Here is a letter written by officer Richard Hoffman in 1969 after the murder of Darlene (he was the first officer to arrive on the scene, and had supposedly patrolled the area 15 mins prior to the murders but claimed no one had been there):i.imgur.com/0u3oUfK.jpg?1?2875 Here is a letter written by zodiac in 1970 i.imgur.com/b2mhfHH.jpg Note the same spelling mistake on the word "untill". In a second report RH also spelled "caseings" instead of casings - it is common in zodiac letters that he did not drop the e in 'ing' words. The victim (Darlene's)'s boyfriend Mike Mageau in the car was shot, survived, and said he thought the shooter had been a police man because he (shooter) had shone a flash light in their eyes. This was not the only instance / zodiac murder where the victim thought the person was a police officer. Darlene had commented on a car that pulled up next to them earlier, stating that the man's name was "Richard" (according to Mageau, who has been questioned on his veracity).Richard Hoffman was also said to be at a painting party of Darlene's in the weeks prior to her murder, someone she was afraid of. Of course, Richard has denied attending the party or knowing Darlene.A phone call from someone claiming to be the Zodiac took place in a phone booth just outside of the Vallejo police department on the evening of Darlene's murder. In 1970, after the murder of Cheri Jo Bates, a poem was found on the underside of a library desk initialed rh:www.zodiologists.com/images/zodi ... p_poem.jpgCould rh = Richard Hoffman? If anyone could help by finding a birthdate on this guy and height that would be a great help. Zodiac was described consistently as 5'8-5'10 and between 25-early 30s in the year 1970. I have yet to find any info available except for these police reports.Further similarities I just noted:This my name is unsolved cipher contains 13 characters. Robert hoffman is 13 characters.. nam backwards could be man? The rest looks like jibberish : t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9 ... EKF4jVZaNA The way RH enunciates 'car' in the Zodiac documentary and the Zodiac caller's enunciation of the same word during the 1969 phone call. Pupil dilation from RH when describing the state of Darlene-arousal? Mention of how her bra was moving (how was that even relevant? Odd.) Even his superior at the time had found his story suspicious about his timing/whereabouts at the Darlene murder.
@George Kouts Your critical thinking and intuitive reasoning are flawed. Nothing you mention has already been gone over numerous times with those with far superior intellect.Go back to your true crime pod cast 🤣
@George Kouts Ever been in Law Enforcement...Ever Worked Any Crime Scene...Ever Worked a Serial Killer Case....Have ANY Training In Police Techniques...NO YOU HAVENT....Stop your childish rant...stick to your Podcast...
Amazes me how well Bryan is able to re-tell the events of what happened that day without breaking down. Strikes me as a very intelligent person and someone you'd want to have your back in a crisis. I feel so awful for him and Cecelia.
He clearly has detatched himself somewhat emotionally. Im sure it affects him deeply but he has processed it in a way that has allowed himself to preserve his emotional and psychological health even after going through such a horrific event. Self preservation is a unbelievably strong attribute we humans have when we learn to employ it and take advantage of its benefits. Certainly that attack and the murder of his friend cause him emotional pain but his ability to control the effects it has on him is like to his having been proactive in processing it over the years. Not all who suffer from PTSD do it the same but undoubtedly he has some significant PTSD . He just has the ability to and tools to keep it under control.
What I learned from this video was that it was very easy to get away with murder back in the late 60s-early 70s. All you had to do was leave no fingerprints (which wouldn’t matter anyway unless they were in the system), don’t kill anyone in front of witnesses, have a getaway plan, and distract the police with pointless nonsense.
Bluewolf the 70’s and 80’s was so full on for serial killers.. I’m not sure about 60’s obviously there was a lot of murders but majority of serial killers are 70’s-80’s it’s crazy
Sure things are tougher but professionals can still easily get away with murders in 2020. CCTV? Strap a mirror piece on your hat and be done with it. Set an automated GPS tracker alibi from a cheap app and no one will ever be able to prove otherwise. The things is, advanced tech gave cops gadgets but made them extremelly sloppy, stupid and lazy.
@@Arctic_Adjuster The direct light (or artificial night vision in case) causes a very strong reflection on mirror strapped to hat. You cannot see anything but a strong shining/blur in recordings which will render facial recognation absolutely impossible. Also you can use any other light sources like laser to blind the camera.
Even More Incredible they never caught him they can lunch space ships to the moon find terrorist invent the internet 1969 solve coldcases world best mathematicians have broken codes the list goes on but put them all together and they cant and havent caught this guy
@@peterm1826used to be convinced it was one person doing it all. As times gone on I get the hunch it may have been two men, working in tandem. Imo it was probably Allen and Cheney teaming up or possibly a wildcard like Marshall, Kane. The mikado references with Allen and Marshall are striking.
Bryan Hartnell walking the scene and describing what happened moment by moment is truly incredible and really grounds the whole thing as a real event that happened to real people.
I know what you mean. It was very compelling. But it only tells a little bit of the story. You don't see the stab wounds he suffered. Or know the psychological impact. You kind of get a hint of that from Mike Mageau, but we can never know how real this actually was.
My stepdad was a retired Santa Cruz Police Officer and later a Investigator who was on the job from 1964 until he retired in 1990. He was a SC cop during its time as the Serial Killer Capital of the world . Serial Killers David Carpenter and Edmund Kemper were both killers he chased. As well as others over those years he worked. He told me there was a double murder in 1970 that without question was a Zodiac killer crime. But they refused to give him anymore publicity or acknowledge the murder being Zodiacs to the public . The victims were teenagers on a dead end road that appeared to have been herded down the dead end by the killer . As the boy was attempting to turn around at roads end tire marks in the dirt and gravel showed they were tailed into the dead end and blocked from exiting before the killer walked up and started shooting the boy & girl through the open car windows just like his 2nd attack . The driver had his drivers license was in his hand as if he thought the killer was a cop and was walking up to ask for it . Winchester ammo was used fired from a 9mm handgun
That is utterly insane. My grandfather was a San Francisco Police Officer who worked on the Leonard Lake murders. Before I say anything else, If you have anymore info about that case please let me know. I wanna look it up myself. As to why the hell that case you mentioned never got brought up is beyond me. Even if they didn’t want to give him any more popularity they should have still spoke out about it.
Actually there was some amazing police work happening in the case. The time at which the Zodiac was killing was a time with very little tech that could help identify the Zodiac . Multiple juristictions where a killers crimes took place creates political as well as professional problems that hinder investigations . The Zodiac was a well versed intelligent nightmare that happened at the perfect time if one was to go unpunished
The casting in this movie was absolutely brilliant in my opinion particularly Mark Ruffalo as Dave Toschi and Brian Cox as Melvin Belli tremendous job.
I didn't realize before, when Bryan Hartnell is recalling the day he and Cecelia were stabbed-he said that Cecelia might have been coming up from UC Riverside, when she met Bryan that day in San Francisco. I'm sure a lot of people already knew this but I hadn't caught it before. It could just be a coincidence but it's an interesting one, to me, at least. I'm referring to Cheri Jo Bates. I know that she isn't an official Zodiac victim but I personally believe she was as do others.
Plus Stover and Hartnell both said Allen’s voice didn’t match. Beginning to think whoever Z was, it was someone completely off the radar maybe never investigated. Tend to go back and forth on suspects, but imo he died in 1993.
I like the style of this documentary. The quiet atmosphere is most chilling. I really appreciate that there is no sensational narrator. I appreciate Bryan Hartnell’s willingness to participate. I appreciate the photos we haven’t had access to. Not until these crime scene areas were shown did I have any understanding of the regional look. Thanks.
eohaver2 that's what seems to be forgotten in the mania...these were real people who had their lives ahead of them and were viciously murdered in cold blood, and the families have never had the sati of catching the person who did these heinous acts
I won’t happen. There is no DNA profile to match him to. They have a partial piece of evidence from one of the envelops, which is presumed to be from Zodiac, but it can only be used to exclude suspects - it isn’t complete enough to identify someone in the way it has been with other cases.
A police man didn't think her seeing his face was important enough to report it? That sounds like the dumbest policing ive ever heard. Since when was a physical eye witness description of a perpetrators face not important?
I'd never realized he was there for 4 hours. Is that true? Has it been corroborated that he had been lying there that long and that others had seen him and not called the police?
@@TheNaturalibra these were different times. It wasn't too weird to assume it wasn't important, because a face isn't what catches your killer. You need a motive and nothing else
Woooooow. Dude laid there dying and people came up and talked to him and just walked away and didn't help. If you do that to me u better make sure I'll die cause if I get better u best believe im going to find u and leave u for dead like u did me. I constantly find myself asking "what's wrong with this world?" The answer is humans. Humans are what's wrong with this world. If humans were gone the universe would be a better place
Dude majority of humans is not like that. We all live a life im happy , my friends and family are happy and we just want to live life. Monsters exist yeah but the universe wouldn’t even give a fuck about if humans live or not. 🤷🏼♂️
To me, it is very revelatory that the Zodiac "chased" Michael Mageau and Darlene Ferrin to Blue Rock Springs park (according to Mageau). I've always understood it as the Zodiac happening upon Ferrin parked there...I don't think that there's any question that he and Ferrin knew each other but those details died with her.
It is, if it did actually happen that way. Good chance it was Phillips, her ex-husband but imho I think it was Kane or Allen. Both men probably knew her from the restaurant. Hard to know for sure obviously, even though Mageau picked Allen out of a lineup.
