Five Problems with the Trad Movement
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 มิ.ย. 2024
- In this video, I discuss the growing #Trad movement, and what I see as some dangers in this way of thinking.
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Well stated. As a single Christian and deacon in his mid-30s, the Godly desire for a wife (and the angst generated from not finding one) can together devolve into ingratitude and bitterness, leaving one vulnerable to the temptations of the erroneous manifestations of Trad, Patriarchy, and MGTOW.
Sorry to hear of your frustrations, but you certainly aren't alone in them. I know plenty of men and women in that situation.
A lot of Trads: "I'm an unmarried, 20-something year old with a sense of style who can't get off the Social Medias. Let me tell you how your life ought to be."
Me: "Have you even made your bed today, kid?"
Ron Swanson Me in a stable marriage with four kids: "I know more than you."
Exactly this.
You: “if I say something unrelated to the argument and make it snappy, that’s practically like being right!”
@@paulcosby8662 Everything will be okay.
That's completely accurate haha 💯 🔥🔥🔥
What a hypocritical comment in light of the critiques of the video.. especially when the response of the maker is “exactly this.”
A greater confirmation that this video is a caricature.
Dead on! Look at Little House on the Prairie.
In traditional society, women worked together on their stuff. They didn't toil in isolation without help and support.
Traditional life requires a traditional community.
And the man's job was not just to bring home money. Even more important is to bring the kids into a "tribe and a trade" - an identity and a skill - to teach them how to fit and be useful within their community, to build relationships of mutual support among men, and to preserve and pass along the culture and heritage of the tribe.
"In a traditional society, there's no such thing as an isolated mother living at home with a ton of kids having to take care of all those kids by herself". That argument is enough right there.
Had a nightmare where Jordan Cooper uploaded a video entitled "5 reasons why you should run"
💀
2:05 Idealizing the Past
4:06 Isolation of the Mother
8:18 A lack of Respect and Decorum
12:31 The Devaluing of Singleness
15:43 The Way Male Authority is Explained
Great analysis. As a Catholic I certainly see many of these issues with some people I know. Keep up the good work.
Come to Christ.
@@Seth_HezekiahSsssshhhhh.... Catholics are the original Christians and we have a spiritual trad family.
@@greypupofficial lol 2 years later, it's funny coming back to this. Now that I know more, I can say that yea, the catholic faith is the true faith. It's just too bad the Roman church apostatized the gospel at Trent. But the catholic church survives today in the reformed and evangelical (Lutheran) traditions.
@@Seth_HezekiahWith a different Bible, and different traditions, completely devoid of apostolic succession.
Excellent points. Social media has taken away our ability to stop and think. The first instinct is to spew any thoughts you have. Excellent video. Thank you for sharing
I agree; however, the Anglo-Catholic movement(s) is/are far too diverse to claim that we all romanticize the Medieval era.
Great video Dr. Cooper. Any chance you could give us some tips on the the proper use of gentlemen's wear? I'm very concerned about having the proper attire in my wardrobe for any occasion I might find myself in.
That would be a lot of fun.
Hey GoldenPants... Google "Ask Andy About Clothes" and check out the forums there. You'll probably find what you're looking for....
I recommend the Gentleman's Gazette. It's also on youtube.
@@vituzui9070 I love The Gentleman's Gazette.
Completely agree Dr. Cooper. People lack common sense. Having authority over your wife does not give you the right to physically abuse her or never help her. Get off your butt. Be a gentleman. That’s how to be actually traditional.
This is a great video, love it. I have a soft spot for the trads with their intention but they have no guidance or 'father figure'. Stuff like this would be huge for them imo.
Good stuff Dr. Cooper! Would love to see you dig deeper into this in the future. God bless you brother!
I'm often nostalgic, but I get your point about it. I think your 3rd point is spot on and arguably is a main source for a lot of our current societal ills.
"trad movement"
Isn't that really an oxymoron?
Traditionalism isn't a movement. Everything else is.
The Church is supposed to lead us away from movements.
Clearly, it has failed. Otherwise, we wouldn't be calling traditionalism a 'movement'.
The church is supposed to “lead” us? Seems like movement.
Dr. Cooper, I would be interested to hear your views on some of the Red Pill attitudes towards women and relationships. Definitely not Christian, but young men are facing a pretty challenging culture.
Important if you read this: the “trad” movement is often conflated with the red pill movement. They’re basically the same things he just described in case you didn’t know. Biblical marriage is biblical not “red-pilled” or “traditional”
Great video by the way!
Its sad that they are not doing this in charity to God, they're doing this to spite the Left, its a terrible reason to have a family or be trad.
You should do a criticism video like this one on feminism as well. Both movements I think are well-intentioned (except for the fringe) but I think they both go wrong in opposite directions. It would be cool to see a top-five video like this one on that topic.
I would say in general feminism has been very destructive to the family and many Christian values unlike some of the misgivings of "rad trads'. Feminism has always been about breaking down the family structure and normalizing casual sex. You could say first wave feminism was ok, but modern feminism has gotten out of hand, but I would retort that the state of feminism today is the logical progression of feminism. Therefore saing you like some parts and not embracing all of it just isn't realistic since the logical end of feminism the radical version you see today.
There is nothing biblical about equality of men and women and roles within society and the church. So I would say from the very beginning it all wrong and was not well intentioned from a Biblical perspective.
