I think Margi is the perfect co-host for Mormon Stories. She brings an added depth of insight, compassion and down-to-earth intelligence that makes each episode seem more balanced and illuminated than ever.
Yes! So smart and insightful and thoughtful and caring. I wish my mom was like her. The Mormon church produces many people like John and Margi too! I wish there were communities that had what the church has but with healthy and positive nuance.
I can’t say how much I love and respect everyone in this conversation. As a covenant keeping member, I want John and Margie to know how much I sense and love their sincere curiosity and journey. I have learned so much and grown so much by listening to hours and hours and hours of Mormon stories. Thank you for inspiring me to be more courageous when I just wanted to quit when I stood up for truth in Mormon/utah history. I was not prepared for the hate, false accusations, attacks on my morality and honesty from people I trusted. The pain is real, the truth is a mater of life or death for so many. I love you all so much for being so transparent with your struggle and journey. I know your pain is real too. You are bringing truth and healing to so many. Don’t quit. And maybe I can hold out and not quit too. I am weeping as I am listening to this conversation and nothing has ever felt so cleansing and healing.
Wow! The examples of taking personal responsibility from everyone here is what the world needs. Thank you for being such a great example of how a soft answer truly turns away wrath.
This is so beautiful. I have listened to HUNDREDS or THOUSANDS of hours of MS to not feel alone and yet it has increased the divide between me and my loved ones as I medicate incessantly through MS and RFM. I've heard John lament that he would like to help build community for those who find themselves on the outside of the community of their youth and heritage. I've heard him say he would like to build bridges and work with those in the Church but since his excommunication the Church largely won't engage with him. It has hurt way more than just John Dehlin. The inability to bridge the gap that suddenly divides us and our loved ones when we lose our faith causes unending and ever-increasing suffering to untold thousands of us. And we KNOW our faithful loved ones are suffering. Because even though they haven't been where we are, we've been where they are. I know my mom thinks there's an eternal "empty chair at the table" in heaven. I hate that she thinks I'm doing that to her. And then Patrick consents to come on Mormon Stories. And I see John finally finding a faithful person with some influence who is a kindred spirit if in no other way than in their mutual desire to love and alleviate suffering. I want to say THANK YOU to Patrick and to John and say, through my tears of gratitude, that I HOPE this marks the turning over of a new leaf that begins to heal those mutual wounds and where all sides see each other as allies with common heritage and differing views working together rather than against each other any longer. I hope this isn't too much to wish for. Only those of influence on both sides being willing to reach out and work together could ever make that a reality. Together we can render irrelevant those powerful influences that have kept the sides apart. Gratitude and Love to MS and Patrick Mason.
I am a bit sceptical about the label "faithful" given that in the previous episode Mason said that Joseph didn't translate in the conventional sense, and that the BoM is more an inspired myth than a historical record.
@@charlesmendeley9823 Believing that some of the scriptures were mythical doesn't make them less inspired or less meaningful. The word of God doesn't have to be a literal history. Just think about how many parables Jesus uses in the Gospels alone... should we ignore Christs words just because he was using made up stories? I'm a full beliving member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and I also believe that many of the scriptures (including Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price) were written by men but inspired through the Holy Ghost. It's the "all or nothing" mentality that is so toxic in religion.
@@Vetionarian I totally agree with you. But it is the LDS church which fosters this all or nothing approach. E.g. you have to keep the word of wisdom, I.e. abstain from coffee or tea, to go to the temple. I hold the nuanced view that abstaining from tobacco is a good thing, that drinking responsibly is a good thing, that the tea and coffee rules are absolute nonsense. So I would not be able to go to the temple. Where is the nuance in that? Or how nuanced is the view that billions of Christians were wrongly baptized because the minister didn't have this or that key? The LDS church wouldn't even exist without apostate Christianity, because Smith couldn't have plagiarized page after page from the KJV. So I like your nuanced view but see no signs of nuance in your tradition.
Excellent wrap-up! I really enjoyed Margi's thoughtful and insightful input. She has a talent for being gentle yet direct in a sympathetic manner. Her style really complements well with John!
This is one of the best episodes of Mormon Stories that exists--bar none--and I am so grateful that John and Margi both got to describe how difficult being in this space has been for them. I appreciate Patrick's willingness to appear on Mormon Stories. Bridge-building is important and this was a great example of how to do it.
This interview is a good example of John in “decaf” mode with Patrick and I don’t think I’ve ever seen so many comments simply saying what a great interview this has been. SO, one could say this serves as case in point that listeners would absolutely follow John caffeinated or decaf. His work has value to us either way.
Enabling intellectual dishonesty and cognitive dissonance just because it was in a more polite form than normal wasn't impressive. There are a lot of nice guys who are LDS. Changes nothing and got boring fast.
Been listening to the show for 8 years now. This is one of the absolute most, if not the most, amazing interviews you've ever done. I wish you and Patrick would do a podcast together.
Hello! I'm from Mexico and I experienced my faith crisis while on my mission in Temple Square. I did not find Mormon Stories on the internet until 2 or 3 years after I had left the Church. Those years were full of confusion and uncertainty, finding mormon stories was essential for me to digest everything and finally move on. I do miss the Church sometimes, and I appreciate John's content for its nuanced approach, it's helped me move on from anger and bitterness. I'm happy these tough discussions are being held somewhere. Much love to you all!
I’m about halfway through this episode and just wanted to say, this conversation is softening my heart! I am a curious millennial, born raised in the LDS church, have seen friends join and friends leave and excommunication. My thoughts have changed throughout my journey, but these are the kinds of conversations that are meaningful to me. I like talking openly and honestly with my friends about everything and anything. I feel in my heart that life is a lot less about religion and more about using our gift of free will to choose goodness- love and kindness and desiring well on each other. I see more clearly now how much good and love John and his wife / team do…. We’re just billions of conscious humans each with our own experiences, opinions, beliefs which create our billions of individual reality of life. Be kind out there, thank you for this one John!
Patrick don’t shoot the messenger. John didn’t cause all of the problems in Mormonism; he’s simply brave enough to shine a light on it. Are you? God bless you John!
What a beautiful surprise to turn in to! I love hearing that communities are bridging gaps with love and understanding discourse. The world needs these types of interactions now more than ever. ♥️
These three episodes have been my favorite Mormon Stories series in a long time. Honest, vulnerable, candid and insightful all around. Thanks, John, Margi, and Patrick!
I feel a little bit like I've just been to a good retreat with these three episodes. Thank you so much, all three of you. Your willingness to be vulnerable and honest, and even pick at scabs a bit, sets a good example of what can be accomplished when hearts are in the right places. John and Margi, please keep it up. God bless you and all the good that you do. Please have Patrick Mason on again! Professor Mason, pleasepleaseplease come back and do more talks with MS. Your pov is important in this kind of forum. Not everyone that has left the Church has left their faith, and hearing you speak on how you come to terms with the sticky issues may help them find some equilibrium, even if it never brings them back to the Church. I think you may have a calling and a gift you didn't know you had. Thank you!
this was one of the most beautiful conversations ive watched. Thank you to everyone for participating and giving it all your sincerity. I think iin the post/progresssive camp we often want and/or need validation, but what would be more validating then having this kind of open honest dialogue with our believing family members? Patrick came to this with nothing but openess and no fear. I am so grateful for this conversatioin. I truly believe open dialogue is the solution to so many problem. This interview was a small step for these three participants, perhaps a giant leap for the community. "the journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step"
This is one of the best mormon stories episodes I have watched so far. Thanks a lot John for keeping this space open for anyone who is willing to come and share their perspective. My view and understanding of many of the issues we face as part of a faith crisis has increased a lot after these three episodes. Also thank you for being open and allowing Patrick on making those questions. I perceived the way you and Margi answered as sincere and open. Also thanks to Patrick for deciding to come. The three of you are great human beings!! Greetings form Mexico 🇲🇽
Patrick, speaking as someone who left the church, I really appreciate your even-handed responses and questions to Margi and John. You are a wonderfully thoughtful and caring individual, the world would be a much better place if we all tried to emulate your approach to communicating with others we don’t agree with. This was a very enlightening podcast, and I am refreshed to know that there are gems like you in the church, continually working to build bridges between others in and outside of the church community. ❤
Hey John. I was very intrigued when you started sharing your personal thoughts and feelings about the mormon church. Your videos have helped me in the past 3 months begin my deprogramming. I was born Floridad, USA in the church and I served in Argentina 2000-2002. I came back and got married in Argentina 5 years after my mission. I have been living in Argentina for the past 15 years. Thank you for your honest and sincere work. You are absolutely right when you said "The church taught me too well about the importance of truth and honest." That really reasonated with me.Thank you.
Thank you to both of you for being the example of how to peaceably disagree. But also showing how to be friends among multiple different communities. I found hearing from both sides so enlightening and so touching. Thank you so much for what both parties have been doing. There's so much value behind what both parties had to say. I can't thank you enough.
I think John’s hurting over the church is very obvious. As a long time listener/friend…I hope he can have peace. I prefer the somewhat angry John. The John I struggle with is the one who reaches too far to give the church a break, the one who portrays great sorrow and seemingly longing to be back in the church. The church doesn’t deserve you, John. Square your shoulders and OWN the knowledge you’ve gained and shared. ❤️
Edit: Agreed, they do not deserve him or any of the others they’ve pushed out. The Church will always get rid of, via shunning or excommunication, it’s truth-tellers & critics. The have & will continue to push out its best & brightest. Who are these people, who are these Best & Brightest? Many of them have sat for a Mormon Story. Over & over & over we have heard people, couples, families say they never watched John or Mormon stories until AFTER they had a faith crisis. Then after watching a few DOZEN episodes, seeing entire families like them, some will reach out to be interviewed. Then they’re excommunicated.
Thank you for your thoughtful insight. I have followed Dehlin for a couple of years and have thoroughly enjoyed his thoughtful dialogue with guests. I remain confused and upset with Dehlin's continuing claims wanting to remain faithful to the LDS church. Faithful to what? Let me compare Dehlin's obsession to wanting to remain close to his past church like a twelve year old still insisting to believe in Santa Clause. Dehlin's a grown man and needs to stop coddling childhood fantasies. Maybe it would be more accurate to compare the LDS church to modern social fraternities and sororities - fulfilling social needs.
