9mm vs 45 ACP Barrier Test: No Debate?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2024
- On this episode of Ultimate Barrier Testing, we will be comparing the performance of the 9mm Luger to the 45 ACP on 4 different targets. Each target is worth 25 points (winner takes all), for a grand total of 100 points. Whichever cartridge ends up with the highest score will be the winner. Tests 1-3 were setup at 10 yards and test 4 was setup at 5 feet. Thanks for watching!
9mm: P09
Tests 1-3: Win 147 gr FMJ-FN ~ 950 fps-295 ft/lbs
Test 4: 147 gr HST ~ 1,000 fps-326 ft/lbs
45 ACP: G21
Tests 1-3: Win 230 gr FMJ-FN ~ 850 fps-369 ft/lbs
Test 4: 230 gr HST ~ 890 fps-404 ft/lbs
*These tests are meant for entertainment and educational purposes only. Do not try any of these tests at home!
So many people have forgotten that the intent of the .45 ACP was to transmit as much ft/lbs of energy into the target WITHOUT passing through.
45 acp delivers all it's energy on target with less chance of collateral damage and is designed for 50 yards or less, that's what it was designed for, and still is, 9mm can be more accurate for targets more than 50 yards, but both have various types of hollow point and grain weights and both have+ p variation of bullets , and FMJ , but they will leave a hole 🕳️ where one was not before 🤔
Have worked in law enforcement, and
Some bad guys have taken 38 special and 9 mm more than 3 or more to stop
But one or two 45 acp or 357 magnums was enough especially when using a good hollow point and grain, still carry these caliber pistols, including 40 and 357 sig , but 9mm 147 grain hydra shok and 38 spl +p 129 grain hydra shok for back up, for my other options, and occasionally a 327 magnum, another one that delivers everything on target 🎯
Agreed ! The .45 acp was created for knockdown
Source, please.
@@mrbadguysan Ballistic and section data for cartridges and knowing Physics 101.
@@mrbadguysan us army testing
I’m not a .45 guy, but round #3, the concrete paver, definitely went to the .45.
Agreed, was clearly not a draw.
Several years ago on a program called Mail Call, with the famous Lee Ermey 2 watermelon hung from string and shot in from short distance, there was clear movement on the 45 impact on the watermelon versus the 9mm or was it a 40!! Point enough for me!! The 45 round was a proven combat round!!
Agreed, he's given the win to other cartridges for less.
WOW!!! That's good to know! You just never know when you might have to fight off an evil gang of concrete pavers!
(Does this need /sarc warning appended to it?)
PROOF -> the .45 has knock down power and that equates to
more time for the soldier to escape, regroup, re-engage.
I bet we can all agree that either of those rounds would ruin the recipient's day.
I'll take the one with the higher capacity
@@BryceCzirr-jz7ju Aaaaand less recoil for a quicker AIMED 2nd shot.
@@donaldcarey114 My 1911A1 is right on. Very little recoil but I don't carry. People that carry are looking for trouble!
@@dougcraft77 The 1911 was my T.O. weapon when I was on actie duty - as I posted, I prefer my 9mm Ruger.
@@donaldcarey114 Glad you got a Ruger. Glock is a piece of doo-doo. I really think this guy should bone up on some equipment to test bbl velocity and pressure. Normally, all his "stuff" is broke.
ok so the 9 went deeper in the wood, but you can see, definitively, the 45 unloaded a LOT more power into the concrete !
Thats because the 45 has significantly more energy. Just look at muzzle energy, which is mass times velocity squared. The 45 bullet has double the mass, and therefore more energy. P.S. I own a small ammo manufacturing company.
@@454Casul 👍👍
The .45 ACP also made a much bigger hole in the wood.
@@phillhuddleston9445 👍👍
@@phillhuddleston9445The .45acp made a bigger whole than the 9mm??? Who woulda thunk?
You didn't shoot The Lord's caliber out of The Lord's pistol the 1911. Tests invalid.
Exactly
Amen
Isn't that the Godhead's pistol? John Moses Browning is LDS afterall.
2 WORLD WARS
The 1911 is the GOAT.
What was not mentioned was the slo-mo on the rounds as they entered the gel. The .45 had a much larger expansion of the gel. Put in layman's terms, there is more internal damage with a .45 with less penetration.
That was showing the temporary wound cavity as it was going in. The permanent wound cavity is where it settles after it's all over. There is some debate over how important the temporary wound really is. Most people agree that the permanent cavity is more important.
I firmly believe that the 45 is much more reliable for a "one shot stop" against a living target, but I couldn't prove it from this test. I've been carrying 9mm lately because I love my little subcompact pistola. But I've always thought of the 9 as a barely adequate defensive cartridge. This makes me think it may be better than I've been giving it credit for. I was not at all surprised that the 9mm penetrated deeper. I was very surprised that the 45 didn't make leave a much larger permanent wound channel.
Tissue can stretch and deform a bit without being damaged. Temporary cavities from say 9mm and .45mm don’t do any real damage as that energy is consumed like a rubber band being stretched but not over stretched.
With rifle calibers going well over 2,000 fps that temporary wound cavity starts causing real damage but with 9mm and .45 only the permanent cavity really matters.
I have looked at different balistic tests using gel blocks and the ones using human type balistic targets(human torso) with different weapons. The blocks of gel will show penetration and the final wound channel, which is good if you want to show how far a bullet will go into a target. The other gel target shows the damage that is done to the human body. Personally I am old school and would prefer the one shot stop.@@mikegoodwin2386
I will agree that the permanent cavity is similar but everyone has their own opinion as to which will do more damage. I carried a .45 for a number of years because that was the duty weapon. Most comparisons now are using hollow points or hot ammunition. I would like to see a comparison using regular ball rounds.@@JeremiahPTTN
Mr. Spray, 100% fact!
No debating... 10mm is ballistically superior to both.
