I think the thing for him is that, he sort of is a Mary Sue on surface level, but he doesn’t *want* to be. His Cat Noir persona basically gets rid of any Mary Sue-ness while Marinette is especially Mary Sue-like as Ladybug.
This is true. Marinette's personality is not a Mary Sue though. Ladybug is. Adrien is. Cat Noir isn't. They are pretty well balanced in other words. I think Marinette's Sue qualities just end up standing out more since she's the main focus.
Kabsage IGJ agreed. Ladybug is a Mary Sue. She always saves the day, knows how to make the perfect plan and she gets praised for being the strong superheroine even tho she abused her power. But then Marinette is extremely flawed, even more than her alter ego. I kind of like these opposite parallels between their superhero identities to their civilian identities
MainLineEngine112 I think they’re both like that. Adrien and Ladybug appear perfect, Adrien has tons of talents and Ladybug is a superhero who always has the right plan. Butt Adrien’s also made all the wrong choices about Lila and Chloe, and ladybug’s done a lot of wrong choices mainly because of Adrien (like the Lila thing or desperada). Which is why Marinette and chat have each other on a pedestal, I think when they get to know each other better they’ll learn that neither is perfect, they both have flaws but they can try to be better.
Adrien is supposed to be perfect. That's literally said in the show. The image of Adrien Agreste who is the son of Gabriel Agreste is supposed to be perfect. But that's just an image. When he's Chat Noir or when he's alone by himself you can see him struggling with that image and wanting to break free and just do whatever the hell he wants. So, I think it's interesting how Adrien is forced to be perfect even though he doesn't want to be and how when he's Chat Noir he is showing his recklessness and flaws. I can't wait for the day when he's going to snap as Adrien and just break his perfect image. Then everyone will finally meet him for an adorable dork that he actually is. So I disagree. He's not Mary Sue. There's a difference between being perfect and forced to be perfect.
Oh yeah that's what I'm waiting to see in season 4, Adrian finally snapping, probably get to be rebellious against his father. That's also why I want to see Adrian get mad or Petty in his normal form, since we seen it in cat Noir form.
Aesthetical Dreams Yeah. Of course some have explained otherwise he isn’t really perfect, but some people are believing it and are attempting to justify it.
Aesthetical Dreams Fair. Some are being sexist. Others brought up good points. I thought Adrien was perfect until someone coherently explained Adrien’s true personality resides in Chat Noir. Which made me realize that persona is extremely problematic. Marinette’s personality is Ladybug. When put like that, yeah, Adrien isn’t a Gary Stu, but some don’t think this way and are attempting to justify his perfectness, which is sexist.
@Aesthetical Dreams I saw it from both sides tbh. but I mostly think it has to do with how the characters are represented in the story. for me, their personalities isn't what makes marinette a mary sue, it's how they interact and present themselves. adrien is _forced_ to look perfect because of his dad. that's his image as a model. so when he's chat noir, he acts in ways he'll never be able to as adrien. which makes up for it. why he acts impulsive and quick to anger. marinette doesn't have that. that was one of my main points of calling marinette a mary sue and adrien wasn't. I have a lot more points, but I don't want to rewrite my comment here lmao. but if you want to read my comment, I tried to look at it from both sides. but I think a lot of it is, is that people just don't know the difference between a mary sue and common character tropes, so they just combine them together (which is wrong).
@@igiveuponnames6860 bruh she doesn't exercise regularly. Even if you do have muscles, you need to have combat skills to complement that. I know you are joking but just wanted to say. edit- also she skinny as hell.
The miraculous gives them their powers which includes strength all these were explained in the show and that's y he got used to his powers faster than marrinet.
I honestly think he's still not much of a Mary-Sue, especially compared to Marinette. His wins are so few and far between that having him step up wouldn't even be frowned upon because we've been waiting so long for him to have his time in the sun. If he did suddenly start being a more competent superhero, at least it would feel earned and something to cheer on compared to Marinette who always gets everything and wins often to the point of it being rather boring to watch. Also, because Chat Noir is his true self vs his civilian self being fabricated, I can't say he's a definite Sue because his skills and fame were crafted to fit his father's brand. He had to take Mandarin to be multilingual and impress people, he was forced to act a model for his father's fashion line, he has to be nice to people so he doesn't ruin his father's image or his own. As Chat Noir, he could do whatever he wants, and he often is revealed to be less than perfect compared to Marinette who often gets away with everything in her civilian life and is treated like the perfect superhero by many in Paris. Even if Adrien is a half-Sue, and that's being fair, he still has so many explainable qualities that definitely keep him from truly being a Mr. Perfect, again compared to Marinette.
Christian Circle I feel like the biggest difference between them is struggle. While Adrien is rich, clearly Marinette never had to deal with anything moneywise like him so we can cross that of the list. But Marinette doesn’t usually struggle in a way that actually affects her character. That’s why the moment where she was vulnerable to cat noir because of her insecurities about being LB was good, cuz it seemed like she actually struggled for something. But with Adrien, his struggles are shown to affect him. He struggles with an emotionally abusive father, an over-sheltered life, and (even if this one isn’t shown as much) a lot of pressure to “stay on brand”. He emotionally struggles more than Marinette and it’s harder to relate to someone who doesn’t struggle.
I think adrien is kind and nice because that's how he is as a person. Not because he has to because of his dad. He's still sweet and kind when he's chat noir😊
Efren Arjona I agree to an extent. I do believe that Adrien is naturally kind and caring, but his kindness leads to passivity. Although Adrien is a nice person, he is very passive when others do things that he personally doesn’t like. For example, with Chloe he doesn’t call out her behavior and when he does (he barley calls out her behavior anyways), he just weakly criticizes Chloe, kind of how Tikki doesn’t scold Marinette when she does something that is obviously wrong. Ik i didn’t explain this right 😅 but my point is that Adrien’s kindness is so big to the point of passivity due to the fact that he is scared of ruining his image which is why he is sometimes reluctant to call out people who need to be called out
Agree I used to never care about marinette when me and my 4 yr old daughter watched miraculous Now that we finished s3 she got crazier and we gonna keep going for some development of her
The fact that people can barely name 10 episodes where Adrien is the main focus (and that's debatable) pretty much means he can't be a Mary Sue. For the first point, saying he's essentialy perfect because "the positives outweigh the negatives" is straight up wrong. Either you're perfect or you have negatives. While Adrien's side of his personality could be considered perfect (even if it mostly comes from the image his father forces onto him), his Chat Noir side isn't even close to meeting this criteria. If it was just that he's not the brains of the team, maybe he could be a Mary Sue. But he's useless in many episodes, either being mind controlled or incapacitated until Ladybug has to save him. The fact you literally said "he's robin to her batman" is enough, really. The "tragic backstory" point is also completely unnecesarry for a Mary Sue, as it isn't unique or even a requirement to be one. Many side characters and villains have that.
I think Adrien having a tragic backstory is the reason why he is so loved by the fandom, even more so than Marinette. A lot of people can relate to Adrien’s experiences like having a controlling parent, loneliness, a toxic household, etc. So because of what Adrien has gone through, he feels more fleshed out and human.
Except having tragic backstory is normally done to earn sympathy points which is what you go for in Gary stu. Also saying isn't perfect is a false dichotomy if those flaws don't seriously effect your positives.
@@fightingmedialounge519 However, I think that boy is going to snap one day. Keeping up a perfect reputation is very draining. Especially when the only one he can vent to is a talking cat.
first of all he isnot useless gurl and second stop comparing him to marinatte the show is not only based on her half of the fandom is watching this show for him she is not perfect if you have seen all the episodes she makes many mistakes and starts getting depresed but catnoir is always there for her he always sacrifices himself then how could he be useless adrien said in an episode no one is useless not even chloe
I think the difference between Adrien and Marinette in the discussion of Mary Sue is that with Marinette, it feels like the show is wanting her to make her look good and act flawless and when she fails, it's treated like it's nothing to worry about. Like Marinette does have some issues like the problem of being a hero but it doesn't stick with her. The show makes her perfect and if she fails, that's a little burp in her story. With Adrien, I will admit he does have the components of being a Mary Sue but having the components of a Mary Sue doesn't always make the character into a Mary Sue For example, Saitama is the strongest character we have seen in One punch man but I don't see him as a Mary Sue. I see him as the most truest neutral character ever. He isn't aware of the world, he does non hero things, and he only thinks of I wouldn't say himself bc he's not self centered but he needs something to happen in front of him to notice and do something. He's a good person but he's a non active person. I don't feel like the show is trying so hard to make him look good like the show treats him like a soft boiled egg while everyone around him is shocked or is admiring him. I think that's what makes him different from a Mary Sue. The way the character acts and how the show treats them is what makes someone a Mary Sue. I feel like this applies to Adrien. Yes, he's almost perfect and he has a tragic backstory yes. But I don't feel like the show is using that as a crutch of him as a character. Adrien can be reckless, a pushover, and other things. And while he affects Marinette in her decision making that's part of her character and it makes sense for her to do it. What doesn't makes sense it that a villain almost getting Marinette's earrings when Marinette is captured, stops doing it bc "they're trapped" is the show bending backwards to make Marinette look good by escaping. Or how Marinette is the ONLY StRonGeSt pERsOn from history to hold all miraculous is dumb and trying to making Marinette look awesome. So in the end, yes. Adrien has the components of a Mary Sue, but that doesn't make him into a Mary Sue. It's how the show treats him or how everyone acts around him is what makes him a Mary Sue. Think of it how his characterization and backstory is a foundation of the show. You can't remove it and make the show better. But with Marinette, it's the presentation on the foundation and you can tweak it up a bit to make the show better. That's my thoughts
Yep. Also the part where you talked about the villains acting dumb around ladybug when they're about to get her earrings I was like "oh my gosh yes! The Lady Wi-Fi episode is a perfect example for that" I remember re-watching that episode. and the part where she trapped ladybug up against the wall I was like "couldn't hawkmoth just tell lady wifi to grab ladybugs earrings while ladybug tries to fight her off instead of making things MORE complicated?" (Sry if this comment was too long)
@@miss_chelles1338 Sure the Lady WiFi moment was dumb but it's not an example of Marinette being a Mary Sue, it's simply plot armor. How about when Anansi was trying to get Cat Noir's "earrings" is that proof of him being a Mary Sue? No it's again plot armor. The good thing about Cat Noir though is he generally has a really great way to prevent his Miraculous from being taken. Activating his Cataclysm. And a few times when a villian has gone for Marinette s earrings it'll be Cat Noir that prevents it and vise versa. In order for something to fit the 3rd category, it has to be directly making the Mary Sue look good not just general plot armor. Especially when said armor is pretty evenly applied. You want to know a character in the show that dumbs down others in order for her to seem impressive and smart? Let me introduce you to Ms. "The napkin could have gouged Max's eye out" Rossi.
Omg agreed, especially that marinette/ladybug is always made to seem better than others by making them look bad or stupid, and they tend to do that using chat noir, when we know he is actually really smart
I would like to add that Adrien had to be trained in Piano, Mandarin Chinese, and martial arts. All of these things things that make him "perfect" is a crafted image. The girls that chase after him are only like that because of that crafted image and nothing else. Even if he is a genuinely sweet guy, everything else about him is forced into being. Marinette, on the other hand, has guys chasing after he despite her clumsiness. She's always being her true self and had people falling in love with her anyway. She rarely ever struggles, she always knows what to do as a superhero or herself, she's just "such a genius", that none of her convoluted plans go awry, and she can easily get away with being a brat to someone and still be loved by all the next day. I honestly can't root for her because there's never any stakes. You know for sure that she will win and it won't be exciting. If the same were to happen to Adrien as Chat Noir or himself, I would be so proud because he often loses or has to take a fall for Ladybug and seeing him come on top would be actually enjoyable to watch. I'd be rooting for him.
Other than Kagami when has she gotten away with being a brat to someone and all is forgiven? Certainly not Lila, she made a life long enemy out of her.
The thing with Lila is that she is the villain, though. It's in her "blood" to oppose the main heroine and try to make her life miserable. Also, Lila's personality literally wouldn't let her forgive Ladybug/Marinette. Her whole being is built on lies, something that Marinette hates and tries to expose at every turn. This makes her an enemy in Lila's eyes. Lila needs her lies to be believed in order to stay in power so any threats to her lies are threats to her and those threats must be eliminated. Marinette is such a threat and so Lila opposes her. Literally, the only reason why she is against Marinette/Ladybug is because Marinette tried to expose her for the liar she is. Marinette knows she's lying so Lila must destroy her before she can convince others to see the truth. Hence, all of her attempts to discredit Marinette. Lila hates when not all of the sheep believe her, she hates when someone is aware of her lies and tries to tell others. Lila is obsessed with Adrien but probably doesn't like him much due to him not believing her lies. He will not expose her though so he gets off easy. Marinette is the opposite; loud in her ways of disapproval, quick to try and discredit Lila. So ye, the situation with Lila is the way it is because it was designed this way. Lila needs to be against Marinette so Marinette's behavior is not forgiven.
@@halleysh Sure I understand all that. Of course Lila is the enemy and so isn't going to forgive Ladybug even after she apologized. But I was looking for more examples that prove "she can easily get away with being a brat to someone and be loved by all the next day" one person (Kagami) doesn't prove a pattern.
@@kabsageigj8941 ye, I understand it and well, it's not like you're much wrong. I'd just say that Lila isn't probably the best example to use to say that Marinette's brattiness has consequences since her role is what it is and her not forgiving Marinette is a must for the plot to go the way it goes.
Is Adrien a Mary Sue? For me, the answer is no. As for being underutilized? Hard yes. Now, this will be a very long comment and I will type a lot, so just be warned now. There are three main reasons why I believe he isn’t a Mary Sue type character. One, his skill set was learned, not just gifted to him. Adrien may be fluent in multiple languages, knows how to fence, and may be a good gamer, but all of those traits were learned rather than just given to him. He still actively takes lessons with them as well. He isn’t a master above all else by any means. Kagami has been shown to be on par if not better than him when it comes to fencing, Marinette in fact, is a better gamer, and he’s about on par with Sabrina in terms of grades as stated by Marinette. His skill set may be well versed, and he may be a jack of all trades, but he isn’t a master of everything like most Mary Sues are. Two, Adrien’s family drama and backstory may seem like a Mary Sue backstory, but that isn’t what defines them being a Mary Sue. To me, what defines them as a Mary Sue is the fact that they don’t struggle or have any problems from said backstory. Adrien isn’t like that. He is aware of the problems around his family, and clearly struggles with the disappearance of his mother. He has made harsh and dumb decisions surrounding that fact too. He ran away from home multiple times causing unnecessary fear, actively made a public nuisance by throwing a party, and had a full blown mental crisis after she was revealed in the cryogenic chamber. Now, one may argue that it’s because he’s a Sympatheic Sue, a brand of Mary Sue who’s sole purpose is to go through as many traumatic things as possible to gain sympathy from the audience. This brings me to the last point. Three, Adrien’s character in the story isn’t just being a punching bag for trauma. He doesn’t take that trauma lying down and not do anything about it. He has been shown trying to overcome that struggle in any way he can time and again, wanting to spend time with his father, asking questions about his mom, and even groaning at Ladybug of all people when he feels as if he isn’t being told the whole picture despite them being partners as seen in Syren. He wants answers and wants the truth. He doesn’t just sit there and go “Oh, woe is me!”, not questioning anything. As for being underutilized, Adrien is an underutilized character, no doubt about it. However, that’s most likely due to the way the story is structured surrounding his family. Do you know why there are almost no episodes where Adrien seems to be the main focus? It’s because of the fact that his family is drowning in spoiler-esque plot. Pretty much every episode where Adrien’s family seems to be the focus, we’re given new information surrounding the overarching plot. Bombarding us with info about his family will probably ruin the mystery of it all and severely limit the writing material they have at their disposal. So, to compensate for the 20+ episodes they have to write each season, they right one-off villains interacting with Marinette. Marinette as a civilian, not Ladybug, has almost no plot relevance in the overarching plot. Much of the plot circulating around her stems from her being Ladybug. This makes it a million times easier to write episodes around her as a civilian rather than Adrien. In fact, Adrien and Chloé are really the only two characters where their civilian sides are actually important to the overarching plot. (Please keep in mind that I’m saying overarching. Characters may be very important one episode, but it’s most likely never touched upon again due to the episodic nature of the series. Think Max and Startrain, for example.) To close off, Adrien, in my eyes, is not a Mary Sue, but rather a character that has too much on his plate plot wise that the writers can’t get rid of it immediately like the others.
I read all of it, and it’s perfect. I love all your opinions, and you worded very well! Idk if this is too much trouble, but what do you think of Marinette?