@@Justin-yn5py Although I don't describe myself as a feminist, I think your statement is somewhat a bit reductionist with all due respect. Even before feminism became mainstream, I would argue that casual sex was still prevalent although nowhere near as open as it is today. Also, I would like to point out that in extremely patriarchal cultures like Islamic culture, sexual immorality and multiple sex partners is quite common. I would argue that throughout the first three waves of feminism (we're currently in 3rd wave), that there has been somewhat good within each movement. For example, I believe women having the right to vote and participate in democracy is a good thing! I would also argue that women having the right to work and obtain a education is good as well and would point out women in the Bible who had business like Lydia. Also, even 3rd wave which has more problems than the others can be good as well of how certain identities can intersect with one another, see Jesus and the Samaritan woman in John 4.
Like I stated, I don't describe myself as a feminist nor do I believe one has to for women to be respected, but I can chew the meat while spitting out the bones like any other ideology
@@Kylerusse64 Just another front for communism.
@@MrR40388 Feminism and Communism are not related to one another! Also, take a look at Communist countries (or better known as Marxist-Leninist states), from past and present like the Soviet Union, Cuba, China, Vietnam, Laos etc. and you'll see quite clearly that feminism is nowhere present within those respective countries.
@@Kylerusse64
Vladimir Lenin, who led the Bolsheviks to power in the October Revolution, recognized the importance of women's equality in the Soviet Union (USSR) they established. "To effect [woman's] emancipation and make her the equal of man," he wrote in 1919, two years after the Revolution, following the Marxist theories that underlaid Soviet communism, "it is necessary to be socialized and for women to participate in common productive labor. Then woman will be the equal of man."[15]
In practice, Russian women saw massive gains in their rights under Communism. Women's suffrage was granted. Abortion was legalized in 1920, making the Soviet Union the first country to do so; however, it was banned again between 1936 and 1955. In 1922, marital rape was made illegal in the Soviet Union.[16] Generous maternity leave was legally required, and a national network of child-care centers was established. The country's first constitution recognized the equal rights of women.[17]
Such a great video. Thank you
Great job
Excellent analysis, Dr. Cooper. Another observation I would offer is this: a hallmark of the “trad” movement in the realm of faith and morals is to exalt one or a few acceptable expressions of faith/manifestations of praxis to the level of Divinely revealed Truth and label all other acceptable expressions/praxes as heretical. I especially see this in certain “trad” circles within Catholicism. Perhaps you could also relate to my experience having dealt with elements of the “radical trads” within Lutheranism. I believe wholeheartedly that this phenomenon is one of the main causes of historical and persisting division within and between our denominations. Instead of allowing the plain textual meaning of our confessional statements to define dialogue, critical engagement, and boundaries of acceptable ways of living out the Christian faith, attention and other precious resources are often redirected in responding to the sophistry and empty polemics so often deployed by members of the “trad” movement, who seem more intent on fostering divisiveness than recognizing communion as the presumptive value and advancing unity to the greatest extent possible (as fundamentally defined by Sacred Scripture and the spoken words of Christ and His apostles).
I affirm this. Often the greatest opponents of (genuine, not liberal wishy-washy) ecumenism between our two Churches are the Trads who insist that there's nothing to be gained from dialogue -- a VERY arrogant mindset and rather childish imo.
This one ought to go viral
I recently quit a trad chat room because someone was going on about Luther being in hell. This was educational.
well yeah heretics go to hell
How may I join this based chat group?
Very well put, thank you Dr Cooper. I am a feminist, but I love listening to opposition and their opinions and I must agree on large number of points you made. Lots of so called feminists will fall into the same trap as the people you describe in the tradwife movement, which is the complete rejection and disregard of any and all traditional values and ways of life. In fact, they will often blame traditionalists and patriarchy for their own situation, completely disregarding their own responsibilities which may have contributed the creation of the said situation. The whole point of feminist movement should be to start and add to the dialogue in the framework of free speech and not to a priori reject any opposite claims based on historical half-truths as evidence. I try, as much as I can, to call out these fundamentalist premises within the feminist movement and add some balance and understanding and I am so happy to see a fellow thinker doing the same on the opposite side of the spectrum. Keep doing the good work :)
I'm a Mexican catholic & I agree in all the problems, but specially in the last one, in the case of my nuclear family, my father never helped my mom with the house and never teach us nothing of the life, so we( me & my brother) were very confused. At the end my mom and dad broke up and she hopes that the church can annul her marriage to my father.
I am so glad You talk about how people treat each other, it is terrible. The last 10 years leaders in the workplace, have also gone crazy with insulting employes, people in the internet are full of insults. Everything is just "business-talk", like hour whole life is about making good deals and be "a good worker and a good buyer of things and services". When i grew up in the 70:s, this was NOT the way to treat people then. Homeschooling is not a good idea, i do agree.. How can the mothers that do homeschooling get their pension and so on. This is not a way to go. I also agree, men cannot be abusive and believe they are "good to go".
Whoa that's a bit of a shift for my worldview.
I'm young, I'm beginning to see the value in so many things. School is meaningful now. History has a purpose, science has a purpose, math has a purpose, logic and philosophy have a purpose, learning languages, art, music, traditions, reading, on an on and on--It all has purpose, we do it all for God, and all for the glory of God! How my life has been changed by this. Even work is meaningful, though boring at times, it's something I can rejoice in because I do it for God's glory, like a servant serving/working for a greatly respected and revered King--that's how I picture it. Tradition, though it's not law, or binding on us in a legalistic fashion, is not bad, but really valuable. I love all of the before mentioned stuff way more than I used to.
The Truly “Traditional” Christian Role For Men Towards Their Wives:
-Provide
-Protect
-Promote
promote is a new P for me. that's actually perfect for that aspect of it which I already believe in.
This video is gonna have the wildest comments
Can't be any crazier than the video I did on Kinism.
Thanks for taking that stand anyways Dr. Cooper!
