail you're hitting, though. Because they told him to stay in Empire also, but it was that confrontation, and ultimately his almost suicidal loyalty to his friends (/sister) that allows him to win in the end anyway. He won thanks to ignoring half of what Yoda and Obi Wan were telling him. So why he would start training new students according to the old ways, then lose faith in the old ways, when he didn't even have faith in them the first time, is baffling.
I think they just forgot. Or didn't pay attention.
Gets even weirder when its Luke who is upset over the destruction of the "Jedi texts" and Yoda who doesn't care about them. Considering its obviously Yoda who follows them and not Luke. Jesus, my head hurts.
1:54 "There is no blame, all must accept." This is a mindset that one should cultivate. Not that one should completely suspend judgement, that is a vicious evil of its own. But to temporarily suspend judgement, to turn off your emotions of rage, indignation, fear, or mistrust, to look at others and their actions in the most detached manner possible. Only then, through thoughts unguarded by your base resentments and biases, can you truly judge something for yourself. And then, of course, once you have made these judgements, it will lead to new, more informed biases that will let you navigate the world with greater accuracy.
I think another important factor to why it was called "The Jedi Civil War" was the fact that Darth Revan, Darth Malak, and the majority of the so-called Sith were once Jedi. They went rogue from the Jedi Order and entered the Mandalorian Wars, then they returned from the Unknown Regions as an empire declaring war on the Republic and Jedi Order, and they went out of their way to turn more Jedi into Sith. To the average person who doesn't know what really separates Jedi and Sith, this would seem less of a conflict between two completely separate Orders and more of a single Order being split
It beautifully echo's the force wars, the very first schism of the order in its prototype state, because without the Jedi there never would have been the Sith, practice of both currents in the force was considered a normality back then, the practice of Ashla and Bogan upon their namesake moons. until the Jedi saw how far one could change, perhaps some would consider, evolve.. through use of the bogan. it brought them unease and fear, until it eventually gave way to a civil war, of calcified beliefs and practices. with those who sided upon the teachings of bogan defeated..made into leaving the order forever. exiled. in their hearts they never forgave the jedi, and their hatred for the jedi burns within in their teachings still like a fire.
whilst this is of course of the greatest importance and relevance to those who are connected to the force and part of either perspective, the galaxy around them can see no difference, no contrast. only men and women, or creatures of power, that have gone mad by using it. made tyrants and sorcerer kings because of it. wether it is they crusade for the greater good of "peace" in robes of white or absolute dominion through "power" in robes of black. to the outsider, the rest of the wider galaxy? to them, it is a horror show.
Indeed, to those who do not know better the Jedi and the Sith are simply two parts of the entire group. It is helped by the fact that the Sith originally came from the Jedi. Often the strongest or most prominent of the sith are those who were once Jedi and left the order. In the end to the rest of the galaxy the battle of Jedi and Sith is merely a battle between different sections of the same sect who have different views and drag everyone else into their personal conflicts. It is no wonder there are those who do not trust the Jedi when they cannot see how they and their enemies are truly any different and see it as one order with different perspectives ultimately bringing others into their personal conflict. The Jedi seem blind to this because they do not understand the perspectives of those who do not use the force, who do not see things as they do.
@@lordofcreativity9637 This is analysis of powerful Sith once being Jedi is all the stronger when you recall that the stage for the Mandalorian Wars was set by the fallen Jedi - Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma, both of whom were drawn to the Darkside by another fallen Jedi - Freedon Nadd.
The Jedi deny human nature, the sith get consumed by human nature, we must have a balance, kreia was right both need to end
Jolee Bindo was on the right track too. He said that the Jedi order should teach to guard against passion, not act like you're above it. You can see that here: th-cam.com/video/nvQcB3Fazbs/w-d-xo.html . Denying your humanity will just lead to disaster once your humanity is forced out.
You can't trully have balance in this context of the force. The force splits the galaxy into two versions, one light one dark. Every action you take within the universe has an outcome either good or evil. You would technically only choose one of the two or like the jedi, remain passive and uninvolved. This is why yoda states a jedi never lives for adventure, the jedi doesn't desire such things. When you make choices typically they are lightside choices. You would choose either light or dark, there is no in between choice. If you ever play kotor you realize the choices and alignment and so on. If you never played, this concept may be oblivious to you and thus ultimately believing in this balance philosophy. The jedi technically remain in balance as long as they are passive and at peace or whatever. "grey jedi" this is a generic term to describe a jedi outcast, it's not as if it's an ideology or an order. Kreia wanted to bring about the death of the force, this by no means is an indication of any kind of balance though.