The church and it’s members are evolving into a more compassionate and enlightened community. Patrick is an awesome example of this, with respectful caring of all people and sentient beings. Slowly, and surely, truth always comes through in the end, and it’s all good progression. Thanks for the high vibration interviews!
Margi made me emotional. When she looked up to the right and closed her eyes for just a moment when she described what she does to feed her soul… visceral for me. Love her
I love all of this so much! Thank you immensely, Patrick, for being the kind of person that can make your angry atheist friends delete their angry paragraphs, and for bringing such meaningful and critical questions, put forth in a way that showed utmost care and respect. And John, I really appreciate everything you do and have done to model a healthy way of coping and building vibrant relationships. 'Caffeinated John' might get more engagement as he stirs up righteous anger, and might even be therapeutic to some who need to feel understood, but 'Decaffeinated John' will always be the one to move the conversation forward, to truly change minds, and to ensure that everyone always feels welcome and at home here. And Margi, you were fabulous as well, as always. Your responses to Patrick's questions brought another level of thoughtfulness and consideration to the conversation. Love you all! Thank you! 💜
John-not that you’ll ever see this-I love how at 24:36 you admit to and own the important inconsistency Patrick illuminates. I love how you acknowledge it, admit you were wrong, and explain how your passion can lead you to misuse words. Your apology and acknowledgement of your error humanizes you, makes me feel compassion and love for you, helps me better understand you, and makes me want to forgive you. This is exactly how people will react to the LDS Church if they come clean about their mistreatment of blacks, LGBT folks, and women. You’re setting a good example for DHO and LDS apostles about how to live the gospel principles of contrition, confession, and repentance.
I think this is a touching exchange. I know my mom and in-laws are in pain that we’ve stepped away. Likewise we are in so much pain because we are so very misunderstood! We stepped away because we felt so strongly that our morals called for it. But it HURTS. This isn’t what we envisioned. There is anger, there is disappointment, there are feelings of great betrayal and heartbreak. There’s also a great missing of what we once thought we had and hoped for, for ourselves and for our precious children. I feel like I’ll never be whole
I see you, yeshalloween, and I know I'm not the only one thinking of you this evening. I am so sorry for your suffering. My meditation tonight is for the repair and healing of your family. I wish you love and peace and pray for the restoration of balance for you. May God bless you and keep you close, that your pain and grief should be eased as you do what you know to be right.
I have been divorced 3 times and all 6 of my kids are either disinterested in church or living "contrary lifestyles." Only one of them is straight up straight. I am still fully "active" in church. But I get why my kids left. It does not cause me pain because "they won't be in the celestial kingdom with me." Even though I have no husband and they are theoretically "unworthy" (NO ONE is worthy, that's not even a thing), They are mine. Now and forever. And I will not let anything come between me and them. Don't let what either side believes about the church come between you. Your family has their own guilt, pain, and shame to work through. Be the example of acceptance and compassion. keep the dialog open
Brother Dehlin, I hear you at 1:14:14. It is changing the mindset. My faith crisis started about 10 years ago. The intense crisis ended after a year-ish, but I have continued to research my questions and find answers ever since. I have never left the church, but I changed my paradigm to help me focus on the things that help me feel good to be me. My structure changed without leaving the church. My marriage has finally clicked into place and I see my husband for the beautiful soul that he is and am grateful he is my companion on this journey. In some ways, I'm grateful for your spurring me on to research my beliefs and seek the Lord. In some very real ways you have caused me a lot of anguish by pulling my belief system apart at the seams repeatedly, but I'm stronger and better because of it. I just wanted you to know that my paradigm shift happened without leaving. I'm happy you invited Patrick to speak with you. The "Mormonism" he explains is oddly very much the same as what the Spirit has lead me to conclude as well. I hope we can continue building bridges. Best to you and your family.
I loved the answer “the church taught me too well about truth, and honesty, and courage…” I remember leaving initially because I watched members who taught me about love and courage and kindness tell me I was wrong for wanting to support lgbt rights. The same people that taught me to stand up firmly for what I believe were shocked when I started openly sharing what I believed about plenty of other topics that are contradictory to church doctrine or culture. I got lucky to still have family support but I know so many people who lose their entire relationships with their families because they decided to live what they believe and now are pushed away by the very people who taught them to stand up for themselves.
I was never a Mormon. I was raised in the Church Of Christ denomination (fundamentalist Christian, and one of the sects of the original "Restoration Movement" promoted by Alexander Campbell in the 1800s - the same time frame when Joseph Smith established the Mormon Church) and was baptized in that church and was an active member for several years - and it was totally the same way for me in regard to "truth, honesty, and courage." I was just sincerely seeking the truth, and finding out the truth is exactly what led me to leave that church when I learned all sorts of things that proved that the beliefs are factually wrong. It started with learning that the teachings about young earth creationism (according to the fundamentalist Christian literalistic interpretation of Genesis) were false beliefs, and then with learning that creationist beliefs in general were false, and then due to seeing how broadly the religious rhetoric that was used to justify those beliefs in the context of creationist belief was equally unsound and fallacious in regard to all manner of other religious beliefs. Where you say, "The same people that taught me to stand up firmly for what I believe were shocked when I started openly sharing what I believed about plenty of other topics that are contradictory to church doctrine or culture" - yes, exactly. Ever since then (for me), I still find it incredible how religious believers of that bent (typically referred to as "fundamentalist") so often use the rhetoric about "truth," "truth-seeking," and being "honest about dealing with the facts," just deliberately and determinedly deny and ignore the facts when the facts don't fit what they believe.
I love Margi and John Dehlin. Your work feeds my soul. I am stepping outside to feel the sun, knowing that this same sun shines down on you and all the people you reach.
Patrick made me tear up. To Patrick: Thanks for doing this series and I hope you come back for more interviews in the future. In the previous episode, you made me consider a Mormon church that I would actually return to. I had thought that wouldn't be possible. But if the church took your stance on all the issues, apologized for the harm and injustice it has participated in and sought to be better and transparent, I could see some good in returning. I don't think I would believe in the same way you do, but I would love to participate in a healthy community like that. I imagine an organization that can apologize to the many families that suffered to pay their tithing and could return that money to those who desire it, but I would be okay with them keeping my donations if they were transparent and started to become something like the Gates foundation, doing massive good in the world. The difference between the church being a force for evil and deception and a force for good and honesty is all about who is at the top of the structure. Maybe someday the leaders can have a mindset like you. That will be the day the church might become better.
I keep coming back to this episode. I love how Patrick is so empathetic. His questions are hard hitting but clearly come from a place of understanding and love. I wish more Mormons would approach people who have left the church this way. You go Patrick, what a rockstar! And thank you John and Margi for facilitating a great few episodes with him.
John and his crew are worth every last Penny they have sacrificed for….and then some. He literally saves lives and his work should be compensated just as a brain surgeon. He probably should be making a lot more than he does.
Just want to comment on how rare a conversation like this is in media. Two people with wildly differing belief systems conversing in good faith and discovering a lot of valuable common ground. Truly one of the best Mormon Stories episodes I've ever seen.
John, you are fine. Never too angry. Never to judgmental. You are present to what is alive within. Nothing to apologize for. You choose words and thoughts carefully. Some people don't like Oz's curtain pulled back.
Even though I think Patrick brought up a good point in regards to John telling people to leave the church without actually saying it, I definitely agree that John never feels like he's going over the top. I almost always feel like his tone is appropriate and understandable
All three of these epodes were wonderful. I gained so much respect for both of you. Thank you, John and Patrick, for showing us all how to how respectful but honest and frank conversations with people with whom we disagree. Wonderful job, both of you!
Kudos to all involved. An excellent discussion. I think John nailed it when Patrick called him out on causing pain through Mormon stories; he replied that he isn't the author of Mormon's issues. John isn't the cause of the pain caused by Mormonism. He didn't start Mormonism. The author of the pain is the Church. Put the blame on the church and its leaders. They are the authors of the pain and suffering. Don't blame the messenger. As a devout member for 42 years, At best, I consider it a high-demand, fundamental organization and a cult at the worst. Neither isn't very complimentary.
More talking, less excommunicating. I’d have never stayed with my childhood faith if I got kicked out when I had questions. Instead I was warmly embraced by fellow church members who seemed to understand the pain questioning can cause. I am a never Mormon. I found my way back to my childhood faith after decades of searching and studying but my family just loved me the way I was, my church members helped me find answers, kept me in community, allowed me to serve others, and encouraged questioning and seeking. I would have never found myself or God without seeking and finding. Through it I was loved by church and family. I’ve never heard of anyone being shunned by my Protestant Church or excommunicated. Shaming people never draws them closer. I had questions. My questions were small compared to what baggage put on people in high demand religions. That doesn’t lessen the pain I felt. It is part of healthy development to question and seek answers for yourself. To be shunned, shamed and excommunicated when you’re seeking is just cruel. There are people who live their lives and never seek. I rejoiced when my kids questioned. It meant they were on their way to finding themselves, and then God! It’s what we are here for!
Bravo bravo bravo! THANK YOU Patrick Mason for attempting to fill the void of reasoned faithful responses to these church issues. May many others follow your example. And thank you John for your even, humble, and authentic tone. I gained so much understanding for both sides while listening to this.
I loved this interview. I was one who read Planted soon after it came out. I loved it so much I recommend it to many of my friends and family members to help them understand what I was going through. I eventually left the church. Planted and a couple other books helped me leave with more love in my heart than anger. Thank you!
Dear Patrick Mason. Before you go one step further, my advise to you is to go deep. Let’s start with Sam Young. You say you don’t know him? Then get to know him. In my opinion you’ve chosen the history that feels safe for you so that you can keep your testimony and stay where you are. Let’s see after you listen to the few amazing stories of amazing people who have stood up for what is right and have been excommunicated for doing just that. You say you’re a historian.. then do your history research and then let’s see if your shelf can hold it all. Most of ours have broken because we had the gonads to go deep. John. Sorry but i couldn’t not say what i am experiencing with this guest. Maybe by Patrick really learning the truth he will see what a lot of us on your MS have gone through. Watch and learn Patrick. You’re eyes are about to be OPENED. PS. Watch podcast of this beautiful family. Leah and Cody and their excommunication for setting up a safe group page for us to go to for support as we learn the messy stuff. Trudge through the grunge Patrick.
