Just a fun video I made of a Norfolk Southern train that stalled on Horseshoe Curve. This was filmed on 6/2/19. Also be sure to check out my Instagram page @pennsylvania_rails
I was born in Altoona during WWII. My grandfather worked in the railroad shops and my mother would always take us out to Horseshoe Curve. . The whole idea to it was that locomotives could negotiate that grade in the western Pennsylvania mountains. It was a world famous engineering feat in the early 20th century. Don't know why this guy only had one engine for that long train.
Yeah, single engine puzzled me too yet.. My grandpa aka Pap did 58 yrs @ PRR in Altoona from brakeman to block operator. Unfortunately he died in '66 when I was 4 so no shop tours for me. Truly enjoyed the Arcade ( SwNY*) & Attica RR as a youngster & went several times. Still operates but don't know if they still have steamers. *we were the only family that moved there; 3 went to Canton, OH
I absolute love trains but the panoramic view of the lush Pennsylvania landscape makes this my favorite train video...EVER! Thank you, Dan! If I lived there, I'd be parked in that little viewing area, every day.
Great video for sure. Pennsylvania summers at their best. The only time the curve and the Pennsylvania mountains look any better is in the early fall when the leaves turn but haven't dropped much yet.
Tonnage tables/charts for each locomotive type were put into employee timetables for a reason.....to make sure crap like this didn’t happen! Now, you have a bunch of non-railroader bean counters who ignore all of it and try to see how many hundreds of cars that can throw behind an engine in the name of “Precision Scheduled Railroading.” This is the result.
Can't believe that train was assigned 1 loco when the passing coal train had 2 on the front end and a helper set on back. NS is either cheap or terminal dumb or both.
Lots of friction in the curve , and not enough HP assigned to this train caused it to just stop. I'm no train engineer, but I do ask myself why the Engineer & Conductor agreed to take this train with a single loco on the front end. My guess is they were TOLD by their Boss or a Dispatcher, someone who has never operated a train in their life.
Well, there may not have been a helper set available in Altoona at the time, so possibly told to get as far as they could and they'd get a help as soon as one was free. Happened before.
Oh, you think the RR's care about that? lol they couldn't give the slightest fuck. Depending on the RR you run off of either TPA or HpT and to the RR, as long as "the numbers are good" the train is good to go. They account for the entire route of the train and often forget about the little hill in the middle. Oh well, just get another crew and find another motor. Rinse and repeat.
Nope. The trainmaster assigned the power and that's that. At CN it's the same thing. If it stalls they'll have to find power elsewhere. CN has notch restrictions. Engineers CANNOT go over notch 5. If they do it's a 30 day suspension. There are black boxes on rack locomotive and the trainmasters download the information on their laptops.
I'm curious as to why Northfolk Southern sent this coal train up the grade with only one locomotive and expected it to make it. You don't often see a single unit at the head of a coal train on flat land let alone trying to climb a hill.
Been to this spot so many times growing up in Altoona. Used to count the steps on the way up and down. Now I just play on my phone during the incline ride.
cool, i was walking up the steps, when that train stalled out, it wasn't raining when i arrived at the curve, but those few raindrops was enough to stall the train
Having watched countless hours of the Horseshoe on Virtual Railfan, I have no clue why that train would only have a single engine with no helpers to get up the Curve as you need at least 3 engines as a minimum to do that properly
Precision Scheduled Railroading, AKA: Uphill slow, downhill fast, tonnage first and safety last! In PSR you only put one unit in the lead and no helpers.
@@doncarlton4858 that's great and all but you've never seen how the Horseshoe works as it's ALWAYS at least 2 engines on the front and 2 helpers usually at the back
@@MrThedwp The elevation of Cresson (west of the HC) is 2.057 feet; Altoona (east of the HC) is 1.161. I call that a huge difference in height some 15 miles apart from each other!
Not enough of diesels to pull the load. The old steamers used to pull loads up this curve back in the day. My grandfather, great grandfather and allied families worked for the PPR back when steam was king. One distant cousin was killed in a train crash at Axmen back in the late 1940’s. Two trains where on the same track. Made front page news.
It was the same management that decided 2 yrs. ago that 6 empty lumber cars up near the locos on a long train derailed climbing out of Altoona on the curve & we’re surprised!