Very interesting insights that made me think. I hope other viewers realize the misconceptions we might have about this topic.
Thank you for this. I very much agree. However, I want to voice one caveat: while there is such as a thing as idealizing the past, I very much do not think that is what is going on in nineteenth century Anglo-Catholicism, nor again today in the works of scholars like Charles Taylor, Alisdair MacIntyre, John Milbank, William Placher, Michael Allen Gillespie, and their popularizers (like James K.A. Smith and Rod Dreher). Rather, for them (and myself), the High Middle Ages represents a high point of civilization. That is not because of any romantic notions of chivalry, but because thirteenth century western Europe, especially as seen under Pope Innocent III at the Great Lateran Council, best manifested a civilization built on perennial theological truths like the analogia entis, metaphysical realism, legal thought based in virtue ethics, the liturgical ordering of God's cosmic kingship, the victory of Church over secular kingship, and the fourfold senses of Scripture and historical signification (Jones in particular has a great three-part lecture series on this on TH-cam, recorded at Franciscan University of Steubenville). And I think it is unfair to the best either Newman's or Dix's or Taylor's respective generations to reduce their visions to uncritical idealism.
One of my favorite vids that you made.
Agree on all five points. Nuff said!
Excellent video.
Great points made in this. People trying and wanting everyone to return back to how things was done at a certain time in history like the 1950's for example. Has to realize people then wasn't going back reliving things a certain way. They were living everyday life as things was done then at that particular time. But, how things changed big time in the 1960's and onward shows not everyone was happy with how things was done in the 1950's and earlier. For example not all women want to be stay at home housewives and Mothers. There are women who wants higher education, full time job outside the home, plus marriage and family. Both my Grandmother's were not fully happy being a housewife and Mother. My Grandmother on Dad's side wanted to be a Nurse, my Grandmother on Mom's side wanted to be an accountant she loved working with numbers. But, in the teen years there was not alot of jobs for women and they paid so little and women was expected to be married, at home, and having kids. One needs to hold on to the good things of tradition but, be open to some modern things as well.
Men needs to show respect to women more. When they are married when around other people refer to their wife by her name or as their wife not calling her "my old lady", or worse then all men gathered start laughing their sides sore. Men opened doors for women years back, surprised them with flowers, addressed them at times "my lady". And, Men took care of themselves years ago. No matter how hard the men worked and sweated they had themselves bathed or showered when being around their ladies or going out with them somewhere. One thing that use to turn women on years ago was a guy's appearance, his way of dressing, and how good his aftershave smelled. Today guys go out on dates with torn jeans, sweated up from playing basketball with his buddies, and the guy is long gone ahead after they get out of the vehicle and women are trying to catch up with them.
Thanks Pastor Cooper. So helpful as a reminder to overreact.
Not to overreact. Sorry ;)
Great video! Are you aware of the Prophetic Standards Statement? What are your thoughts on the fairly recent Trump prophecy trainwreck?
The Trump prophecy stuff certainly showed a lot of the issues in the modern Charismatic movement. I'm familiar with the Prophetic Standard Statement, but basically only through a quick read through. I'd have to look more into it to give any kind of insightful commentary.
This is absolutely amazing.
Great thoughts sir.
I have never heard of the the Trad Movement and had to look it up. Didn't know this was a thing. Thoroughly agree with your comments about being respectful and polite to people including in online communications.
For this reason I never use Twitter or follow anyone on it because of the lack of civility found there. To me it's the least useful social media platform.
The most disgraceful online exchange was started when someone at the Vatican decided it would be good to put beautiful quotes from Pope Benedict XVI on Twitter. Truly casting pearls before swine. The filth hurled at our Holy Father was completely uncalled for and would have NEVER been allowed on TV or radio back in the day. That's a FACT. Not nostalgia. Fact. There is such a thing as good censorship. Evil has no rights.
Great video, I been thinking about this stuff as of late and I'm glad you talked about it. Would love to see you perhaps do another video kinda like this one but about the inverse extreme of modern Feminism although I would understand if you wouldn't due to how much has already been said about it.
Thank you for this analysis. I’m curious to know what sort of media you enjoy, Dr. Cooper. Film, music, entertainment, etc.
I do very much enjoy those things which would be considered "high culture," like classical music, opera, literature, etc. I used to be really into art films (Malick, Tarkovsky, Bergman being my favorites), but I hardly ever have the time to watch them anymore.
But, I also like things that aren't quite so pretentious, like the the Star Wars movies (I-VI), and I play video games some. I also listen to punk and indie rock music.
With tv shows, the propaganda has gotten way too overwhelming, so I just don't watch any new shows with the exception of the Mandalorian and now the Bad Batch. I basically just repeatedly watch through Frasier.
Thanks for clearing some of this stuff up. I grew up seeing traditional families around me and this stuff is true. Men helped where they could, it was understood that you don't talk in certain ways to and around women, and women held a lot of power in the home. If I wanted something and my mother said no it was no. It worked differently in other families but the men weren't little tyrants. I never understood why my dad was so strict about me not looking bummy until I was older (39 as of this comment).
Helping others, especially women. 👍
There are some good points in this video on how these people that claim to be traditional are not. But the movement is a lot better than the very horrible MGTOW movement.
Depends. Some of it isn't. Some of it is.
MGTOW is just a reaction to the hypocrisy of modern women. Where they can have standards but men can't. Where they want you to be traditional but they aren't. Feminism has told women a lot of lies that and is the root of many of today's issues. And do you think telling men they are toxic is supposed to make them rush out and get married? And lets not even get into no fault divorce.
What is MGTOW?
