The use of club-type weapons seems to have derived from a misinterpretation of the depiction of Bishop Odo of Bayeux Tapestry at the Battle of Hastings in 1066. The Bishop (who was the half-brother of William, Duke of Normandy) was a proper fighting bishop (there were many in the Middle Ages) and such Clerics happily used swords and other sharp weapons. Odo is depicted in the Tapestry holding what looks like a club, but is in fact a stick which he uses to guide the direction of troops moving into battle. These devices were common for generals on a medieval battlefield and are linked to the ceremonial maces that have been part of European royal regalia since medieval times. A mace of office was used as part of King Charles' Coronation Ceremony recently. Thanks for illuminating these Sorcerer-Priests Captain! I love your channel.
We also know the rod Odo wields is a symbol of authority and not an illustration of his actual armament--because William himself wields a similar rod on a neighbouring panel of the Tapestry! Another inspiration of Gygax's for the cleric is allegedly Bishop Turpin (AKA Tilpin), a semi-legendary 8th century religious leader who appears as one of the Twelve Peers of Charlemagne (AKA paladins) in the Song of Roland. Turpin wields a sword in the Song, but his sword's name is "Almace", possibly Old German for "Almighty", and I've often wondered if Gygax or one of the Victorian historians he was reading mistook Almace for an actual mace.
Never thought of Sorcerer priests replacing clerics for pulp fantasy. That’s a super important distinction and makes tons of sense. Conan certainly ran into plenty of them. I'm wondering if normal clerics are better for players, and sorcerer priests are better for DMs; that question requires more thought.
I highly recommend you give it a try IF you and your group prefer that style of play. Its not for everyone, but it definitely adds to the flavor of a gritty, pulp fantasy setting IMHO.
The Warlock class in the new Swords & Wizardry Book of Options is basically this. d6 HD, can use any weapon (but no armor), and has a specialized spell list that combines elements of the magic-user and cleric ones, but with the twist that each spell has a Law, Neutrality, and Chaos variation tailored to the alignment of the Warlock and whatever supernatural being they serve.
The bit about Clerics not getting their power _from_ the gods, but rather seeking insight from them, is kind of how I conceptualize Clerics. Clerical magic, much like Druidic magic, is rooted in a holistic understanding of transcendental truths about the world and the cosmos. In many ways, they're like Wizards, except their knowledge is less technical (Intelligence) and more insightful (Wisdom). Divine beings can grant this insight (and may do so deliberately), but this isn't required. They may instead stand as an example, that inspires understanding of these truths in the would-be Cleric. These truths may also come from contemplating/meditating on natural phenomenon, parables, the lives of saints/martyrs, or the writings of sages or theologians. As such, even non-deities can teach Clerical insights. Whether that's an angel, demon, or other "outsider", or just a hag, mummy, or random monster. The awe of witnessing a shambling horror deep beneath the earth can be enough to propel a person to such insight. Which in turn leads to lots of cults worshiping and meditating upon the truths embodied by such monsters. Led by charismatic priests with varying levels of insight and the ability to leverage that into a following. Lower level Cleric spells represent "low-hanging fruit" in terms of the applications of transcendental truths. By no means easy for the laymen to grasp, but not outside a person's reach if given proper time or education to grasp the lower teachings. The greater the truths, the wiser and more versed in such teachings a person must become to acquire them. So hedge priests and local clergy might have some divine magic, while truly world-shaping ones are the province of those dedicated to meditating on higher truths.
Huge fan of this idea. I'd be interested in trying this as a heroic character. One could argue that's all the Cleric is, but this would be like a "John Dee talking with angels" sort of character - I love the idea of a sorcerer-priest tapping into something like the Sefirot, or going before the throne of God like Enoch.
A fun realization has been that the opponent casters don't need to follow the rules, even when using a Vancian system. So yes, the shamans, chaos priests, and sorcerers that my parties encounter will usually be packing spells from the different disciplines, as well as alternate spell lists. My primary campaign belligerents take advantage of Gavin Norman's 'Vivimancer' class and its various flesh-bending spells, hence most of the mooks the PCs encounter are mutants of one sort or another.
Also reminded me of Akiro from Conan the Barbarian, as well. Valeria (over Conan's dead body): He said you were a wizard. Do the gods owe you any favors? Akiro: **grunts an affirmative**
I've been kind of exploring the concept of Clerics not following ONE god, but knowing about where Gods are and how to use/beseech/interact with them. So, imagine a world where there ARE huge, mysterious, outsider Gods like you mention, but ALSO, lots of little, minor guys that actually interact with the world. There might be one for a river or a lake or a forest, etc. A Cleric has knowledge as to where they are and how to appease them and how to ask them for help. They might talk to people and have favorites, just like any normal person, but aren't "defeatable", at least in their own "home", but could be killed or made dormant by something like their river drying up or their forest getting cut down or burned down or something. I like that they're more interactable and more "of the world" but still allow the players to have interactions with divine powers of some sort. I like the thought of having lots of gods all over the place that all do their thing.
@HappyFunNorm You should consider going back and checking out some of the old pre-faction war planescape stuff, the godsmen faction likely has something or other worth mining. @@Arnsteel634 Oooh that sounds very cool, I had an idea a while back for a late bronze/very early iron age game set in Arthurian Britain.
Something like this suits a polytheistic setting way more than the default henotheism of standard D&D. While some real world cultures did have religious specialists devoted to a single deity at the expense of all others, it was just as common for such individuals to conduct rituals associated with several different gods depending on need or appropriateness.
During 2nd edition, I embraced the Speciality Priest idea and eliminated all general clerics. Each Priest was devoted to their deity or power and thus had unique abilities and equipment rules. In addition, I did something similar by eliminating the Vancian memorization. The rational was that you pray or call for aid and this adjusts to the situation. Calling on a power did not jibe with memorization. For my part, this helped me with a sorcerer priest archtype as Gods of Death had necromatic priests or allegiances with the lower powers and so on. Great topic!
Still play 2E and created a Fish Goddess for Halruaa and the Great Sea region. She's a former Halruaa wizard turned Demi-Goddess, and her FIsh-Priestesses are all Wizard-Priests, who don't use Vancian magic system. They use spell points as Free Magick, and roll Spellcraft checks with bonuses or penalties, and get fatigued.
Similarly, I regard the limit of spells per day as a product of exertion rather than the wiping of memory. And from 2nd edition I took the notion of differences between clerics according to deity (swords and axes suddenly become cool for the more martial of churches). My Death personified is different however - it is a neutral deity of mortality and eternal sleep. Its clerics hate necromancy because it is a twisting of true death. :)
Well in Hyperborea i can simply say that instead of learning 3 Cleric Spells each level up they can learn instead 1 Cleric Spell and one 1 Magician or Necromancer Spell so we can have Sorcerer-Clerics and Sorcerer-Priests and maybe Sorcerer-Paladins and Sorcerer-Purloneirs. i like this approach a lot and makes it a little more Weird Pulpy.
Man, for some reason your videos give me a warm, nostalgic feeling. Obviously your DJ experience gives your voice that edge, but great topics too. Love from the United Kingdom 🇬🇧
Now this is great. I am a huge fan of sword and sorcery, and the Cleric class has never fit those settings. The most I've seen in the past is instead of the Cleric class, allowing Magic-Users to get cleric spells in some fashion, or perhaps (my own idea although not original) to let them choose at character creation if they are a "priest" (i.e. cleric spells) or a "sorcerer" (i.e. magic user spells). Potentially allowing them swords and daggers, as you do tend to see pulp sorcerers using swords if they ever actually fight in melee.
In all my factions, good and evil, i have sorcerer-priests, warlock-priests, wizard priests, as well as clerics. A priest serves the church, and/or the people of their city, they don't always have to draw on the same power-source or that one power-source in the same way. Not every pastor had to be able to doff medium armor or need to know how to use a mace. Heck by the time we were done with session 3, the Barbarian joined the priesthood of the nurturing rain. His sermons were hilarious.
This sounds much more flavourful for a Sword and Sorcery world! I'll have to keep note of that. In my games, clerics are rare individuals who're granted favour by the god they worship, which distinguishes them from others in the priesthood (all clerics are priests, but not all priests are clerics). As such, their powers are a gift to be used as an agent of that god to further their goals or maintain a certain status quo. Should they falter in their task, like giving into temptation or corruption, they straight up lose access to their power. Other spellcasters have to deal with a magical mishap table, such as yours, but clerics ignore that since their deity is on their side, up until they're not. To regain their powers, they must redeem themselves in some manner willingly, such as going on a quest, performing an atonement ritual or some other task the GM may find appropriate.
Tbh the starting premise of this video is true about old DnD clerics. Later down the line DnD and adjacent systems ( *cough* Pathfinder *cough* ) expanded cleric into a very versatile class where you can be a true holy man of faith (3.5 cloistered cleric, ecclesitheurge of Pathfinder), a better fighter than fighter (War domain cleric), better barbarian than barbarian (pathfinder cleric of Gorum) and even a ghetto wizard (various knowledge and magic domains which gave you access to some distinctly wizard spells.) Oh, and that meme about blunt weapon is again no longer true, since 3.5 clerics can wield whatever they want and in Pathfinder clerics of Sarenrae can inflict nonlethal damage with scimitars (their holy weapon) and with all fire spells.
Love this concept of the Ecclesiastical Sorcerer. Someone (if forget who) made a Hyborean Age set of house rules based on 0e D&D and used a similar concept.