Oh, Marinette. She’s... a character to say at least. Again, this will be a long. I am warning you all now. So, now that you have been, let me begin. To start off, don’t get me wrong, Marinette is an incredibly entertaining character. In fact, in Season 1, she was one of my favorites alongside Chat and Chloé. The skill set she has makes sense, her character is justifiable, and being an awesome superhero is all pretty good, and I have no problem with it. If you asked me if I thought she was a Mary Sue in Season 1, I would have told you “No” straight out. However, with the direction they’re taking the show... some problems have risen up surrounding her character and what it means to be Ladybug. Before I begin however, I want to clarify I’m not going to be touching on her “stalkerish” behavior surrounding Adrien. That is a topic for another day entirely, and much of it is for comedic effect. As for Marinette being a Mary Sue now, she is teetering on the border of it. She’s right there, and if she falls, it’s all over. Her character has so many different interactions, moments, and choices that make it hard to critically analyze all of them properly without leaving something out. However, I have noticed a few running themes surrounding her character that are much easier to analyze. A running theme as a civilian with her character is having a justifiable reason for the things that happen to her, but the end result being blown absolutely out of proportion, whether it is good or bad. For example, her skill set as a civilian is justifiable, being a good designer, baker, and gamer. She’s incredibly creative and a great choice for being the Ladybug. However, because of those skills, she meets so many in-show famous people that are immediately drawn to her for no other reason than plot convenience. Out of all people, she’s chosen as “Ladybug” in Frightingale, becomes the cover artist for Jagged Stone, and Audrey Bourgeois, a notorious critic of fashion and design, practically gushed over a girl she just met, even offering her a trip to New York on the spot. That just seems... odd, doesn’t it? As for her skills as Ladybug, being incredibly creative and a quick thinker is a good fit. However, here’s the thing. She never really struggles most of the time. We never really see her struggle to figure out a solution, we never see her struggle with wielding a new Miraculous (I’m looking at you Kwamibuster and Reflekdoll), and we never really see her get captured or lose a fight needing to be saved by Chat Noir. This is why Sandman was one of my favorite episodes. Ladybug had to adapt to the fact she couldn’t summon her Lucky Charm. She needed Chat’s help more than ever that episode, and the boy was actually utilized for once instead of being pawned off for the millionth time. As for her sudden power-ups, practically almost all of the problems with them stem from the fact that the show hyper-fixates on Marinette in her “day-to-day” life before moving to the akuma fight. Now, for Season 1, that worked fine. It was an introductory season, introducing the heroes, villains, Miraculous, and the dynamics between her class and other people. However, Season 2 was when it started to change. Seasons 2 and 3 had Marinette becoming closer to Master Fu. The plot and world building was starting to progress with this interaction. However, the quota didn’t change. The episode structure didn’t morph to meet this shift in dynamic to properly explain the lore of the show. Most of the things surrounding Fu and Ladybug in Season 2 and 3 just kind of came out of nowhere with no buildup or prior knowledge. This is why her becoming the Guardian just kind of… happened. No appropriate buildup surrounding it either aside from mentioning it in passing at the end of Feast. We never really see Fu train Ladybug to be the Guardian. We never see him do anything to prompt Ladybug in case he needs to end up leaving. Fu was supposed to be a mentor, but all he really did was drop snippets of out-of-the-blue exposition when it was convenient for the writers. The show is hyper fixated on Marinette, but we never really see any of the things that truly matter in the overarching plot without them coming out of left field. They blow her strengths out of proportion, and make her practically unstoppable as Ladybug outside of a few instances. Now, I’m not saying to make her suddenly incompetent, a damsel, or just overall nuisance to try and get rid of her Sueness. In fact, that would actually ruin the show ever further. She’s so close to being a Sue, but there is a way to remedy it. Simply widen the scope of the show outside of Marinette, fix the way the episodes are structured, and allow us to see proper continuity of the show. With it, they can... - Show us meaningful character interactions where Marinette isn’t even present. - Develop the dynamics of the side characters like Alya, Nino, and especially Chloé. - Give Luka a stronger character. - Show us episodes centered around the villains. - Let Ladybug lose her footing once in a while to let us see her grow as a fighter. - Make it to where her superpowers aren’t just plot devices to explain why nothing changes. - Give us more episodes where Chat is a necessity in battle, or give him time to grow as a superhero. Stuff like this will massively improve the quality of the show, letting it properly world build, show character, and make the world seem more authentic without Marinette suddenly becoming a completely different character. It’s the “Miraculous Universe”, not “Marinette’s Universe” after all. We don’t need to fixate on her all the time.
@@elijahrinkel3846 👏👏👏👏 I totally agree with you! Thanks for putting some of my thought out there on the Internet! (At this point it might be the everyone over the age of 10 within the fandom's thoughts)
its fine that Adrien is good at everything, multilingual etc because we actually see him practicing and learning that stuff in the show, and as his dad is rich and powerful, there's a lot of pressure on him to be perfect
Him having all that is reasonable for any child to achieve assuming their parent(s) invest in him at a early, it's the basic argument for "Perfect Pitch" to begin with, never was debunked either, but it's a bit sad that there really aint a real passion behind what he does aside from maybe modelling and Marinette+Gabriel still beats him when it comes to Natural creative talent (he has the potential to become better with that as Oblivio showed though), so it's not like he got all the skills covered.
@@sebas8225 Well when he is basically forced to do all these things when is he able to find out his real passions? This where we might find his real personality because both him Chat Noir are both masks he puts on to be liked in public. Maybe he truly is of baker material xD
I honestly don't think Chloe is romantically interested in Adrien. Hear me out: she and Adrien have been friends since they were small children. After Adrien being locked up for so long, you'd think that Chloe would want to be all over him bc he was her first and only (Sabrina is more of a servant) friend.
I can definitely see that! I think she does that because she never got true and GENUINE attention from the people around her. Hell her own mother forgets her name. I think she's just overzealous with Adrien because she knows he believes in her and that they can be there for each other.
@@LyxiLynnn Childhood friends are also more valuable than recent ones, for her (seeing how she treats Sabrina below Adrien Standards) Chloé likely doesnt wanna risk her childhood friendship with Adrien with a relationship chance that could ruin said friendship, but she doesnt want Adrien to have someone closer to him than her either.
Girls trying to get adrien 3:38 Kagami: Direct and straight to the point Marinette: Silly and Hopeless ( LOL ) Chloe : Rash and Abrasive Lila: Manipulates to get closer THIS IS LITERALLY HALF THE SHOW SUMMED UP XD
I honestly *don't* think Chloé loves him, I honestly thinks she's just a close friend played off in a terrible way. She seems content with her _thinking_ that they are best friends.
1:22 you’re wrong. Marinette’s whole character revolves around Adrien not Kagami’s. You can’t even find a single episode where Marinette isn’t stalking Adrien. Kagami has a personality and goes through development. She starts off as this cold hearted person who can’t make friends and ends with becoming friends with everyone. Marinette’s gotten worse and has no overall personality
I agree with this whole heartedly. Kagami has her struggles and actually develops as a character. And she has more to her than just her character revolving around Adrien. She has her struggles with her mom, upholding her image/reputation, making friends, and have a life of her own.
I agree that Kagami's character doesn't only revolve around Adrien but it's still a big part of her arc. To compare it to Marinette, who is in every single episode and say she's had more moments simply isn't fair. Marinette has had plenty of episodes where Adrien hasn't been the focus of her thinking or even really mentioned at all. Kagami has had one, Ikari Gozen.
Kabsage IGJ name those “plenty of episodes”. Marinette has zero personality other than Adrien. Bakerix is the only episode I can name where she isn’t being a psycho
@@semolinalibra Sure. * = some interaction with Adrien but the episode doesn't revolve around her feelings for him Mr. Pigeon* Timebreaker* The Pharoh Lady Wifi Rogercop Darkblade* Princess Fragrance* Guitar Villian* Reflekta* The Puppeteer Prime Queen Befana* Robustus The Dark Owl Sapotis Frightengale* Syren Zombizou* Reverser* Anansi* Malidikator* Heroes Day* Bakerix Gamer 2.0 Weredad Silencer Miracular Christmaster Kwamibuster Timetagger Ladybug* I could've included more.
I think Luka is a mary sue: (1.They are essentially perfect):He is handsome, kind, talented, supportive brother, he respects marinette and give her time and he doesnt push her and even as a hero he used the snake miraculous better than the main protagonist adrien. And even when he got akumatized he didnt hurt anyone he just wanted to prove the truth. I cant even think of a single disadvantage. (2.always right and make the correct decision): He hasnt take many disicions in the show because he is a secontary character but all his acts are right i dont remember he has done something bad. (3.make other characters look terrible to suit the mary sue): in the episode desperada ladybug gave to adrien the snake miraculous first but after months and thousands second chances he couldn't save ladybug and he always failed but then she gave the miraculous to luka and he did the job perfectly. I think his character manly make adriens character look bad because he is and the second love interest of marinette but he doesnt have any flaws he is just perfect. (4.tragic backstory that makes mary sue looks impressive):He doesnt quite have a TRAGIC backstory like adriens but he grew up without a father and maybe in next seasons they give us more backstory to his character but the only think we know is that his mom is alone and probably raised luka and juleka all by her self. That is not that tragic but he is a boy in his teenage years without a father as a role model. I think he is a mary sue he doesnt have any flaws he is too perfect.Thanks for reading!!!
I'm actually agreeing with this guy. Adrien probably knows nothing about Sexual harassment, which, if you think about it, is probably why he doesn't stop asking Ladybug.
@Miraculously Clumsy I'm assuming, the reason why he keeps at it, is because he presumes Ladybug to be a bit "Tsunderish" consideering his childhood friend is Chloé, there's nothing to be surprised, plus it's not like Ladybug ever told him whom she loves and consideering all the fangirls he has as a civilian he probably believes he has a shot, which isnt a wrong assessment.
I would've a problem with that if Ladybug doesn't flirt back. The only thing LB has a problem with is his poor timing. And when I watched the Felix episode, I really think LB doesn't really mind. Look at Felix who pretended to be Adrien and tries to flirt with LB, LB keeps saying no and punched him. If LB really has a problem with CN, she knew they could talk things out.
I think that people don't know the difference between a "mary sue" and common character tropes. those are two completely different things. I said this before on the video about marinette, but I'll say it again here: *you can't measure how well a character is written by their powers. you can't measure them by their personalities.* you can't do any of that, because when it comes down to it, the characters and story are interwoven tightly. so to know a character, you need to know the story. *characters aren't some sort of balance where you add and subtract "negative" and "positive" traits, and the net "positivity" determines if the character is a good one or not.* you can, however, judge them based on their interactions and their overall depiction of the story. for marinette, essentially, the whole world revolves around her. and I mean the _whole_ world revolves around her. if not marinette herself, than ladybug. they discover marinette, realize that she is incredibly special, then is chosen to become a superhero. from there, a bunch of guys fall in love with her, and she has a huge group of people that love her because she's just so amazing, and on top of that gets to save paris from whatever happens that day. sound familiar? adrien on the other hand, is _forced_ to look perfect from his father. altering his image to make sure there's no scandals and overall making him the best that he can be. he isn't actually perfect, but he is forced to be. that's why when he's cat noir, he's more reckless, impulsive, and quick to anger. he is actually made to _be_ perfect because that's his character. marinette isn't. also, the story barely revolves around adrien even though he's supposed to be a main character. you can't name ten episodes where adrien is in the main plot line. I'm not saying that adrien is any different from marinette either, he has a lot of girls that throw themselves at him, and that they discovered how special he was and became a superhero alongside marinette. and he even is even involved with many things like fencing, chinese, modeling, and playing the piano. yet, when you look at it, it's marinette doing all the saving, she's the only one who can "save the world". adrien is often used as a decoy, or gets turned against ladybug for "angst" and "drama". he doesn't seem perfect at all as cat noir, rather as the comedy relief. _that's_ why marinette is a mary sue. it has nothing to do with either of their personalities, but rather how they are involved in the story and how she is presented. she is presented perfect, and while she struggles _sometimes_ , it just doesn't add up to the amount of times that marinette has saved the day with ease in a matter of seconds. never giving us a chance of worry that they might not make it, or never giving us any tension because we all know how it's going to end. plus, not to mention, that marinette is the "best ladybug" and how she is the sTrOnGeSt mIrAcUlOuS holder in the world, and that is what leaves the show dry and unwatchable. the point: while adrien does have some characteristics of a mary sue, that doesn't make him a mary sue from the way he is presented in the story.
I enjoyed reading this but I'd like to ask, how is Marinette, specifically Marinette not Ladybug (fair since you discounted the Adrien side of him), presented as perfect? She's a bigger mess than Cat Noir is.
Kabsage IGJ personally, i’d say it’s because all of her problems are resolved by the end of the episode. it’s not that she doesn’t have flaws, it’s that her flaws don’t affect her in the long term (she doesn’t learn from those mistakes, but she also doesn’t get any form of ‘punishment’ for it either. you could put that down to the formatting of the show, but i think it’s more than just that. she’s written to be a ‘mess’, but her messiness never changes and it’s felt like it’s added on just so she is ‘flawed’. she’s awkward around adrien, and that’s about it. chat noir’s mess, on the other hand, is more than that. he acts the way he wishes he could as adrien, and so reacts that way. it’s an expression of what’s repressed in his everyday life, which is why we can accept the fact nothing changes. he also tends to learn from the mistakes he makes over the course of the show, for example with him accepting lb’s rejections slowly and as recently seen in s3, pulling away from her and understanding her reasoning behind it. anyway, sorry for the read, just my opinion lol :)
@@margaretm7488 No don't apologize, thank you for the response. I see but I also think the point is that she has yet to achieve her ultimate goal. You can say she doesn't suffer any consquences for her actions, or learn from her mistakes but Adrien is now with Kagami. That is a consquence of her inability to confess to him. And I think she will eventually learn from her previous attempts. She did suffer the consequences of getting on Lila's bad side. Her apology didn't erase her mistake that time. I also don't know that her mistake in Cat Blanc will be forgotten. Afterall she retained the memory of that event. In this type of show it'd be hard for her to suffer a big consquences from the episode itself. Is this untrue for other characters?
Kabsage IGJ i agree with you in that she still has to achieve her ultimate goal, but it doesn’t feel like she has one yet. confessing to adrien is a pretty big deal for who she is, but her inability to confess to him isn’t something i hold against her. in fact, it’s what makes her relatable despite being so perfect. i have bigger issues with episodes like animaestro where she literally works with chloe (who she hates) to bring down another girl who has done nothing but be with the guy she likes, and at the end gets to sit next to adrien in the premiere. with lila, it wasn’t a consequence because of bad judgement on her part. lila needed to be called out by someone, even if mari originally went about it in the wrong way, it was lila who held the grudge and lila who made it all happen, not marinette. it may have been a consequence, but it wasn’t the kind mari needed to advance as a character. with chat blanc, while the memory of what a simple mistake could cost her may still remain, in her present timeline, all it did was reinforce the idea that they couldn’t know who each other were, which lb was already firmly sure about in the first place. it would have been better if ladybug had turned bad and chat noir had to see why he couldn’t know her identity (though i still loved the episode, it just felt a little unnecessary and rushed in the grand scheme of the show). in the show, it is difficult for her to suffer consequences, yes, but i feel like the writers could at least try to give her consequences for things that matter. i would say that it is similar to other characters, but mari is the focus of the show and does make the biggest blunders, so it would be nice to see her progress a little more. adrien doesn’t receive many consequences, but his whole life feels like one big payback for any bad he does, plus though he’s a main character, he isn’t actually leading us through the show and we tend to see him through the eyes of mari (totally perfect) so we won’t see his consequences. i just wish as it’s aimed at kids that mari’s actions weren’t just passed by as typical girl with a crush and weren’t passing down the message that her creepiness towards adrien is okay and normal for girls because it isn’t. i’m hopeful for s4, however, and i do it believe that mari will begin her development during it, following another stress-induced low like the end of s3. i hope you can see where i’m coming from!
Once again I have to say that tragic backstory is not a trait of a Mary Sue, just one that a lot of Sues have because people who write Sues think its cool to have one. Adrien appearing perfect is a part of his character, but its also a persona he puts on as a representative of the Agreste brand. Whats important is that hes not actually perfect beyond a surface level analysis, he makes mistakes that are clearly defined by the show as mistakes rather than portrayed as either "he was right all along" or "turns out its actually better this way" like Marinette. Yes Adrien is a high morality character, but being morally a high morality character doesn't automatically make one a Sue without it being accompanied by it being a focal point of the story how morally right they are. Hes also not always the one taking the high road, and when he doesnt the show doesnt pretend like he is. When Marinette is mean to someone it practically always (if not always) turns out that while she was wrong, they were still bad people so they probably deserved it anyway.
Sorry but for the perfect part, Adrien isn't perfect, he act perfect, it's not the same! He have to act perfect, it's not his real character, so that's a 1/4 but the sad backstory doesn't make a character a Mary sue. So Adrien isn't a Mary sue. Not even a half Mary sue.
Adrien does have some Sue-ish traits, but in order to make a balanced character, you have to give them some of these traits, ya know? But he also does have flaws. They're just more porminent when he's Chat Noir. He's reckless, impulsive, cracks jokes and puns at the most inopportune times, flirts with Ladybug during battle and sometimes can be somewhat petty when she rejects him. As Adrien, he is lenient with Chloe and Lila, although with the latter, that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. He's too naive and forgiving. He's also oblivious to love and dense (But that also applies to Marinette too), and overall, he's too good for his own good. And it was established to us since the first season that he has to uphold a perfect image to not ruin his father's reputation. Because of that, he was unable to be himself, and this made him feel sad as he does things just to make his father happy instead of making himself happy. But what's really irritating is that Thomas keeps on insisting that Adrien is 'perfect' even though the show proved to us over and over again that he's not and as I mentioned before, how this 'perfect' image isn't making him happy. And instead of making Marinette actually sit down, talk to him and become a REAL friend for him, Thomas instead made her obsessive with him to ridiculous levels and doesn't see anything wrong with her behavior at all. She puts him on a high pedestal and this hasn't changed in THREE seasons. And as Chat Noir, when he can act like however he wants and say whatever that comes to his mind, he gets ridiculed, mocked and insulted by not only his partner Ladybug (Marinette), but also by the other girls who like him as Adrien like Chloe and Kagami. So, you're telling me that in order for boys to be liked by girls, they have to put up an image of passive, perfect paragons, and when they act honest, spontaneous and true to themselves, girls wouldn't like them? Well, thank you 🙄 Even though I'm a woman, that's a horrible message to tell to boys who watch this show, regardless of their age 😑🤦♀️
Wow, I’ve always thought like this but I thought I was alone. I think Thomas likes Adrien the way he is (I think, not sure), but it’s so obvious Adrien doesn’t like this lifestyle. And besides Nino, he doesn’t have anyone to vent too, so ultimately it’s bottled up and he can finally release it when he’s Chat Noir, causing him to be reckless and all the other flaws you said above. He can’t talk to Chloe really because he’s too busy trying to help her become better, he can’t talk to Lila because... she’s Lila. He can’t talk to Kagami because besides Kagami having a crush on him, she has her own family problems. And Marinette is too busy stalking and fantasizing about him that she doesn’t realize that he isn’t okay
@@reniii8095 Thats the thing, Thomas drove himself into a corner with this Mary Sue oposites thing, now he cant change Marinette and Adrien's characters too much towards another point, into risking them to become either Mary Sues themselves or make the other character a Mary Sue.