These reasons would be a lot more convincing with a hurdy-gurdy playing in the background.
Fair critique.
Next time.
You have spoken well, sir.
@Dr. Jordan Cooper love your videos! Have you done anything in response to the Hebraic Roots movement? I have a couple of friends and they seem like cool guys and solid Christians, but I'm not qualified to speak to if it's a dangerous theology for them.
It's not an area that I have looked into all that much.
@@DrJordanBCooper they feel that keeping to Torah/Kosherite law wasn't abolished in the NT. The ones I know aren't cage-stagey or judgemental about it and see it as a way to honor God. I know Jews for Jesus doesn't endorse them, so I thought I'd ask someone whose theology I trust. 😉
Don't they deny The Divinity of Christ?
If they keep the Mosaic Law for salvation, they can't be saved. Jesus fulfilled the covenant and received all the blessings AND CURSES (on the cross) that were attached to it and is the Anointed King of that covenant, which is why it doesn't apply to us.
@@nick.s.c3102 Depends on which ones. Most deny the Trinity because they know nothing about Second Temple Jewish theology. Many then progress to deny the divinity of Christ. It's usually a short slope to damnation. .
Great thoughts
I'm with the tradwives. My wife and I have lived this way for 16 years now (13 with a son) and we're both very glad we did.
And we are happy for you. However, just because the "trad" lifestyle worked for you doesn't mean it is an optimal solution for everyone.
@@animalcart4128 Actually, "What's going to work for me?" is the wrong question to be asking entirely. Some people regret staying sober, but that wouldn't mean that alcoholism works. So the question is, what *should* we do in life?
We're glad we chose traditional marriage because that optimized our chances at not only staying together and being happy, but raising our son correctly. And while there can be exceptions to any rule (e.g., you could choose to exercise but somehow die as a result), there are better and worse ways of setting your life up - ways of making success from every angle more likely.
Well said. As a woman, I thank you, kind sir.
Never heard of this movement. There is nothing manly about putting others down to make up for inadequacies in one’s life.
Can you put your video on kinism on utube? Looked through your library? And I didnt see it. Just saw the term in your msgs.
I don't think Kinism is in the title. The title has something to do with racism.
This one may be the one referenced by Dr Cooper above 😊: th-cam.com/video/_2ixc7Kw3bE/w-d-xo.html
Listening to your fourth reason and wondering about your thoughts on Protestantism and monasticism. Should there be a movement within Protestantism to recover the monastic vocation? If so, what should that look like?
Being Eastern Orthodox, I know that the consecration of individuals to the monastic life plays a major role in maintaining respect for those who feel called to celebacy and/or singleness. Having said that, the expectations for such individuals is a life-long committment to the monastic vocation without the opportunity for marriage later in life (since this is comparable to divorce within the married life).
@@hollyrodriguez3259 These communities make up about 0.002% of the Anglican communion worldwide. I wouldn't say such vocations are thriving in Protestantism, especially when compared to the vocation of matrimony.
@@HectorLopez-qb2fj Well, the Reformation _did_ in fact happen, and with it certain critiques of monasticism (among other things)... and so, yes, one of the effects of those reforms was an understanding within Protestantism that marriage and monastic life are not equal: While marriage is a divinely instituted and indisolvable estate, singleness does not rise that that level. Certainly, there are those who are called by God to singleness, but often this may only be for a relatively short time. Monasticism (as such) is a humanly instituted way of life _for_ the single/widow, etc and thus any vow to that way of life cannot stand in the way of what God has planned for such a person in the future. The result is an transient approach to monastic vows.
So marriage is divinely instituted in the Scriptures, but singleness (i.e., celibacy, monasticism, hermeticism) is not?
@@vngelicath1580and yet Paul spends time very thoroughly telling people that if they can avoid it, they shouldn’t marry.
Monasticism should absolutely be recovered in Lutheranism. It’s probably the thing about which I disagree most with Luther.
Another example of getting out of one ditch only to land in the ditch on the other side
Those are very good points..... good critique of the "manosphere...."
My personal approach: secular traditions are arbitrary, but are ideal to keep if not toxic and still have value. Holy traditions that are fundamentally scripture derived should always be kept.
The tradcons are looking at the 1950s, Leave it to Beaver, Father Knows Best. In a romantic frame of mind only, I want to be on Breeds Hill in 1775.
If men should behave like old fashioned gentlemen, should women behave like old fashioned ladies?
On "The decline of the gentleman" See Aaron Renn. The Masculinist: th-cam.com/video/DICdrAa-iKQ/w-d-xo.html
Yes! This is perfect. And you love Jane Austen?! YES! God bless you from a Reformed brother!
I'm really suprised on how simular your views on stuff like this is to Paul Washer. Like WOW. I love it.
Bring back the duel! That is Traditional and would make people have more decorum and respect!
@Atticus Bomanslavery still exists
Btw, I just found a quote from Bede stating that we are saved by faith, full stop, separating justification from sanctification following it. Thought of you. ;)
Bede said nothing that the Catholic Church disagrees with. We are saved by faith.
Bede is really wonderful. What text were you looking at?
When my daughters were in elementary school, the Principal was wearing a polo which had a line drawing of (in an equilateral triangle shape) a school house, balanced on a church building and a home. The point was that the school is supported by religious education and the home. Knocking the supports out from education has resulted in many problems.
Please go live and add a chat. I would love to chat and read your opinions and others.
Being a man seems to me to be about self-sacrifice rather than exercise of power.
"Men should be the first in calling out other men..."
Amen, brother.
I see Dreher's new book behind you. Video on it soon?
The Benedict Option?
Possibly. I enjoyed the book.
