Truth be told, movie Boromir is my favorite character in not only the fellowship, but all middle-earth. His impacts to each character are just massive. For example, Aragorn. He is super flawed, and at the beginning of the journey this reinforces Aragorn’s prejudice against the race of men. However, as Fellowship continues, despite his flaws, Boromir teaches Aragorn how to be a leader of the flawed and the weak. He frequently takes consideration of how the hobbits are physically and emotionally. Something that Aragorn has a hard time with, being raised by elves. When, despite his lowest moment in trying to take to ring from Frodo, Boromir turns on a dime and sacrifices himself in a vane attempt to save Merry and Pippin, Aragorn has a realization that light still lives in the hearts of men. He grasps his hand as he dies and speaks to him with compassion “I will not fail OUR people.” My point is, Boromir’s problems are what give him his place in the fellowship. He is there to teach Aragorn how to lead the imperfect.
You differentiate and specify “movie Boromir”. In your opinion, is he drastically different in the book? I just rewatched Fellowship but haven’t read the books in a few years so can’t remember all the specifics.
What I like about him even more - there are several deleted scenes from extended cut of the movie which are giving entirely new meaning to his character. First of all, he didn't even wanted to go to the council because he knew about ring power over people and he was afraid of it. He was sent there by his father with a mission to retrieve the ring to be used as a weapon to defeat Sauron. So yeah, ring definitely had some influence on him, but, for example, the core reason why he tried to take ring from Frodo is not because of ring's influence, but because of his mission.
As a LOTR hyper-nerd, you’re only mildly correct. Faramir had the dream twice, then Boromir had it once. They both went to their father and asked him what it meant, telling the brothers Imladris was the home of Elrond the half-elven, greatest of lore masters. Faramir felt he should go but Boromir insisted he go, and begrudgingly was allowed to by Denethor his father / steward of Gondor.
Also Gimli wasn’t the one bearing the message of the deal Sauron’s messenger bore (to get the ring from Bilbo in exchange for the remaining Dwarven rings that still existed and that Moria would be theirs forever), it was his father Gloin
Walk, I think Boromir said the dream came to his brother "often", which I read as a lot. I would suggest a lot more than twice - seems to me he had it many times. And then Boromir throws in at the end that - afterwards it came once to him as well. Tolkien never tells us the truth, so we only have Boromir's word here... but I always felt that he never had the dream. And seeing what a baller Faramir is in the books (awesome leader, super courageous, great fighter) seems to me Denethor is the reason he never left for Rivendell. Just a guess on my part, of course. What are your thoughts?
Agreed. I left a lot out, like Gloin, just trying to be quick. I LOVE the council of Elrond in the book... and wish the movie was a bit more like it. The thing that I like the most that they left out was Bilbo. He is a ROCKSTAR in the book. He volunteers to destroy the ring, he sticks up for Aragorn, he is epic!
Also I listen to the Council of Elrond almost every night to fall asleep so I know basically every word of the chapter lol I love it too. If you haven’t heard Phil Dragash’s soundscape audiobook renditions you need to listen asap. LOTR movie music, sound effects and voices are done legitimately perfectly.
That's awesome. I will definitely check that audio book out. Honestly, I usually just don't get into audio books for some reason.... they just don't click for me like reading or movies. But that sounds awesome!
But if the roles were reversed, then Faramir may not have driven Frodo to leave the Fellowship at the right time as Boromir did, and when Frodo came through Ithilien he would be captured by Boromir instead of Faramir, and Boromir would not have let him go. So there was a higher power at work that let Boromir go in his stead.
@calebklingerman7902, book Faramir is an absolute baller and I could see him successfully leading Sam and Frodo to Mt Doom as the main hero there, allowing Aragorn to go to Minas Tirith and be the hero there. Would be an interesting juxtaposition between the two heroes. But I actually like your ideas better.... that it all worked out in the end by divine providence just the way it was meant to be. I could jump on board with that idea!
Interesting ''what-if', but I think it falls apart way too easy. Think about it: wasn't Faramir meant to station in left bank Ithilien and defend that remote area as a Captain of Gondor, while Boromir was likely a General holding right bank defensive positions with whatever's left from Gondor's main army? What he's even supposed to do that close to Mordor when Cair Andros-Osgiliath frontline is so crucial to Minas Tirith and Ithilien clearly not?
And his death would not have push Aragorn to accept his place as a King. Probably other stuff would have happened, but I’m just here to defend my boy Boromir.
@@gonzaloortega5481 Well, in the books Aragorn has zero doubt that he is going to Monas Tirith to lead the free peoples and eventually reclaim the throne.
Deep, I am picking oh him pretty good here :) I actually agree with you 100%. In the book, I found him to be unlikeable.... but also very noble, very smart, super good at his job, a good ruler, and generally a lot more sympathetic than in the movie. Movie Denethor is almost a monster! Staring down Sauron in a Palantir and mostly winning... night after night... BALLER! Saruman only lasted like 10 seconds!
Big D is a very poor father and leader, though. His secrecy and pride and passivity nearly destroyed Gondor. And he cuts Faramir to pieces repeatedly in book and movie.
He’s pretty shitty in the books too dude. Especially to Faramir. And I always understood Faramir as being what Boromir was supposed to be. Such a shame that his father treated him so poorly
@@Black-And-WhiteWorldview8488 yes, but also keep in mind the ring was exploiting his pride. So it was definitely a fault he had, but the ring strengthened it. Tolkien was clear. He was still a good man despite his weakness.
