I wrote a version of Unix for my atari ste in a combination of assembler and cross-compiled C back about 1990(?) before I got distracted and wrote STe Bombaman.. Sure its probably all on a SCSI disk in my garage along with the ICD and all the other hardware I had. Really must get around to sorting it all out one day, maybe when I retire in a few years... Recall considering using ColdFire back in the day but decided to go full PowerPC and rewrite all the assembler code.. Then went switched and went to Strongarm.. Been a great time the last 40 years being into all this as a hobby and as a career..
Thanks! FreeMINT On Amiga 600 with Apollo Vampire 2 th-cam.com/video/4SsFIUPo31I/w-d-xo.html Vampire Gold 2.9 ATARI mode test th-cam.com/video/1s2dqeKb4EA/w-d-xo.html
I used a Mega STe from 1992-97. I cross-compiled my own MiNT kernel to get started with it, and then compiled the kernel on my STe, thereafter, using GCC. I finally moved on to Windows in '97, and later to the Mac. This is a great primer on what's up with modern STs. I've seen videos of ST users multitasking GEM programs, using flatscreen monitors, and SD cards for storage, on non-Falcon STs. I've wondered how they did it. This explains it.
IN FreeMiNT you can also yse a X11 Unix server! It is called X11-GemServer, in which you can run some low ressource Linux software as a clock.. I test it on a Falcon many years ago, it was very slow but it worked.
Well, this presentation gives us view of one circle, among Atari ST and followers users. Sadly, I had problems to understand clearly spoken in some cases. But I have picture what Vincent wants to say. Now, maybe I should make some presentation for YT, with my view of OS for Atari ST and followers, and I will do it probably. So, first problem here is about 'free' . This is not PC without OS. You bought Atari ST, TT, whatever with TOS in ROM. So, you paid for OS too. Of course, that prevents not you to use some other TOS on that HW. And what happened ? Things are that most popular among all alternative OS-es for Atari family was MagiC - what is not free SW. What can mean only one thing: people want to pay if they think that it is worth. No, I'm not against free SW, free OS. Use Linux over 20 years. And it made really nice progress in that time. I used Mint, tested some SW on EmuTOS. Must say that my experiences are bad. Especially with EmuTOS - when some SW fails with more that 60% of SW, what you try on it, what can think ... Then, it is little absurd to so accent free SW, while it is used mostly by people, which bought some expensive clones, are expensiver Ataris. Yep - Mint is not for ST, slow even on Falcon. EmuTOS ? Really, is someone of ST(E) users using it ? I doubt. I hear only negative comments about not running SW. I know why it is so low compatible, btw. , but will not go in it here. Most important in all this is that it is simply bad idea to force some modern OS for very old and limited HW. What can be made little faster, little better graph. etc. - but for lot of money. Free SW for expensive HW ? Huh ! Today Internet is slow even on 2GHz PC with 1GB RAM. Not because WIn is crap. It's just that content is for people with newer HW. So, EmuTOS is done because TOS is still not free ? That's hard do accept. TOS is actually free, as nobody cares for it's copyright. Even it it would be not truth, there are millions of legal copies around. Not used anymore in not used STs. I think that real reason is something other: challenge - we can do it. Maybe we can do it better. That's all nice. But what about SW compatibility, speed ? As it is, I think that only real benefit of EmuTOS is that it can work on Amiga. Personally, I would like to see something new as original (in way of work, usage) OS on ST. Who would not ? But that's just enormous work, for limited count of people, on old, slow HW. Price is too high, while people wants mostly to run reliably and comfortable old SW. What is really useful are TOS patches, improvements. My opinion. Finally - we have saying 'dead letter on paper' - I don't know how good sounds it in English, but that's is non-free state of TOS. Who cares ? It is paid, people done it got his money. Nobody steals anything. + they maybe should do better documentation of TOS, then it would be easier for SW authors in 80-es, and even for EmuTOS people. That would be case of missing letter on paper :-)
I don't think that Vincent means free as in beer, I'm almost certain that he means free as in libre. This means that the source code is available to the users so that they can study, modify and publish changed versions of the software.