I’m sorry, but I’m really having a hard time processing that five people have voted this down. Dr. Cooper’s points are common sense etiquette.
Number 5!! Thats a true gentleman right there. Men protect their wives!
Women don't need or want that anymore. They have Big Brother to take care of them.
Go ahead and speak further on this topic. I think it would be helpful as we try to navigate in this modern world.
I changed my fair share of diapers at least half I had my kids half the week and my wife had them the other half and we had one day all together. If one cooks and serves the other clears the plates and does the dishes. Take turns doing laundry and vacuuming and cleaning the bathroom. Men take the garbage out and mow the lawn and edge and hedge rack leaves shovel snow clean gutters. Women plant flowers and plant gardens.
So you are describing 5 things in the *Lutheran* trad movement? I wasn't aware they did, interesting. FYI Catholics have a trad movement. None of these 5 problems are going on there. Not sure why ScrewTube put this in the suggested videos, but it was interesting to hear you talk about the same values we Catholics have - decorum, politeness, the value of single life, men protect women and love their wives, that the 1950s men out at work/women at home alone with children is not traditional, etc.
I am a Catholic too and I agree with your comment. I realize after watching this video and agreeing with everything he says especially on how so called contemporary trad men treat women who think differently as them, its despicable. I read and watch a lot of 18th and 19th century romance stories as well and thats not how most men were raised, even they held back remarks and showed courtesy in their manners towards unwanting women. I have brought this up to trad men and got called a "Feminist" because I also disagreed that wives should not submit to husbands who demand things thats against Gods law. 😂 Even St. Thomas Aquinas said we Obey God in all things, we obey human authority in certain things.
Jane Austen is obviously not particularly reflective of interactions of ordinary English people. Reading the accounts of Whitfield and Wesley is more helpful for that.
I know. That is merely one example of one culture which may be defined as "traditional." This is certainly not to say that it is the only one.
I’ve watched many of these Catholic traditionalist videos, and I’ve left comments on them where I’ve identified as a Lutheran. Usually my intention has been to correct misrepresentations of Luther. They don’t like it…
Usually they demand I repent and convert
🤣 yes I’ve had the same!
Same here
Literally had to Google "TRAD Movement"... TLDR: Selfish people play tropes from the 50s. #ridiculous
So good and a good end to this rabbit hole of trad/homestead/homeschool/make patriarchy great again hole
I was sad when reading the title because I LOVE the trad movement. I see it as a reprieve from toxic feminism. However your points are valid, and any movement taken to an extreme will become toxic in of itself.
First comment! Can you do one on explained Reformed Objections to images of Christ and the Lutheran response. Thanks
I've done this on my podcast, but I can revisit the subject for TH-cam.
Yes, please do.
@@DrJordanBCooper Thanks Dr Cooper
Amen 💜☦️
🙏🏼 Amen 👏
Trad people say that they respect old world values and yet they tend to act very ungentlemanly being rather rude and uncoith to people (especially online).
As for looking at the past with rose tinted glasses, i think tge best example is trad Cagholics wjo seem to think that somehow holding the mass in latin makes it more holy, that somehow the language of latin makes the whole thing more pious simply because its being spoken.
Absolutdly spot on. Just as our heavenly husband (Christ) does not abuse his bride (the Church) so too a husband is not permited to abuse his wife under any circumstance.
I have argued that a father who works all day to provide for a SAHM and his many children (if they're really traditional, they'd have 5 kids average) with a decent home away from innercity crimes... in todays economy, he'd have to earn over 200k and away from home most of the time. This family dynamic is no different than a single mother of 4 kids receiving child support since the father is usually absent anyways, only sees them before they wake up and when they go to sleep. Trads are so adamant about Fathers role in his kids life goes out the window if children are mostly around their moms, including the sons and trad moms can not teach her sons how to be a man, thats her husbands job. Some women work while kids are in school to help their husbands with the financial burden so that he can be home at a regular time and spend with his children. Boys from Trad families can raise effeminate boys too even if the father is ultra masculine, if he is constantly raised by mother and surrounded by sisters... he will pick up some female characteristics.
This is a good critique of the things you critiqued, & good warnings, but imo, caricature-like. this is some of the fringes of the movement, particularly among few Christian’s and many nonChristians who are angered by feminism(rightful anger, wrong response), as well as a lack of boldness within Christendom about traditional roles revealed in scripture. It seems like the rest is false characterization.
It doesn’t seem to be the character of the entire movement within Christendom(no community, no respect, idealism, bossing your wife around, etc.) I mean come on brother.. with respect, is this what’s being advocated for or happening? Or is that an interpretation of what you think people mean?
And I’d also add, that more threatening to Christendom today is the effeminizing of the church, the devaluing of having kids/marriage, the devaluing of men & women roles and responsibilities to holiness, and the absolute shame of traditional roles/family found in the scriptures and the patriarchs. The fathers on immodesty for example. We can’t even preach against immodesty without receiving emails today.
This is pretty solid. Jaques Barzun's "From Dawn to Decadence" has the loss of manners as part of the decline of Western Civ. Without typing a book, he basically says that even sinning (such as the romantic liaisons during the reign of Louis XIV at Versailles) had an "art" and "propriety" about them and that the rise of the autonomous individual basically destroys manners.
That sounds very interesting. I will have to check it out.
@@DrJordanBCooper here is a quote from one of the sections:
(After a discourse on the ideal gentleman of 17th century France)
"Manners have been called "little morals," both showing the respect due from one human being to another. In truth, one finds that the degree of formality in social intercourse varies in step with other cultural characteristics; it ranges from the etiquette of Versailles (or ancient China) to the casual style of the 20th century; it matches the dogmas of the age in politics, psychology, and aesthetics." (Dawn to Decadence, pg. 351)
Ummm. He obviously hasn't read Casanova's memoirs. It is gut-clenchingly revolting and nothing in it has an ounce of decorum.