Good video overall. The only critique I have of this video is that (for both Marinette and Adrien) whether they have a tragic back story should not be a deciding factor on whether they are a Mary Sue. This (imo) is because many complex backstories of well-written characters are never a problem. Lets take Aang from Atla for example. He has a tragic back story yet he clearly isn't a Mary Sue. From the same show, Zuko has one of the saddest (if not the most tragic) backstories in the show yet his character is loved by everyone for being so complex and well written. Or lets say Peter Parker, he has a tragic backstory. I wouldn't say he is a Mary Sue (idk about the comics tho). While yes lazy writers use it to make a character more sympathetic, good writers make it so that it gives context to the character and improves on them. It's like a hammer when building a birdhouse. The hammer can help you a lot (even tho it is technically optional) to build it, but if you use it way too much the wood will break. (I hope this metaphor makes sense). I think if they managed to find a way for him to say/express that he doesn't like modeling, and somehow got him to quit, it would make him less of a Gary Stue (male version of Mary Sue). If they do this they could make Hawkmoth/Gabriel more sympathetic. Showing that he does care about his son. This would make the moment he finds out Adrien is Chat a lot better. Especially since when he found out in Chat Blanque, he just shrugged it off like "oh what a lovely day to find out I've been attacking my son all this time. Time to emotionally manipulate him because I clearly don't care". If you like that episode good for you but that moment really annoyed me. Additionally, if they had characters doubt Adrien more. Not maliciously. Just every once in a while dismiss him or confront him about his bias towards Chloe. It doesn't have to be extreme. But I do think if he manages to quit some of there whole rich kid stuff and managed to give him a hobby that he isn't very good at but he enjoys, it'd be better (Kinda how Sokka clearly likes painting but he sucks at it in the show).
I never saw him as one. Being optimistic, kind and positive isn't meant to call you perfect, I am like that in tough situations. After all he'd been through, it's only natural for him to be immune with negative emotions. He's the son of GABRIEL AGRESTE, he had been controlled and isolated for most of his life and ofcourse forced to be perfect. We all see him hurt and wanted to break free and he can only do that when he is CatNoir. What Thomas said is undeniably wrong, he is not perfect he's just forced to be one because he has a strict and cold father. He's not perfect and that's what CatNoir shows us.
I don't watch the show, but if my surface level knowledge gave me any indication. A character that is forced to be perfect is *not* a mary sue/marty stu. As his hero alter ego, Adrien showed his flaws, which is a *lot.* He could excel in so many things because he was *trained* for them. Like modelling, multilingual, or musical expertise. He didn't necessarily want this training nor this would affect him on personal level, but just on image level. Marinette, on the other hand, excels on something she wasn't supposed to. She's a 'normal' girl but somehow REALLY perfect. Ofc, with her flaw being clumsy and other mainstream craps. THAT is the trait of mary sue.
The way to help Adrien is to really lean into that his perfection is bred by his father and is a whole persona. He has to be perfect or else he's let his father down. Like how he has this tight schedule of learning piano and mandarin which puts a lot of stress on him. Not just socially with friends but emotionally. It gives more importance to him being a different person as Cat Noir.
It also makes him value his time more and being quick to try to move into Lovezone with Ladybug too to be honest, it all stems from how Gabriel controls what he does in most of his time.
Although Adrien's perfection is considered an image, he is still liked by everyone and you can still see that his kindness is still who he is, even if he is a flirt and joker too. The broken family image and popularity he has is still a typical Mary Sue trait. The reason that it works is because Adrien's bad actions only really show when he's Chat Noir, which makes the fabrication of his perfection made in the show even stronger, despite him being all-round heroic and likeable in his superhero form (his wide variety of puns and stances, as well as how he saves and blindly trusts Ladybug because he loves her). His bad actions are more justified than Marinette's because of the influence of his own experiences and the fact that she makes a lot more bad decisions and in a more dislikeable way. This means he can get away with it because his own poor choices are a lot weaker, fewer, and validated by his own life, whilst Marinette gets off for much more disagreeable deeds because lots of people like her too and Ladybug is just too competent - people find the latter a lot less appealing and more unrealistic. Ladybug is the one who knows what to do when they both fight akumas, but in everyday life it is the opposite; Adrien often reasons and teaches Marinette things (such as when he stops her from confronting Lila for her lies and he gives up his place in the gaming tournament for Max and Marinette to play). Just because Adrien's flawlessness is a front, that doesn't mean that his actions as a civilian are merely based on that and not his own personality. I know that this explanation is very magnified on Adrien being a bit of a Sue, but I wanted to get it out there because I haven't really seen anyone talking about it in this way - it was quite hard to argue this, since we all love golden boy and he deserves to shine, especially as Chat Noir. Adrien is definitely not perfect and neither is Marinette, I'm very interested to see them reveal more of their true selves. I think most of the other things I would mention and agree with have already been said by some observant people in this comment section, and this is already very long! Thanks for reading if you did :)
I can answer this: no. Marinette is much more of a Mary-Sue than Adrien, which is a huge problem in the MA universe. Adrien is supposed to be perfect. He’s supposed to be framed as this untouchable, flawless model to almost everyone else in the universe, and that’s because his dad overworks him and forces him to be good. If Adrien was a Mary-Sue (he isn’t, for the reasons that he makes mistakes a lot of the time and is framed as worse in almost everything than Marinette), it would make sense. Marinette being an actual Mary-Sue *doesn’t* make sense, since in her words, she’s supposed to be a “normal girl with a normal life”. Yet she’s somehow better than Adrien in gaming, fencing, fighting etc. When it makes no sense whatsoever. When Marinette displays bad behaviour, she rarely gets punished for it and the only thing she gets is a slap on the wrist from Tikki. Her stalking is displayed as cute and quirky, and she realistically shouldn’t be friends - or at least acquainted - with so many celebrities (her uncle, Adrien, Chat noir, Gabriel, the news reporter, Alya etc.) It’s ironic how she’s meant to be likeable. But her being a picture perfect Mary-Sue makes her so punchable. Adrien’s the one putting all his time and effort into these extracurricular activities, and yet Marinette (who spends her time making clothes and stalking Adrien) is the one who’s gaining his skills for him. Tf. If “girl empowerment“ was the message of this show, wouldn’t it make more sense to switch the genders of Adrien and Marinette? At least a genderswapped Adrien who’s still perfect would make more sense than regular Marinette.
Okay. My tid-bit. I don't think the components of what a Sue stereotypically is as opposed to what makes a Sue are two different things. One, tragic backstories don't always make a Sue. In fact many characters can have a tragic backstory but not be a Sue. I mean look at Zuku from Avatar. Prince banished from the fire nation, none other by his own father, and skills was subpar. Some would argue that is a tragic backstory but that doesn't make him a Mary Sue. Also see characters like Batman, who was orphaned or Jason Todd's Red Hood who literally died. Again, not considered Sue's unless written poorly and their backstory would then have nothing to do with it. The issue of Sue's..or primary issue, is that they don't work with the plot. The plot works around her. For instance, most mary sues are the center of attention and no one really knows why. They warp the world and glorify the character rather than prioritizing the rules of reality. For example, Marientte is the only character who has apprently ever used multiple miraculous...as a child....with no drawbacks. This totally deflates the power and risk of said power the miraculous hold. If she can do that with two with no side effects why doesn't she all the time? Questions like that poke holes in the plot, which is only used to convenience her. There is also a huge thing people take time to note, is how the plot favours her when she makes actions that other characters have, such as chloe or Lila, and receive nothing but positive consequences. Such as that time where her and Chloe try to sabotage Kagami...and yet only chloe gets any consequence and Marinette gets to sit with her crush. Even minor things like that will contribute to a Sue's power over the plot. Of course you also get the whole villains/heroes who are considered intelligent, purposefully do something dumb which puts Mari on a pedestal. A lot of people may argue that Sues don't have consequences and Marinette had a huge on at the end in Miracle Queen. Yes, I agree that was well written, however, that doesn't automatically balance everything back out. I mean Kirito has had a ton of consequences in the first series of Sao, getting his whole guild killed at one point, but was still a Sue. Adrien on the other hand, not only lacks the episodes to be considered a Sue, but the arguments you gave to justify calling him a half Sue doesn't quite add up. For one, the backstory doesn't always make the character a Sue, see my prior examples. The second thing is his perfection. This is in character with him. His status as a model makes sense in regards to his popularity. I mean look at idols and models in rela life. People are obsessed with some and good looking people are popular in school. He takes fencing because he can't afford it, and fencing is relatively popular in Europe, more so in France, Italy, and Spain than places like the UK or Germany. But even in the area I live in I do know people who fence along with schools and classes for fencing. Not to mention, based on Gabriel's own swordsmanship, fencing could very well be a family thing. Being multilingual isn't really impressive, as many people are multilingual, same with being a musician. The people who like him, I believe half like him for status. Chloe and Lila both are self centered and probably want to pair with him because of that status. And the other two are most likely in regards to bad writing, but despite this, I do believe that this could be the only point that you make. Though I personally don't consider Marinette a Mary sue though. I feel like that is the wrong title because I and many others personally consider her out of character a lot of the time. This isn't much of a Mary Sue but a subsection; a possession sue.
@@quietopinion9637 that's due to how they were raised, and also it's a very big Mary Sue trait to actually be able to admit when you were wrong. Like that takes a lot of strength for many people
Miraculous Lover the target is little girls, or at least that’s what Thomas said. But some of the kisses and romantic bits seem more age appropriate for kids
In my opinion most of the characters in the show are a bit like mary sues I'm not talking about chloe and Lila and Gabriel, felix. like some of their flaws are just ridiculous also when they ever do something wrong it is okay because they are kind and the problem gets fixed and they have a right to do questionable things cuz they are doing it for a good reason or because it is a high school sweetheart it is okay. If they had good flaws that would make them not so perfect innocent and sweet and they were like normal people chloe would probably just that annoying kid who tries to be mean and cool who needs attention from others cuz her parents dosent gives her any but instead she is like a really mean and evil villain when most people at her age acted like her because most people act like chloe around thay age. Chloe is just an entitled kid with money. Like most kids you meet but more exaggerated cuz it is a cartoon
I don't think he's "overcome" his backstory. Yeah, he's not a huge jerk like his dad and cousin, but he's still clearly struggling with establishing personal relationships and boundaries which are kinda why he gives the benefit of the doubt so often. He's empathetic and sympathetic, but he's also a really bad judge of character because of it.
I personally think that the reason that Adriens IQ as chat "drops" is not to make ladybug look better or to make her the main character but because when he's in custom he let's himself go (show off all his flaws, act dumber, be reckless) he doesn't have to be his "perfect" self while ladybug acts more professional (she takes things more seriously than him, she tries her best to hide her weaknesses and flaws).
Personally, while all four are generally associated with Mary Sues, I wouldn't say that they're equally important. The third trait is probably the most significant sign of a Mary Sue, with the second and first traits simply reinforcing it (and often being a symptom of the first trait). The fourth, however, is... generally more of an ancillary thing. It's common for Sues to have tragic backstories, but having a tragic backstory doesn't make a character problematic, it's generally the "the entire story warps around them" feature that's the defining characteristic. With this in mind, I wouldn't say that Adrien and Marinette having two of the four characteristics makes them equal on the Sue scales. Chat Noir has been thrown under the bus to make Ladybug look good too many times for Adrien to be a Sue, IMO, while I think Marinette, while not a Sue yet, is at distinct risk of drifting into Sue territory in season 4. Consider that her fundamental mistake at the end of Season 3 essentially sets up a tragic backstory (all of her allies, except CN himself, have just been removed from the proverbial board) while making her even MORE important to the story by diminishing the potential of the support cast and putting ALL of the responsibility of the Miraculouses, including the Guardianship, on her shoulders. Seriously, let's imagine that season 4 was where the series started and the end of Season 3 was backstory. Losing virtually all of her allies due to her own mistake while having additional responsibility thrust upon her that makes her EVEN MORE IMPORTANT despite it being her mistake that led to this happening sounds like a pretty Sue-esque backstory to me. Meanwhile, with the Peacock repaired, the battles she'll be fighting will be at the level where the showrunners might not be able to afford to let her keep making more than tokenistic mistakes without writing themselves into a corner where it's hard for her to believably come out ahead, thereby veering into fulfilling the second criteria. Adrien fulfills two of the criteria, but they're probably the criteria least characteristic of a Sue, and even if he gets character growth that makes him creep into criteria 2, I don't think there's any real chance of him fulfilling criteria 3 (if anything, he's been slipping into a sidekick role, and may end up as a genderswitched damsel in distress or even Cosmic Plaything by the end). Marinette is increasingly pushing towards the most problematic characteristic (#3), and there's a solid chance that the writers will have trouble avoiding the remaining two moving into season 4, even if the tragic backstory is more something that happened during the middle season rather than something that happened prior to the series start. This is kind of responding to both, but to summarise - Adrien might have some Sue-associated characteristics, but I don't think he's ever likely to go full Gary Stu. Despite the promise of the title, it's become increasingly clear that Marinette is definitely the protagonist who's increasingly bearing more of the responsibility while Chat Noir has increasingly been becoming more of a spear-carrying sidekick, even if Adrien is directly linked to each of the antagonists. Marinette, on the other hand, while I wouldn't call her a Sue in the current seasons, carries a strong risk of going full Sue in future seasons.
Adrain was moulded to be perfect by his controlling father. All of those talents were Gabriel's choice, not his. Marinette often thinks outside of the box and has been shown to need assistance from Adrain more than once. Adrain shows a mask to basically everyone and only really ever shows and talks to Plagg about what he's hidden behind his mask. He is a very believable character and also can exist in our world. Marinette is also another believable character there are moments where she does doubt her abilities as Ladybug and has grown to be more capable. HAwkmoth mostly focuses on negative motions when he akumatizes people though he can probably use yall extreme emotions besides anger and sorrow. He also is controlling people who often would be reckless and not properly think because of their state of mind so Ladybug and Chat Noir when thinking rationally can overcome akumas as they usually cant properly think as their anger and sorrow are mostly in control.
The fact that so many people claim Marinette's supposed "Mary Sueness" is a deal breaker and makes her a terrible character and yet when it comes to Adrien, all of a sudden I see tons of excuses for why him being a Mary Sue is actually TOTALLY fine is.... interesting to say the least.
Thank you! I thought no one else would notice. I love Adrien/Chat Noir but ironically, so many fans ride so hard for him to the point of him being borderline flawless. And that's like one of the #1 traits of a mary sue but whatever I guess 😫 Marinette bad, Adrien good. Lol
Adrien is supposed to be perfect. He still has flaws, but he has to make sure he keeps himself in check because he has to uphold an image that his father forced on him: the gentle and handsome heartthrob. It makes sense for Adrien to be that way because he was taught that anything outside of this is the worst version of himself. I would call Adrien a almost Mary Sue & I wouldn’t call Chat Noir a Mary Sue at all. I would also say that LB is almost a Mary Sue & I wouldn’t call Marinette a Mary Sue.
Except he is not a Gary Stu. His various abilities are a result of the myriad of classes in which his father puts him, such as piano or chinese, and he is not the Best in all of them, since Kagami and Marinette defeat him un fencing (marinette being her first time), Kagami is also fluent in other language (in her case french, since she grown in japan) Luka is also fluent in music (he can also write songs, unlike adrien) and Marinette surpass him in videogames. And the tragic backstory is not a Sue determinator, specially with characters such as Zuko, Homura or Katara sharing this quality
@@LM-ix7pk I love Adrien, but he is absolutely a Mary Sue. The "oh but he has to act perfect because of his dad!" excuse stopped working a long time ago when that's how he acts with the people he's closest to too - like Plagg and Nino. That is just the way he is, it's just the way they're writing him. Adrien has no flaws at all; no canonical, acknowledged ones by the show. The only reason people bend over backwards to act like it's totally fine is because yall are biased towards him. Adrien has a lot of potential as character, but he's extremely underdeveloped and is very much a Mary Sue. He has a tragic backstory and homelife, but the show never allows him to display flaws that growing up in a neglectful household would create and acknowledge such flaws. And, no, stuff like being socially awkward and naive are not real flaws, especially not the way they're portrayed in the show - those type of """""flaws"""" are exactly the type Mary Sues get. And being impulsive as Chat Noir isn't a flaw either, especially since the show presents it as a cute quirk.
I think the best way to fix Adriens character isn't exactly to fix his character- its to shift the perspective of his character. Adrien is closed off with his feelings often, not sharing much with other characters. he told Marinette a little about his pain and he talks to Plagg, but he doesn't get much time one on one with people or to himself to really explore how hes feeling. He's got trauma from failing people, as shown in the recent new york special. What he needs is a chance to step away from his responsibilities and explore what he wants and understand how many expectations are placed on him. Then as Adrien he needs to talk to Marinette about it. He already goes to her sometimes as Chat Noir, and he's starting to see that he can rely on her and talk to her. Again, see the new york special. When he has to leave, he shares that he feels as if he made a mistake. Allowing Adrien to explore his weaknesses in front of Marinette, one of his best friends, would be a good step on the path to helping him become more confident and capable as a hero. It also would help Marinette see past how perfect she finds him and support him, being a true best friend, not just crushing on her idol that she happened to know in person first. She may like him for his kindness and humor, but how she acts around him is exactly like how a fan would crush on an idol. She needs to be exposed to some of his weaknesses so her love can become more mature. Chat Noir has already reached the phase of a more mature love. He's Ladybugs partner, and gives her emotional support. He learned that its best when Ladybug doesn't know his identity, and that he can best help her as chat noir and not as a hero she knows. He knows that he needs to focus on his role in her life as it is. Again, new york special- he starts picking different roses trying to emphasize their friendship, but hes still giving her flowers and not anyone else because she still means more to him then 'just' a friend, but hes willing to be comfortable in the role of her friend and partner in heroism and not much more as long as she wants. Just giving little hints that he's still into her. Chat Noir should be given more responsibility as a hero, and maybe Ladybug should have less. I envision two scenes. One, Adrien is talking to Nino about his life at home. Marrienette overhears. (She can't directly be the one hes talking to because she'll trip over her own tongue, ruin the mood that let him share, yada yada - something always happens.) Adrien cracks just a little. Admits that he's under a lot of pressure and its hurting him. But he can't go against his father. He should also talk about all the fans looking up to him to be a specific image, a person they think they see. That doesn't give him any place he can be himself. And thats it. Nino just gives him a silent hug when Adrien asks him not to share, and Marinette leaves, realizing Adrien isn't perfect, and that she's being one of his fans that places him on a pedestal- perhaps the worst of all. So character growth for her is focusing on observing Adrien. Figuring out what she can do for him. She has everyones schedule on her calendar, maybe she finds a spot in his day right after fencing practice and sneaks him away a few minutes before the end of class with some help from Kagami to give Adrien some Honey lemon and tea or other snacks good for after a workout where they can just sit and enjoy the shade. Tell him that she thought he could use the rest, so when she realized he had a small bit of time in his schedule, she arranged for a little picnic just staring at a fountain, chatting. Alarm goes off 20 minutes later, she waves good bye, and he returns to his lesson no one the wiser, except for Kagami and Marinette who were in on it. This brings him closer to both Kagami and Marinette, so that love triangle drama doesn't have to be broken. Show creators love that for some reason. Second scene: Marinette is overrun with her regular duties. Everything is falling apart. She has to cut something out of her life for a short time, if not permanently. She goes to chat noir. Ladybug picks up the snake and cat miraculouses while giving Chat the ladybug miraculous. She needs him to temporarily be the Main hero of paris while she organizes her life. Everytime she hears news of akuma, she'll use second chance. If things look to be going well, she'll let it wear off. If things look like they're going poorly, she'll rush to his aid as Lady Boiga (Boiga is a type of cat-eyed snake) and assist him. She'll remain guardian of the box, but he's allowed to select one miraculous to keep as a spare to lend to a previously unselected single mission hero. This will give chat time to develop more problem solving skills and remind Paris Ladybug isn't the only hero, which will effectively take some of the weight off of ladybugs shoulders permanently. Of course there will be problems, maybe Lady Boiga rushes to help a couple times only to find he didn't actually need her help. She always tries to put everything on her shoulders, but she learns she can rely on Chat Noir for more than emotional support and side kickery.