Wow! thanks for the tip and the kind words! I know EXACTLY who you're talking about. Its Jason Vey's OD&D supplement 'Age of Conan' which I adore, and is absolutely the inspiration for my modifications. :)
100%! I never liked Clerics in D&D. Always felt anachronistic and out of place to me, to say nothing of how they are typically used by players- more of a hit point vending machine than any sort of religious or mystical person. DCC RPG was the first time I saw a game treat a Cleric seriously, and included rules to make sure the players did as well- or at least they treat the dice seriously, which is as close as I ever got. Sorcerer Priests make absolute sense in S&S. Particularly in Conan/Hyborean based setting, which has been my primary exposure to the genre. I will 100% develop this for some of my own games. Thank you!
I like mixing and matching flavor from various classes to create more unique characters and an [insert class here] who fancies themselves a cleric is a favorite of mine, though I've only managed to play one so far. That character was a 5e artificer. It was a mindflayer party campaign so I had fleshy constructs and my character worshipped Thoon. Every creation was a 'great work crafted in their vision!'
I've been playing D&D since 1980 and for most of that time I've disliked the Vancian magic system. It's interesting in Vance's books but what works in a story isn't necessarily good in a game. In D&D it always felt like a simplistic way to resource limit magic users; resource limitation is needed (I hate 5e's endless cantrips) but I feel like there should be a better way. I love the idea of rolling to cast spells. It's a natural use of the d20 mechanic and allows for interesting things like critical successes and failures. I'm uncertain about unlimited casting though because of the whole issue of resource limits. In principle I love DCC's method for clerics of increasing the auto failure number each time a spell is failed but I haven't played with it to see how it works in practice.
Slightly confused on the Spell Casting Roll equation used: 1d20 + INT Modifier + CA Level. Does "CA Level" refer to the level of spell being cast, or the current level of the character casting the spell? Always felt like the Cleric class was a bit of an overcomplicated mish mash when it came to 5E, too many cooks in the kitchen with its development. Going back to it's pulp roots was a great idea, love this version and how it can be expanded to any magic-user super easily (especially for homebrew rulesets). The fact it was based around one of my favorite indie RPG rulesets Deathbringer is also a huge plus.
In the Hyperborea RPG CA = Caster Ability which is the same as the Character's Level. So a 1st level caster with a +5 int would add +6 to their roll. If it is in their specialty school they would then get +8.
I like being a wizard. I like magic to work and be effective. If I want magic to corrupt me, blow up in my face, and drive me crazy, I'll play Call of Ctuthlu. I do not understand the grimdark need to constantly hinder casters. And, by all means, keep the character levels low, so the casters die easily and never get access to the really cools spells😢
Cool idea. My one and only take at running a more pulp fantasy game used the idea that clerical magic was indeed granted by the gods, but only the truly faithful could actually cast clerical spells. There were a lot of priests, but few clerics (i.e. divine spellcasters). In addition, because there were so many fewer faithful people of good alignment, their divine casting was more powerful than those of other alignments. This was all in a very low magic setting to encourage most players to roll martial classes and thus keep wizards, sorcerers, and clerics quite rare and feel more unique and special. Thanks for the video.
How timely. I am creating a sword and sorcery game right now, that has grown out of long campaign that started with Ironsworn, went to Swords of the Serpentine, then onto Stonetop, went to a homebrew that "failed" and lastly Moediphius's 2d20 Conan. Somehow, all these game systems and settings merged into one cohesive campaign world. Now, my game in progress is NOT aimed at replicating that campaign world, but using it as a framework to discuss the rules. But there was something that came about in play at the table that I really liked in it's implications for magic, gods and the like. Something that impact the game design, not just the campaign setting. In our campaign, the gods are real. The gods care. Which is a very odd place to start for a Sword and Sorcery vibe. But it works. Because the Gods have a dilemma. They get their power from the worship and rising of mankind, right? But that same human spirit that sustains the Gods, sends out a "psychic beacon" and there are extradimensional horrors from beyond the cosmos that want to eat the planet and the Gods themselves. The Gods need to curate and raise humanity up slowly as they hide the planet and protect the occasional chaos/dimensional incursion. They have let entire empires fall because "they shown too brightly". Right now, we are in a period of upswing, coming out of a post apocalyptic epoch started some 800 years ago due to humans getting out of control, angel types called the Makers rebelling, and disease and war ravaging the continent. Humanity, mostly on the coasts, is doing well again. There are plenty of resources to be had, although, must be wrested away from monsters that roam and the natural dangers of the natural world. So, mostly city-states, very few nations. We have the Chosen. A few individuals who are granted abilities by the Gods, usually 1 God per person. Their powers do come from the Gods, unlike your game (which I think your Sorcerer-Priests are totally cool! This is not a refutiation, but a different side of the same coin.). But the Gods can be busy, distracted and the more one uses the power, the more they Change. Eventually the Change is so great that they "ascend" up to the God dimensions so they can help in the battle to shield and fight against the Cosmic Horrors from Beyond. Then we have Shamans and Druids who tap into the "natural" spirits for their powers. Lastly we have Sorcerers who quite resemble the ones you described. So we have this "triangle of mystics", mystics being the world's generic term for anyone with powers beyond human scope. Spirit magic and Sorcery (extradimensional, reality bending magic) are opposed. Divine magic sits in between. That, we found, creates a real fun and fertile tension. And like I said, oddly having a renaissance setting and Gods involved, which is the total opposite of REH nations everywhere and Crom doesn't give a damn, still feels very, very Swords and Sorcery. Just a thought. LIked your video very much. I suscribed and hit that like button too.
I like this idea! Pure, "normal" clerics would still be welcome in my games; this is largely just a matter of roleplaying and the game world's background (the way I do it, is that most religion adherents are just ordinary folks with faith; only a very few are able to pray for miracles, i.e. use cleric spells) so I feel that both clerics and these sorcerer priests could be used in the same campaign.
1e Low-Fantasy Gaming magic user is similar to this. You can choose whether you get your magic from priestly orders or demonic influence. Though you still have prepared spells you still role under luck to see if you can succeed from a bad to horrible effect.
Cap - Awesome video and topic. In my current 1/2e campaign I have introduced wizard- sorcerer / priests (as sufis- there’s an Arabian / Middle Eastern flavor) that serve as mystics who study meta-physics and the nature of divine and arcane magic. Some are good, some are neutral and still others are evil and similar to what you’ve described here as twisted abominations cursed and “blessed” for their forbidden delving. I also employ a somewhat open mechanic for Magic users, clerics and sufis to perform powerful ritualistic magic that far outstrips their normal Vancian daily allotment, with it being heavily reliant on location (intersection of ley lines, consecrated / desecrated places), special rituals, rare /exotic or even unique components, and timing (season or astronomical alignment or syzygy). I love the flavor of the Lovecraftian gods with the sword and sorcery of Conan.
What you describe sounds VERY similar to the magic and ritual system in Outcast Silver Raiders. The boxed set may be the best TTRPG product I have ever purchased.
You have me intrigued, Captcorajus. I have only ever played two sessions of tabletop rpg in my life. The same campaign. I have played plenty of rpg video games in my life. And I have read booklets from rpg games-just up to now not cover to cover. At least I don't remember any booklets I might have read cover to cover. With all this being said. Considering my limited tabletop rpg experience in life. I'm interested in reading the comments for this video and seeing how everyone else feels about what you say about clerics. As of now I don't have enough of my own experience to agree or disagree with your thoughts in this video. I'm just curious how everyone else feels. In time though-I can't make any promises when I'll get around to reading this video's comments. But I will be fun when I do so. Thanks for the dive into this subject, Captain.
I run Dungeon Crawl Classics and use the World of Xoth setting for Sword and Sorcery. I just removed the lay on hands ability ( how clerics heal in DCC) and renamed the class to Priest. I use the Lankhmar boxed set for Luck healing and Fleeting Luck. Carousing is how you regain Luck back and bam I got a real Sword and Sorcery campaign going!
First off, I really dig this idea, but expand it to mix and match depending on the system caster spell lists, like tossing druid and illusionist into the mix. As for where clerics come form, well it's not in Appendix N directly, but these guys were also fans of medieval history and must certainly have read the Song of Roland and or studied history. Charlemagne's Paladins included Archbishop of Reims, Tilpin who wielded the sword Almace. Drawing from this history as well, you kind of see why they limited clerics to blunt weapons, not that it would not be cool, but rather why play a fighter when you could also wield holy magic? Cloth priests would not do, as you would have two softies dungeon crawling. Smaller hit die than a fighter later on, but full armor and you get the modern cleric. Someone must have been inspired by Roland and you get the modern paladin. The straight up cloth priest, the "man of the cloth", "faith is my shield", is still missing from every edition of D&D, and most retro clones.
I'm on the fence about some of these changes. I think this might be an interesting change to apply to chaotic cleric and perhaps add some others to neutral clerics to make them all feel different but as for all clerics especially lawful I don't think it fully "fits".
If you wanna go with Knave 2e's charisma & deity favors as well as the Inteligence use. As Charisma gets you favors & influence from a patron, be it a god or what not, and Int alloes for magic use.