Us locals to the Horseshoe Curve call these incidents "Norfolk Southern Gravity Experiments". Worst part about this is: Those cars are empty. No coal headed West. Just empty's.
I just love to see the trains go by remember gravity is still in control whether your loaded or empty if you don't have the horses your gonna stop. Been stopped at RR crossings many time due to a train not having the engines to make the pull. Been in the transportation industry for 30 years and it is the same all over many times people in the offices don't know what it is like on the RR or the highway. A computer tells them it will work when the driver knows good and well it is a wasted effort not matter what part of the transportation industry comes from. Love the trains though raw brute power still stopped gravity. Nature always wins. Love the video love the trains pulling hard keep it up as long as you can we will watch the beasts pull no matter what happens on the rails.
The math probably said yes, one loco should be able to pull that string of empties but only barely. The curve, the weather, maybe a stuck set of brakes etc meant no. But as its the lowest priority, its cheaper to send it out with a single and maybe not need help and then, if it is needed, send a local power pair to get it up the curve and be done. Seems silly but its probably more efficient in the long run.
Finally a sensible answer. I worked for the NS Railway for years and believe me they always get the most out of their motive power. Sometimes decisions don’t seem to make sense but you can bet they usually have a sound reason for what they do.
Only options you got are back down the grade which is highly unlikely or get some helper units to arrive as that’s far more safer. Gotta think safety first.
Lol i love how the other engineer on the passing train blows the horn at the stopped train adding insult to him lol yeah you need two to haul not just 1
Some NS bean counter is like “Impressive, EMD. Next time is a GE. We’ll do one Dash 9 and 130 hoppers for the curve.” Maybe this is the PSR replacement for load tests. ONE UNIT😂🤦🏻♂️ c’mon man!
It can be done in both ways. When it’s done manual they would communicate with radio, when they are done in remote control it is all controlled by the main locomotive
In a situation like this I'd have 2 leaders and a DPU to ensure the load keeps moving. I'd rather have too much power than not enough. What's it hurt to burn a little more diesel fuel than to have to get sidelined waiting for another unit to arrive to assist w the move? And I say this for all trains.
If that was a siding, don’t know without a rail chart, or double main. Train masters are ultimate say on how many engines . But the two helpers on rear could have been there and he was allowing the second train to pass or the extra engines coupled later ?
It would seem like stall outs like this would be costly, can there really be that much of a + or - factor in figuring how much horsepower it would take the move x amount of weight through a given area !? Especially one travelled on a daily basis.
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It annoys me that the photographer just carried on filming when he could have helped push it up the hill.
Lmao
🤣
😀😄😁😆😂🤣😭
And the people making comments, absolutely worthless too!
😅
@@gonebamboo4116, yep we should have been there too
I was born in Altoona during WWII. My grandfather worked in the railroad shops and my mother would always take us out to Horseshoe Curve. . The whole idea to it was that locomotives could negotiate that grade in the western Pennsylvania mountains. It was a world famous engineering feat in the early 20th century. Don't know why this guy only had one engine for that long train.
My Dad was born in Altoona. I know right where this is.
Yeah, single engine puzzled me too yet..
My grandpa aka Pap did 58 yrs @ PRR in Altoona from brakeman to block operator. Unfortunately he died in '66 when I was 4 so no shop tours for me. Truly enjoyed the Arcade ( SwNY*) & Attica RR as a youngster & went several times. Still operates but don't know if they still have steamers.
*we were the only family that moved there; 3 went to Canton, OH
On a different subject, do you remember the gas station nearby that for many years featured a bear in a large cage? 1960s?
Because the accountant in Atlanta said it would work…
and a emd also not heavy enough
I absolute love trains but the panoramic view of the lush Pennsylvania landscape makes this my favorite train video...EVER! Thank you, Dan! If I lived there, I'd be parked in that little viewing area, every day.
Great video for sure. Pennsylvania summers at their best. The only time the curve and the Pennsylvania mountains look any better is in the early fall when the leaves turn but haven't dropped much yet.
I’ve worked on those tracks before, the whole time we were there I always witnessed 2 engines in the front and 2 helpers in the rear!!!
Tonnage tables/charts for each locomotive type were put into employee timetables for a reason.....to make sure crap like this didn’t happen! Now, you have a bunch of non-railroader bean counters who ignore all of it and try to see how many hundreds of cars that can throw behind an engine in the name of “Precision Scheduled Railroading.” This is the result.