10mm, the AMERICAN mm
Basically? There's no debate about it its a big ol chunk of lead going pretty quick
9mm will sometimes penetrate deeper in some barriers than 10mm… just saying.
How dumb😮
I won't have a 10mm. It would disappear like everything else 10mm.
The debate between 9mm & .45acp.Will never end it all comes down to personal choice.
Well said. Nobody wants to be shot by any gun.
Yes Sir!!!😎👍
This is an instructive video... for people that get attacked by wood and concrete monsters.
So, why would you personally choose less rounds in your gun all else being equal.
Same with the whole 1911 v Glock debate.
Great video, love the entro. I’m 56 and have been shooting 45 since I was 10 (yes, born raised gun nut); never seen a 45 bounce off lumber.
I'm 64 and I've always been a 45acp nut too. I shot an oak board once with a FMJ with my 45acp and it bounced back about 50ft and hit my mobile home. It went through the siding. A few days went by and my wife asked what made the hole. I told her the weed eater threw a rock into it. That was 40 years ago and she still doesn't know what really happened.
@@williamwalker1277 👏👏😂👏👏
The reality is that the 9mm vs 45 ACP debate originated when full metal jacket "ball" ammo was all that was available. Hollow points were usually lead tipped, which were unreliable on the feed ramps of autoloader pistols. The thought process was do you want a pencil sized hole or a thumb sized hole in the bad guy. Today, bullet technology has advanced to the point that renders a lot of the debate a moot point. Federal HST is my "go to" ammo for everyday carry.
Exactly people don’t realize this. You explained it good.
"BuT BigGEr iS BettEr!"
"My 1911 won two world wars!"
"You can't be a man if you caliber doesn't start with a 4"
And here we are, carrying more rounds, more effective (I'll even take equally effective), cheaper, and more available. "Ok, Boomer" applies lol.
9x19 fmj rounds tend to tumble inside targets while .45 fmj rounds tend plough straight trough without destabilization. 9x19 rounds travel faster as well and while traveling sideway tumbling they dump way more energy than a forward facing .45 acp. Post ww2 soviet tests found out 7,62 tokarev and 9x19 fmj rounds to be slightly more effective than .45 acp fmj and 9x18 makarov prototype to be slightly inferior to all of them. Only advantage given to .45 acp fmj rounds was given to large bone hits where the damage was slightly increased compared to 9x19 or 7,62 tokarev. 9x19 and .45 are in the same band of performance even when using ball rounds (US army and FBI studies reported the same)
40 is the correct answer vs human sized questions
I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure 9mm also has had a lot of development from the old days while 45acp has pretty much stayed the same.
The .45 does a lot more damage to flesh and bone ....
Yes, as indicated by the live video, where we can see that the air pockets from the 45 ACP expanded about 4 times more than from the 9mm.
That part
I guess he’ll have to shoot some flesh and bone
No, it doesn't at all. Just more fuddlore.
Implying a good +P HP 9mm doesn't?
They're both good. The End.
I always think of it like this - Two different tools. Both shoot straight. One is a bit smaller for easier carry and more than gets the job done. The other is larger and will usually put more damage on the target. They both shoot straight. It's whatever you're comfortable with. Whatever you shoot better.
Nice ❤❤❤❤
@papermam9708 - Be careful using logic like that, it's foreign to most folks......
- IMO, this video was well done
- My 2 Cents on 9 vs 45: Admittedly my opinion is strictly based on reading & listening to what professionals in the field have to say (I've never used a firearm in a professional capacity) & hopefully 🤞some good sense.
My Conclusion: A real life situation will never provide the 'all things being equal', science experiment setting like this vid lays out so it seems to me that in a real life situation, shot placement will always win that damage derby.
9mm and .45 both suck. The End.
But I would agree that the caliber and pistol pick the owner, not the other way around. So many people pick out a firearm because its tact-i-cool vs pract-i-cal. Neither one of them are going to penetrate cheap Chinese body armor let alone some decent level 3 that can be had for super cheap nowadays.
Only nice thing about pistol ammo is you can carry a crap ton of it, and it won't way you down too much. But I am a large caliber dude only. 7.62 and shotgun. Will do the trick on any adversary / opposition I have to deal with that's not the terminator or robocop.
357 magnum much better
@@david29478 Revolvers are garbage.
I'm holding out for the 'how fast does it stop the 100k robot that is programmed to kill you " test.
projectile weapons will most likely
be effective only if certain spots are hit
and be capable of making it through some amount of armor.
I'm thinking a much more effective means will be a way to short circuit the machines electronics
by some means of exposing it to
high voltage surge.
Big take away IMO. 9mm vs .45 is not a deal breaker or major enough difference to switch. Whichever you have of the 2 is basically equivalent and if you need more than what 1 of them can do, you need a rifle. Shot placement is more important than differences between handgun caliber ballistics and whichever you shoot best and have a gun with enough capacity for the scenario will give basically the same results. TLDR don't need to worry 9mm vs .45 as long as you shoot it well and don't run out of bullets before you're done handling business.
There isn't enough real world ballistic evidence to justify one over the other. Shot placement trumps caliber every time.
More people die from a .22 every year in the U. S. than any other caliber.
I know, I know .... probably suicides. But facts are facts.
If you shoot someone in the arm it's not going to be fatal usally. Until it's a 50 cal, then there is no arm...@@burningsporkdeath
.45acp IS a better round overall but 9mm ammo and it's ballistics and technology today make it far superior than it used to be. I stopped carrying a .40cal and went to 9mm a long time ago. Along with a backup.38/.357magnum revolver just in case. BUT, something I learned while serving in the infantry in the Army was it's more about shot placement than caliber size. You hit a man in the head or something vital on them with a round, 9mm or .22lr or .45acp, etc, chances are your enemy target is going down.
You should try 10mm. Buffalo bore or underwood ammo. That would be cool
Yeah, I'd like to see 10 mm vs .45 ACP. 10 mm seems to be a savage semiautomatic pistol round.