Well said.. people who aren't willing to get to the bottom of the true history can't have a true testimony of what they don't know... If you can read and learn all of the actual history the church doesn't want you to know and still have a testimony let us know how...
I agree. Although I believe he does know the history. He has clearly come up with ways to explain away the issues without critically thinking about them and how they affect others who aren't lucky enough to have had a perfect Mormon experience and like he said, be the exact type of person the church was made for.
Agreed 100 % he does not want to know.. and enjoys the luxury of closed community. Who would buy his books?.. what else would Patrick do .. He is simple scared and squinting hard to see what he wants to see..
Dang, I really didn't like John for a good while but having this reverse interview made him so much more human for me. I now have a lot more respect for you.
Kudos to these two positions doing what no one will and showing the way! This is transformative and desperately needed. This IS healing balm to ALL who are as open to receive in a constructive healthy way.
John , you have helped me SO much with your Podcasts---I have never told any of my Mormon relatives they shouldn't believe Mormonism, but I have and still am told I will "burn"----I have been shunned, intimidated, and ignored. Why? just because I am honest and haven't attended Church in 30 years, because I don't believe it. Keep up the good work--you are doing very good work!!
I so needed this…I needed to feel the peace care love and respect between people who disagree…thank you! ❤
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I am listening to this podcast today. I realize I'm very very behind. So I hope that this comment is still helpful in some way, but I just couldn't let this go. I have to get it off my chest. First off, I have been so so grateful over the last 5-6 months as I've deconstructed after leaving the church and that I've had John and Margie to help me feel herd, validated, and not alone. I feel like anger that John portrays is very righteous anger. I think it's rare that we hear his anger, but when we do it's usually compassionate anger in the sense that he's really feeling empathy for those who lived those things. But specifically, I wanted to address the question that Patrick asked from the point of view of families who are still TBM and say "Our grandkids will not have the GOOD things from the church. You talk about their pain, but what about our pain?" Well...I realize that this is going to probably sound a bit embittered, but frankly that's what we ARE as post mormons. I apologize for that, but I'm tired of MY journey, and MY experiences being dismissed and diminished to where *I* am villainized for choosing what is best for MYSELF, and family who are still in are making themselves into victims. You aren't the victim in my story. You're just a supporting character. Sorry not sorry. So, to that I say: "What ABOUT your pain?" My leaving the church wasn't ABOUT you. By insisting that my actions, which, again, aren't about you, are causing you pain, and your insistence that I should "go back" to church or that I am making bad choices, or that I am misunderstanding the experience and problems that I have, you are saying that my pain doesn't matter. My pain is trivial and yours is real and that I am responsible for the way you feel. I don't know a single post mormon that left with intentions to hurt someone. We all got out of an institution that hurt us, or which we saw hurting other people, and everyone I know who left had a ridiculously harrowing time being able to tell our families. It was not easy or flippant. For anyone who has adult children, or siblings or family or friends who have left, your pain is valid: But it's not our responsibility. You are grown up adults, and you need to figure that pain out on your own. You need to see a therapist. You need to read some books, and you need to figure out how to understand that you don't get to make choices for or control other people. You don't get to expect people who leave the church to go back to enduring the unfairness or pain that the church caused in order for you to feel better. As far as grandchildren - the church doesn't have a monopoly on "good things". The church is not the only place to learn values and morals. Children raised in the church aren't the only people who grow up to be good people. If you believe that those parents have stewardship over their children, then you need to look at it this way: Their parents have decided that the church is harmful to them. And they have chosen to find community and safety elsewhere. Because they have stewardship over their children, it's their parents responsibility and choice and if anything, you should be proud of the parents for making difficult choices in favor of protecting their children. So yeah. Suck it up. Deal with your pain. Find a way to figure that out and to reconcile it. Because YOU are responsible for that pain. Not the people who choose to leave the church. THey are already dealing with their own pain and trauma.
This interview was awesome. I really wasn't expecting to feel so impacted by this, and I'm considering buying Patrick Mason's books for my family who are still in the Church.
As a life long member who is wrestling through some problematic church history I just learned, I am SO grateful for this set of interviews. I have so much respect for all involved. Although I hope to land on Patrick’s side of things, I so appreciate the respect and validation you each showed each other. There was no condescension where there almost always is in these discussions. I see so much sincerity and humility in the comments made. The world would be such a better place if opposing sides could always discuss so respectfully. John, I hope that this interview eases the minds of other faithful scholars so that more are willing to come by for an interview. My best to all three of you :)
Brilliant ! I'll watch every step of this journey. Also, I've donated less to Mormon Stories lately, but this right here is what enchanted (in a good way) me about Mormon Stories to begin with. Breaking the silence, with a hammer of love and mutual respect. Compassion, valuing people and their stories just because they're people - not because they're part of a particular group or leaving a particular group. Love others AS self is what I see Jesus emphasizing most in the Synoptic Gospels. That's the vision. "As you have done to the least you have done to me." What's more meaningful than that? Those hurting in the church AND those hurting outside, are AS valuable and precious to Jesus AS himself. I heard once that truth without love is a weapon, and love without truth is a fantasy. To me this looks like an honest, sincere step in the direction of Truth + Love = A match that brings heaven to earth. 🙏
It’s so important to have dialogue as well as allowing ourselves to feel our feelings and be heard. The church, as an institution has caused a lot of pain. That needs to be known.
Patrick I work with cancer patients at UCSF. I’m a nonbeliever but often talk with people who are living and dying. It’s so gratifying for me to pray with patients if that’s what they want. I feel privileged to be a part of that. I have seen acts of caring and kindness extended numerous times on a secular level as well. We all choose what works for us. I think there’s a big tent on the love for our fellow man out there. Unfortunately there’s a lot of hate too. I would not so quick to assume those soccer teammates would not step up. I’ve seen it happen
John, I feel exactly the same. I don’t want to cause pain for people and I never encourage anyone to leave the church. I will absolutely share information with them, if they ask. I will be there and support them in their journey out, if that is their choice. I so appreciate you and the good you have done for me and so many others.
I guess I’m wondering why John and those of us who have left the church are responsible for the feelings of those who remain in the church? I try to be respectful and John is overly respectful to them. But truth is truth and lies are lies. If someone asks me questions, I’m going to share what I’ve learned. If that person does the research and decides to leave…their TBM mother’s broken heart is her own. Hopefully she’ll be compelled to do her own research.
Brilliant episodes. As a complete ‘outsider’ it was probably the first time I’d heard a fully believing, still member, of the church speak, and it was good for me to hear the ‘other’ side, as so much of what I choose to listen to is stuff put out by ex-Mormons. I loved Patrick’s forthright questioning, and keeping John ‘on the hook’…it made great listening and really enabled the listener / viewer to see an alternate point of view. Thank you both for being willing to sit down, and have an open discussion like this - it’s the way forward for sure.
There is no way around it the LDS leadership has lied for such a long time, that angers some like John, it is healing for a lot of us. He has achieved a platform and let us not beat him up because he uses the platform. I owe John very much. Thank you John, love what you have achieved.
Worst interview ever. The brainwashing has been complete with Patrick. He doesn't have a a clue. Happy to be an exmormon atheist. I have zero respect for the Mormon cult or its members. Joseph Smith was a lying con.
@@Nick-iw3ol I understand why they do what they do though. They want to have conversations on their terms in a way that doesn't make them uncomfortable. But it's impossible to actually have the conversation unless you're willing to hear uncomfortable things, even anger and frustration. Obligating people to bottle things up makes it worse in the end
What a great interview. I appreciate your openness to criticism and ability to own what you’ve said in the past. The ability you three had to have an open dialogue should inspire. It inspires me.
I'm sorry but I know many secular communities that put together outreach for homeless in LA several years ago. There's also been biker gangs that will do fundraising or car shows annually for different charities. Much of these are consistent groups that some have several years of doing direct outreach. They do exist. Much love and respect💜
This was such a helpful interview. Thank you John, thank you Margi, and thank you Patrick. Open, respectful and humble dialogue is so important and I thought you all did an incredible job with this. Seriously thank you for this one👏
I think we all have parts. Parts of me are very angry at the church. Parts are grateful for being raised in it. Part of me grieves losing my faith. Part of me wants to say F it. Part of me wants to keep trying to stay and make it work. I can understand why sometimes John says he loves the church and other times he says mean things about it. Very relatable. Regardless, good episode and I have respect for Patrick Mason. We'd all be hypocrites if we didn't listen to faithful members in the way we wish they would listen to us.
This was pure gold. I laughed, I shed tears. I want what you three talk about. I also confess along with John, guilty of using harmful rhetoric. My esteem for these 3 people had skyrocketed from these conversations. Nothing but love and thanks for all 3 of you❤ You all inspire me with your humanity, love, openness, and magnificent spirit.
In my humble tiny opinion , I don’t watch Mormon stories to see john or anyone else name calling, but trust me to see his passion when talking about the horrific treatment of certain members really helps, when he gets angry at child abuse it helps me know we’re of the same morals etc etc but I watch because of the compassion, the care, the fact that you see John over step the mark and then be honest about it makes me love him more, people are people and we’re none of us perfect. I watch for the education, the understanding, but I never expect perfection, he’s not a prophet reading through a speech that’s been written and checked over, he’s a real human man having emotions on 99% live broadcasts and I still leave those streams respecting and loving the Mormon stories team! I’d find it incredibly hard not to scream, cry and swear constantly about it all and I can see why so much of what they hear spills over to their lives, Stay well MS family 💗 look after you!
To John: I'd actually like to say something that RFM said in the Midnight Mormon debate since I think it applies to you as well. I say it because you seem to stress yourself out about having the responsibility of dealing with so many people's stories and dealing with people's hate and feelings. The objective truth imo is that you're not responsible for what paths people take or how information affects people. You're not responsible for telling people where to go or what to do. Your purpose is to let them speak and let them figure things out. Giving an opinion on something does not equate to telling people how to live. Kwaku tried to paint RFM as a bad guy because he wasn't trying to give people a landing place and his response was more or less what I said. Your responsibility is only to tell your truth and the objective truth, and to let others speak their truths. Otherwise you begin to act like an Apostle. You're not responsible for others' actions unless you actively tell them what to do or you strongly insinuate to them that they should do something. It can be a fine line to walk. Best of luck, as always 👍
I know this wasn't John's turn to ask questions and I respect him for honoring that, but if Patrick Mason can pose his second question, what does he feel for the mother of a catholic who converted to mormonism as a result of the missionary efforts?
