It can lead to a crisis of faith when you look to your feelings and see false prophets and never being sure if you are hearing from God, it is confusion.
My wife was raised as a devout Pentecostal, she learned to appreciate the good she learned from it, but everything you said is what she came to see as it’s weaknesses. If she could add a 6th reason to your list (& it flows from reason 2) it’s that Charismatic Christianity has no expectation for their leadership to be seminary trained. In fact it is often outright discouraged, because they fear seminary will “extinguish your Pentecostal fire”. That’s actually what happened to her, she went to Talbot seminary (against the wishes of her Pentecostal pastor) & started to see the flaws in Pentecostalism, after learning from loving Evangelical, Reformed, & Anglican teachers & peers.
There is good and bad in all Christian denominations. We can learn from each other. But we must stay away from Catholicism, Mormonism, Orthodox Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. These denominations/ religions are in direct opposition to God. The Bible says not to add or take away from God's word and to serve any other god but the Creator. Please note, this is about the institution itself and not the actual followers. 1. Catholicism: infallibility of the Pope, Pope being the authority of Christ, Catholic Church being the true church started by Christ himself, adherence to the Catechism and Catholic traditions rather than the Bible 2. Orthodox Christianity: same as Catholics minus the Pope. 3. Judaism: Talmud and infallibility of Rabbis 4. Islam: "Prophet " Muhammad, Quran, Hadiths, and Kalifs 5. Mormonism: "Prophet " Joseph Smith who was a Freemason and the Book of Mormon which says the tribe of Israel landed in America 😒
Thanks Dr. Cooper! You said it very well and balanced. I was raised pentecostal and just made the transition to Lutheranism last month! What you said about objectivity (extra nos) was very pivotal in convicting me. Like you said, it’s not a denial of our emotions or the miraculous, tongues, and prophecy. God can very well use these biblical instruments! However, the question is, what defines out faith? Christ should be the center! Many genuine people in the charismatic community end up focusing on the gifts of spirit instead of the objective Word of God.
My wife and I grew up in the Charismatic Movement and barely escaped with our faith intact. We are now confessional Lutherans. Everything you said was spot on and said in a very generous manner. Many of us who suffered in this movement would not be so generous.
I'm so sorry that you experienced what you experienced in the Charismatic Church. I've been life long Charismatic and I haven't had a bad experience. I'm now an Anglican priest in training that holds closer to Lutheran theology with a Continuationist slant :)
@@TheNathanMac I am sorry about hearing a lot of bad Pentecostal and charismatic experiences too. Which I was baptized in a Oneness branch (I am now undergoing catechesis to become Lutheran) I never ever apostatized, I just backslid and internally thought I was betraying my faith by going to another church. I am glad I am going to an LCMS church now.
@@bigtobacco1098 I'm actually not a priest, after the bishops voted for sin to be blessed in the church, I stopped pursual of ordination within the anglican church. I still faithfully fellowship and serve at the church though.
01:20 Nr.1 - Fallible Prophecy 03:44 Nr.2 - Heresy is rampant 05:08 Nr.3 - Emphasis on internal religious experience 08:24 Nr.4 - Neglect of God's will as revealed in the external Word 11:14 Nr.5 - It is full of fraudsters
My family was at an Assemblies of God church for about 10 years and I definitely had some serious spiritual nervousness because I didn't feel I was sufficiently spiritual and I often found myself forcing or mimicking certain behaviors to see pious. When I left for Presbyterianism that burden came off pretty instantaneously thankfully.
All the Pentecostals I've ever known were Oneness Pentecostals. Every single one of them led a dissolute life of dissipation. However, they could all speak in tongues on demand, so they took that as assurance of their salvation. There was an Evangelical church in my town that was infiltrated by a group looking to lead people astray. My knowledge of this incident is merely hearsay, but they seemed to be teaching a related doctrine. One of their key Bible passages was Romans 11:29: "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Note well that they used the KJV for this passage because other translations don't fit their doctrine. They said that you didn't need to repent of your sins or even become a Christian to tap into the Holy Spirit's power. They too were teaching people that it was okay to lead sinful lives because the ability to manifest tongues or other signs was assurance that God accepted them as they were, without repentance.
I affirm this. When I got saved initially I got involved with a small Pentecostal Church in New England. After being let down some things I turned away from Christianity for a while. Fortunately I was encouraged by a Pastor to study John Wesley and how Pentecostalism is influenced by early Methodism and the Holiness movement, and coming back to Christ I have gotten involved with a traditional UMC church and am attending Asbury Theological Seminary. I have had the chance to go to an LCMS church during Covid that briefly opened, and have appreciated these videos.
Wow... great reasons... I grew up Charasmatic... and I left for these very reason. I now find joy in knowing that I am truly saved, because of what Jesus did on the cross... and I am still learning how to value God's word over 'hearing God's voice' or 'being led by the spirit.' There is joy in simply reading the Bible, obeying it, and not worrying about 'discerning' what God's will is.
As a Charismatic the critique is fair, and I tend to agree with most (not all) of what Chris Roseborough says about it. The movement tends to go off, and it's so sad. Cause I've seen real prophecy, tongues, and healing happen a bunch. But false nonsense keeps influencing it.
I agree completely. I enjoyed the critique. I’m a WELS Lutheran and I love this brother! What a gifted and called servant of the Lord! I’ve witnessed many of the spiritual gifts and I walk in them regularly. One thing I want our Lutheran family to know is the gifts of the Spirit are alive and well today, very much so, praise God! This isn’t to tacitly agree with all ‘charismatic’ teaching, the same way I would sharply disagree and with even oppose the ELCA on many fronts. I understand Dr. Cooper’s frustration, it sounds like he had a run in with a false prophet, and I can only imagine that would have an impact especially if that were otherwise his only exposure. However, just as I would not paint all Lutherans with an ELCA brush, I will do my best with God’s help not to paint true prophecy or other spiritual gifts with contempt.
@@RealSnail3D amen amen amen. I agree. The gifts are real, however I think the devil puts a lot of deceit in the charismatic movement to keep people from authentically experiencing God's power. I also agree that we must look to Christ, to the objective means of grace, and not to our feelings (something Charismatics do badly).
Thank you for your insightful, informative, and reasonable approach to the charismatic movement. When I first became a Christian, after having been an avowed atheist for most of my life, I almost exclusively attended charismatic churches but never felt completely comfortable with all aspects of it, especially during the worship portion of the service. Taking a more reserved, rational, analytical approach to life, including my faith, I frequently found myself in opposition to some of the teachings, beliefs, and practices of said churches. As you mentioned, I questioned the sincerity of my faith, as well as my salvation because I did not possess any of the "coveted" gifts of the Holy Spirit such as speaking in or interpreting of tongues, prophecy, healing, etc. Although I do not consider myself a Lutheran, nor do I claim any other denominational affiliation, I do find myself holding "Lutheran" positions with regard to some theological positions. My approach to my faith is that if I can find clear evidence in scripture for a certain position, as revealed to me by the Holy Spirit, I accept it. There are a few popular, almost universally held beliefs among Christians that I cannot find clear scriptural support for that are based solely on later traditions and interpretations that I simply reject. However, my view on the positions alluded to are non-essential Christian doctrines that do not determine one's eternal destination. I am looking forward to future posts as I am always learning a lot from you and walk away with my horizon broadened, and my mind expanded. God bless.
My girlfriend was raised in a catholic home and recently discovered the catholic charismatic movement. As a confessional lutheran, I'm trying to engage her in conversation and take her away from that movement. I need to say that everything you said, from the struggling with the assurance of salvation to the phenomenon of being "slain in the Spirit" is all spot on and depicts exactly the nature of this movement, as herself told me.
I never really was too much into the Charismatic movement / churches but I was part of a group (for a brief time) that had very that wanted to pray to heal my legs into regular normal legs, all I could be thinking is "Why does this group want me pray for my legs to be normal, they are fine, they work slower than other people but I rather pray for our saints that are being persecuted overseas or being in prayer to become more devoted followers of Jesus." It seems that this group wanted the "power" of healing people, instead of wanting to be more Jesus focused in all of life.
My Christian life changed dramatically when I was baptized in the Holy Spirit.Didn’t speak in tongues right away, but other things happened that I knew I was baptized in the Holy Spirit. The Lord healed my body several times,even through TV. Charismatics love to pray for healing of others. The Lord even used me to pray for healing of others. Yes, I was astonished that some were healed by Jesus through my prayers. My personal relationship with the Lord has grown by leaps and bounds after being baptized in the Holy Spirit.My guide is the Bible for myself and the church I attend. I was Catholic before. The speaker here tends to focus on the negative. Confirmation was supposed to be equated with the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Being baptized later in the HS was an experience that I didn’t expect, but I knew beyond any doubt that it was real ,more now than ever!
Hi five brother! There are so many negative comments here from former charismatics that didn't seem to really get to experience much of God. Like you I was also Roman Catholic before going to a protestant charismatic church (in my case it was non-denominational). Really experienced a lot. Like Paul would have it my faith is not based on persuasive speeches about God but on experiencing the power and reality of God. The key to experiencing God like the key to answered prayer (for the big stuff) is humility, faith, holiness and diligence.
False prophets were to be executed in the Old Teatament, Deut 18. And while execustion is no longer practiced, the standard of what constitutes a false prophet has not been changed
Thank you - this was awesome! I grew up in a charismatic word of faith church and God has been so good in taking my family out of that whole culture 🙏 agree with you 100 percent
It's not just fraud, tricks & genuine mistakes when seeking "words from God" & other extraordinary signs, there are actual spirits that, at times, can and will send great deception on those that are looking for such things.
In Dr. Cooper's "Five Reasons I am not Anglican" video: "Anglicanism is so awesome that I figured I would help contribute to Lutheranism, which is the second greatest Christian Tradition, in order to help bring it to the level of my Anglican bros." :P
Growing up charismatic I would attend these home prayer meetings and there was this old lady who claimed to be a prophet. All she really did was scream at people saying they were sinful and she would yell at families saying she knew the dad would get drunk and beat the kids in front of everyone and all sorts of crazy stuff. I saw stuff like this more than I saw actual meaningful stuff in the entire charismatic movement.
I´m classical pentecostal, in Chile most protestant population is classical pentecostal, traditional Protestantism and charismatic (neo pentecostal) are minor groups, and I agree with you. 1. Fallible prophecy, that´s an enormous problem in charismatic congregations, here there are prophecies in the church as charisma (not an office of prophet), but all prophecies are not taken as infallible prophecies, our pastors usually recommend us to "prove the prophecies", I mean if God would like to talk to you something special, he won´t just talk to you in a "prophecy", sometimes in more than just 1, and with the Bible, and other ways. And especially if a prophecy doesn´t happen is a false prophecy. 2. I totally agree, most charismatic congregations are extremely liberals and don´t have order at all. Here classical pentecostalism is very very conservative (in a Methodist Wesleyan sense), even 1 of the largest pentecostal churches until today practices many traditions like not using instruments at worship, and baptism of infants. 3. I agree that emotions are not very good for the church, I`ve seen how in other Latin American countries charismatic (excuse me for that) they seem like pagans or demonized persons, that´s not biblical, the church should be in order, and even when Pentecostalism emphasizes the spiritual baptism on Holy Spirit and charismas, these are given to the church just by grace, we cannot force them, neither imitate them, that`s very serious and bad. In conclusion, I totally agree that the charismatic movement especially for their disorder and emotional "way" is a very bad theology, and sadly is affecting all the church. th-cam.com/video/5osPc5UKGVw/w-d-xo.html That´s a video of the evangelical cathedral of Chile (the major classical pentecostal building in all Latin America, and the most important in Chilean Protestantism) of a thanksgiving service with the government and all the authorities, where we pray for the nation. (There is 2 events one time per year, one in the evangelical cathedral and another in the roman catholic cathedral)
This is a wonderful, brief summation of the reasons I’ve come to not be charismatic personally. Nothing that makes the charismatic movement stand out seems very “sober minded”, as Paul dictates. My husband was raised in much more charismatic churches than I was, and he still believes it’s very spiritual and biblical. I’m grateful for this video, because I can take points from it and explain to him why I don’t feel the same way about those churches.