Underwood 10MM AUTO 140GR. XTREME PENETRATOR®
10mm Federal HST 200 grain
Buffalo Bore is one of the few that put actual 700ft lbs 10mm ammo out most is watered down 40cal in 10mm case
@@timjohnson8390Buffalo Bore has been hot loading the .40 S&W for years to almost 10MM levels, it's for one to decide how badly they want to punish their handgun and wrist😂😂
Interesting view of the lumber penetration shots. The 9mm appears to essentially have sliced through deeper, but the .45 has a much wider path of broken fibers. Federal HST is excellent ammo in pretty much every caliber. That .45 HST, with it's much larger expansion, had to cut more gel to its destination than the smaller 9mm. A couple of things to consider.
Nothing to consider. If either go through your heart, dead. If either go through your lung, you have a hole in your lung, not dead.
I think he's trying to say 45 has a better chance at hitting vitals like heart, spine, CNS, etc... simply due to it's size.
Personally I don't use subsonic ammo for defense so 45acp is out of the question. It's fun to shoot range steel with a Suppressed 45, but that's about it.
A bigger hole is going to cause more leakage, and a .45 starts out almost as big as the 9mm is going to expand.
When you use a .45 that expands at its lower velocity, it's still going to be bigger than that 9mm.
If you use the argument that a head, heart, etc., shot means death (which it doesn't), then why not use a .22 LR?
10mm is far too powerful (and like it or not, it's on the same level as a .357 magnum) as a defensive round where you may not want to perforate five or six walls (or bystanders) after it passes through your intended target.
22 is not reliable and doesn’t have enough to get through bones and still penetrate vitals. You can get shot in the head and be fine, not so with your heart. Talk to an ER surgeon or gets some real experience and education.
@@HWG-wm8ld There are reliable .22's and good ammo has been found pretty reliable, see Lucky Gunner's video, for example. People have emptied pistols in their hands despite taking shots in the heart (there was that one cop story about .357 magnum in the heart not stopping right away). Also see all the deer and game that have run a bit after being hit in the heart.
I don't believe for a second that a full power .45 ACP bounced off a piece of wood.
A chunk of the wood may have flown back, but not the bullet, unless it was a squib round.
The idea a full power round would bounce off wood confused me and sounded like one of "those" stories from "that" guy. We all know which one because we all have one in our lives. Bounce. Ha. Crazy talk.
@@TheActionBastard same "that guy" that my friend was just telling me about who claimed he saw a guy get shot in the head with a .22LR and it just "bounced off" his forehead.
There are a few really hard woods out there, but it is unlikely anyone would be using them as a target. Most people shoot at construction lumber like pine, fir, etc, and hard to believe a bullet would bounce off that, unless maybe a huge knot was hit.
It’s just clown talk I had some yahoo tell me that a heavy leather jacket would stop a 45 acp.
@@Tarbashh
I could believe that it skipped off at an angle. I have seen it a couple of times including with a 9mm. The 9mm hit the guy in the back of the head, stayed under the skin and followed the skull around to the front of his forehead. Instead of penetrating the skull, the round followed it in a curve from the back to the front.
Great video. I see the 9mm and .45 ACP as two separate tools in a tool box. Own both and have carried both as service sidearms.
yes one is a waste of time and takes up too much room for more ammo and doesn't penetrate as much. 😂👌
I was a Navy Gunners Mate & we used the Colt 1911A1 .45 pistols. I have used 9mm pistols.
The .45 acp is superior.
i will say, one of the perks with .45 acp is that it's usually subsonic, so if you're running a can, it's quite quiet!
If you want Subsonic gun, get a 300 blackout. Sub 45 is weak af. While sub 300 hits like super 45.
@BryceCzirr-jz7ju with subsonic you are limited on speed, so only weight matters. Most subsonic 300blk is 220gr. there might be heavier, but that's what you'll typically find. Most 45acp is 230gr, so it will actually be slightly more powerful than your typical subsonic 300blk round. Granted, the 300blk is more aerodynamic, so it won't take too much distance before 300blk has the advantage in ft/lbs of energy.
@@BryceCzirr-jz7juget both, 300blk and 45acp have a powder that is sharable
negative, 9mm subsonic with can is 100% quieter. Wider barrel hole = louder noise. Learned this with big bore air rifles.
@@Juss-Saiyan i feel like you're missing the fact that i said *most* .45acp, but that's interesting to know! makes sense tho!
I think the 45 won on cement. It destroyed that cement better. Left the jacket and lead in perfect shape.
I think you’re also forgetting that the 45 was meant to be slower in order to dump power inside the body.
But isnt that gel test there to prove even that aspect is bit of obsolete.
Today 45 doesnt offer much of benefit compared to 9mm.
If anything else then it is easier to supress because by default it is subsonic.
Except it doesn’t. It’s been proven many times through many tests done by everyone from TH-camrs to government agencies. There really is no advantage to .45 over 9mm
Actually .45 was chosen because of parts commonality (projectiles common with .45lc) and it starts with a bigger hole when rules say you can't have hollow points/soft points.
@@Kesssulimy brother in Christ, + P
We are basically saying the same thing. @@wisewhiterabbit
HST is excellent. Good stuff. Thank you
Federal HST 124 grain +P JHP!! Say no more!!!👍👍
I very much appreciate the steel work! Making your own holders, sleds, protective screens, etc is the inventive aspect I like, and thus avoids the influence of sponsors' demands using their products.
Round 3 wasn’t a draw. The .45 was far more impressive. Are your sunglasses too dark to see through? 😂
Your channels just keeps getting better and better. I Hope you win the award.
I don't understand why everyone uses 230 grn to compare to 9mm. Use atleast 185 grn.
because 230 is the most common, so is 115/124gr 9mm, not sure why he used 147's
@@dsxz yeah, I know it's the most common but what i meant was it shouldn't be because it was designed in 230 for ball ammo in military applications. In self defense the hollow points mostly suck because of the slow speeds of 230. 185 should be the most common.