All he needed was a little help from his friends. 🚂
Yeah, he got by with a little help from his friends. He got high(er) with a little help from his friends.
Can't believe that train was assigned 1 loco when the passing coal train had 2 on the front end and a helper set on back. NS is either cheap or terminal dumb or both.
Welcome to PSR. Cutting costs for the share price
I think the same when I saw only one locomotive. Especially, seeing that it was a coal train.
@@traingirl09 empties
Correct!
@@jonglass, ah ok. I didn't look closely to see if it was. Thanks for the call out.
What is astounding to me is the amount of torque applied to get the train moving on that incline. The wonders of diesel-electric propulsion!
I’m sure the insulation on the traction motor cables liked that!
You mean that stuff dripping off the cables that's hot as lava?
Wet day mate by the looks of it. Current draw would be a lot lower due to traction problems
Oh they loved it
Can smell it from here! 😂
I would like to know why only 1 loco was assigned to that train!
PSR. Its cheaper to just let the train stall and scramble to find a helper than it is to have one ready to go when you get there
Pathetic. Conrail knew how to move trains better
It's sad to me what has become of NS.
The dispatcher have some explaining to do about this. 🤔
I wonder if someone was fired on that day.
Lots of friction in the curve , and not enough HP assigned to this train caused it to just stop. I'm no train engineer, but I do ask myself why the Engineer & Conductor agreed to take this train with a single loco on the front end. My guess is they were TOLD by their Boss or a Dispatcher, someone who has never operated a train in their life.
Management at their best. Someone promoted to the point beyond their capability.
Well, there may not have been a helper set available in Altoona at the time, so possibly told to get as far as they could and they'd get a help as soon as one was free. Happened before.
@@350Scrambler I’m
@@denislapointe7692 You're what?
Part of the conductors job is train compliance, making sure they have the proper hpt to get over the hill.
I bet either the dispatcher or power desk clerk got their asses handed to them for dispatching a train for the hill under powered.
Oh, you think the RR's care about that? lol they couldn't give the slightest fuck. Depending on the RR you run off of either TPA or HpT and to the RR, as long as "the numbers are good" the train is good to go. They account for the entire route of the train and often forget about the little hill in the middle. Oh well, just get another crew and find another motor. Rinse and repeat.
Nope. The trainmaster assigned the power and that's that. At CN it's the same thing. If it stalls they'll have to find power elsewhere. CN has notch restrictions. Engineers CANNOT go over notch 5. If they do it's a 30 day suspension. There are black boxes on rack locomotive and the trainmasters download the information on their laptops.
It sounds like the UP under powered
I was here in 2012. A must-see place to visit if you like trains. The trains just keep coming and coming.
That was nuts only one engine on that train
You would think that NS should know how many units or horses needed to complete the run.
Well, of course they do. This was just a publicity stunt
This is ns being stupid .
One locomotive!? I know the trains empty but he didn't stand a chance! Come on NS!!!
That’s a hell of a consist for one engine
I thought he was going to stop and see if the stalled engineer needed a ride 🤭🤭
I'm curious as to why Northfolk Southern sent this coal train up the grade with only one locomotive and expected it to make it. You don't often see a single unit at the head of a coal train on flat land let alone trying to climb a hill.
Been to this spot so many times growing up in Altoona. Used to count the steps on the way up and down. Now I just play on my phone during the incline ride.
Yes on my trip to the US in 2010 spent a few enjoyable hours at this spot
Incline has been out of service for probably three years now give or take
That is actually a very nice place :) Beautiful nature and trains!
That’s what I thought as well.
But the A.I. said it would work!
Just absolutely beautiful, saving money for sure.
Usually at Altoona they add a lash up on the rear of the going up the hill must of added them on after the one loco could not handle the grade
This is when the mac really NEEDED those 6000HP
Sd70acu not a mac 😊
@@NorthernIndianaRails It was a joke but the ACU was originally a MAC
@@midwesternrail4729 sorry i didn't know you where joking :)
How so weird! I put in an application for this company and this video popped up on my feed!! Interesting and informative to watch! Thanks for sharing!
I would've loved to hear what the 2nd train conductor was saying to the 1st one on their radio system.