This is the finest documentary of the Zodiac killer that one can possibly find. The testimonials are unusually lucid and non-repetitive in nature. Evidence from the murder sites are shown and accompanied by poignant music such as Mussorksy’s Pictures at an Exhibition. This film has much important content and attempts to clear up false beliefs that have emerged. Utterly engrossing and compassionate in nature.
I cannot leave this doc alone ... I'm in the UK & this US case truly haunts me. I even subbed to a channel that offers the most intriguing explanations to the case. - mind blowing doesn't even come close to what they have to say .
@@pyewackett5 What is the name of that channel that you subscribed to? Is it available in the US ? Sounds fascinating. There is a new 3 episode series on Netflix that focuses on Arthur Leigh Allen which is excellent.
@@robertshapiro3733 It's a strange little channel , with very little content except for the comments left about the Zodiac. Cannot remember the name of it off the top of my head , but I will trawl thru my subscriptions for you. You are quite correct about the Kim Novak film , however the name Pyewackett goes all the way back to seventeenth century England. It's among a list of names given to a witch's 'pets' (familiars). At the time I couldn't make my mind up between choosing Pyewackett or Vinegar Tom 😊 Best wishes x
The whole part between 20:35 to 22:11 is weird. 20:41 - when discussing whether Darleen said anything immediately after the event, he talks about a "piece of material" from her bra fluttering. Sounds more like an attempt at nonsensical misdirection than a relevant detail. 21:57 - when responding to the accusation he knew Darleen personally, there's a correction in his speech from "her house" to "Darleen and her husband's" house. Perhaps a genuine attempt to be more informative and professional, but definitely an attempt to sound less personable. Unlike seconds later at 22:06 when his response was entirely personal as he smirks at the accusation of him being at the house, followed by the textbook "it wasn't me" at 22:09, and even laughs 22:10.
I think his point about the bra fluttering was that she was so full of holes, her bra fluttered when a breath was given to her, hence, "there was no talking to her".
@@VonFisch1it's a freaking weird detail to remember and focus on. And disrespectful to her to talk about her like that. And refer to her as "the girl." Hoffman gives off bad vibes.
This story with Zodiac really troubles me, this guy was intelligent, crazy, very mean and cunning. It sounds like two cops drove by him right after he killed the cab driver, talked to him according to Zodiac himself, and one of them got a glimpse of him, that’s pretty creepy, they could have got him, I’d hate to have to live with that. I’m sure Zodiac is dead now, hopefully, another case like Jack the Ripper, we will never know who did all of what was done 🤦♂️
Dennis there was no jack the ripper, it was at least 3 different people they know for fact so far.sorry America to burst your bubble but a cloaked man in a horse and carriage never stalked the east end. It was made up by papers at actual time just for sales. The English keep the mystery of jack the ripper for American films and tourists bucks. Did you all know Nessy is real? Honest ha ha come on up 50 dollars to look at an empty loch
Hello Glenn, interesting how these unsolved murder cases turn into these type of conversations, who most likely did it or was there more than one person who killed, you have to admit we never find out for sure. In my opinion and I’ve read a lot on Jack the Ripper it was one man and he never got caught, same with Zodiac killer 🤷♂️
@@dennisnorried524 Hiya, there never was a romantic vision of old jack. IV studied the case for years, out of the 9 victims he probably only killed 3. A guardsman killed Martha tabram, Michael kidney killed Elizabeth stride, Joseph Barnett admitted to then retracted killing of Mary Kelly and Jacob levy most probably killed Chapman and Nichols and involved with killing eddowes. Rumour of copycat surfaced at the time as well.you have to remember the press at the time made so much up the police didn't stand a chance. Hope you may look into it further. Thanks for reply
Hello again Glenn, here we are in the year 2020 talking about Jack the Ripper, it’s kinda funny, tell you what, he was worse than the Zodiac, look what he did to the bodies, anyway I think he killed Nichols,Chapman,Stride,Eddowes and Kelly, all prostitutes. These other facts you have come from research you’ve done that I’m not aware of, your right about the papers back then, reminds me of times now, I do think he butchered the five I mentioned and unfortunately didn’t get caught ☹️
So basically, only Paul Stine saw his face clearly in the mirror. Maybe they even had a discussion, friendly chat before he was killed. I believe that he watched Zodiac movie in cinema, because I have my own suspect. Can you believe watching that movie in cinema and sitting near an old man who is the Zodiac? Creepy.
But what's the point when guy got away with it. Did you watch movie Charlie Chan on Treasure Island? Take a look at it and you'll see that he completely took the identity and Mo from Dr. Zodiac (in the movie), it's like he wanted to implement it into the real life. Watch it and everything will be much more clear.
8:57 Look at that Handwriting. Who wrote that evidence CARD? Look at the candy cane F. The desk from the library was signed with "rh". The survivor said Bates referred to the guy that followed him as "Richard". One of the officers is names Richard, and has the initials "RH".
@Jimmy James A very random mixture of upper and lower case throughout the document...sadly indicative of the quality of the Police work on this case... EvideNce 187.P.C. CAse No. V-25564 #9 ONe DRess beLoNgiNg To V- Betty Lou JeNseN PuRple White TRiM 5 Bullet holes iN BAck ONe Bullet hoLe FRoNt of dRess F-2795-9 Written by an 8-year old, perhaps?
@@Penguin_of_Death Yea, you would think that it would be written better than that. Just made me think how Zodiac himself could of done it. I have awful handwriting, but I wouldnt have wrote that evidence card like a serial killer.
Brian seemed quite intelligent and very articulate even back in the day. Handsome boy. Shame his gf Cecilia did not make it and this has to haunt him for the rest of his life (and Michael's) :(
Actually, Celia wasn't his girlfriend, he was involved with another girl and the Detective that interviewed him in hospital said Brian was very concerned about when the news of the attack would be made public. Check out the film of him being interviewed in his hospital bed, very calm and relaxed...always struck me as bizarre.
@@desolation2row That's just his personality. No way the guy tied himself and stabbed himself. Also Cecilia was alive when police arrived and gave the same description as Brian did.
@@desolation2rowYou do know there have been other people that have survived gunshot, and knife wounds. Have talked calmly well being interviewed, in order to give out the best description of the scenario. And suspect as they possibly could, yes some are agitated and irritable during police interviews after an attack. But then there others that handle the interviews calmly.
"Journalist :Why is it unknown that she saw his face. Detective: I didn't report it. I didn't think it was important at the time." 1:00:18 Then he laughed. Why go through all the trouble of describing what he looked like if you are not Even going to report it all.
I’m here after seeing it on TikTok. That being said, I’ve heard the name Richard Hoffman thrown around before but the grandson of Hoffman presents some compelling details/evidence IMO.
@@annees9738the grandson would be carrying his father’s DNA. The grandson’s mother was Hoffman’s daughter. You’d have to look at the DNA in the grandson’s mother for Hoffman’s DNA. It maybe possible to also utilize MtDNA.
Darlene says his name is Richard. Richard is in the area, first on the scene. "I was there, I left. I returned quickly, even though I left 30 mins prior. Grandson might have something or just coincidence
I want to addim in no way judging Michael Mageau and his life choices after this horrible ordeal. Wether or not he did become an addict or he's like the way he is because of being shot. I definitely would not want to go through that nor wish anybody else to go through that.
1.03.00 this doesnt make sense If Cecilia Shephard had been stabbed multiple hours before and lost consciousness and all the rest of it then how the hell is she able to give a perfect long incredibly detailed description of the Zodiac to this officer? Including pointing her arms at places and accurately guesstimating distances and positions. Where was this interview held with her? Literally lying on the ground where she had been stabbed? What? "Let me stand where he was and then look at me..." Shouldn't she have been receiving medical attention not taking place in a long crime reconstruction? Wtf?
I didn't understand that at all...and to add insult to injury...this police officer doesn't even report that she described the suspect...what sense does any of this make???
Aye, I found that very fishy. There's lots that doesn't add up for me. I'm not accusing anybody of anything, just pointing out things that seem strange to me - like for example, Bryan Hartnell was stabbed 6 times in the back and yet there was no serious injury, so I assume the attacker managed to avoid all of his major organs. Perhaps he did just get lucky. In another documentary Cheney brings up 'The ABC Murders' by Agatha Christie. In the book the third of the four murders was of someone with the initials 'C.C.' - here, in the supposed third attack, the murder victim was named Cecilia, a name that is commonly abbreviated to 'CeeCee'. There are lots of other things I find curious about this case, far too many for a TH-cam comment.
It's not even that they'd never experienced something like this before ( a serial killer hence why they were calling him a crazed killer at first ) this was the late 1960s they werent prepared at all to deal with this kind of stuff
Can you believe the cop who spoke to what in all probability was the zodiac after he shot the cab driver and then only mention now that he saw him about to enter an address of which he can recall to this day. Can anyone find out who lived at that address in 1969
I saw the film ZODIAC back when it came out and saw it again a few years later on video complete with some special features,one which creeped me out for some reason,a still of one of the killer's ciphers. I stared at it in silence and wondered what it really said, because no one has been able,apparently,to completely decipher it.
8:46 is absolutely terrifying. It looks like an evil nun in a white robe is behind the deceased victim and is holding her. The top left of the gurney looks like the evil nun’s face. I was falling asleep whilst watching this doc and that image woke me right up.