As a long time Anglican charismatic I can agree with a lot you say. In particular on the objective basis of Assurance. The area of modern prophecy being of a different kind from OT prophecies I just suggest you read Gordon Fee's "God's Empowering Presence" where on the issue of prophecy he pushes back on Wayne Grudem's fallible prophecy idea. His point is the NT prophets subject their words to the discernment of the body (or the other prophets within the community) and that's not necessarily present in the OT. The prophecies that come thru/survive the process of discernment are to be received. 1 Thess 5:19-21. I think your main objection is more to revivalism and pietism rather than directly with all of the charismatic movement. The growth of the charismatic movement world wide does open the question of God's hand upon it. Within my denomination even the Archibishop of Canterbury and NT Wright are "charismatic".. my own Rector spent 10 years as a Lutheran pastor and only recently returned to Anglican ministry ..he's more charismatic than the Pentecostals up the road. Larry Christensen was a prominent charismatic who remained Lutheran. I did not find myself greatly disagreeing with your reasons.
i am myself all my life grew up as a Pentecostal first ,then more broadly as a Charismatic..I also observe how even some Roman Caholics in 1990 ies go furhter in evangelizing ,studying the Word and practicing spiritual gifts even more than some Pentecostals now many of them Evangelicals ..I also saw many contrafiet propecies ,but also saw many authentic miracles ,so sorry that bad side of Pentecostalism influenced people to throw it off ..God bless you brother !
@@bigtobacco1098 base the understanding upon 1Cor 14 it's more detailed and earlier and outside the particular salvation historical event of Pentecost. As a matter of biblical methodology. Even NT Wright (Biblical scholars) and Justin Welby( Archbishop of Canterbury )speak in tounges in line with 1 Cor 14.
On the third point I think it's worth elaborating...many in the charismatic (or even the modern "Evangelical" movement more broadly) would claim that their faith IS in Christ, but the _way in which they know this_ is the "sinner's prayer", "altar call" or "asking Jesus into my heart" they've made or done. I can not judge the heart of anyone clearly, nor would I want to, though I will say that Dr. Cooper's point here about the objective promise of Christ being the object of true biblical faith, and not an effort of the will nor a "decision" is vital. When the contrite and broken heart is met with the gospel of the free forgiveness of sins in Christ, that objective promise of truth is that to which we cling. The very truth of this gospel is the means through which the blessed Holy Spirit works true faith in Christ. Of this Biblical truth there is so very little spoken these days, turning people either to a church or to a decision or feeling instead. We believe we are justified by Christ, through faith, and this faith is not fidem fidei or faith in faith, but faith in God who can not lie.
The video brings up the question of epistemology when it comes to discerning vocational guidance: “What there is is a lot of admonition to look at Scripture as where we find the will of God. And this is not to say that I don't think God ever... You know, gives us urgings or works in our hearts to give us desires to do things… “I certainly felt a, what I think is a… divine call to the office of the ministry when I, when I pursued pastoral ministry and there was what we call an internal call. It was very clear that there was this burden on my heart to go into ministry. There was no doubt about that. And I absolutely believe that was the work of the spirit there. …But God never tells us that that's where we should look for guidance. He tells us that his word is where we should look for guidance.” (14 minutes) Actually, I think that claiming to have “no doubts” about discerning an inner call into the ministry is a bit problematic. Who can be absolutely certain about anything in life? Belief, especially as it relates to discerning God’s guidance, seems to me to be a degreed proposition. Jeremiah 17:9 states: “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?” The burden to go into ministry might not be from God, as there is no clear promise from Scripture for today that one can look to a subjective “burden to work” experiences as an infallible guide. At best one can only appeal to general principles, such as 1 Timothy 3:1, and than discern a probable inner certainty followed by external confirmation from a congregation. For example, one might come to the the conclusion that, “I’m 80% convinced about my call into the ministry.” Than, following that discernment process, one’s faith to serve is made with a 100% commitment. On the other hand, a comment is made in the video critiquing the view that “in the modern charismatic movement, there is an idea that prophecy is, is indeed fallible.” (2:18) That also is problematic. I would argue that the opposite of that viewpoint, i.e. that the gift of N.T. prophecy is infallible, is more akin to Reformed theology than to classic Lutheran theology. When Paul wrote about “eagerly desiring spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy” (1 Corinthians 14:1), the natural inference appears to be that he is not encouraging them to write Bibles. The whole nature of Bible canonicity is that only those books written by the close apostles of Jesus, or their close associates that they approved, were put into the canon as the infallible rule and norm of faith and practice. The gift of total recall (John 14:25-26; 16:12-13) was given to the close disciples of Jesus who later served as canonical apostles (with Paul grafted in, Galatians 2:8). The indirect circumstantial evidence for the gift of New Testament prophecy to not be considered infallible is how various post N.T. books & councils that claimed to be inspired (e.g. 1 Clement 45:2; Melito’s Homily on the Pascha; Council of Ephesus, etc.) were not added to the Bible. It was not because they were considered to be theologically in error, but because they were not authorized by the canonical apostles. The early 19th century Lutherans, especially in reaction to the Irvingite movement, rejected the view that prophetic gifts were given in an infallible manner. They argued that, even in New Testament times, people could misunderstand God’s guidance. The 19th century Lutheran exegete George Stoeckhardt writes in his commentary on Romans: “… It is not wrong if one defines the charism of prophecy as an inspired, magnifying outpouring concerning divine things... the New Testament prophets were not in the strict sense of the word inspired, as the prophets and apostles… ... Even if the Spirit of God did move them and give them revelation what the Spirit revealed to them, the theme which he suggested to them, they discussed in a free manner, in their own words. So it could easily happen that in their prophecy they let their own and erring thoughts enter, ... Therefore, the apostle admonishes the Christians to judge and test the prophecy…" (George Stoeckhardt, Commentary on Romans, Koehlinger Translation, page 172) The above is in line with how the Lutheran Confessions mention an illustration in the writings of the desert Fathers in which it asserts that God directed St. Anthony to do something (Apology to the Augsburg Confession, XXVII). Also, the Apology to the Augsburg Confession, XXVII, makes reference to the revelatory claims of John Hilton. Notably, the Confessions do not advocate the inclusion of Hilton’s or Anthony’s writings into the Biblical canon. That's because there is a possibility of errors among the rest of their theological writings. The 19th century Lutheran theologian, Franz Pieper, qualifies the nature of this type of inspiration by quoting the 17th century Wittenberg theologian, John Quenstedt: "We must distinguish between revelations which pertain to, or attack, an article of faith, and those which concern the state of the Church or the State, social life, and future events; the first we repudiate; the latter, however, some hold, are not to be urged with any necessity of believing, nevertheless are not to be rashly rejected.” (Franz Pieper, Christian Dogmatics, Vol. 1, p. 211) The problem with most Protestant charismatics is that many do not share their thoughts, which in many cases they believe to be as “from the Lord” in a way that does not come across as seeming to “urge a necessity of belief.” For a contrast, see Pieper’s Christian Dogmatics, Vol. 1, p. 211. But to be fair, this appears to not be the case among Lutheran charismatics. For example, in Larry Christenson’s book “Welcome Holy Spirit” the comment is made concerning prophetic speech. “A lower-keyed introduction, such as, ‘I sense that the Lord wants to tell us…’ might be a more helpful way of preparing people to receive a prophetic word.” (p. 264) At the end of the day, Christenson's advice of humbly sharing what is believed, as if from the Lord, appears to stylistically very similar to how Martin Luther comes across in his Large Catechism. For example, Luther writes in his LC, as if Christ is speaking through him in a first person sense: “See to it that you let me alone be your God, and never search for another…Whatever good thing you lack, look to me for it and seek it from me, and whenever you suffer misfortune and distress crawl to me and cling to me. I, I myself, will give you what you need and help you out of every danger. Only do not let your your heart cling to or rest in anyone else.” “…what you hoped to receive from mammon or from anything else, turn to me for all of this; look on me as the one who will help you and lavish all good things upon you richly.” Many Lutheran pastors pray to receive God's guidance as it relates to crafting their sermons and many parishioners attest to their being blessed by their timely insights for living based upon Scriptural applications. This is likely a continuation of the New Testament gift of prophecy, although not necessarily put into a first person God talk style.
Pentecostalism must look very interesting from the outside. I was born and raised in the AG and have always regarded the Word of Faith and prosperity gospel as heresy. One thing to keep in mind is that the movement is extraordinarily decentralized. Even the AG isn't technically a denomination. There is a tendency towards an inarticulate works-based salvation; however, that isn't doctrinal, neither according to scripture nor the AG. I think this is largely due to the fact that cool things do happen, so Satan tends to strike us where we are most vulnerable-our pride, and our insecurity. He deceives us into thinking that since we didn't 'do' something 'really spiritual,' our faith is less (or that because we did do something really spiritual, our faith is more!). Another common deception is that the miracles happen due to the miracle-worker, not due to God. That's one of the main ways these cults of personality develop. We do tend to attract more than our share of narcissists, for whatever reason. It's incredibly irritating. But again...none of this is due to explicit Pentecostal doctrine. Oh yeah, and to your fourth reason, I've actually had to address this personally a lot. I just say something to the effect of, "God is not out to get you. If you don't feel any specific conviction, and there's no stipulations in Scripture that pertain to the issue in question, trust God enough to do what you think is best." As for the fraud...I tend to just laugh and move on. I should probably take it more seriously. If somebody 'prophecies' something over me that doesn't seem right, I just kind of shrug and say, "Well, that was weird. Probably not from God." Edit: another suggestion for any potential Pentecostals in the comments. If you start feeling pressure to 'act more spiritual' in a public context, just go worship / pray in an explicitly 'unspiritual' way. Sitting down, laying down under blanket, etc. This has helped me keep my worship unperformative.
Like so many others who have commented below, and that we have encountered in Lutheran circles since leaving the NAR/charismania over a year ago, these are our reasons as well. We waited 20+ years for anything they boast about to come to fruition, and it was a total bust. So here we are, confessional Lutherans, thanks be to God. Happy reformation day!
Thank you for your well thought out, clear videos. I came to the faith through a Charismatic church and over the past several years came to many of the same conclusions. A couple of things that I question are 1) The spate of extra Biblical experiences from many Charismastic preachers. Have they truly gone to Heaven and Hell? Are they truly being visited by manifestations of Jesus and angels, or is is Satan disguising himself as a minister of light? 2) People being slain in the spirit and losing control of themselves. Fits of laughter and convulsions. Is there any solid Biblical proof that this is possible, or is this just a demonic Kundalini spirit?
I've no direct experience of the Charismatic movement but observing it from the outside I'm sure it isn't authentic Christianity. All this weird behaviour like being slain in the spirit is definitely demonic. It's not the Holy Spirit that these people are being overcome by but rather demon spirits as in kundalini.
I stumbled onto this channel after watching a lot of videos from fighting 4 the faiths channel and everything you just said in this video describes how I’ve been feeling about the charismatic movement over the last several months. I grew up in the Assemblies of God church as well as the Pentecostal Church of God but I’ve recently started feeling that there was something very wrong going on but I couldn’t quite put my finger on it until about a month or so ago. I would like to start exploring other denominations (if I could get my wife on board) but I honestly don’t know where to begin. iIt’s more than a little bit overwhelming trying to figure out just where I fit.
@@mcfadden139 OSAS is a perversion of the Biblical doctrine of the perseverance of saints that obviously can be traced at the very least back to Augustine in the church. Apostasy is real and you don't earn your name in the book of life by reciting some half-baked creed once, but truly none of Christ's sheep will perish, as none may snatch them out of His hand.