The Jedi deny the evil tendencies of our nature, but not our nature wholesale.
Common misunderstanding, the idea of " balance" is like trying to balance mercy with genocide.
The Light IS the balance, the mercy, is the harmony, to say otherwise is ridiculous, and to attempt to stay in between good and evil is nothing more than arrogance.
One that stays on the fence is merely cold and apathetic, and if that is the case, then the "grey", is merely a oppressive darthness that veils itself in feined moral superiority to the light.
Thomas Dobbs who are you to decide what is right or wrong. What makes you think there is only one way. The jedi were more apathetic when they did not want to intervene in the mandalorion wars and Revan could not take that. Passiveness makes you weak, prey for the predators and psychotics. Engaging in aggressiveness makes you a psychotic. Assertiveness is the grey zone in all of that. Its the most sensible way to live. To be in tune with reality. You say grey people are arrogant yet the jedi condemned Revan for waging war in order to save others. So you're wrong about that.
What is the true battle, to defeat an ideal by bringing violence upon all who practice it? Or to immerse yourself in it without succumbing?
Those who cannot bring an alternative to an ideal are in no position to fight against it, let alone prevail. If you find yourself against an ideal, remind yourself that you not only defeat an enemy, but also gain an ally, should you triumph without bloodshed. For victory is realized when the falsehood, the pitfalls and the weakness of ideal is revealed. In short, Victory requires truth.
Well said. A new truth is required, not just the destruction of the old.
A question then: what should be done when facing an enemy that cares not of truth but of the power the ideal brings
@@garrisonjones1827
What are they an enemy of?
Are they an enemy of an idea? Then fear not, without truth, they cannot win. If they attempt to silence you, they show the world that they are afraid of what you have to say.
Are they the enemy of persons? Where they care not for any ideal but to inflict suffering and death only? Then they are not a rational creature but a beast that is intent only on its urges, and should be dealt like beasts.
In truth, your enemies are rarely one or the other, but often a mixture of both. Some who object to your ideal may harbour a selfish hatred against you as a person. Some who seem to only want to harm you, may instead bear hatred for the ideal you represent instead. Talk to them, reach them, finding out what drives your enemies is just as important as defeating them. Because sometimes you find your enemies are in fact misunderstood comrades, and vice versa.
When speaking with your enemies, or anyone who does not believe as you do. Do not be afraid. Be open to their ideals but remember your own. You have nothing to lose, as you will either emerge victorious and have sharpened your ideal against contrary notions, or you will learn from your enemies as to the weakness of your ideal and evolved the way you see things.
To believe in an ideal is to be willing to betray it. To have the faith that if any ideal is worthy to be a truth, then it shall remain standing when you depart from it, as you will inevitably find your way back to it. Otherwise, you have merely falsified a fake truth, and you will have learned, and lost nothing.
Exar Kun was arrogant and power hungry from the very beginning, and Vodo knew it. He saw a piece of darkness that absorbed the light. But his fault was in denying the studying of the dark side for Exar, for when he left to reach it himself, Freedon Nadd closed his way back to the light. The less you know about the dark side, the more you covet it. And the more it absorbs you.
Partially true, but like the most addictive drug; the Dark Side can and has simply twisted people to become monstrous Sith when they delve into it. Frankly, only the most disciplined of Force Users can use the Dark Side correctly, so it makes sense why the Jedi would be wary of letting anyone interested in it delve into it. It's a VERY slippery slope that only a few in the EU has managed.
@@stephenjenkins7971 Even so, those who say that no one can turn away from the dark side is hopeless. Only those who truly revel in destruction cannot turn away. But Vader wasn't the only example of those who turned away from it. Anakin only turned to protect those he loved; Padme, Ashoka, and Obi Wan, until he thought the latter betrayed him, and it was his son who convinced him to be the hero. Yuthura Ban only turned to the Dark Side to save her friends, Mekel joins up with you if you let Jorak torture you, and even Ajunta Pall returns to the light posthumously after his ghost expresses regret.
This is Star Wars!!
KOTOR 2 drinking game: take a shot every time Mical says "Jedi."
Take a shot whenever someone said echo
Statement: Organic meatbag organs cannot withstand that amount of alcohol, so that would likely end in death. Go ahead.
Take a shot for every lesson that Kreia tries to teach you
A shot for his many times "echo" is said and how many times Revan and Malak is said in the first game.