Interesting video. I'm about to start a new game using the Barbarians of Lemuria Hack (BOL meets OSR) to do a more sword & sorcery style bent on the standard D&D adventure, so this video was good food for thought. I'm also a big fan of Professor Dungeon Master's Deathbringer and Hyperborea. Keep up the good videos 👍
Well, certainly that's one way to play D&D and if that's how you have fun, don't let me dissuade you. However, I don't play it that way. My setting has a gritty, sword and sorcery/ Lovecraftian influence. The gods aren't 'uncaring' they are indifferent. They are beings of immense power with goals and ideas of their own and morals are insignificant. Several of them, Kthulhu, for example (Hyperborea spelling) might inadvertently wake up and destroy everything Existential dread is part of the setting. In this setting, the typical D&D cleric is out of place. Which is the entire reason for the video. :)
I'm not writing a campaign but a novel (though it is pretty much trying to answer the question of what happens centuries after the heroic adventuring party has already defeated the big bad primordial evil), but I definitely prefer the idea of actual divine magic being both rare and exceedingly powerful. It's a dang god, after all! I like some of the ideas in Pathfinder's Oracles where the divine insight is so overwhelming that the casters are cursed because of it.
I love Clerics and Divine Magic. They're my favorite Class. Divine Magic is just so useful. Unfortunately, they just don't really work in a pulp fantasy setting outside of a few very specific circumstances.
I think they can, I just think that you need to change how you look at the god's for clerical magic to fit into pulp, think less Catholics but with real magic(though that could be terrifying depending on what century) and more the cult of Haustor(less the Chamber's version and more Derleth's).
Good stuff! I just finished rereading all of the elric series and your take rings true Group playing AD&D 1st edition and never could get into Clerics. Love magic users but also was never happy with the magic system. Unfortunately these days I mostly play 5e because that's what my nephew is into. But over time I slowly introduced Homebrew Magic stuff that brought it more in line with DCC or what you're thinking. I eventually codified it and published it in a small book called Death Fingers Guide to Dangerous Magic.
I've going to run Tales From The Fallen Empire from Chapter 13 Press For Use with DCC RPG. It can easily be converted to 3.5 or 2E/2.5. This would also work well for Hyperborea
Not entirely sure about this idea. In my own campaign clerical "magic" and dark pacts are quite different from what a mage does. This goes beyond a "give a man a fish vs teaching a man to fish" thing. Having followers and sacrifices equals additional power for small "g" gods and there are plenty of spirits and demons who want to "climb the ladder". In short, lesser powers are farming for likes from the mortal plane with worship and souls serving as building blocks of power. The Divine and the Diabolic however are something far beyond that.
I worked around with clerics being in the same division as nowadays 5e warlocks; gods are simply a hyped "patron", just like witches related to their hellish patrons.
@@captcorajus I met that concept in Palladium RPG 1e, were witches and warlocks (elemental magic casters) were taken as a mix between clerics and magic users in the sense they do not understand what and how magic works unlike true magicians. On Palladium RPG 2e the concept was worked a little more, but that's not my preferred edition.
This video was filled with great insights, awesome ideas I plan on stealing for my own game. I love the Sorceror Priest idea and now can't shake it. Any thoughts on using Warlocks with their patrons in some similar role?
If you look at 7:19 I listed all the different types of spell casters in my setting and then the additional 'special abilities' they get because of their specialization. Sorcerers all work essentially the same, its the spell lists and the special abilities that make them distinctive. Using this system there are no spell slots, you can just cast the spell as long as you make the spell roll.... so, in place of 'spell slots' you could say those numbers of spells per day you can make the roll with 'advantage' reflecting the extra power from the warlocks patron. So 1 spell at level one, 2 spells a day from levels 2 to 10, 3 spells per day from levels 11 to 16, etc.
In SJG’s The Fantasy Trip it is a points-based system & there are skills like Priest and then Theologian, and for healing there’s a skill called Physicker for healing injury. However, all the spells are the same. SJ I guess eschewed concepts of Gods and separate spells for “clerical” character builds. It’s kind of annoying to work around. But the Sorcerer Priest concept def fits. It should be noted that in Homer’s The Iliad human characters encounter Gods like Aphrodite and Ares on the battlefield and wound them. So there is some root to D&D “gods” being otherworldly but able to be fought by humans. Also Conan is always fighting real-world “Gods” in the stories and comics. Capt’N, why not review the old school The Fantasy Trip system and its 2019 Legacy edition? There’s a lot of support material to review. Also the Dungeon Fantasy “powered by GURPS” line. Just a thought for us fans. Did you ever play these games?
So historical rather than pulp but in the Russian occult beliefs of the middle ages as well as in the German grimoiric tradition there was this idea that the book it's self not just the knowledge contained within the book was magic and that it needed to be charged by being placed under an alter and left there while a sermon was held. It was a fusion of the older forms of talisman magic with the the occult underbelly of the early eastern orthodox church(which then spread west). I know the German version had a lot more influence from the middle eastern, and middle eastern derived Greek and Latin sources.
The original D&D cleric feels very much like a hodgepodge of ideas about medieval Templars, vampire hunters and biblical stories. (FWIW I'm convinced that the blunt weapon limitation was simply a game balance thing where clerics could be decent fighters but couldn't use magic swords, which were pretty much the only magic items around.) I'm open to the idea of the radical change suggested here to make it fit pulp style fantasy better. That said, I like the idea of divine influence and granted powers. I often imagine a fantasy world where there are multiple deities who are actively vying for power and influence among mortals rather than indifferent, far-off powers. So maybe some balance between the original concept and sorcerer priests would be better in my kind of game world.
Note, that divine influence and granted powers are not gone using this system. If a priest wants a boon its going to require an involved ritual/ sacrifice/ both. The suggestion here is 'daily granted powers' are replaced with actual magical study and research like traditional M-Us
D&D was not originally a Sword and Sorcery setting; at least not for me. For me, it was more about King Arthur, Amadis of Gaul and stories like that. Later on, they added sword and sorcery elements like the barbarian and assassins and the like. For the original setting, a decidedly Western European flavor was granted the default, with the obvious parallel with the cleric to the various knightly orders. Frankly, if any change would be made, I would rather eliminate the cleric in favor of the paladin. On the other hand, I do agree with you regarding sword and sorcery settings and the elimination of the cleric. But I would never say that D&D was from the beginning a sword and sorcery themed game. There's just way too much evidence against that thought.
@@captcorajus Pulp is a VERY broad category! Nobody played the game back in the day as a "sword and sorcery" style game. It was all about knights (fighters), clerics and Merlin types killing bad guys, taking their loot and building castles! People forget that the "end game" was Domain Level play. But I get it, you want to play in a sort of amoral universe without any hierarchical structure or morals to it. I get it. Been there, done that. You can make the game that way if you want, but don't go around telling people that the game was like that from the beginning, when that simply is not true.
@@flashgorgon5516 Dude.... I don't have to, the CREATORS OF THE GAME did. Hate to break it to you. Pulp Fantasy was part of the game from the beginning. The very first TSR published module was "Temple of the Frog" about a guy from another planet with laser guns crash landing on a primative planet and starting his own cult to take over the world. The game's magic system comes from a popular Pulp Fantasy series, the Dying Earth. Have a good day.
@@captcorajus The cleric was one of the four basic classes; the barbarian was not. The game was inspired by pulp, but again, pulp is a very broad category! You know that, right? I mean, ever heard of Sam Spade?
the best magic system I've encountered is Shadowrun where the spell casters can keep running spells as long as they made their own saving throws or they got worn out and needed to rest. The 1st ed system was kind of a botch because wizards essentially had ONE spell and then they became a sub par person in a wool robe.
These are just Arcanists from pathfinder 1e. Sorcerers who need int as well as charisma, prpare their spells, spontaneous cast etc. And your casting check is just giving every enemy Spell Resistance, which you contest to see if you can overcome it. My point being, maybe you should check out the Arcanist in more depth to get some inspiration for your game.
I have never liked Vancian magic. I had no idea where the concept came from until fairly recently. Even knowing the roots of the system, it just seems hokey to me. That said, I've never ventured away from it. I'm currently running OSE and use the magic system RAW, but I don't describe it as memorization. Clerics pray and magic users prepare their magic, but the spell slots are just an abstraction.
The distinction between mages and clerics was always a bit forced. An academic would call them all something like 'magico-religious experts'. In human history the religious practices of foreigners have often been interpreted as magic. Elites grant the status of religion to those beliefs they approve of and stigmatize as magic those beliefs they oppose. Or sometimes magic is the remnant of a long-neglected old religion tolerated as an occult supplement to dominant practices (consider how many theists still consult horoscopes). But having just given grounds for combining these groupings I now want to say I rather like the distinction. Possibly I only say that from decades of gaming habit but I find it works well as long as your setting can justify it. Deities only give small portions of supernatural power to clerics specifically so that they can sit back and let mortals take care of things for themselves. Atheists can still tap into the paranormal as mages. Arguments can erupt over exactly how the universe works and what came first (and the GM never need answer those questions). In my own home-brew I have blended some aspects of the two however. Both can draw from the same esoteric skills list. Both can cast divination (which in its very name is divine) but mages call it prognostication. And I shifted abjuration from mages to clerics. One more thing - if you keep the mage-cleric distinction then the 'witch or warlock' category of mages that draw on the power of demons just confuses matters. But maybe that is pretty much what you are describing with your sorcerer-priests. :)
Honestly, I think the frequently maligned Vancian system has its perks. In particular, it would make sense that some rituals can have their effects “bottled” to unleash later. It is in this way, I think the Vancian system could be useful to supplement other forms of casting. Similarly, sorceror-priests are inappropriate (atleast in the default) when dealing with Mitra. I would imagine that at minimum Mitrean priests would have significantly lower probabilities of corruption. So I am not sure the total elimination of clerics. Lastly, Vancian magic is possibly real. I am not going to claim expertise here, rather I wish to speculate. Reservoir computing, a fairly obscure but powerful technology, is increasingly becoming integrated into LLMs (think chatGPT). The idea is to use a chaotic black box in place of several layers of a traditional LLM. This is using chaos, itself, to do computation, which in my mind “is” magic. I do not mean that there are any per se nonphysical interactions here, but that what was called sorcery by the ancients is indistinguishable from primitive reservoir computers with humans acting as the input/output layer and learning layer. To illustrate the point, one could hypothetically take a crystal ball with chaotic deformations and treat that as a reservoir. One could translate some prompt about the outcome of a chaotic time series system (like the weather, as an example) into an input vector to then get transformed mentally by the person projecting the vector onto the surface of the crystal. The vector would transform into an end state which could then be modified with a chart into a final output vector which is then interpreted as the answer to the desired question. The base elements of this are very real. A bowl of water was used to demonstrate this kind of computation, and reservoir computers have already been found to be very good at predicting chaotic systems (eerily good). This is, in my mind, definitionally divination magic. Now, once you can predict the future of a system, you have the possibility of changing it. One could, hypothetically (very speculatively here), make changes at a distance through a chaotic medium in this way. At the behest of a divination, one might try to change their fate until the divination matches their desire. I fail to see this as anything other than spellcraft, particularly if systematized and/or applied to physical phenomena like the weather or more local vortices. Vancian magic could end up being accurate in this weird way in the future as people use feedback loops to prime mini systems into configurations that have very high fantasy outcomes when they alter larger phenomena. This would very much feel like spell preparation in my eyes. Food for thought.