This Zodiac character is way overhyped. He killed teenagers and a cabbie. Hardly an overwhelming and unstoppable evil force of nature. He was a punk. The only things that makes it news are the letters. The cops couldn’t solve it so he comes off as a master criminal. His genius code was broken by a couple of amateurs. The unsolved code is likely just a hodgepodge of characters although it could be legit. You can produce an unbreakable code with a bit of research too. I used to be impressed by this whole Zodiac show, but it’s really just about an over-promoted loser who managed to get away with it.
@@omegahorizon82 Not likely. A police officer would not have made as many mistakes as the Zodiac did, the killer was probably a loner who had lived a hard life.
16:08 Isn't policeman Richard Hoffman who was on duty in plain clothing a serious suspect now? Darlene said that the person following her was named Richard. The initials RH was on the desk in Riverside where Bates was killed which match the handwriting in the letters. The killer used a flashlight much in the same way a cop would. 21:52 Graysmith claims that Hoffman was at Darlene's house at painting party. He denies this. He's obviously a suspect saying he's never seen her before, but he probably did know her as Darlene said the person following her that night was named Richard. 24:50 This is where Mike says the name "Richard". A man named Richard was jealous and following her around. Graysmith says that Richard Hoffman was at Darlene's painting party uninvited which he denies in this documentary. That makes Richard Hoffman the most likely suspect as he fits the mold of the killer who used a flashlight the way a cop uses one. The killer definitely knew Darlene. Right at 24:59. He knows the name of the killer.
Hoffman put himself at the scene of the crime 30 minutes before the call to police. Ballsy. There was almost no reason for him to admit that other than it fits with the Zodiac taunting law enforcement. He said no one was there. I wonder if they asked Mageau how long he and Darlene were there. If they were there for more than 30 minutes, isn't it case closed?
How many mistakes did the investigators make in this case? So many. Toschi was a joke of a detective. Police officers goofed up left and right. Literally had him right in front of their faces. The whole Paul Stein slip up. No wonder why the Zodiac had help in getting by with it all. And Graysmith is the biggest crook of them all with his narrative of Allen being the Zodiac. Michael Butterfield sucks too. 1:16:25
@@aisthpaoithtwhite and negro, which is the word that would have been used to describe a black person then, have a diff amount of syllables and doesnt sound similar… even on a shitty radio silly. Even if it was white vs black, Caucasian vs African American, etc. No two words to describe these 2 skin colors sounds similar enough. Easy to believe it was initially racist
Maybe the actual zodiac called to deceive the police, he knew there were police around. Where did the description of the killer being black come from? Was it from a residence or a pay phone near the murder scene of Paul Stine
@@christopherkimble8534from the child that called the police as the crime was in progress, they were across the street in the upper floors looking down at him (key word *child*)
Two weeks ago i was at the reservoir lake early morning. I was swimming by the shore. Two boys started altercation with individual who was sitting by the water. When they called him out with explicit intention to beat him, he went down in the water, any time he did opposite movement they wanted him to do. They didn't get him to beat, so they just retreated left him unharmed. I believe collaboration with the perpetrator isn't good option. Most perpetrators have no sentiment towards their victims. You should unexpectedly change your position and run away, go into the water, climb the tree or something else. Also loud roar, will be very uncomfortable for any perpetrator. Talking cover in the bushes would be also very confusing for him.
I live in California and never knew that the first killing was in blue rock springs, which I have been many many times and even hiked up the house by the park.. scares me to even think about it.
Cecilia shepherd who was murdered at Lake Berryessa is the 1st cousin to my long time brother-in-law.... I have met that family I have met her mother.... I have been through Hermon road and I've been to the area at Lake Berryessa.... This story has intrigued me as much as anybody over the many years.... The modder got very lucky because there were a number of people who sighted him... .. The zodiac murderer guy is probably a lot like the BTK Dennis rader..... He is some on assuming unimpressive man who probably has a family and hes probably work at the same job.... Personally I think the man is still alive there's a very good chance he is.... Look at Dennis rader he was that communities version of the zodiac and when they cottam he was completely employed totally living his life...... I wouldn't be surprised of the zodiac murder or piece of ship is watching these videos and reading our comments
aS an old man let me tell yOu something. Our mere eXistence as humans on this planet is a recipe for crime. We will be able to deter it to some degrees but we can't escape it.Crime is built into our nature as humans and there is no way to rid ourselves of it. By the way aren't human beings the most dangerous animal of all ?
Zodiac was obviously an engineer. His writing is typical of an engineer, all the letters are leaning at 75 degree, and the 'zodiac-sign' is how engineers draw a circle, indicating the center of the circle.
This is just a theory of mine but I think it was 2-3 people working together. Maybe two split the killings and one wrote the letter. This explains the conflicting police sketches, etc. I don’t think it was a lone killer. It doesn’t add up.
I've always thought so too. Always the same letter writer. Look at how many were teams or a group. Hillside Strangler(s). Toolbox Killers. Freeway killer(s). Sunset Strip killer(s). Up until the 70's killing in pairs or more was unheard of. Spree killers are different ( Bonnie and Clyde) The Barker Boys...
Arthur Leigh Allan and Don Chaney could have been the pair just a hunch. Doesn’t Chaney say he licked the stamps on Allan’s mail for him? Did they ever get DNA from Don Chaney. Chaney gave the police info on ALA but nothing incriminating that I remember all circumstantial. Probably wrong but those two fuckers seemed like they were thick as thieves
@@deathbystereo- The letter writer provides facts only the killer could know in the Lake Herman Road attack Then the writer of the letter writes on the door at the Berryessa attack. "The writing on Bryan Hartnell’s car door is unmistakably similar to the Zodiac’s handwriting, and Morrill himself concluded that the Zodiac was responsible for that message." The letter writer then provides portions of Steins bloody shirt in his letter after the Stein attack. Just because there are conflicting sketches doesn't mean there was a "team Zodiac" as the OP suggests; that is just adding complexity, especially since we know that eyewitness testimony is far from 100% reliable. The series of attacks: East Area Rapist/Original night Stalker were linked by DNA however prior to that there was The Visalia Ransacker which some saw as being committed by EARONS, many however said it could not be the same person because the sketches didn't match, that the VR was "chubbier" than EARONS but we now know it was the same person.
Richard Hoffman, the cop in the video is the killer. He was the one patrolling the area, the gun that killed Darlene was a known Cop/military man’s gun “ browning’s. , the calls from the killer were all made outside the police station lol he wrote the word “until” incorrectly / with 2 L’s like the killer , all a coincidence ? OH Mike the victim said the person following them is a jealous man aka someone she was messing with , his name is RICHARD!! She was rumoured to be messing with 2 cops btw, the poem has the initials RH lol what else ?
Nailed it. And look at him here. He's reminiscing about the murder, not just telling what he saw. Also, why did he not try to help the victims? Why did he outline Mageau in chalk when he was still alive? Why didn't he try to help either of them?
Exactly and he’s super creepy in this interview. Doesn’t answer questions. Didn’t talk to victims. Chalk traced a victim not dead and didn’t offer aid. Only 6 minute window per the other cops with Hoffman there before and after
@@agnoses bingo. I mean, he was THERE in such a tiny window with the murder. And the murder occurred exactly in conformity with an undercover police vehicle pulling up behind a car.
I heard that it was two cops that worked together. That's probably why the case was never solved. Golden State Killer was a cop and that took forever to solve as well. No coincidence why.
What would you do with information that she saw his face? She died before anyone else could do some sort of police sketch. There is the only possible conclusion - she saw his face and did not recognize him - so she wasnt familiar with him. But that doesnt help investigation in any way.
@@aisthpaoitht How? 1.) if she recognized him, she would tell it to Hartnell, so he would know she recognized him.... She didnt.... 2.) she described the killer to police officer and sadly due to her state and then because she sadly died, she wasnt able to do further description (or help with police sketch) and he took description from her..... What "new uknown" information would it bring? There is no "new" information which you can get from that information and which cannot be concluded from others.
This is a master class on how to screw up a case. They should show this at the police academy as an example of terrible police work. Half the reason he got away with it was terrible police work.
He probably was a cop who worked on some of th cases of the people he killed. They are saying Richard hoffman the cop in this video is the zodiac killer. He was the first one to arrive on one of the murders.
At the time this happened I lived in Sacramento CA. I saw and remember the sketches of the Zodiac killer on the news in real time. I remember seeing him as if it were today. As much as I watch true crime, this was real for me. Lock up your doors, windows and children as we didn’t back then. Most of all, abide in Christ. His angels watched over me then and now. Only now I’m not stupid. I continually strive to exercise God’s wisdom. Laugh all you want but please be safe. And wise.
F*&K "Christ" and his hippy son. Where the Hell were they when this killer was murdering his "flock"? One thing you crazies say is right: He doth move in mysterious ways... outright fckuing baffling and nonsensical ways. "HE" is a total crock of sh!t; you might as well pray to Mr. Toad, Superman, or KnightRider - fictional characters all - and one common thread is this: they are all as responsive and helpful as the Lamb of fckuing God. Had you fallen into the Zodiacs clutches? That cross and bible would have been left splattered and coagulated with the warm blood of your butchered and rotting corpse. Still: Praise the Lord, eh?
I love all of this that you said. It reminds me so much of what Patsy Ramsey said when here poor little girl got killed. And the GOD stuff is chef's kiss. Big fan of his.
Lake Herman Road is one of those roads that you can put your car into neutral, and it will start to roll backwards. It's eerie, adds to the horror of all this terrible stuff.