I bet it was a good chirp
cool, i was walking up the steps, when that train stalled out, it wasn't raining when i arrived at the curve, but those few raindrops was enough to stall the train
I'm betting flange friction.
teamwork makes the dreamwork
Should always have two (2) Pushers on Every Train on this Subdivision of the NS Railroad Line.👍
According to Train Sim world, the Curve is on a 1.6% grade. So trains coming out of Altoona are climbing that grade.
Having watched countless hours of the Horseshoe on Virtual Railfan, I have no clue why that train would only have a single engine with no helpers to get up the Curve as you need at least 3 engines as a minimum to do that properly
Precision Scheduled Railroading, AKA: Uphill slow, downhill fast, tonnage first and safety last! In PSR you only put one unit in the lead and no helpers.
@@doncarlton4858 that's great and all but you've never seen how the Horseshoe works as it's ALWAYS at least 2 engines on the front and 2 helpers usually at the back
Indeed i also watch Virtual Railfan and have never seen an empty coal train with 1 engine!
@@jwslijm7278 thank you as at least someone knows the score around here
@@MrThedwp The elevation of Cresson (west of the HC) is 2.057 feet; Altoona (east of the HC) is 1.161. I call that a huge difference in height some 15 miles apart from each other!
Wow that's amazing I was not expecting to see SD's push him up the hill
I'm very surprised this train only had one locomotive. Should have had a second unit.
Great footage! 😊
Great job and great view of the curve
Thanks! I'm glad you enjoyed it!
Your welcome you should check out my NS train catch’s from here and the Conway yard
This was a costly drop off.
Putting either one or two remote pushers at the back would have avoided the delay, possable danger and cost.
One extremely *"Sad Day For Railroading"* 😢
.
. *_But very interesting for _**_#Rail_Fans_* 🤗 👍
Regular yard master on holiday again?
It's amazing that under such a load that locomotive isn't belching out black smoke!
Modern emission controls say no!
Great video like it very much .Hope there more to come .
high hood: COME ON YOU CAN DO IT
Ns 7272: feels happy
Great video it looks like that engine may need a few more helper engines
I hear they got a strong union and it was just time for coffee.
Nice video. This must have been recorded before 2020, with the older helpers.
Just on that route from Pitt to Florida
Nice ride.
Always SDs to the rescue. LMAO 🤣
Are they still useed as helpers even though NS has 3 sets of SD70Acu helpers
All I can say is HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Precision failroading in action.
The engineers don't wave from the trains anymore, not like they did back in 1954.
I've never seen a single diesel loco at the head of a coal drag.
That old train engine i will have to get a picture of that someday too
0:01 the litt”NORFOLK SOUTHERN” that could
Beginning of a new mission in train sim world 2..
I am pretty sure I have seen both 6311 and 6308 in Radford Va, N&S rail yard located there I think at the time they were pulling an intermodal drag.
Not enough of diesels to pull the load. The old steamers used to pull loads up this curve back in the day. My grandfather, great grandfather and allied families worked for the PPR back when steam was king. One distant cousin was killed in a train crash at Axmen back in the late 1940’s. Two trains where on the same track. Made front page news.
My fprofeeser at college worked as a logistics manager at SWIFT Transportation . His math showed only one little engine would pull 23000 ft. train.
He's probably the idiot that convincing the railroads to use PSR!
Did his math take into consideration that real railroads have inclines and curves?
@@stanpatterson5033 I believe that was the joke.
I guess trains aren't that strong after all, lol
nice vid, greetings from Washington
-Konlin Kuykendall
Way to go NS ; There IS a mountain there at the curve , power the trains with THAT in mind !!
It was the same management that decided 2 yrs. ago that 6 empty lumber cars up near the locos on a long train derailed climbing out of Altoona on the curve & we’re surprised!
Dispatch screwed that move up. Other empty coal train had 2 units no problem , this one only got single unit
Who's the genius trainmaster that put one engine on the lead for a climb up the east slope ?
What happens you say ??Well of course you say Giddy Up ...😂😂🐴🐴
The trainmaster doesnt care if the train is under powered once it departs the yard its not his responsibility 😂
The little train that couldn't
One Loco on a coal train .....up hill....... I can’t believe it stalled .....???
PSR strikes again!
(As Gordon the Big Express Engine) Oooohh, The Indignity!
As Mr Rogers used to say, "Look for the helpers!"