*dead*
Fundamental flaw is correct. Mical seems to illustrate a pattern among powerful force users like Exar Kun, Ulic Qel Droma and Revan and Malak and their Jedi Masters inability to try to manuever them away from the Dark side or even outright stop them and not notice the pattern through history. Something Luke's New Jedi Order tried to remedy.
The Jedi almost like to pretend as if the dark side doesn't exist. They keep their students so isolated from it that once they come into contact with it, they don't know how to deal with it.
Indeed, the Old Jedi order was of the philosophy that those who fell to the dark side were beyond redemption, which I find interesting as if someone is able to fall to the dark side why is bringing someone back to the light so difficult? One could chock it up to the difficulty of trying to do so and perhaps from a public standpoint that a person that causes such destruction is beyond redemption such as Exar Kun, but I think it was easier for the Jedi Order to look outward rather then inward at any fundamental flaws or practices that would encourage dark side users to rise up out of any numerous reasons, not just even impatience or jealousy, but the psychological outcomes of being inducted since childbirth, never knowing their families or attachment, lack of understanding of the emotional needs of human or even species nature is something that makes me surprised the Order has lasted as long as it has.
True! Atris Would Probably Kill Han Solo By Shoving Meetra Surik’s Lightsaber Up His Aß!
Indeed, it seems that the Jedi fail to learn from history and so they end up repeating it. It seems that they prefer to avoid the problem of the dark side except to say that it is forbidden and bad which in my eyes only ends up making it more enticing especially in times where they are desperate. Avoiding the problem means that they are ill-equipped for when they encounter it and so they fall and their fellows choose to cut them loose rather than use it as introspective or self-reflection. I think they are blind to their flaws partly because they don't want to see it.
Hahaha i love T3 driving past at 2:13
This game was brilliantly deep in its philosofy. Way ahead of the rest of the franchise.
I'll be honest, when I first played this game back when I was ~12 I hated the disciple. After several years and many playthroughs I gradually started to like him. Now I think he's one of the more interesting characters in the game, about on par with Atton.
But than you get no Visas. She is more interesting to me...
Turtlemaroon No, you don’t get the Handmaiden. But yes, she’s much more interesting than Michal.
He's one of those characters where meta and fanfic are going to be able to cut him a better deal than the actual text.
@@Allronix Hey, I remember your KOTOR dialog mod!
@@sambridgers9543 Awesome! I'm glad it was memorable! I tried to make my additions sound as close to the game's original writing as possible.
This game brought a lot of knowledge of The Tales of the Jedi comics to light as well as The Golden Age of the Sith comics to light as well.
Great videos. I like how you're taking crucial cerebral parts of the game and uploading them. subbed.
Thanks. Anything discussing philosophy, politics, religion, stories, or lore. I try to focus on those, yes. But I'm not above uploading other stuff I want to preserve. Also if you see any completely unrelated or uninteresting stuff being published, that's probably me trying to clear up some hard drive space.
It's good stuff, all of it. Haha good to know.
Interesting. As much as he hangs on the lips of the Jedi, even he has his doubts about their methods, at least in small part.
*Jedi!*
He believes in the ideas of the Order, but has had a lot of time to contemplate the flaws of the institution itself. In a way, he's more of a Jedi than most Masters. He follows the Code, he's more or less inherently LS (even if you corrupt him, he becomes a Senator, not a Sith), and he defends the Republic and its people...just with a blaster and vibroblade instead of a saber.
well, as with everything worth believing in, you must have doubts about it, even just a little bit because there are those that will warp those beliefs for their own benefit. Any belief can cause people to drift away from the initial teachings and cause evil. Beliefs have a way of asserting itself as the moral compass and can therefore justify any action. It is why you must doubt your beliefs so that you can recognize when they have warped into evil. For the Jedi and the Sith, they believe themselves to be right and everybody else to be wrong and can therefore justify their actions, no matter what they may be.
This character and Kreia literally make kotor 2 the best star wars game for themselves
I like how he's just giving a profound analysis of the shortcomings of the Jedi while T3 just casually rolls by in the background
I wonder what T3 could add to the conversation.
Love these videos.
Thank you! I made this one quite a while ago.
I feel it so strange how everyone calls Disciple so bland. He’s kind of like Kreia just more....Mical
He isn't a very interesting character because we've seen his sort before, a paladin basically. But he certainly has interesting things to say.
Papito Qinn Yeah I agree on that
Its more his whole naive boy scout appeal that I think throws people off his character in a game largely defined by cynical truths about the Star Wars universe with a nagging old lady who'll talk your ear off about the echoes you send out when you decide to eat a slice of pizza.
That and I think Mical's role could've had some decent expansion perhaps if the game had a little more time in development.