I know this isn't to do with the video but do you think the yin yang that marinette got Adrien has already gotten his own one just we haven't seen it yet
I definitely agree with the comments saying that his “perfection” is part of his character conflict: he’s forced to be that way, so that’s how he’s perceived. But, maintaining this image makes him so afraid of disappointing people (namely his father and Ladybug) that it gets in the way of his judgement. Eg: the New York Special. Because of how harshly Gabriel reacts to any little mistake (The Collector), he’s terrified of disappointing Ladybug so doesn’t tell her he’s leaving Paris. When she is angry, he believes there is no way he can be forgiven, which causes him to renounce Plagg (again, due to his father’s overreactions). So yeah, there are very clear consequences to this image, but it doesn’t really show through as Adrien. Linked to this idea, I think a good way to steer him away from the other Mary Sue traits would be to greater explore his social struggles from being isolated during his childhood. I like that they explored this a bit in the New York Special. His inability to read other people is shown, but he’s still portrayed as quite charismatic, even if oblivious. I would like to see more genuine issues that come from inadvertent miscommunications, struggles with everyday interactions/building friendships, and perhaps a realization that he has a difficult time with this: it would make his backstory much more real and relevant.
Maybe if his chatnoir persona (which I believe to be his ACTUAL personality) merged with his civilian one he could be less "perfect". Also... since he isn't OP he can develop his hero habilities, which wouldn't make him a Mary Sue, because he actually worked hard to obtain said skills.
I’m fine with their characters, that’s basically the reason why I watch MLB, I like Marinette’s character the way it is, sure there are mistakes but no one is perfect
He could be BUT he does not have the most annoying features of this type of character Adrien never get away with everything nor make others look bad or less good
I think that Adrien and chat noir's character is so different you can almost say that they are two new characters. So I'd say that Adrien is a Mary Sue. But chat noir isn't. So it's kinda equal?
Either way I think most of us can agree that adrien definitely has more potential that the writers don't use. I personally really want more moments where he truly lashes out or can't handle holding the " Perfect model" Facade, since that's what it's supposed to be. His biggest fears and things that truly don't make him happy are not really shown and he rarely expresses how upset and crushed he is when he can't do things or is alone. Tdlr: the writers should use more intense emotions more often and have him show what he feels
He is seen as perfect by people because of how he must act in real life, but adrien doesn't know how to act because he's never really had friends, and his father is distant from him, and people probably tend to use him like liela. But also his back story I don't think he's over come it that much but I don't think he's much of a mary sue, so ya thanks for reading (if y'all even felt like reading that much😂)
Well, Adrian is oblivious to Marinette. I mean, the girl practically confesses and he doesn't get it. Of course she denied when he asked her, but his assumption that people never lie is just, naive.
I don't think category 4 should be a factor for being a mary sue. Having a tragic backstory doesn't make you boring or more perfect. Having overcome it does, but he clearly didn't. He can't really meet his friends, he is basically locked into his room, nobody is allowed to visit him. All those are points that basically counterbalance his positive aspects.
Adrien’s character is literally about him being forced to be perfect which is why his cat noir side is everything he can’t be at home, I wouldn’t call that a Mary Sue because a Mary Sue would be naturally perfect and has a lack of struggles which he isn’t because he is forced to be perfect which is why he struggles a lot and he’s only perfect because his father wants him to be but that’s not what he wants, so I wouldn’t even say half Sue cuz he works hard for the things he’s good at and is forced to be perfect which isn’t the same as a Mary Sue because a Mary Sue like character is naturally perfect and doesnt struggle, yes Adrien is perfect but that’s because he has to be perfect, even tho he’s perfect, he still struggles
I don't think that having a tragic backstory make a character a Mary sue, its more dependant on if it doesn't actually negatively affect them, which isn't the case for Adrian at all, it impedes on his social skills for starters
They are both Mary Sue, and I said on the previous video is that Ladybug, and chat noir should have focus episodes, one on chat, and the other on ladybug, and maybe to fix his home life story have him have moments with his fathers assistant, have her act like a mother that he needed, and show them having bonding moments, especially with his bodyguard, make Adrian form a little family with the people who kind of take care of him
The whole mary sue things actually works with adrien (in my opinion) because he recognizes it. He knows people think he’s perfect and he struggles with that. It’s a very well-written way to turn a stereotypical tragic hero into an unexpected great character. The only thing that could be change is that maybe, even for just an episode, he leaves Paris and starts heroing in another part of france, like nightwing in BTAS or spider-man when he went to boston.
the thing is, they were kind of designed as characters this way, to compliment the yin yang, they have opposite traits that also work with eachother, they have the powers of creation and destruction, one fights and keeps the enemies distracted while the other uses the information he collects to make a plan, they aren't exact opposites per se but i did notice between these two vids they each had one half of the whole of a mary sue, basically the show is pushing that they complete each other
hes got some sort of manufactured perfection, his dad literally says "isnt he flawless? adrien, my son, hes the image of perfection dont you think?" like hes put a lot of effort and thought into creating that image. still, somehow doesnt feel too perfect, since he's clueless as fuck which balances a lot of it for me :D
It's manufactured, Gabriel bought him the best teachers he could buy so Adrien would be as skilled as he's, it has all to do with realized potential, the thing is Adrien's realized potential doesnt make him anywhere near as perfect, as Gabriel expects him to be, it only puts in at like Entry level of what it's expected of him.
Ok here is the thing tho. I completely understand where you’re coming from and I even agree with some of the points you make! Yet I find that there is one huge thing that really makes the entire argument switch directions: how the fandom and show creators view Adrien or Marinette. For Marinette, a huge part of the fandom adores her! Thomas Astruc has nicknamed her his daughter and left and right praises her, as well as the entirety of season three was literally him pressing in the fact that she’s perfect and constantly screwed over, almost like he wants her to be a Mary Sue! Like hell, Marinette stalks and steals and does some stuff which frankly can be used against her in court, and she’s still off the hook, and has to do nothing but say “oh sorry UwU” and starts ranting about how horrible her life is. With Adrien tho, Thomas continuously says in his tweets and social media that he is the side kick and that he’s not the main star of the show because he’s not necessary. The fandom also doesn’t give Adrien a nice time, and every time he does something that doesn’t include swooning over marinette and/or ladybug, he’s called a clown and a jerk, and even when he dies he is called a pervert and a sexual harasser which can’t take not for an answer. So yeah! Both characters are written badly, but here is the thing: the way the fandom and crew constantly justifies marinette and treats Adrien badly really makes it so that Marinette is the Mary Sue because reality is? What the show creators and the fandom have to say about a character is a huge factor about them. If you have Mary Sue traits but you’re constantly shit over by people for it, it makes you much less of a Mary Sue then someone who will constantly get justified
You should do something like this but on Chloe and how the show ruins most of her character and the development...they had a chance to up her character to make her nicer (when she saved lady bug from a zombie chat) and (when she was trying to save Adrian from her mother's gold dust thing) but when the time came marionette basically threw it in her face and her mother's by saying how awful they both were instead on making the points on how Chloe changes and it's her mother's neglect she's the way she is
adrien in the intro looks like hes tring to beat her so badly and yet he fails even with the face and everything and its funny how marinette is like easy
i think that marinette is much more of a mary sue than adrien because adrien’s character is really multi-faceted and interesting, and is an overall main accessory to the plot. anytime he is the main focus of an episode, there are huge things that happen. whereas, with marinette, she is well liked, has had 3 guys crushing on her (both as marinette and ladybug), and her character’s backstory isn’t heavily rooted in the plot, like adrien’s is. adrien exhibits mary sue characteristics, but that makes his life more difficult (i’ll tell you why in a second), whereas a typical mary sue has all of these as a help to them. the fact that his character has no flaws is detrimental in episodes like gorizilla, when he is chased around by paparazzi. and i would argue that he isn’t perfect/better than everyone else. kagami is shown to be an equal/better fencer, and the reason he is such a jack of all trades is because he has taken lessons and worked really hard to improve on said skills. as stated in the video, he can act impulsive and not think before he acts, which is an extreme flaw that causes chat blanc to happen, as well as things like what happened party crasher and it is seen when he is aspik. his sue-like traits don’t make him a mary sue, they enhance his character to fit in with the narrative and make the story move along. he is nowhere near as close to becoming a full-blown sue as marinette, for that reason. marinette, however, checks way more boxes than adrien and is much closer to becoming a sue, which would be very disappointing, but at the rate that she’s descending into that territory i would not be surprised.
Saying Adrien is a Mary sue, is like saying Isabella madrigal from encanto is a Mary sue. Isabella acts perfect to impress her family. Same here. Adrien is expected to be perfect because his father wants to present a perfect image to everyone. Adrien is a deeply flawed person like anyone else. As cat noir, he becomes a completely different person; he turns from being the "perfect model boy" , to the reckless, flirtatious, funny *cat noir* . He acts like that because he wants to feel free from his horrible, abusive life. So, in short, *no* Adrien is not a Mary sue.
Hmmm... maybe they could start to show the psychological effects of his father being distant, of his lack of a support group, of the fact that his mother was stolen from him so suddenly. Throw in little moments where he begins to lose his composure. All of that isolation really should’ve made him a lot different from how he is. Ima be honest... Felix from the miraculous anime pitch was probably a good example of that. He pushes others away and seems cold and distant, but that was a direct result from the fact that his father wasn’t there to comfort him as much after the loss of his mother. And because he never really had any to rely on. So now he’s even closer to Chloe and it’s even harder to feel he should stop being friends with her because she was actually there for him in his saddest times. Also those sudden losses of composure could be signs of anxiety/ptsd from the lack of security and comfort in his childhood. So yeah. There sadly isn’t much that could be done without completely changing his character or personality. Kinda wish they just kept the original idea for him and went with it or smth.
Let's look at this in a slightly different way and compare Marinette, Ladybug, Cat Noir, and Adrien. Essentially perfect: Marinette? I almost laughed. No. She's quick to judgment, she's always making excuses for why she can't be around Adrien, let alone actually confess, she tends to make very bad descisions when she's upset or stressed, she lies, etc. She's a very flawed character. Ladybug? Well, while of course since they are the same person there will be a bit of overlap here generally speaking yes, Ladybug is essentially perfect. Her plans always work, she's very confident in her abilities, and is a natural leader. Cat Noir? Nope, he's rash and reckless, often doesn't take his superhero responabilties as seriously as he should, and generally tends to make some mistakes and poor choices. Adrien? YES! oh my goodness, give me one thing he has done wrong? And what are his biggest flaws? Oh he's understandably socially unaware and too trusting. So of the four he actually fits this category the most. Always makes the right decision: Marinette? No. Plain and simple. Kagami is the greatest example of this. Ladybug? More than Marinette but she's made some big plot altering mistakes, as pointed out in the previous video. Cat Noir? No, as I said he's rash and reckless and has made some dumb descisions but this is less prominent than Marinette's mistakes. Adrien? Name me one mistake that effects the plot. Now I won't say he makes none but very few and all inconsequential. Makes other characters look bad: Marinette? I don't see too many examples here. I understand the argument in Gamer but they did explain that she plays all the time with her father and it's not like she gets new skills all the time that she never had before. So even if you see this as an example, it's only one. Ladybug? Sure I get the arguement, Ladybug always shines above everyone else. So yes. Cat Noir? Not really Adrien? Similar to Marinette, I don't see too many cases here but I will say he has more random skills than Marinette does. Fencing, modeling, acting, piano, Chinese, Morse code (I know this was as Cat), Basketball, etc. I understand these are explained by his upbringing and I agree my point is that Marinette's gaming was explained as well. Overall he almost always looks good but not by making others look bad Tragic backstory: (and yes, I realize many argue this isn't a good category) no point in separating these Marinette/Ladybug? 😂 Yeah no. The closest she comes to this is that she was bullied by Chloe Adrien/Cat Noir? ... If you need me to explain this, you haven't seen the show. He couldn't possibly check this box more! So overall out of the 4 categories: Marinette fits 0, Cat Noir fits 1, Ladybug fits 2 1/2 - 3, Adrien fits 3. Of course this is dependant on the Mary Sue qualities you judge them against but I'm going by the video.
@@quietopinion9637 he is more interesting than Marinette. Do you have a brain? Adrien isnt bland. He is the most well written character in the show and his family drama is interesting. Can you tell me how Marinette is an interesting character
Maybe they did 1/2 sues because it’s a partnership. Marinette is far from consider perfect while Adrien is considered perfect. As for the counter parts, it’s opposite. Ladybug is considered perfect and Cat Noir is considered the furthest thing from perfect. They might’ve done that to express the yin and yang effect between the two. The real perfect mix of characteristics.
real reason is actually feminism. You can see that on Thomas's (the creators) twitter A few people asked him to give Chat more screen time, because he is the second protagonist and an equal to ladybug. Thomas replied with something like "You dont like female lead. You are sexist" or some other bullshit. Look it up.
You can especially feel the favoritism towards Ladybug in season 4. Heck Chat noir is almost like a background character now. he only comes at the very end and then goes away
I feel like you didn’t really mention most of Adrien’s traits as Chat Noir when discussing his personality, focusing more on the mask that he’s forced to wear...
Exactly, He is being forced to be Perfect. Something everyone wants their child to be. But Adrien's dad just spent time and money on him that is why he is as "perfect" as he is
I think from the start it would have made sense if he was awkward and grew more into his social side because like you said Chloe was his only friend growing up
![ฮักเทื่อสุดท้าย - บอย ศิริชัย [OFFICIAL MV]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-1PoPoQ-B-k/mqdefault.jpg)
If Adrien were to be a protagonist in an anime, it’d be a harem anime.
@@ramu-silly he seems like he'd hate all the attention.
@@onyxstyx9552
Lol exactly.
He'd be another Tenchi😂
Robert Sanders Or a Kirito.
I mean, he kinda already is lmao
I think the thing for him is that, he sort of is a Mary Sue on surface level, but he doesn’t *want* to be. His Cat Noir persona basically gets rid of any Mary Sue-ness while Marinette is especially Mary Sue-like as Ladybug.
This is true. Marinette's personality is not a Mary Sue though. Ladybug is. Adrien is. Cat Noir isn't. They are pretty well balanced in other words. I think Marinette's Sue qualities just end up standing out more since she's the main focus.
Kabsage IGJ agreed. Ladybug is a Mary Sue. She always saves the day, knows how to make the perfect plan and she gets praised for being the strong superheroine even tho she abused her power. But then Marinette is extremely flawed, even more than her alter ego. I kind of like these opposite parallels between their superhero identities to their civilian identities
MainLineEngine112 I think they’re both like that. Adrien and Ladybug appear perfect, Adrien has tons of talents and Ladybug is a superhero who always has the right plan. Butt Adrien’s also made all the wrong choices about Lila and Chloe, and ladybug’s done a lot of wrong choices mainly because of Adrien (like the Lila thing or desperada). Which is why Marinette and chat have each other on a pedestal, I think when they get to know each other better they’ll learn that neither is perfect, they both have flaws but they can try to be better.
@@robylopezvi I agree with you. Neither are perfect, they just kind of appear that way espeically when compared to their other personalities.
Kabsage IGJ yes exactly!
Adrien is supposed to be perfect. That's literally said in the show. The image of Adrien Agreste who is the son of Gabriel Agreste is supposed to be perfect. But that's just an image. When he's Chat Noir or when he's alone by himself you can see him struggling with that image and wanting to break free and just do whatever the hell he wants. So, I think it's interesting how Adrien is forced to be perfect even though he doesn't want to be and how when he's Chat Noir he is showing his recklessness and flaws. I can't wait for the day when he's going to snap as Adrien and just break his perfect image. Then everyone will finally meet him for an adorable dork that he actually is. So I disagree. He's not Mary Sue. There's a difference between being perfect and forced to be perfect.
Yes, that's exactly what I said, too! 100%agree!
Oh yeah that's what I'm waiting to see in season 4, Adrian finally snapping, probably get to be rebellious against his father. That's also why I want to see Adrian get mad or Petty in his normal form, since we seen it in cat Noir form.
Nachelle Henderson yess!
Yes! 100% agree with you on that
bruh you are so correct
I think the Mary sueness is part of his character, and that it's pretty much fine.
Me too. I feel like "being perfect" is kind of the point of his character... dunno lol
Aesthetical Dreams if I’m being honest, I’m seeing some hypocrisy
Aesthetical Dreams Yeah. Of course some have explained otherwise he isn’t really perfect, but some people are believing it and are attempting to justify it.
Aesthetical Dreams Fair. Some are being sexist. Others brought up good points. I thought Adrien was perfect until someone coherently explained Adrien’s true personality resides in Chat Noir. Which made me realize that persona is extremely problematic. Marinette’s personality is Ladybug. When put like that, yeah, Adrien isn’t a Gary Stu, but some don’t think this way and are attempting to justify his perfectness, which is sexist.
@Aesthetical Dreams I saw it from both sides tbh. but I mostly think it has to do with how the characters are represented in the story. for me, their personalities isn't what makes marinette a mary sue, it's how they interact and present themselves. adrien is _forced_ to look perfect because of his dad. that's his image as a model. so when he's chat noir, he acts in ways he'll never be able to as adrien. which makes up for it. why he acts impulsive and quick to anger.
marinette doesn't have that. that was one of my main points of calling marinette a mary sue and adrien wasn't.
I have a lot more points, but I don't want to rewrite my comment here lmao. but if you want to read my comment, I tried to look at it from both sides.
but I think a lot of it is, is that people just don't know the difference between a mary sue and common character tropes, so they just combine them together (which is wrong).