Us locals to the Horseshoe Curve call these incidents "Norfolk Southern Gravity Experiments". Worst part about this is: Those cars are empty. No coal headed West. Just empty's.
I just love to see the trains go by remember gravity is still in control whether your loaded or empty if you don't have the horses your gonna stop. Been stopped at RR crossings many time due to a train not having the engines to make the pull. Been in the transportation industry for 30 years and it is the same all over many times people in the offices don't know what it is like on the RR or the highway. A computer tells them it will work when the driver knows good and well it is a wasted effort not matter what part of the transportation industry comes from. Love the trains though raw brute power still stopped gravity. Nature always wins. Love the video love the trains pulling hard keep it up as long as you can we will watch the beasts pull no matter what happens on the rails.
The math probably said yes, one loco should be able to pull that string of empties but only barely. The curve, the weather, maybe a stuck set of brakes etc meant no. But as its the lowest priority, its cheaper to send it out with a single and maybe not need help and then, if it is needed, send a local power pair to get it up the curve and be done. Seems silly but its probably more efficient in the long run.
Finally a sensible answer. I worked for the NS Railway for years and believe me they always get the most out of their motive power. Sometimes decisions don’t seem to make sense but you can bet they usually have a sound reason for what they do.
Seen that happen first hand, same place. I live about 45 minutes from there
"Helper? We don't need no stinking helper!"
Just like on Thomas the Train. Choo Choo! 🚂🚃🚃
My fuel is bad and will not burn,
My power is gone, not to return,
So here I sit upon this hill,
With the angels whispering
"Peace, be still."
Needs one of those monster BNSF engines they use out West for that run!
Only options you got are back down the grade which is highly unlikely or get some helper units to arrive as that’s far more safer. Gotta think safety first.
Lol i love how the other engineer on the passing train blows the horn at the stopped train adding insult to him lol yeah you need two to haul not just 1
As crazy as it was to have 1 engine going up but how unsafe would that have been coming down
You should get out there and give it a bit of a push😜
Notchup!
Some NS bean counter is like “Impressive, EMD. Next time is a GE. We’ll do one Dash 9 and 130 hoppers for the curve.” Maybe this is the PSR replacement for load tests. ONE UNIT😂🤦🏻♂️ c’mon man!
The High Gondola's were ALL HEAVELY LOADED obviously, and Sanding wasn't enough And it took TWO ADDITIONAL HELPERS!
All empty.
When is the cam coming back?
Who makes the decision on how many locomotives / train configurations?
It was good that there was a pair of banking locos available.
Nice pair of standard cabs on the rear, anyway.
It's a jb hunt engine!😂
How do they coordinate the power of the helpers with the lead unit? Is it done manually with radios or are the helpers controlled by the lead unit?
It can be done in both ways. When it’s done manual they would communicate with radio, when they are done in remote control it is all controlled by the main locomotive
In a situation like this I'd have 2 leaders and a DPU to ensure the load keeps moving. I'd rather have too much power than not enough. What's it hurt to burn a little more diesel fuel than to have to get sidelined waiting for another unit to arrive to assist w the move? And I say this for all trains.
Why would you try to ascend the mountain with just one locomotive? Sheer lunacy.
It was an empty train but still not a smart move.
If that was a siding, don’t know without a rail chart, or double main. Train masters are ultimate say on how many engines . But the two helpers on rear could have been there and he was allowing the second train to pass or the extra engines coupled later ?
It would seem like stall outs like this would be costly, can there really be that much of a + or - factor in figuring how much horsepower it would take the move x amount of weight through a given area !? Especially one travelled on a daily basis.
This is why steam locomotives are still in use
Why did they put one unit on the head end?
Norfolk 'ngood by the looks of it
What engine do they have up their on display now? I haven't been up their in over 20 years now. So I'm just curious.
They have PRR GP9 7048 on display at the curve now.
I told ya ya shoulda put in premium diesel instead o' regular! Maybe if we unplug the coffeemaker and the TV....
It would be nice to see 4014 take that grade. The sound would be awesome.
It can't it can't do the turn boiler would snap off
PSR fails again! A train delayed that wouldn't have stalled if helpers were assigned in Altoona!
Oops! That’s an expensive and time consuming mistake for a busy railroad.
Couldn't have happened to a better railroad