I do like the style of worship, how I'm free to raise my hands, kneel before God, or dance with joy. And how they don't shy away from the idea of spiritual gifts. In practice however....some of the "spiritual gifts" can get out of hand. (if they're even legit to begin with)
As is often the case with critiques of charismaticism (with the exception of #1), these are criticisms of bad charismatic practices, not with the truth of the continuation of the gifts as taught in scripture. I think it is much more important to engage with the exegetical arguments, which strongly support the continuation of the gifts and even urge us to pursue prophecy (1 Cor 14:1) rather than attack bad charismatic practice. Bad practices definitely need to be called out, but they do not warrant dismissing the entire movement and the exegesis and theology behind it.
I went to an Assemblies of God church for most of my teenage years. I really think they have a difficult time not pressuring people to have certain experiences during worship. I had good worship experiences, but also bad. Overall, a lot of the time it was very exhausting or overwhelming (music very loud, lights, fog machine, lots of people around you very emotional). I don't want to be too quick to criticize because there are genuine believers in those churches, and I definitely believe that miracles can still occur. However, I can definitely relate to the anxiety that Pentecostal churches create.
My biggest concern with them is that the miraculous is to demonstrate Christ’s power to save us from hell, not to lengthen legs or even make the blind see. If the latter were true then He has failed big time. Redemption is about our salvation from hell, not from suffering on earth. These are incompatible ends, too; we can’t give it the ol’ “both/and” sophistry treatment because then God arbitrarily heals some and lets the rest of us languish. On the contrary, God paid fully for the sins of the whole world to redeem all of us without exception. If God wants us to have any confidence in what the work of Christ is in our lives, and in what the Bible is given to us to teach, then God would close the canon as He did. Finally, on that note, a “word from God” is a “word of God” and it’s philosophically inept linguistic torture to attempt to make a difference in the distinction between the two terms.
I spent my teens and early twenties as a member of the Assemblies of God. I graduated from Pentecostal Theological seminary in 2006, but I no longer consider myself Pentecostal or Charismatic. I do believe the gifts of the spirit are active as they were in the early Church, but the Pentecostal movement has gone the way of the Corinthians in the time of Paul, over emphasizing and abusing the gifts. I often mistook my own emotions as the movement or lack of movement of the Holy Spirit. When my dad died of cancer in 2005, I was left with more questions than answers. It did serious damage to my faith. I found your Channel from your 5 reasons I'm not Anglican, which I just listened to. I am currently Anglican and have been since 2010. I can't think of 5 reasons I'm not Lutheran, at least not yet. 😂 I think the biggest influence Pentecostal and Charismatic churches have and continue to have is how they have influenced church music.
I know this is a video on the charismatic movement but are there any fellow raised Southern Baptists that found a lot of these points relevant to your upbringing?
I appreciate your five reasons and my thinking is definitely along the same lines, but I'd like you to consider one of my reasons if you have not done so elsewhere. So, my four reasons would be: 1) All the bad fruit (i.e. scandal, heresy, error), 2) The way the charismatic movement's theology decimates the assumptions that undergird the authority and inerrancy of Scripture, 3) The way the charismatic movement's theology directs its adherents away from sin and justification to anything and everything but that, and 4) The fact that the charismatic movement makes a historical claim that cannot be biblically justified. And its this later one on which I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. The original claim of both the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements is not primarily theological, but a historical. Namely, that the "spiritual gifts" had suddenly been re-manifest within the church during the 20th century after disappearing for more than 1,000 years (i.e. since the early church). Not only do I not see biblical evidence that we should expect this, but passages like "the gates of hell shall not prevail against my church" I think would lead us to believe that the fullness of what Christ has given the church has never disappeared and then reappeared some time later in history.
one of my teachers who is charismatic is getting his masters from SEU and is reading a book detailing some evidence that the charismatic movement is indeed ancient, but that the Catholic church persecuted it throughout history.
Thanks for the clearly laid out video. A possible objection to your claim at 9:25 in the video is a verse that a lot of charismatics use, Isaiah 30v21 which states And your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, “This is the way, walk in it,” when you turn to the right or when you turn to the left. They would suggest that this verse teaches that the Holy Spirit will guide us in our life decisions.
As Dr Cooper notes, we do affirm that the Spirit guides us, particularly with regard to spiritual things (the following verse refers to destroying idols and seeing their vanity). Yet it would be wrong to suppose therefore that you should receive revelation to affirm or reject each turn you take in life, and it would be utterly irreverent to misread that verse as though God is revealing to you what route you should take on your morning jog. Even if we do not "feel the Spirit" at a given moment, as the neo-Evangelicals phrase it, we can be sure that God will lead us where He would, and that He will never abandon us even when we err.
With respect to Reason No. 4, it seems to me that one's choice of spouse is a pretty big decision and that praying to God for guidance and waiting for an answer would be good things to do. The same with accepting or declining a job offer. But I agree that waiting on the Lord to tell you whether or not to take a parking space is a bit much.
My lunch break is almost over so I can’t say a whole lot, but my general defense is that while these are all totally valid points, and I also take issue with these things as a charismatic, they are all contesting culture and not doctrine. What keeps me in this theological system is that it seems to be the most accurate imitation of the life that the first generation church lived, one of prayer, community, strong desire to see the physical works of God, and want to make His kingdom present on earth in a noticeable way. Culturally I fit in more reformed people or lutherans, but doctrinally I find a straightforward interpretation of scripture almost always affirms what charismatics believe (at least in theory).
I’ll make another point against it that isn’t obvious to people who have never experienced the culture long term: transience is a HUGE problem with charismatic churches. People are chasing the literal high of emotional worship and living so heavily in a spiritual life that they never learn the foundations of the faith. When they’re corrected they just go to another church or group that doesn’t know them and is happy to have a new person that is so passionate, not realizing how much damage they may do to the whole.
I’m a charismatic Christian and I love watching your videos. You make some good points on potential dangers of that can sometimes happen in the charismatic movement. Although I know you didn’t do it intentionally I do feel there are a few straw man arguments in your critique. Nevertheless I’m sure you can agree with me that Charismatic’s can’t all be put into one box. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water.
There is a lot of emphasis on emotion, and for people who don't experience strong emotions in that way it can lead to your wondering whether or not you are really saved and such like.
I hope that you'd do a video about charismatic preachers like David Wilkerson. He has influenced my family member who is evangelical. I joined first the Lutheran church and then went back to the Orthodox church after having my childhood influenced by American charismatic preachers that seem to put a lot of emphasis on preaching style and prophecies.
I have been a charismatic for years and it's really gone faulty. Their prophecies over ride the Bible and there is no order only disorder and it's almost like anything goes. They think they are equal to God. It's all about your feelings and putting on a big show to feel the Holy Spirit
You make some good critiques which need to be made. But I think your conclusion that those examples essentially invalidate the movement in its entirety doesn't really hold water. My two biggest pushbacks would be that the same arguments could be made by atheists about Christianity as a whole ("Christianity isn't real because of all the wacko preachers out there"), and you could rightly say, "though there are several places those things happen, it doesn't represent my branch, and it doesn't invalidate the legitimate." And secondly, the critiques you mention were all present in the first century, especially in Corinth. And St. Paul's response was not to debunk it, but to bring correction to it. I would also argue you could use the same argument against preaching and teaching: i.e. concluding that since there is so much of it which gets the meaning of the text wrong, then it must be an invalid gift, which of course is a misconstrued conclusion. Scripture shows us that God often spoke prophetically to prophets in less clear ways which would be harder to interpret (Num 12). While acknowledging that there are likely quite a few "prophets" who are speaking just willy nilly, I think a lot of times it will be a misunderstanding of what a dream or image actually means or what it's application is. Again if this happens quite frequently with the infallible written word, even with those who are mostly well intended good preachers and teachers, why should we not expect it to happen with contemporary prophecy! Actually seeing the end of your video, I see that you're not a complete cessationist. But then you say scripture gives us no instruction that we should expect this, which again seems dubious. St. Paul says to seek the gift of prophecy, which if we're interpreting that word consistently in the New Testament would almost certainly apply not to preaching but to hearing something directly from the Holy Spirit. I actually think the reason most people end up rejecting the charismatic gifts is not because they've diligently interpreted the word and reasoned it out, but because they've seen either bad examples of it, or assumed what they saw was bad because it's weird and sometimes requires that we look a bit silly (the 120 appearing drunk on the day of Pentecost). Anyway, I'm a Catholic Charismatic, so I quite often take issue with some of your videos. But I still love what you're doing for your area of the vineyard!
God does speak to people. God still does miracles. Is it the same way it was during the apostles? Nope... But it still happens Prophecy can definetly still happen, but it its wrong then it proves the person who said it is not of God. I have failed to see any scriptural argument that proves the miracles can not happen today. What really confuses me is that people will pick and chose miracles that they like, but not others. For example, people will believe in the miraculous regeneration of someones soul, but not that God can regenerate someones body... Weird idea to me that does not hold up with scripture.
The modern charismatic movement is often dangerous, but are the exercising of the Spirit's gifts always ill advised? Should we avoid them or neglect them? The subjective and internal evidence of grace is not the grounds by which we're saved, especially if its mostly emotionalism. We know that the person and work of Christ is the only grounds. But, and I think you would agree, God certainly creates and expects growth in the fruit of the Spirit in internal character AND he blesses us with his Spirit's gifts. No doubt, often wildfire burns outside of the fireplace in the charismatic movement. That is a sad reality and harmful to the reputation of our Lord Jesus. Moreover, in my 25+ years of personal interactions/experiences, most churches in the charismatic movement have either no vehicles or very ineffective vehicles for correcting abuses and false teaching. However, despite all that, the gifts can be exercised correctly within a scriptural parameters and under competent and discerning church leadership. In fact, that was one of the main reasons why I converted to ACNA rather than a confessional Lutheran church. I appreciated the bishops' careful embrace and facilitation of the gifts under sound teaching practiced "decently and in order" in the context of the sacramental and liturgical life of the Church. There is certainly room for growth and no group is perfect, but as a communion, the ACNA doesn't throw out the baby with the bathwater by being dismissive, an overabundance of caution, or just bad exegesis. That being said, as an Anglican, I still really enjoy your videos and have great respect for confessional Lutherans since we're at least in agreement on 98-99% of the faith. Keep up the good work!
I’m a classical Pentecostal and I agree with you. There is much that is concerning in the Charismatic Movement. I’ve never liked it and unfortunately the majority of classical Pentecostal churches are adopting the heresies and such of the Charismatic Movement.
Okay, here's something I think people maybe aren't seeing within their own texts when it comes to this being lead around by their emotions and trafficking in spiritual things. I'm not Christian, I'm not claiming to be, I'm simply pointing something out here: if your faith is based on emotion and spiritual religious experiences, that is a spiritual weakness that would allow in demonic spirits, wouldn't it? Isn't it prohibited to seek after these things precisely because it creates an opening whereby a person gives themselves over to a demonic spirit?