I believe it is intended to show the difference between the two brothers. Faramir had the dream many times and earlier because he is the wiser of the two. Boromir only needed the dream once before acting though. Boromir is more of a man of action than Faramir. The two brothers are great men but lack in areas the other excels in. It also points toward Aragorn being the greatest of men, since he is both wise and a man of action, combining the best of Boromir and Faramir.
Its the small acts of kindness right? If boramir had the dream only he probably would not have taken head of the warning. Having faramir have the dream, being able to confide in his brother, showed trust. Boromir going cause his brother’s worried showed he cared about his brother’s opinions. Extra details to show how every good deed helps keep evil at bay. Then to have boromir basically say aragon is his brother and king mean even more cause there is a higher standard of what brother means.
Alright, so here's another note to think on: While book readers know that while Denethor wasn't a GREAT guy, he had spent years being challenged and influenced to despair by Sauron. Boromir meanwhile was basically an exemplar of humanity. He was beloved by so many. He was brave, strong, generous, and kind. Compassionate. And THAT is what Sauron attacked via the ring. We even see in the movies, as they are just barely on the quest before the crows of Isengard, Boromir teaching the hobbits and sparring with them, and laughing with them. His fall and sacrifice is absolutely devastating, because without Sauron's influence he is also the kind of man anyone would wish to be or know. Which is also why Boromir had to fall: to show just HOW dangerous and powerful the One Ring is. Yes, Denethor fought Sauron through the Palantir. But Boromir and the rest of the Fellowship was within a few feet of Sauron's very essence for months.
Denethor was greatly portrayed as a “villain” you love to hate, but let’s not forget that in the books, he was a genuinely noble man who only started to succumb to a weak mind after an extended time of essentially battling Sauron and Saruman single-handily with the sheer will of his mind. It was only a matter of time before he’d crack.
It didn't help that Sauron pretty much showed Denethor only what he wanted him to see whenever Denethor used the Palantir. He was too strong to be cowed by Sauron, the dark lord had to resort to trickery and paint a picture that Mordor was much stronger than it actually was. "after an extended time of essentially battling Sauron and Saruman single-handily with the sheer will of his mind. " Yep, they (think it was pippin/gandalf) noticed a mysterious light flicker during the night from one of the windows of Denethors residence. No one really knew what that was, think Gandalf suspected something (until Denethor revealed his palantir), I think after that Gandalf put 2 and 2 together and had some KFC 🤣
@robh316 okay, firstly: youre comment is replying to another comment that has absolutely nothing to do with the intent of those whod arrived at Rivendell. The comment above discusses denethors character, and his pros and cons, book vs movie. Secondly, your comment is also irrelevant in another way….since the video your replying to literally states, CLEAR AS DAY, that the fact of the fellowship arriving “randomly” for various reasons, is BOOK ONLY. So yes, there are scenes in the movie showing why they were there, i suppose. But not in the book. So u commented an incorrect “correction”, and u did so whilst replying to a completely irrelevant comment that had nothing to do with it. Its like showing up to a fucking democratic convention, walking up to some guys having a conversation about their weekend plans, and saying theyre wrong because George Bush was actually a democrat. Lmao
I'm grateful that Boromir headed to Rivendell and not Faramir. Equally I am grateful Faramir survived the war. He's virtually as pure blooded a Numenorian as Aragorn. He loves, marries and essentially drags Eówyn out of her black depression. I have no doubt that he made a fine Steward and Prince of Ithilien. Boromir was a great warrior but I doubt that he would have made a great administrator for Ithilien. Equally, I doubt he would have more than glanced at Eówyn never mind fallen in love with her. Battle and glory was his existence.
It's a good point. Well said. I agree there is no way Boromir has time for women and marriage... he is a SOLDER thru and thru. I do wonder how Faramir would have faired with the fellowship. He is much more of a ranger type person, more of a special forces guy to me, and so much more empathetic towards others. He is such a deep thinker. I could see an alternative history where he was with the fellowship, never would have failed the test, and would have been Frodo and Sam's guide thru Mordor instead of Smeagol. I think he would have been epic in that role!
@thegreyhavens167 Having Faramir as their guide would have helped in North Ithilien undoubtedly. Whether he could have safely guided Frodo and Sam through the Dead Marshes I'm no so sure. For the stories sake, let's say he could. Assuming that he knew of the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, I have no doubt that he could have successfully got them past Shelob. Where things fall apart is the getting past the two watchers. Without Frodo being captured and the slaughter caused by the mithril shirt, you have +100 orcs to negotiate. As valiant as Faramir is, he's not pulling that one off. As soon as the watchers sound the alarm it's game over. Unless you can come up with a workable solution of course? 😊😊😊
I agree. I feel they were changed. Seems to me the history of ME very often did NOT go according to plan. (Though maybe I'm just not a pre-destiny person myself ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
@@GMSryBut how do we know that was the plan, though? Because Faramir had the dreams? All that proves is that the gods wanted to give the dreams to Faramir, not that they wanted him to go. What if they anticipated Denethor’s reluctance? What if they anticipated Boromir’s jealousy and used Faramir’s dreams to provoke it? What if they needed Boromir to go instead of Faramir? After all, it was Boromir’s weakness that forced the Fellowship to disband, which eventually thwarted Saruman’s plans, saved and restored Rohan, and allowed Faramir to help Frodo, save Gondor, and deliver the kingdom to Aragorn. Boromir’s demise was necessary. If Faramir had joined the Fellowship, what if he had died instead of Boromir? Could Boromir have done what Faramir did in his place (no, lol)? Sounds a little bit like the gods knew what they were doing, methinks.