Also "No Atton! I think it may be a trap!" will forever be his best scene because he's a total dork.
Mical is too smart and pure for Kreia
I only just now found out that this guy was a recruitable character. Barely remembered him on Dantooine, we talked and he left. I thought that was it.
He only joins your party if your character is female. For male characters you get the Last of the Handmaiden.
"It is not the way of of the Jedi to vanish in such a way"
Obi-Wan: 👀
Yoda: 👀
Luke: 👀
Well if we follow Kreia, we can believe that the Force wanted to have the jedi die. So that the cycle can continue...
Well the force would need some light side supremacists in order to keep the cycle going. If the Jedi survived in their current form, fine. If they all die? There'll always be more. They might not be called Jedi. But they effectively will be.
Not really...
There have been other Force traditions. Some Light and some Dark. The path of the Force isn't always bound by Jedi or Sith and that's what Kreia was trying to say.
For example, the Miraluka had their own teachings outside of the Jedi Order. One could be a Miraluka and not a Jedi or Sith. Yet, there were Miraluka Jedi and in Visa's position, a Miraluka Sith.
I find most of what she says are half truths. Lies with a little bit of truth. She's duplicitous and manipulative, who is to say she isn't lying most of the time to bend you to her will? Just spit balling here...
I'm convinced Arren Kae and Kreia are the same woman. Even though it's never said flat out, the way that Mical here and Kreia describe her, just seems to make sense! XD
They Are the Same Person - Arren Kae + Traya ( take the k and e from kae and remove T and the 1st a = Kreya Or Kreia
I think they aren't. I think that Kreia is Obi-Wan's ancestor. Both she and Arren Kae were historians, but Arren Kae was more Light Side than Kreia ever was. Regardless, they both have similar philosophy, save that Kae was more clearer than Kreia.
@@mr.vorrnyvorrn2516 Kreia is Obi-Wan's ancestor? That is a bit of a wild statement there.
@@michaelblower7363 Yes. Oddly enough, they look almost the same, save Arren Kae looks 25 years younger than Kreia Kenobi in KotOR 2. If she hadn't died, Arren Kae would have been 59, along with Kreia Kenobi being 74. Kreia Kenobi never viewed herself as a leader, but she is a powerful one, whether she admits it or not. She and Admiral Cede led a small Republic fleet to assault Sion's flagship, with the Ebon Hawk. 3C-FD is also Kreia's astromech droid. She was hurt when he was destroyed, as he was the only droid Kreia truly had respect for. After all, he aided in the construction of Kreia's double-bladed lightsaber. HK-47 even sabotaged Sion's ship, and then some Republic soldiers took the damaged HK-47 back to the Ebon Hawk. Kreia told the fleets to flee, as this is not a battle that can be won. Meanwhile, Kreia destroyed the hangar bay, and fled. Unbeknownst to her, however, some Sith Assassins boarded the Ebon Hawk, but Kreia murdered them all with her double-bladed lightsaber. This was the first sign that her connection to the Force was slowly returning. She played dead, along with the droids, 3C-FD and T3-M4, who made it look like the Ebon Hawk was disabled. When they were picked up by the Harbinger, along with Sion's ship, Kreia found Milo Surik, and brought him to safety, they managed to escape, but we both know what happened next…
You can not understand light properly without understanding dark.
You can not understand dark properly without understanding light.
Both of them are necessities of each other, they are balancing each other.
Simple like that.
Jedi and Sith are two sides of the same coin. They never learn, change, adapt or improve, always in an infinite cycle of shit.
Which is precisely what Kreia seeks to end; killing the force.
For those of you not aware, the Star Wars universe plays out in vast cycles of republic and empire and lightsabers and force and yadda yadda yadda over and over. That's because that universe is governed by a larger power seeking to forever maintain a status quo, to never allow true change, only the illusion of it. That is the truth of Star Wars; the Force shapes the fate and destinies of all life, to ensure eternal stagnation.
@@wakipaki7381 She elaborates it further by explaining how useless force users really are. They rely solely on this meta-entity, the force, for everything, becoming completely dependent on it and ignoring basic skills.
The movies show it clearly when every war or coup happens due to complete lack of intelligence work or diplomatic negotiation.
@@vitordelima Which is a good criticism of over-relying on the Force. But the Force is literally Nature itself; you can't erase Nature just as much as you can't erase the Force. Kreia's opinions are interesting, but they're ultimately founded on nihilism and are self-destructive.
@@stephenjenkins7971 thats why she is so invested in the Exile. She believes the Exile is proof that the force can die and life can still go on. The exile is a "dead spot" in the force and theyre fine.