I think that npc "clerics" should be more like cultists and be more like the sorcerer priests you talk about. Then take all the weird non divine priests in the game and put them in that npc-only category and not player classes. The rules you've come up with to combine them are interesting though. What if a character is trying to be devout and believes their power is from a divine diety but finds some arcane magic because their party needed it but then is having a crisis of faith or maybe their divine magic starts working differently or other in-world effects.
5E Warlocks are 'almost there' in tone, but in ability they are sadly lacking. When we played 5E and the warlock player's turn would come up, we'd meme quote, "Say the words Warlock!" and he's sigh and go, "I cast Eldritch Blast". lol. You could TOTALLY adapt the 5E spell mechanics to a 'Spell Roll' as well.
Yeah in my hybrid game, I have Cloistered Clerics that are like this. No armour, simple blunt weapons. Then Paladins that are like actual game Clerics, (no special powers other than lay-on-hands) more armour & weapons, less spells and turning ability.
In 5e at level 1 Clerics are only limited to Simple Weapons, they are not limited to blunt weapons. If you use the starting equipment, you are given a choice of a mace or warhammer but you do not have to do that. You are confusing them with earlier editions.
I like magic to be free form as possible, less math more fun. I think spell casters can cast whatever they want if they can create a narrative reason why. The GM figures a difficulty and roll. I do charges, Stat plus level = how many charges in a day. Level 3 wizard with 13 int = 16 charges, so can throw 16 level 1 spells a day or charge up and use 2 level 8 spells a day or 1 level 16. You want a spark spell that dose 1d4 great or a 16d4 charge awesome go for it. If you do charge a spell you -1 on roll for every charge. So if you do charge up a spell x16 you better beat a 26. I keep it simple modifier us caster level added to roll, level 4 casters +2 mod only has to beat 6 to cast but say a spell over powered to 10 would have beat a 16 or risk a backfire.
The retro clone of the TSR Conan rpg, ZFRS, goes the route of magic users can cast any type of spell, but they have to find, and study it. And studying magic is not for the weak willed.........
The existences of Clerics in D&D has always been a massive comfort for me. In a power fantasy adventure, there is acknowledgement of a greater power than yourself, and showing HUMILITY to that greater power rather than envy is what grants you strength.
Not for for everyone, but in my settings the gods really 'don''t particularly care' and are indifferent to the plight of mortals. Some of them are so entropic that they could... accidently, and inconsequentially wipe out all of humanity. This kind of existential dread is defiantly not for everyone.
@@captcorajus And this is why in my setting the gods not only heavy involved with their creations, (the god of good disguises himself as poorly disguised avatar of the god of thieves (with his permission) to act as that merchant that seems to pop up everywhere to aid the heroes) but the gods even have avatar that permanently reside in their religions' holy cities.
I'm surprised Vancian magic has lasted as long as it has. You don't really feel like a wizard or sorcerer when your ability is so severely limited. I much prefer systems that implement some sort of cost or effort rather tham the old "spell gun" model.
D&D clerics were never a thing in classic sword & sorcery fantasy (what you are calling pulp fantasy). Several old school games aiming for the sword & sorcery vibe have replaced D&D clerics with with more appropriate classes.
DC 10 + Spell Level times two is crazy. So you're esentially crippling casters past a certain level since good luck rolling above 20 consistently seeing how all you got is a +5 at best.
wrong. I think you're miscalculating the DC, which is 12 for a first level spell. Also, I don't think you have calculated the spell casting ability, which is INT+CA+Special Ability. A 1st level caster with a moderate Intelligence of +3 would have a +6 to their casting roll. Which mean to successfully cast a 1st level spell in their specialty only requires a 6 or better. An 8 or better to cast a second level spell! Deathbring Character creation is a point buy system, and all my PC casters have started out with at least a +5 intelligence bringing the minimum roll down to a 4 or better. Not a 20,
Honestly, I'm more in favor of characters and overall misc. mechanics to be more focused around mundanity. Everyone is a warrior (ie. character-class) ranging from lowly retch or serf up to divine champion or king conqueror, from 1 to 10 - everyone could've use magic, posses divine favor or mystic artifacts without a gamble of dice rolls. Although nice and funny, it is certainly not (gambling) for a schedueled game. But then what about magic being all that mysterious and common cannon-fodder if everyone is about to use their magic or slice you in half? Simply magic is expensive - in time, in treasure and in risk - even a simple magic missile could've cost a 10 GP gem in world where sngle silver is already treated like a 100$ and usually gems are protected by elementals of earth or "hard-labour", not even reminding of a slog of remembering the spell! Gold or resources needed to learn it and 1h/spell slot (or level) to not forget it every single day! Divine magic's more simple, yet somebody needs to be extra pious/fanatical and ready for The Diety's Quest every (more or less) 10 spells casted. Corruption rolls isn't something I'd put in such a misery, yet fitting them behind forced spells, spells casted without a component or stronger than usually - yeah. Btw such magic system makes sword +1 really worth it's price. Not forgetting about rechargeables or scrolls. Fighter problem of luck in a fight 1v1 of equal tacos. .. Khem, I meant to-hit values. "No cannon-fodder" problem. TBH 3 lvl would go to an experienced hunter, 4 lvl to battle veteran, 5 to war veteran or grand swordmaster... Even a king could have 1 lvl of experience. Basicly if there's a fight you are not trying to batter down someone's head! Instead you are trying to flank, disarm, dismember and more - yet everyone is a cannon fodder in such place. But they've got teeth with which they'll bite and wit with which they avoid a fight. Simply said - every fight lethal, magic dangerous and unyeilding. Everything kept in original DD spirit (read: system) making it even more simple to fit together anything I or players could've wanted.
This has given me a few interesting ideas to try out. I've always toyed with the idea of letting clerics use with necromancy and vice versa. To me it makes sense when you think about it, what is more necromantic than controlling the flow of death? Making a fatal wound disappear is as much rising the dead as animating a skeleton, it is the control of life in an unnatural direction.
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The use of club-type weapons seems to have derived from a misinterpretation of the depiction of Bishop Odo of Bayeux Tapestry at the Battle of Hastings in 1066. The Bishop (who was the half-brother of William, Duke of Normandy) was a proper fighting bishop (there were many in the Middle Ages) and such Clerics happily used swords and other sharp weapons. Odo is depicted in the Tapestry holding what looks like a club, but is in fact a stick which he uses to guide the direction of troops moving into battle. These devices were common for generals on a medieval battlefield and are linked to the ceremonial maces that have been part of European royal regalia since medieval times. A mace of office was used as part of King Charles' Coronation Ceremony recently.
Thanks for illuminating these Sorcerer-Priests Captain! I love your channel.
Yup! That's exactly the story I was referencing! I didn't really go into the details on that, I'll highlight your comment because its fun trivia!
@@captcorajus Thanks Captain 🙂
We also know the rod Odo wields is a symbol of authority and not an illustration of his actual armament--because William himself wields a similar rod on a neighbouring panel of the Tapestry!
Another inspiration of Gygax's for the cleric is allegedly Bishop Turpin (AKA Tilpin), a semi-legendary 8th century religious leader who appears as one of the Twelve Peers of Charlemagne (AKA paladins) in the Song of Roland. Turpin wields a sword in the Song, but his sword's name is "Almace", possibly Old German for "Almighty", and I've often wondered if Gygax or one of the Victorian historians he was reading mistook Almace for an actual mace.
@@digitaljanus Fascinating thank you 🙂
@nunyabeezwax6758 Morning star is such a great name for a weapon!
Never thought of Sorcerer priests replacing clerics for pulp fantasy. That’s a super important distinction and makes tons of sense. Conan certainly ran into plenty of them. I'm wondering if normal clerics are better for players, and sorcerer priests are better for DMs; that question requires more thought.
I highly recommend you give it a try IF you and your group prefer that style of play. Its not for everyone, but it definitely adds to the flavor of a gritty, pulp fantasy setting IMHO.