Don't see that it changes things. Free source code is of course nice thing, for those who have time, knowledge, and most important motivation and will to deal with. Things are that most of computer users is not capable for even much less complex things. Computer OS is really large work. Even something short for today standards, as TOS is. And, if they want attract people to join their projects - what is maybe aim of this presentation, maybe there are better ways for it. I had some mailing with in that time main man for Mint project. That went not well. He was actually arrogant, and refused without thinking my error report, what I explained well. Most of people will stay rather solo, that join team which dictates some things. And sadly, EmuTOS forces attitude 'only documented behavior, features in EmuTOS' . Did they follow TOS history properly at all ? Are they aware how TOS docs are missing lot of things, details ? The reason why there is so much TOS version compatibility problem is right in poor documentation. OK, truth is that even myself was not aware completely about it until last couple years. In short, if I wanted to make new, TOS compatible OS , which should perform all TOS function calls as original, so basically what EmuTOS claims (and fails in it big part) , I would not join team with bad basic idea. Then, I would need some serious time to spend to 'construct' missing parts of TOS documentation. That is now easier, because we have diverse TOS docs around, more complete than Atari's original ones. But it is still not good enough. Only way is to test behavior of functions, in some case trace them with debugger, and then conclude what is proper behavior. Not theory. Joystick input function is one, what is not explained well in all available docs. Even STOS, done by good programmer suffers from bad input handle solution. Finally: do we really need new TOS for old Ataris ? I think that TOS self is not bad, and we now can go straight on later versions. What makes more problems than TOS is SW for it. Partially because not so good programmers, and partially because bad docs. So, some people is maybe focused in fixing old SW rather than TOS. You might guessed it: I'm one of, who does it. Wait ... not only it. Actually I finishing my TOS fix, update this weeks. atari.8bitchip.info/tos105.html
The event was called "foss-north", where FOSS means "Free/Libre Open Source Software". This is why I focused on such software for the Atari ST, based on my own history and point of view. Jeena is right. When I say Free, I mean Free Software (Libre), as defined by Richard Stallman and the FSF. Main point is Freedom, not Money. About EmuTOS: yes, it exists because Atari TOS is not Free/Libre Software. Otherwise EmuTOS people would have extended Atari TOS. The EmuTOS Development Team cares about Freedom and legal issues, this is the #1 concern. Just like GNU/Linux, people are Free to use EmuTOS, or not use it at all, or just use it sometimes.
Yes, that's all correct Vincent. Sorry for my partially off-topic comment, but I don't think that most of people cares about all it much. And we all know that we are free to use, not, or whatever. What I'm concerned is quality and usability of SW. Will it be free or not - that may depend from many factors. And just came in, how many of developers, maintainers, who offer something free still have notifications, formulars for taking financial aid. And some people like to appreciate that way. There is lot of talented people around, who could work on free SW, but they are not able, because they must spend most of time at workplace, with family and like. I have now more free time than 30-20 years ago. That's why I did lot of free stuff for Atari community, and even for some other oldie. It was simply not possible while I had 60 hours/week work. Then, you really think that in today World, people cares much about legal issues of SW, movies, music ? What I see is that so called free market is just a lie. My city downtown is full with abandoned shops, because normal shops simply can not pay it anymore (and I'm not in Tokyo, prices here are much lower). Most what works are banks, optical stuff (extremely overpriced glasses for instance) and like. Those, who have very large profit. Even cellar phone companies moved from downtown. Most of workers are school girls/boys in shops. Ah, and don't forget advocates - they charge for 1 hour what normal worker earns in 1-2 days. So, I will keep my freedom of my mind, and will say that most of copyright for older SW is pure nonsense. And practice proves it, as I said already couple times. Those, who won't make it free, like some game companies just care only for money, and are even lazy to spend half hour for simple declaration. Things are better with some other platforms. Most funny is how there are some sites of game companies, and they offer older games for DL - and what will see there in most cases ? Pirate versions :-) Sorry, we did not preserve it. Of course not. In fact, not much people expected that there will be interest for old SW as is now. OK,, this gone too long. I hope, you got my points.