Boromir: Hey, I'm looking for help in defending my city against Sauron Elrond: Welcome to the company, Boromir Boromir: What? No, I really just wanted a couple elf guys to help out my dad..... Elrond: Shut up and go travel half way across the world
I really really like this comment :) For me personally, I do not read it as "everything happens for a good purpose" or "Eru has a plan". I think lots of things happen that Eru did not intend: Orcs, Elves dying, the Valar giving Middle Earth to Morgoth, Dwarves being made, etc. And maybe most importantly to this conversation.... Boromir going instead of Faramir 😎 But I get the sentiment you are making and honestly it's super optimistic and really cool. That's a great way to read it! Seems to me that totally works as well.
I know it's not how the book goes... but I actually really like that scene. I think it's just good performances by the actors probably.... but it's really impactful.
In the book, Gimli WASN'T on the council! His father, Gloin, was. He sat next to Frodo and had a little chitchat about Bilbo and Erebor and stuff IIRC. Gloin then sent his son or proposed his son as a member of the fellowship - honestly I don't remember exactly.
Honestly Boromir is a chad. He's just a dude, who just wants the best for his people, and it is that the Ring uses against him, yet even after faltering, he stands back up to do what's right even at the cost of his own life. Maybe he's not at archetypal heroic as Aragorn, but he is far more human.
@harrydugan8237, polite challenge to you there. Tolkien never tells us exactly what happened here, all we get is Boromir's statement at Rivendell. According to Boromir: Faramir had this cool dream over and over... and oh yeah, later he had it once too. In my mind, I always suspected that Boromir was fibbing about having the dream. That being said, even if Boromir did have it once, I would still interpret this as it was mainly Faramir's dream, he had it first, he had it many more times, and that infers to me that the gods were trying to get him to Rivendell. I dunno, what are your thoughts? Do you think I'm way off here?
@The Grey Havens I think uluvitar was trying to help the good guys out, without actually direcrly getting involved. I believe he sent the dream to Farimir, and when Farimir did not act on it right away, events caused his plan to change and sent it to Boromir.
Yep, agree 👍. I also think it was Illuvitar that was organizing it all. Divine Providence or Destiny. But my gut tells me he really wanted Faramir and that's why Boromir was the least successful of the bunch.
@@thegreyhavens167You need to read the books then. Honestly you have several misstatements. No "chance meeting" in this scene. It was the will of Eru to lead them there. Also Boromir did dream of Imaldris. He was not a villain even as you seem to imply here. Denethor mgiht bw a hard man, but he was honorable. He was ruling a dying rwce, threatened by Aragorn as he gleaned that he was Isuldur's heir and might claim the kingship of Gondor. Really what man would voluntarily step down and give power specially if yoyr family has ruled the land with the best of your abilities? He has flaws, even boik Aragorn takes insults to his honor seriously
Well your just WRONG that Boromir is your favorite.... because BILBO IS THE BEST 🤣🤣 OK, if we are being honest I like Boromir as well (don't tell him I said that). He is super relatable. He's not a half-elf prince or eternal wizard.... he's just a person. I really relate to him. Too bad he doesn't get a chance to accomplish more.
Boromir might have lived had he let Faramir answer the call. Tolkien was such a good story writer simple easily overlooked hints left throughout his stories.
Honestly, it's barely mentioned in the book too. I agree 👍. In my mind, he is just looking out for his little brother.... Which makes his end even more tragic and admirable. He's not only protecting Merry and Pip and Gondor, but essentially his little brother too.
Agreed. We would have been so epic. He wouldn't take the ring, would have been humble to Aragorn, and didn't immediately discount the hobbits like his brother. And instead of being a solder, he is more of a sneak special forces kinda of guy... exactly what they needed! Can you imagine a world where Aragorn could go straight on to Minas Tirith like he wanted to, and Faramir was the Sam and Frodo's guide instead of Smeagol?..... EP-IC!!!
Agreed 💯👍. Personally, I always felt he didn't really have the dream, but was looking out for Faramir. Like I don't think he was the perfect fit to be there, but was completely doing the very best he could.
@thegreyhavens167 I dunno I don't think Boromir would of lied, it wasn't his personality. But definitely Faramir wanted to go and Boromir was worried about his brother going so he took charge. Would of been a very different story if Faramir went.
AGREED on Faramir. In my mind (totally my imagination) Faramir could have been Sam and Frodo's guide into Mordor instead of Smeagol... allowing Aragorn to go to Minas Tirith. Can you imagine how baller book Faramir would have been as a guide to Sam and Frodo? Legendary!!!
@@thegreyhavens167 If you were asking for my opinion, which I know you’re not. I would say that faramir has more of an “elf-air” around him like Aragorn. He may have lasted longer than Boromir with regards to the ring but like Aragorn I don’t think he would have lasted forever. I’m curious if faramir had better Ranger skills than boromir or if the were trained equally.
Not if he was ever going to be played by Sean Bean. If he was ever meant to be played by Sean Bean than Illuvater would have made sure that no matter what Tolkien would write Boromir would die.