So I watched this year's ago but just noticed that the dispatcher stated that the first call was from a young woman saying that someone was shooting at some kids which means there is a witness
So Cecilia Shepard at the lake died because police kept questioning her instead of rushing her to the hospital or at least telling her not to talk now. She could have survived.
She was mortally wounded it was important to get as much info from her as possible She wouldn’t of been able to survive her wounds and moving her would of hastened her death
How about the fisherman who clearly heard them, stopped their motor, and then decided to kept going? They could have been saved but this person just left them there.
Michael Mageau's account here conflicts with what is known as fact. Shortly after he and Darlene Ferrin were shot (estimated to be 12:10am) a car arrived with three teenagers who discovered the scene and quickly left to raise the alarm. The timeline was confirmed by a caretaker who heard the killers car leave the car park at high speed. He estimated that the time was 12:10am. The teenagers arrived at the car park a few minutes later and discovered the scene - they went for help and the police arrived at the car park at 12:20am. So the care taker hears the car leave at 12:10 - The teenagers arrive a few minutes later and discover the crime scene and the police arrive at Approx 12:20am. - Michael couldn't have been laying there for hours as he claims. I'm sure it may have felt like hours though..
It obviously felt like hours. The kid's come up and ask if he's okay then leave him there, just like he said. They went to get help but he doesn't remember that. Police come ask him if he's okay while waiting for the ambulance that's all true. Mike Mageau says the killer drove away quietly, the killer said he drove away quietly, I believe their accounts. They were there.
There aren't any known recordings, his calls to the police weren't recorded and the guy who called the TV wasn't the Zodiac. Turned out to be a patient at a hospital.
1:06:14 pardon me? You didn’t think it was important that one of the victims, who died shortly thereafter, saw the perpetrator’s face?! 🤔 that is so strange, wtf?
And with that laugh afterward, how could that not be important and pertinent information. An actual physical description of the man that killed this woman and it goes unreported, fucking unbelievable
Maybe he couldn’t bring himself to have a face to face/eye contact with people he was going to kill? Remove all emotion from the moment kinda thing, or could even be it helped him feel like he became something or somebody else in order to carry out the crimes
@@LuxioV2 Perhaps. But it could also could also be so that the murderer wanted to hide his face, and the Lake Berryessa attack was the only case where the Zodiac killer struck in daylight. Another possibility is that the murderer was hoping to confuse or scare the victims with that hood. Who knows?
I believe it's because it would be soaked with blood spatter, so he could remove it and bag it and walk away without anyone noticing he had blood on him.
Maybe it was because Michael Mageau survived Zodiac’s attack before he went to Lake berryessa? He was being more careful this time so he wore a mask in case one of the victims would survive or maybe it was because it happened in daylight and that a few ppl would go there so he made sure he couldn’t be identified
I do believe the second case case had motive. Investigate the young woman’s husband and people he knew. Talk to people that worked at the restaurant. I don’t believe the case will be solved with odd crazy theories. Old fashion detective work. Find the motive, finds whom is responsible. Michael’s Mageau’s gf obviously knew the killer. For what it’s worth, that’s where the investigation should begin.
Anyone else decide to go on a Zodiac research spree after the cypher was decoded lol
Lol yes I did
Guilty 😅
Here is a letter written by officer Richard Hoffman in 1969 after the murder of Darlene (he was the first officer to arrive on the scene, and had supposedly patrolled the area 15 mins prior to the murders but claimed no one had been there):i.imgur.com/0u3oUfK.jpg?1?2875
Here is a letter written by zodiac in 1970 i.imgur.com/b2mhfHH.jpg
Note the same spelling mistake on the word "untill". In a second report RH also spelled "caseings" instead of casings - it is common in zodiac letters that he did not drop the e in 'ing' words.
The victim (Darlene's)'s boyfriend Mike Mageau in the car was shot, survived, and said he thought the shooter had been a police man because he (shooter) had shone a flash light in their eyes. This was not the only instance / zodiac murder where the victim thought the person was a police officer.
Darlene had commented on a car that pulled up next to them earlier, stating that the man's name was "Richard" (according to Mageau, who has been questioned on his veracity).Richard Hoffman was also said to be at a painting party of Darlene's in the weeks prior to her murder, someone she was afraid of. Of course, Richard has denied attending the party or knowing Darlene.A phone call from someone claiming to be the Zodiac took place in a phone booth just outside of the Vallejo police department on the evening of Darlene's murder.
In 1970, after the murder of Cheri Jo Bates, a poem was found on the underside of a library desk initialed rh:www.zodiologists.com/images/zodi ... p_poem.jpgCould rh = Richard Hoffman? If anyone could help by finding a birthdate on this guy and height that would be a great help. Zodiac was described consistently as 5'8-5'10 and between 25-early 30s in the year 1970. I have yet to find any info available except for these police reports.Further similarities I just noted:This my name is unsolved cipher contains 13 characters. Robert hoffman is 13 characters.. nam backwards could be man? The rest looks like jibberish : t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9 ... EKF4jVZaNA
The way RH enunciates 'car' in the Zodiac documentary and the Zodiac caller's enunciation of the same word during the 1969 phone call. Pupil dilation from RH when describing the state of Darlene-arousal? Mention of how her bra was moving (how was that even relevant? Odd.) Even his superior at the time had found his story suspicious about his timing/whereabouts at the Darlene murder.
Just a few days before, I watched another thing about him. Kinda kooky
Yessss!! Lol
I really appreciate the lack of melodrama in this documentary. Just people talking to the camera - no over the top editing or music.
So true. Also reenactments will ruin a documentary
Also, subtle shade.
Also stock photos all over the voiceover that have nothing to do with the actual story.
@@brodie-tzu4753 😅for real. i love when they keep reusing the same image 3 or 4 times like wow they were struggling for content
He's probably in a nursing home somewhere watching these videos and old media coverage with a smirk.
@Derrek James Says who exactly?
@Derrek James Interesting
@George Kouts You have no idea what you speak of Joe Friday
@George Kouts Your critical thinking and intuitive reasoning are flawed. Nothing you mention has already been gone over numerous times with those with far superior intellect.Go back to your true crime pod cast 🤣
@George Kouts Ever been in Law Enforcement...Ever Worked Any Crime Scene...Ever Worked a Serial Killer Case....Have ANY Training In Police Techniques...NO YOU HAVENT....Stop your childish rant...stick to your Podcast...
Amazes me how well Bryan is able to re-tell the events of what happened that day without breaking down. Strikes me as a very intelligent person and someone you'd want to have your back in a crisis. I feel so awful for him and Cecelia.
He clearly has detatched himself somewhat emotionally. Im sure it affects him deeply but he has processed it in a way that has allowed himself to preserve his emotional and psychological health even after going through such a horrific event. Self preservation is a unbelievably strong attribute we humans have when we learn to employ it and take advantage of its benefits. Certainly that attack and the murder of his friend cause him emotional pain but his ability to control the effects it has on him is like to his having been proactive in processing it over the years. Not all who suffer from PTSD do it the same but undoubtedly he has some significant PTSD . He just has the ability to and tools to keep it under control.
agreed
Well, he's a lawyer. Nuff Said.
He seems interested in telling his story (then and now) , without any regard for Cecilia...
He has really changed since then. Even his voice is totally different.
What I learned from this video was that it was very easy to get away with murder back in the late 60s-early 70s. All you had to do was leave no fingerprints (which wouldn’t matter anyway unless they were in the system), don’t kill anyone in front of witnesses, have a getaway plan, and distract the police with pointless nonsense.
Bluewolf the 70’s and 80’s was so full on for serial killers.. I’m not sure about 60’s obviously there was a lot of murders but majority of serial killers are 70’s-80’s it’s crazy
It's the ciphers that set the Zodiac apart.
Sure things are tougher but professionals can still easily get away with murders in 2020.
CCTV? Strap a mirror piece on your hat and be done with it. Set an automated GPS tracker alibi from a cheap app and no one will ever be able to prove otherwise. The things is, advanced tech gave cops gadgets but made them extremelly sloppy, stupid and lazy.
@@Arctic_Adjuster The direct light (or artificial night vision in case) causes a very strong reflection on mirror strapped to hat. You cannot see anything but a strong shining/blur in recordings which will render facial recognation absolutely impossible. Also you can use any other light sources like laser to blind the camera.
@Alton Alton No prob! Of course it’s a lot different now...
Its an incredible story. Its even more incredible that it's true.
Even More Incredible
they never caught him
they can lunch space ships to the moon
find terrorist invent the internet 1969
solve coldcases world best mathematicians have broken codes
the list goes on but put them all together and they cant and havent caught this guy
Ikr, its almost like Jack the Ripper
You are light 💫✨ i love you 💎
@@peterm1826used to be convinced it was one person doing it all. As times gone on I get the hunch it may have been two men, working in tandem. Imo it was probably Allen and Cheney teaming up or possibly a wildcard like Marshall, Kane. The mikado references with Allen and Marshall are striking.
Bryan Hartnell walking the scene and describing what happened moment by moment is truly incredible and really grounds the whole thing as a real event that happened to real people.
I know what you mean. It was very compelling. But it only tells a little bit of the story. You don't see the stab wounds he suffered. Or know the psychological impact. You kind of get a hint of that from Mike Mageau, but we can never know how real this actually was.