Ditto
The Warlock class in the new Swords & Wizardry Book of Options is basically this. d6 HD, can use any weapon (but no armor), and has a specialized spell list that combines elements of the magic-user and cleric ones, but with the twist that each spell has a Law, Neutrality, and Chaos variation tailored to the alignment of the Warlock and whatever supernatural being they serve.
The bit about Clerics not getting their power _from_ the gods, but rather seeking insight from them, is kind of how I conceptualize Clerics. Clerical magic, much like Druidic magic, is rooted in a holistic understanding of transcendental truths about the world and the cosmos. In many ways, they're like Wizards, except their knowledge is less technical (Intelligence) and more insightful (Wisdom).
Divine beings can grant this insight (and may do so deliberately), but this isn't required. They may instead stand as an example, that inspires understanding of these truths in the would-be Cleric. These truths may also come from contemplating/meditating on natural phenomenon, parables, the lives of saints/martyrs, or the writings of sages or theologians.
As such, even non-deities can teach Clerical insights. Whether that's an angel, demon, or other "outsider", or just a hag, mummy, or random monster. The awe of witnessing a shambling horror deep beneath the earth can be enough to propel a person to such insight. Which in turn leads to lots of cults worshiping and meditating upon the truths embodied by such monsters. Led by charismatic priests with varying levels of insight and the ability to leverage that into a following.
Lower level Cleric spells represent "low-hanging fruit" in terms of the applications of transcendental truths. By no means easy for the laymen to grasp, but not outside a person's reach if given proper time or education to grasp the lower teachings. The greater the truths, the wiser and more versed in such teachings a person must become to acquire them. So hedge priests and local clergy might have some divine magic, while truly world-shaping ones are the province of those dedicated to meditating on higher truths.
That was very insightful and has caused me to edit something in my home-brew (dammit). :)
Well, this is a no-brainer in Worlds Without Number where you can just build a class from two other classes.
Huge fan of this idea. I'd be interested in trying this as a heroic character. One could argue that's all the Cleric is, but this would be like a "John Dee talking with angels" sort of character - I love the idea of a sorcerer-priest tapping into something like the Sefirot, or going before the throne of God like Enoch.
A fun realization has been that the opponent casters don't need to follow the rules, even when using a Vancian system. So yes, the shamans, chaos priests, and sorcerers that my parties encounter will usually be packing spells from the different disciplines, as well as alternate spell lists. My primary campaign belligerents take advantage of Gavin Norman's 'Vivimancer' class and its various flesh-bending spells, hence most of the mooks the PCs encounter are mutants of one sort or another.
I'm reminded how the wizard in The Tower of The Elephant was actually the head priest of the region with this video.
Tower of The Elephant was a big inspiration for this take on priestly magic.
Also reminded me of Akiro from Conan the Barbarian, as well.
Valeria (over Conan's dead body): He said you were a wizard. Do the gods owe you any favors?
Akiro: **grunts an affirmative**
@@WarhavenSC Yes, also an inspiration!
I've been kind of exploring the concept of Clerics not following ONE god, but knowing about where Gods are and how to use/beseech/interact with them.
So, imagine a world where there ARE huge, mysterious, outsider Gods like you mention, but ALSO, lots of little, minor guys that actually interact with the world. There might be one for a river or a lake or a forest, etc. A Cleric has knowledge as to where they are and how to appease them and how to ask them for help. They might talk to people and have favorites, just like any normal person, but aren't "defeatable", at least in their own "home", but could be killed or made dormant by something like their river drying up or their forest getting cut down or burned down or something. I like that they're more interactable and more "of the world" but still allow the players to have interactions with divine powers of some sort. I like the thought of having lots of gods all over the place that all do their thing.
Sounds very much like Japanese animism; watch Spirited Away and there is the prominent featuring of a polluted river (who is later cured).
Sounds like a Druid to me.
I am doing that right now my Bronze Age game. Very similar to how Bronze Age religion worked
@HappyFunNorm You should consider going back and checking out some of the old pre-faction war planescape stuff, the godsmen faction likely has something or other worth mining.
@@Arnsteel634 Oooh that sounds very cool, I had an idea a while back for a late bronze/very early iron age game set in Arthurian Britain.
Something like this suits a polytheistic setting way more than the default henotheism of standard D&D. While some real world cultures did have religious specialists devoted to a single deity at the expense of all others, it was just as common for such individuals to conduct rituals associated with several different gods depending on need or appropriateness.
The classic templar style cleric is more of a "Warrior Monk"
During 2nd edition, I embraced the Speciality Priest idea and eliminated all general clerics. Each Priest was devoted to their deity or power and thus had unique abilities and equipment rules. In addition, I did something similar by eliminating the Vancian memorization. The rational was that you pray or call for aid and this adjusts to the situation. Calling on a power did not jibe with memorization. For my part, this helped me with a sorcerer priest archtype as Gods of Death had necromatic priests or allegiances with the lower powers and so on. Great topic!
Still play 2E and created a Fish Goddess for Halruaa and the Great Sea region. She's a former Halruaa wizard turned Demi-Goddess, and her FIsh-Priestesses are all Wizard-Priests, who don't use Vancian magic system. They use spell points as Free Magick, and roll Spellcraft checks with bonuses or penalties, and get fatigued.
Similarly, I regard the limit of spells per day as a product of exertion rather than the wiping of memory. And from 2nd edition I took the notion of differences between clerics according to deity (swords and axes suddenly become cool for the more martial of churches). My Death personified is different however - it is a neutral deity of mortality and eternal sleep. Its clerics hate necromancy because it is a twisting of true death. :)
@@originaluddite Dustman cleric.?
Well in Hyperborea i can simply say that instead of learning 3 Cleric Spells each level up they can learn instead 1 Cleric Spell and one 1 Magician or Necromancer Spell so we can have Sorcerer-Clerics and Sorcerer-Priests and maybe Sorcerer-Paladins and Sorcerer-Purloneirs. i like this approach a lot and makes it a little more Weird Pulpy.
Man, for some reason your videos give me a warm, nostalgic feeling. Obviously your DJ experience gives your voice that edge, but great topics too. Love from the United Kingdom 🇬🇧
The comfy bumper music doesnt hurt either. Its like your cool uncle is telling you about the old days
Now this is great. I am a huge fan of sword and sorcery, and the Cleric class has never fit those settings. The most I've seen in the past is instead of the Cleric class, allowing Magic-Users to get cleric spells in some fashion, or perhaps (my own idea although not original) to let them choose at character creation if they are a "priest" (i.e. cleric spells) or a "sorcerer" (i.e. magic user spells). Potentially allowing them swords and daggers, as you do tend to see pulp sorcerers using swords if they ever actually fight in melee.
In all my factions, good and evil, i have sorcerer-priests, warlock-priests, wizard priests, as well as clerics. A priest serves the church, and/or the people of their city, they don't always have to draw on the same power-source or that one power-source in the same way. Not every pastor had to be able to doff medium armor or need to know how to use a mace.
Heck by the time we were done with session 3, the Barbarian joined the priesthood of the nurturing rain. His sermons were hilarious.
This sounds much more flavourful for a Sword and Sorcery world! I'll have to keep note of that.
In my games, clerics are rare individuals who're granted favour by the god they worship, which distinguishes them from others in the priesthood (all clerics are priests, but not all priests are clerics). As such, their powers are a gift to be used as an agent of that god to further their goals or maintain a certain status quo. Should they falter in their task, like giving into temptation or corruption, they straight up lose access to their power. Other spellcasters have to deal with a magical mishap table, such as yours, but clerics ignore that since their deity is on their side, up until they're not. To regain their powers, they must redeem themselves in some manner willingly, such as going on a quest, performing an atonement ritual or some other task the GM may find appropriate.
Tbh the starting premise of this video is true about old DnD clerics. Later down the line DnD and adjacent systems ( *cough* Pathfinder *cough* ) expanded cleric into a very versatile class where you can be a true holy man of faith (3.5 cloistered cleric, ecclesitheurge of Pathfinder), a better fighter than fighter (War domain cleric), better barbarian than barbarian (pathfinder cleric of Gorum) and even a ghetto wizard (various knowledge and magic domains which gave you access to some distinctly wizard spells.)
Oh, and that meme about blunt weapon is again no longer true, since 3.5 clerics can wield whatever they want and in Pathfinder clerics of Sarenrae can inflict nonlethal damage with scimitars (their holy weapon) and with all fire spells.
I know modern iterations have changed that, but this is an 'old school' channel after all. 🤣
Love this concept of the Ecclesiastical Sorcerer. Someone (if forget who) made a Hyborean Age set of house rules based on 0e D&D and used a similar concept.
Wow! thanks for the tip and the kind words! I know EXACTLY who you're talking about. Its Jason Vey's OD&D supplement 'Age of Conan' which I adore, and is absolutely the inspiration for my modifications. :)
@@captcorajusExcellent!
Finally!! An effective nuance!! I knew you had it in you!! BRAVO!!!
100%! I never liked Clerics in D&D. Always felt anachronistic and out of place to me, to say nothing of how they are typically used by players- more of a hit point vending machine than any sort of religious or mystical person. DCC RPG was the first time I saw a game treat a Cleric seriously, and included rules to make sure the players did as well- or at least they treat the dice seriously, which is as close as I ever got.
Sorcerer Priests make absolute sense in S&S. Particularly in Conan/Hyborean based setting, which has been my primary exposure to the genre. I will 100% develop this for some of my own games. Thank you!