One thing I never understood how ladybug is stronger than chat like he’s took lessons and shit
This!!!!!!
Strength wise, the only explanation can be that Marinette's got muscles from her dad
@@igiveuponnames6860 bruh she doesn't exercise regularly. Even if you do have muscles, you need to have combat skills to complement that. I know you are joking but just wanted to say.
edit- also she skinny as hell.
The miraculous gives them their powers which includes strength all these were explained in the show and that's y he got used to his powers faster than marrinet.
I always thought he should be stronger in attack, being, y'know destruction, whilst Ladybug/marinette should be more defence based as creation
I honestly think he's still not much of a Mary-Sue, especially compared to Marinette. His wins are so few and far between that having him step up wouldn't even be frowned upon because we've been waiting so long for him to have his time in the sun. If he did suddenly start being a more competent superhero, at least it would feel earned and something to cheer on compared to Marinette who always gets everything and wins often to the point of it being rather boring to watch. Also, because Chat Noir is his true self vs his civilian self being fabricated, I can't say he's a definite Sue because his skills and fame were crafted to fit his father's brand. He had to take Mandarin to be multilingual and impress people, he was forced to act a model for his father's fashion line, he has to be nice to people so he doesn't ruin his father's image or his own. As Chat Noir, he could do whatever he wants, and he often is revealed to be less than perfect compared to Marinette who often gets away with everything in her civilian life and is treated like the perfect superhero by many in Paris. Even if Adrien is a half-Sue, and that's being fair, he still has so many explainable qualities that definitely keep him from truly being a Mr. Perfect, again compared to Marinette.
Agreed, you said it perfectly
Christian Circle I feel like the biggest difference between them is struggle. While Adrien is rich, clearly Marinette never had to deal with anything moneywise like him so we can cross that of the list. But Marinette doesn’t usually struggle in a way that actually affects her character. That’s why the moment where she was vulnerable to cat noir because of her insecurities about being LB was good, cuz it seemed like she actually struggled for something. But with Adrien, his struggles are shown to affect him. He struggles with an emotionally abusive father, an over-sheltered life, and (even if this one isn’t shown as much) a lot of pressure to “stay on brand”. He emotionally struggles more than Marinette and it’s harder to relate to someone who doesn’t struggle.
I think adrien is kind and nice because that's how he is as a person. Not because he has to because of his dad. He's still sweet and kind when he's chat noir😊
so maybe this was the true meaning of ying and yang in the show. They compliment each other in a very special way
Efren Arjona I agree to an extent. I do believe that Adrien is naturally kind and caring, but his kindness leads to passivity. Although Adrien is a nice person, he is very passive when others do things that he personally doesn’t like. For example, with Chloe he doesn’t call out her behavior and when he does (he barley calls out her behavior anyways), he just weakly criticizes Chloe, kind of how Tikki doesn’t scold Marinette when she does something that is obviously wrong. Ik i didn’t explain this right 😅 but my point is that Adrien’s kindness is so big to the point of passivity due to the fact that he is scared of ruining his image which is why he is sometimes reluctant to call out people who need to be called out
So if you fuse both of them, they become full on mary sue
I had the same idea in the last video
What happens with the second half that is 0 Mary Sue?
so maybe their children will be mary sues?
@@soupyramen3752 but they wouldn't have tragic backstory, unless you are suggesting something...
@@kociarzultimate384 I suggest tragic backstory has little to nothing to do with a char being mary sue.
I actually like Adrien a lot more than Marinette. He's much more interesting to me than Marinette.
Agree I used to never care about marinette when me and my 4 yr old daughter watched miraculous
Now that we finished s3 she got crazier and we gonna keep going for some development of her
@@laroyalford4596 season 2 was great because it showed the development in characters but season 3 just dropped all the potential it gave
He's been made to be sympathised with when he actually does many questionable things tbh
@@quietopinion9637 like what tho
@Antoine Gédéon on Tumblr people think Adrien never faces consequences and poor Marinette suffers for his mistakes. 🤡 🤡
The fact that people can barely name 10 episodes where Adrien is the main focus (and that's debatable) pretty much means he can't be a Mary Sue.
For the first point, saying he's essentialy perfect because "the positives outweigh the negatives" is straight up wrong. Either you're perfect or you have negatives. While Adrien's side of his personality could be considered perfect (even if it mostly comes from the image his father forces onto him), his Chat Noir side isn't even close to meeting this criteria. If it was just that he's not the brains of the team, maybe he could be a Mary Sue. But he's useless in many episodes, either being mind controlled or incapacitated until Ladybug has to save him. The fact you literally said "he's robin to her batman" is enough, really.
The "tragic backstory" point is also completely unnecesarry for a Mary Sue, as it isn't unique or even a requirement to be one. Many side characters and villains have that.
I think Adrien having a tragic backstory is the reason why he is so loved by the fandom, even more so than Marinette. A lot of people can relate to Adrien’s experiences like having a controlling parent, loneliness, a toxic household, etc. So because of what Adrien has gone through, he feels more fleshed out and human.
Adrien is better than Marinnette, peridot. He has everything to be the perfect main characther.
Except having tragic backstory is normally done to earn sympathy points which is what you go for in Gary stu. Also saying isn't perfect is a false dichotomy if those flaws don't seriously effect your positives.
@@fightingmedialounge519 However, I think that boy is going to snap one day. Keeping up a perfect reputation is very draining. Especially when the only one he can vent to is a talking cat.
first of all he isnot useless gurl and second stop comparing him to marinatte the show is not only based on her half of the fandom is watching this show for him she is not perfect if you have seen all the episodes she makes many mistakes and starts getting depresed but catnoir is always there for her he always sacrifices himself then how could he be useless
adrien said in an episode no one is useless not even chloe
I think the difference between Adrien and Marinette in the discussion of Mary Sue is that with Marinette, it feels like the show is wanting her to make her look good and act flawless and when she fails, it's treated like it's nothing to worry about. Like Marinette does have some issues like the problem of being a hero but it doesn't stick with her. The show makes her perfect and if she fails, that's a little burp in her story.
With Adrien, I will admit he does have the components of being a Mary Sue but having the components of a Mary Sue doesn't always make the character into a Mary Sue
For example, Saitama is the strongest character we have seen in One punch man but I don't see him as a Mary Sue. I see him as the most truest neutral character ever. He isn't aware of the world, he does non hero things, and he only thinks of I wouldn't say himself bc he's not self centered but he needs something to happen in front of him to notice and do something. He's a good person but he's a non active person. I don't feel like the show is trying so hard to make him look good like the show treats him like a soft boiled egg while everyone around him is shocked or is admiring him.
I think that's what makes him different from a Mary Sue. The way the character acts and how the show treats them is what makes someone a Mary Sue.
I feel like this applies to Adrien. Yes, he's almost perfect and he has a tragic backstory yes. But I don't feel like the show is using that as a crutch of him as a character. Adrien can be reckless, a pushover, and other things. And while he affects Marinette in her decision making that's part of her character and it makes sense for her to do it.
What doesn't makes sense it that a villain almost getting Marinette's earrings when Marinette is captured, stops doing it bc "they're trapped" is the show bending backwards to make Marinette look good by escaping. Or how Marinette is the ONLY StRonGeSt pERsOn from history to hold all miraculous is dumb and trying to making Marinette look awesome.
So in the end, yes. Adrien has the components of a Mary Sue, but that doesn't make him into a Mary Sue. It's how the show treats him or how everyone acts around him is what makes him a Mary Sue. Think of it how his characterization and backstory is a foundation of the show. You can't remove it and make the show better. But with Marinette, it's the presentation on the foundation and you can tweak it up a bit to make the show better.
That's my thoughts
You pretty much nailed it
Yep. Also the part where you talked about the villains acting dumb around ladybug when they're about to get her earrings I was like "oh my gosh yes! The Lady Wi-Fi episode is a perfect example for that" I remember re-watching that episode. and the part where she trapped ladybug up against the wall I was like "couldn't hawkmoth just tell lady wifi to grab ladybugs earrings while ladybug tries to fight her off instead of making things MORE complicated?" (Sry if this comment was too long)
@@miss_chelles1338 Sure the Lady WiFi moment was dumb but it's not an example of Marinette being a Mary Sue, it's simply plot armor. How about when Anansi was trying to get Cat Noir's "earrings" is that proof of him being a Mary Sue? No it's again plot armor. The good thing about Cat Noir though is he generally has a really great way to prevent his Miraculous from being taken. Activating his Cataclysm. And a few times when a villian has gone for Marinette s earrings it'll be Cat Noir that prevents it and vise versa.
In order for something to fit the 3rd category, it has to be directly making the Mary Sue look good not just general plot armor. Especially when said armor is pretty evenly applied.
You want to know a character in the show that dumbs down others in order for her to seem impressive and smart? Let me introduce you to Ms. "The napkin could have gouged Max's eye out" Rossi.
Omg agreed, especially that marinette/ladybug is always made to seem better than others by making them look bad or stupid, and they tend to do that using chat noir, when we know he is actually really smart
that's exactly what I said! it's how they are presented and involved in the story, not their personalities.
I would like to add that Adrien had to be trained in Piano, Mandarin Chinese, and martial arts. All of these things things that make him "perfect" is a crafted image. The girls that chase after him are only like that because of that crafted image and nothing else. Even if he is a genuinely sweet guy, everything else about him is forced into being. Marinette, on the other hand, has guys chasing after he despite her clumsiness. She's always being her true self and had people falling in love with her anyway. She rarely ever struggles, she always knows what to do as a superhero or herself, she's just "such a genius", that none of her convoluted plans go awry, and she can easily get away with being a brat to someone and still be loved by all the next day. I honestly can't root for her because there's never any stakes. You know for sure that she will win and it won't be exciting. If the same were to happen to Adrien as Chat Noir or himself, I would be so proud because he often loses or has to take a fall for Ladybug and seeing him come on top would be actually enjoyable to watch. I'd be rooting for him.
Other than Kagami when has she gotten away with being a brat to someone and all is forgiven? Certainly not Lila, she made a life long enemy out of her.
The thing with Lila is that she is the villain, though. It's in her "blood" to oppose the main heroine and try to make her life miserable. Also, Lila's personality literally wouldn't let her forgive Ladybug/Marinette. Her whole being is built on lies, something that Marinette hates and tries to expose at every turn. This makes her an enemy in Lila's eyes. Lila needs her lies to be believed in order to stay in power so any threats to her lies are threats to her and those threats must be eliminated. Marinette is such a threat and so Lila opposes her. Literally, the only reason why she is against Marinette/Ladybug is because Marinette tried to expose her for the liar she is. Marinette knows she's lying so Lila must destroy her before she can convince others to see the truth. Hence, all of her attempts to discredit Marinette. Lila hates when not all of the sheep believe her, she hates when someone is aware of her lies and tries to tell others. Lila is obsessed with Adrien but probably doesn't like him much due to him not believing her lies. He will not expose her though so he gets off easy. Marinette is the opposite; loud in her ways of disapproval, quick to try and discredit Lila.
So ye, the situation with Lila is the way it is because it was designed this way. Lila needs to be against Marinette so Marinette's behavior is not forgiven.
@@halleysh Sure I understand all that. Of course Lila is the enemy and so isn't going to forgive Ladybug even after she apologized. But I was looking for more examples that prove "she can easily get away with being a brat to someone and be loved by all the next day" one person (Kagami) doesn't prove a pattern.
@@kabsageigj8941 ye, I understand it and well, it's not like you're much wrong. I'd just say that Lila isn't probably the best example to use to say that Marinette's brattiness has consequences since her role is what it is and her not forgiving Marinette is a must for the plot to go the way it goes.
Also, sorry for the late reply, I didn't get a notification
Is Adrien a Mary Sue? For me, the answer is no. As for being underutilized? Hard yes. Now, this will be a very long comment and I will type a lot, so just be warned now.
There are three main reasons why I believe he isn’t a Mary Sue type character.
One, his skill set was learned, not just gifted to him. Adrien may be fluent in multiple languages, knows how to fence, and may be a good gamer, but all of those traits were learned rather than just given to him. He still actively takes lessons with them as well.
He isn’t a master above all else by any means. Kagami has been shown to be on par if not better than him when it comes to fencing, Marinette in fact, is a better gamer, and he’s about on par with Sabrina in terms of grades as stated by Marinette. His skill set may be well versed, and he may be a jack of all trades, but he isn’t a master of everything like most Mary Sues are.
Two, Adrien’s family drama and backstory may seem like a Mary Sue backstory, but that isn’t what defines them being a Mary Sue. To me, what defines them as a Mary Sue is the fact that they don’t struggle or have any problems from said backstory.
Adrien isn’t like that.
He is aware of the problems around his family, and clearly struggles with the disappearance of his mother. He has made harsh and dumb decisions surrounding that fact too. He ran away from home multiple times causing unnecessary fear, actively made a public nuisance by throwing a party, and had a full blown mental crisis after she was revealed in the cryogenic chamber.
Now, one may argue that it’s because he’s a Sympatheic Sue, a brand of Mary Sue who’s sole purpose is to go through as many traumatic things as possible to gain sympathy from the audience. This brings me to the last point.
Three, Adrien’s character in the story isn’t just being a punching bag for trauma. He doesn’t take that trauma lying down and not do anything about it.
He has been shown trying to overcome that struggle in any way he can time and again, wanting to spend time with his father, asking questions about his mom, and even groaning at Ladybug of all people when he feels as if he isn’t being told the whole picture despite them being partners as seen in Syren. He wants answers and wants the truth. He doesn’t just sit there and go “Oh, woe is me!”, not questioning anything.
As for being underutilized, Adrien is an underutilized character, no doubt about it. However, that’s most likely due to the way the story is structured surrounding his family.
Do you know why there are almost no episodes where Adrien seems to be the main focus? It’s because of the fact that his family is drowning in spoiler-esque plot. Pretty much every episode where Adrien’s family seems to be the focus, we’re given new information surrounding the overarching plot.
Bombarding us with info about his family will probably ruin the mystery of it all and severely limit the writing material they have at their disposal. So, to compensate for the 20+ episodes they have to write each season, they right one-off villains interacting with Marinette.
Marinette as a civilian, not Ladybug, has almost no plot relevance in the overarching plot. Much of the plot circulating around her stems from her being Ladybug. This makes it a million times easier to write episodes around her as a civilian rather than Adrien. In fact, Adrien and Chloé are really the only two characters where their civilian sides are actually important to the overarching plot.
(Please keep in mind that I’m saying overarching. Characters may be very important one episode, but it’s most likely never touched upon again due to the episodic nature of the series. Think Max and Startrain, for example.)
To close off, Adrien, in my eyes, is not a Mary Sue, but rather a character that has too much on his plate plot wise that the writers can’t get rid of it immediately like the others.
I read all of it, and it’s perfect. I love all your opinions, and you worded very well! Idk if this is too much trouble, but what do you think of Marinette?
Oh, Marinette. She’s... a character to say at least.
Again, this will be a long. I am warning you all now. So, now that you have been, let me begin.
To start off, don’t get me wrong, Marinette is an incredibly entertaining character. In fact, in Season 1, she was one of my favorites alongside Chat and Chloé. The skill set she has makes sense, her character is justifiable, and being an awesome superhero is all pretty good, and I have no problem with it. If you asked me if I thought she was a Mary Sue in Season 1, I would have told you “No” straight out.
However, with the direction they’re taking the show... some problems have risen up surrounding her character and what it means to be Ladybug.
Before I begin however, I want to clarify I’m not going to be touching on her “stalkerish” behavior surrounding Adrien. That is a topic for another day entirely, and much of it is for comedic effect.
As for Marinette being a Mary Sue now, she is teetering on the border of it. She’s right there, and if she falls, it’s all over.
Her character has so many different interactions, moments, and choices that make it hard to critically analyze all of them properly without leaving something out. However, I have noticed a few running themes surrounding her character that are much easier to analyze.
A running theme as a civilian with her character is having a justifiable reason for the things that happen to her, but the end result being blown absolutely out of proportion, whether it is good or bad.
For example, her skill set as a civilian is justifiable, being a good designer, baker, and gamer. She’s incredibly creative and a great choice for being the Ladybug. However, because of those skills, she meets so many in-show famous people that are immediately drawn to her for no other reason than plot convenience.
Out of all people, she’s chosen as “Ladybug” in Frightingale, becomes the cover artist for Jagged Stone, and Audrey Bourgeois, a notorious critic of fashion and design, practically gushed over a girl she just met, even offering her a trip to New York on the spot. That just seems... odd, doesn’t it?
As for her skills as Ladybug, being incredibly creative and a quick thinker is a good fit. However, here’s the thing. She never really struggles most of the time. We never really see her struggle to figure out a solution, we never see her struggle with wielding a new Miraculous (I’m looking at you Kwamibuster and Reflekdoll), and we never really see her get captured or lose a fight needing to be saved by Chat Noir.
This is why Sandman was one of my favorite episodes. Ladybug had to adapt to the fact she couldn’t summon her Lucky Charm. She needed Chat’s help more than ever that episode, and the boy was actually utilized for once instead of being pawned off for the millionth time.
As for her sudden power-ups, practically almost all of the problems with them stem from the fact that the show hyper-fixates on Marinette in her “day-to-day” life before moving to the akuma fight.
Now, for Season 1, that worked fine. It was an introductory season, introducing the heroes, villains, Miraculous, and the dynamics between her class and other people. However, Season 2 was when it started to change.
Seasons 2 and 3 had Marinette becoming closer to Master Fu. The plot and world building was starting to progress with this interaction.
However, the quota didn’t change. The episode structure didn’t morph to meet this shift in dynamic to properly explain the lore of the show. Most of the things surrounding Fu and Ladybug in Season 2 and 3 just kind of came out of nowhere with no buildup or prior knowledge. This is why her becoming the Guardian just kind of… happened. No appropriate buildup surrounding it either aside from mentioning it in passing at the end of Feast.
We never really see Fu train Ladybug to be the Guardian. We never see him do anything to prompt Ladybug in case he needs to end up leaving. Fu was supposed to be a mentor, but all he really did was drop snippets of out-of-the-blue exposition when it was convenient for the writers.
The show is hyper fixated on Marinette, but we never really see any of the things that truly matter in the overarching plot without them coming out of left field. They blow her strengths out of proportion, and make her practically unstoppable as Ladybug outside of a few instances.