Matthew 16:1-2, 4 Then the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and testing Him asked that He would show them a sign from heaven. He answered and said to them... A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” And He left them and departed. NKJV If God chooses to do a miracle in our lives then good. But we should not be hunting for them. There is way too much bs in the world of religion, and way too many times things have been proven false. Jesus warned that there would arise many false Christs and false prophets showing great signs and wonders. Matthew 24:23-26 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great SIGNS and WONDERS to DECEIVE, if possible, EVEN THE ELECT. See, I have told you beforehand. “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. NKJV Matthew 7:13-23 Enter by the NARROW gate; for WIDE is the gate and BROAD is the way that leads to DESTRUCTION, and there are MANY who go in by it. Because NARROW is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are FEW who find it. “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their FRUITS. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears GOOD FRUIT, but a bad tree bears BAD FRUIT. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their FRUITS you will KNOW them. “NOT EVERYONE WHO SAYS TO ME, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not PROPHESIED in Your name, CAST OUT DEMONS in Your name, and done many WONDERS in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ NKJV The Greek word translated as wonders is DUNAMIS which means miraculous power, miracles, marvelous works. trust in Christ alone, and obey the gospel. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all POWER, SIGNS, AND LYING WONDERS, and with all UNRIGHTEOUSNESS DECEPTION among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason GOD WILL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe the LIE, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. NKJV
@@Jonathan-si2nd i think you might have misunderstand my comment. If God chooses to do a miracle in our lives then thats good. However we should not be chasing after these things. First off scripture is closed, so there can be no more new inspired revelations or prophecies to add to scripture. Second preaching the gospel and calling people to repentance and faith in Christ, or warning against sin, and preaching the testimony of Christ is a form of Prophesying, as we preach the prophetic scriptures. Revelation 19:10 ...For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of Prophecy. Third scripture warns about false prophets Deuteronomy 18:20-22 But the prophet who PRESUMES to speak a word in My name, which I have NOT commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’- when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the THING DOES NOT HAPPEN OR COME TO PASS, THAT IS THE THING WHICH THE LORD HAS NOT SPOKEN; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. NKJV 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. NKJV One who claims to be a prophet must be 100% accurate all the time. And those who aren't are false prophets. Since there seem to be millions of prophets in the charismatic movement, who has time to try to figure our whos real or not. None of us can live long enough. Since God is not the author of confusion, the scriptures are all the prophecy we need. And if someone claims to be a prophet, then test them by scripture, and see if their prophecy comes true. And if their seeking their own glory, or preaching another god, then there's no need to trust them. Deuteronomy 13:1-5 "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’-which you have not known-‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.
@@Jonathan-si2nd i might add 1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. NKJV You quoted 1 Thessalonians 5:19-20, but you left out verse 21 which says, "Test all things; hold fast what is good." NKJV Don't blindly believe everything you hear. I would also read 1 Corinthians 14 in full context. Paul gives specific instructions on spiritual gifts, which most don't even follow.
The problems in the Charismatic Movement mentioned here have been echoed by John MacArthur. Nevertheless, I don’t believe the Bible supports cessationism. We are commended by John the Apostle to test the spirits 1 John 4: 1. “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. “. We should test EVERYTHING against the canon of Scripture (what has God said already).
Implying that the only options are the charismatic movement or cessationism is a bit of an either/or fallacy. Plenty of us don't identify with the charismatic movement and still aren't cessationist by any means.
If people were put to death for false prophecies (like God commands) then there would be FAR less "prophesying" going on. And those who (in theory) actually put their lives on the line would make way mire certain they were hearing from God and not demons...
As a Charismatic I think the best context you can anchor that theology is in historic tradition (Reformed, Anglican, or Lutheran). The movement itself has all the problems of evangelicalism and montanism all mixed together. It's a mess. The worship music is amazing, imo, but the theology is problematic. I think for fallible prophecy 1 Thessalonians 5:20 seems to imply this, also Agabus is said to have given true prophecy in the book of Acts and then gives one that doesn't completely go the same as he said.
The charismatic movement is an aberrant form of Christisnity. While it contains many genuine Christians it has been the launching pad for far too many moden heresies.
Fallible Prophecy: Jeremiah even tests Micah's prophecy by that which has already been revealed (I.E for us that's scripture). Prophecy is fallible as it has to be tested by that which is infallible. Also, there is a difference between Old and New Testament prophecy, it doesn't carry the same authority as it did in the Old Testament. There are a whole bunch of people who were said to be prophets in the New Testament and even some who prophesied to Paul in which he totally ignored it because it didn't sit with him well. Heresey: I wouldn't say there is a lot of this, but this is mainly in the prosperity Gospel. Dr Michael Brown is definitely doing some great works here in challenges the wrong ideas. Emotionalism: Christianity is one of the Head (mind) and Heart (experience) - Pentecostals are the only ones who say baptism of the spirit with the sign of tongues. 3rd Wavers don't believe that at all. Scripture is to be experienced as well as known, otherwise, it's just dry religion and not a living one in communion with God. I'm a charismatic that doesn't have these big emotional experiences except when I'm praying on my knees before a cross, but I have sometimes had big experiences like that. 4th Point: Absolutely agree with this, and this is something I am constantly challenging. However, in the scriptures people still sought after God to discern what He wants them to do... for example, whether a mission trip is right to do. Fraudulent: This upsets me that this happens. But what I would say is that we can't throw out what is genuine by judging it at its worst. If my neighbours had a terrible, abusive marriage, I wouldn't leave my marriage even if mine was great just because of the knowledge that there is bad marriage. And please know I say this loving Lutheran Theology (if there was a Lutheran church in the channel islands I probably wouldn't be going for Anglican ordination). But growing up Charismatic, I do love the Charismatic Church, it's a shame that the frauds are the most popular, but they are actually the smaller section of the charismatic church. And just a pushback... we're told to eagerly desire prophecy, and not to reject it but to test it.
I'm interested in your claim that "There is a difference between Old Testament and New Testament prophecy." Could you explain what the difference is, where this is explained in scripture, and why it makes sense for God to make such a change over time?
@@josephbirch3635 one was authoritative, the other wasn’t, pretty simple actually. Thessalonians are encouraged to prophecy, as are the Corinthians, as are the other prophets mentioned in the NT, yet their prophecies do not form scripture. Clear examples in acts of people prophesying and Paul going against it.
As a member of a Pentecostal organization, I do not doubt my personal "mystical" experience, but the amount of hand wringing around the searching for God's will and "feeling" a certain way is certainly there. Fortunately, there are several ministers who will admonish people that His Word is the ultimate guide, and we need not worry or be anxious. Nevertheless, seeking signs from God, as opposed to trusting God and His Word (like you say, using what is already revealed to us) is a major temptation for the Pentecostal movement, and it's honestly shameful.
1. The abuse does not negate the use. The Corinthians abused the gifts and Paul corrected them while encouraging their pursuit of the gifts. 2. We ARE called to seek supernatural gifts from God (especially prophecy) unless you just took white out and removed 1 Corinthians 12-14. 3. Check out some writings by Dr. Craig Keener. 4. Generally speaking I really enjoy your work. Just think you are speaking from bad experience here not Scripture.
The true question should be neither what you are or aren't but rather what does the Bible say you should be. The Spirit-filled life God offers is part of the true gospel. According to Paul in Galatians 1: 6-9 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Galatians 3:5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? The thing all preachers, teachers, ministers of every kind need to be concerned is, are they preaching the true gospel? According to Paul in Galatians 1: 6-9 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! According to Jesus the gospel has a name. Mt. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. In Acts 2:14-21 Peter begins his gospel message with the prophet Joel talking about the Holy Spirit being poured out on all people. Then he switches to a message about Jesus Acts 2:22-33. Then back to the Holy Spirit Acts 2:33. Then back to Jesus Acts 2:34-36, and then what those who heard him (Peter) needed to do Act 2:37-39. Three things were required after they believed the message about Jesus; 1. repent, 2. be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and 3. receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Remember Peter said this was for everybody, Acts 2:39. This is the original gospel of the kingdom message. The message (good news) isn't just about Jesus, it's about the Holy Spirit too. Why? Because 1. The kingdom of God is in the Holy Spirit, Rom. 14:17. 2. The kingdom of God belonged to Israel until Jesus took it away from them and gave it to the church, Mat. 21:43. 3. The power the church needs to do kingdom work is in the Holy Spirit, Acts 1:8. 4. The church was supposed to continue the work Jesus did after he left, John 14:11-12. 5. The apostles, prophets, and other believers, did just that throughout the book of Acts. 6. The gifts of the Holy Spirit; Heb. 2:3-4 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. What gospel are they preaching in your church? If they only preach about Jesus that's not enough, that's not the gospel of the kingdom. There's a false doctrine being taught called "cessationism" which states that the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit ended. There are no more miracles, or signs and wonders, no Spiritual gifts. Some say the gospel is just about Jesus today, not the kingdom. What does Jesus say? It's the gospel of the kingdom from beginning to end. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar preaching a different gospel. It's nothing but a great deception from the devil who's trying to stop the advancement of the kingdom of God. Mt. 12:30-32 “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. Who's side are you on? Who are you going to believe? You don't have to get involved with anything that's not of God. Trust the word of God and the Holy Spirit. They never contradict each other. You can live a Spirit-filled life and avoid the deception, error and foolishness in our world today.
Here’s a thought, how about doing a video of the things that you appreciate in other traditions. If all I ever hear is what’s wrong with this or that tradition it causes me grief. Of course, we want the lies and errors exposed but where is the edification, exhortation, acknowledgement of the good 🤔?
Could only listen to the first point to help me decide the rest. New Testament prophecy is correctable and that is not a sin, but it is God's training session for His own trying out to serve Him in Faith, as they struggle to walk in their baby steps from crawling. "Let two or three prophets speak and let others weigh" 1 Cor 14:29
I know I'm not a cessationist. I have had dreams/visions/very specific confirmations and answers to prayer come to pass but I agree there is a lot of fraud and false things going on in the charismatic movement. To me it's just a segment of a deep relationship with God. It's something he puts on you and it cannot be forced or generated.
From a Lutheran perspective, the process of salvation itself is a supernatural act. It’s not that we don’t believe in any supernatural forces working here on Earth, it’s that we believe that there are certain signs and gifts that were present in the Apostolic Age but are no longer active.
5 reasons i am not a theological liberal would be awesome!
As a (conservative) Anglican here who loves your channel, I look forward to your "5 Reasons Why I'm Not Anglican" video.
I second this!
My one reason why I am not charismatic: because I WAS charismatic.
Is it bad that I feel compelled to appeal to my cousins to leave the charismatic movement?
Same.
Me too
same
@@Airman1121its not inherently bad, if you apeal to him be nice and try to keep the focus on the issue, god help you
It can lead to a crisis of faith when you look to your feelings and see false prophets and never being sure if you are hearing from God, it is confusion.
My wife was raised as a devout Pentecostal, she learned to appreciate the good she learned from it, but everything you said is what she came to see as it’s weaknesses. If she could add a 6th reason to your list (& it flows from reason 2) it’s that Charismatic Christianity has no expectation for their leadership to be seminary trained. In fact it is often outright discouraged, because they fear seminary will “extinguish your Pentecostal fire”. That’s actually what happened to her, she went to Talbot seminary (against the wishes of her Pentecostal pastor) & started to see the flaws in Pentecostalism, after learning from loving Evangelical, Reformed, & Anglican teachers & peers.
There is good and bad in all Christian denominations. We can learn from each other. But we must stay away from Catholicism, Mormonism, Orthodox Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. These denominations/ religions are in direct opposition to God. The Bible says not to add or take away from God's word and to serve any other god but the Creator. Please note, this is about the institution itself and not the actual followers.
1. Catholicism: infallibility of the Pope, Pope being the authority of Christ, Catholic Church being the true church started by Christ himself, adherence to the Catechism and Catholic traditions rather than the Bible
2. Orthodox Christianity: same as Catholics minus the Pope.
3. Judaism: Talmud and infallibility of Rabbis
4. Islam: "Prophet " Muhammad, Quran, Hadiths, and Kalifs
5. Mormonism: "Prophet " Joseph Smith who was a Freemason and the Book of Mormon which says the tribe of Israel landed in America 😒
Thanks Dr. Cooper! You said it very well and balanced. I was raised pentecostal and just made the transition to Lutheranism last month!
What you said about objectivity (extra nos) was very pivotal in convicting me. Like you said, it’s not a denial of our emotions or the miraculous, tongues, and prophecy. God can very well use these biblical instruments! However, the question is, what defines out faith? Christ should be the center! Many genuine people in the charismatic community end up focusing on the gifts of spirit instead of the objective Word of God.
I am Pentecostal and I believe Christ is the centre of my faith
My wife and I grew up in the Charismatic Movement and barely escaped with our faith intact. We are now confessional Lutherans. Everything you said was spot on and said in a very generous manner. Many of us who suffered in this movement would not be so generous.
This is me too, Luther Rocks!