Consider the impact/energy situation. One hit with a 230 grain. 45 bullet, or TWO hits with 115 grain (The most common 9mm) bullets. I'm aware it's not a level trade, but consider. Someone drops a 1/4 pound rock on you, or they drop a 1/2 pound rock on you. Which one hurts more and does more damage?
By the end of the day, it all comes to shot placements
Shot placement when the target is shooting back is a myth, or at least an accident, at best. I've seen a plenty of real life videos showing close range gunfights between cops and bad guys, 50-60+ shots fired on both sides, and not a single hit to anyone.
And human targets are not going to stand still like a paper target at the range. So there goes shot placement out the door
@@dalepres1 "Shot placement" matters but not in the way you think, recently a young man was in an armed self defense situation where he struck an armed woman in the stomach and the leg and she fired back and killed him with a lucky shot.
Getting hit in the leg or the gut didn't stop the woman from shooting back, "shot placement" basically amounts to "accuracy by volume" to ensure at least one or two of the shots puts the opponent down as fast as possible.
And I'd rather have 17 rnds of 9mm versus 8 of a .45ACP
@@dalepres1 like the cop that got hit with an acorn 🌰 and emptied both mags at the target and missed every shot on a non moving target handcuffed in a car 😂😂😂.
Shot placement is a myth
@@radiohobbyist13 Bullshit.
The 45 won the Concrete block challenge hands down.
Bullet grain weights very by a few 10ths of a grain all the time. This is why benchrest shooters weigh the projectiles before reloading. A box of .270 150gn projectiles will range from 148 - 155. Better manufacturers have tighter tolerance, but they are never all the same.
I’m glad we all still look to FBI standards for things like this…because, you know, the FBI makes such sound decisions on guns
Interesting how you changed your grading criteria to favor the 9 mm. When looking at the wound cavity you only looked at one angle. A projectile that expands more creates a larger wound cavity. Do .357 vs 10 mm that's what we want to see.
That would be good since many compare 10mm to the old .41 Magnum in power.
10mm in certain loadings is respectable but does not reach 41 magnum numbers. 357 magnum, 357 Sig and 10mm are more suitable roommates.😂. Have a blessed day!
not true...speed also plays a big role... cavitation is real thing...
No...that's Coke...."it's the real thing!" 😂@@dsxz
@@BogstersBanters Coca-Cola is anti-2nd Amendment.
Super great testing. I tested 9mm vs 45 ACP with cement lap siding (8 1/4 wide) layered tgem together 45 went through 2 and mushrooms the back big-time of 3&4 layers. 9mm went through 5 or so and less mushroomin/ deformations of cement panels. 45 packs a punch thow
Shot 6x6s w 9mm FMJ w no pass thru using 1/4" Hardi laid flat against wood. But w/o Hardi it passed thru 6x6 in FMJ or JHP. Didn't find bullet in earth backstop half the time either. I'd keep 45 in my bedroom if I didn't live alone tho.
As someone that has used both in actual shooting incidents i can tell you that after two "kill" shots with a 9MM we found the guy two days later in an abandoned house. He lived for a week. Once cleared to return to duty I qualified on and only carried a .45 ACP from then on. I have also served you all for 21 years and did five tour in SW Asia. Every first shot from my M9 was never fatal and 95% of my second were not. I am an expert shot. Period. I will give you the fact we were using ball ammo but cmon
During training saw a man hitb9 times with 9mm, he slowly fell asleep from blood loss. Spent time with coroner and he said 45 and 357 caused much more damage to tissue that was far more deadly but he also said 12 gauge was a hamburger maker!
Another test that would be cool to see is 9mm vs 38Special. Load data shows they are nearly identical, and you CAN exchange the bullets when loading with there being a slightly tighter fit if using the 38Special in a 9mm. The 9mm (.355) also engages the rifling in a .357 barrel. This is where some smart guy pipes up and says "Never use the wrong ammo in your gun!" and that's true! I'd love to see somebody stuff a .38Special into the breach of a 9mm. You probably COULD hammer the slide shut.
9mm is a high pressure round and 38 is not. They are not close ballistically.
@@raytrammell9452 First off we're talking about bullets not cartridges. 9mm is actually .355" and you can easily hand load the .357" bullets into a 9mm casing and they will fire with no problems down a 9mm. I've had plated bullets for 9mm that are .357", and some 9mm bullets are actually .356". That 2thou easily rams down the barrel. Berry's plated bullets are almost always oversized a tad but it doesn't hurt anything. The bullet stretches out the little it needs. You can also hand load a .355" (9mm) into a .357 casing and it will engage the rifling of a .357 barrel but it's a tad sloppy. Again though we are talking about bullets not cartridges. There are several articles online about swapping them out on the loading bench. The only problem I had when using a 9mm in my 38special was the bullet wanted to drop down into the casing, I had to squeeze the casing a tad to hold the bullet until I crimped it in the press.
@@raytrammell9452 No worries you were nice about it. ;)
I have a friend who was the sheriff that said they did a test on .45 and 9mm with his team. He said that 9mm was consistently better at penetrating window shields like an ice pick, while the .45 had issues glancing off at times.
I lived in a auto salvage yard. 45 and 357 reliably penetrated windshields. 9mm reliably ricocheted off. 10's of windshields tested. Window rolling mechanism in 70's American cars are reliable stoppers of all handgun rounds.
@@varieze117pj7 lol, that is awesome ! Your personal gun range. Bet you got some good stories
Nothing to do with guns, but I witnessed damage from a huge hail storm in El Paso. In the 90s. Two mid 60s Dodge Chargers with HUGE rear fastback windows were parked in a private lot. Newer cars were in the same lot. The thick glass in the Chargers got no damage. Many windshields and rear windows in imports and newer American cars were not only cracked, but completely smashed out! Not sure exactly when they began making auto glass thinner.
