I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this analogy as well, but my retrofit on my PUG is doing the same thing so I'm going to try one to see if it alleviates the problem
Okay I see this explained in another string of comments; module is usually inside the distributor which spins at 1/2 the RPM of the engine. Engine cutout at 4500 RPM = module cutout at 2250. Makes sense now...they also explain the different heights on the pins which was extremely helpful too!!
@@wowchad yea that comment is ill conceived.... It's actually the fixed dwell time on the OEM module that causes the coil to breakdown.... The high performance modules have a dwell curve programmed in to allow the coil time to recover before it is called on to fire again
Hey , this is an awesome retrofit, I did it on my miller bluestar welder with a Tecumseh 16 hp it had a blown module and it is an obsolete part. I used the accel module you recomended and it runs GREAT! Thanks a million!!!
Mark I just did my bluestar but used the oem gm hei I'm backfiring when starting to accelerate just wanted to confirm the accel module would fix this ?
Big Mike, you might want to rethink the engine speed over speeding the module, unless it is a bad module. In a Chevy V8 that module has to fire the coil 4 times each engine revolution, so when your mower is running at 3000 the module is firing 3000 times a minute. When a V8 is running 3000 rpm the module is firing 12,000 times a minute. Maybe your module is bad or is getting hot. Neat about the wheel sensor, I like that.
Chevy 350 distributor runs off of the camshaft and it turns 1/2 as fast as the crankshaft and only fires 1 time. If you put the distributor in 180 out the engine will not run. 2000rpm on a Chevy V8 fires 2000 times. 2000 rpm on a small engine that is fired off of the Crank will fire 4000 times. If the HEI module has a 4000rpm limiter it will cut out at 2000 rpm on a small engine.
On a V8 4 cycle engine, the module must fire 4 times each revolution (360 degrees), 8 times every 2 revolutions (720 degrees). So on a V8, at 1000 rpm, the module must fire 4000 times per minute. The reluctor has 8 segments inside the distributor, 4 cylinders fire each engine revolution.
What forum are you referring to and I did this same type of retrofit on my PUG UTV using a 12v motorcycle coil so it all fits under the original cover. Looks great, much cleaner & you'd never know looking at it that it's been modded. Now I just need to figure out if & how my battery is getting charged.
I did this mod with a coil from a 1987 Jeep Wrangler. I have power to the coil and the HEI module but still no spark. Brand new plug. I stuck one of those light up screw driver deals in the plug cap coming from the coil and turned the motor over and it's not lighting up. But the wire was siting across my foot and when I switched it off it have me a good shock one time. Could use some help in figuring this out.
Great vid, I picked up a sears custom 10xl with canvas cab and snow blower for $200 it needs a magneto, it will be getting a big mike mod, couple things. you stated that the module gives up above 2 grand, we use to drag race these things up above 5-6 grand all the time, if it is humping up around 2 grand check you timing pin gap it should be around .006 to .010. and I don't think the right pin is suppose to be the same height as the Left one, since the Right on is the firing trigger. Also it might help to build some left right adjustment into it. Once I get mine fixed and running I will do a video thank you in it. Jake
+Jacob Spiegel The left trigger pin (with the cooling fins facing up) is supposed to be at .250 thousands. The right pin is supposed to be at .187 thousands. The gap is as you said. As for a new or used solid state coil it does not matter if they are used or not. They either work or they don't. Don't let anyone tell you different. Take for example I have a coil that is over 40 years old and it still works. They were never meant to go bad. That is why they have the name SOLID STATE IGNITION. Anything with the name solid state cost money. The thing that burns these units up is old wiring ...THE COATING FALLING OFF THE STATOR CHARGER WIRES, THE COATING FALLING OFF THE WIRING HARNESS, THE IGNITION SWITCH SHORTING OUT FROM BEING TURNED TO MANY TIMES BEFORE REPLACING IT. Them are the three things I have found that burns these units up. Again they are IGNITION SWITCH-STATOR WIRES-WIRING HARNESS. That's it.