Now, I’m not saying to make her suddenly incompetent, a damsel, or just overall nuisance to try and get rid of her Sueness. In fact, that would actually ruin the show ever further. She’s so close to being a Sue, but there is a way to remedy it.
Simply widen the scope of the show outside of Marinette, fix the way the episodes are structured, and allow us to see proper continuity of the show.
With it, they can...
- Show us meaningful character interactions where Marinette isn’t even present.
- Develop the dynamics of the side characters like Alya, Nino, and especially Chloé.
- Give Luka a stronger character.
- Show us episodes centered around the villains.
- Let Ladybug lose her footing once in a while to let us see her grow as a fighter.
- Make it to where her superpowers aren’t just plot devices to explain why nothing changes.
- Give us more episodes where Chat is a necessity in battle, or give him time to grow as a superhero.
Stuff like this will massively improve the quality of the show, letting it properly world build, show character, and make the world seem more authentic without Marinette suddenly becoming a completely different character. It’s the “Miraculous Universe”, not “Marinette’s Universe” after all. We don’t need to fixate on her all the time.
@@elijahrinkel3846 👏👏👏👏
I totally agree with you! Thanks for putting some of my thought out there on the Internet!
(At this point it might be the everyone over the age of 10 within the fandom's thoughts)
@@elijahrinkel3846 Best explanation I've seen
I have never agreed more with a comment
its fine that Adrien is good at everything, multilingual etc because we actually see him practicing and learning that stuff in the show, and as his dad is rich and powerful, there's a lot of pressure on him to be perfect
Him having all that is reasonable for any child to achieve assuming their parent(s) invest in him at a early, it's the basic argument for "Perfect Pitch" to begin with, never was debunked either, but it's a bit sad that there really aint a real passion behind what he does aside from maybe modelling and Marinette+Gabriel still beats him when it comes to Natural creative talent (he has the potential to become better with that as Oblivio showed though), so it's not like he got all the skills covered.
@@sebas8225 Well when he is basically forced to do all these things when is he able to find out his real passions? This where we might find his real personality because both him Chat Noir are both masks he puts on to be liked in public. Maybe he truly is of baker material xD
I honestly don't think Chloe is romantically interested in Adrien. Hear me out: she and Adrien have been friends since they were small children. After Adrien being locked up for so long, you'd think that Chloe would want to be all over him bc he was her first and only (Sabrina is more of a servant) friend.
I can definitely see that! I think she does that because she never got true and GENUINE attention from the people around her. Hell her own mother forgets her name. I think she's just overzealous with Adrien because she knows he believes in her and that they can be there for each other.
@@LyxiLynnn Damn. She's a b*tch but seeing how little love she had growing up makes me wanna cry.
@@LyxiLynnn Childhood friends are also more valuable than recent ones, for her (seeing how she treats Sabrina below Adrien Standards) Chloé likely doesnt wanna risk her childhood friendship with Adrien with a relationship chance that could ruin said friendship, but she doesnt want Adrien to have someone closer to him than her either.
Girls trying to get adrien 3:38
Kagami: Direct and straight to the point
Marinette: Silly and Hopeless ( LOL )
Chloe : Rash and Abrasive
Lila: Manipulates to get closer
THIS IS LITERALLY HALF THE SHOW SUMMED UP XD
Can't lie I love how direct Kagami is. Marinette's awkwardness is just a handful sometimes.
I honestly *don't* think Chloé loves him, I honestly thinks she's just a close friend played off in a terrible way. She seems content with her _thinking_ that they are best friends.
@@user-cc6zm8ws3g agreed
@@pelinozge3639 lol fair enough
@@Mk-xx4yz she gonna need ice for that burn LOL
1:22 you’re wrong. Marinette’s whole character revolves around Adrien not Kagami’s. You can’t even find a single episode where Marinette isn’t stalking Adrien. Kagami has a personality and goes through development. She starts off as this cold hearted person who can’t make friends and ends with becoming friends with everyone. Marinette’s gotten worse and has no overall personality
Fact
I agree with this whole heartedly. Kagami has her struggles and actually develops as a character. And she has more to her than just her character revolving around Adrien. She has her struggles with her mom, upholding her image/reputation, making friends, and have a life of her own.
I agree that Kagami's character doesn't only revolve around Adrien but it's still a big part of her arc. To compare it to Marinette, who is in every single episode and say she's had more moments simply isn't fair. Marinette has had plenty of episodes where Adrien hasn't been the focus of her thinking or even really mentioned at all. Kagami has had one, Ikari Gozen.
Kabsage IGJ name those “plenty of episodes”. Marinette has zero personality other than Adrien. Bakerix is the only episode I can name where she isn’t being a psycho
@@semolinalibra Sure. * = some interaction with Adrien but the episode doesn't revolve around her feelings for him
Mr. Pigeon*
Timebreaker*
The Pharoh
Lady Wifi
Rogercop
Darkblade*
Princess Fragrance*
Guitar Villian*
Reflekta*
The Puppeteer
Prime Queen
Befana*
Robustus
The Dark Owl
Sapotis
Frightengale*
Syren
Zombizou*
Reverser*
Anansi*
Malidikator*
Heroes Day*
Bakerix
Gamer 2.0
Weredad
Silencer
Miracular
Christmaster
Kwamibuster
Timetagger
Ladybug*
I could've included more.
I think Luka is a mary sue:
(1.They are essentially perfect):He is handsome, kind, talented, supportive brother, he respects marinette and give her time and he doesnt push her and even as a hero he used the snake miraculous better than the main protagonist adrien. And even when he got akumatized he didnt hurt anyone he just wanted to prove the truth.
I cant even think of a single disadvantage.
(2.always right and make the correct decision): He hasnt take many disicions in the show because he is a secontary character but all his acts are right i dont remember he has done something bad.
(3.make other characters look terrible to suit the mary sue): in the episode desperada ladybug gave to adrien the snake miraculous first but after months and thousands second chances he couldn't save ladybug and he always failed but then she gave the miraculous to luka and he did the job perfectly. I think his character manly make adriens character look bad because he is and the second love interest of marinette but he doesnt have any flaws he is just perfect.
(4.tragic backstory that makes mary sue looks impressive):He doesnt quite have a TRAGIC backstory like adriens but he grew up without a father and maybe in next seasons they give us more backstory to his character but the only think we know is that his mom is alone and probably raised luka and juleka all by her self. That is not that tragic but he is a boy in his teenage years without a father as a role model.
I think he is a mary sue he doesnt have any flaws he is too perfect.Thanks for reading!!!
So he can't be a supportive brother and respect Marinette? OK.
@@sierrahale804 frfr Chat Noir/ Adrien stans really don't like when respectful men appear huh?
@@quietopinion9637 yep
This. This is why I never liked Luka, he was just too perfect
@@quietopinion9637 Luka has no flaes or personality other than being kind and simping for mari
Well, since we've gotten this far...
Is Gabriel Agreste a Mary Sue?
Do it.
Do it now.
Is LILA a Mary Sue?
@@Cheetahgirl_Studios is uh...Fang a mary sue.
Idk he seems to get away with a lot of things...and acts out of character a lot for a crocodile
Poccri Peardew Nah. He’s just been treated like a dog for so long I think the poor soul actually believes he is one.
Is plagg a Mary Sue?! Dun dun dun
No, No No ! Is tiki a Mary sue
I'm actually agreeing with this guy. Adrien probably knows nothing about Sexual harassment, which, if you think about it, is probably why he doesn't stop asking Ladybug.
@Miraculously Clumsy I'm assuming, the reason why he keeps at it, is because he presumes Ladybug to be a bit "Tsunderish" consideering his childhood friend is Chloé, there's nothing to be surprised, plus it's not like Ladybug ever told him whom she loves and consideering all the fangirls he has as a civilian he probably believes he has a shot, which isnt a wrong assessment.
I would've a problem with that if Ladybug doesn't flirt back. The only thing LB has a problem with is his poor timing.
And when I watched the Felix episode, I really think LB doesn't really mind. Look at Felix who pretended to be Adrien and tries to flirt with LB, LB keeps saying no and punched him. If LB really has a problem with CN, she knew they could talk things out.
@@princessathanasia4708 okay, that's fair, and it's true that Cat Noir never cornered her to force a kiss onto her.
@Miraculously Clumsy bruh the real crep in the show is Marinette/Ladybug, she is literally a creppy stalker
I think that people don't know the difference between a "mary sue" and common character tropes. those are two completely different things.
I said this before on the video about marinette, but I'll say it again here:
*you can't measure how well a character is written by their powers. you can't measure them by their personalities.* you can't do any of that, because when it comes down to it, the characters and story are interwoven tightly. so to know a character, you need to know the story.
*characters aren't some sort of balance where you add and subtract "negative" and "positive" traits, and the net "positivity" determines if the character is a good one or not.* you can, however, judge them based on their interactions and their overall depiction of the story.
for marinette, essentially, the whole world revolves around her. and I mean the _whole_ world revolves around her. if not marinette herself, than ladybug. they discover marinette, realize that she is incredibly special, then is chosen to become a superhero. from there, a bunch of guys fall in love with her, and she has a huge group of people that love her because she's just so amazing, and on top of that gets to save paris from whatever happens that day. sound familiar?
adrien on the other hand, is _forced_ to look perfect from his father. altering his image to make sure there's no scandals and overall making him the best that he can be. he isn't actually perfect, but he is forced to be. that's why when he's cat noir, he's more reckless, impulsive, and quick to anger. he is actually made to _be_ perfect because that's his character. marinette isn't. also, the story barely revolves around adrien even though he's supposed to be a main character. you can't name ten episodes where adrien is in the main plot line.
I'm not saying that adrien is any different from marinette either, he has a lot of girls that throw themselves at him, and that they discovered how special he was and became a superhero alongside marinette. and he even is even involved with many things like fencing, chinese, modeling, and playing the piano. yet, when you look at it, it's marinette doing all the saving, she's the only one who can "save the world". adrien is often used as a decoy, or gets turned against ladybug for "angst" and "drama". he doesn't seem perfect at all as cat noir, rather as the comedy relief.
_that's_ why marinette is a mary sue. it has nothing to do with either of their personalities, but rather how they are involved in the story and how she is presented. she is presented perfect, and while she struggles _sometimes_ , it just doesn't add up to the amount of times that marinette has saved the day with ease in a matter of seconds. never giving us a chance of worry that they might not make it, or never giving us any tension because we all know how it's going to end.
plus, not to mention, that marinette is the "best ladybug" and how she is the sTrOnGeSt mIrAcUlOuS holder in the world, and that is what leaves the show dry and unwatchable.
the point: while adrien does have some characteristics of a mary sue, that doesn't make him a mary sue from the way he is presented in the story.
I enjoyed reading this but I'd like to ask, how is Marinette, specifically Marinette not Ladybug (fair since you discounted the Adrien side of him), presented as perfect? She's a bigger mess than Cat Noir is.
Kabsage IGJ personally, i’d say it’s because all of her problems are resolved by the end of the episode. it’s not that she doesn’t have flaws, it’s that her flaws don’t affect her in the long term (she doesn’t learn from those mistakes, but she also doesn’t get any form of ‘punishment’ for it either. you could put that down to the formatting of the show, but i think it’s more than just that. she’s written to be a ‘mess’, but her messiness never changes and it’s felt like it’s added on just so she is ‘flawed’. she’s awkward around adrien, and that’s about it. chat noir’s mess, on the other hand, is more than that. he acts the way he wishes he could as adrien, and so reacts that way. it’s an expression of what’s repressed in his everyday life, which is why we can accept the fact nothing changes. he also tends to learn from the mistakes he makes over the course of the show, for example with him accepting lb’s rejections slowly and as recently seen in s3, pulling away from her and understanding her reasoning behind it. anyway, sorry for the read, just my opinion lol :)
@@margaretm7488 No don't apologize, thank you for the response. I see but I also think the point is that she has yet to achieve her ultimate goal. You can say she doesn't suffer any consquences for her actions, or learn from her mistakes but Adrien is now with Kagami. That is a consquence of her inability to confess to him. And I think she will eventually learn from her previous attempts. She did suffer the consequences of getting on Lila's bad side. Her apology didn't erase her mistake that time. I also don't know that her mistake in Cat Blanc will be forgotten. Afterall she retained the memory of that event. In this type of show it'd be hard for her to suffer a big consquences from the episode itself. Is this untrue for other characters?
Kabsage IGJ i agree with you in that she still has to achieve her ultimate goal, but it doesn’t feel like she has one yet. confessing to adrien is a pretty big deal for who she is, but her inability to confess to him isn’t something i hold against her. in fact, it’s what makes her relatable despite being so perfect. i have bigger issues with episodes like animaestro where she literally works with chloe (who she hates) to bring down another girl who has done nothing but be with the guy she likes, and at the end gets to sit next to adrien in the premiere. with lila, it wasn’t a consequence because of bad judgement on her part. lila needed to be called out by someone, even if mari originally went about it in the wrong way, it was lila who held the grudge and lila who made it all happen, not marinette. it may have been a consequence, but it wasn’t the kind mari needed to advance as a character. with chat blanc, while the memory of what a simple mistake could cost her may still remain, in her present timeline, all it did was reinforce the idea that they couldn’t know who each other were, which lb was already firmly sure about in the first place. it would have been better if ladybug had turned bad and chat noir had to see why he couldn’t know her identity (though i still loved the episode, it just felt a little unnecessary and rushed in the grand scheme of the show). in the show, it is difficult for her to suffer consequences, yes, but i feel like the writers could at least try to give her consequences for things that matter. i would say that it is similar to other characters, but mari is the focus of the show and does make the biggest blunders, so it would be nice to see her progress a little more. adrien doesn’t receive many consequences, but his whole life feels like one big payback for any bad he does, plus though he’s a main character, he isn’t actually leading us through the show and we tend to see him through the eyes of mari (totally perfect) so we won’t see his consequences. i just wish as it’s aimed at kids that mari’s actions weren’t just passed by as typical girl with a crush and weren’t passing down the message that her creepiness towards adrien is okay and normal for girls because it isn’t.
i’m hopeful for s4, however, and i do it believe that mari will begin her development during it, following another stress-induced low like the end of s3. i hope you can see where i’m coming from!
An explanation that made me change my view. Thank you for this
Once again I have to say that tragic backstory is not a trait of a Mary Sue, just one that a lot of Sues have because people who write Sues think its cool to have one.
Adrien appearing perfect is a part of his character, but its also a persona he puts on as a representative of the Agreste brand. Whats important is that hes not actually perfect beyond a surface level analysis, he makes mistakes that are clearly defined by the show as mistakes rather than portrayed as either "he was right all along" or "turns out its actually better this way" like Marinette. Yes Adrien is a high morality character, but being morally a high morality character doesn't automatically make one a Sue without it being accompanied by it being a focal point of the story how morally right they are. Hes also not always the one taking the high road, and when he doesnt the show doesnt pretend like he is. When Marinette is mean to someone it practically always (if not always) turns out that while she was wrong, they were still bad people so they probably deserved it anyway.
Sorry but for the perfect part, Adrien isn't perfect, he act perfect, it's not the same! He have to act perfect, it's not his real character, so that's a 1/4 but the sad backstory doesn't make a character a Mary sue. So Adrien isn't a Mary sue. Not even a half Mary sue.
Adrien does have some Sue-ish traits, but in order to make a balanced character, you have to give them some of these traits, ya know?
But he also does have flaws. They're just more porminent when he's Chat Noir. He's reckless, impulsive, cracks jokes and puns at the most inopportune times, flirts with Ladybug during battle and sometimes can be somewhat petty when she rejects him.
As Adrien, he is lenient with Chloe and Lila, although with the latter, that doesn't seem to be the case anymore. He's too naive and forgiving. He's also oblivious to love and dense (But that also applies to Marinette too), and overall, he's too good for his own good.
And it was established to us since the first season that he has to uphold a perfect image to not ruin his father's reputation. Because of that, he was unable to be himself, and this made him feel sad as he does things just to make his father happy instead of making himself happy. But what's really irritating is that Thomas keeps on insisting that Adrien is 'perfect' even though the show proved to us over and over again that he's not and as I mentioned before, how this 'perfect' image isn't making him happy. And instead of making Marinette actually sit down, talk to him and become a REAL friend for him, Thomas instead made her obsessive with him to ridiculous levels and doesn't see anything wrong with her behavior at all. She puts him on a high pedestal and this hasn't changed in THREE seasons.
And as Chat Noir, when he can act like however he wants and say whatever that comes to his mind, he gets ridiculed, mocked and insulted by not only his partner Ladybug (Marinette), but also by the other girls who like him as Adrien like Chloe and Kagami.
So, you're telling me that in order for boys to be liked by girls, they have to put up an image of passive, perfect paragons, and when they act honest, spontaneous and true to themselves, girls wouldn't like them? Well, thank you 🙄 Even though I'm a woman, that's a horrible message to tell to boys who watch this show, regardless of their age 😑🤦♀️
Wow, I’ve always thought like this but I thought I was alone. I think Thomas likes Adrien the way he is (I think, not sure), but it’s so obvious Adrien doesn’t like this lifestyle. And besides Nino, he doesn’t have anyone to vent too, so ultimately it’s bottled up and he can finally release it when he’s Chat Noir, causing him to be reckless and all the other flaws you said above. He can’t talk to Chloe really because he’s too busy trying to help her become better, he can’t talk to Lila because... she’s Lila. He can’t talk to Kagami because besides Kagami having a crush on him, she has her own family problems. And Marinette is too busy stalking and fantasizing about him that she doesn’t realize that he isn’t okay
@@reniii8095 Thats the thing, Thomas drove himself into a corner with this Mary Sue oposites thing, now he cant change Marinette and Adrien's characters too much towards another point, into risking them to become either Mary Sues themselves or make the other character a Mary Sue.
Good video overall. The only critique I have of this video is that (for both Marinette and Adrien) whether they have a tragic back story should not be a deciding factor on whether they are a Mary Sue. This (imo) is because many complex backstories of well-written characters are never a problem. Lets take Aang from Atla for example. He has a tragic back story yet he clearly isn't a Mary Sue. From the same show, Zuko has one of the saddest (if not the most tragic) backstories in the show yet his character is loved by everyone for being so complex and well written. Or lets say Peter Parker, he has a tragic backstory. I wouldn't say he is a Mary Sue (idk about the comics tho). While yes lazy writers use it to make a character more sympathetic, good writers make it so that it gives context to the character and improves on them. It's like a hammer when building a birdhouse. The hammer can help you a lot (even tho it is technically optional) to build it, but if you use it way too much the wood will break. (I hope this metaphor makes sense).