I'm so sorry that you experienced what you experienced in the Charismatic Church.
I've been life long Charismatic and I haven't had a bad experience. I'm now an Anglican priest in training that holds closer to Lutheran theology with a Continuationist slant :)
@@TheNathanMac I am sorry about hearing a lot of bad Pentecostal and charismatic experiences too. Which I was baptized in a Oneness branch (I am now undergoing catechesis to become Lutheran) I never ever apostatized, I just backslid and internally thought I was betraying my faith by going to another church. I am glad I am going to an LCMS church now.
@@TheNathanMacpriests like you are one reason I departed anglican churches
@@bigtobacco1098 I'm actually not a priest, after the bishops voted for sin to be blessed in the church, I stopped pursual of ordination within the anglican church. I still faithfully fellowship and serve at the church though.
01:20 Nr.1 - Fallible Prophecy
03:44 Nr.2 - Heresy is rampant
05:08 Nr.3 - Emphasis on internal religious experience
08:24 Nr.4 - Neglect of God's will as revealed in the external Word
11:14 Nr.5 - It is full of fraudsters
My family was at an Assemblies of God church for about 10 years and I definitely had some serious spiritual nervousness because I didn't feel I was sufficiently spiritual and I often found myself forcing or mimicking certain behaviors to see pious. When I left for Presbyterianism that burden came off pretty instantaneously thankfully.
All the Pentecostals I've ever known were Oneness Pentecostals. Every single one of them led a dissolute life of dissipation. However, they could all speak in tongues on demand, so they took that as assurance of their salvation.
There was an Evangelical church in my town that was infiltrated by a group looking to lead people astray. My knowledge of this incident is merely hearsay, but they seemed to be teaching a related doctrine. One of their key Bible passages was Romans 11:29: "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." (Note well that they used the KJV for this passage because other translations don't fit their doctrine. They said that you didn't need to repent of your sins or even become a Christian to tap into the Holy Spirit's power. They too were teaching people that it was okay to lead sinful lives because the ability to manifest tongues or other signs was assurance that God accepted them as they were, without repentance.
This is legit. Thank the Lord that I’m not charismatic anymore.
I affirm this. When I got saved initially I got involved with a small Pentecostal Church in New England. After being let down some things I turned away from Christianity for a while. Fortunately I was encouraged by a Pastor to study John Wesley and how Pentecostalism is influenced by early Methodism and the Holiness movement, and coming back to Christ I have gotten involved with a traditional UMC church and am attending Asbury Theological Seminary. I have had the chance to go to an LCMS church during Covid that briefly opened, and have appreciated these videos.
Alot of easy believeism, seeker sensitive falls in the charismatic movement.
I am a Charismatic and I agree with you on much of this. Keep up the good work!
Are you both Mormon and charismatic?
Yes the charismatic movement teaches a lot of weird weird things indeed.
I was in a church and a young woman prophesied over me and my wife, with similar results: Disastrously wrong. It felt more like a psychic reading.
Wow... great reasons... I grew up Charasmatic... and I left for these very reason. I now find joy in knowing that I am truly saved, because of what Jesus did on the cross... and I am still learning how to value God's word over 'hearing God's voice' or 'being led by the spirit.' There is joy in simply reading the Bible, obeying it, and not worrying about 'discerning' what God's will is.
As a Charismatic the critique is fair, and I tend to agree with most (not all) of what Chris Roseborough says about it.
The movement tends to go off, and it's so sad. Cause I've seen real prophecy, tongues, and healing happen a bunch. But false nonsense keeps influencing it.
I agree completely. I enjoyed the critique. I’m a WELS Lutheran and I love this brother! What a gifted and called servant of the Lord!
I’ve witnessed many of the spiritual gifts and I walk in them regularly. One thing I want our Lutheran family to know is the gifts of the Spirit are alive and well today, very much so, praise God! This isn’t to tacitly agree with all ‘charismatic’ teaching, the same way I would sharply disagree and with even oppose the ELCA on many fronts.
I understand Dr. Cooper’s frustration, it sounds like he had a run in with a false prophet, and I can only imagine that would have an impact especially if that were otherwise his only exposure. However, just as I would not paint all Lutherans with an ELCA brush, I will do my best with God’s help not to paint true prophecy or other spiritual gifts with contempt.
@@RealSnail3D amen amen amen. I agree. The gifts are real, however I think the devil puts a lot of deceit in the charismatic movement to keep people from authentically experiencing God's power. I also agree that we must look to Christ, to the objective means of grace, and not to our feelings (something Charismatics do badly).
Same! I do agree mostly with Lutherans but still believe in working of gifts!
Where are the real gifts ???
@@RealSnail3D Which spiritual gifts do you regularly walk in? Would you mind sharing some positive examples from your recent experience?
Take some classes. You can develop a charismatic personality. Don't be so hard yourself. I think you're pretty charismatic.
underrated comment
Thank you for your insightful, informative, and reasonable approach to the charismatic movement. When I first became a Christian, after having been an avowed atheist for most of my life, I almost exclusively attended charismatic churches but never felt completely comfortable with all aspects of it, especially during the worship portion of the service. Taking a more reserved, rational, analytical approach to life, including my faith, I frequently found myself in opposition to some of the teachings, beliefs, and practices of said churches. As you mentioned, I questioned the sincerity of my faith, as well as my salvation because I did not possess any of the "coveted" gifts of the Holy Spirit such as speaking in or interpreting of tongues, prophecy, healing, etc.
Although I do not consider myself a Lutheran, nor do I claim any other denominational affiliation, I do find myself holding "Lutheran" positions with regard to some theological positions. My approach to my faith is that if I can find clear evidence in scripture for a certain position, as revealed to me by the Holy Spirit, I accept it. There are a few popular, almost universally held beliefs among Christians that I cannot find clear scriptural support for that are based solely on later traditions and interpretations that I simply reject. However, my view on the positions alluded to are non-essential Christian doctrines that do not determine one's eternal destination.
I am looking forward to future posts as I am always learning a lot from you and walk away with my horizon broadened, and my mind expanded. God bless.
The worship services in Pentacostal churches are the absolute worst.
Very well said. I bet you could of kept going. Thank you and God's peace be with you.
Grew up Pentecostal/Charismatic, everything said here precisely corresponds with my experience as well. Not there anymore needless to say.
My girlfriend was raised in a catholic home and recently discovered the catholic charismatic movement. As a confessional lutheran, I'm trying to engage her in conversation and take her away from that movement. I need to say that everything you said, from the struggling with the assurance of salvation to the phenomenon of being "slain in the Spirit" is all spot on and depicts exactly the nature of this movement, as herself told me.
This is also in the RC Church? Do they speak in tongues and all that?
I never really was too much into the Charismatic movement / churches but I was part of a group (for a brief time) that had very that wanted to pray to heal my legs into regular normal legs, all I could be thinking is "Why does this group want me pray for my legs to be normal, they are fine, they work slower than other people but I rather pray for our saints that are being persecuted overseas or being in prayer to become more devoted followers of Jesus." It seems that this group wanted the "power" of healing people, instead of wanting to be more Jesus focused in all of life.
My Christian life changed dramatically when I was baptized in the Holy Spirit.Didn’t speak in tongues right away, but other things happened that I knew I was baptized in the Holy Spirit. The Lord healed my body several times,even through TV. Charismatics love to pray for healing of others. The Lord even used me to pray for healing of others. Yes, I was astonished that some were healed by Jesus through my prayers. My personal relationship with the Lord has grown by leaps and bounds after being baptized in the Holy Spirit.My guide is the Bible for myself and the church I attend. I was Catholic before. The speaker here tends to focus on the negative. Confirmation was supposed to be equated with the receiving of the Holy Spirit. Being baptized later in the HS was an experience that I didn’t expect, but I knew beyond any doubt that it was real ,more now than ever!
Hi five brother! There are so many negative comments here from former charismatics that didn't seem to really get to experience much of God.
Like you I was also Roman Catholic before going to a protestant charismatic church (in my case it was non-denominational). Really experienced a lot.
Like Paul would have it my faith is not based on persuasive speeches about God but on experiencing the power and reality of God.
The key to experiencing God like the key to answered prayer (for the big stuff) is humility, faith, holiness and diligence.
False prophets were to be executed in the Old Teatament, Deut 18.
And while execustion is no longer practiced, the standard of what constitutes a false prophet has not been changed
Thank you - this was awesome! I grew up in a charismatic word of faith church and God has been so good in taking my family out of that whole culture 🙏 agree with you 100 percent
It's not just fraud, tricks & genuine mistakes when seeking "words from God"
& other extraordinary signs, there are actual spirits that, at times, can and will send great deception on those that are looking for such things.
In Dr. Cooper's "Five Reasons I am not Anglican" video: "Anglicanism is so awesome that I figured I would help contribute to Lutheranism, which is the second greatest Christian Tradition, in order to help bring it to the level of my Anglican bros."
:P
@@Jonathan-si2nd dude, I'm just giving a lighthearted joke. I'm not interested in defending my Tradition simply because you missed the joke.
Growing up charismatic I would attend these home prayer meetings and there was this old lady who claimed to be a prophet. All she really did was scream at people saying they were sinful and she would yell at families saying she knew the dad would get drunk and beat the kids in front of everyone and all sorts of crazy stuff. I saw stuff like this more than I saw actual meaningful stuff in the entire charismatic movement.
I am a charismatic, and I agree with all your points. I am very sceptical of the movement, but open to the gifts.
I´m classical pentecostal, in Chile most protestant population is classical pentecostal, traditional Protestantism and charismatic (neo pentecostal) are minor groups, and I agree with you.
1. Fallible prophecy, that´s an enormous problem in charismatic congregations, here there are prophecies in the church as charisma (not an office of prophet), but all prophecies are not taken as infallible prophecies, our pastors usually recommend us to "prove the prophecies", I mean if God would like to talk to you something special, he won´t just talk to you in a "prophecy", sometimes in more than just 1, and with the Bible, and other ways. And especially if a prophecy doesn´t happen is a false prophecy.
2. I totally agree, most charismatic congregations are extremely liberals and don´t have order at all. Here classical pentecostalism is very very conservative (in a Methodist Wesleyan sense), even 1 of the largest pentecostal churches until today practices many traditions like not using instruments at worship, and baptism of infants.
3. I agree that emotions are not very good for the church, I`ve seen how in other Latin American countries charismatic (excuse me for that) they seem like pagans or demonized persons, that´s not biblical, the church should be in order, and even when Pentecostalism emphasizes the spiritual baptism on Holy Spirit and charismas, these are given to the church just by grace, we cannot force them, neither imitate them, that`s very serious and bad.
In conclusion, I totally agree that the charismatic movement especially for their disorder and emotional "way" is a very bad theology, and sadly is affecting all the church.
th-cam.com/video/5osPc5UKGVw/w-d-xo.html That´s a video of the evangelical cathedral of Chile (the major classical pentecostal building in all Latin America, and the most important in Chilean Protestantism) of a thanksgiving service with the government and all the authorities, where we pray for the nation. (There is 2 events one time per year, one in the evangelical cathedral and another in the roman catholic cathedral)
This is a wonderful, brief summation of the reasons I’ve come to not be charismatic personally. Nothing that makes the charismatic movement stand out seems very “sober minded”, as Paul dictates.
My husband was raised in much more charismatic churches than I was, and he still believes it’s very spiritual and biblical. I’m grateful for this video, because I can take points from it and explain to him why I don’t feel the same way about those churches.
Happy Reformation day!!!
I love the colours of the thumbnail
You were very soft on your critique, just my opinion haha! God bless
As a long time Anglican charismatic I can agree with a lot you say. In particular on the objective basis of Assurance. The area of modern prophecy being of a different kind from OT prophecies I just suggest you read Gordon Fee's "God's Empowering Presence" where on the issue of prophecy he pushes back on Wayne Grudem's fallible prophecy idea. His point is the NT prophets subject their words to the discernment of the body (or the other prophets within the community) and that's not necessarily present in the OT. The prophecies that come thru/survive the process of discernment are to be received. 1 Thess 5:19-21.