Jacob Spiegel in your reference to drag racing applications I assume you're talking about an automotive engine with a distributor. In that application the HEI module is receiving its trigger signal from a pickup on the distributor. The distributor is turning at one-half the speed of the crankshaft so there is only one pulse for every two revolutions of the engine.In this application the pickup is on the crankshaft so there is one pulse for every RPM. The standard OEM GM HEI module has hey RPM limiter function build into it. It begins cutting out the ignition at 4500 RPM. since this application is getting twice as many pulses it begins cutting out at 2250 RPM. The aftermarket high performance HEI modules do not have that RPM limit function built in so they will allow for full RPM in this application. Regarding the pins on the flywheel. They are both ignition trigger pins. The shorter one to the right is in position to trigger at 20 degrees BTDC and the longer one to the left is positioned to trigger at TDC. This engine is not equipped with automatic compression release. The original ignition module was designed to only sense the longer pin at the low RPMs during starting and a fire at TDC. This allowed for easy starting without kickback. When the engine was running and reached the speed of approximately 600 RPM the ignition module begins sensing the shorter pin which allowed for automatic spark advance to 20 degrees BTDC. This configuration does not allow for that automatic spark advance so the pickup gap has to be positioned to sense the shorter pin at all times or else the engine will run with the ignition timing always at TDC and it will not have adequate power. However, starting the engine at 20 degrees BTDC can result in hard starting due to kick back. This can be overcome by engaging the starter first, then flipping on the switch to supply voltage to the coil after the engine has begun to spin over. That way there is no spark until the engine has enough momentum to overcome the kickback problem.
It all depends on the Module that a person uses to build them. The Chrysler and Accel is the best ones. Not the one out of a GM. That is the one that does not like to handle the RPMs. The left trigger pin is the one that fires the engine at start. That pin is suppose to be at .250 thousands. The right trigger pin is the one that takes over after the engine starts. That one is suppose to be at .187 Thousands. The timing advances to the short pin after start up. Them pins have to be close to those settings on the flywheel. Then the gap is like you say .006 to .010 thousands between the .250 thousands pin on and the solid state ignition.
This is a great retrofit. I tried doing this with my kohler 14 hp k321s but it didn't work. I think it's because i used the original trigger switch. Also I crossed the c and b on the HEI module. Could I have shorted the HEI out or do I need to replace the trigger switch with a sensor? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks
I'm trying to do this conversion on my hh100 due to bad ignition an not gunna pay 200+ for a used eBay one could u tell me the part # for that speed controler ? Thank you in advance.
Does the charging coil behind the flywheel still charge the battery? I have a Tecumseh oh140 that i cant get to fire and was gonna try this before I scrap it but the charging is what i was wondering about.
Wondering the same as that would be an issue if it wasn't. Mine is an HH120 & I just got it running, but it pops & backfires at any higher RPM than idle
One thing I have noticed Is in the circuit you don't have the condenser connected. There is a condenser in the distributer mounted right next to the module. I would think that might be a critical thing to add.
Electo tech. Inventor the purpose of a condenser in an ignition system is to protect the points from arcing damage.There are no points in this system, it is a solid state system using the GM HEI module for the ignition trigger.
@@electotech.inventor2750well of course ur correct and they DO have a condenser so Ig ur not the one that needs to learn anything, but seeing how u asked the question about the condenser I figured I'd give u an answer better late then nvr Ig , these condenser ' s r used on the positive side coil on MANY ignition systems that have NO points ..... Lol sry that was for the other guy their that wanted to lecture u .... Anyways the only reason they use those on solid state systems is to keep emf from messing w radio signals .... This would normally only be an issue in a vehicle and really wouldn't be needed on a lawnmower unless you plan on listening to an am/fm walkman whilst riding ur lawnmower I'd suppose
Hey guys I got a question I know this is a old vid so who knows if I'll get an answer but... I,ve got the engine but mine has the starter\gen on it instead if a toothed flywheel starter I know there is a difference in the ssi's of the two just wondering if this mod would work with mine also or if would need tweaking to work???
+Jester Funnyman if it has the two timing pins it will work if not then it should be a points and condenser system which i would rather have then this set up
1st you need to use a solid core wire instead of a carbon core resistor wire. Automotive type spark plug wires quickly burn up when used on a small engine. Another thing is that if the module has a rev limiter like many OEM GM ones have, it will not work for a small engine because a small engine fires every time the Cank makes 1 full revaluation. Chevy 350 distributor runs off of the camshaft and it turns 1/2 as fast as the crankshaft and only fires 1 time. 2000rpm on a Chevy V8 fires 2000 times. 2000 rpm on a small engine that is fired off of the Crank will fire 4000 times. If the HEI module has a 4000rpm limiter it will cut out at 2000 rpm on a small engine.
why can't it keep up? in a chevy, it is firing 7 times more per revelation so at 5000 rpm it's firing 35000 times a minute in your engine it's only firing only 5000 times a minute?