In the books its also explained that it took Boromir about 6 months to travel to Rivendell as well as not knowing where it was. In the films it looks as if Rivendell is a 5 minute ride from Minas Tirith.
@@thegreyhavens167 Interesting,you are posting about this subject but dismiss knowledge and criticism. By all means assume you know everything but when you are corrected you should take it and grow.
Yes, the movie pronunciation as "Smee-gull" was incorrect. There's an accent over the "e" in Sméagol, which indicates both the "e" and the "a" are pronounced. "SMEE-uh-gol" is the correct pronunciation. "SMAY-uh-gol" also works.
I like how Sauron offered the dwarves 3 of the dwarven rings of power for what they said was just a trival ring a hobbit carried. That was a sus deal for sure
If this had been the case and Boromir stayed behind, this would have meant when Frodo was captured by Faramir then let go to complete his mission. Boromir would've took the ring for himself as he had men at his command to kill Frodo and Sam with Smegul in the forbidden pool. Tolkien was a magnificent writer and hidden plot.
Did he really have the dream now ... 🤔??? Ok, let's review: * Faramir received the dream/summons * It happens night after night after night * Denethor, the bros, the wise men: they discuss it at length many times and agree it's a big deal * Denny won't let Faramir go * Eventually Boromir says "I had the dream once too" and he goes. Denny is unable to stop him. I always read this that Boromir was telling a white lie, and never really had the dream. He just says that to go. He is repeating what Faramir told then. Maybe he wanted to save his home or maybe to protect his little brother. But either way, Faramir was clearly the first choice. What do you think?
Yeah maybe. Well said. But I could imagine a version of events where no one failed: * Faramir becomes the Hobbit's guide into Mordor instead of Smeagol. He is perfect for it (a stealthy/special forces warrior, is not tempted by the Ring at all, knows the lore of the land, and respects the hobbits right from the start... all of those are the opposite of Boromir) * With Faramir leading the Hobbits to Mordor, Aragorn is free to march to Minas Tirith and save Gondor. What do you think? Could this have been Eru's plan all along?
@@thegreyhavens167 fairly good points you put forward. No matter how you twist and end things, it will always come at the expense of something else. It seems that what unfolded in the story had to happen for things to succeed in the end. But that doesn't have to be the case always doesn't it right ?
Agreed. Still a totally good guy and heroic and admirable.... but I think his "perfect" place was in Minas Tirith and not the Fellowship. Can you imagine the attack on Minas Tirith if Boromir was there to lead the defense of the city instead of Denethor? Epic!
Did Tolkien have any (older) brothers, and if so, did he have a difficult relationship with them? Because, while I don't care for biographical readings in general, he certainly seemed to be working out some sort of personal grudges or grievances in the Boromir-Faramir and Saruman-Gandalf contrasts, with the top dogs being portrayed as deeply flawed and their one-step-below counterparts being portrayed as oh-so-much better. Or perhaps Tolkien had issues with whoever the head of the English faculty at Oxford was, and felt that he, Tolkien, was more deserving of the role.
Jonathan .... Throwing shade on Faramir... That's a brave move 😅. Faramir can resist the ring's temptation, is one of the few who stands up to the Witch King, and even gets the girl at the end. Pretty good resume 🤔🤔🤣
As some else said, both brothers had the dream. Faramir had it twice and Boromir had it once. I personally think he may have made that up so he would have more leverage for going himself. Though their are a couple of other points to consider, he was worried about Faramir being able to successfully make that journey(though this too might be more of an ego thing), but the most important point in favor of Boromir is that he and Faramir were very close too each other and as the big brother, Boromir may really have been close enough to Faramir that he truly was worried and he truly had that dream after Faramir had it because of that connection. Also, considering I believe the dream was sent by one of the Vala (or maybe even Eru Illuvatar) in order to underscore to the brothers that this was real and it was important. I can sort of hear Boromir on first hearing about the dream from Faramir becoming a little condescending and at first not giving it much thought until he, too, dreamt the same thing. Then, as he was already quite prideful wanted to get this special task of contact with the elves who no longer visited Gondor. Either way it worked out for the best, because if Faramir had gone then Boromir would have been the one to catch Frodo, Sam and Gollum and I doubt he have let the hobbits go forward. He’d have taken them to Denethor, again, for his father’s praise. And he’d likely have had Gollum kill while Gollum was fishing. That’s assuming he didn’t have the prisoners searched (due to the ring calling out to him) and he’d have found the ring, found out what it really was and tried to use it. And that would have ended the third book a bit sooner. And not for the better. Just good for thought and worth what you paid for it, JTI
I never thought about it that way. I’ve read the book a lot, but I never considered that Faramir being more connected to that dream might mean that he was meant to be in the fellowship.
Maybe? Here's what we know for sure..... Nothing. We only know what Boromir said to the others. He said Faramir had the dream over and over and over, and then he had it one time as well. My personal read of it, he is telling a white lie and never had the dream. But even if he did once, it's clear that Faramir was the first choice.