Yes. They (Patrick included) go on 2-year missions with the sole aim of "converting" people to Mormonism, which means converting them away from what they were before. Patrick's own wife's story is a story that involves the "pain" of parents and grandparents who watched her being converted away from the faith tradition of their family. Kudos to Patrick for being willing to make some compromises (e.g. wr to getting married in the temple) to soften the blows. But the church itself has strongly discouraged that kind of compromise in the past often leaving the entire family of one spouse uninvited to the wedding ceremony. It's kind of an odd question and the subtext of the question for me is: "Do you ever think of the pain that is caused by people learning the truth from you and acting on that truth in a way that upsets their family members who are unwilling to face the truth?" So, does the church and it's "faithful" adherents only give lip service to "truth" as an ideal?
Exactly. Missionaries are tearing families apart when they convert adults. There is a lot of alienation between mainstream Christians and Mormons due to their peculiar rules, such as the coffee and tea thing, etc. Plus, many mainstream Christians would think their relatives joined a cult and that they are in danger. And a discussion is difficult because the convert would talk about Book of Mormon references that are meaningless to a Non Mormon.
This is such a great point. I taught numerous people on my mission who were creating immense problems with their family by meeting with the missionaries, and who risked complete estrangement by converting. Each time, I comforted them by reminding them of the blessings that would come from following what they "knew to be true." In that light, this question from Patrick reflects a lack of self-awareness at best and blatant hypocrisy at worst (FWIW I find him to be a really great guy and really respect him being willing to have such an amicable, open conversation)
Loved this series of interviews. As much as part of me wants to be angry or frustrated or distraught with my former church (LLDM), I also find myself just wishing it was better and devoted to truth and care. I relate so much with you guys and I remember reaching out to the exLLDM subreddit days after joining it and asking what could be done to create a positive network to help people transition from the church to life outside of it. Unfortunately not much came out of what little discussion there was, but even the existence of channels like these and relatively new ones from people like me in our 20s in the exLDS, exLLDM, exJW, exEvangelical, etc communities that try to navigate life post-religion and raise awareness about our experiences. Since I’ve distanced myself from the church 5-6 years ago, I can’t agree with you more about being happier than ever and able to pursue my goals and live life as my truest, freest, happiest, healthiest self. I really appreciate you guys and everyone at Mormon Stories for helping blaze these trails for generations of us with shared experiences both within and outside of the LDS and exLDS communities. Thank you so much.
I listened to this three-part discussion with interest. Patrick was as expected pleasant and congenial, but found most of his answers to be evasive and unsubstantial-ultimately confessing that problems don’t bother him because he finds the institution rewarding. In his interview of John and Margi, I found his approach a little naive, troubling, and glaringly hypocritical. There seemed to be an implied accusation that John’s activities have caused pain and division in LDS/Mormon families and that he should feel some kind of guilt. Others who like to ask such questions often imply there is something psychologically wrong with critics and former Mormons who speak out about historical problems or what they consider spiritual and emotional abuse. Yet, Patrick and others seem totally oblivious to how the activities of the LDS/Mormon missionaries might be viewed the same way. John and Margi were honest and open in their response, but I found this line of question to be insulting and absurd.
Agree wholeheartedly, Dan. That question really irritated me because even though I agree that the word "cult" is too charged to be effective--the same complaint that Patrick lobs at John could be applied equally to a family member leaving any harmful organization. I'm not saying the believers pain isn't legitimate or real--but it isn't the fault of the truthtellers.
This interview is so amazing! Love the respectful discussion they are able to have! I wish ex mormons and mormons could have more conversations like this!
When I hear John D. say hard or derogatory things, I hear a man who is hurt from being stonewalled and minimized by something he gave everything too. Really not any different then the wife who who's husband had been lying and cheating on her, but then the woman is blamed for "not being able to keep her man". It's really hard to be completely disregarded a person when you know your motives, and they aren't the evil things that your "spouse" seems to be getting away with. I'm not sure if I think it's an issue of wanting to be angry. Personally I think it's more of being minimized and pushed aside that makes one feel more angry. At least that's my perspective.
For the grandparents who are feeling pain at their children and grandchildren choosing to leave the church, this is my response. It is not selfish to choose to live life on your own terms. But it is selfish to demand others live life on your terms. You don’t get to tell others how to live. Grow up and mature and move on.
I don't think it would be so painful for them if they didn't make everything about the church. When you teach your kids that drinking is wrong because god told you it's wrong, then when the person realizes the church is false they then want to go drink. But if you teach them it's not wrong to drink but that it's harmful, I believe the individual will still not drink even after leaving the church. no idea if that made sense edit: my point is that a lot of the pain of family leaving the church is because they usually go on to do things that make the TBM's uncomfortable. I'm saying that the whole thing can be avoided if you don't put all your eggs in one basket (the basket being the church)
Exactly, well said. It is the Church that makes those grandparents feel bad when their kids leave the Church. Its the Church that causes those parents and grandparents to give their kids shit about leaving, that causes them to be in fear about their eternal salvation.
Exactly. That question pissed me off because it is so manipulative. The only reason some people choose to remain active is they don’t want to hurt the ones they love, so they choose to make others happy rather than live an authentic life. There is an epidemic of PIMOs in the pews because mormons are conditioned to avoid contention and please others. TBMs take advantage of this when they make it all about them. I wanted John to smack Patrick down for that stupid question, but I understand he wanted to avoid contention in this interview.
Best content ever! You three have inspired me by having an adult, respectful conversation. This is how I grew up. Half in half not. Many of us are inactive or stay, hoping one day things will get better. Progress is made…we need to speed things up. Ironically, I believed the change would come because our kids would demand it. They have left instead. I believe many who have left would want something in the “Mormon Light” category. Third hour. No judgment, worship with a diverse group, no more meetings about the next meeting. High demand no more. Thanks again.
My personal opinion for the reason the term "cult" is so offensive to average TBM's is because for TBM's, the average church meetings are not particularly culty. Nothing about sacrament meeting or Sunday school seems very culty. But TBM's need to keep three things in mind, which are: 1.) Primary, 2.) Temples, and 3.) Missions The culty behavior occurs mostly in those three areas. I personally wouldn't describe our church as particularly culty until I got back from my mission and had time to process what happened to me in the field. In my mission I was isolated in a 2nd World country without being properly informed on what occurs in missions (I was spoonfed propaganda), I had my passport immediately taken away from me without consent and locked away in a vault while I was exhausted from over 30 hrs of plane rides, I was worked for over fifteen hours a day everyday and wasn't allowed to eat any meals other than lunch, I was sexually assaulted on my mission many times and was given no sympathy or care, I had church leaders breathing down my neck all the time about random garbage, I was subjected to incredibly intense psychological manipulation tactics and peer pressure and was even forced to baptize pedophiles to get the baptismal numbers up, we weren't given enough money to purchase food and so we were malnourished, we weren't given adequate housing and my friend literally had a rat gnawing on his head every night for two months, I was actively taught to use skeevy sales tactics to trick people into baptism, I was screamed at over the phone by MP when I refused to baptize another pedo, I constantly monitored to make sure that I wouldn't call my parents to try and come home, and everything I did was constantly monitored (no privacy whatsoever). There are a lot of other things that happened as well but my list is too long. Let's not even get into the things that happen and used to happen in the temples. I think my point is understood
Margi is amazing as cohost. I echo so many comments that others have already left. I was really moved at her tenderness in describing all that John and their family have been through over the past many years. I am on Team Margi!! ❤️🙌🏻 I do disagree in reference to the continuation of the Church of LDS as a church and religion. Until they come clean on all of the truth claims and be honest with the members of the church they are misleading those who are blindly being taught the gospel based on lies and untruths. I also firmly believe that no organized religion is healthy unless it is accepting of everyone regardless of sex, gender, race, gender identity or sexual orientation. If God truly made us all then we are should be accepted and valued period. And any church that believes in a God needs to recognize that. 🏳️🌈🤎🤍🖤💜❤️🧡💛💚💙
I think Margi is the perfect co-host for Mormon Stories. She brings an added depth of insight, compassion and down-to-earth intelligence that makes each episode seem more balanced and illuminated than ever.
I so agree. I’ve been watching these thinking, “she should have been on every episode.”
Yes! So smart and insightful and thoughtful and caring. I wish my mom was like her. The Mormon church produces many people like John and Margi too! I wish there were communities that had what the church has but with healthy and positive nuance.
Yes!!!
@@takwira I would love to see her drop-kick Rosebud.
Agree!
I can’t say how much I love and respect everyone in this conversation. As a covenant keeping member, I want John and Margie to know how much I sense and love their sincere curiosity and journey. I have learned so much and grown so much by listening to hours and hours and hours of Mormon stories. Thank you for inspiring me to be more courageous when I just wanted to quit when I stood up for truth in Mormon/utah history.
I was not prepared for the hate, false accusations, attacks on my morality and honesty from people I trusted.
The pain is real, the truth is a mater of life or death for so many. I love you all so much for being so transparent with your struggle and journey. I know your pain is real too. You are bringing truth and healing to so many. Don’t quit. And maybe I can hold out and not quit too.
I am weeping as I am listening to this conversation and nothing has ever felt so cleansing and healing.
Wow! The examples of taking personal responsibility from everyone here is what the world needs. Thank you for being such a great example of how a soft answer truly turns away wrath.
This is one of the best interviews John has ever done.
100% agreed!!!
This is so beautiful. I have listened to HUNDREDS or THOUSANDS of hours of MS to not feel alone and yet it has increased the divide between me and my loved ones as I medicate incessantly through MS and RFM. I've heard John lament that he would like to help build community for those who find themselves on the outside of the community of their youth and heritage. I've heard him say he would like to build bridges and work with those in the Church but since his excommunication the Church largely won't engage with him. It has hurt way more than just John Dehlin. The inability to bridge the gap that suddenly divides us and our loved ones when we lose our faith causes unending and ever-increasing suffering to untold thousands of us. And we KNOW our faithful loved ones are suffering. Because even though they haven't been where we are, we've been where they are. I know my mom thinks there's an eternal "empty chair at the table" in heaven. I hate that she thinks I'm doing that to her.