This looks like it would have been a very interesting presentation. Unfortunately I am struggling to understanding your English - I mean no offence as I am quite sure your English is far better than my French.
Très intéressant. Mais pourquoi continuer à supporter ce matériel obsolète et ce système tant comparable à Window ? Le Falcon à été trop long à venir et à déjà introduit des incompatibilités. Les clones et systèmes alternatifs encore plus. Et ne parlons pas du coldfire. En parallèle, avec Mint, c'est une bascule dans le monde Unix. C'était intéressant dans les années 90, mais depuis seul importe Unix et le matériel récent, en terme de coût performance compatibilité durabilité. Je respecte profondément la ferveur des utilisateurs Atari et Amiga. Juste pourquoi ne pas accepter le deuil et rejoindre le rang de l'histoire ? Où trouvez-vous encore la force de poursuivre cette aventure ?
Nous pouvons tout faire avec de vielle machine La preuve En 2020 un banc de puissance branché sur un atari st qui fait le même travail qu un PC a 450 euro et qui bug tout les 5 minutes . C est une machine très fiable , pas besoin de plus pour certaines applications. Heureusement qu il reste des personnes comme lui pour continuer cette aventure Mais bon chacun son opinion Amicalement
I wrote a version of Unix for my atari ste in a combination of assembler and cross-compiled C back about 1990(?) before I got distracted and wrote STe Bombaman.. Sure its probably all on a SCSI disk in my garage along with the ICD and all the other hardware I had. Really must get around to sorting it all out one day, maybe when I retire in a few years...
Recall considering using ColdFire back in the day but decided to go full PowerPC and rewrite all the assembler code.. Then went switched and went to Strongarm.. Been a great time the last 40 years being into all this as a hobby and as a career..
English and French subtitles are now available.
Thanks! FreeMINT On Amiga 600 with Apollo Vampire 2 th-cam.com/video/4SsFIUPo31I/w-d-xo.html
Vampire Gold 2.9 ATARI mode test th-cam.com/video/1s2dqeKb4EA/w-d-xo.html
I used a Mega STe from 1992-97. I cross-compiled my own MiNT kernel to get started with it, and then compiled the kernel on my STe, thereafter, using GCC. I finally moved on to Windows in '97, and later to the Mac.
This is a great primer on what's up with modern STs. I've seen videos of ST users multitasking GEM programs, using flatscreen monitors, and SD cards for storage, on non-Falcon STs. I've wondered how they did it. This explains it.
Great presentation. I’ve just got back into the ST scene by buying a broken STe off EBay. I’m keen to try the software you described.
Bien Joué Vincent, j'ai eu beaucoup de plaisir !
Merci 😊 Je me suis dit que ça valait le coup de faire un résumé de tout ça, car c'est pas forcément évident d'avoir une vision globale.
Very nice video !!
IN FreeMiNT you can also yse a X11 Unix server! It is called X11-GemServer, in which you can run some low ressource Linux software as a clock.. I test it on a Falcon many years ago, it was very slow but it worked.
*Excellent presentation !*
MORE !!! MORE !!! MORE !!!
Thanks 😊 There is much more on my channel: th-cam.com/users/Vretrocomputing
That was incredible! Whole lecture, informations from first hand! Does somebody knows actual name of his youtube channel? I can't find it...
You can find it at th-cam.com/users/Vretrocomputing
@@fossnorth thank you! I now see why I haven't found it. All is all in FR. Hard to understand, but not completelly. Great news!
Atari and Amiga were similar machine, and had the same CEO "Jack Tramiel" (Who was in Commodore and Atari Corp)
39:00 Atari on Amigaaa ;))))))
Well, this presentation gives us view of one circle, among Atari ST and followers users. Sadly, I had problems to understand clearly spoken in some cases. But I have picture what Vincent wants to say.
Now, maybe I should make some presentation for YT, with my view of OS for Atari ST and followers, and I will do it probably.