On a V8, the module has to fire 4 times for each engine revolution, 8 times for 2 revolutions, that’s the definition of a 4 cycle engine. So at 1000 engine rpm, the module must fire 4000 times per minute. 2000 engine rpm, module fires 8000 times per minute. 3000 engine rpm, module fires 12,000 times per minute. 4000 engine rpm, module fires 16,000 times per minute. Remember, the V8 has an 8 segment reluctor inside the distributor, each time the segment passes the pickup coil the module fires the ignition coil.
It's the fixed dwell time in the OEM module, aftermarket high performance modules have a dwell curve programmed into them , the coil needs time to re-saturate before being called on to fire again
What a ridiculous thing to say. In stock for a hei module will handle 8 firing pulses to easily over 4,000 rpm ... thinking that you are over taxing it with a single pulse at half that is just wrong. You have so.e other issue, most likey noise from the remote coil interfere8ng with your trigger signal.
do u know how stupid that sounds. the hei isnt built to work over 2 grand ??? but there in 6 and 8 cyl motors that ooo wait for it... run at over 2000 rpms.. and work just fine.
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The module is firing 8 cylinders and at a much higher rpm on the Chevy engines so it should fire just one cylinder to any rpm it can spin.
I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this analogy as well, but my retrofit on my PUG is doing the same thing so I'm going to try one to see if it alleviates the problem
Okay I see this explained in another string of comments; module is usually inside the distributor which spins at 1/2 the RPM of the engine. Engine cutout at 4500 RPM = module cutout at 2250. Makes sense now...they also explain the different heights on the pins which was extremely helpful too!!
@@wowchad i have used the dodge on a few atvs's and never had a problem.
@@wowchad yea that comment is ill conceived.... It's actually the fixed dwell time on the OEM module that causes the coil to breakdown.... The high performance modules have a dwell curve programmed in to allow the coil time to recover before it is called on to fire again
Hey , this is an awesome retrofit, I did it on my miller bluestar welder with a Tecumseh 16 hp it had a blown module and it is an obsolete part. I used the accel module you recomended and it runs GREAT! Thanks a million!!!
Mark Bergt how'd that retrofit work. I have bluestar welder also, it has an oh160 engine, bad module.
Mark I just did my bluestar but used the oem gm hei I'm backfiring when starting to accelerate just wanted to confirm the accel module would fix this ?
Michael Walker you need a high performance HEI module
@@michaelwalker1644 did you ever upgrade the HEI I'm having the same problem and the engine is backfiring and misfiring too
I have a Miller Bobcat 225 that I am going to try and retrofit this with. Thank you for the idea.
Big Mike, you might want to rethink the engine speed over speeding the module, unless it is a bad module. In a Chevy V8 that module has to fire the coil 4 times each engine revolution, so when your mower is running at 3000 the module is firing 3000 times a minute. When a V8 is running 3000 rpm the module is firing 12,000 times a minute. Maybe your module is bad or is getting hot. Neat about the wheel sensor, I like that.
Chevy 350 distributor runs off of the camshaft and it turns 1/2 as fast as the crankshaft and only fires 1 time. If you put the distributor in 180 out the engine will not run. 2000rpm on a Chevy V8 fires 2000 times. 2000 rpm on a small engine that is fired off of the Crank will fire 4000 times. If the HEI module has a 4000rpm limiter it will cut out at 2000 rpm on a small engine.
On a V8 4 cycle engine, the module must fire 4 times each revolution (360 degrees), 8 times every 2 revolutions (720 degrees). So on a V8, at 1000 rpm, the module must fire 4000 times per minute. The reluctor has 8 segments inside the distributor, 4 cylinders fire each engine revolution.
Trying to save electricity on lights?
What forum are you referring to and I did this same type of retrofit on my PUG UTV using a 12v motorcycle coil so it all fits under the original cover. Looks great, much cleaner & you'd never know looking at it that it's been modded. Now I just need to figure out if & how my battery is getting charged.
I did this mod with a coil from a 1987 Jeep Wrangler. I have power to the coil and the HEI module but still no spark. Brand new plug. I stuck one of those light up screw driver deals in the plug cap coming from the coil and turned the motor over and it's not lighting up. But the wire was siting across my foot and when I switched it off it have me a good shock one time. Could use some help in figuring this out.