And then Patrick consents to come on Mormon Stories. And I see John finally finding a faithful person with some influence who is a kindred spirit if in no other way than in their mutual desire to love and alleviate suffering. I want to say THANK YOU to Patrick and to John and say, through my tears of gratitude, that I HOPE this marks the turning over of a new leaf that begins to heal those mutual wounds and where all sides see each other as allies with common heritage and differing views working together rather than against each other any longer. I hope this isn't too much to wish for. Only those of influence on both sides being willing to reach out and work together could ever make that a reality. Together we can render irrelevant those powerful influences that have kept the sides apart. Gratitude and Love to MS and Patrick Mason.
❤️🙏
I am a bit sceptical about the label "faithful" given that in the previous episode Mason said that Joseph didn't translate in the conventional sense, and that the BoM is more an inspired myth than a historical record.
@@charlesmendeley9823 Believing that some of the scriptures were mythical doesn't make them less inspired or less meaningful. The word of God doesn't have to be a literal history. Just think about how many parables Jesus uses in the Gospels alone... should we ignore Christs words just because he was using made up stories? I'm a full beliving member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and I also believe that many of the scriptures (including Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price) were written by men but inspired through the Holy Ghost. It's the "all or nothing" mentality that is so toxic in religion.
@@Vetionarian I totally agree with you. But it is the LDS church which fosters this all or nothing approach. E.g. you have to keep the word of wisdom, I.e. abstain from coffee or tea, to go to the temple. I hold the nuanced view that abstaining from tobacco is a good thing, that drinking responsibly is a good thing, that the tea and coffee rules are absolute nonsense. So I would not be able to go to the temple. Where is the nuance in that? Or how nuanced is the view that billions of Christians were wrongly baptized because the minister didn't have this or that key? The LDS church wouldn't even exist without apostate Christianity, because Smith couldn't have plagiarized page after page from the KJV. So I like your nuanced view but see no signs of nuance in your tradition.
Excellent wrap-up! I really enjoyed Margi's thoughtful and insightful input. She has a talent for being gentle yet direct in a sympathetic manner. Her style really complements well with John!
This is one of the best episodes of Mormon Stories that exists--bar none--and I am so grateful that John and Margi both got to describe how difficult being in this space has been for them. I appreciate Patrick's willingness to appear on Mormon Stories.
Bridge-building is important and this was a great example of how to do it.
The toughest question of all for John Dehlin is "can we keep it to an hour?" ;)
The answer to this is clearly NEVER!
😂. I know John tries but I love that it NEVER happens and I love it! It takes time to communicate and I love the in-depth conversations ❤️
This interview is a good example of John in “decaf” mode with Patrick and I don’t think I’ve ever seen so many comments simply saying what a great interview this has been. SO, one could say this serves as case in point that listeners would absolutely follow John caffeinated or decaf. His work has value to us either way.
On it!!!
Enabling intellectual dishonesty and cognitive dissonance just because it was in a more polite form than normal wasn't impressive. There are a lot of nice guys who are LDS. Changes nothing and got boring fast.
Been listening to the show for 8 years now. This is one of the absolute most, if not the most, amazing interviews you've ever done. I wish you and Patrick would do a podcast together.
Hello! I'm from Mexico and I experienced my faith crisis while on my mission in Temple Square. I did not find Mormon Stories on the internet until 2 or 3 years after I had left the Church. Those years were full of confusion and uncertainty, finding mormon stories was essential for me to digest everything and finally move on. I do miss the Church sometimes, and I appreciate John's content for its nuanced approach, it's helped me move on from anger and bitterness. I'm happy these tough discussions are being held somewhere. Much love to you all!
So nice to hear from you @Giselle Escobedo . I’d love to interview you if you are ever in SLC.
@@mormonstories That would be amazing! I'll try to make it to SLC soon 💜
I’m about halfway through this episode and just wanted to say, this conversation is softening my heart! I am a curious millennial, born raised in the LDS church, have seen friends join and friends leave and excommunication. My thoughts have changed throughout my journey, but these are the kinds of conversations that are meaningful to me. I like talking openly and honestly with my friends about everything and anything. I feel in my heart that life is a lot less about religion and more about using our gift of free will to choose goodness- love and kindness and desiring well on each other. I see more clearly now how much good and love John and his wife / team do…. We’re just billions of conscious humans each with our own experiences, opinions, beliefs which create our billions of individual reality of life. Be kind out there, thank you for this one John!
Margi is a gem and a woman of wisdom. Her observations and comments are spot on!
So true! I’m glad she’s going to be co hosting with him more.
@@mills3026 I was unaware Margi would be co-hosting more so I say this is great news. I appreciate the Dehlin’s public authenticity and risk taking.
Patrick don’t shoot the messenger. John didn’t cause all of the problems in Mormonism; he’s simply brave enough to shine a light on it. Are you?
God bless you John!
What a beautiful surprise to turn in to! I love hearing that communities are bridging gaps with love and understanding discourse. The world needs these types of interactions now more than ever. ♥️
These three episodes have been my favorite Mormon Stories series in a long time. Honest, vulnerable, candid and insightful all around. Thanks, John, Margi, and Patrick!
This is by far the most important interview of them all. It is tender. It is genuine. Made me cry
I feel a little bit like I've just been to a good retreat with these three episodes. Thank you so much, all three of you. Your willingness to be vulnerable and honest, and even pick at scabs a bit, sets a good example of what can be accomplished when hearts are in the right places. John and Margi, please keep it up. God bless you and all the good that you do. Please have Patrick Mason on again! Professor Mason, pleasepleaseplease come back and do more talks with MS. Your pov is important in this kind of forum. Not everyone that has left the Church has left their faith, and hearing you speak on how you come to terms with the sticky issues may help them find some equilibrium, even if it never brings them back to the Church. I think you may have a calling and a gift you didn't know you had. Thank you!
Being angry is ok, being human is ok. John doesn't need to change for critics.
I totally agree!!
Yep
This interview is SO good. By far your best yet. I'm getting chills! And Margie, you are FIRE.
I really appreciate Margi's cohosting and contribution to this discussion.
this was one of the most beautiful conversations ive watched. Thank you to everyone for participating and giving it all your sincerity. I think iin the post/progresssive camp we often want and/or need validation, but what would be more validating then having this kind of open honest dialogue with our believing family members? Patrick came to this with nothing but openess and no fear. I am so grateful for this conversatioin. I truly believe open dialogue is the solution to so many problem. This interview was a small step for these three participants, perhaps a giant leap for the community. "the journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step"
This is one of the best mormon stories episodes I have watched so far. Thanks a lot John for keeping this space open for anyone who is willing to come and share their perspective.
My view and understanding of many of the issues we face as part of a faith crisis has increased a lot after these three episodes. Also thank you for being open and allowing Patrick on making those questions. I perceived the way you and Margi answered as sincere and open.
Also thanks to Patrick for deciding to come.
The three of you are great human beings!!
Greetings form Mexico 🇲🇽
Patrick, speaking as someone who left the church, I really appreciate your even-handed responses and questions to Margi and John. You are a wonderfully thoughtful and caring individual, the world would be a much better place if we all tried to emulate your approach to communicating with others we don’t agree with. This was a very enlightening podcast, and I am refreshed to know that there are gems like you in the church, continually working to build bridges between others in and outside of the church community. ❤
Hey John. I was very intrigued when you started sharing your personal thoughts and feelings about the mormon church. Your videos have helped me in the past 3 months begin my deprogramming. I was born Floridad, USA in the church and I served in Argentina 2000-2002. I came back and got married in Argentina 5 years after my mission. I have been living in Argentina for the past 15 years. Thank you for your honest and sincere work. You are absolutely right when you said "The church taught me too well about the importance of truth and honest." That really reasonated with me.Thank you.
Thanks John. You’ve helped so many of us. We need to keep calling out all the lies the church has and still is spewing. Much respect to you.
Thank you to both of you for being the example of how to peaceably disagree. But also showing how to be friends among multiple different communities. I found hearing from both sides so enlightening and so touching. Thank you so much for what both parties have been doing. There's so much value behind what both parties had to say. I can't thank you enough.
I think John’s hurting over the church is very obvious. As a long time listener/friend…I hope he can have peace. I prefer the somewhat angry John. The John I struggle with is the one who reaches too far to give the church a break, the one who portrays great sorrow and seemingly longing to be back in the church. The church doesn’t deserve you, John. Square your shoulders and OWN the knowledge you’ve gained and shared. ❤️
Edit: Agreed, they do not deserve him or any of the others they’ve pushed out.
The Church will always get rid of, via shunning or excommunication, it’s truth-tellers & critics. The have & will continue to push out its best & brightest. Who are these people, who are these Best & Brightest? Many of them have sat for a Mormon Story. Over & over & over we have heard people, couples, families say they never watched John or Mormon stories until AFTER they had a faith crisis. Then after watching a few DOZEN episodes, seeing entire families like them, some will reach out to be interviewed. Then they’re excommunicated.
Thank you for your thoughtful insight. I have followed Dehlin for a couple of years and have thoroughly enjoyed his thoughtful dialogue with guests. I remain confused and upset with Dehlin's continuing claims wanting to remain faithful to the LDS church. Faithful to what? Let me compare Dehlin's obsession to wanting to remain close to his past church like a twelve year old still insisting to believe in Santa Clause. Dehlin's a grown man and needs to stop coddling childhood fantasies. Maybe it would be more accurate to compare the LDS church to modern social fraternities and sororities - fulfilling social needs.
Let people own their own journey and be where they are. You do you and let John be John.
The church and it’s members are evolving into a more compassionate and enlightened community. Patrick
is an awesome example of this, with respectful caring of all people and sentient beings. Slowly, and surely, truth always comes through in the end, and it’s all good progression.
Thanks for the high vibration interviews!
This might just be the best MS interview yet. Bravo to everyone involved for the open and honest dialogue.