So, first problem here is about 'free' . This is not PC without OS. You bought Atari ST, TT, whatever with TOS in ROM. So, you paid for OS too. Of course, that prevents not you to use some other TOS on that HW. And what happened ? Things are that most popular among all alternative OS-es for Atari family was MagiC - what is not free SW. What can mean only one thing: people want to pay if they think that it is worth. No, I'm not against free SW, free OS. Use Linux over 20 years. And it made really nice progress in that time. I used Mint, tested some SW on EmuTOS. Must say that my experiences are bad. Especially with EmuTOS - when some SW fails with more that 60% of SW, what you try on it, what can think ...
Then, it is little absurd to so accent free SW, while it is used mostly by people, which bought some expensive clones, are expensiver Ataris. Yep - Mint is not for ST, slow even on Falcon. EmuTOS ? Really, is someone of ST(E) users using it ? I doubt. I hear only negative comments about not running SW. I know why it is so low compatible, btw. , but will not go in it here.
Most important in all this is that it is simply bad idea to force some modern OS for very old and limited HW. What can be made little faster, little better graph. etc. - but for lot of money. Free SW for expensive HW ? Huh ! Today Internet is slow even on 2GHz PC with 1GB RAM. Not because WIn is crap. It's just that content is for people with newer HW.
So, EmuTOS is done because TOS is still not free ? That's hard do accept. TOS is actually free, as nobody cares for it's copyright.
Even it it would be not truth, there are millions of legal copies around. Not used anymore in not used STs.
I think that real reason is something other: challenge - we can do it. Maybe we can do it better. That's all nice. But what about SW compatibility, speed ? As it is, I think that only real benefit of EmuTOS is that it can work on Amiga.
Personally, I would like to see something new as original (in way of work, usage) OS on ST. Who would not ? But that's just enormous work, for limited count of people, on old, slow HW. Price is too high, while people wants mostly to run reliably and comfortable old SW. What is really useful are TOS patches, improvements. My opinion.
Finally - we have saying 'dead letter on paper' - I don't know how good sounds it in English, but that's is non-free state of TOS. Who cares ? It is paid, people done it got his money. Nobody steals anything. + they maybe should do better documentation of TOS, then it would be easier for SW authors in 80-es, and even for EmuTOS people. That would be case of missing letter on paper :-)
I don't think that Vincent means free as in beer, I'm almost certain that he means free as in libre. This means that the source code is available to the users so that they can study, modify and publish changed versions of the software.
Don't see that it changes things. Free source code is of course nice thing, for those who have time, knowledge, and most important motivation and will to deal with. Things are that most of computer users is not capable for even much less complex things. Computer OS is really large work. Even something short for today standards, as TOS is.
And, if they want attract people to join their projects - what is maybe aim of this presentation, maybe there are better ways for it. I had some mailing with in that time main man for Mint project. That went not well. He was actually arrogant, and refused without thinking my error report, what I explained well. Most of people will stay rather solo, that join team which dictates some things. And sadly, EmuTOS forces attitude 'only documented behavior, features in EmuTOS' . Did they follow TOS history properly at all ? Are they aware how TOS docs are missing lot of things, details ? The reason why there is so much TOS version compatibility problem is right in poor documentation. OK, truth is that even myself was not aware completely about it until last couple years.
In short, if I wanted to make new, TOS compatible OS , which should perform all TOS function calls as original, so basically what EmuTOS claims (and fails in it big part) , I would not join team with bad basic idea.
Then, I would need some serious time to spend to 'construct' missing parts of TOS documentation. That is now easier, because we have diverse TOS docs around, more complete than Atari's original ones. But it is still not good enough. Only way is to test behavior of functions, in some case trace them with debugger, and then conclude what is proper behavior. Not theory. Joystick input function is one, what is not explained well in all available docs. Even STOS, done by good programmer suffers from bad input handle solution.
Finally: do we really need new TOS for old Ataris ? I think that TOS self is not bad, and we now can go straight on later versions. What makes more problems than TOS is SW for it. Partially because not so good programmers, and partially because bad docs. So, some people is maybe focused in fixing old SW rather than TOS. You might guessed it: I'm one of, who does it. Wait ... not only it. Actually I finishing my TOS fix, update this weeks. atari.8bitchip.info/tos105.html
The event was called "foss-north", where FOSS means "Free/Libre Open Source Software". This is why I focused on such software for the Atari ST, based on my own history and point of view. Jeena is right. When I say Free, I mean Free Software (Libre), as defined by Richard Stallman and the FSF. Main point is Freedom, not Money.