I like mixing and matching flavor from various classes to create more unique characters and an [insert class here] who fancies themselves a cleric is a favorite of mine, though I've only managed to play one so far. That character was a 5e artificer. It was a mindflayer party campaign so I had fleshy constructs and my character worshipped Thoon. Every creation was a 'great work crafted in their vision!'
I've been playing D&D since 1980 and for most of that time I've disliked the Vancian magic system. It's interesting in Vance's books but what works in a story isn't necessarily good in a game. In D&D it always felt like a simplistic way to resource limit magic users; resource limitation is needed (I hate 5e's endless cantrips) but I feel like there should be a better way. I love the idea of rolling to cast spells. It's a natural use of the d20 mechanic and allows for interesting things like critical successes and failures. I'm uncertain about unlimited casting though because of the whole issue of resource limits. In principle I love DCC's method for clerics of increasing the auto failure number each time a spell is failed but I haven't played with it to see how it works in practice.
been using it a year and it works very well.
Slightly confused on the Spell Casting Roll equation used: 1d20 + INT Modifier + CA Level. Does "CA Level" refer to the level of spell being cast, or the current level of the character casting the spell?
Always felt like the Cleric class was a bit of an overcomplicated mish mash when it came to 5E, too many cooks in the kitchen with its development. Going back to it's pulp roots was a great idea, love this version and how it can be expanded to any magic-user super easily (especially for homebrew rulesets). The fact it was based around one of my favorite indie RPG rulesets Deathbringer is also a huge plus.
In the Hyperborea RPG CA = Caster Ability which is the same as the Character's Level. So a 1st level caster with a +5 int would add +6 to their roll. If it is in their specialty school they would then get +8.
I like being a wizard. I like magic to work and be effective. If I want magic to corrupt me, blow up in my face, and drive me crazy, I'll play Call of Ctuthlu. I do not understand the grimdark need to constantly hinder casters. And, by all means, keep the character levels low, so the casters die easily and never get access to the really cools spells😢
I was down for this from the title. Dis gon' be good.
Cool idea. My one and only take at running a more pulp fantasy game used the idea that clerical magic was indeed granted by the gods, but only the truly faithful could actually cast clerical spells. There were a lot of priests, but few clerics (i.e. divine spellcasters). In addition, because there were so many fewer faithful people of good alignment, their divine casting was more powerful than those of other alignments. This was all in a very low magic setting to encourage most players to roll martial classes and thus keep wizards, sorcerers, and clerics quite rare and feel more unique and special. Thanks for the video.
New video. Happy day
Your videos are always amazing. Thank you for sharing.
How timely. I am creating a sword and sorcery game right now, that has grown out of long campaign that started with Ironsworn, went to Swords of the Serpentine, then onto Stonetop, went to a homebrew that "failed" and lastly Moediphius's 2d20 Conan. Somehow, all these game systems and settings merged into one cohesive campaign world. Now, my game in progress is NOT aimed at replicating that campaign world, but using it as a framework to discuss the rules. But there was something that came about in play at the table that I really liked in it's implications for magic, gods and the like. Something that impact the game design, not just the campaign setting.
In our campaign, the gods are real. The gods care. Which is a very odd place to start for a Sword and Sorcery vibe. But it works. Because the Gods have a dilemma. They get their power from the worship and rising of mankind, right? But that same human spirit that sustains the Gods, sends out a "psychic beacon" and there are extradimensional horrors from beyond the cosmos that want to eat the planet and the Gods themselves. The Gods need to curate and raise humanity up slowly as they hide the planet and protect the occasional chaos/dimensional incursion. They have let entire empires fall because "they shown too brightly". Right now, we are in a period of upswing, coming out of a post apocalyptic epoch started some 800 years ago due to humans getting out of control, angel types called the Makers rebelling, and disease and war ravaging the continent. Humanity, mostly on the coasts, is doing well again. There are plenty of resources to be had, although, must be wrested away from monsters that roam and the natural dangers of the natural world. So, mostly city-states, very few nations.
We have the Chosen. A few individuals who are granted abilities by the Gods, usually 1 God per person. Their powers do come from the Gods, unlike your game (which I think your Sorcerer-Priests are totally cool! This is not a refutiation, but a different side of the same coin.). But the Gods can be busy, distracted and the more one uses the power, the more they Change. Eventually the Change is so great that they "ascend" up to the God dimensions so they can help in the battle to shield and fight against the Cosmic Horrors from Beyond.
Then we have Shamans and Druids who tap into the "natural" spirits for their powers. Lastly we have Sorcerers who quite resemble the ones you described. So we have this "triangle of mystics", mystics being the world's generic term for anyone with powers beyond human scope. Spirit magic and Sorcery (extradimensional, reality bending magic) are opposed. Divine magic sits in between. That, we found, creates a real fun and fertile tension. And like I said, oddly having a renaissance setting and Gods involved, which is the total opposite of REH nations everywhere and Crom doesn't give a damn, still feels very, very Swords and Sorcery.
Just a thought. LIked your video very much. I suscribed and hit that like button too.
I like this idea! Pure, "normal" clerics would still be welcome in my games; this is largely just a matter of roleplaying and the game world's background (the way I do it, is that most religion adherents are just ordinary folks with faith; only a very few are able to pray for miracles, i.e. use cleric spells) so I feel that both clerics and these sorcerer priests could be used in the same campaign.
Great content! I'm a fan of Pulp Fantasy, and would love to watch more stuff like this.
1e Low-Fantasy Gaming magic user is similar to this. You can choose whether you get your magic from priestly orders or demonic influence. Though you still have prepared spells you still role under luck to see if you can succeed from a bad to horrible effect.
I approve of this idea. One of the things that consistently puts me off D&D is that I hate Clerics. I will be using your ideas.
Cap - Awesome video and topic. In my current 1/2e campaign I have introduced wizard- sorcerer / priests (as sufis- there’s an Arabian / Middle Eastern flavor) that serve as mystics who study meta-physics and the nature of divine and arcane magic. Some are good, some are neutral and still others are evil and similar to what you’ve described here as twisted abominations cursed and “blessed” for their forbidden delving.
I also employ a somewhat open mechanic for Magic users, clerics and sufis to perform powerful ritualistic magic that far outstrips their normal Vancian daily allotment, with it being heavily reliant on location (intersection of ley lines, consecrated / desecrated places), special rituals, rare /exotic or even unique components, and timing (season or astronomical alignment or syzygy).
I love the flavor of the Lovecraftian gods with the sword and sorcery of Conan.
Very cool! Its no secret that I'm a big fan of Lovecraft as well!
What you describe sounds VERY similar to the magic and ritual system in Outcast Silver Raiders. The boxed set may be the best TTRPG product I have ever purchased.
You have me intrigued, Captcorajus. I have only ever played two sessions of tabletop rpg in my life. The same campaign. I have played plenty of rpg video games in my life. And I have read booklets from rpg games-just up to now not cover to cover. At least I don't remember any booklets I might have read cover to cover. With all this being said. Considering my limited tabletop rpg experience in life. I'm interested in reading the comments for this video and seeing how everyone else feels about what you say about clerics. As of now I don't have enough of my own experience to agree or disagree with your thoughts in this video. I'm just curious how everyone else feels. In time though-I can't make any promises when I'll get around to reading this video's comments. But I will be fun when I do so. Thanks for the dive into this subject, Captain.
I run Dungeon Crawl Classics and use the World of Xoth setting for Sword and Sorcery. I just removed the lay on hands ability ( how clerics heal in DCC) and renamed the class to Priest. I use the Lankhmar boxed set for Luck healing and Fleeting Luck. Carousing is how you regain Luck back and bam I got a real Sword and Sorcery campaign going!
First off, I really dig this idea, but expand it to mix and match depending on the system caster spell lists, like tossing druid and illusionist into the mix. As for where clerics come form, well it's not in Appendix N directly, but these guys were also fans of medieval history and must certainly have read the Song of Roland and or studied history. Charlemagne's Paladins included Archbishop of Reims, Tilpin who wielded the sword Almace. Drawing from this history as well, you kind of see why they limited clerics to blunt weapons, not that it would not be cool, but rather why play a fighter when you could also wield holy magic? Cloth priests would not do, as you would have two softies dungeon crawling. Smaller hit die than a fighter later on, but full armor and you get the modern cleric. Someone must have been inspired by Roland and you get the modern paladin. The straight up cloth priest, the "man of the cloth", "faith is my shield", is still missing from every edition of D&D, and most retro clones.
I'm on the fence about some of these changes. I think this might be an interesting change to apply to chaotic cleric and perhaps add some others to neutral clerics to make them all feel different but as for all clerics especially lawful I don't think it fully "fits".
If you wanna go with Knave 2e's charisma & deity favors as well as the Inteligence use.
As Charisma gets you favors & influence from a patron, be it a god or what not, and Int alloes for magic use.
Interesting video. I'm about to start a new game using the Barbarians of Lemuria Hack (BOL meets OSR) to do a more sword & sorcery style bent on the standard D&D adventure, so this video was good food for thought. I'm also a big fan of Professor Dungeon Master's Deathbringer and Hyperborea. Keep up the good videos 👍
Barbarians of Lemuria was a big influence on my thinking here!
That the gods aren't all aloof assholes is WHY I love D&D so much.
Well, certainly that's one way to play D&D and if that's how you have fun, don't let me dissuade you.
However, I don't play it that way. My setting has a gritty, sword and sorcery/ Lovecraftian influence. The gods aren't 'uncaring' they are indifferent. They are beings of immense power with goals and ideas of their own and morals are insignificant. Several of them, Kthulhu, for example (Hyperborea spelling) might inadvertently wake up and destroy everything Existential dread is part of the setting.