I think your main objection is more to revivalism and pietism rather than directly with all of the charismatic movement.
The growth of the charismatic movement world wide does open the question of God's hand upon it. Within my denomination even the Archibishop of Canterbury and NT Wright are "charismatic".. my own Rector spent 10 years as a Lutheran pastor and only recently returned to Anglican ministry ..he's more charismatic than the Pentecostals up the road.
Larry Christensen was a prominent charismatic who remained Lutheran.
I did not find myself greatly disagreeing with your reasons.
i am myself all my life grew up as a Pentecostal first ,then more broadly as a Charismatic..I also observe how even some Roman Caholics in 1990 ies go furhter in evangelizing ,studying the Word and practicing spiritual gifts even more than some Pentecostals now many of them Evangelicals ..I also saw many contrafiet propecies ,but also saw many authentic miracles ,so sorry that bad side of Pentecostalism influenced people to throw it off ..God bless you brother !
I'll take any examples of Acts 2 type tongues today
@@bigtobacco1098 base the understanding upon 1Cor 14 it's more detailed and earlier and outside the particular salvation historical event of Pentecost. As a matter of biblical methodology.
Even NT Wright (Biblical scholars) and Justin Welby( Archbishop of Canterbury )speak in tounges in line with 1 Cor 14.
@Liminalplace1 I'm open for examples... and no.... Acts 2 was the first example
@@Liminalplace1 and if the pope himself is speaking gibberish, he's just speaking gibberish
On the third point I think it's worth elaborating...many in the charismatic (or even the modern "Evangelical" movement more broadly) would claim that their faith IS in Christ, but the _way in which they know this_ is the "sinner's prayer", "altar call" or "asking Jesus into my heart" they've made or done. I can not judge the heart of anyone clearly, nor would I want to, though I will say that Dr. Cooper's point here about the objective promise of Christ being the object of true biblical faith, and not an effort of the will nor a "decision" is vital. When the contrite and broken heart is met with the gospel of the free forgiveness of sins in Christ, that objective promise of truth is that to which we cling. The very truth of this gospel is the means through which the blessed Holy Spirit works true faith in Christ. Of this Biblical truth there is so very little spoken these days, turning people either to a church or to a decision or feeling instead. We believe we are justified by Christ, through faith, and this faith is not fidem fidei or faith in faith, but faith in God who can not lie.
The video brings up the question of epistemology when it comes to discerning vocational guidance:
“What there is is a lot of admonition to look at Scripture as where we find the will of God. And this is not to say that I don't think God ever... You know, gives us urgings or works in our hearts to give us desires to do things…
“I certainly felt a, what I think is a… divine call to the office of the ministry when I, when I pursued pastoral ministry and there was what we call an internal call. It was very clear that there was this burden on my heart to go into ministry. There was no doubt about that. And I absolutely believe that was the work of the spirit there. …But God never tells us that that's where we should look for guidance. He tells us that his word is where we should look for guidance.” (14 minutes)
Actually, I think that claiming to have “no doubts” about discerning an inner call into the ministry is a bit problematic. Who can be absolutely certain about anything in life? Belief, especially as it relates to discerning God’s guidance, seems to me to be a degreed proposition.
Jeremiah 17:9 states: “The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?” The burden to go into ministry might not be from God, as there is no clear promise from Scripture for today that one can look to a subjective “burden to work” experiences as an infallible guide. At best one can only appeal to general principles, such as 1 Timothy 3:1, and than discern a probable inner certainty followed by external confirmation from a congregation. For example, one might come to the the conclusion that, “I’m 80% convinced about my call into the ministry.” Than, following that discernment process, one’s faith to serve is made with a 100% commitment.
On the other hand, a comment is made in the video critiquing the view that “in the modern charismatic movement, there is an idea that prophecy is, is indeed fallible.” (2:18)
That also is problematic. I would argue that the opposite of that viewpoint, i.e. that the gift of N.T. prophecy is infallible, is more akin to Reformed theology than to classic Lutheran theology.
When Paul wrote about “eagerly desiring spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy” (1 Corinthians 14:1), the natural inference appears to be that he is not encouraging them to write Bibles.
The whole nature of Bible canonicity is that only those books written by the close apostles of Jesus, or their close associates that they approved, were put into the canon as the infallible rule and norm of faith and practice.
The gift of total recall (John 14:25-26; 16:12-13) was given to the close disciples of Jesus who later served as canonical apostles (with Paul grafted in, Galatians 2:8).
The indirect circumstantial evidence for the gift of New Testament prophecy to not be considered infallible is how various post N.T. books & councils that claimed to be inspired (e.g. 1 Clement 45:2; Melito’s Homily on the Pascha; Council of Ephesus, etc.) were not added to the Bible. It was not because they were considered to be theologically in error, but because they were not authorized by the canonical apostles.
The early 19th century Lutherans, especially in reaction to the Irvingite movement, rejected the view that prophetic gifts were given in an infallible manner. They argued that, even in New Testament times, people could misunderstand God’s guidance. The 19th century Lutheran exegete George Stoeckhardt writes in his commentary on Romans:
“… It is not wrong if one defines the charism of prophecy as an inspired, magnifying outpouring concerning divine things... the New Testament prophets were not in the strict sense of the word inspired, as the prophets and apostles…
... Even if the Spirit of God did move them and give them revelation what the Spirit revealed to them, the theme which he suggested to them, they discussed in a free manner, in their own words. So it could easily happen that in their prophecy they let their own and erring thoughts enter, ... Therefore, the apostle admonishes the Christians to judge and test the prophecy…" (George Stoeckhardt, Commentary on Romans, Koehlinger Translation, page 172)
The above is in line with how the Lutheran Confessions mention an illustration in the writings of the desert Fathers in which it asserts that God directed St. Anthony to do something (Apology to the Augsburg Confession, XXVII). Also, the Apology to the Augsburg Confession, XXVII, makes reference to the revelatory claims of John Hilton. Notably, the Confessions do not advocate the inclusion of Hilton’s or Anthony’s writings into the Biblical canon. That's because there is a possibility of errors among the rest of their theological writings.
The 19th century Lutheran theologian, Franz Pieper, qualifies the nature of this type of inspiration by quoting the 17th century Wittenberg theologian, John Quenstedt:
"We must distinguish between revelations which pertain to, or attack, an article of faith, and those which concern the state of the Church or the State, social life, and future events; the first we repudiate; the latter, however, some hold, are not to be urged with any necessity of believing, nevertheless are not to be rashly rejected.” (Franz Pieper, Christian Dogmatics, Vol. 1, p. 211)
The problem with most Protestant charismatics is that many do not share their thoughts, which in many cases they believe to be as “from the Lord” in a way that does not come across as seeming to “urge a necessity of belief.” For a contrast, see Pieper’s Christian Dogmatics, Vol. 1, p. 211.
But to be fair, this appears to not be the case among Lutheran charismatics. For example, in Larry Christenson’s book “Welcome Holy Spirit” the comment is made concerning prophetic speech. “A lower-keyed introduction, such as, ‘I sense that the Lord wants to tell us…’ might be a more helpful way of preparing people to receive a prophetic word.” (p. 264)
At the end of the day, Christenson's advice of humbly sharing what is believed, as if from the Lord, appears to stylistically very similar to how Martin Luther comes across in his Large Catechism. For example, Luther writes in his LC, as if Christ is speaking through him in a first person sense:
“See to it that you let me alone be your God, and never search for another…Whatever good thing you lack, look to me for it and seek it from me, and whenever you suffer misfortune and distress crawl to me and cling to me. I, I myself, will give you what you need and help you out of every danger. Only do not let your your heart cling to or rest in anyone else.”
“…what you hoped to receive from mammon or from anything else, turn to me for all of this; look on me as the one who will help you and lavish all good things upon you richly.”
Many Lutheran pastors pray to receive God's guidance as it relates to crafting their sermons and many parishioners attest to their being blessed by their timely insights for living based upon Scriptural applications. This is likely a continuation of the New Testament gift of prophecy, although not necessarily put into a first person God talk style.
Pentecostalism must look very interesting from the outside. I was born and raised in the AG and have always regarded the Word of Faith and prosperity gospel as heresy. One thing to keep in mind is that the movement is extraordinarily decentralized. Even the AG isn't technically a denomination. There is a tendency towards an inarticulate works-based salvation; however, that isn't doctrinal, neither according to scripture nor the AG. I think this is largely due to the fact that cool things do happen, so Satan tends to strike us where we are most vulnerable-our pride, and our insecurity. He deceives us into thinking that since we didn't 'do' something 'really spiritual,' our faith is less (or that because we did do something really spiritual, our faith is more!). Another common deception is that the miracles happen due to the miracle-worker, not due to God. That's one of the main ways these cults of personality develop. We do tend to attract more than our share of narcissists, for whatever reason. It's incredibly irritating. But again...none of this is due to explicit Pentecostal doctrine.
Oh yeah, and to your fourth reason, I've actually had to address this personally a lot. I just say something to the effect of, "God is not out to get you. If you don't feel any specific conviction, and there's no stipulations in Scripture that pertain to the issue in question, trust God enough to do what you think is best." As for the fraud...I tend to just laugh and move on. I should probably take it more seriously. If somebody 'prophecies' something over me that doesn't seem right, I just kind of shrug and say, "Well, that was weird. Probably not from God."
Edit: another suggestion for any potential Pentecostals in the comments. If you start feeling pressure to 'act more spiritual' in a public context, just go worship / pray in an explicitly 'unspiritual' way. Sitting down, laying down under blanket, etc. This has helped me keep my worship unperformative.
Like so many others who have commented below, and that we have encountered in Lutheran circles since leaving the NAR/charismania over a year ago, these are our reasons as well. We waited 20+ years for anything they boast about to come to fruition, and it was a total bust. So here we are, confessional Lutherans, thanks be to God. Happy reformation day!
Great video. All 5 were great, but I was drawn to #4 in particular.
Thank you for your well thought out, clear videos. I came to the faith through a Charismatic church and over the past several years came to many of the same conclusions. A couple of things that I question are 1) The spate of extra Biblical experiences from many Charismastic preachers. Have they truly gone to Heaven and Hell? Are they truly being visited by manifestations of Jesus and angels, or is is Satan disguising himself as a minister of light? 2) People being slain in the spirit and losing control of themselves. Fits of laughter and convulsions. Is there any solid Biblical proof that this is possible, or is this just a demonic Kundalini spirit?
I've no direct experience of the Charismatic movement but observing it from the outside I'm sure it isn't authentic Christianity. All this weird behaviour like being slain in the spirit is definitely demonic. It's not the Holy Spirit that these people are being overcome by but rather demon spirits as in kundalini.
I stumbled onto this channel after watching a lot of videos from fighting 4 the faiths channel and everything you just said in this video describes how I’ve been feeling about the charismatic movement over the last several months. I grew up in the Assemblies of God church as well as the Pentecostal Church of God but I’ve recently started feeling that there was something very wrong going on but I couldn’t quite put my finger on it until about a month or so ago. I would like to start exploring other denominations (if I could get my wife on board) but I honestly don’t know where to begin. iIt’s more than a little bit overwhelming trying to figure out just where I fit.
I love your videos! They are so informative. Can you do one on why you're not Pentecostal/Apostolic?
whats the difference?
This is the same thing
Because modern pentecostal aren't apostolic
Charismatics unfortunately usually believe in salvation by grace plus works and that you can lose your salvation.
Once saved always saved is a false doctrine and was never believed by the Church for the first 1500 years (even Luther rejected it)
@@mcfadden139 OSAS is a perversion of the Biblical doctrine of the perseverance of saints that obviously can be traced at the very least back to Augustine in the church. Apostasy is real and you don't earn your name in the book of life by reciting some half-baked creed once, but truly none of Christ's sheep will perish, as none may snatch them out of His hand.