You forgot the pivotal moment at the end of book one; the influence of the darkness in Boromir and his actions inspired Frodo to go solo as he knew that others may follow Boromirs corruption
Gloin was the Dwarven representative to the Council. Elrond wanted a Dwarven representative on the Fellowship but Gloin was too old and Gimli had conveniently journeyed there with his father
That must add weight to Denethors guilt. He thought he was sending Boromir to an important hobnobbing event, that would bolster his heirs social standing. Turns out it was a deadly dangerous assignment. If he had sent the son he didnt care about, he wouldnt have lost Boromir
Faramir would have never let them get caught, he would have never left them. The ring didn’t affect book Faramir as the movie version shows. He would have led Sam and Frodo a safe way and would have been a great addition.
@@thegreyhavens167 I don't know... but I'm sitting here imagining Frodo and Sam continued as planned, and were picked up in Ithilien by Boromir, this time. We all know how that would've gone down. But assuming Faramir tried to guide Frodo, he may not have been willing to lead him through Cirith Ungol. I think Middle Earth providence meant for exactly this to happen. It either marked Faramir as worthy, or couldn't communicate with Bormir as easily at all, but anticipated that Denethor would send out Boromir. In coming to Faramir, it was perhaps hinting to the Wise that he could be trusted when they arrived in Gondor to find Denethor as he was.
Well, some can say Boromir was destined to be amongst the Fellowship. Boromir failed when tempted by the Ring, which reassured Frodo has was making the correct decision to break from the Fellowship and proceed to Mordor on his own (with Sam).
I agree... he was probably destined to be there and things worked out the way they did because of him. He had an oversized impact on the team compared to almost everyone else. But still, I would wager he was the gods "second choice". They tried to get Faramir, and when that didn't work out, they got a backup. That's all assuming he did have the dream. My personal impression is that he never did, and just said he did once, to be a good big brother.
I agree... heart breaking. In my mind I really feel that Boromir was just looking out for his little brother, and trying to do the right thing. Honestly he fails at times but also makes a great sacrifice not only for the world and his country and two hobbits, but ultimately for his little brother. 🥹
Boromir had the dream. And if I had not tried to take the ring, frodo may not have left the group. And if he had not met faramir, he may not have made it. So who knows, but I do think this is the one case where people did not get the instructions correct.
I mostly agree, though hard to say. It's kinda weird to me to say "that's how it happened and so that's how it needed to happen" but I get it. Your not wrong! Though in my personal opinion, how do we know Boromir actually had the dream? He said Faramir had it and told him about it night after night after night... and then he had it one time too. Honestly, I always pictured it that he was telling a white lie and never had the dream, really. What do you think?
There’s various reasons as to why faramir going probably would’ve resulted in failure. Boromir would have never had his character arc from being almost turned by the ring to giving his life for the fellowship, thus Aragorn wouldn’t have seen true hope for change in the race of men, and wouldn’t have worried about helping Gondor and returning to the throne of Arnor. Boromir was always supposed to go regardless of the fact that faramir saw it in his dreams more than once, so did Boromir
I have been watching these shorts for a few days and now I have a massive urge to go back to Skyrim. Thanks, I suppose. Jokes aside, now I'm also angry at their father. I mean. Angrier than I was before. I'm glad he died. He was a terrible human.
Glad you liked the videos!!! ＼（〇◡ｏ）／ Don't do it! By the nine divines do NOT fire up Skyrim!!! You know if you play for more than a couple hours..... many months of your life will suddenly disappear..... we've all been there, my friend. Stay strong. "Do come baaack..."
@@thegreyhavens167 lmao maybe if I can hold it off till I finish my current game (a plague tale: requiem. Amazing piece of work), I will not feel bad about losing months of my life xD
Nice. I LOVED the first Plague Tale game... and thought the sequel was really good too. I was really surprised more people don't talk about these games more. The scenery is great, the setting is EPIC, they look beautiful, the female lead (in particular) is written really well, and honestly the relationship between the brother and sister is very unique in gaming. It's great stuff. ALSO GIANT WAVES OF RATS ARE EPIC!!!!!!! AHGHHHHHHH
If Boromir had remained in Gondor, he may have rode his men to Helms Deep in their hour of need. He may have also succumbed entirely to the ring when capturing Frodo, Sam & Gollum. Merry & Pippin may not have survived without Boromir either, Faramir was a good captain but Boromir was a great warrior. They needed him in the end to survive the onslaught of orcs.
Wasn’t “gods” that gave him the dream, it was God, as in singular. In Middle Earth there is only One God, Eru Illuvatar, not many gods. The Valar, who some worship, but most just venerate, are more akin to Archangels (with the Maiar, like Gandalf, being lesser angels).
I agree! And I also think it was Eru, but hard to be sure. Ulmo was know to bring dreams as well. But quick note: Tolkien referred to the Valar as "the gods" dozens of times. Seems like if the term is good enough for the author it's good enough for us too, right? Also, he specifically said "Eru does not represent God" and he said "the faith of the Valar are neither analogous not representative of the Christian faith". So I would personally suggest we be a bit careful attaching the Christian mythos here... or at least recognize that it's not the author's intent. What do you think?
From a catholic viewpoint, yes. But these archangels look a LOT like Norse gods and have almost as much freedom of will since eru hardly ever intervenes directly. Sending dreams sounds more like a valar intervention, while the bit that leads to Boromir instead of Faramir going might be Erus doing.
@@Clayne151 In a sense yes. Tolkien did that on purpose, as he wanted a pantheon of “gods” while simultaneously injecting aspects of his catholic christian faith into the work.
You’re wrong, in the books he does call a council. Boromir was only invited because Elrond told him he would found what he was seeking to know there. Boromir came because of the difficulty Gondor was having fighting the armies of Mordor. He heard in a dream one night a mysterious message from Rivendale and that is why he was there.