In this setting, the typical D&D cleric is out of place. Which is the entire reason for the video. :)
I'm not writing a campaign but a novel (though it is pretty much trying to answer the question of what happens centuries after the heroic adventuring party has already defeated the big bad primordial evil), but I definitely prefer the idea of actual divine magic being both rare and exceedingly powerful. It's a dang god, after all! I like some of the ideas in Pathfinder's Oracles where the divine insight is so overwhelming that the casters are cursed because of it.
Man, this was a wild video. Loved it.
Best channel on the tube
I love Clerics and Divine Magic. They're my favorite Class. Divine Magic is just so useful. Unfortunately, they just don't really work in a pulp fantasy setting outside of a few very specific circumstances.
So true!
I think they can, I just think that you need to change how you look at the god's for clerical magic to fit into pulp, think less Catholics but with real magic(though that could be terrifying depending on what century) and more the cult of Haustor(less the Chamber's version and more Derleth's).
Good stuff!
I just finished rereading all of the elric series and your take rings true
Group playing AD&D 1st edition and never could get into Clerics. Love magic users but also was never happy with the magic system.
Unfortunately these days I mostly play 5e because that's what my nephew is into.
But over time I slowly introduced Homebrew Magic stuff that brought it more in line with DCC or what you're thinking.
I eventually codified it and published it in a small book called Death Fingers Guide to Dangerous Magic.
Very cool! Great minds and all that. lol
I don't remember you doing, um, prescriptive(?) videos before. Very cool ideas
I don't do them often, but I have before. :)
9:20 I have always loved it. Inspired by Moses himself.
I've going to run Tales From The Fallen Empire from Chapter 13 Press For Use with DCC RPG. It can easily be converted to 3.5 or 2E/2.5. This would also work well for Hyperborea
that's what I use, Hyperborea
Not entirely sure about this idea. In my own campaign clerical "magic" and dark pacts are quite different from what a mage does. This goes beyond a "give a man a fish vs teaching a man to fish" thing. Having followers and sacrifices equals additional power for small "g" gods and there are plenty of spirits and demons who want to "climb the ladder". In short, lesser powers are farming for likes from the mortal plane with worship and souls serving as building blocks of power. The Divine and the Diabolic however are something far beyond that.
I worked around with clerics being in the same division as nowadays 5e warlocks; gods are simply a hyped "patron", just like witches related to their hellish patrons.
Yeah, I really like the warlock concept in 5E, no so much a fan of the execution. But absolutely!
@@captcorajus I met that concept in Palladium RPG 1e, were witches and warlocks (elemental magic casters) were taken as a mix between clerics and magic users in the sense they do not understand what and how magic works unlike true magicians. On Palladium RPG 2e the concept was worked a little more, but that's not my preferred edition.
Love this idea.
This video was filled with great insights, awesome ideas I plan on stealing for my own game. I love the Sorceror Priest idea and now can't shake it. Any thoughts on using Warlocks with their patrons in some similar role?
If you look at 7:19 I listed all the different types of spell casters in my setting and then the additional 'special abilities' they get because of their specialization. Sorcerers all work essentially the same, its the spell lists and the special abilities that make them distinctive. Using this system there are no spell slots, you can just cast the spell as long as you make the spell roll.... so, in place of 'spell slots' you could say those numbers of spells per day you can make the roll with 'advantage' reflecting the extra power from the warlocks patron. So 1 spell at level one, 2 spells a day from levels 2 to 10, 3 spells per day from levels 11 to 16, etc.
In SJG’s The Fantasy Trip it is a points-based system & there are skills like Priest and then Theologian, and for healing there’s a skill called Physicker for healing injury. However, all the spells are the same. SJ I guess eschewed concepts of Gods and separate spells for “clerical” character builds. It’s kind of annoying to work around. But the Sorcerer Priest concept def fits. It should be noted that in Homer’s The Iliad human characters encounter Gods like Aphrodite and Ares on the battlefield and wound them. So there is some root to D&D “gods” being otherworldly but able to be fought by humans. Also Conan is always fighting real-world “Gods” in the stories and comics.
Capt’N, why not review the old school The Fantasy Trip system and its 2019 Legacy edition? There’s a lot of support material to review. Also the Dungeon Fantasy “powered by GURPS” line. Just a thought for us fans. Did you ever play these games?
Great video!
I have really enjoyed games with spell rolls, this seems like a nice hack to Hyperborea, too.
So historical rather than pulp but in the Russian occult beliefs of the middle ages as well as in the German grimoiric tradition there was this idea that the book it's self not just the knowledge contained within the book was magic and that it needed to be charged by being placed under an alter and left there while a sermon was held. It was a fusion of the older forms of talisman magic with the the occult underbelly of the early eastern orthodox church(which then spread west). I know the German version had a lot more influence from the middle eastern, and middle eastern derived Greek and Latin sources.
The original D&D cleric feels very much like a hodgepodge of ideas about medieval Templars, vampire hunters and biblical stories. (FWIW I'm convinced that the blunt weapon limitation was simply a game balance thing where clerics could be decent fighters but couldn't use magic swords, which were pretty much the only magic items around.) I'm open to the idea of the radical change suggested here to make it fit pulp style fantasy better. That said, I like the idea of divine influence and granted powers. I often imagine a fantasy world where there are multiple deities who are actively vying for power and influence among mortals rather than indifferent, far-off powers. So maybe some balance between the original concept and sorcerer priests would be better in my kind of game world.
You're right about the magic swords. Using them was the exclusive purview of the fighter.
Note, that divine influence and granted powers are not gone using this system. If a priest wants a boon its going to require an involved ritual/ sacrifice/ both. The suggestion here is 'daily granted powers' are replaced with actual magical study and research like traditional M-Us
Rad video
D&D was not originally a Sword and Sorcery setting; at least not for me. For me, it was more about King Arthur, Amadis of Gaul and stories like that. Later on, they added sword and sorcery elements like the barbarian and assassins and the like. For the original setting, a decidedly Western European flavor was granted the default, with the obvious parallel with the cleric to the various knightly orders. Frankly, if any change would be made, I would rather eliminate the cleric in favor of the paladin. On the other hand, I do agree with you regarding sword and sorcery settings and the elimination of the cleric. But I would never say that D&D was from the beginning a sword and sorcery themed game. There's just way too much evidence against that thought.
I'm only going the references the original authors made as to their influences of the game. Early D&D was very pulp oriented.
@@captcorajus Pulp is a VERY broad category! Nobody played the game back in the day as a "sword and sorcery" style game. It was all about knights (fighters), clerics and Merlin types killing bad guys, taking their loot and building castles! People forget that the "end game" was Domain Level play. But I get it, you want to play in a sort of amoral universe without any hierarchical structure or morals to it. I get it. Been there, done that. You can make the game that way if you want, but don't go around telling people that the game was like that from the beginning, when that simply is not true.
@@flashgorgon5516 Dude.... I don't have to, the CREATORS OF THE GAME did. Hate to break it to you. Pulp Fantasy was part of the game from the beginning. The very first TSR published module was "Temple of the Frog" about a guy from another planet with laser guns crash landing on a primative planet and starting his own cult to take over the world. The game's magic system comes from a popular Pulp Fantasy series, the Dying Earth. Have a good day.
@@captcorajus The cleric was one of the four basic classes; the barbarian was not. The game was inspired by pulp, but again, pulp is a very broad category! You know that, right? I mean, ever heard of Sam Spade?
the best magic system I've encountered is Shadowrun where the spell casters can keep running spells as long as they made their own saving throws or they got worn out and needed to rest. The 1st ed system was kind of a botch because wizards essentially had ONE spell and then they became a sub par person in a wool robe.
These are just Arcanists from pathfinder 1e. Sorcerers who need int as well as charisma, prpare their spells, spontaneous cast etc. And your casting check is just giving every enemy Spell Resistance, which you contest to see if you can overcome it. My point being, maybe you should check out the Arcanist in more depth to get some inspiration for your game.
Never really got into Pathfinder, I'll check it out, thanks!
I like this magic concept because a wish can be cast by a low level caster, however with great risk!
Very true!
I have never liked Vancian magic. I had no idea where the concept came from until fairly recently. Even knowing the roots of the system, it just seems hokey to me. That said, I've never ventured away from it. I'm currently running OSE and use the magic system RAW, but I don't describe it as memorization. Clerics pray and magic users prepare their magic, but the spell slots are just an abstraction.
I'd say this sounds cool!
Off topic... But BRW Games Adventures Dark and Deep is getting a refresh. I'm looking for your review of the first print...
The distinction between mages and clerics was always a bit forced. An academic would call them all something like 'magico-religious experts'. In human history the religious practices of foreigners have often been interpreted as magic. Elites grant the status of religion to those beliefs they approve of and stigmatize as magic those beliefs they oppose. Or sometimes magic is the remnant of a long-neglected old religion tolerated as an occult supplement to dominant practices (consider how many theists still consult horoscopes).
But having just given grounds for combining these groupings I now want to say I rather like the distinction. Possibly I only say that from decades of gaming habit but I find it works well as long as your setting can justify it. Deities only give small portions of supernatural power to clerics specifically so that they can sit back and let mortals take care of things for themselves. Atheists can still tap into the paranormal as mages. Arguments can erupt over exactly how the universe works and what came first (and the GM never need answer those questions).
In my own home-brew I have blended some aspects of the two however. Both can draw from the same esoteric skills list. Both can cast divination (which in its very name is divine) but mages call it prognostication. And I shifted abjuration from mages to clerics.