I do know it was sometime in the 70s when sheet metal on cars bacame thinner. There was a hail storm in Harrison, AR in which the olders cars had little to no damage, and the newer ones got beat up bad.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in the gelatin the .45 seemed to have a much larger wound channel upon impact, which I believe would create significant trauma for the recipient, vs the 9mm.
@@funnypositivelife9230 So, you're saying the larger hole and greater body shock of the .45 was of no consequence?
@@GH-cp9wcit's like comparing getting hit by a Ford ranger going 55mph to getting hit by a F150 doing 40 mph. Are you gonna be more dead?
@@jerrycopeland5088 My point exactly. Thanks!
Ballisticly speaking, both cartridges are in the same power class. What the 9mm accomplishes with velocity, the 45 ACP with mass. Otherwise they are pretty much equal.
y but you can have almost up to 3 times more rounds of 9mm in same size pistol, magazine... .45 is just obsolete for combat, self defense
@@Hijackerrr Nah, and this is coming from a dude that likes the 9mm, the .45 is the better self-defense round because it is far less likely to overpenetrate. The 9 is a bit more likely to overpenetrate because it's faster with a smaller cross-section. .45 for home defense, 9mm for CCW. 10mm if you're backpacking.
@@1994chocolatemilk if is fmj used on that yes for both of rounds xtp and other types of rounds not likely neither of them
@@Hijackerrr Old does not mean obsolete, as for the need for more rounds, learn to shoot more accurately.
That's the way i see it too; Those three calibers all fit well to those situations. People tend to not be aware of the energy transfer difference of .45 vis a vis 9mm. That said, you better pick the correct .45 hollow points or you are gambling due to low velocity. @@1994chocolatemilk
I am a .45 person. I have owned, and carried both caliber firearms. The 9mm cartridge has been improved, but this old retired cop still bets his safety on the .45ACP. The 40 caliber round was invented to be more effective than the 9mm following a famous FBI shoot-out. The 9mm is basically a 38 special cartridge. I feel the U.S. military's use of the .45 through 2 world wars, Korea and Vietnam succesfully is enough proof for me.
It’s time to educate!! There is a 45 Super which is a high performance 45ACP and 185gr has a velocity of 1,300 FPS and around 700lbs of force. I don’t know of any 9mm cartridge that can come close to that performance! The 45 Super also dumps all of its energy in less then 12 inches
The 45 absolutely owns the 9mm in suppressed shooting. Otherwise, the 9mm high velocity evens out the huge 45 hollow point. So it comes down to capacity and the speed of follow-up shots.. which 9mm clearly wins. It's all about Purpose Of Use.
modern ammo is awesome! but there are some nasty +p .45 out there that can create havoc really. It's all about ammo selection, handgun selection, follow up shots and shot placement as you said. I would go with 9mm for defense, although I love the old 45
And when you go on your James Bond missions with your silencer, do ask for a martini or bud light?
@HWG-wm8ld I'm more of a gin & tonic man 😉 but for suppressed, my choice would be the FN545.. 😉
Try your Ballistics gel test with some denim in front of the gel unless you plan on shooting a naked target. I believe that the results will NOT mirror what you registered.
Humans are not ballistic gel either.
Both fine choices
lovin the HSTs.... thats all I carry and practice with. You made that a fun video. Nice job!
Would love to see more clear gel tests!!
This is a penetration test. Not a kinetic energy test. Otherwise the 45acp has better stopping power by far. The cinder blocks show that clearly
Stopping power? You either hit something vital or they don’t stop.
exactly. Non vital shot with a 45 won't kill but a vital shot with a 22lr with kill. @@HWG-wm8ld
I have both calibers and love them both so not bias ... but this test was just more for fun. Obviously the faster narrower 9mm will penetrate wood deeper ...but come on the .45 smashed the concrete and the 9mm broke off a chunk ...so clearly not a drew there. LOL
The point was whether the rounds did any damage to the 3/4-inch plywood (i.e. bad guy). Neither did. It's a draw.
I was going to say that if you're not using Crit Duty or some version of that high tech bonded led/copper thing, then there'll be more questions. They may make a 9mm as good as the old jacketed .45acp BUT then if you use the bonded in the .45 then we're back to .45 better. The 9 needs to be +P too....and 20 9mm rounds vs 10 .45...maybe 16 .45acp. Hell I don't know.
I just know that ten .45s pulls my pants down...and not in a good way.
Heavy loaded .357mag or mid loaded .44mag are the objectively superior combat handgun cartriges. Wheelgun shooters can actually hit what they're shooting at without "spraying". 😂
I agree with @philipstaite. Ammo diversity is a good thing. I conceal carry both calibers in todays video, and it depends on where I am going as to which pistol I carry. My general carry is a Glock 43X with 2ea Glock 10 round and Shield Arms S15 (15 round) mags. Yes I carry 51 rounds with me because you never know. My secondary carry is a SDS U.S. Army M1911A1 with 22 rounds. I carry my 45 when I know I am going to be mostly in more confined/short range shooting situations. The lessened degree of penetration of the 45 means less chance of me destroying/wounding someone I don't. Also the mass of the round and the faster energy dump equals a greater chance of knock down. Just imagine that 230grain (83 more that the 9) slapping something solid in your (or on your) body!
@Banana Ballistics
Now you have to test 9mm vs .40 S&W.
The 45 did a lot more damage to the cement block than the 9
Good if you are being attacked by a concrete block
@@HWG-wm8ldgood if the person attacking you is hiding behind a block wall. People use cover in gun fights...
How are they attacking you if they are hiding? You gonna take out a wall with all your ammo. Clueless
@HWG-wm8ld it's called fighting from cover. There's this thing called suppressing fire, fire superiority, and violence of action. Some bullets have the ability to turn cover into concealment more efficiently than others.
@@Kinetic.44 it still wouldnt have done nothing to the person, as you could see in the vid there was not a stratch on the plywood
I like both rounds today. But in the 1980s, this would have been a very different debate. While the 9 can certainly hang with the 45, because of modern ammo improvements, the 9 gives you much greater capacity in the same size weapon (i.e. 10+1 rds .45 in the G30 vs 15+1 rds of 9 in the G19).