I do like the style of worship, how I'm free to raise my hands, kneel before God, or dance with joy. And how they don't shy away from the idea of spiritual gifts. In practice however....some of the "spiritual gifts" can get out of hand. (if they're even legit to begin with)
As is often the case with critiques of charismaticism (with the exception of #1), these are criticisms of bad charismatic practices, not with the truth of the continuation of the gifts as taught in scripture. I think it is much more important to engage with the exegetical arguments, which strongly support the continuation of the gifts and even urge us to pursue prophecy (1 Cor 14:1) rather than attack bad charismatic practice. Bad practices definitely need to be called out, but they do not warrant dismissing the entire movement and the exegesis and theology behind it.
I went to an Assemblies of God church for most of my teenage years. I really think they have a difficult time not pressuring people to have certain experiences during worship. I had good worship experiences, but also bad. Overall, a lot of the time it was very exhausting or overwhelming (music very loud, lights, fog machine, lots of people around you very emotional). I don't want to be too quick to criticize because there are genuine believers in those churches, and I definitely believe that miracles can still occur. However, I can definitely relate to the anxiety that Pentecostal churches create.
This guy is amazing
My biggest concern with them is that the miraculous is to demonstrate Christ’s power to save us from hell, not to lengthen legs or even make the blind see. If the latter were true then He has failed big time. Redemption is about our salvation from hell, not from suffering on earth. These are incompatible ends, too; we can’t give it the ol’ “both/and” sophistry treatment because then God arbitrarily heals some and lets the rest of us languish. On the contrary, God paid fully for the sins of the whole world to redeem all of us without exception. If God wants us to have any confidence in what the work of Christ is in our lives, and in what the Bible is given to us to teach, then God would close the canon as He did. Finally, on that note, a “word from God” is a “word of God” and it’s philosophically inept linguistic torture to attempt to make a difference in the distinction between the two terms.
I spent my teens and early twenties as a member of the Assemblies of God. I graduated from Pentecostal Theological seminary in 2006, but I no longer consider myself Pentecostal or Charismatic. I do believe the gifts of the spirit are active as they were in the early Church, but the Pentecostal movement has gone the way of the Corinthians in the time of Paul, over emphasizing and abusing the gifts. I often mistook my own emotions as the movement or lack of movement of the Holy Spirit. When my dad died of cancer in 2005, I was left with more questions than answers. It did serious damage to my faith.
I found your Channel from your 5 reasons I'm not Anglican, which I just listened to. I am currently Anglican and have been since 2010. I can't think of 5 reasons I'm not Lutheran, at least not yet. 😂
I think the biggest influence Pentecostal and Charismatic churches have and continue to have is how they have influenced church music.
The growth of charismatics in anglican churches is why I left
12:41. “Parlor tricks”. Ha! I was thinking of Benny hinn!
I know this is a video on the charismatic movement but are there any fellow raised Southern Baptists that found a lot of these points relevant to your upbringing?
I appreciate your five reasons and my thinking is definitely along the same lines, but I'd like you to consider one of my reasons if you have not done so elsewhere. So, my four reasons would be: 1) All the bad fruit (i.e. scandal, heresy, error), 2) The way the charismatic movement's theology decimates the assumptions that undergird the authority and inerrancy of Scripture, 3) The way the charismatic movement's theology directs its adherents away from sin and justification to anything and everything but that, and 4) The fact that the charismatic movement makes a historical claim that cannot be biblically justified. And its this later one on which I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. The original claim of both the Charismatic and Pentecostal movements is not primarily theological, but a historical. Namely, that the "spiritual gifts" had suddenly been re-manifest within the church during the 20th century after disappearing for more than 1,000 years (i.e. since the early church). Not only do I not see biblical evidence that we should expect this, but passages like "the gates of hell shall not prevail against my church" I think would lead us to believe that the fullness of what Christ has given the church has never disappeared and then reappeared some time later in history.
one of my teachers who is charismatic is getting his masters from SEU and is reading a book detailing some evidence that the charismatic movement is indeed ancient, but that the Catholic church persecuted it throughout history.
Do make a video about famous modern charismatic and word of faith preachers, please. Their influence is spreading here in Africa.
Thanks for the clearly laid out video. A possible objection to your claim at 9:25 in the video is a verse that a lot of charismatics use, Isaiah 30v21 which states
And your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, “This is the way, walk in it,” when you turn to the right or when you turn to the left.
They would suggest that this verse teaches that the Holy Spirit will guide us in our life decisions.
As Dr Cooper notes, we do affirm that the Spirit guides us, particularly with regard to spiritual things (the following verse refers to destroying idols and seeing their vanity). Yet it would be wrong to suppose therefore that you should receive revelation to affirm or reject each turn you take in life, and it would be utterly irreverent to misread that verse as though God is revealing to you what route you should take on your morning jog. Even if we do not "feel the Spirit" at a given moment, as the neo-Evangelicals phrase it, we can be sure that God will lead us where He would, and that He will never abandon us even when we err.
With respect to Reason No. 4, it seems to me that one's choice of spouse is a pretty big decision and that praying to God for guidance and waiting for an answer would be good things to do. The same with accepting or declining a job offer. But I agree that waiting on the Lord to tell you whether or not to take a parking space is a bit much.
God doesn't choose your spouse in your place m.th-cam.com/video/ZGvJ0m5POlE/w-d-xo.html
My lunch break is almost over so I can’t say a whole lot, but my general defense is that while these are all totally valid points, and I also take issue with these things as a charismatic, they are all contesting culture and not doctrine. What keeps me in this theological system is that it seems to be the most accurate imitation of the life that the first generation church lived, one of prayer, community, strong desire to see the physical works of God, and want to make His kingdom present on earth in a noticeable way. Culturally I fit in more reformed people or lutherans, but doctrinally I find a straightforward interpretation of scripture almost always affirms what charismatics believe (at least in theory).
I’ll make another point against it that isn’t obvious to people who have never experienced the culture long term: transience is a HUGE problem with charismatic churches. People are chasing the literal high of emotional worship and living so heavily in a spiritual life that they never learn the foundations of the faith. When they’re corrected they just go to another church or group that doesn’t know them and is happy to have a new person that is so passionate, not realizing how much damage they may do to the whole.
Opposite for me... not even one single example of an Acts 2 type of tongues today... 99.999% failure to prophecy... heresies...
I’m a charismatic Christian and I love watching your videos. You make some good points on potential dangers of that can sometimes happen in the charismatic movement. Although I know you didn’t do it intentionally I do feel there are a few straw man arguments in your critique. Nevertheless I’m sure you can agree with me that Charismatic’s can’t all be put into one box. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water.
There is a lot of emphasis on emotion, and for people who don't experience strong emotions in that way it can lead to your wondering whether or not you are really saved and such like.
I have been a charasmatic all my life until now, this month I joined a Dutch Reformed church (URCNA)
Can u do five reasons why you are not Arminian ?
Would you be able to do a video on the word of faith movement?
I hope that you'd do a video about charismatic preachers like David Wilkerson. He has influenced my family member who is evangelical. I joined first the Lutheran church and then went back to the Orthodox church after having my childhood influenced by American charismatic preachers that seem to put a lot of emphasis on preaching style and prophecies.
I have been a charismatic for years and it's really gone faulty. Their prophecies over ride the Bible and there is no order only disorder and it's almost like anything goes. They think they are equal to God. It's all about your feelings and putting on a big show to feel the Holy Spirit
You make some good critiques which need to be made. But I think your conclusion that those examples essentially invalidate the movement in its entirety doesn't really hold water.
My two biggest pushbacks would be that the same arguments could be made by atheists about Christianity as a whole ("Christianity isn't real because of all the wacko preachers out there"), and you could rightly say, "though there are several places those things happen, it doesn't represent my branch, and it doesn't invalidate the legitimate."
And secondly, the critiques you mention were all present in the first century, especially in Corinth. And St. Paul's response was not to debunk it, but to bring correction to it.
I would also argue you could use the same argument against preaching and teaching: i.e. concluding that since there is so much of it which gets the meaning of the text wrong, then it must be an invalid gift, which of course is a misconstrued conclusion.
Scripture shows us that God often spoke prophetically to prophets in less clear ways which would be harder to interpret (Num 12). While acknowledging that there are likely quite a few "prophets" who are speaking just willy nilly, I think a lot of times it will be a misunderstanding of what a dream or image actually means or what it's application is. Again if this happens quite frequently with the infallible written word, even with those who are mostly well intended good preachers and teachers, why should we not expect it to happen with contemporary prophecy!
Actually seeing the end of your video, I see that you're not a complete cessationist. But then you say scripture gives us no instruction that we should expect this, which again seems dubious. St. Paul says to seek the gift of prophecy, which if we're interpreting that word consistently in the New Testament would almost certainly apply not to preaching but to hearing something directly from the Holy Spirit.
I actually think the reason most people end up rejecting the charismatic gifts is not because they've diligently interpreted the word and reasoned it out, but because they've seen either bad examples of it, or assumed what they saw was bad because it's weird and sometimes requires that we look a bit silly (the 120 appearing drunk on the day of Pentecost).
Anyway, I'm a Catholic Charismatic, so I quite often take issue with some of your videos. But I still love what you're doing for your area of the vineyard!
If that is your only test of prophecy then what happens with Deuteronomy 31:1-3?
God does speak to people. God still does miracles. Is it the same way it was during the apostles? Nope... But it still happens Prophecy can definetly still happen, but it its wrong then it proves the person who said it is not of God. I have failed to see any scriptural argument that proves the miracles can not happen today. What really confuses me is that people will pick and chose miracles that they like, but not others. For example, people will believe in the miraculous regeneration of someones soul, but not that God can regenerate someones body... Weird idea to me that does not hold up with scripture.
The guy in the video never said that miracles can't or don't happen today. In fact, I believe he said the opposite.
The modern charismatic movement is often dangerous, but are the exercising of the Spirit's gifts always ill advised? Should we avoid them or neglect them? The subjective and internal evidence of grace is not the grounds by which we're saved, especially if its mostly emotionalism. We know that the person and work of Christ is the only grounds. But, and I think you would agree, God certainly creates and expects growth in the fruit of the Spirit in internal character AND he blesses us with his Spirit's gifts. No doubt, often wildfire burns outside of the fireplace in the charismatic movement. That is a sad reality and harmful to the reputation of our Lord Jesus. Moreover, in my 25+ years of personal interactions/experiences, most churches in the charismatic movement have either no vehicles or very ineffective vehicles for correcting abuses and false teaching. However, despite all that, the gifts can be exercised correctly within a scriptural parameters and under competent and discerning church leadership. In fact, that was one of the main reasons why I converted to ACNA rather than a confessional Lutheran church. I appreciated the bishops' careful embrace and facilitation of the gifts under sound teaching practiced "decently and in order" in the context of the sacramental and liturgical life of the Church. There is certainly room for growth and no group is perfect, but as a communion, the ACNA doesn't throw out the baby with the bathwater by being dismissive, an overabundance of caution, or just bad exegesis. That being said, as an Anglican, I still really enjoy your videos and have great respect for confessional Lutherans since we're at least in agreement on 98-99% of the faith. Keep up the good work!
Where are the gifts still being used today ?? I'll take any examples of Acts 2 type of tongues
Came here from Tim and Eric and I can't hear what he's saying over my brain going "Hi I'm Dr. Jimes Tooper"
I’m a classical Pentecostal and I agree with you. There is much that is concerning in the Charismatic Movement. I’ve never liked it and unfortunately the majority of classical Pentecostal churches are adopting the heresies and such of the Charismatic Movement.
It's sad that over the years there's no thin line between charismania and pentecostalism
Okay, here's something I think people maybe aren't seeing within their own texts when it comes to this being lead around by their emotions and trafficking in spiritual things.