@@DoctorFail Oh yes, but recall how it was done. It was done through an immense loss of life, and very few people survived. And those that did, were irrevocably changed for the worst. Again, Kreia's ideals are born of self-destruction and nihilism that the Exile herself rebukes.
The force existed long ago before jedi and sith divaded into light and dark
So to Mical and everyone the Jedi convinced Revan to come back and to defeat the Sith they hid the truth that they wiped his memory wonder why they did that. Was hiding the truth from the galaxy a better decision to them or was it for another reason?
I think that as arbiters of virtue, it'd be pretty bad PR for the Jedi. It's weird isn't it? In KOTOR 1 they act as if they don't know Revan when he arrives. The entire council and Bastilla lie right to your face.
@@PapitoQinnYeah it would be and Anti Jedi Sentiment was at an all time high during and after the war. If people found out the Jedi can wipe people's minds destroy their identity with a power they don't fully understand yeah it be pretty bad. Even some jedi like zez kai ell doesn't some ok with it when you talk with him in game.
Yeah, I heard that bit and thought "Oh, you should have asked your boss about that. I'm betting you didn't, because you would have gotten an earful."
@@PapitoQinn Please excuse me, but since when did the Jedi care about PR? Their lack of PR has more than once been taken advantage of by the Sith
@@dakotavanleer3859 The Jedi's lack of PR would be taken advantage of millennium later when Darth Sidious manages to paint them as traitors and usurpers
God I miss this game
2:12 le epic moment
There are technique s within the force against which there is no defense
Oh mical you sweet summer child. If only he had known the truth about the jedi council mindwiping revan.
say jedi again
adambakas13 hello there Jedi hater
adambakas13 (force chokes you to death) JEDI!!!
they speak english in jedi?
i thought Kreia left the order after Revan?
No, she left before him (she says as much herself - that Revan sought her out after his training in order to best learn how to leave the Order, as she had done).
IT BROKE NEW GROUND
Jedi are flawed...only by this, they believe they will be one with the force but instead they can actually reach immortality! Sith can only preserve themselves for so long till they die all together.
They accept the force and its dominion over their souls, they are therefore allowed to exist beyond death in its grasp for all eternity. The Sith are denied as they believe they could subjugate it while its the other way around. Neither seems like a reward to me.
Wait a second... That means, that Kae wasn't his first and last Master...
Luke was right about the jedi its history is filled with failures and hypocrisy.
Good One! Revan Tried To Help, But Vrook Lamar said “You Are A Tyrant That Must Be Executed”!
The Jedi keep peace by spending most their time failing to stop fallen Jedi. No force users at all will always be better than that.
This game is just anti-jedi propaganda
I think its more a lovely auto cricticism. Something that Ahsoka might agree to
There is so much disrespect for the Jedi here, the Dark Side I sense in you.
Why would you say that they are being disrespectful? But even so, why would criticizing or even out right disrespecting the Jedi religion mean that you're on the dark side?
It's what Palpatine did, constantly negatively criticising the Jedi, culminating with, "And the Jedi rebellion has been foiled. The remaining Jedi will be hunted down and defeated! In order to ensure security and stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the First Galactic Empire! For a safe, and secure, society."
Palpatine didn't actually criticized the Jedi, he smeared them. I don't think criticism can ever be a negative thing, but insults and slander can. In this video we have ex-Jedi talking about the flaws of the institution.
His conversations with Anakin, he criticized the Jedi. Also, criticism can be both negative and positive. The word criticise derives from the Greek word, to judge. It is most often used negatively because of how it was most often used by Socrates.
Criticism can lead to negative outcomes, usually unintentionally, but the act itself can't be inherently negative. It's used to discuss flaws with idea of achieving improvements. While I can't claim to know everything that Palpatine told Anakin, he certainly did it as a mean of manipulation to the dark side. I doubt he would have to lie much. The Jedi have many flaws, and all he had to do was point them out at the right time. The opposite is also true, with dark sider or sith being manipulated away from their allegiances through criticism. Bastilla Shan comes to mind.
But Revan was different. Were the Jedi able to convince Revan to rejoin them with their "rightness" as the Disciple assumed? No, they had to erase his mind. I suspect they were worried that they wouldn't be able to, or maybe they believe that you can't come back from the dark side otherwise, or deep down they knew they were wrong and couldn't win in a debate of words with Revan. We'll never know. It reminds me of being in a political debate, for example, and one party says something like: "You're an idiot, you don't understand." in an effort to end the debate. I can't count that as a victory.