I'm 53 & a Army veteran: 1990s. I saw the tragic FBI Platt Matix era, the rise of "wonder nines", the big push for 10mm, the short lived .357sig trend, 9-11/GWOT 🌏. Many fads & plans came, went. Overall: ballistics improved, the 9mm/9x19 slowly creeped back to the top of most duty, defense, ccw pistols.
I'm a 1911 guy. That concrete paver just reinforced that! Thanks for solidifying my choice for EDC!
I live in the big open windy AZ desert. 9mm is a great penetrator , but shoot 9mm out side on a windy day. 115grain bullets get blown down. 45 acp keeps trucking. I've never tried the 124 grain. Was at an ammo warehouse lately. They had lots of cheap 9mm,but a small amount of pricey 45acp.. good argument to have both.
308 Win and 277 FURY got stopped by the sand box. Next let's see if 9mil and 45acp will go through..
The answer is a rifle round is superior. A pistol is a backup weapon to keep you in the fight when your main battle rifle is down.
Not in CQB situations, such as home defense. Barrel might be too long, get slammed against doorways. This restricts your movement and reveals your position. Pistols are also easier to conceal.
@@darthzackariusnickthenamethede a rifle round is ALWAYS superior to a pistol round. A 10.5” pistol AR in 5.56 or 300blk is a fantastic home defense tool.
@@nathansummerville3972 Soooo a rifle is your everyday carry? What you say fits in a battlefield. But not everyday regular citizen personal defense. In fact I find your statement irrelevant and pointless. Of course a rifle is more powerful. No shit Sherlock. 🙄🤦🥱
@@garytrainer1690 thank you for making my point. I keep a rifle in every vehicle just in case. At home, I have rifles strategically placed. The sidearm keeps you in the fight until you can get to your rifle. I don’t understand what is so hard for you to understand?
9mm usually has a little bit better penetration, because it has so much more velocity and energy than the 45acp versus the 45’s weight. But of course, the 45 has a much larger wound cavity. I think that pretty much sums up the different animals here.
The 45 did not have a larger wound cavity in the video. It was smaller than the 9mm.
@Radvous no it was not smaller, that entry wound is always almost a half inch, no getting around that trauma and hemorrhaging.
Both deliver far more than enough trauma, but to say it's "bigger" is arguably not correct
@@Radvousthe 9mm has to expand so much just to equal the 45s entry wound, they both started to expand at the same distance upon entry, even if the 9mm expanded more, it has to expand more than that to make up that lost width it has from the 45
@cocomoomoo it's not always about the diameter of the bullet. A small bullet at a high velocity will cause wounds much bigger than the bullet diameter itself. That's why a 5.56 will have a larger, more devastating wound than the 45 acp. A 5.56 will have a larger wound than a 1" inch diameter steel rod driven very slowly into you. In the case of 9mm vs 45, the wounds are extremely similar because even though the 45 is larger, it is slower, and even though the 9mm is smaller, it is faster. It almost cancels each other out with these two rounds specifically.
@@Radvous 9mm isn't that much faster than 45acp tho 🤔
How about my .40 S&W round? 🤔
Funny and informative guy. Great channel. Subscribed.
I would like to see this test again performed out of a rifle barrel 16-18 inches. Several carbines available in each calibur.
Really enjoyed this episode. Great job 🤙🏼🇺🇸
Both calibers with a well made defensive round will do the trick. I have both and alternate between the two depending on how and where I am carrying.
remember bois its not length but the girth that matters and that 45 is a girthy boi
The 9 mm vs 45 ACP comparison is ridiculous. The only thing bigger on the 45 is the ego of the gun owner.
When comparing these 2 rounds. You have to remember that, 9mm is smaller, and travels faster, but has less stopping power due to the mass of the round. Where 45 acp travels slower, and has a larger mass. There for it has more stopping power. It is that simple to understand.
Speed is what causes power a small round traveling 300-400 feet per second more can have just as much power this is why a magnum round has so much power in the end it is about muzzle energy which the 9mm and .45 acp are about equal.
Glad to see a gel test added to your presentation
You and I definitely have a different definition of a draw. The 45 exploded the block and the 9 broke it, that’s not a draw. Or am I wrong here? And in that 6x6 block, the 9 penetrated deeper, but was I the only one the see the 45 left a much larger channel?
Those HST rounds are great and what I carry in both calibers. Either way, I don't want to be hit by either one. Sweet video.
You should test Liberty Ammunition, Civil Defense, in 9mm at 50 Gr at 2000FPS and 45 ACP at 78 Gr at 1900 FPS. I have done my own tests and this is the EDC ammo I have used for years in all my firearms!
Good video, by the way, and I would have given the 45 ACPHP the Gel the nod, though.
I'm not trying to tell you what to do, but something to consider. Lead is a soft metal, and even ricochet is moving considerably faster than you can shove a bullet through your shield. IF you have this issue, that lead is going to shave off, or squish through that mesh shield you have. If you feel safe after this consideration, do what you do, just know that I personally worry for your safety.
This Debate ENDED when the FBI did a study ( 2012 ) of 900 Agents and discovered that when in a stressful situation like a Gun battle, ALL of it's agents MISSED HALF of their shots when shooting. Since MORE Ammo was required BC of Missed shots...They changed ALL their Pistols to 9mm with LARGE capacity carry. So you can carry anything you want but IF you MISS HALF your shots...BETTER have as many rounds as you can.
They also found that terminally all were nearly identical and the projectile design mattered more than caliber combined with the issue of missing.
Sounds like the issue is their lack of skill with the gun and not the caliber. Sadly, most people who get paid to carry a gun don't actually train enough to be proficient and safe when they start shooting.