Bucket, all of this is from the trilogy in the Council of Elrond chapter. We actually don't know anything about the dream except what Boromir tells us... so we only have his perspective on it. Here is what he says: * His brother Faramir had this dream, sent by the gods, to come to Rivendell * He had it over and over, night after night, and wished to go, but he couldn't * Some time later, Boromir also had the dream one time * Boromir decided to go, and no one could really tell him no because he is a baller So we don't know for sure that it was Denethor that would not let Faramir go - that's just an educated guess on my part. But it's pretty clear that Eru (God) sent the dream and called Faramir to Rivendell. But why then did Boromir also have the dream? Two ideas: 1) Could be that he was Eru's second choice when Faramir didn't go 2) My personal view, Boromir was never chosen and never had the dream. He told a white lie. Essentially, he was being a good older brother and went for Faramir. You could totally read it either way. There is no indication of which is true, and Tolkien never mentions it anywhere else. What do you think?
@thegreyhavens167 Thank you so much for the in depth explanation! I love Lotr but am pretty stupid when it comes to lore,so watching your videos teach me so much!
![ILLSLICK - THE KING'S LANDING [Freestyle]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/feIJJnNkTfk/mqdefault.jpg)
Truth be told, movie Boromir is my favorite character in not only the fellowship, but all middle-earth. His impacts to each character are just massive.
For example, Aragorn. He is super flawed, and at the beginning of the journey this reinforces Aragorn’s prejudice against the race of men. However, as Fellowship continues, despite his flaws, Boromir teaches Aragorn how to be a leader of the flawed and the weak. He frequently takes consideration of how the hobbits are physically and emotionally. Something that Aragorn has a hard time with, being raised by elves. When, despite his lowest moment in trying to take to ring from Frodo, Boromir turns on a dime and sacrifices himself in a vane attempt to save Merry and Pippin, Aragorn has a realization that light still lives in the hearts of men. He grasps his hand as he dies and speaks to him with compassion “I will not fail OUR people.”
My point is, Boromir’s problems are what give him his place in the fellowship. He is there to teach Aragorn how to lead the imperfect.
This is a very insightful and heartfelt analysis. Thank you.
You differentiate and specify “movie Boromir”. In your opinion, is he drastically different in the book? I just rewatched Fellowship but haven’t read the books in a few years so can’t remember all the specifics.
What I like about him even more - there are several deleted scenes from extended cut of the movie which are giving entirely new meaning to his character. First of all, he didn't even wanted to go to the council because he knew about ring power over people and he was afraid of it. He was sent there by his father with a mission to retrieve the ring to be used as a weapon to defeat Sauron. So yeah, ring definitely had some influence on him, but, for example, the core reason why he tried to take ring from Frodo is not because of ring's influence, but because of his mission.
I agree wholeheartedly
Really nice point. It's a very nice moment when they're on the mountain and Boromir is talking about how the hobbits are struggling.
As a LOTR hyper-nerd, you’re only mildly correct. Faramir had the dream twice, then Boromir had it once. They both went to their father and asked him what it meant, telling the brothers Imladris was the home of Elrond the half-elven, greatest of lore masters. Faramir felt he should go but Boromir insisted he go, and begrudgingly was allowed to by Denethor his father / steward of Gondor.
Also Gimli wasn’t the one bearing the message of the deal Sauron’s messenger bore (to get the ring from Bilbo in exchange for the remaining Dwarven rings that still existed and that Moria would be theirs forever), it was his father Gloin
Walk, I think Boromir said the dream came to his brother "often", which I read as a lot. I would suggest a lot more than twice - seems to me he had it many times. And then Boromir throws in at the end that - afterwards it came once to him as well.
Tolkien never tells us the truth, so we only have Boromir's word here... but I always felt that he never had the dream. And seeing what a baller Faramir is in the books (awesome leader, super courageous, great fighter) seems to me Denethor is the reason he never left for Rivendell. Just a guess on my part, of course.
What are your thoughts?
Agreed. I left a lot out, like Gloin, just trying to be quick.
I LOVE the council of Elrond in the book... and wish the movie was a bit more like it. The thing that I like the most that they left out was Bilbo. He is a ROCKSTAR in the book. He volunteers to destroy the ring, he sticks up for Aragorn, he is epic!
Also I listen to the Council of Elrond almost every night to fall asleep so I know basically every word of the chapter lol I love it too. If you haven’t heard Phil Dragash’s soundscape audiobook renditions you need to listen asap. LOTR movie music, sound effects and voices are done legitimately perfectly.
That's awesome. I will definitely check that audio book out. Honestly, I usually just don't get into audio books for some reason.... they just don't click for me like reading or movies. But that sounds awesome!
But if the roles were reversed, then Faramir may not have driven Frodo to leave the Fellowship at the right time as Boromir did, and when Frodo came through Ithilien he would be captured by Boromir instead of Faramir, and Boromir would not have let him go. So there was a higher power at work that let Boromir go in his stead.
@calebklingerman7902, book Faramir is an absolute baller and I could see him successfully leading Sam and Frodo to Mt Doom as the main hero there, allowing Aragorn to go to Minas Tirith and be the hero there. Would be an interesting juxtaposition between the two heroes.
But I actually like your ideas better.... that it all worked out in the end by divine providence just the way it was meant to be. I could jump on board with that idea!