Great vid, I picked up a sears custom 10xl with canvas cab and snow blower for $200 it needs a magneto, it will be getting a big mike mod, couple things. you stated that the module gives up above 2 grand, we use to drag race these things up above 5-6 grand all the time, if it is humping up around 2 grand check you timing pin gap it should be around .006 to .010. and I don't think the right pin is suppose to be the same height as the Left one, since the Right on is the firing trigger. Also it might help to build some left right adjustment into it. Once I get mine fixed and running I will do a video thank you in it.
Jake
+Jacob Spiegel The left trigger pin (with the cooling fins facing up) is supposed to be at .250 thousands. The right pin is supposed to be at .187 thousands. The gap is as you said. As for a new or used solid state coil it does not matter if they are used or not. They either work or they don't. Don't let anyone tell you different. Take for example I have a coil that is over 40 years old and it still works. They were never meant to go bad. That is why they have the name SOLID STATE IGNITION. Anything with the name solid state cost money. The thing that burns these units up is old wiring ...THE COATING FALLING OFF THE STATOR CHARGER WIRES, THE COATING FALLING OFF THE WIRING HARNESS, THE IGNITION SWITCH SHORTING OUT FROM BEING TURNED TO MANY TIMES BEFORE REPLACING IT. Them are the three things I have found that burns these units up. Again they are IGNITION SWITCH-STATOR WIRES-WIRING HARNESS. That's it.
Jacob Spiegel in your reference to drag racing applications I assume you're talking about an automotive engine with a distributor. In that application the HEI module is receiving its trigger signal from a pickup on the distributor. The distributor is turning at one-half the speed of the crankshaft so there is only one pulse for every two revolutions of the engine.In this application the pickup is on the crankshaft so there is one pulse for every RPM. The standard OEM GM HEI module has hey RPM limiter function build into it. It begins cutting out the ignition at 4500 RPM. since this application is getting twice as many pulses it begins cutting out at 2250 RPM.
The aftermarket high performance HEI modules do not have that RPM limit function built in so they will allow for full RPM in this application.
Regarding the pins on the flywheel. They are both ignition trigger pins. The shorter one to the right is in position to trigger at 20 degrees BTDC and the longer one to the left is positioned to trigger at TDC. This engine is not equipped with automatic compression release. The original ignition module was designed to only sense the longer pin at the low RPMs during starting and a fire at TDC. This allowed for easy starting without kickback. When the engine was running and reached the speed of approximately 600 RPM the ignition module begins sensing the shorter pin which allowed for automatic spark advance to 20 degrees BTDC.
This configuration does not allow for that automatic spark advance so the pickup gap has to be positioned to sense the shorter pin at all times or else the engine will run with the ignition timing always at TDC and it will not have adequate power. However, starting the engine at 20 degrees BTDC can result in hard starting due to kick back. This can be overcome by engaging the starter first, then flipping on the switch to supply voltage to the coil after the engine has begun to spin over. That way there is no spark until the engine has enough momentum to overcome the kickback problem.
It all depends on the Module that a person uses to build them. The Chrysler and Accel is the best ones. Not the one out of a GM. That is the one that does not like to handle the RPMs. The left trigger pin is the one that fires the engine at start. That pin is suppose to be at .250 thousands. The right trigger pin is the one that takes over after the engine starts. That one is suppose to be at .187 Thousands. The timing advances to the short pin after start up. Them pins have to be close to those settings on the flywheel. Then the gap is like you say .006 to .010 thousands between the .250 thousands pin on and the solid state ignition.
Right! Just as you said Byronmill. Very well Said. I did not see your whole message till I replied. lol.
If both pins are on the flywheel, then the ignition module should fire twice per each revolution, is that not correct?
This is a great retrofit. I tried doing this with my kohler 14 hp k321s but it didn't work. I think it's because i used the original trigger switch. Also I crossed the c and b on the HEI module. Could I have shorted the HEI out or do I need to replace the trigger switch with a sensor? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks
Did you ever figure it out? Want to do the same thing.
I have a hh100 ... set up identical to you ... Replaced every thing , gone be through 3 not cheap modules ... No spark ... 😕
You can use HEI modules can be used for anything. Ive used them on 1980 kawasaki 4cyl motorcycle , and a 2000 honda accord v6.