I don't know I'm still a 45 fan, looking at the high speed it seems like the temporary womb channel for the 45 is larger than the nine millimeter, one test you might want to try so you can try steel with these subcalibur carpetes is take a soft body armor put it over a 16th inch piece of sheet metal and look how big a dent it leaves we'll give you a graphic representation of just how much energy is transferred onto an individual. Using full metal jackets for both the nine millimeter and 45 you might be surprised. I've used them both while in the military and I can guarantee the 45 stops a lot better. It saved my backside many a times. Love your videos though have a nice day and a happy holiday season.
You were in a womb for nine months, possibly a lot shorter. A wound channel means nothing. Saved you how? Call of duty?
"Stopping power" is now as it has always been. A myth. A 45 and a 9mm, even in the military, are still pistol loads. Neither compare EVEN to the 556, let alone other rifles. With a pistol, shot placement is FAR more important than caliber, and that was even what we were trained, both mil AND LE. Because the truth is, a 45 isn't "stopping" a full grown man dead in his tracks any more than a 9mm will; it is all about what the round hits.
IDC if people like 45, go forth and conquer! But it is WELL past time that this is a true debate. Practical self defense loads that people carry make the 9mm objectively a better choice, because ballistically they do everything a 45 can with more capacity and flatter trajectory.
Temporary stretch is meaningless and has no effect. That's why it's called temporary.
For pistol you should add windshield glass.
I used to live in a auto salvage yard. 45 ACP and 357 Magnum reliably penetrate a windshield. 9mm often ricochets off.
@@varieze117pj7 damn you lived in a auto salvage yard?
That's interesting because I have heard the opposite said @@varieze117pj7
For ballistic gel I would recommend using full metal jacket bullets, since hollow point tend to slow down as they expand. Cheers. 🤟
This video is a fantastic illustration of how far 9mm defensive rounds have come. Ammo selection matters….a lot. The 9mm round was widely considered sub-par for a long time after larger police departments first started issuing them in the 80’s with 115 grain fmj rounds. I vividly remember reading about shooting in which a suspect was hit 20 or even 30 times and survived. That would not happen with the 147 grain HST. Outstanding defensive round!
I don't think the question or controversy was about penetration but more the power of impact. In other word which has more stopping power. Because if you're using them for self defense, you don't really care about penetration as much as you care about stopping or knock down ability.
No pistol caliber can "stop" or "knock down" an adversary. This is proven by Newton's third law of motion. The energy transmitted backwards to the weapon is equal to the energy transmitted by the bullet itself. In other words, you can't knock someone off their feet with a projectile from a pistol without getting knocked down by the recoil yourself.
@hb9145 it's a metaphor
@@risanch Cool, if one if writing literature. Take a look at FBI's Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, and you'll see that only shot placement (spinal cord or brain) can effectively and reliably stop en opponent. Furthermore, if the bullet has sufficient penetration, pistol caliber is more or less irrelevant, and shot placement is by far the most important - all according to the report.
@hb9145 OMG are you serious? do you understand the meaning of metaphor? I'm done. Have a wonderful day.
@@risanch I teach literature, and that is not what a metaphor is. "I'm locked and loaded" would be a metaphor. You just mentioned scientifically unsupported colloquial expressions that attempt to convey the idea of a caliber's ability to quickly incapacitate or stop a threat. Goodbye.
The debate has been over for a long time. 9mm today is good but can’t match the 45, which has more lbs. energy, wider obviously, and heavier. Why do people act like it’s even close… all dimensions favor the 45, except negligible penetration. The only advantage a 9mm has is less muzzle flip, and more capacity in general.
@daves8746 is exactly right! It was designed to stop the aggressor, cold. Additionally, the 45 ACP smoked the concrete block. It obviously delivered much more energy than the 9mm. Penetration isn't the game for self protection. It's about stopping power.
One thing that's obvious from the demonstration, if you ever get attacked by a small piece of concrete, both calibers will protect you.
Jesus Loves You All
Did you use fmj? Also underwood penetrators would have been cool.
Definitely in 10mm
Superior test! I love both. ❤ I do not feel that screen is safe tho. Those little shards... 😕 "You'll shoot your eye out." 🎄
I had to take a long hot shower after this one tho. I'm ready for the 10mm next.
At 0:06 I’m going to give my answer to the question, the answer is not a chance! This is 2023, people would rather die than compromise 😂🤣
I did 24 years in a patrol car, I carried many guns over that time, beginning with a Model 19 Smith in .357 Magnum, to a .Model 29 in .44 Magnum and several semi-auto's. When I settled down I did so with a .45 ACP carried in an Astra Model 100 10 shot DA semi-auto and off duty a cut down M1911A1 in .45 ACP. From all the shootings I saw over the years the .45 seemed to outshoot the 9mm overall and most could well have ended after 6 to 8 shots. Just my experience, I saw some folk in a world of hurt when gut shot with a .22LR others walking away with a .45 hole in them. Depends on shot placement and sometimes on clothing worn, I worked in an area where sub zero temps are common in winter months and heavy clothing are worn by all so in winter I loaded FMJ 230 grain milspec.
You should maybe wrap your "shield" in some metal "pet rated" screen material like they use for pool enclosure and screen doors. It won't stop a direct shot, but it will absolutely slow down any potential ricochet and it should completely stop MOST splashback/flying debris/ jacket pieces/ lead fragments etc...
I mean, you can get 9mm to beat .45acp in all catagories and vice versa... it all depends on load selection. (But I still enjoy these videos)
@BuckeyeBallistics I agree.
No, what matters is where it hits.
Penetration is not why one would prefer one over the other. Terminal ballistics is the basis. The 9 will out penetrate the .45 but will not match its terminal ballistics. If you use JHP's, you will lose penetration
The only advantage 9mm has is that you can load more in a smaller space. Realistically it doesn't penetrate any deeper than 45 because penetration only counts on an armored target. As there is no body armor that stops 45 that doesn't stop 9mm penetration doesn't even matter.
45 being naturally subsonic however is a huge advantage for shooting suppressed.