Interesting ''what-if', but I think it falls apart way too easy. Think about it: wasn't Faramir meant to station in left bank Ithilien and defend that remote area as a Captain of Gondor, while Boromir was likely a General holding right bank defensive positions with whatever's left from Gondor's main army? What he's even supposed to do that close to Mordor when Cair Andros-Osgiliath frontline is so crucial to Minas Tirith and Ithilien clearly not?
And his death would not have push Aragorn to accept his place as a King. Probably other stuff would have happened, but I’m just here to defend my boy Boromir.
@@gonzaloortega5481 Well, in the books Aragorn has zero doubt that he is going to Monas Tirith to lead the free peoples and eventually reclaim the throne.
@@thegreyhavens167book Faramir was one of my favourite characters, because he was a fuckin genius
Denethor gets too much flak, because of his portrayal in the movies. But mentally battling Sauron and Saruman definitely took their toll on Denethor.
Deep, I am picking oh him pretty good here :)
I actually agree with you 100%. In the book, I found him to be unlikeable.... but also very noble, very smart, super good at his job, a good ruler, and generally a lot more sympathetic than in the movie. Movie Denethor is almost a monster!
Staring down Sauron in a Palantir and mostly winning... night after night... BALLER! Saruman only lasted like 10 seconds!
Big D is a very poor father and leader, though. His secrecy and pride and passivity nearly destroyed Gondor. And he cuts Faramir to pieces repeatedly in book and movie.
@@jackcoleman5955rip big d
He’s pretty shitty in the books too dude. Especially to Faramir. And I always understood Faramir as being what Boromir was supposed to be. Such a shame that his father treated him so poorly
Yeah but that tomato will forever haunt me.
“Sméagol is free!” took me out 😂 I haven’t laughed that hard at a throwaway comment on a TH-cam short in a LONG time
Awww yeah!! (ノ^_^)ノ. Didn't even know you needed this type of Tolkien fun 😎🤣
Glad you liked the video. Thanks for the nice comment.
me too! Had to jump up and run because I almost peed myself and I'm at work! I needed that!
Boromir went of his own free will in his brother's place because he thought he was protecting him. Boromir was a true hero.
Most of all he was a sympathetic character in the end
His heart was in the right place. His downfall was thinking too highly of himself.
@@fragtagninja1633 So basically his pride soon got the best of him, correct?
@@Black-And-WhiteWorldview8488 yes, but also keep in mind the ring was exploiting his pride. So it was definitely a fault he had, but the ring strengthened it. Tolkien was clear. He was still a good man despite his weakness.
Boromir might have had flaws, but he was a chad either way.
"yes, they all just 'randomly' showed up at Rivendell..."
- Eru
🤣🤣🤣🤣. Best comment ever!!!!!!
🙇
"One does not simply walk into Elrond's Council."
I believe it is intended to show the difference between the two brothers. Faramir had the dream many times and earlier because he is the wiser of the two. Boromir only needed the dream once before acting though. Boromir is more of a man of action than Faramir. The two brothers are great men but lack in areas the other excels in. It also points toward Aragorn being the greatest of men, since he is both wise and a man of action, combining the best of Boromir and Faramir.
Its the small acts of kindness right? If boramir had the dream only he probably would not have taken head of the warning. Having faramir have the dream, being able to confide in his brother, showed trust. Boromir going cause his brother’s worried showed he cared about his brother’s opinions.
Extra details to show how every good deed helps keep evil at bay.
Then to have boromir basically say aragon is his brother and king mean even more cause there is a higher standard of what brother means.
God damn it, I was not prepared for that "Smeagol is free" you threw in there....
Facts!😂
Nah this is the way scared the bejezus outta me
Smeagol got colours? Who gave him colours?
Alright, so here's another note to think on:
While book readers know that while Denethor wasn't a GREAT guy, he had spent years being challenged and influenced to despair by Sauron.
Boromir meanwhile was basically an exemplar of humanity. He was beloved by so many. He was brave, strong, generous, and kind. Compassionate. And THAT is what Sauron attacked via the ring.
We even see in the movies, as they are just barely on the quest before the crows of Isengard, Boromir teaching the hobbits and sparring with them, and laughing with them.
His fall and sacrifice is absolutely devastating, because without Sauron's influence he is also the kind of man anyone would wish to be or know.
Which is also why Boromir had to fall: to show just HOW dangerous and powerful the One Ring is. Yes, Denethor fought Sauron through the Palantir. But Boromir and the rest of the Fellowship was within a few feet of Sauron's very essence for months.
Denethor was greatly portrayed as a “villain” you love to hate, but let’s not forget that in the books, he was a genuinely noble man who only started to succumb to a weak mind after an extended time of essentially battling Sauron and Saruman single-handily with the sheer will of his mind. It was only a matter of time before he’d crack.
It didn't help that Sauron pretty much showed Denethor only what he wanted him to see whenever Denethor used the Palantir. He was too strong to be cowed by Sauron, the dark lord had to resort to trickery and paint a picture that Mordor was much stronger than it actually was.