I'm not Christian, I'm not claiming to be, I'm simply pointing something out here: if your faith is based on emotion and spiritual religious experiences, that is a spiritual weakness that would allow in demonic spirits, wouldn't it? Isn't it prohibited to seek after these things precisely because it creates an opening whereby a person gives themselves over to a demonic spirit?
I think you were very easy on them. It’s a veritable snake pit.
this video is everything your deconstruction video should've been
Spot on!
Matthew 16:1-2, 4
Then the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and testing Him asked that He would show them a sign from heaven. He answered and said to them... A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.” And He left them and departed. NKJV
If God chooses to do a miracle in our lives then good. But we should not be hunting for them. There is way too much bs in the world of religion, and way too many times things have been proven false.
Jesus warned that there would arise many false Christs and false prophets showing great signs and wonders.
Matthew 24:23-26
Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great SIGNS and WONDERS to DECEIVE, if possible, EVEN THE ELECT. See, I have told you beforehand. “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. NKJV
Matthew 7:13-23
Enter by the NARROW gate; for WIDE is the gate and BROAD is the way that leads to DESTRUCTION, and there are MANY who go in by it. Because NARROW is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are FEW who find it.
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their FRUITS. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears GOOD FRUIT, but a bad tree bears BAD FRUIT. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their FRUITS you will KNOW them.
“NOT EVERYONE WHO SAYS TO ME, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not PROPHESIED in Your name, CAST OUT DEMONS in Your name, and done many WONDERS in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ NKJV
The Greek word translated as wonders is DUNAMIS which means miraculous power, miracles, marvelous works.
trust in Christ alone, and obey the gospel.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all POWER, SIGNS, AND LYING WONDERS, and with all UNRIGHTEOUSNESS DECEPTION among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason GOD WILL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe the LIE, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. NKJV
@@Jonathan-si2nd i think you might have misunderstand my comment. If God chooses to do a miracle in our lives then thats good. However we should not be chasing after these things. First off scripture is closed, so there can be no more new inspired revelations or prophecies to add to scripture. Second preaching the gospel and calling people to repentance and faith in Christ, or warning against sin, and preaching the testimony of Christ is a form of Prophesying, as we preach the prophetic scriptures.
Revelation 19:10 ...For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of Prophecy.
Third scripture warns about false prophets
Deuteronomy 18:20-22
But the prophet who PRESUMES to speak a word in My name, which I have NOT commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’- when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the THING DOES NOT HAPPEN OR COME TO PASS, THAT IS THE THING WHICH THE LORD HAS NOT SPOKEN; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. NKJV
1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. NKJV
One who claims to be a prophet must be 100% accurate all the time. And those who aren't are false prophets. Since there seem to be millions of prophets in the charismatic movement, who has time to try to figure our whos real or not. None of us can live long enough. Since God is not the author of confusion, the scriptures are all the prophecy we need. And if someone claims to be a prophet, then test them by scripture, and see if their prophecy comes true. And if their seeking their own glory, or preaching another god, then there's no need to trust them.
Deuteronomy 13:1-5
"If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’-which you have not known-‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.
@@Jonathan-si2nd i might add
1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. NKJV
You quoted 1 Thessalonians 5:19-20, but you left out verse 21 which says,
"Test all things; hold fast what is good." NKJV
Don't blindly believe everything you hear. I would also read 1 Corinthians 14 in full context. Paul gives specific instructions on spiritual gifts, which most don't even follow.
The problems in the Charismatic Movement mentioned here have been echoed by John MacArthur. Nevertheless, I don’t believe the Bible supports cessationism. We are commended by John the Apostle to test the spirits 1 John 4: 1. “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. “. We should test EVERYTHING against the canon of Scripture (what has God said already).
Implying that the only options are the charismatic movement or cessationism is a bit of an either/or fallacy. Plenty of us don't identify with the charismatic movement and still aren't cessationist by any means.
If people were put to death for false prophecies (like God commands) then there would be FAR less "prophesying" going on.
And those who (in theory) actually put their lives on the line would make way mire certain they were hearing from God and not demons...
As a Charismatic I think the best context you can anchor that theology is in historic tradition (Reformed, Anglican, or Lutheran). The movement itself has all the problems of evangelicalism and montanism all mixed together. It's a mess. The worship music is amazing, imo, but the theology is problematic.
I think for fallible prophecy 1 Thessalonians 5:20 seems to imply this, also Agabus is said to have given true prophecy in the book of Acts and then gives one that doesn't completely go the same as he said.
Thank you!
Two books every Lutheran should buy “the Corinthian catastrophe” and “the charismatic confusion”
You are Absolutely Right. WOW
The charismatic movement is an aberrant form of Christisnity. While it contains many genuine Christians it has been the launching pad for far too many moden heresies.
As someone who was a Oneness Pentecostal for over a decade, you're correct.
Bc you spent all your points on strength and dexterity
Brilliant.
Fallible Prophecy:
Jeremiah even tests Micah's prophecy by that which has already been revealed (I.E for us that's scripture).
Prophecy is fallible as it has to be tested by that which is infallible. Also, there is a difference between Old and New Testament prophecy, it doesn't carry the same authority as it did in the Old Testament. There are a whole bunch of people who were said to be prophets in the New Testament and even some who prophesied to Paul in which he totally ignored it because it didn't sit with him well.
Heresey:
I wouldn't say there is a lot of this, but this is mainly in the prosperity Gospel. Dr Michael Brown is definitely doing some great works here in challenges the wrong ideas.
Emotionalism:
Christianity is one of the Head (mind) and Heart (experience) - Pentecostals are the only ones who say baptism of the spirit with the sign of tongues. 3rd Wavers don't believe that at all. Scripture is to be experienced as well as known, otherwise, it's just dry religion and not a living one in communion with God. I'm a charismatic that doesn't have these big emotional experiences except when I'm praying on my knees before a cross, but I have sometimes had big experiences like that.
4th Point:
Absolutely agree with this, and this is something I am constantly challenging. However, in the scriptures people still sought after God to discern what He wants them to do... for example, whether a mission trip is right to do.
Fraudulent:
This upsets me that this happens. But what I would say is that we can't throw out what is genuine by judging it at its worst. If my neighbours had a terrible, abusive marriage, I wouldn't leave my marriage even if mine was great just because of the knowledge that there is bad marriage.
And please know I say this loving Lutheran Theology (if there was a Lutheran church in the channel islands I probably wouldn't be going for Anglican ordination). But growing up Charismatic, I do love the Charismatic Church, it's a shame that the frauds are the most popular, but they are actually the smaller section of the charismatic church.
And just a pushback... we're told to eagerly desire prophecy, and not to reject it but to test it.
I agree with you.
All of the reasons are kinda anecdote.
I'm interested in your claim that "There is a difference between Old Testament and New Testament prophecy." Could you explain what the difference is, where this is explained in scripture, and why it makes sense for God to make such a change over time?
@@josephbirch3635 one was authoritative, the other wasn’t, pretty simple actually.
Thessalonians are encouraged to prophecy, as are the Corinthians, as are the other prophets mentioned in the NT, yet their prophecies do not form scripture.
Clear examples in acts of people prophesying and Paul going against it.
@@josephbirch3635 and also, I believe Hebrews 1 spells out why prophecy has changed. He has spoken through his son.
Which music do you use in the begging?
@Mary Smith thank's I'll search for :D
@@izamota4761 It is in Lutheran Hymnals.
I would have liked more biblical argumentation for this I’m trying to defend against a few more moderate pentacostals.
As a member of a Pentecostal organization, I do not doubt my personal "mystical" experience, but the amount of hand wringing around the searching for God's will and "feeling" a certain way is certainly there. Fortunately, there are several ministers who will admonish people that His Word is the ultimate guide, and we need not worry or be anxious.
Nevertheless, seeking signs from God, as opposed to trusting God and His Word (like you say, using what is already revealed to us) is a major temptation for the Pentecostal movement, and it's honestly shameful.
It depends on which Pentecostal denominational body you follow. The classical ones , are the correct ones.
1. The abuse does not negate the use. The Corinthians abused the gifts and Paul corrected them while encouraging their pursuit of the gifts.
2. We ARE called to seek supernatural gifts from God (especially prophecy) unless you just took white out and removed 1 Corinthians 12-14.
3. Check out some writings by Dr. Craig Keener.
4. Generally speaking I really enjoy your work. Just think you are speaking from bad experience here not Scripture.
The true question should be neither what you are or aren't but rather what does the Bible say you should be. The Spirit-filled life God offers is part of the true gospel. According to Paul in Galatians 1: 6-9 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who
called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Galatians 3:5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
The thing all preachers, teachers, ministers of every kind need to be concerned is, are they preaching the true gospel? According to Paul in Galatians 1: 6-9 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
According to Jesus the gospel has a name. Mt. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole
world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
In Acts 2:14-21 Peter begins his gospel message with the prophet Joel talking about the Holy Spirit being poured out on all people. Then he switches to a message about Jesus Acts 2:22-33. Then back to the Holy Spirit Acts 2:33. Then back to Jesus Acts 2:34-36, and then what those who heard him (Peter) needed to do Act 2:37-39. Three things were required after they believed the message about Jesus; 1. repent, 2. be baptised, every one of you, in
the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and 3. receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Remember Peter said this was for everybody, Acts 2:39. This is the original gospel of the kingdom message.
The message (good news) isn't just about Jesus, it's about the Holy Spirit too. Why? Because 1. The kingdom of God is in the Holy Spirit, Rom. 14:17. 2. The kingdom of God belonged to Israel until Jesus took it away from them and gave it to the church, Mat. 21:43. 3. The power the church needs to do kingdom work is in the Holy Spirit, Acts 1:8. 4. The church was supposed to continue the work Jesus did after he left, John 14:11-12. 5. The apostles, prophets, and other believers, did just that throughout the book of Acts. 6. The gifts of the Holy Spirit; Heb. 2:3-4 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This
salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
What gospel are they preaching in your church? If they only preach about Jesus that's not enough, that's not the gospel of the kingdom. There's a false doctrine being taught called "cessationism" which states that the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit ended. There are no more miracles, or signs and wonders, no Spiritual gifts. Some say the gospel is just about Jesus today, not the kingdom.
What does Jesus say? It's the gospel of the kingdom from beginning to end. Anyone who says otherwise is a liar preaching a different gospel. It's nothing but a great deception from the devil who's trying to stop the advancement of the kingdom of God.
Mt. 12:30-32 “He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Who's side are you on? Who are you going to believe? You don't have to get involved with anything that's not of God. Trust the word of God and the Holy Spirit. They never contradict each other. You can live a Spirit-filled life and avoid the deception, error and foolishness in our world today.
Here’s a thought, how about doing a video of the things that you appreciate in other traditions. If all I ever hear is what’s wrong with this or that tradition it causes me grief. Of course, we want the lies and errors exposed but where is the edification, exhortation, acknowledgement of the good 🤔?
Jared he does it in a thoughtful and biblical way. There's nothing wrong with his approach
Could only listen to the first point to help me decide the rest. New Testament prophecy is correctable and that is not a sin, but it is God's training session for His own trying out to serve Him in Faith, as they struggle to walk in their baby steps from crawling.
"Let two or three prophets speak and let others weigh" 1 Cor 14:29
Fair
Do you have any Lutheran clergy friends who identify as being a practicing charismatic or a continuationist? And if so, to what extent?
Should change the title to charismatic Christian. Ended up here looking for something different.
Am a trad cath & am NOT charismatic.
I know I'm not a cessationist. I have had dreams/visions/very specific confirmations and answers to prayer come to pass but I agree there is a lot of fraud and false things going on in the charismatic movement. To me it's just a segment of a deep relationship with God. It's something he puts on you and it cannot be forced or generated.
i dont know if, you cant expect anything supernatural from God how do we ever get saved???
From a Lutheran perspective, the process of salvation itself is a supernatural act. It’s not that we don’t believe in any supernatural forces working here on Earth, it’s that we believe that there are certain signs and gifts that were present in the Apostolic Age but are no longer active.