One more thing - if you keep the mage-cleric distinction then the 'witch or warlock' category of mages that draw on the power of demons just confuses matters. But maybe that is pretty much what you are describing with your sorcerer-priests. :)
Honestly, I think the frequently maligned Vancian system has its perks. In particular, it would make sense that some rituals can have their effects “bottled” to unleash later. It is in this way, I think the Vancian system could be useful to supplement other forms of casting. Similarly, sorceror-priests are inappropriate (atleast in the default) when dealing with Mitra. I would imagine that at minimum Mitrean priests would have significantly lower probabilities of corruption. So I am not sure the total elimination of clerics.
Lastly, Vancian magic is possibly real. I am not going to claim expertise here, rather I wish to speculate. Reservoir computing, a fairly obscure but powerful technology, is increasingly becoming integrated into LLMs (think chatGPT).
The idea is to use a chaotic black box in place of several layers of a traditional LLM. This is using chaos, itself, to do computation, which in my mind “is” magic. I do not mean that there are any per se nonphysical interactions here, but that what was called sorcery by the ancients is indistinguishable from primitive reservoir computers with humans acting as the input/output layer and learning layer.
To illustrate the point, one could hypothetically take a crystal ball with chaotic deformations and treat that as a reservoir. One could translate some prompt about the outcome of a chaotic time series system (like the weather, as an example) into an input vector to then get transformed mentally by the person projecting the vector onto the surface of the crystal. The vector would transform into an end state which could then be modified with a chart into a final output vector which is then interpreted as the answer to the desired question.
The base elements of this are very real. A bowl of water was used to demonstrate this kind of computation, and reservoir computers have already been found to be very good at predicting chaotic systems (eerily good). This is, in my mind, definitionally divination magic.
Now, once you can predict the future of a system, you have the possibility of changing it. One could, hypothetically (very speculatively here), make changes at a distance through a chaotic medium in this way. At the behest of a divination, one might try to change their fate until the divination matches their desire. I fail to see this as anything other than spellcraft, particularly if systematized and/or applied to physical phenomena like the weather or more local vortices.
Vancian magic could end up being accurate in this weird way in the future as people use feedback loops to prime mini systems into configurations that have very high fantasy outcomes when they alter larger phenomena. This would very much feel like spell preparation in my eyes.
Food for thought.
I think that npc "clerics" should be more like cultists and be more like the sorcerer priests you talk about. Then take all the weird non divine priests in the game and put them in that npc-only category and not player classes.
The rules you've come up with to combine them are interesting though. What if a character is trying to be devout and believes their power is from a divine diety but finds some arcane magic because their party needed it but then is having a crisis of faith or maybe their divine magic starts working differently or other in-world effects.
Wouldnt the Warlock be the best fit to the Sorcerer Priest archetype?
I know there isnt a Warlock class in most OSR systems (especially the original ones), but still...
5E Warlocks are 'almost there' in tone, but in ability they are sadly lacking. When we played 5E and the warlock player's turn would come up, we'd meme quote, "Say the words Warlock!" and he's sigh and go, "I cast Eldritch Blast". lol. You could TOTALLY adapt the 5E spell mechanics to a 'Spell Roll' as well.
@@captcorajus5.5e Warlock fixed that issue entirely while also giving them the ability to dip their toes into other class spell lists like Bard does.
More vids like this!!
Yeah in my hybrid game, I have Cloistered Clerics that are like this. No armour, simple blunt weapons. Then Paladins that are like actual game Clerics, (no special powers other than lay-on-hands) more armour & weapons, less spells and turning ability.
In 5e at level 1 Clerics are only limited to Simple Weapons, they are not limited to blunt weapons. If you use the starting equipment, you are given a choice of a mace or warhammer but you do not have to do that. You are confusing them with earlier editions.
I like magic to be free form as possible, less math more fun. I think spell casters can cast whatever they want if they can create a narrative reason why. The GM figures a difficulty and roll. I do charges, Stat plus level = how many charges in a day. Level 3 wizard with 13 int = 16 charges, so can throw 16 level 1 spells a day or charge up and use 2 level 8 spells a day or 1 level 16. You want a spark spell that dose 1d4 great or a 16d4 charge awesome go for it. If you do charge a spell you -1 on roll for every charge. So if you do charge up a spell x16 you better beat a 26. I keep it simple modifier us caster level added to roll, level 4 casters +2 mod only has to beat 6 to cast but say a spell over powered to 10 would have beat a 16 or risk a backfire.
Are these exerpts from the fabled Deathbringer 2e?
Hi cap 🗣️🔥
The retro clone of the TSR Conan rpg, ZFRS, goes the route of magic users can cast any type of spell, but they have to find, and study it. And studying magic is not for the weak willed.........
Where can I download your Deathbringer Hyperborea rules?
Well.. you can't. Deathbinger is Dan Master's game, which is on drivethruRPG. My Hyperborea modifications are for my group, and my patreons.
@@captcorajus Noted. I'll be joining your patreon soon.
The existences of Clerics in D&D has always been a massive comfort for me. In a power fantasy adventure, there is acknowledgement of a greater power than yourself, and showing HUMILITY to that greater power rather than envy is what grants you strength.
Not for for everyone, but in my settings the gods really 'don''t particularly care' and are indifferent to the plight of mortals. Some of them are so entropic that they could... accidently, and inconsequentially wipe out all of humanity. This kind of existential dread is defiantly not for everyone.
@@captcorajus And this is why in my setting the gods not only heavy involved with their creations, (the god of good disguises himself as poorly disguised avatar of the god of thieves (with his permission) to act as that merchant that seems to pop up everywhere to aid the heroes) but the gods even have avatar that permanently reside in their religions' holy cities.
great video
I'm surprised Vancian magic has lasted as long as it has. You don't really feel like a wizard or sorcerer when your ability is so severely limited. I much prefer systems that implement some sort of cost or effort rather tham the old "spell gun" model.
I like spells that work against the user instead of spell failure and lack of points meaning nothing happens.
Video begins at 2:35, holy stalling batman.
Welcome to the channel!
Clercic for me this more Sorcerer, Sacerdotes or Monster Hunters
I'm sure WOT change things just for the sake of it.
D&D clerics were never a thing in classic sword & sorcery fantasy (what you are calling pulp fantasy). Several old school games aiming for the sword & sorcery vibe have replaced D&D clerics with with more appropriate classes.
DC 10 + Spell Level times two is crazy. So you're esentially crippling casters past a certain level since good luck rolling above 20 consistently seeing how all you got is a +5 at best.
wrong. I think you're miscalculating the DC, which is 12 for a first level spell. Also, I don't think you have calculated the spell casting ability, which is INT+CA+Special Ability. A 1st level caster with a moderate Intelligence of +3 would have a +6 to their casting roll. Which mean to successfully cast a 1st level spell in their specialty only requires a 6 or better. An 8 or better to cast a second level spell!
Deathbring Character creation is a point buy system, and all my PC casters have started out with at least a +5 intelligence bringing the minimum roll down to a 4 or better. Not a 20,
Honestly, I'm more in favor of characters and overall misc. mechanics to be more focused around mundanity. Everyone is a warrior (ie. character-class) ranging from lowly retch or serf up to divine champion or king conqueror, from 1 to 10 - everyone could've use magic, posses divine favor or mystic artifacts without a gamble of dice rolls. Although nice and funny, it is certainly not (gambling) for a schedueled game.
But then what about magic being all that mysterious and common cannon-fodder if everyone is about to use their magic or slice you in half?
Simply magic is expensive - in time, in treasure and in risk - even a simple magic missile could've cost a 10 GP gem in world where sngle silver is already treated like a 100$ and usually gems are protected by elementals of earth or "hard-labour", not even reminding of a slog of remembering the spell! Gold or resources needed to learn it and 1h/spell slot (or level) to not forget it every single day! Divine magic's more simple, yet somebody needs to be extra pious/fanatical and ready for The Diety's Quest every (more or less) 10 spells casted. Corruption rolls isn't something I'd put in such a misery, yet fitting them behind forced spells, spells casted without a component or stronger than usually - yeah. Btw such magic system makes sword +1 really worth it's price. Not forgetting about rechargeables or scrolls.
Fighter problem of luck in a fight 1v1 of equal tacos. .. Khem, I meant to-hit values. "No cannon-fodder" problem. TBH 3 lvl would go to an experienced hunter, 4 lvl to battle veteran, 5 to war veteran or grand swordmaster... Even a king could have 1 lvl of experience. Basicly if there's a fight you are not trying to batter down someone's head! Instead you are trying to flank, disarm, dismember and more - yet everyone is a cannon fodder in such place. But they've got teeth with which they'll bite and wit with which they avoid a fight.
Simply said - every fight lethal, magic dangerous and unyeilding.
Everything kept in original DD spirit (read: system) making it even more simple to fit together anything I or players could've wanted.
3.5 dnd cleric were more powerfull than mage.
3.5 D&D Clerics were more powerful than everyone!
@@captcorajus maybe = to the druid
id been toying with making most less fighty priests in my game sorcerers
Turned off the vid the second I saw that shitty AI image sorry
I rolled my eyes at your shitty comment, but thanks for the engagement!
This has given me a few interesting ideas to try out. I've always toyed with the idea of letting clerics use with necromancy and vice versa. To me it makes sense when you think about it, what is more necromantic than controlling the flow of death? Making a fatal wound disappear is as much rising the dead as animating a skeleton, it is the control of life in an unnatural direction.