My stepdad was a retired Santa Cruz Police Officer and later a Investigator who was on the job from 1964 until he retired in 1990. He was a SC cop during its time as the Serial Killer Capital of the world . Serial Killers David Carpenter and Edmund Kemper were both killers he chased. As well as others over those years he worked. He told me there was a double murder in 1970 that without question was a Zodiac killer crime. But they refused to give him anymore publicity or acknowledge the murder being Zodiacs to the public . The victims were teenagers on a dead end road that appeared to have been herded down the dead end by the killer . As the boy was attempting to turn around at roads end tire marks in the dirt and gravel showed they were tailed into the dead end and blocked from exiting before the killer walked up and started shooting the boy & girl through the open car windows just like his 2nd attack . The driver had his drivers license was in his hand as if he thought the killer was a cop and was walking up to ask for it . Winchester ammo was used fired from a 9mm handgun
Wtf that's insane do you have any more details about this crime?
Crazy man
That is utterly insane. My grandfather was a San Francisco Police Officer who worked on the Leonard Lake murders.
Before I say anything else, If you have anymore info about that case please let me know. I wanna look it up myself.
As to why the hell that case you mentioned never got brought up is beyond me. Even if they didn’t want to give him any more popularity they should have still spoke out about it.
Wow..That’s crazy why this wasn’t properly added..Was it was because it would have shown incompetence or started a panic..
It was probably Joseph James DeAngelo. He was in California since 1968. He could also be the Zodiac.
.
The only thing that is clear in this case is that it was horrible police work.
I think it was a policeman that did it
Well said.
@Ray Ramirez wow, if you’re being serious I honestly feel bad for a vapid person like yourself
Actually there was some amazing police work happening in the case. The time at which the Zodiac was killing was a time with very little tech that could help identify the Zodiac . Multiple juristictions where a killers crimes took place creates political as well as professional problems that hinder investigations . The Zodiac was a well versed intelligent nightmare that happened at the perfect time if one was to go unpunished
They had him . 3 mins after a killing but let him go because he wasn’t black as reported In the police scanner
Seems a good documentary going to save it for later, thanks for the upload.
absolutely
Outstanding
If they can find and arrest The Golden State Killer after 40 years, I guess there is a chance they could find The Zodiac if he's still alive that is.
MySecretMachine hey
Even if he is dead I think it would still bring closure to many to know the case has been solved and closed, also would make for big headlines
Arthur Leigh Allen, thought to be the zodiac killer, unfortunately a deceased man that will never be brought to true justice
He gotta be dead bruh 😕
hes dead my dude
Mr. Bidou, the policeman from the first part of this is very impressive. Articulate and sharp, looks like he has aged very gracefully.
Mike Mageau is so brave for being apart of this documentary. If it were me id never want to speak about it publically
So brave it took him 20 years to say a word😂. Also your a coward if they kill your girl and you refuse to do something about it
So brave it took him 20 years to talk😂
@@AY-qy4jn Trauma will do that
@@SpaceFlowerAesthetic fear will do that. Being fearful for yourself is selfish
@@AY-qy4jn Who are you to judge? Were you shot at in your teens? Asshole
Never get tired of watching this.
I could watch it over, and over , again. Like a greatest hits.
Weird
Me too.
The casting in this movie was absolutely brilliant in my opinion particularly Mark Ruffalo as Dave Toschi and Brian Cox as Melvin Belli tremendous job.
Wrong movie. This is a documentary......
😂😂 this is a documentary....
Still, the movie is one of my favorites. Excellent cast.
It was well done. Perhaps one day they'll say "My name is Ed Edwards".
I didn't realize before, when Bryan Hartnell is recalling the day he and Cecelia were stabbed-he said that Cecelia might have been coming up from UC Riverside, when she met Bryan that day in San Francisco. I'm sure a lot of people already knew this but I hadn't caught it before. It could just be a coincidence but it's an interesting one, to me, at least. I'm referring to Cheri Jo Bates. I know that she isn't an official Zodiac victim but I personally believe she was as do others.
I thought That cecelia and Bryan drove down together.
Give Mike a break please. He’s been through hell and obviously relives it every day of his life
Nancy Slover and Bryan Hartnell are both saying he had a disrinctive voice, I feel like if it were Hoffman they would recognize him.
Good point.
Plus Stover and Hartnell both said Allen’s voice didn’t match. Beginning to think whoever Z was, it was someone completely off the radar maybe never investigated. Tend to go back and forth on suspects, but imo he died in 1993.
Nothing like a serial killer murder before bedtime
Spoken like a true aficionado.
2025…never see a doc made like this anymore..
My gf died when she was 22. I’m 39 now. I feel the same way as the one survivor. That I’ve lived and had a nice life. I feel bad she didn’t get to.
Were you 20 at the time
@@charlesgardner7258 yeah what do u ask?
@@user-pu1xq9ef9ujust like Bryan Hartnell at the time
@@user-pu1xq9ef9ukinda like how Bryan was 20 and Cecelia was 22 what year was this when your girlfriend died and where was it
I like the style of this documentary. The quiet atmosphere is most chilling. I really appreciate that there is no sensational narrator. I appreciate Bryan Hartnell’s willingness to participate. I appreciate the photos we haven’t had access to. Not until these crime scene areas were shown did I have any understanding of the regional look. Thanks.
I attended PUC many years later, and my family and I were very familiar with Lake Berryessa. What a sad, lonely place to die! Those poor kids.
eohaver2 that's what seems to be forgotten in the mania...these were real people who had their lives ahead of them and were viciously murdered in cold blood, and the families have never had the sati of catching the person who did these heinous acts
Think he was SDA ? Riverside close to LLU. LA Sierra U. Then close to PUC ??
Actually Bryan survived
Only on died..didn’t you watch ?
motorcicles.
I wake up every day hoping the genetic genealogy is used to finally catch this lunatic.
Yeah, I hope in this lifetime we can definitively find out who was behind these murders and bring closure.
Yeah, what is taking so long with the genetic DNA match. I'm already burning in hell waiting for it.
I won’t happen. There is no DNA profile to match him to. They have a partial piece of evidence from one of the envelops, which is presumed to be from Zodiac, but it can only be used to exclude suspects - it isn’t complete enough to identify someone in the way it has been with other cases.
Just disturbing to see how screwed up how this whole event ruined micheal’s life
Finally someone who feels sorry and has something nice to say about Michael
He was never caught because the forensics weren't even available at the time or thought of
So, forward thinking? I would agree.
A police man didn't think her seeing his face was important enough to report it? That sounds like the dumbest policing ive ever heard. Since when was a physical eye witness description of a perpetrators face not important?
so in other words, standard operating procedure
Imagine laying in the dirt in the middle of the night with 5 bullet holes for 4 hours
That is unbelievable. Terrifying. Glad it wasn't me. Getting shot I mean, not the other thing.
I'd never realized he was there for 4 hours. Is that true? Has it been corroborated that he had been lying there that long and that others had seen him and not called the police?
1:06:19 “I didn’t report it”.
Great job dude...
Excellent police work👌🏾😏...not reporting the description of the suspect from the victim is wonderful
@@TheNaturalibra these were different times. It wasn't too weird to assume it wasn't important, because a face isn't what catches your killer. You need a motive and nothing else
He still should of reported it how unprofessional is that
Its not too bad because her description was hazy af. Not reliable, its not some kind of a smoking gun.
❤You are loved❤️🩵💝
30:57 “I was gonna marry her, I took it really hard that she died.”
Literally almost brought me to tears.
Woooooow. Dude laid there dying and people came up and talked to him and just walked away and didn't help. If you do that to me u better make sure I'll die cause if I get better u best believe im going to find u and leave u for dead like u did me. I constantly find myself asking "what's wrong with this world?" The answer is humans. Humans are what's wrong with this world. If humans were gone the universe would be a better place
I'd never ditch someone, but u are not required to help anyone
Alright anarchist
E Fox bro, it’s a joke. Are you dense?
Ok kyle, pipe down
Dude majority of humans is not like that. We all live a life im happy , my friends and family are happy and we just want to live life. Monsters exist yeah but the universe wouldn’t even give a fuck about if humans live or not. 🤷🏼♂️
To me, it is very revelatory that the Zodiac "chased" Michael Mageau and Darlene Ferrin to Blue Rock Springs park (according to Mageau). I've always understood it as the Zodiac happening upon Ferrin parked there...I don't think that there's any question that he and Ferrin knew each other but those details died with her.
😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
It is, if it did actually happen that way. Good chance it was Phillips, her ex-husband but imho I think it was Kane or Allen. Both men probably knew her from the restaurant. Hard to know for sure obviously, even though Mageau picked Allen out of a lineup.
This is the finest documentary of the Zodiac killer that one can possibly find. The testimonials are unusually lucid and non-repetitive in nature. Evidence from the murder sites are shown and accompanied by poignant music such as Mussorksy’s Pictures at an Exhibition. This film has much important content and attempts to clear up false beliefs that have emerged. Utterly engrossing and compassionate in nature.
I think of it like a reminiscent journey down memory lane.
I cannot leave this doc alone ...
I'm in the UK & this US case truly haunts me. I even subbed to a channel that offers the most intriguing explanations to the case.
- mind blowing doesn't even come close to what they have to say .
@@pyewackett5 What is the name of that channel that you subscribed to? Is it available in the US ? Sounds fascinating. There is a new 3 episode series on Netflix that focuses on Arthur Leigh Allen which is excellent.
@@pyewackett5 Is Pyewackett the name of the cat in that movie with James Stewart, Kim Novak et al?
@@robertshapiro3733
It's a strange little channel , with very little content except for the comments left about the Zodiac. Cannot remember the name of it off the top of my head , but I will trawl thru my subscriptions for you.