@@toomanymarys7355, considering he (Barzun) is talking about 17th century Versailles and not the 18th century era of revolutions/Enlightenment, I'm not sure what the point is you are trying to make?
Secondly, Casanova's memoirs weren't even published until the 19th century, and most were revolted by them (they were censored after all), which means the majority of society considered him problematic. One of the points of the book is that while there were seeds of Western decadence that go back centuries, the late 18th through the 19th century was a major "shift" that basically caused the west to enter a period of decadence in the 20th century.
Is the trade movement actually something incubated in churches or the internet? I'm super out of touch, but the tradition movement as described here smells ironically like an internet phenom.
Also ironically, it smells like something that would be enabled by effeminate rather than strong male pastors
This comment is valid
Yeah for sure. We have this problem in Orthodoxy and the trad catholic movements. Many people online with a pepe/wojak meme avatar usually dressed in clergy attire that spout a bunch of bs but you never find these people in actual churches. Go to a traditional latin mass catholic church, Eastern catholic church, orthodox church, traditional anglican or Lutheran church and there will usually be not one of these people there. There are some but I've seen many on the orthodox and catholic side talk about being in open defiance with their priest on the social media issue despite being told to stop. It's a real shame.
I think a lot of these young men come from very vulgar, materialistic, and nihilistic websites like 4chan, find christ as their anchor but unfortunately still carry around a lot of that very crappy culture.
Just because one gets in for the wrong reason however doesn't mean they can't stay for the right one. Let's pray for them.
I personally dont like the feminist movement and the trad wife movement. They've both become very radical. Feminists like to force that ideology that EVERY woman must work. While trad wives I've seen on social media insist that their way of life is best and the only way and that women MUST stay in the home. Some even say girls shouldn't even go to college. As a catholic, I dont agree with any of these ideologies. Couples should sit down and discuss these things and make these decisions. Many of these women are so bitter on social media and look down on single women and working moms. Sometimes I think they are just insecure and unhappy. Many Christian men brainwash and abuse their wives with that flimsy excuse that its 'Gods word'. Men need to also realise that taking care of their homes and children is also their responsibility. These women think homeschooling and staying home is going to make their children better than the children of working moms and children who attend public schools. Thye also look down on other women who live differently. I support any womans choice but these movements are just so toxic in my opinion. Lets also note that even if a woman stays home with her kids, children need their dads. Girls need their dads , boys need their dads. nice video btw.
AMEN! I am a Catholic too and everything you said hits the nail on the head! I stopped following them because like Dr. Cooper says, they devalue singleness. The tradwife think being pleasant to their husbands all the time makes them immune to abuse, albeit physical or emotional, which makes impressionable young single ladies think any man, as long as he has #trad on his profile, will be Christ-like and live happily ever after just like the influencers, are in for a rude awakening. Intimate Partner Violence is even prevalent in Christian communities, especially in cultures with the headship designation ordained to men by God, many weaponize it. Fr. Ripperger said that Men are the barriers between the diabolic and their family. So the Devil will try to tear down that Spiritual Protective Wall (husbands/fathers) to get to thr children. We see how government and media institutions did that to society. So the men who are weak in their faith will inevitably attack their wives and children in some form or another because the Devil, once he has a hold over the Protector, will weaponize him against the innocent. This has happened decades before and this is what drove the first wave of feminism and the society shift towards Atheism. Fathers are representative of God, but when that image is distorted, so will the childrens perception of God.
Most of the Tradinistas are fully aware and acknowledge the critiques that you are making. They are simply using a certain traditional lens as a way of criticizing modernity and revitalizing it.
Also the nuclear family is in sense very trad, modern research has establish that the nuclear family structure has existed as early as the 14-15 century in certain parts of Europe (mainly England.)
Also your critique of larpers online yelling at people, falls into the same nostalgic trap that you are claiming to critique. Playful irony and harsh polemics have a place.
My wife and I have been part of this movement for many years. I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said. However I disagree with how you’ve characterized the overall movement. I don’t know anyone in the movement who advocates the kind of things you’ve said characterize the trad movement.
If you haven't encountered this, I'm glad. But this is what I've seen quite often from those who use the trad hashtag to identify themselves (usually pretty young guys).
I suspect the difference is that I’m mostly around irl traditional people. Social media can is a toilet. I hope that it’s simply a vocal minority; not representative.
I see it a lot and I follow these people before it became a movement, their media contents has shifted, their followers are just as bad as the Feminist on the other spectrum. The tradwife chicks really devalue the single girls and blaming their singleness for not being feminine enough and one even has classes to teach them to be like her, and they mock single girls. SMH, I think she deleted my comment in response but I said If we are to be Christians and "Trad" then we can not dictate what God's will is for these women. Some women were called to be single but that doesn't mean they are sleeping around. The men are just as despicable calling the single girls fat and ugly, "good luck with your 20 cats" type of responses. I had to stop following them. Lack of decorum and not representative of Traditional Christians at all.
@@greypupofficial I think this is where you err. No one is called to be single. Singleness is not a gift. Chastity is a gift.
We know from scripture and nature that women are designed to be wives and mothers in their body, spirit, and soul. They aren’t designed to be childless investment bankers, soldiers, or tradesmen.
A lot of the rampant mental illness among women is due to this failure to distinguish between a vocation, which is both individual and an adiaphoron, and a calling, which is universal and inherent to God’s creation and holy word.