I think if they managed to find a way for him to say/express that he doesn't like modeling, and somehow got him to quit, it would make him less of a Gary Stue (male version of Mary Sue). If they do this they could make Hawkmoth/Gabriel more sympathetic. Showing that he does care about his son. This would make the moment he finds out Adrien is Chat a lot better. Especially since when he found out in Chat Blanque, he just shrugged it off like "oh what a lovely day to find out I've been attacking my son all this time. Time to emotionally manipulate him because I clearly don't care". If you like that episode good for you but that moment really annoyed me. Additionally, if they had characters doubt Adrien more. Not maliciously. Just every once in a while dismiss him or confront him about his bias towards Chloe. It doesn't have to be extreme. But I do think if he manages to quit some of there whole rich kid stuff and managed to give him a hobby that he isn't very good at but he enjoys, it'd be better (Kinda how Sokka clearly likes painting but he sucks at it in the show).
The onyl onle to seems to know about tropes around here, Kudos to you..
I never saw him as one. Being optimistic, kind and positive isn't meant to call you perfect, I am like that in tough situations. After all he'd been through, it's only natural for him to be immune with negative emotions. He's the son of GABRIEL AGRESTE, he had been controlled and isolated for most of his life and ofcourse forced to be perfect. We all see him hurt and wanted to break free and he can only do that when he is CatNoir. What Thomas said is undeniably wrong, he is not perfect he's just forced to be one because he has a strict and cold father. He's not perfect and that's what CatNoir shows us.
Imagine how he will react to finding out HawkMoth's I identity.
There's nothing to imagine, Cat Blanc showed it.
@@Soundwave1900 You're right.
I don't watch the show, but if my surface level knowledge gave me any indication. A character that is forced to be perfect is *not* a mary sue/marty stu. As his hero alter ego, Adrien showed his flaws, which is a *lot.* He could excel in so many things because he was *trained* for them. Like modelling, multilingual, or musical expertise. He didn't necessarily want this training nor this would affect him on personal level, but just on image level.
Marinette, on the other hand, excels on something she wasn't supposed to. She's a 'normal' girl but somehow REALLY perfect. Ofc, with her flaw being clumsy and other mainstream craps. THAT is the trait of mary sue.
So if Adrien and Marinette dragon ball fused they would turn into a whole mary sue?
“Felix is a turd”
🤣🤣🤣
Adrien has such a sad backstory 😭😭
The way to help Adrien is to really lean into that his perfection is bred by his father and is a whole persona. He has to be perfect or else he's let his father down. Like how he has this tight schedule of learning piano and mandarin which puts a lot of stress on him. Not just socially with friends but emotionally. It gives more importance to him being a different person as Cat Noir.
It also makes him value his time more and being quick to try to move into Lovezone with Ladybug too to be honest, it all stems from how Gabriel controls what he does in most of his time.
Although Adrien's perfection is considered an image, he is still liked by everyone and you can still see that his kindness is still who he is, even if he is a flirt and joker too. The broken family image and popularity he has is still a typical Mary Sue trait. The reason that it works is because Adrien's bad actions only really show when he's Chat Noir, which makes the fabrication of his perfection made in the show even stronger, despite him being all-round heroic and likeable in his superhero form (his wide variety of puns and stances, as well as how he saves and blindly trusts Ladybug because he loves her).
His bad actions are more justified than Marinette's because of the influence of his own experiences and the fact that she makes a lot more bad decisions and in a more dislikeable way.
This means he can get away with it because his own poor choices are a lot weaker, fewer, and validated by his own life, whilst Marinette gets off for much more disagreeable deeds because lots of people like her too and Ladybug is just too competent - people find the latter a lot less appealing and more unrealistic.
Ladybug is the one who knows what to do when they both fight akumas, but in everyday life it is the opposite; Adrien often reasons and teaches Marinette things (such as when he stops her from confronting Lila for her lies and he gives up his place in the gaming tournament for Max and Marinette to play). Just because Adrien's flawlessness is a front, that doesn't mean that his actions as a civilian are merely based on that and not his own personality.
I know that this explanation is very magnified on Adrien being a bit of a Sue, but I wanted to get it out there because I haven't really seen anyone talking about it in this way - it was quite hard to argue this, since we all love golden boy and he deserves to shine, especially as Chat Noir. Adrien is definitely not perfect and neither is Marinette, I'm very interested to see them reveal more of their true selves. I think most of the other things I would mention and agree with have already been said by some observant people in this comment section, and this is already very long! Thanks for reading if you did :)
I can answer this: no. Marinette is much more of a Mary-Sue than Adrien, which is a huge problem in the MA universe. Adrien is supposed to be perfect. He’s supposed to be framed as this untouchable, flawless model to almost everyone else in the universe, and that’s because his dad overworks him and forces him to be good. If Adrien was a Mary-Sue (he isn’t, for the reasons that he makes mistakes a lot of the time and is framed as worse in almost everything than Marinette), it would make sense. Marinette being an actual Mary-Sue *doesn’t* make sense, since in her words, she’s supposed to be a “normal girl with a normal life”. Yet she’s somehow better than Adrien in gaming, fencing, fighting etc. When it makes no sense whatsoever. When Marinette displays bad behaviour, she rarely gets punished for it and the only thing she gets is a slap on the wrist from Tikki. Her stalking is displayed as cute and quirky, and she realistically shouldn’t be friends - or at least acquainted - with so many celebrities (her uncle, Adrien, Chat noir, Gabriel, the news reporter, Alya etc.)
It’s ironic how she’s meant to be likeable. But her being a picture perfect Mary-Sue makes her so punchable. Adrien’s the one putting all his time and effort into these extracurricular activities, and yet Marinette (who spends her time making clothes and stalking Adrien) is the one who’s gaining his skills for him. Tf. If “girl empowerment“ was the message of this show, wouldn’t it make more sense to switch the genders of Adrien and Marinette? At least a genderswapped Adrien who’s still perfect would make more sense than regular Marinette.
“Marinette is silly and hopeless” mood
Okay. My tid-bit.
I don't think the components of what a Sue stereotypically is as opposed to what makes a Sue are two different things.
One, tragic backstories don't always make a Sue. In fact many characters can have a tragic backstory but not be a Sue. I mean look at Zuku from Avatar. Prince banished from the fire nation, none other by his own father, and skills was subpar. Some would argue that is a tragic backstory but that doesn't make him a Mary Sue.
Also see characters like Batman, who was orphaned or Jason Todd's Red Hood who literally died. Again, not considered Sue's unless written poorly and their backstory would then have nothing to do with it.
The issue of Sue's..or primary issue, is that they don't work with the plot. The plot works around her. For instance, most mary sues are the center of attention and no one really knows why. They warp the world and glorify the character rather than prioritizing the rules of reality. For example, Marientte is the only character who has apprently ever used multiple miraculous...as a child....with no drawbacks. This totally deflates the power and risk of said power the miraculous hold. If she can do that with two with no side effects why doesn't she all the time? Questions like that poke holes in the plot, which is only used to convenience her. There is also a huge thing people take time to note, is how the plot favours her when she makes actions that other characters have, such as chloe or Lila, and receive nothing but positive consequences. Such as that time where her and Chloe try to sabotage Kagami...and yet only chloe gets any consequence and Marinette gets to sit with her crush. Even minor things like that will contribute to a Sue's power over the plot. Of course you also get the whole villains/heroes who are considered intelligent, purposefully do something dumb which puts Mari on a pedestal.
A lot of people may argue that Sues don't have consequences and Marinette had a huge on at the end in Miracle Queen. Yes, I agree that was well written, however, that doesn't automatically balance everything back out. I mean Kirito has had a ton of consequences in the first series of Sao, getting his whole guild killed at one point, but was still a Sue.
Adrien on the other hand, not only lacks the episodes to be considered a Sue, but the arguments you gave to justify calling him a half Sue doesn't quite add up. For one, the backstory doesn't always make the character a Sue, see my prior examples. The second thing is his perfection. This is in character with him. His status as a model makes sense in regards to his popularity. I mean look at idols and models in rela life. People are obsessed with some and good looking people are popular in school. He takes fencing because he can't afford it, and fencing is relatively popular in Europe, more so in France, Italy, and Spain than places like the UK or Germany. But even in the area I live in I do know people who fence along with schools and classes for fencing. Not to mention, based on Gabriel's own swordsmanship, fencing could very well be a family thing. Being multilingual isn't really impressive, as many people are multilingual, same with being a musician. The people who like him, I believe half like him for status. Chloe and Lila both are self centered and probably want to pair with him because of that status. And the other two are most likely in regards to bad writing, but despite this, I do believe that this could be the only point that you make.
Though I personally don't consider Marinette a Mary sue though. I feel like that is the wrong title because I and many others personally consider her out of character a lot of the time. This isn't much of a Mary Sue but a subsection; a possession sue.
"A lacking of understanding that no means no" FACTS
Adrien -> Borderline Gary Sue
Chat Noir -> Not a Gary Sue
Marinette -> Would be a Mary Sue if she wasn't a stalker
Ladybug -> Mary Sue 101
Pretty much, one of the things that keeps Adrien at Borderline Gary Stu is the fact he isnt as creative as his dad.
Ladybug actually admits to some fo her failures unlike Chat Noir
@@quietopinion9637 that's due to how they were raised, and also it's a very big Mary Sue trait to actually be able to admit when you were wrong. Like that takes a lot of strength for many people
This show is for teens
*CHANGE MY MIND*
Edit:Well the target audience is mosly teens lol
No
It's actually for kids.
Christian Circle
The target demographic are 7 year olds, but the actual general demographic is 15 year old girls
@@guardianofpeace6393 and boys lol
Miraculous Lover the target is little girls, or at least that’s what Thomas said. But some of the kisses and romantic bits seem more age appropriate for kids
Never thought I'd hear someone speculate on whether Adrien Agreste is a Mary Sue.
First time seeing the argument that Adrien + Marinette = Mary Sue.
In my opinion most of the characters in the show are a bit like mary sues I'm not talking about chloe and Lila and Gabriel, felix. like some of their flaws are just ridiculous also when they ever do something wrong it is okay because they are kind and the problem gets fixed and they have a right to do questionable things cuz they are doing it for a good reason or because it is a high school sweetheart it is okay. If they had good flaws that would make them not so perfect innocent and sweet and they were like normal people chloe would probably just that annoying kid who tries to be mean and cool who needs attention from others cuz her parents dosent gives her any but instead she is like a really mean and evil villain when most people at her age acted like her because most people act like chloe around thay age. Chloe is just an entitled kid with money. Like most kids you meet but more exaggerated cuz it is a cartoon
I love how Marinette is half Mary Sue or, dare I say, a Mari
actually, in queen banana Chloe decides that Adrien isn’t good for her and now Chloe hates him. therefore, he’s probably not a Mary Sue.
i dont think adrien is a mary sue i think hes a sentimonster like hes so perfect
I don't think he's "overcome" his backstory. Yeah, he's not a huge jerk like his dad and cousin, but he's still clearly struggling with establishing personal relationships and boundaries which are kinda why he gives the benefit of the doubt so often. He's empathetic and sympathetic, but he's also a really bad judge of character because of it.
Wow you give more recognition to Adrian than the actuall show
I think the right term for him is Gary Stu, the male version of the Mary Sue.
I personally think that the reason that Adriens IQ as chat "drops" is not to make ladybug look better or to make her the main character but because when he's in custom he let's himself go (show off all his flaws, act dumber, be reckless) he doesn't have to be his "perfect" self while ladybug acts more professional (she takes things more seriously than him, she tries her best to hide her weaknesses and flaws).
They’re tow halves of a whole
Mary Sue
Their made for each other 😂😂😂
But seriously tho ...❤️
I think he's like a romance sue. His perfect characteristics come out when one looks at him like a love interest.
Personally, while all four are generally associated with Mary Sues, I wouldn't say that they're equally important.
The third trait is probably the most significant sign of a Mary Sue, with the second and first traits simply reinforcing it (and often being a symptom of the first trait). The fourth, however, is... generally more of an ancillary thing. It's common for Sues to have tragic backstories, but having a tragic backstory doesn't make a character problematic, it's generally the "the entire story warps around them" feature that's the defining characteristic.
With this in mind, I wouldn't say that Adrien and Marinette having two of the four characteristics makes them equal on the Sue scales. Chat Noir has been thrown under the bus to make Ladybug look good too many times for Adrien to be a Sue, IMO, while I think Marinette, while not a Sue yet, is at distinct risk of drifting into Sue territory in season 4. Consider that her fundamental mistake at the end of Season 3 essentially sets up a tragic backstory (all of her allies, except CN himself, have just been removed from the proverbial board) while making her even MORE important to the story by diminishing the potential of the support cast and putting ALL of the responsibility of the Miraculouses, including the Guardianship, on her shoulders. Seriously, let's imagine that season 4 was where the series started and the end of Season 3 was backstory. Losing virtually all of her allies due to her own mistake while having additional responsibility thrust upon her that makes her EVEN MORE IMPORTANT despite it being her mistake that led to this happening sounds like a pretty Sue-esque backstory to me.
Meanwhile, with the Peacock repaired, the battles she'll be fighting will be at the level where the showrunners might not be able to afford to let her keep making more than tokenistic mistakes without writing themselves into a corner where it's hard for her to believably come out ahead, thereby veering into fulfilling the second criteria. Adrien fulfills two of the criteria, but they're probably the criteria least characteristic of a Sue, and even if he gets character growth that makes him creep into criteria 2, I don't think there's any real chance of him fulfilling criteria 3 (if anything, he's been slipping into a sidekick role, and may end up as a genderswitched damsel in distress or even Cosmic Plaything by the end). Marinette is increasingly pushing towards the most problematic characteristic (#3), and there's a solid chance that the writers will have trouble avoiding the remaining two moving into season 4, even if the tragic backstory is more something that happened during the middle season rather than something that happened prior to the series start.
This is kind of responding to both, but to summarise - Adrien might have some Sue-associated characteristics, but I don't think he's ever likely to go full Gary Stu. Despite the promise of the title, it's become increasingly clear that Marinette is definitely the protagonist who's increasingly bearing more of the responsibility while Chat Noir has increasingly been becoming more of a spear-carrying sidekick, even if Adrien is directly linked to each of the antagonists. Marinette, on the other hand, while I wouldn't call her a Sue in the current seasons, carries a strong risk of going full Sue in future seasons.
“Adrien has one of the most ridiculous sad backstories of all time” That’s a bit of a stretch mate
-I’m ready as I’ll ever be-
I’m early as I I’ll ever be
Also not including this reply I’m the ninth comment including the other replys and 7th not including them I think
@@toaster8094 Great job
Dakuten Thanks
Adrain was moulded to be perfect by his controlling father. All of those talents were Gabriel's choice, not his. Marinette often thinks outside of the box and has been shown to need assistance from Adrain more than once. Adrain shows a mask to basically everyone and only really ever shows and talks to Plagg about what he's hidden behind his mask. He is a very believable character and also can exist in our world. Marinette is also another believable character there are moments where she does doubt her abilities as Ladybug and has grown to be more capable. HAwkmoth mostly focuses on negative motions when he akumatizes people though he can probably use yall extreme emotions besides anger and sorrow. He also is controlling people who often would be reckless and not properly think because of their state of mind so Ladybug and Chat Noir when thinking rationally can overcome akumas as they usually cant properly think as their anger and sorrow are mostly in control.
The fact that so many people claim Marinette's supposed "Mary Sueness" is a deal breaker and makes her a terrible character and yet when it comes to Adrien, all of a sudden I see tons of excuses for why him being a Mary Sue is actually TOTALLY fine is.... interesting to say the least.
Thank you! I thought no one else would notice. I love Adrien/Chat Noir but ironically, so many fans ride so hard for him to the point of him being borderline flawless. And that's like one of the #1 traits of a mary sue but whatever I guess 😫 Marinette bad, Adrien good. Lol
PREACH!
Adrien is supposed to be perfect. He still has flaws, but he has to make sure he keeps himself in check because he has to uphold an image that his father forced on him: the gentle and handsome heartthrob. It makes sense for Adrien to be that way because he was taught that anything outside of this is the worst version of himself. I would call Adrien a almost Mary Sue & I wouldn’t call Chat Noir a Mary Sue at all. I would also say that LB is almost a Mary Sue & I wouldn’t call Marinette a Mary Sue.
Except he is not a Gary Stu.
His various abilities are a result of the myriad of classes in which his father puts him, such as piano or chinese, and he is not the Best in all of them, since Kagami and Marinette defeat him un fencing (marinette being her first time), Kagami is also fluent in other language (in her case french, since she grown in japan) Luka is also fluent in music (he can also write songs, unlike adrien) and Marinette surpass him in videogames.
And the tragic backstory is not a Sue determinator, specially with characters such as Zuko, Homura or Katara sharing this quality
@@LM-ix7pk I love Adrien, but he is absolutely a Mary Sue. The "oh but he has to act perfect because of his dad!" excuse stopped working a long time ago when that's how he acts with the people he's closest to too - like Plagg and Nino. That is just the way he is, it's just the way they're writing him. Adrien has no flaws at all; no canonical, acknowledged ones by the show. The only reason people bend over backwards to act like it's totally fine is because yall are biased towards him. Adrien has a lot of potential as character, but he's extremely underdeveloped and is very much a Mary Sue. He has a tragic backstory and homelife, but the show never allows him to display flaws that growing up in a neglectful household would create and acknowledge such flaws. And, no, stuff like being socially awkward and naive are not real flaws, especially not the way they're portrayed in the show - those type of """""flaws"""" are exactly the type Mary Sues get. And being impulsive as Chat Noir isn't a flaw either, especially since the show presents it as a cute quirk.