You are quite correct about the Kim Novak film , however the name Pyewackett goes all the way back to seventeenth century England. It's among a list of names given to a witch's 'pets' (familiars).
At the time I couldn't make my mind up between choosing Pyewackett or Vinegar Tom 😊
Best wishes x
I notice a lot of cops kinda pinning blame on no leads on each other and leaving details out
Fincher’s casting for Zodiac was really on point
The whole part between 20:35 to 22:11 is weird.
20:41 - when discussing whether Darleen said anything immediately after the event, he talks about a "piece of material" from her bra fluttering. Sounds more like an attempt at nonsensical misdirection than a relevant detail.
21:57 - when responding to the accusation he knew Darleen personally, there's a correction in his speech from "her house" to "Darleen and her husband's" house. Perhaps a genuine attempt to be more informative and professional, but definitely an attempt to sound less personable. Unlike seconds later at 22:06 when his response was entirely personal as he smirks at the accusation of him being at the house, followed by the textbook "it wasn't me" at 22:09, and even laughs 22:10.
I think his point about the bra fluttering was that she was so full of holes, her bra fluttered when a breath was given to her, hence, "there was no talking to her".
@@VonFisch1 That makes sense
I think that is because Richard Hoffman was the Zodiac Killer. There is a TikToker who believes that to be the case.
@@thetruthstrangerthanfictio954yes that’s the whole point of his comment is to highlight his part lol
@@VonFisch1it's a freaking weird detail to remember and focus on. And disrespectful to her to talk about her like that. And refer to her as "the girl."
Hoffman gives off bad vibes.
This story with Zodiac really troubles me, this guy was intelligent, crazy, very mean and cunning. It sounds like two cops drove by him right after he killed the cab driver, talked to him according to Zodiac himself, and one of them got a glimpse of him, that’s pretty creepy, they could have got him, I’d hate to have to live with that. I’m sure Zodiac is dead now, hopefully, another case like Jack the Ripper, we will never know who did all of what was done 🤦♂️
Dennis there was no jack the ripper, it was at least 3 different people they know for fact so far.sorry America to burst your bubble but a cloaked man in a horse and carriage never stalked the east end. It was made up by papers at actual time just for sales. The English keep the mystery of jack the ripper for American films and tourists bucks. Did you all know Nessy is real? Honest ha ha come on up 50 dollars to look at an empty loch
Hello Glenn, interesting how these unsolved murder cases turn into these type of conversations, who most likely did it or was there more than one person who killed, you have to admit we never find out for sure. In my opinion and I’ve read a lot on Jack the Ripper it was one man and he never got caught, same with Zodiac killer 🤷♂️
@@dennisnorried524 Hiya, there never was a romantic vision of old jack. IV studied the case for years, out of the 9 victims he probably only killed 3. A guardsman killed Martha tabram, Michael kidney killed Elizabeth stride, Joseph Barnett admitted to then retracted killing of Mary Kelly and Jacob levy most probably killed Chapman and Nichols and involved with killing eddowes. Rumour of copycat surfaced at the time as well.you have to remember the press at the time made so much up the police didn't stand a chance. Hope you may look into it further. Thanks for reply
If you want a really good murder theory to get your mind into then let me know as there is a modern UK one still raging
Hello again Glenn, here we are in the year 2020 talking about Jack the Ripper, it’s kinda funny, tell you what, he was worse than the Zodiac, look what he did to the bodies, anyway I think he killed Nichols,Chapman,Stride,Eddowes and Kelly, all prostitutes. These other facts you have come from research you’ve done that I’m not aware of, your right about the papers back then, reminds me of times now, I do think he butchered the five I mentioned and unfortunately didn’t get caught ☹️
So basically, only Paul Stine saw his face clearly in the mirror. Maybe they even had a discussion, friendly chat before he was killed. I believe that he watched Zodiac movie in cinema, because I have my own suspect. Can you believe watching that movie in cinema and sitting near an old man who is the Zodiac? Creepy.
Who is your suspect?
But what's the point when guy got away with it. Did you watch movie Charlie Chan on Treasure Island? Take a look at it and you'll see that he completely took the identity and Mo from Dr. Zodiac (in the movie), it's like he wanted to implement it into the real life. Watch it and everything will be much more clear.
@@bigpunisher9366 officer hoffman
why him?
Hoffman was the killer. Lee Allen was an accomplish
8:57 Look at that Handwriting. Who wrote that evidence CARD? Look at the candy cane F. The desk from the library was signed with "rh". The survivor said Bates referred to the guy that followed him as "Richard". One of the officers is names Richard, and has the initials "RH".
I noticed that as well!
@Jimmy James A very random mixture of upper and lower case throughout the document...sadly indicative of the quality of the Police work on this case...
EvideNce
187.P.C. CAse No. V-25564
#9 ONe DRess beLoNgiNg To V-
Betty Lou JeNseN PuRple White
TRiM 5 Bullet holes iN BAck
ONe Bullet hoLe FRoNt of
dRess F-2795-9
Written by an 8-year old, perhaps?
@@Penguin_of_Death Yea, you would think that it would be written better than that. Just made me think how Zodiac himself could of done it. I have awful handwriting, but I wouldnt have wrote that evidence card like a serial killer.
Richard Hoffman??
😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
Brian seemed quite intelligent and very articulate even back in the day. Handsome boy. Shame his gf Cecilia did not make it and this has to haunt him for the rest of his life (and Michael's) :(
Actually, Celia wasn't his girlfriend, he was involved with another girl and the Detective that interviewed him in hospital said Brian was very concerned about when the news of the attack would be made public. Check out the film of him being interviewed in his hospital bed, very calm and relaxed...always struck me as bizarre.
@@desolation2row That's just his personality. No way the guy tied himself and stabbed himself. Also Cecilia was alive when police arrived and gave the same description as Brian did.
@ Mike M he was probably on some pain meds.and after the ordeal, tranquilizers like Valium.
@@desolation2rowYou do know there have been other people that have survived gunshot, and knife wounds. Have talked calmly well being interviewed, in order to give out the best description of the scenario. And suspect as they possibly could, yes some are agitated and irritable during police interviews after an attack. But then there others that handle the interviews calmly.
@@nutyyyyI know how could he stab himself in the back 😂
"Journalist :Why is it unknown that she saw his face.
Detective: I didn't report it. I didn't think it was important at the time."
1:00:18
Then he laughed. Why go through all the trouble of describing what he looked like if you are not Even going to report it all.
Just cops copping
Anybody else here after Richard Hoffman’s grandson Jeremy posted the TikTok series of why he thinks his grandpa is the zodiac killer?
me me me
Test the grandsons dna...there was some found from some of the killings
I’m here after seeing it on TikTok. That being said, I’ve heard the name Richard Hoffman thrown around before but the grandson of Hoffman presents some compelling details/evidence IMO.
@@annees9738the grandson would be carrying his father’s DNA. The grandson’s mother was Hoffman’s daughter. You’d have to look at the DNA in the grandson’s mother for Hoffman’s DNA. It maybe possible to also utilize MtDNA.
Darlene says his name is Richard. Richard is in the area, first on the scene.
"I was there, I left. I returned quickly, even though I left 30 mins prior.
Grandson might have something or just coincidence
1hr 28mins 30secs.. So has anyone actually checked who was living at that address???
great point
I AM
He also may have wanted to make it look as if he lived there.
😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
This Zodiac killer sounded amateur at best. A complete loser. Would have been definitely caught if he had committed the same criminal acts today.
But amateurs don’t pull off ostensibly ‘perfect’ murders. Law enforcement has been running in circles for more than 50 years and has lost this game.
If I were him, I'd be pissed at what you said. Good thing I'm ded.
I can barely understand what Michael says. Bless his heart. Lucky man.
Probably from being shot in the jaw! 😔
I’m here after watching the 2024 Documentary This is the Zodiac Speaking
WoW
Killing for the Joy of killing
New one really seals the deal
Certainly compelling, if the documentary is accurate of course. If the Seawater’s aren’t lying about Allen, it has to be him.
I want to addim in no way judging Michael Mageau and his life choices after this horrible ordeal. Wether or not he did become an addict or he's like the way he is because of being shot. I definitely would not want to go through that nor wish anybody else to go through that.
greatest docu ever
1.03.00 this doesnt make sense
If Cecilia Shephard had been stabbed multiple hours before and lost consciousness and all the rest of it then how the hell is she able to give a perfect long incredibly detailed description of the Zodiac to this officer? Including pointing her arms at places and accurately guesstimating distances and positions. Where was this interview held with her? Literally lying on the ground where she had been stabbed? What?
"Let me stand where he was and then look at me..."
Shouldn't she have been receiving medical attention not taking place in a long crime reconstruction? Wtf?
I didn't understand that at all...and to add insult to injury...this police officer doesn't even report that she described the suspect...what sense does any of this make???
Aye, I found that very fishy. There's lots that doesn't add up for me. I'm not accusing anybody of anything, just pointing out things that seem strange to me - like for example, Bryan Hartnell was stabbed 6 times in the back and yet there was no serious injury, so I assume the attacker managed to avoid all of his major organs. Perhaps he did just get lucky. In another documentary Cheney brings up 'The ABC Murders' by Agatha Christie. In the book the third of the four murders was of someone with the initials 'C.C.' - here, in the supposed third attack, the murder victim was named Cecilia, a name that is commonly abbreviated to 'CeeCee'. There are lots of other things I find curious about this case, far too many for a TH-cam comment.
Such a haunting story. Left a legacy for all the wrong reasons
poor cops,they had no funding or training.