We lie to women. We encourage them to be like men. But they cannot be men. They cannot be anything but a poor imitation of men, and it makes them miserable. Over many years it makes them mentally ill.
This is not meant to be an excuse for those who deliver the message without grace or manners.
Caricatures of the loudest "trads" on twitter do not represent the larger "movement" of younger people rejecting the empty materialism/consumerism of their parents and grandparents. This was a critique of internet trolls, machismo, and people experimenting with extreme reactions to pop culture, not real traditionalism. I think it would be helpful to do some positive videos promoting healthy, Christian traditionalism, which you represented by mention of Chrysostom, Luther, et al. You should explicate your views on the traditionalism emanating from Wrath of Gnon and the like, representing a full embrace of the best of the past without becoming shrill or trollish toward people who don't "get it."
Back when couples didn't divorce at the drop of the hat & children got to grow up in normal families (I'm talking about the 70's not the 50's). Yeah it really sounds horrible, I mean men & women loving each other & their children, being each other's best friend in the entire world. And women were not isolated, stop lying to people. I grew up back then & it was truly Great.
I was a physical therapist for women for over a decade, it wasnt always love as you presume. By that decade, Atheism was becoming more prominent in culture and it bled into the supposedly traditional Christian men who were beginning to lose touch of what a Christ-like husband should be. Once that sheds, the wives and children are more exposed to diabolical attack because fathers are the first line of attack on the family. Many women who grew up in that era or were married during that time would tell me the horrifying stories of marriage and childhood.
@@greypupofficial When I was a child it had nothing to do with being Christ like or Christian. I'm Jewish & was born in Israel & all secular Israelis were like that. When we immigrated to the USA it was all people that were normal (aside from a tiny minority of kookoo Leftists. Today they rule the planet.
Planet KooKoo
This trad video was more in a general sense. I was thinking this would be on Roman Catholic trads (borderline sedavacantists for lack of a better term). With Francis being so liberal their is a need to try and reconcile the seemingly irreconcilable within Rome (thus personalities such as Dr. Taylor Marshall and Church Militant come into the fray).
@@hollyrodriguez3259 you can't have your cake and eat it too in an attempt to defend Francis. He himself has inserted himself into the political arena with various anti Trump statements while supporting Biden. Everyone knows Francis is liberal and it's naive to claim otherwise.
I am a trad Catholic, I attend TLM, listen to Dr. Taylor Marshall, and Francis does make me SMH, but I am nowhere near the trad movement he describes. I hate how they caricaturize veteran moms and wives like myself into a Christian Man's version of OnlyFans on social media. I see Christian men simping over other tradwives. The women putting themselves out there and they know the men drool over them, in the guise of helping and encouraging other women to be trad, isnt any better than just wearing a mini skirt. They don't do it secularly, but acknowledging you, as a wife, are allowing men to drool over you is not humble either. I see trad men doing this over the Estee Williams TikTok tradwife, even comments like... "Ohhh your husband is very lucky, you're a beautiful woman" Implies more than just flattery, its insidious message leans towards sexual desire.
The idea of putting a hashtag out to say you are traditional is an incredible absurdity. The issue I have seen with the tradbros is they are all terminally online, and they seem confused as to what really is traditional culture. In america, especially, it is a tradition that women have elevated themselves, first to positions of spiritual equality in the household in the great awakening and democratic revolution of the 1800s, and then to eventual legal equality through mass movements at the turn of the 20th century.
So for your pre-american traditions, what do you do, go back to the traditions of the old country? Europe and america are very different places; we just don't have to worry about anyone ever mounting an invasion, europe is never free of that worry (without us playing peacekeeper). It is very clear to me that america has a great deal of tradition and culture left to build, and a lot of the trouble we have gotten in recently has had to do with our elites lacking confidence and faith in american culture, and instead paying obeisance to european ways of living and thinking that do not translate well into governing in america.
And lots of the tradbros are catholic, which to me is this hilarious contradiction, given that the catholic church is essentially a centralized body dedicated to secularizing the west and maintaining global government. It seems to me that the largest hurdle americans need to pass is reformulating christianity in a way that loses a lot of the baggage added by the church over the years. As an american, I cannot understand how the traditions of a church in italy should dictate how I interpret scripture, it just fundamentally does not make sense to me if I have direct access to the scripture. I do not think that Jesus was talking about starting a centralized church that was somehow a representation of him on earth. It seems to me that any testimony of His work necessarily is flawed by being relayed by a flawed human, and even scripture is secondary to the basic gospel. It seems that more traditional is not necessarily more christian, it's just a sort of reactionary appeal instead of doing the hard work and building a culture that is successful.
What I mean to say is we need to ditch classical music. Children should listen to Marty Robbins, not Mozart.
A few counter arguments:
- Overall, I agree with your dangers of what to watch out for, and there are definitely things in the trad movement to criticize, however all of your arguments seem to apply to vocal and visible online people labeled as trad or just against a trad stereotype and not actual people who would be labeled as in the trad movement. Maybe your video is really just about online stuff, but then maybe your video should instead be titled Five Problems with the online Trad Movement (and the trad movement stereotype)?
There are many many more people who prefer and attend the traditional mass, who would then be labeled trad and part of the movement, that try to live a moral, spiritual, Catholic life that don't post anything online and seem not to apply to most of your arguments. This video seems to just be bad-mouthing people who prefer the traditional Mass backed up with examples of vocal people online. Look at the current top liked comment that you hearted and replied "Exactly this". Which trad parish or trad Mass is filled with mostly single 20 year olds telling others how to live their life? None that I've been to. If anything, it's filled with some single and many married with kids 20 and 30 year olds working out their salvation with fear and trembling, and trying to heal from the wounds they have received and have given. If this video is really just about online stuff, it should be re-title and made clearer as it is damaging good people and a good thing. And if its only about vocal online people, then the rest of my comments can be ignored.