I think the best way to fix Adriens character isn't exactly to fix his character- its to shift the perspective of his character. Adrien is closed off with his feelings often, not sharing much with other characters. he told Marinette a little about his pain and he talks to Plagg, but he doesn't get much time one on one with people or to himself to really explore how hes feeling. He's got trauma from failing people, as shown in the recent new york special. What he needs is a chance to step away from his responsibilities and explore what he wants and understand how many expectations are placed on him. Then as Adrien he needs to talk to Marinette about it. He already goes to her sometimes as Chat Noir, and he's starting to see that he can rely on her and talk to her. Again, see the new york special. When he has to leave, he shares that he feels as if he made a mistake. Allowing Adrien to explore his weaknesses in front of Marinette, one of his best friends, would be a good step on the path to helping him become more confident and capable as a hero. It also would help Marinette see past how perfect she finds him and support him, being a true best friend, not just crushing on her idol that she happened to know in person first. She may like him for his kindness and humor, but how she acts around him is exactly like how a fan would crush on an idol. She needs to be exposed to some of his weaknesses so her love can become more mature. Chat Noir has already reached the phase of a more mature love. He's Ladybugs partner, and gives her emotional support. He learned that its best when Ladybug doesn't know his identity, and that he can best help her as chat noir and not as a hero she knows. He knows that he needs to focus on his role in her life as it is. Again, new york special- he starts picking different roses trying to emphasize their friendship, but hes still giving her flowers and not anyone else because she still means more to him then 'just' a friend, but hes willing to be comfortable in the role of her friend and partner in heroism and not much more as long as she wants. Just giving little hints that he's still into her. Chat Noir should be given more responsibility as a hero, and maybe Ladybug should have less.
I envision two scenes. One, Adrien is talking to Nino about his life at home. Marrienette overhears. (She can't directly be the one hes talking to because she'll trip over her own tongue, ruin the mood that let him share, yada yada - something always happens.) Adrien cracks just a little. Admits that he's under a lot of pressure and its hurting him. But he can't go against his father. He should also talk about all the fans looking up to him to be a specific image, a person they think they see. That doesn't give him any place he can be himself. And thats it. Nino just gives him a silent hug when Adrien asks him not to share, and Marinette leaves, realizing Adrien isn't perfect, and that she's being one of his fans that places him on a pedestal- perhaps the worst of all. So character growth for her is focusing on observing Adrien. Figuring out what she can do for him. She has everyones schedule on her calendar, maybe she finds a spot in his day right after fencing practice and sneaks him away a few minutes before the end of class with some help from Kagami to give Adrien some Honey lemon and tea or other snacks good for after a workout where they can just sit and enjoy the shade. Tell him that she thought he could use the rest, so when she realized he had a small bit of time in his schedule, she arranged for a little picnic just staring at a fountain, chatting. Alarm goes off 20 minutes later, she waves good bye, and he returns to his lesson no one the wiser, except for Kagami and Marinette who were in on it. This brings him closer to both Kagami and Marinette, so that love triangle drama doesn't have to be broken. Show creators love that for some reason.
Second scene: Marinette is overrun with her regular duties. Everything is falling apart. She has to cut something out of her life for a short time, if not permanently. She goes to chat noir. Ladybug picks up the snake and cat miraculouses while giving Chat the ladybug miraculous. She needs him to temporarily be the Main hero of paris while she organizes her life. Everytime she hears news of akuma, she'll use second chance. If things look to be going well, she'll let it wear off. If things look like they're going poorly, she'll rush to his aid as Lady Boiga (Boiga is a type of cat-eyed snake) and assist him. She'll remain guardian of the box, but he's allowed to select one miraculous to keep as a spare to lend to a previously unselected single mission hero. This will give chat time to develop more problem solving skills and remind Paris Ladybug isn't the only hero, which will effectively take some of the weight off of ladybugs shoulders permanently. Of course there will be problems, maybe Lady Boiga rushes to help a couple times only to find he didn't actually need her help. She always tries to put everything on her shoulders, but she learns she can rely on Chat Noir for more than emotional support and side kickery.
Adrien hasn’t over came his backstory frankly he’s still largely impacted by it.
I know this isn't to do with the video but do you think the yin yang that marinette got Adrien has already gotten his own one just we haven't seen it yet
It took me a couple of minutes to realise you were talking about the Kwagatama from Befana.
@@Cheetahgirl_Studios kwagatama xD
Damn I can't believe I just realized he really doesn't know that no means no.
I definitely agree with the comments saying that his “perfection” is part of his character conflict: he’s forced to be that way, so that’s how he’s perceived. But, maintaining this image makes him so afraid of disappointing people (namely his father and Ladybug) that it gets in the way of his judgement. Eg: the New York Special. Because of how harshly Gabriel reacts to any little mistake (The Collector), he’s terrified of disappointing Ladybug so doesn’t tell her he’s leaving Paris. When she is angry, he believes there is no way he can be forgiven, which causes him to renounce Plagg (again, due to his father’s overreactions). So yeah, there are very clear consequences to this image, but it doesn’t really show through as Adrien.
Linked to this idea, I think a good way to steer him away from the other Mary Sue traits would be to greater explore his social struggles from being isolated during his childhood. I like that they explored this a bit in the New York Special. His inability to read other people is shown, but he’s still portrayed as quite charismatic, even if oblivious. I would like to see more genuine issues that come from inadvertent miscommunications, struggles with everyday interactions/building friendships, and perhaps a realization that he has a difficult time with this: it would make his backstory much more real and relevant.
Maybe if his chatnoir persona (which I believe to be his ACTUAL personality) merged with his civilian one he could be less "perfect".
Also... since he isn't OP he can develop his hero habilities, which wouldn't make him a Mary Sue, because he actually worked hard to obtain said skills.
I’m fine with their characters, that’s basically the reason why I watch MLB, I like Marinette’s character the way it is, sure there are mistakes but no one is perfect
He could be BUT he does not have the most annoying features of this type of character
Adrien never get away with everything nor make others look bad or less good
I think that Adrien and chat noir's character is so different you can almost say that they are two new characters. So I'd say that Adrien is a Mary Sue. But chat noir isn't. So it's kinda equal?
I just want to watch someone edit MLB so viewers wouldn’t see Adrien transform or talk about his kwamii and powers.
Either way I think most of us can agree that adrien definitely has more potential that the writers don't use. I personally really want more moments where he truly lashes out or can't handle holding the " Perfect model" Facade, since that's what it's supposed to be. His biggest fears and things that truly don't make him happy are not really shown and he rarely expresses how upset and crushed he is when he can't do things or is alone.
Tdlr: the writers should use more intense emotions more often and have him show what he feels
SOMEONE HELP THIS SHOW I LOVE IT BUT yes it can get stoopid at times
He is seen as perfect by people because of how he must act in real life, but adrien doesn't know how to act because he's never really had friends, and his father is distant from him, and people probably tend to use him like liela. But also his back story I don't think he's over come it that much but I don't think he's much of a mary sue, so ya thanks for reading (if y'all even felt like reading that much😂)
I think the sad background kinda fits him tho, it wouldn’t be as good without it
It's still generic as hell and very Mary Sue no doubt. It's like his flaws can get excused because of it which is cringe.
Well, Adrian is oblivious to Marinette. I mean, the girl practically confesses and he doesn't get it. Of course she denied when he asked her, but his assumption that people never lie is just, naive.
1:15
When you said "Marinette stalks him" so bluntly I almost shit my pants from laughter lol.
Funn facts who is watching this without socks 🧦😂😂😂😂
I don't think category 4 should be a factor for being a mary sue.
Having a tragic backstory doesn't make you boring or more perfect.
Having overcome it does, but he clearly didn't.
He can't really meet his friends, he is basically locked into his room, nobody is allowed to visit him.
All those are points that basically counterbalance his positive aspects.
Adrien’s character is literally about him being forced to be perfect which is why his cat noir side is everything he can’t be at home, I wouldn’t call that a Mary Sue because a Mary Sue would be naturally perfect and has a lack of struggles which he isn’t because he is forced to be perfect which is why he struggles a lot and he’s only perfect because his father wants him to be but that’s not what he wants, so I wouldn’t even say half Sue cuz he works hard for the things he’s good at and is forced to be perfect which isn’t the same as a Mary Sue because a Mary Sue like character is naturally perfect and doesnt struggle, yes Adrien is perfect but that’s because he has to be perfect, even tho he’s perfect, he still struggles
I don't think that having a tragic backstory make a character a Mary sue, its more dependant on if it doesn't actually negatively affect them, which isn't the case for Adrian at all, it impedes on his social skills for starters
They are both Mary Sue, and I said on the previous video is that Ladybug, and chat noir should have focus episodes, one on chat, and the other on ladybug, and maybe to fix his home life story have him have moments with his fathers assistant, have her act like a mother that he needed, and show them having bonding moments, especially with his bodyguard, make Adrian form a little family with the people who kind of take care of him
The whole mary sue things actually works with adrien (in my opinion) because he recognizes it. He knows people think he’s perfect and he struggles with that. It’s a very well-written way to turn a stereotypical tragic hero into an unexpected great character.
The only thing that could be change is that maybe, even for just an episode, he leaves Paris and starts heroing in another part of france, like nightwing in BTAS or spider-man when he went to boston.
Don't think he's very great imo because he basically enables abusers/ bullies even with his perfection on display.
@@quietopinion9637 what
His backstory shouldn’t be a full complaint it should be more a half having a sad life doesn’t equal marry sue
the thing is, they were kind of designed as characters this way, to compliment the yin yang, they have opposite traits that also work with eachother, they have the powers of creation and destruction, one fights and keeps the enemies distracted while the other uses the information he collects to make a plan, they aren't exact opposites per se but i did notice between these two vids they each had one half of the whole of a mary sue, basically the show is pushing that they complete each other
hes got some sort of manufactured perfection, his dad literally says "isnt he flawless? adrien, my son, hes the image of perfection dont you think?" like hes put a lot of effort and thought into creating that image. still, somehow doesnt feel too perfect, since he's clueless as fuck which balances a lot of it for me :D
It's manufactured, Gabriel bought him the best teachers he could buy so Adrien would be as skilled as he's, it has all to do with realized potential, the thing is Adrien's realized potential doesnt make him anywhere near as perfect, as Gabriel expects him to be, it only puts in at like Entry level of what it's expected of him.
Ok here is the thing tho. I completely understand where you’re coming from and I even agree with some of the points you make! Yet I find that there is one huge thing that really makes the entire argument switch directions: how the fandom and show creators view Adrien or Marinette. For Marinette, a huge part of the fandom adores her! Thomas Astruc has nicknamed her his daughter and left and right praises her, as well as the entirety of season three was literally him pressing in the fact that she’s perfect and constantly screwed over, almost like he wants her to be a Mary Sue! Like hell, Marinette stalks and steals and does some stuff which frankly can be used against her in court, and she’s still off the hook, and has to do nothing but say “oh sorry UwU” and starts ranting about how horrible her life is. With Adrien tho, Thomas continuously says in his tweets and social media that he is the side kick and that he’s not the main star of the show because he’s not necessary. The fandom also doesn’t give Adrien a nice time, and every time he does something that doesn’t include swooning over marinette and/or ladybug, he’s called a clown and a jerk, and even when he dies he is called a pervert and a sexual harasser which can’t take not for an answer. So yeah! Both characters are written badly, but here is the thing: the way the fandom and crew constantly justifies marinette and treats Adrien badly really makes it so that Marinette is the Mary Sue because reality is? What the show creators and the fandom have to say about a character is a huge factor about them. If you have Mary Sue traits but you’re constantly shit over by people for it, it makes you much less of a Mary Sue then someone who will constantly get justified
As you were describing about him at the beginning if he was ‘perfect’, I just kept thinking ‘But he’s lonely as frick’
You should do something like this but on Chloe and how the show ruins most of her character and the development...they had a chance to up her character to make her nicer (when she saved lady bug from a zombie chat) and (when she was trying to save Adrian from her mother's gold dust thing) but when the time came marionette basically threw it in her face and her mother's by saying how awful they both were instead on making the points on how Chloe changes and it's her mother's neglect she's the way she is
Just a correction to your video:
The correct term is Gary Stu
*And yes, Adrien is kinda a Gary Stu*
4:35 is by far my favorite line
adrien in the intro looks like hes tring to beat her so badly and yet he fails even with the face and everything and its funny how marinette is like easy
I personally think that if someon calls Adrien a Mary Sue they didn’t understand the character at all
i think that marinette is much more of a mary sue than adrien because adrien’s character is really multi-faceted and interesting, and is an overall main accessory to the plot. anytime he is the main focus of an episode, there are huge things that happen. whereas, with marinette, she is well liked, has had 3 guys crushing on her (both as marinette and ladybug), and her character’s backstory isn’t heavily rooted in the plot, like adrien’s is.
adrien exhibits mary sue characteristics, but that makes his life more difficult (i’ll tell you why in a second), whereas a typical mary sue has all of these as a help to them. the fact that his character has no flaws is detrimental in episodes like gorizilla, when he is chased around by paparazzi. and i would argue that he isn’t perfect/better than everyone else. kagami is shown to be an equal/better fencer, and the reason he is such a jack of all trades is because he has taken lessons and worked really hard to improve on said skills. as stated in the video, he can act impulsive and not think before he acts, which is an extreme flaw that causes chat blanc to happen, as well as things like what happened party crasher and it is seen when he is aspik. his sue-like traits don’t make him a mary sue, they enhance his character to fit in with the narrative and make the story move along. he is nowhere near as close to becoming a full-blown sue as marinette, for that reason. marinette, however, checks way more boxes than adrien and is much closer to becoming a sue, which would be very disappointing, but at the rate that she’s descending into that territory i would not be surprised.
Saying Adrien is a Mary sue, is like saying Isabella madrigal from encanto is a Mary sue. Isabella acts perfect to impress her family. Same here. Adrien is expected to be perfect because his father wants to present a perfect image to everyone. Adrien is a deeply flawed person like anyone else. As cat noir, he becomes a completely different person; he turns from being the "perfect model boy" , to the reckless, flirtatious, funny *cat noir* . He acts like that because he wants to feel free from his horrible, abusive life. So, in short, *no* Adrien is not a Mary sue.
Hmmm... maybe they could start to show the psychological effects of his father being distant, of his lack of a support group, of the fact that his mother was stolen from him so suddenly. Throw in little moments where he begins to lose his composure. All of that isolation really should’ve made him a lot different from how he is. Ima be honest... Felix from the miraculous anime pitch was probably a good example of that. He pushes others away and seems cold and distant, but that was a direct result from the fact that his father wasn’t there to comfort him as much after the loss of his mother. And because he never really had any to rely on. So now he’s even closer to Chloe and it’s even harder to feel he should stop being friends with her because she was actually there for him in his saddest times. Also those sudden losses of composure could be signs of anxiety/ptsd from the lack of security and comfort in his childhood. So yeah. There sadly isn’t much that could be done without completely changing his character or personality. Kinda wish they just kept the original idea for him and went with it or smth.
an other sad thing that happens to Adrian is that his father is hawmoth
The creator said that the number rule 1 was Adrien is perfect
Let's look at this in a slightly different way and compare Marinette, Ladybug, Cat Noir, and Adrien.
Essentially perfect:
Marinette? I almost laughed. No. She's quick to judgment, she's always making excuses for why she can't be around Adrien, let alone actually confess, she tends to make very bad descisions when she's upset or stressed, she lies, etc. She's a very flawed character.
Ladybug? Well, while of course since they are the same person there will be a bit of overlap here generally speaking yes, Ladybug is essentially perfect. Her plans always work, she's very confident in her abilities, and is a natural leader.
Cat Noir? Nope, he's rash and reckless, often doesn't take his superhero responabilties as seriously as he should, and generally tends to make some mistakes and poor choices.
Adrien? YES! oh my goodness, give me one thing he has done wrong? And what are his biggest flaws? Oh he's understandably socially unaware and too trusting. So of the four he actually fits this category the most.
Always makes the right decision:
Marinette? No. Plain and simple. Kagami is the greatest example of this.
Ladybug? More than Marinette but she's made some big plot altering mistakes, as pointed out in the previous video.
Cat Noir? No, as I said he's rash and reckless and has made some dumb descisions but this is less prominent than Marinette's mistakes.
Adrien? Name me one mistake that effects the plot. Now I won't say he makes none but very few and all inconsequential.
Makes other characters look bad:
Marinette? I don't see too many examples here. I understand the argument in Gamer but they did explain that she plays all the time with her father and it's not like she gets new skills all the time that she never had before. So even if you see this as an example, it's only one.
Ladybug? Sure I get the arguement, Ladybug always shines above everyone else. So yes.
Cat Noir? Not really
Adrien? Similar to Marinette, I don't see too many cases here but I will say he has more random skills than Marinette does. Fencing, modeling, acting, piano, Chinese, Morse code (I know this was as Cat), Basketball, etc. I understand these are explained by his upbringing and I agree my point is that Marinette's gaming was explained as well. Overall he almost always looks good but not by making others look bad
Tragic backstory: (and yes, I realize many argue this isn't a good category) no point in separating these
Marinette/Ladybug? 😂 Yeah no. The closest she comes to this is that she was bullied by Chloe
Adrien/Cat Noir? ... If you need me to explain this, you haven't seen the show. He couldn't possibly check this box more!
So overall out of the 4 categories: Marinette fits 0, Cat Noir fits 1, Ladybug fits 2 1/2 - 3, Adrien fits 3.
Of course this is dependant on the Mary Sue qualities you judge them against but I'm going by the video.
3:34 i love that seen from darkknight idk why but i love 💕
I know it's calles Miraculous LaDyBuG, but I want to know more about Adriens personal life, just as much as Marinette...
I don't he's so bland and boring
@@quietopinion9637 he is more interesting than Marinette. Do you have a brain? Adrien isnt bland. He is the most well written character in the show and his family drama is interesting. Can you tell me how Marinette is an interesting character
Maybe they did 1/2 sues because it’s a partnership. Marinette is far from consider perfect while Adrien is considered perfect. As for the counter parts, it’s opposite. Ladybug is considered perfect and Cat Noir is considered the furthest thing from perfect. They might’ve done that to express the yin and yang effect between the two. The real perfect mix of characteristics.
real reason is actually feminism. You can see that on Thomas's (the creators) twitter
A few people asked him to give Chat more screen time, because he is the second protagonist and an equal to ladybug. Thomas replied with something like "You dont like female lead. You are sexist" or some other bullshit. Look it up.
You can especially feel the favoritism towards Ladybug in season 4. Heck Chat noir is almost like a background character now. he only comes at the very end and then goes away
Marinette + Adrien = ULTIMATE MARY SUE
Tehe-
Together they become a full Mary Sue
I feel like you didn’t really mention most of Adrien’s traits as Chat Noir when discussing his personality, focusing more on the mask that he’s forced to wear...
Exactly, He is being forced to be Perfect. Something everyone wants their child to be. But Adrien's dad just spent time and money on him that is why he is as "perfect" as he is
Where does the phrase “Mary Sue” come from??
I think from the start it would have made sense if he was awkward and grew more into his social side because like you said Chloe was his only friend growing up