Penetration is the most important aspect of terminal ballistics. You can see in this test the 9mmJHP penetrated better than the .45JHP. The 9mm also left a PERMANENT wound channel just as big as the .45.
@@joshrandall3632 All this says is that is a bad .45 load.
@@joshrandall3632 Half an inch. If there's one thing I've learned from women. Is that half an inch counts for nothing It's either big or it's small they don't care about the half inch.
@@joshrandall3632 The penetration differences, however slight, are meaningless. Once you've penetrated enough, further penetration doesn't change the result in a significant way, even with hollow points or ignoring the greater risk of over penetration with the 9mm. What the .45 brings to the picture is a higher likelihood of knocking the bad guy down and, even if he's not completely stopped (though statistics suggest he would most likely be), interrupting the attack and giving you time for appropriate follow-up. In another video on TH-cam, a commenter tells the story that he, himself, was in a shootout where he hit a drugged-up bad guy 4 times in the heart with a .380 and the bad guy still wasn't stopped and I certainly have no reason to doubt the claim by a guy that he shot someone in defense of his family. And, yes, I realize that the .380 ACP (9mm Kurz) isn't the same as a 9mm Parabellum but it is a great example of why you very often need more than just shot placement; sometimes, oftentimes, you just really need some kick-ass knockdown power. According to the FBI, the .45 ACP gives you all you need in penetration and, though there's never a guarantee of single-hit knockdown, it gives a greater chance of getting that knockdown when you need it.
I absolutely love this content! Please!!! Keep going! You're to< the point, funny, intelligent, and ⁷I've watched ALL your content!
My generation says .45 ACP is a man's cartridge. The 9mm is a good lady's round.
I would suggest testing what archery “arrows” would do in comparison to bullet penetration! The results will be surprising! Especially in the sand barrier! In that case you might want to take a bow to gun fight! Thanks for creating such informative content!
That
The bullet is vastly superiour in most situations, even pistol bullets !
@@niclasjohansson4333 yes you’re right! Except the arrow will penetrate the sand much better than most bullets!
Sand yes, and water in liquid form, in any other "matters" the bullet will do a lot more damage, and penetrate a lot more.....@@weldonhudson5535
I heard of a demonstration of some early bulletproof vests in which police officers were invited to bring their weapon of choice to test. One guy brought a bow and arrow, and it went all the way through the vest.
If the gel blocks are free to slide, wouldn't that reduce penetration?
Although I'm a 9mm fan and don't like .45 in general, I would consider the last test drawish either. The difference is too small to matter.
The clear win for 9mm then comes for me with ease of shooting, mag capacity and cost.
This dude's voice is lower than my self-esteem after my divorce. Good content though, lol.
This has already been studied comprehensively.
Look up the 2017 joint agency ballistic study on handgun ammunition.
A 45ACP, creates 60% more tissue damage in it's wound channeling then a 9mm, you have to take the the surface area of the bullet and times it by the depth.
This has been repeated over and over, a 9mm doesn't get anywhere near the wound channel results of a 45.
And for those that think 10mm is superior, it's actually the opposite.
these studies showed that fast hollow point rounds in 357 magnum and 10 mm did worse in the outcomes, because the high speeds caused the bullets to fragment and break apart affecting their ability to cause permanent wound channeling the way they should.
Using hard cast bullets in these calibers as a woods gun is a different story, but when it comes to jacket at hollow points, they're problematic.
As far as ballistic gel, wound channel in gel is irrelevant, it has no relation whatsoever with living elastic tissue that is compressible.
the only purpose of gel is to provide a comparison as a baseline for certain testing, but it is in no way representative of the human body.
Clear ballistic gel is even worse, and it is not calibrated properly for the FBI protocol.
it has to be organic Gel kept for a certain temperature and then it has to be calibrated with a bb gun.
In fact,
in these studies, the only caliber that consistently performed in every category, including penetrationand still providesd permanent wound channeling effectively,
was the 45ACP, the heavier weight and mass of the bullet plays a major role.
This is a complicated topic, and TH-cam videos are fun, but these experiments are far from scientific and if you really want to know the data you can research it.
I read somewhere German said shoot him twice with the 9. The americans said shoot him once with the forty five
👍🏻💯🇧🇷🙏
Great work, very informative and entertaining. However I doubt this or any video will ever end the debate. Both have their backers and their detractors, and there are a number of other rounds with their own fan base and haters. For the faithful, no-one is going to convince them otherwise, in any direction.
The real takeaway is, both are really good (as are a number of other options). Each has their *relative* strengths and weaknesses as compared to others, and we're fortunate to have the options so we can pick the one that scratches our itch just right ... or even have different rounds for different uses - celebrate diversity and such. ;-)
Really appreciate all youre test data. Would you consider for the future including 16" PCC as many of us are moving in that direction-- sure i have a 5.,56 carbine but i find it would be a poor choice for in home engagement in the middle of the nite- BLINDING & DEAFENING! I'm now keeping a Ruger 9PCC with light & laser,carrying 32rnd glock mag & +p+ buffalo bore, whatta ya think? THANKS
Had feed issues w 33rd OEM mags, spring tension?? But 24rd OEM run flawless and look better IMHO. Keep ya powder dry!
Dear mr. WAD- Thank you for the heads up -- and you are spot on ! First i test all my mags fo reliability & load 1 or 2 short of max to avoid binding-- and then there's the ammo , i choose 124s +p or +p+ , for 14-1600 fps - this being 357 level of performance. It's all about due diligence 'eh. Hence underwood- buffalo bore- gold dot&HST +Ps. The new NATO 1152 screams out of a 16"
Dick Fairburn addressed some of this in one of his recent videos. Auto glass will shred any projectile you send through it. The phrase “more lead to spread” is very relevant.
45 for a house gun to avoid whatever over penetration you can
Not true
If you want to minimize over penetration a 556 ar is the best choice.
The concrete test was not a draw! Definitely went to the.45!