Margi made me emotional. When she looked up to the right and closed her eyes for just a moment when she described what she does to feed her soul… visceral for me. Love her
I love all of this so much! Thank you immensely, Patrick, for being the kind of person that can make your angry atheist friends delete their angry paragraphs, and for bringing such meaningful and critical questions, put forth in a way that showed utmost care and respect. And John, I really appreciate everything you do and have done to model a healthy way of coping and building vibrant relationships. 'Caffeinated John' might get more engagement as he stirs up righteous anger, and might even be therapeutic to some who need to feel understood, but 'Decaffeinated John' will always be the one to move the conversation forward, to truly change minds, and to ensure that everyone always feels welcome and at home here. And Margi, you were fabulous as well, as always. Your responses to Patrick's questions brought another level of thoughtfulness and consideration to the conversation. Love you all! Thank you! 💜
John-not that you’ll ever see this-I love how at 24:36 you admit to and own the important inconsistency Patrick illuminates. I love how you acknowledge it, admit you were wrong, and explain how your passion can lead you to misuse words. Your apology and acknowledgement of your error humanizes you, makes me feel compassion and love for you, helps me better understand you, and makes me want to forgive you. This is exactly how people will react to the LDS Church if they come clean about their mistreatment of blacks, LGBT folks, and women. You’re setting a good example for DHO and LDS apostles about how to live the gospel principles of contrition, confession, and repentance.
🙏❤️
I think this is a touching exchange. I know my mom and in-laws are in pain that we’ve stepped away. Likewise we are in so much pain because we are so very misunderstood! We stepped away because we felt so strongly that our morals called for it. But it HURTS. This isn’t what we envisioned. There is anger, there is disappointment, there are feelings of great betrayal and heartbreak. There’s also a great missing of what we once thought we had and hoped for, for ourselves and for our precious children. I feel like I’ll never be whole
I see you, yeshalloween, and I know I'm not the only one thinking of you this evening. I am so sorry for your suffering. My meditation tonight is for the repair and healing of your family. I wish you love and peace and pray for the restoration of balance for you. May God bless you and keep you close, that your pain and grief should be eased as you do what you know to be right.
I have been divorced 3 times and all 6 of my kids are either disinterested in church or living "contrary lifestyles." Only one of them is straight up straight. I am still fully "active" in church. But I get why my kids left. It does not cause me pain because "they won't be in the celestial kingdom with me." Even though I have no husband and they are theoretically "unworthy" (NO ONE is worthy, that's not even a thing), They are mine. Now and forever. And I will not let anything come between me and them. Don't let what either side believes about the church come between you. Your family has their own guilt, pain, and shame to work through. Be the example of acceptance and compassion. keep the dialog open
You guys are breaking my heart. It's just so much emotion to deal with these things. Hugs to all of us.
Brother Dehlin, I hear you at 1:14:14. It is changing the mindset. My faith crisis started about 10 years ago. The intense crisis ended after a year-ish, but I have continued to research my questions and find answers ever since. I have never left the church, but I changed my paradigm to help me focus on the things that help me feel good to be me. My structure changed without leaving the church. My marriage has finally clicked into place and I see my husband for the beautiful soul that he is and am grateful he is my companion on this journey. In some ways, I'm grateful for your spurring me on to research my beliefs and seek the Lord. In some very real ways you have caused me a lot of anguish by pulling my belief system apart at the seams repeatedly, but I'm stronger and better because of it. I just wanted you to know that my paradigm shift happened without leaving. I'm happy you invited Patrick to speak with you. The "Mormonism" he explains is oddly very much the same as what the Spirit has lead me to conclude as well. I hope we can continue building bridges. Best to you and your family.
I loved the answer “the church taught me too well about truth, and honesty, and courage…” I remember leaving initially because I watched members who taught me about love and courage and kindness tell me I was wrong for wanting to support lgbt rights. The same people that taught me to stand up firmly for what I believe were shocked when I started openly sharing what I believed about plenty of other topics that are contradictory to church doctrine or culture. I got lucky to still have family support but I know so many people who lose their entire relationships with their families because they decided to live what they believe and now are pushed away by the very people who taught them to stand up for themselves.
I was never a Mormon. I was raised in the Church Of Christ denomination (fundamentalist Christian, and one of the sects of the original "Restoration Movement" promoted by Alexander Campbell in the 1800s - the same time frame when Joseph Smith established the Mormon Church) and was baptized in that church and was an active member for several years - and it was totally the same way for me in regard to "truth, honesty, and courage." I was just sincerely seeking the truth, and finding out the truth is exactly what led me to leave that church when I learned all sorts of things that proved that the beliefs are factually wrong. It started with learning that the teachings about young earth creationism (according to the fundamentalist Christian literalistic interpretation of Genesis) were false beliefs, and then with learning that creationist beliefs in general were false, and then due to seeing how broadly the religious rhetoric that was used to justify those beliefs in the context of creationist belief was equally unsound and fallacious in regard to all manner of other religious beliefs. Where you say, "The same people that taught me to stand up firmly for what I believe were shocked when I started openly sharing what I believed about plenty of other topics that are contradictory to church doctrine or culture" - yes, exactly. Ever since then (for me), I still find it incredible how religious believers of that bent (typically referred to as "fundamentalist") so often use the rhetoric about "truth," "truth-seeking," and being "honest about dealing with the facts," just deliberately and determinedly deny and ignore the facts when the facts don't fit what they believe.
I love Margi and John Dehlin. Your work feeds my soul. I am stepping outside to feel the sun, knowing that this same sun shines down on you and all the people you reach.
Patrick made me tear up. To Patrick: Thanks for doing this series and I hope you come back for more interviews in the future. In the previous episode, you made me consider a Mormon church that I would actually return to. I had thought that wouldn't be possible. But if the church took your stance on all the issues, apologized for the harm and injustice it has participated in and sought to be better and transparent, I could see some good in returning. I don't think I would believe in the same way you do, but I would love to participate in a healthy community like that. I imagine an organization that can apologize to the many families that suffered to pay their tithing and could return that money to those who desire it, but I would be okay with them keeping my donations if they were transparent and started to become something like the Gates foundation, doing massive good in the world. The difference between the church being a force for evil and deception and a force for good and honesty is all about who is at the top of the structure. Maybe someday the leaders can have a mindset like you. That will be the day the church might become better.
I keep coming back to this episode. I love how Patrick is so empathetic. His questions are hard hitting but clearly come from a place of understanding and love. I wish more Mormons would approach people who have left the church this way. You go Patrick, what a rockstar! And thank you John and Margi for facilitating a great few episodes with him.
John and his crew are worth every last Penny they have sacrificed for….and then some. He literally saves lives and his work should be compensated just as a brain surgeon. He probably should be making a lot more than he does.
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This interview with Patrick fed my soul ❤️ I hope you have him on again so that you both can keep working through those questions!
THAT was a productive and healing conversation! Thank you.
Just want to comment on how rare a conversation like this is in media. Two people with wildly differing belief systems conversing in good faith and discovering a lot of valuable common ground. Truly one of the best Mormon Stories episodes I've ever seen.
This whole series with Patrick was beautiful. Thanks to all three of you. You gave some much needed light and love to my day today!
Thanks for showing us how to have a civil conversation about difficult things. Bravo.
This is exactly the episode I needed to hear. Building bridges instead of moats makes so much more sense!
John, you are fine. Never too angry. Never to judgmental. You are present to what is alive within. Nothing to apologize for. You choose words and thoughts carefully. Some people don't like Oz's curtain pulled back.
John and Margi i love you. You keep saying what’s in your heart. You both are exemplar
Even though I think Patrick brought up a good point in regards to John telling people to leave the church without actually saying it, I definitely agree that John never feels like he's going over the top. I almost always feel like his tone is appropriate and understandable
All three of these epodes were wonderful. I gained so much respect for both of you. Thank you, John and Patrick, for showing us all how to how respectful but honest and frank conversations with people with whom we disagree. Wonderful job, both of you!
Kudos to all involved. An excellent discussion. I think John nailed it when Patrick called him out on causing pain through Mormon stories; he replied that he isn't the author of Mormon's issues. John isn't the cause of the pain caused by Mormonism. He didn't start Mormonism. The author of the pain is the Church. Put the blame on the church and its leaders. They are the authors of the pain and suffering. Don't blame the messenger. As a devout member for 42 years, At best, I consider it a high-demand, fundamental organization and a cult at the worst. Neither isn't very complimentary.
More talking, less excommunicating. I’d have never stayed with my childhood faith if I got kicked out when I had questions. Instead I was warmly embraced by fellow church members who seemed to understand the pain questioning can cause. I am a never Mormon. I found my way back to my childhood faith after decades of searching and studying but my family just loved me the way I was, my church members helped me find answers, kept me in community, allowed me to serve others, and encouraged questioning and seeking. I would have never found myself or God without seeking and finding. Through it I was loved by church and family. I’ve never heard of anyone being shunned by my Protestant Church or excommunicated. Shaming people never draws them closer. I had questions. My questions were small compared to what baggage put on people in high demand religions. That doesn’t lessen the pain I felt. It is part of healthy development to question and seek answers for yourself. To be shunned, shamed and excommunicated when you’re seeking is just cruel. There are people who live their lives and never seek. I rejoiced when my kids questioned. It meant they were on their way to finding themselves, and then God! It’s what we are here for!
Bravo bravo bravo! THANK YOU Patrick Mason for attempting to fill the void of reasoned faithful responses to these church issues. May many others follow your example. And thank you John for your even, humble, and authentic tone. I gained so much understanding for both sides while listening to this.
I loved this interview. I was one who read Planted soon after it came out. I loved it so much I recommend it to many of my friends and family members to help them understand what I was going through. I eventually left the church. Planted and a couple other books helped me leave with more love in my heart than anger. Thank you!
Dear Patrick Mason. Before you go one step further, my advise to you is to go deep. Let’s start with Sam Young. You say you don’t know him? Then get to know him. In my opinion you’ve chosen the history that feels safe for you so that you can keep your testimony and stay where you are. Let’s see after you listen to the few amazing stories of amazing people who have stood up for what is right and have been excommunicated for doing just that. You say you’re a historian.. then do your history research and then let’s see if your shelf can hold it all. Most of ours have broken because we had the gonads to go deep.
John. Sorry but i couldn’t not say what i am experiencing with this guest. Maybe by Patrick really learning the truth he will see what a lot of us on your MS have gone through. Watch and learn Patrick. You’re eyes are about to be OPENED.