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1. I'm not aware of anyone that plays pretend of living somewhere that they are not, but as you say they are just trying to recapture the good of a certain time. Many argue that it was easier to live a moral life at certain times in the past. The societal push was towards the good, true, and beautiful. Why not long for that? Why not long for more morality, more respect, and more reverence towards God? I don't know anyone that is longing for outhouses, no electricity, and less medical advances.
2. I'm not sure what you mean by "traditional society". If this is the society of the time period that trads long for, then this would have been a fully Catholic or at least actually Christian society. In that situation, you could let your kids wander the neighborhood without worry. You would trust your neighbors to not negatively influence, scandalize, or tempt your children towards bad things. This argument seems to prove that trads are not playing pretend as they are not pretending its a traditional society but are fully aware of what society is like today.
Ideally, we live in a community of family and friends that are like minded and striving to get themselves and others to heaven. However this is difficult and impossible for some, especially currently. Trying to find a house to move to that fits your family, is close enough to work, next to other things your family needs, and is within walking distance of Catholic friends and family is hardly ever possible even for those looking for it. For many families, the mother can feel isolated no matter if she lives in the middle of a big city, in a nice suburb or in the middle of the woods. You may have neighbors who are friendly and help with things when you need it not being in the woods, but not many people have or can get neighbors that they let their kids go run free and visit whomever whenever, trusting their kids won't hear, see, or do scandalizing or immoral things. If the middle of the woods is within driving distance of the things the family needs it is in most cases the same as living in a nice suburb or the city, as you still have to drive to see friends and family.
Are you suggesting not homeschooling? It would be irresponsible or worse, unless you have no other good choice of course, to send your kids to public school, and how many actual Catholic school exist these days? Most Catholic schools should just be considered more expensive public schools. I do agree that a co-op, mothers group, parish priest teaching catechism, something that is group taught by a studied person is ideal and should be strived for. Although for elementary school a mother usually can handle it all by herself, there isn't anything there she doesn't know. I will argue a child at home with a loving mother, learning manners, politeness, and about God is way better off learning nothing but that than going to a public school.
A small nitpick, The story of Jesus found in the temple doesn't really apply here. The holy family went to Jerusalem to celebrate Passover. They were traveling with other people. This does not speak to what their home/community/living situation was, even if it was like you are saying (which it probably was).
3. Here again, even though you say this point is for the online community, it seems to still be said and taken as the whole trad movement. I don't see anything that you're saying in real life. I'm sure there are still examples of what your saying in real life in the trad movement, but if anything it is much less than the society at large.
4. Agreed on this point, but again I'm not seeing what you are talking about in real life. Many trad parishes have men's night for all men, women's night for all women, as well as young people groups. They have after Mass donuts and hang outs in the yard or at a park. Should the parish itself be doing more than this? Beyond that, the individual people will need to make friendships and relationships. I would argue that in all types of people's life it can be difficult and hard work to form relationships between a single person and a married couple with kids. A person's life becomes very different with kids. It should be strived for to make everyone welcome and not ostracize anyone but people also want to be friends with people they have things in common with.
As far as just perspective of single life vs married life, maybe trads hold married life too much higher, but I don't believe anyone is putting down single life because of it.
Also, a consecrated virgin or celebrate or a religious is different than just being single. Shouldn't everyone be discerning their vocation?
5. Who would disagree with this and what you're saying? Trads are concerned about men taking responsibility, knowing that they are the head of the family and have a duty to serve and sacrifice themselves for their wife and children, knowing that they are and will be held responsible. If there are men who don't know that authority is given to serve others then of course they are not being Christian. From the parishes I've gone too and the people I know, I don't see this as an overall actual trad issue, but maybe just a stereotype confusing being the head of the family with being an authoritarian. Society today does not want a man to be a leader but rather to sit there and be quiet and be told what to do, say, and think. Is this just a false accusation attack against Catholicism?
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I understand it makes things easier to give yourself and others labels to talk about things, but the perspective from outside the "trad movement" seems wrong or off. Most people moving to a traditional Mass and a traditional parish are normal people who have just discovered they have been robbed of their inheritance, and are looking for a Mass that best reverences God, and a Mass that God would be most pleased with. They want to get themselves and their family to heaven and want to stay out of mortal sin.
God bless you for having the words I was struggling to find! Totally agree with all of it!
This video isn’t about the traditionalist Catholic movement. It’s about the cross-denominational internet movement that idolizes a return to a rural, agrarian, and heavily patriarchal society.
this video makes me wish I had paid all the money to go to Hampden-Sydney College
Your criticism is highly accurate. I’d add they have an idealistic and utopian view of authoritarian forms of government.
you gy's are over thinking this, live with in your meens, and this is possible, i grew up with this. if your still signal?? get off-line and get out in the world, stop worrying about what other people think. start communicating one on one again.
As the wisest fool once said: “Do not say, “Why were the former days better than these?” For you do not inquire wisely concerning this.”
Ecclesiastes 7:10
Do you like any grunge music?
No.
@@DrJordanBCooper thought I would check :-)
@@DrJordanBCooper I'm curious 'why not?' Do you like any rock or modern music?
@@pigetstuck I like plenty of modern music (punk, indie, hardcore). I just don't like grunge.
@@DrJordanBCooper Ah, I see. It's a taste thing with grunge, not an aversion to all modern music.
As if "authority" and "harm and punish" are the same thing...