Now they're over funded and woefully under trained 🤣
they didn’t have the technology plain and simple
@@whereseveryonegoing. lets faceit there were some abismal mistakes during the investigation
It was a mixture of poor training, out of date police technology, out of date police tactics
It's not even that they'd never experienced something like this before ( a serial killer hence why they were calling him a crazed killer at first ) this was the late 1960s they werent prepared at all to deal with this kind of stuff
Can you believe the cop who spoke to what in all probability was the zodiac after he shot the cab driver and then only mention now that he saw him about to enter an address of which he can recall to this day. Can anyone find out who lived at that address in 1969
No shit there is no way
😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊
I saw the film ZODIAC back when it came out and saw it again a few years later on video complete with some special features,one which creeped me out for some reason,a still of one of the killer's ciphers. I stared at it in silence and wondered what it really said, because no one has been able,apparently,to completely decipher it.
They solved it yesterday in case you don’t know
Have you decipherED my name?
If you don't find my name, you are doomED.
Was the cipher crackED ?
Really?
8:46 is absolutely terrifying. It looks like an evil nun in a white robe is behind the deceased victim and is holding her. The top left of the gurney looks like the evil nun’s face. I was falling asleep whilst watching this doc and that image woke me right up.
Thanks for the warning 😭
This Zodiac character is way overhyped. He killed teenagers and a cabbie. Hardly an overwhelming and unstoppable evil force of nature. He was a punk. The only things that makes it news are the letters. The cops couldn’t solve it so he comes off as a master criminal. His genius code was broken by a couple of amateurs. The unsolved code is likely just a hodgepodge of characters although it could be legit. You can produce an unbreakable code with a bit of research too. I used to be impressed by this whole Zodiac show, but it’s really just about an over-promoted loser who managed to get away with it.
John Jay actually dude 1/3 were coded and second evil is appropriate sssssooo
@Ray Ramirez why do you say there never was a zodiac killer?
I believe the killer was a cop!
@@omegahorizon82 Not likely. A police officer would not have made as many mistakes as the Zodiac did, the killer was probably a loner who had lived a hard life.
You're wrong my friend, someone has just broken his 2nd code and I can tell you, The Zodiac was a fukkin genius, with his cyphers at least!
Zodiac was a cop
That's one bad cop.
Military cop?
@@MistyGreggCarriger I don't know. I remember "maniac cop" was a cheesy b movie that was unintentionally hilarious. Maybe they mean like that.
It was Hoffman.
16:08 Isn't policeman Richard Hoffman who was on duty in plain clothing a serious suspect now? Darlene said that the person following her was named Richard. The initials RH was on the desk in Riverside where Bates was killed which match the handwriting in the letters. The killer used a flashlight much in the same way a cop would. 21:52 Graysmith claims that Hoffman was at Darlene's house at painting party. He denies this. He's obviously a suspect saying he's never seen her before, but he probably did know her as Darlene said the person following her that night was named Richard. 24:50 This is where Mike says the name "Richard". A man named Richard was jealous and following her around. Graysmith says that Richard Hoffman was at Darlene's painting party uninvited which he denies in this documentary. That makes Richard Hoffman the most likely suspect as he fits the mold of the killer who used a flashlight the way a cop uses one. The killer definitely knew Darlene. Right at 24:59. He knows the name of the killer.
Hoffman put himself at the scene of the crime 30 minutes before the call to police. Ballsy. There was almost no reason for him to admit that other than it fits with the Zodiac taunting law enforcement. He said no one was there. I wonder if they asked Mageau how long he and Darlene were there. If they were there for more than 30 minutes, isn't it case closed?
21:12 Nah buddy that smirk says it all. I also think its coincidence that the victim said the guy is called Richard. Right, RICHARD?
IVE BEEN SAYiNG THIS FOR YEARS
Me too. It's Hoffman.
Yeah. That’s great evidence. You people are morons.
How many mistakes did the investigators make in this case? So many. Toschi was a joke of a detective. Police officers goofed up left and right. Literally had him right in front of their faces. The whole Paul Stein slip up. No wonder why the Zodiac had help in getting by with it all. And Graysmith is the biggest crook of them all with his narrative of Allen being the Zodiac. Michael Butterfield sucks too. 1:16:25
what do you mean the zodiac killer has nothing to do with zodiac signs?
I like this kind of thinking. Keeps things complicated and unclear. Love it. Works for me.
Pretty crazy to think they essentially had him if not for the mistaken report of it being a black male instead of a white male
Racism to the rescue. Amirite?
It wasn't racism. Radios were hard to hear over.
@@aisthpaoitht Well obviously it wasn't racism. Racism doesn't exist. Amirite?
@@aisthpaoithtwhite and negro, which is the word that would have been used to describe a black person then, have a diff amount of syllables and doesnt sound similar… even on a shitty radio silly. Even if it was white vs black, Caucasian vs African American, etc. No two words to describe these 2 skin colors sounds similar enough. Easy to believe it was initially racist
Just imagine if the correct description had been given that night😭😭 don’t get how that happened. They could have had him.
Maybe the actual zodiac called to deceive the police, he knew there were police around. Where did the description of the killer being black come from? Was it from a residence or a pay phone near the murder scene of Paul Stine
@@christopherkimble8534from the child that called the police as the crime was in progress, they were across the street in the upper floors looking down at him (key word *child*)
@@christopherkimble8534sore 5 months later but it’s true
This case is solvable.
apart from a lot of luck but it might be that Majeau survived all these shots because of the multiple layers of clothing he had on...!!
The zodiac case has always been so interesting and spooky.
Two weeks ago i was at the reservoir lake early morning. I was swimming by the shore. Two boys started altercation with individual who was sitting by the water. When they called him out with explicit intention to beat him, he went down in the water, any time he did opposite movement they wanted him to do. They didn't get him to beat, so they just retreated left him unharmed. I believe collaboration with the perpetrator isn't good option. Most perpetrators have no sentiment towards their victims. You should unexpectedly change your position and run away, go into the water, climb the tree or something else. Also loud roar, will be very uncomfortable for any perpetrator. Talking cover in the bushes would be also very confusing for him.
you should have a CCW and be armed
Fouke saw the zodiac killer alright.
He stopped his killing after nearly being caught
I live in California and never knew that the first killing was in blue rock springs, which I have been many many times and even hiked up the house by the park.. scares me to even think about it.
The first killing was lake Hermon Rd. Dec 68. Blue rock springs was 69 July 5
Just saying
This case will always stick with me. Im bay area born and bred.
Me too.
Cecilia shepherd who was murdered at Lake Berryessa is the 1st cousin to my long time brother-in-law.... I have met that family I have met her mother.... I have been through Hermon road and I've been to the area at Lake Berryessa.... This story has intrigued me as much as anybody over the many years.... The modder got very lucky because there were a number of people who sighted him... .. The zodiac murderer guy is probably a lot like the BTK Dennis rader..... He is some on assuming unimpressive man who probably has a family and hes probably work at the same job.... Personally I think the man is still alive there's a very good chance he is.... Look at Dennis rader he was that communities version of the zodiac and when they cottam he was completely employed totally living his life...... I wouldn't be surprised of the zodiac murder or piece of ship is watching these videos and reading our comments
aS an old man let me tell yOu something. Our mere eXistence as humans on this planet is a recipe for crime. We will be able to deter it to some degrees but we can't escape it.Crime is built into our nature as humans and there is no way to rid ourselves of it. By the way aren't human beings the most dangerous animal of all ?
Cecilia was an absolute hero to fight so bravely to untie Bryan’s hands after such savage wounds were inflicted on her…🙏
You are light 💫✨ i love you 💎❤
Yup! I'm here for the same reason as everyone else
To find out the truth? Not me, I like it the way it is.
Zodiac was obviously an engineer. His writing is typical of an engineer, all the letters are leaning at 75 degree, and the 'zodiac-sign' is how engineers draw a circle, indicating the center of the circle.
Don Cheney
@@jordanpost2411 Lynne Cheney.
carpenter, like richard hoffman
@@cafe-lo-fi-e-direito Carpenters and Engineers? hmmm. Similar skills techniques? I dunno.
DICK CHENEY AND BUSH
This is just a theory of mine but I think it was 2-3 people working together. Maybe two split the killings and one wrote the letter. This explains the conflicting police sketches, etc. I don’t think it was a lone killer. It doesn’t add up.
I don’t see any of the killings linked at all. Only by a letter writer having fun. That’s why they can’t catch the killer.
I've always thought so too. Always the same letter writer. Look at how many were teams or a group. Hillside Strangler(s). Toolbox Killers. Freeway killer(s). Sunset Strip killer(s). Up until the 70's killing in pairs or more was unheard of. Spree killers are different ( Bonnie and Clyde) The Barker Boys...
Arthur Leigh Allan and Don Chaney could have been the pair just a hunch. Doesn’t Chaney say he licked the stamps on Allan’s mail for him? Did they ever get DNA from Don Chaney. Chaney gave the police info on ALA but nothing incriminating that I remember all circumstantial. Probably wrong but those two fuckers seemed like they were thick as thieves
@@deathbystereo-
The letter writer provides facts only the killer could know in the Lake Herman Road attack
Then the writer of the letter writes on the door at the Berryessa attack.
"The writing on Bryan Hartnell’s car door is unmistakably similar to the Zodiac’s handwriting, and Morrill himself concluded that the Zodiac was responsible for that message."