PS. Watch podcast of this beautiful family. Leah and Cody and their excommunication for setting up a safe group page for us to go to for support as we learn the messy stuff. Trudge through the grunge Patrick.
A scholarly defense of faithful Mormonism is not possible. Mormonism is the result of fantastical thinking.
Well said.. people who aren't willing to get to the bottom of the true history can't have a true testimony of what they don't know... If you can read and learn all of the actual history the church doesn't want you to know and still have a testimony let us know how...
It fits the criteria of a cult. So I call UT a cult
I agree. Although I believe he does know the history. He has clearly come up with ways to explain away the issues without critically thinking about them and how they affect others who aren't lucky enough to have had a perfect Mormon experience and like he said, be the exact type of person the church was made for.
Agreed 100 % he does not want to know.. and enjoys the luxury of closed community. Who would buy his books?.. what else would Patrick do .. He is simple scared and squinting hard to see what he wants to see..
Dang, I really didn't like John for a good while but having this reverse interview made him so much more human for me. I now have a lot more respect for you.
Thank you Margi your bit at the end was very powerful and gave me lots of hope.
Kudos to these two positions doing what no one will and showing the way! This is transformative and desperately needed. This IS healing balm to ALL who are as open to receive in a constructive healthy way.
This full day with Patrick Mason is the ideal example of why your podcast is so great. Perfection. I have the greatest respect for all three of you.
John , you have helped me SO much with your Podcasts---I have never told any of my Mormon relatives they shouldn't believe Mormonism, but I have and still am told I will "burn"----I have been shunned, intimidated, and ignored. Why? just because I am honest and haven't attended Church in 30 years, because I don't believe it. Keep up the good work--you are doing very good work!!
I so needed this…I needed to feel the peace care love and respect between people who disagree…thank you! ❤
I am listening to this podcast today. I realize I'm very very behind. So I hope that this comment is still helpful in some way, but I just couldn't let this go. I have to get it off my chest.
First off, I have been so so grateful over the last 5-6 months as I've deconstructed after leaving the church and that I've had John and Margie to help me feel herd, validated, and not alone. I feel like anger that John portrays is very righteous anger. I think it's rare that we hear his anger, but when we do it's usually compassionate anger in the sense that he's really feeling empathy for those who lived those things.
But specifically, I wanted to address the question that Patrick asked from the point of view of families who are still TBM and say "Our grandkids will not have the GOOD things from the church. You talk about their pain, but what about our pain?" Well...I realize that this is going to probably sound a bit embittered, but frankly that's what we ARE as post mormons. I apologize for that, but I'm tired of MY journey, and MY experiences being dismissed and diminished to where *I* am villainized for choosing what is best for MYSELF, and family who are still in are making themselves into victims. You aren't the victim in my story. You're just a supporting character. Sorry not sorry.
So, to that I say: "What ABOUT your pain?" My leaving the church wasn't ABOUT you. By insisting that my actions, which, again, aren't about you, are causing you pain, and your insistence that I should "go back" to church or that I am making bad choices, or that I am misunderstanding the experience and problems that I have, you are saying that my pain doesn't matter. My pain is trivial and yours is real and that I am responsible for the way you feel. I don't know a single post mormon that left with intentions to hurt someone. We all got out of an institution that hurt us, or which we saw hurting other people, and everyone I know who left had a ridiculously harrowing time being able to tell our families. It was not easy or flippant.
For anyone who has adult children, or siblings or family or friends who have left, your pain is valid: But it's not our responsibility. You are grown up adults, and you need to figure that pain out on your own. You need to see a therapist. You need to read some books, and you need to figure out how to understand that you don't get to make choices for or control other people. You don't get to expect people who leave the church to go back to enduring the unfairness or pain that the church caused in order for you to feel better.
As far as grandchildren - the church doesn't have a monopoly on "good things". The church is not the only place to learn values and morals. Children raised in the church aren't the only people who grow up to be good people. If you believe that those parents have stewardship over their children, then you need to look at it this way: Their parents have decided that the church is harmful to them. And they have chosen to find community and safety elsewhere. Because they have stewardship over their children, it's their parents responsibility and choice and if anything, you should be proud of the parents for making difficult choices in favor of protecting their children. So yeah. Suck it up. Deal with your pain. Find a way to figure that out and to reconcile it. Because YOU are responsible for that pain. Not the people who choose to leave the church. THey are already dealing with their own pain and trauma.
I’m not sure you’re behind, I wonder if you’re just in time. This is a well said comment. Thank you.
This interview was awesome. I really wasn't expecting to feel so impacted by this, and I'm considering buying Patrick Mason's books for my family who are still in the Church.
John your podcast has given me more joy in the past two years than anything on TH-cam. Thank you for all you do🙏😊
As a life long member who is wrestling through some problematic church history I just learned, I am SO grateful for this set of interviews. I have so much respect for all involved. Although I hope to land on Patrick’s side of things, I so appreciate the respect and validation you each showed each other. There was no condescension where there almost always is in these discussions. I see so much sincerity and humility in the comments made. The world would be such a better place if opposing sides could always discuss so respectfully. John, I hope that this interview eases the minds of other faithful scholars so that more are willing to come by for an interview. My best to all three of you :)
Stephanie that was beautifully said
Brilliant ! I'll watch every step of this journey. Also, I've donated less to Mormon Stories lately, but this right here is what enchanted (in a good way) me about Mormon Stories to begin with. Breaking the silence, with a hammer of love and mutual respect.
Compassion, valuing people and their stories just because they're people - not because they're part of a particular group or leaving a particular group. Love others AS self is what I see Jesus emphasizing most in the Synoptic Gospels. That's the vision. "As you have done to the least you have done to me." What's more meaningful than that? Those hurting in the church AND those hurting outside, are AS valuable and precious to Jesus AS himself. I heard once that truth without love is a weapon, and love without truth is a fantasy. To me this looks like an honest, sincere step in the direction of Truth + Love = A match that brings heaven to earth. 🙏
It’s so important to have dialogue as well as allowing ourselves to feel our feelings and be heard. The church, as an institution has caused a lot of pain. That needs to be known.
Patrick I work with cancer patients at UCSF. I’m a nonbeliever but often talk with people who are living and dying. It’s so gratifying for me to pray with patients if that’s what they want. I feel privileged to be a part of that. I have seen acts of caring and kindness extended numerous times on a secular level as well. We all choose what works for us. I think there’s a big tent on the love for our fellow man out there. Unfortunately there’s a lot of hate too. I would not so quick to assume those soccer teammates would not step up. I’ve seen it happen
John, I feel exactly the same. I don’t want to cause pain for people and I never encourage anyone to leave the church. I will absolutely share information with them, if they ask. I will be there and support them in their journey out, if that is their choice. I so appreciate you and the good you have done for me and so many others.
I guess I’m wondering why John and those of us who have left the church are responsible for the feelings of those who remain in the church? I try to be respectful and John is overly respectful to them. But truth is truth and lies are lies. If someone asks me questions, I’m going to share what I’ve learned. If that person does the research and decides to leave…their TBM mother’s broken heart is her own. Hopefully she’ll be compelled to do her own research.
TBM?
Man, if our society could learn to have conversations like this one, there would be so much less division.
Brilliant episodes. As a complete ‘outsider’ it was probably the first time I’d heard a fully believing, still member, of the church speak, and it was good for me to hear the ‘other’ side, as so much of what I choose to listen to is stuff put out by ex-Mormons. I loved Patrick’s forthright questioning, and keeping John ‘on the hook’…it made great listening and really enabled the listener / viewer to see an alternate point of view. Thank you both for being willing to sit down, and have an open discussion like this - it’s the way forward for sure.
On Mormon Stories, we call ourselves Never-Mo's. Welcome to the community!
There is no way around it the LDS leadership has lied for such a long time, that angers some like John, it is healing for a lot of us. He has achieved a platform and let us not beat him up because he uses the platform. I owe John very much. Thank you John, love what you have achieved.
Worst interview ever. The brainwashing has been complete with Patrick. He doesn't have a a clue. Happy to be an exmormon atheist. I have zero respect for the Mormon cult or its members. Joseph Smith was a lying con.
So well said!
Caffeinated john is human , and reflects our pain
Patrick’s response to caffeinated John really shows how the church prevents people from having real, honest relationships with people
@@Nick-iw3ol I understand why they do what they do though. They want to have conversations on their terms in a way that doesn't make them uncomfortable. But it's impossible to actually have the conversation unless you're willing to hear uncomfortable things, even anger and frustration. Obligating people to bottle things up makes it worse in the end
Margi is so insightful, she speaks so clearly, I love it. Theentire conversation was really good, thanks!
What a great interview. I appreciate your openness to criticism and ability to own what you’ve said in the past. The ability you three had to have an open dialogue should inspire. It inspires me.
I'm sorry but I know many secular communities that put together outreach for homeless in LA several years ago. There's also been biker gangs that will do fundraising or car shows annually for different charities. Much of these are consistent groups that some have several years of doing direct outreach. They do exist. Much love and respect💜
Truth is truth! Mormonism can no longer claim to be truthful. Claiming the teachings of Christ should be enough. But, there is no money involved.
This was such a helpful interview. Thank you John, thank you Margi, and thank you Patrick. Open, respectful and humble dialogue is so important and I thought you all did an incredible job with this. Seriously thank you for this one👏
I think we all have parts. Parts of me are very angry at the church. Parts are grateful for being raised in it. Part of me grieves losing my faith. Part of me wants to say F it. Part of me wants to keep trying to stay and make it work. I can understand why sometimes John says he loves the church and other times he says mean things about it. Very relatable.
Regardless, good episode and I have respect for Patrick Mason. We'd all be hypocrites if we didn't listen to faithful members in the way we wish they would listen to us.
This was pure gold. I laughed, I shed tears. I want what you three talk about. I also confess along with John, guilty of using harmful rhetoric. My esteem for these 3 people had skyrocketed from these conversations. Nothing but love and thanks for all 3 of you❤ You all inspire me with your humanity, love, openness, and magnificent spirit.
I thoroughly enjoyed all the parts of this interview. Thank you all for this.