About EmuTOS: yes, it exists because Atari TOS is not Free/Libre Software. Otherwise EmuTOS people would have extended Atari TOS. The EmuTOS Development Team cares about Freedom and legal issues, this is the #1 concern. Just like GNU/Linux, people are Free to use EmuTOS, or not use it at all, or just use it sometimes.
Yes, that's all correct Vincent. Sorry for my partially off-topic comment, but I don't think that most of people cares about all it much. And we all know that we are free to use, not, or whatever. What I'm concerned is quality and usability of SW. Will it be free or not - that may depend from many factors.
And just came in, how many of developers, maintainers, who offer something free still have notifications, formulars for taking financial aid. And some people like to appreciate that way.
There is lot of talented people around, who could work on free SW, but they are not able, because they must spend most of time at workplace, with family and like. I have now more free time than 30-20 years ago. That's why I did lot of free stuff for Atari community, and even for some other oldie. It was simply not possible while I had 60 hours/week work.
Then, you really think that in today World, people cares much about legal issues of SW, movies, music ?
What I see is that so called free market is just a lie. My city downtown is full with abandoned shops, because normal shops simply can not pay it anymore (and I'm not in Tokyo, prices here are much lower). Most what works are banks, optical stuff (extremely overpriced glasses for instance) and like. Those, who have very large profit. Even cellar phone companies moved from downtown. Most of workers are school girls/boys in shops. Ah, and don't forget advocates - they charge for 1 hour what normal worker earns in 1-2 days.
So, I will keep my freedom of my mind, and will say that most of copyright for older SW is pure nonsense. And practice proves it, as I said already couple times. Those, who won't make it free, like some game companies just care only for money, and are even lazy to spend half hour for simple declaration. Things are better with some other platforms. Most funny is how there are some sites of game companies, and they offer older games for DL - and what will see there in most cases ? Pirate versions :-) Sorry, we did not preserve it. Of course not. In fact, not much people expected that there will be interest for old SW as is now.
OK,, this gone too long. I hope, you got my points.
I would say that free has more to do with freedom than free of cost in this context.
I need a Video cable ..for my STF .. and i will be back on the game..
See more videos about those topics on my channel:
th-cam.com/users/Vretrocomputing
This looks like it would have been a very interesting presentation. Unfortunately I am struggling to understanding your English - I mean no offence as I am quite sure your English is far better than my French.
Very interesting. Need russian translate and url on wikipedia.
T c'est pas Tramiel ?
Comme je l'ai dit juste après : ça se pourrait.
La vérité est ailleurs.
ok.je comprend mieux pourquoi il y a autant de commentaires en Anglais dans vos vidéos.
Très intéressant. Mais pourquoi continuer à supporter ce matériel obsolète et ce système tant comparable à Window ?
Le Falcon à été trop long à venir et à déjà introduit des incompatibilités. Les clones et systèmes alternatifs encore plus. Et ne parlons pas du coldfire.
En parallèle, avec Mint, c'est une bascule dans le monde Unix. C'était intéressant dans les années 90, mais depuis seul importe Unix et le matériel récent, en terme de coût performance compatibilité durabilité.
Je respecte profondément la ferveur des utilisateurs Atari et Amiga. Juste pourquoi ne pas accepter le deuil et rejoindre le rang de l'histoire ? Où trouvez-vous encore la force de poursuivre cette aventure ?
Nous pouvons tout faire avec de vielle machine
La preuve
En 2020 un banc de puissance branché sur un atari st qui fait le même travail qu un PC a 450 euro et qui bug tout les 5 minutes .
C est une machine très fiable , pas besoin de plus pour certaines applications.
Heureusement qu il reste des personnes comme lui pour continuer cette aventure
Mais bon chacun son opinion
Amicalement
pour les mêmes raisons que certain.e.s ont plaisir à entretenir ou customiser des Citroen 2CV ou des Vespas ? :)