The letter writer then provides portions of Steins bloody shirt in his letter after the Stein attack.
Just because there are conflicting sketches doesn't mean there was a "team Zodiac" as the OP suggests; that is just adding complexity, especially since we know that eyewitness testimony is far from 100% reliable.
The series of attacks: East Area Rapist/Original night Stalker were linked by DNA however prior to that there was The Visalia Ransacker which some saw as being committed by EARONS, many however said it could not be the same person because the sketches didn't match, that the VR was "chubbier" than EARONS but we now know it was the same person.
A man from benicia that fishes at lake berryessa wasn't home. 2:28. Who was that guy I wonder.
Brilliant point . Could it Lee Allen .
Richard Hoffman, the cop in the video is the killer. He was the one patrolling the area, the gun that killed Darlene was a known Cop/military man’s gun “ browning’s. , the calls from the killer were all made outside the police station lol he wrote the word “until” incorrectly / with 2 L’s like the killer , all a coincidence ? OH Mike the victim said the person following them is a jealous man aka someone she was messing with , his name is RICHARD!! She was rumoured to be messing with 2 cops btw, the poem has the initials RH lol what else ?
Nailed it. And look at him here. He's reminiscing about the murder, not just telling what he saw. Also, why did he not try to help the victims? Why did he outline Mageau in chalk when he was still alive? Why didn't he try to help either of them?
Exactly and he’s super creepy in this interview. Doesn’t answer questions. Didn’t talk to victims. Chalk traced a victim not dead and didn’t offer aid. Only 6 minute window per the other cops with Hoffman there before and after
@@agnoses bingo. I mean, he was THERE in such a tiny window with the murder. And the murder occurred exactly in conformity with an undercover police vehicle pulling up behind a car.
I heard that it was two cops that worked together. That's probably why the case was never solved. Golden State Killer was a cop and that took forever to solve as well. No coincidence why.
Interviewer - “Why didn’t anyone know she’d seen his face?” Police officer - “I didn’t report it” then, laughs. Wtf!! Yea, it’s baffling why this case never got solved.
What would you do with information that she saw his face? She died before anyone else could do some sort of police sketch. There is the only possible conclusion - she saw his face and did not recognize him - so she wasnt familiar with him. But that doesnt help investigation in any way.
@@petrcejka2125yes it does.
@@aisthpaoitht
How?
1.) if she recognized him, she would tell it to Hartnell, so he would know she recognized him.... She didnt....
2.) she described the killer to police officer and sadly due to her state and then because she sadly died, she wasnt able to do further description (or help with police sketch) and he took description from her.....
What "new uknown" information would it bring? There is no "new" information which you can get from that information and which cannot be concluded from others.
@@petrcejka2125 you don't know what you don't know. That's why you write down things that even seem unimportant.
Anyone else watching stuff about the Zodiac killer now they think they've found their identity 👀
This is a master class on how to screw up a case. They should show this at the police academy as an example of terrible police work. Half the reason he got away with it was terrible police work.
Agreed. It's almost TOO mishandled. 🤔
He probably was a cop who worked on some of th cases of the people he killed. They are saying Richard hoffman the cop in this video is the zodiac killer. He was the first one to arrive on one of the murders.
At the time this happened I lived in Sacramento CA. I saw and remember the sketches of the Zodiac killer on the news in real time. I remember seeing him as if it were today. As much as I watch true crime, this was real for me. Lock up your doors, windows and children as we didn’t back then. Most of all, abide in Christ. His angels watched over me then and now. Only now I’m not stupid. I continually strive to exercise God’s wisdom. Laugh all you want but please be safe. And wise.
F*&K "Christ" and his hippy son. Where the Hell were they when this killer was murdering his "flock"? One thing you crazies say is right: He doth move in mysterious ways... outright fckuing baffling and nonsensical ways.
"HE" is a total crock of sh!t; you might as well pray to Mr. Toad, Superman, or KnightRider - fictional characters all - and one common thread is this: they are all as responsive and helpful as the Lamb of fckuing God.
Had you fallen into the Zodiacs clutches? That cross and bible would have been left splattered and coagulated with the warm blood of your butchered and rotting corpse.
Still: Praise the Lord, eh?
I love all of this that you said. It reminds me so much of what Patsy Ramsey said when here poor little girl got killed. And the GOD stuff is chef's kiss. Big fan of his.
“Eventually we’ll get him…”
So mike said he was over 6 feet tall and with a belly. Sound like ross Sullivan to me
Definitely could be
Mike also said alot of other things that were contradictory
Justin Felton mike was a crackhead
@@4gegtyreeyuyeddffvyt that makes sence, he looks and sounds high in this documentary
Mike knew the killer. I’m sure of it. Something never sat right with him imo.
21:36 "You knew her?", "I never lied eyes on her." HUHHHH?🤨
100% a lie!!!
Lake Herman Road is one of those roads that you can put your car into neutral, and it will start to roll backwards. It's eerie, adds to the horror of all this terrible stuff.
The 911 dispatcher reminds me of a pelican
She’d be great in one of those Dreamworks movies
People in comment section better at lining out suspects with evidence than the actual cops involved with the case.
So I watched this year's ago but just noticed that the dispatcher stated that the first call was from a young woman saying that someone was shooting at some kids which means there is a witness
Such an interesting case. Too bad it probably will never be solved.
One can only hope. That it won't be solved.
It was Richard Lee Hoffman
No he was not american Because nineth. Extreamally. Is two main evidence that he spoke other language
@@TworiverRiverthere’s evidence confirming it’s Richard
This is the zodiac speaking theory’s will not unlock the gate and that gate will not have my identity use the letters... Zodiac
So Cecilia Shepard at the lake died because police kept questioning her instead of rushing her to the hospital or at least telling her not to talk now. She could have survived.
She was mortally wounded it was important to get as much info from her as possible
She wouldn’t of been able to survive her wounds and moving her would of hastened her death
How about the fisherman who clearly heard them, stopped their motor, and then decided to kept going? They could have been saved but this person just left them there.
She died because she was stabbed to death. And the fisherman saved them both by going to get help instead being chatty Cathy's asking what's wrong.
It was Arthur Leigh Allen
100% after I seen the new Netflix documentary. The testimony and evidence is undeniable
@@AlexanderTheGreat1000 it was never was Allen!
Michael Mageau's account here conflicts with what is known as fact. Shortly after he and Darlene Ferrin were shot (estimated to be 12:10am) a car arrived with three teenagers who discovered the scene and quickly left to raise the alarm. The timeline was confirmed by a caretaker who heard the killers car leave the car park at high speed. He estimated that the time was 12:10am. The teenagers arrived at the car park a few minutes later and discovered the scene - they went for help and the police arrived at the car park at 12:20am. So the care taker hears the car leave at 12:10 - The teenagers arrive a few minutes later and discover the crime scene and the police arrive at Approx 12:20am. - Michael couldn't have been laying there for hours as he claims. I'm sure it may have felt like hours though..
It obviously felt like hours. The kid's come up and ask if he's okay then leave him there, just like he said. They went to get help but he doesn't remember that. Police come ask him if he's okay while waiting for the ambulance that's all true. Mike Mageau says the killer drove away quietly, the killer said he drove away quietly, I believe their accounts. They were there.
Has anyone done voice analysis comparing the known recording of the Zodiac with samples from suspects?
There aren't any known recordings, his calls to the police weren't recorded and the guy who called the TV wasn't the Zodiac. Turned out to be a patient at a hospital.
His call to police was recorded
@@awidevarietyofthingsNope. Google it, they weren't.
1:06:14 pardon me? You didn’t think it was important that one of the victims, who died shortly thereafter, saw the perpetrator’s face?! 🤔 that is so strange, wtf?
And with that laugh afterward, how could that not be important and pertinent information. An actual physical description of the man that killed this woman and it goes unreported, fucking unbelievable
Hearing this story just imagining it is absolutely terrifying..every single little noise is spooking me lol
Why would the Zodiac wear a mask if he was going to kill his victims? In case someone other than his victims witnessed the murder.
Maybe he couldn’t bring himself to have a face to face/eye contact with people he was going to kill? Remove all emotion from the moment kinda thing, or could even be it helped him feel like he became something or somebody else in order to carry out the crimes
@@LuxioV2 Perhaps. But it could also could also be so that the murderer wanted to hide his face, and the Lake Berryessa attack was the only case where the Zodiac killer struck in daylight. Another possibility is that the murderer was hoping to confuse or scare the victims with that hood. Who knows?
I believe it's because it would be soaked with blood spatter, so he could remove it and bag it and walk away without anyone noticing he had blood on him.
@@kelseymariel2127 Good point
Maybe it was because Michael Mageau survived Zodiac’s attack before he went to Lake berryessa? He was being more careful this time so he wore a mask in case one of the victims would survive or maybe it was because it happened in daylight and that a few ppl would go there so he made sure he couldn’t be identified
Was this a mini series or something.. they left out when he tried to kill that lady. Plus what happened afterwards
So Richard Hoffman could really be the guy
It's interesting to see Richard Hoffman in this documentary after the accusations of his guilt put forward by his grandson.
I do believe the second case case had motive. Investigate the young woman’s husband and people he knew. Talk to people that worked at the restaurant. I don’t believe the case will be solved with odd crazy theories. Old fashion detective work. Find the motive, finds whom is responsible. Michael’s Mageau’s gf obviously knew the killer. For what it’s worth, that’s where the investigation should begin.
This sounds like good strong investigative thinking. I like it. I would feel very comfortable with you on the case.