In my humble tiny opinion , I don’t watch Mormon stories to see john or anyone else name calling, but trust me to see his passion when talking about the horrific treatment of certain members really helps, when he gets angry at child abuse it helps me know we’re of the same morals etc etc but I watch because of the compassion, the care, the fact that you see John over step the mark and then be honest about it makes me love him more, people are people and we’re none of us perfect. I watch for the education, the understanding, but I never expect perfection, he’s not a prophet reading through a speech that’s been written and checked over, he’s a real human man having emotions on 99% live broadcasts and I still leave those streams respecting and loving the Mormon stories team! I’d find it incredibly hard not to scream, cry and swear constantly about it all and I can see why so much of what they hear spills over to their lives, Stay well MS family 💗 look after you!
❤️🙏
Of the 3 part series, this one was my favorite. I hope to see more of these in the future.
To John: I'd actually like to say something that RFM said in the Midnight Mormon debate since I think it applies to you as well. I say it because you seem to stress yourself out about having the responsibility of dealing with so many people's stories and dealing with people's hate and feelings. The objective truth imo is that you're not responsible for what paths people take or how information affects people. You're not responsible for telling people where to go or what to do. Your purpose is to let them speak and let them figure things out. Giving an opinion on something does not equate to telling people how to live. Kwaku tried to paint RFM as a bad guy because he wasn't trying to give people a landing place and his response was more or less what I said. Your responsibility is only to tell your truth and the objective truth, and to let others speak their truths. Otherwise you begin to act like an Apostle. You're not responsible for others' actions unless you actively tell them what to do or you strongly insinuate to them that they should do something. It can be a fine line to walk. Best of luck, as always 👍
I so loved John getting to finally vent!
I know this wasn't John's turn to ask questions and I respect him for honoring that, but if Patrick Mason can pose his second question, what does he feel for the mother of a catholic who converted to mormonism as a result of the missionary efforts?
Excellent point!
Yes. They (Patrick included) go on 2-year missions with the sole aim of "converting" people to Mormonism, which means converting them away from what they were before. Patrick's own wife's story is a story that involves the "pain" of parents and grandparents who watched her being converted away from the faith tradition of their family. Kudos to Patrick for being willing to make some compromises (e.g. wr to getting married in the temple) to soften the blows. But the church itself has strongly discouraged that kind of compromise in the past often leaving the entire family of one spouse uninvited to the wedding ceremony.
It's kind of an odd question and the subtext of the question for me is: "Do you ever think of the pain that is caused by people learning the truth from you and acting on that truth in a way that upsets their family members who are unwilling to face the truth?" So, does the church and it's "faithful" adherents only give lip service to "truth" as an ideal?
Exactly. Missionaries are tearing families apart when they convert adults. There is a lot of alienation between mainstream Christians and Mormons due to their peculiar rules, such as the coffee and tea thing, etc. Plus, many mainstream Christians would think their relatives joined a cult and that they are in danger. And a discussion is difficult because the convert would talk about Book of Mormon references that are meaningless to a Non Mormon.
This is such a great point. I taught numerous people on my mission who were creating immense problems with their family by meeting with the missionaries, and who risked complete estrangement by converting. Each time, I comforted them by reminding them of the blessings that would come from following what they "knew to be true."
In that light, this question from Patrick reflects a lack of self-awareness at best and blatant hypocrisy at worst (FWIW I find him to be a really great guy and really respect him being willing to have such an amicable, open conversation)
It would so help if all religions just STOPPED trying to convert, and pool their resources, and seriously revitalized the world...
Loved this series of interviews. As much as part of me wants to be angry or frustrated or distraught with my former church (LLDM), I also find myself just wishing it was better and devoted to truth and care. I relate so much with you guys and I remember reaching out to the exLLDM subreddit days after joining it and asking what could be done to create a positive network to help people transition from the church to life outside of it. Unfortunately not much came out of what little discussion there was, but even the existence of channels like these and relatively new ones from people like me in our 20s in the exLDS, exLLDM, exJW, exEvangelical, etc communities that try to navigate life post-religion and raise awareness about our experiences. Since I’ve distanced myself from the church 5-6 years ago, I can’t agree with you more about being happier than ever and able to pursue my goals and live life as my truest, freest, happiest, healthiest self. I really appreciate you guys and everyone at Mormon Stories for helping blaze these trails for generations of us with shared experiences both within and outside of the LDS and exLDS communities. Thank you so much.
Thank you John and Margi for saying kindly what I cannot yet ♡
I listened to this three-part discussion with interest. Patrick was as expected pleasant and congenial, but found most of his answers to be evasive and unsubstantial-ultimately confessing that problems don’t bother him because he finds the institution rewarding. In his interview of John and Margi, I found his approach a little naive, troubling, and glaringly hypocritical. There seemed to be an implied accusation that John’s activities have caused pain and division in LDS/Mormon families and that he should feel some kind of guilt. Others who like to ask such questions often imply there is something psychologically wrong with critics and former Mormons who speak out about historical problems or what they consider spiritual and emotional abuse. Yet, Patrick and others seem totally oblivious to how the activities of the LDS/Mormon missionaries might be viewed the same way. John and Margi were honest and open in their response, but I found this line of question to be insulting and absurd.
Agree wholeheartedly, Dan. That question really irritated me because even though I agree that the word "cult" is too charged to be effective--the same complaint that Patrick lobs at John could be applied equally to a family member leaving any harmful organization. I'm not saying the believers pain isn't legitimate or real--but it isn't the fault of the truthtellers.
Well said Dan Vogel.
This interview is so amazing! Love the respectful discussion they are able to have! I wish ex mormons and mormons could have more conversations like this!
Damn it, how do I give this episode more hearts?
I really feel like having Margi is the best for mormon stories . I Love it but Margi adds another important insight.
This may be the magnum opus of Mormon stories
When I hear John D. say hard or derogatory things, I hear a man who is hurt from being stonewalled and minimized by something he gave everything too. Really not any different then the wife who who's husband had been lying and cheating on her, but then the woman is blamed for "not being able to keep her man". It's really hard to be completely disregarded a person when you know your motives, and they aren't the evil things that your "spouse" seems to be getting away with. I'm not sure if I think it's an issue of wanting to be angry. Personally I think it's more of being minimized and pushed aside that makes one feel more angry. At least that's my perspective.
Ex-Catholic here. These stories resonate with me. To me, I think of you as going out of your way to be fair to the church.
For the grandparents who are feeling pain at their children and grandchildren choosing to leave the church, this is my response.
It is not selfish to choose to live life on your own terms. But it is selfish to demand others live life on your terms.
You don’t get to tell others how to live. Grow up and mature and move on.
I don't think it would be so painful for them if they didn't make everything about the church. When you teach your kids that drinking is wrong because god told you it's wrong, then when the person realizes the church is false they then want to go drink. But if you teach them it's not wrong to drink but that it's harmful, I believe the individual will still not drink even after leaving the church. no idea if that made sense
edit: my point is that a lot of the pain of family leaving the church is because they usually go on to do things that make the TBM's uncomfortable. I'm saying that the whole thing can be avoided if you don't put all your eggs in one basket (the basket being the church)
Exactly, well said. It is the Church that makes those grandparents feel bad when their kids leave the Church. Its the Church that causes those parents and grandparents to give their kids shit about leaving, that causes them to be in fear about their eternal salvation.
Exactly. That question pissed me off because it is so manipulative. The only reason some people choose to remain active is they don’t want to hurt the ones they love, so they choose to make others happy rather than live an authentic life. There is an epidemic of PIMOs in the pews because mormons are conditioned to avoid contention and please others. TBMs take advantage of this when they make it all about them. I wanted John to smack Patrick down for that stupid question, but I understand he wanted to avoid contention in this interview.
Best content ever!
You three have inspired me by having an adult, respectful conversation. This is how I grew up. Half in half not.
Many of us are inactive or stay, hoping one day things will get better. Progress is made…we need to speed things up.
Ironically, I believed the change would come because our kids would demand it. They have left instead.
I believe many who have left would want something in the “Mormon Light” category. Third hour. No judgment, worship with a diverse group, no more meetings about the next meeting. High demand no more.
Thanks again.
My personal opinion for the reason the term "cult" is so offensive to average TBM's is because for TBM's, the average church meetings are not particularly culty. Nothing about sacrament meeting or Sunday school seems very culty. But TBM's need to keep three things in mind, which are: 1.) Primary, 2.) Temples, and 3.) Missions
The culty behavior occurs mostly in those three areas.
I personally wouldn't describe our church as particularly culty until I got back from my mission and had time to process what happened to me in the field. In my mission I was isolated in a 2nd World country without being properly informed on what occurs in missions (I was spoonfed propaganda), I had my passport immediately taken away from me without consent and locked away in a vault while I was exhausted from over 30 hrs of plane rides, I was worked for over fifteen hours a day everyday and wasn't allowed to eat any meals other than lunch, I was sexually assaulted on my mission many times and was given no sympathy or care, I had church leaders breathing down my neck all the time about random garbage, I was subjected to incredibly intense psychological manipulation tactics and peer pressure and was even forced to baptize pedophiles to get the baptismal numbers up, we weren't given enough money to purchase food and so we were malnourished, we weren't given adequate housing and my friend literally had a rat gnawing on his head every night for two months, I was actively taught to use skeevy sales tactics to trick people into baptism, I was screamed at over the phone by MP when I refused to baptize another pedo, I constantly monitored to make sure that I wouldn't call my parents to try and come home, and everything I did was constantly monitored (no privacy whatsoever). There are a lot of other things that happened as well but my list is too long.
Let's not even get into the things that happen and used to happen in the temples. I think my point is understood
Excellent responses, John, Margi! Thanks!
Margi is amazing as cohost. I echo so many comments that others have already left. I was really moved at her tenderness in describing all that John and their family have been through over the past many years. I am on Team Margi!! ❤️🙌🏻
I do disagree in reference to the continuation of the Church of LDS as a church and religion. Until they come clean on all of the truth claims and be honest with the members of the church they are misleading those who are blindly being taught the gospel based on lies and untruths.
I also firmly believe that no organized religion is healthy unless it is accepting of everyone regardless of sex, gender, race, gender identity or sexual orientation. If God truly made us all then we are should be accepted and valued period. And any church that believes in a God needs to recognize that. 🏳️🌈🤎🤍🖤💜❤️🧡💛💚💙
This has been a great interview. And one i feel like i could happily share safely with a believing spouse. Thank you