I'm trying to do this conversion on my hh100 due to bad ignition an not gunna pay 200+ for a used eBay one could u tell me the part # for that speed controler ? Thank you in advance.
will this work on a tecumseh H60, a 6hp unit. thanks again
What was the part number of the hei module you went with. Thanks
Does the charging coil behind the flywheel still charge the battery? I have a Tecumseh oh140 that i cant get to fire and was gonna try this before I scrap it but the charging is what i was wondering about.
Wondering the same as that would be an issue if it wasn't. Mine is an HH120 & I just got it running, but it pops & backfires at any higher RPM than idle
Power outage?
One thing I have noticed Is in the circuit you don't have the condenser connected. There is a condenser in the distributer mounted right next to the module. I would think that might be a critical thing to add.
Electo tech. Inventor the purpose of a condenser in an ignition system is to protect the points from arcing damage.There are no points in this system, it is a solid state system using the GM HEI module for the ignition trigger.
Yet when you look in a gm hei unit there is a cap. So GM thinks so.
Electo tech maybe learn the difference between points and a cap and rotor
@@electotech.inventor2750well of course ur correct and they DO have a condenser so Ig ur not the one that needs to learn anything, but seeing how u asked the question about the condenser I figured I'd give u an answer better late then nvr Ig , these condenser ' s r used on the positive side coil on MANY ignition systems that have NO points ..... Lol sry that was for the other guy their that wanted to lecture u .... Anyways the only reason they use those on solid state systems is to keep emf from messing w radio signals .... This would normally only be an issue in a vehicle and really wouldn't be needed on a lawnmower unless you plan on listening to an am/fm walkman whilst riding ur lawnmower I'd suppose
Hey guys I got a question I know this is a old vid so who knows if I'll get an answer but... I,ve got the engine but mine has the starter\gen on it instead if a toothed flywheel starter I know there is a difference in the ssi's of the two just wondering if this mod would work with mine also or if would need tweaking to work???
+Jester Funnyman if it has the two timing pins it will work if not then it should be a points and condenser system which i would rather have then this set up
1st you need to use a solid core wire instead of a carbon core resistor wire. Automotive type spark plug wires quickly burn up when used on a small engine. Another thing is that if the module has a rev limiter like many OEM GM ones have, it will not work for a small engine because a small engine fires every time the Cank makes 1 full revaluation. Chevy 350 distributor runs off of the camshaft and it turns 1/2 as fast as the crankshaft and only fires 1 time. 2000rpm on a Chevy V8 fires 2000 times. 2000 rpm on a small engine that is fired off of the Crank will fire 4000 times. If the HEI module has a 4000rpm limiter it will cut out at 2000 rpm on a small engine.
Except you forgot there are 8 firing points per revolution on a v8 trigger so you are off by a factor of 4. The module is not the issue.
why can't it keep up? in a chevy, it is firing 7 times more per revelation so at 5000 rpm it's firing 35000 times a minute in your engine it's only firing only 5000 times a minute?
That's explained in other comments, but it's basically because they're usually inside the distributor which spins at 1/2 the RPM
On a V8, the module has to fire 4 times for each engine revolution, 8 times for 2 revolutions, that’s the definition of a 4 cycle engine. So at 1000 engine rpm, the module must fire 4000 times per minute.
2000 engine rpm, module fires 8000 times per minute.
3000 engine rpm, module fires 12,000 times per minute.
4000 engine rpm, module fires 16,000 times per minute.
Remember, the V8 has an 8 segment reluctor inside the distributor, each time the segment passes the pickup coil the module fires the ignition coil.
It's the fixed dwell time in the OEM module, aftermarket high performance modules have a dwell curve programmed into them , the coil needs time to re-saturate before being called on to fire again
Can a HEI ignition coil be used
Of course
everyone flywheel got actual space to put magnet mine is a thin crap with gear and nothing else behind it
if your flywheel was not set up with timing pins built into it this setup will not work yours may not work this way
What a ridiculous thing to say. In stock for a hei module will handle 8 firing pulses to easily over 4,000 rpm ... thinking that you are over taxing it with a single pulse at half that is just wrong. You have so.e other issue, most likey noise from the remote coil interfere8ng with your trigger signal.
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do u know how stupid that sounds. the hei isnt built to work over 2 grand ??? but there in 6 and 8 cyl motors that ooo wait for it... run at over 2000 rpms.. and work just fine.
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