"after an extended time of essentially battling Sauron and Saruman single-handily with the sheer will of his mind. "
Yep, they (think it was pippin/gandalf) noticed a mysterious light flicker during the night from one of the windows of Denethors residence. No one really knew what that was, think Gandalf suspected something (until Denethor revealed his palantir), I think after that Gandalf put 2 and 2 together and had some KFC 🤣
They don't just show up randomly there were several scenes in the films showing why they were going to the meeting
@robh316 okay, firstly: youre comment is replying to another comment that has absolutely nothing to do with the intent of those whod arrived at Rivendell. The comment above discusses denethors character, and his pros and cons, book vs movie.
Secondly, your comment is also irrelevant in another way….since the video your replying to literally states, CLEAR AS DAY, that the fact of the fellowship arriving “randomly” for various reasons, is BOOK ONLY.
So yes, there are scenes in the movie showing why they were there, i suppose. But not in the book.
So u commented an incorrect “correction”, and u did so whilst replying to a completely irrelevant comment that had nothing to do with it.
Its like showing up to a fucking democratic convention, walking up to some guys having a conversation about their weekend plans, and saying theyre wrong because George Bush was actually a democrat. Lmao
My mind is rotten....i read the title doing a Seinfeld impressions in my head.
And what's up with elvish food? 🤣😆😁
I'm grateful that Boromir headed to Rivendell and not Faramir. Equally I am grateful Faramir survived the war. He's virtually as pure blooded a Numenorian as Aragorn. He loves, marries and essentially drags Eówyn out of her black depression. I have no doubt that he made a fine Steward and Prince of Ithilien.
Boromir was a great warrior but I doubt that he would have made a great administrator for Ithilien. Equally, I doubt he would have more than glanced at Eówyn never mind fallen in love with her. Battle and glory was his existence.
It's a good point. Well said. I agree there is no way Boromir has time for women and marriage... he is a SOLDER thru and thru.
I do wonder how Faramir would have faired with the fellowship. He is much more of a ranger type person, more of a special forces guy to me, and so much more empathetic towards others. He is such a deep thinker. I could see an alternative history where he was with the fellowship, never would have failed the test, and would have been Frodo and Sam's guide thru Mordor instead of Smeagol. I think he would have been epic in that role!
@thegreyhavens167 Having Faramir as their guide would have helped in North Ithilien undoubtedly. Whether he could have safely guided Frodo and Sam through the Dead Marshes I'm no so sure. For the stories sake, let's say he could. Assuming that he knew of the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, I have no doubt that he could have successfully got them past Shelob. Where things fall apart is the getting past the two watchers. Without Frodo being captured and the slaughter caused by the mithril shirt, you have +100 orcs to negotiate. As valiant as Faramir is, he's not pulling that one off. As soon as the watchers sound the alarm it's game over. Unless you can come up with a workable solution of course? 😊😊😊
as punishment it cost denethor his favorite son. tldr when eru has a plan fucken go with it
💯 👍 Best comment ever!!!
Fr
Boromir was a good man with a far to soft heart for the task ahead. I seriously love his character.
Knowing Tolkien was Catholic, i would actually say Frodo's vision with Galadriel was more like a Marian apparition.
(Our Lady of Lórien 😆)
Nobody talking about the sound effects but I’m dying laughing 😂😂
It's ok cuz boromir had his ultimate and beautiful arc because he was part of the fellow ship. My favorite character 😢
You know the gods really suck if a single man can counter their plans by saying no.
Agreed.... Especially if that man is just Boromir 🙄🙄🙄
Ah, but did he counter their plans?
@@NomosCharis Yes, since the plan was to get Faramir to Rivendell to join the Fellowship.
I agree. I feel they were changed. Seems to me the history of ME very often did NOT go according to plan.
(Though maybe I'm just not a pre-destiny person myself ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
@@GMSryBut how do we know that was the plan, though? Because Faramir had the dreams? All that proves is that the gods wanted to give the dreams to Faramir, not that they wanted him to go.
What if they anticipated Denethor’s reluctance? What if they anticipated Boromir’s jealousy and used Faramir’s dreams to provoke it? What if they needed Boromir to go instead of Faramir?
After all, it was Boromir’s weakness that forced the Fellowship to disband, which eventually thwarted Saruman’s plans, saved and restored Rohan, and allowed Faramir to help Frodo, save Gondor, and deliver the kingdom to Aragorn. Boromir’s demise was necessary.
If Faramir had joined the Fellowship, what if he had died instead of Boromir? Could Boromir have done what Faramir did in his place (no, lol)?
Sounds a little bit like the gods knew what they were doing, methinks.
In the books Faramir doesnt even want the ring
I'm enjoying these discussions years after the movies came out.
Shows you how good these movies, this is coming from someone who's read the books 3 times.
Boromir: Hey, I'm looking for help in defending my city against Sauron
Elrond: Welcome to the company, Boromir
Boromir: What? No, I really just wanted a couple elf guys to help out my dad.....
Elrond: Shut up and go travel half way across the world
In the end I think Boromir died as a hero trying to save Merry and Pippin.
You're misunderstanding how Tolkien used 'accidents' to show the Will of Eru Illuvatar.
I really really like this comment :)
For me personally, I do not read it as "everything happens for a good purpose" or "Eru has a plan". I think lots of things happen that Eru did not intend: Orcs, Elves dying, the Valar giving Middle Earth to Morgoth, Dwarves being made, etc. And maybe most importantly to this conversation.... Boromir going instead of Faramir 😎
But I get the sentiment you are making and honestly it's super optimistic and really cool. That's a great way to read it! Seems to me that totally works as well.
Remember this day little brother... Today,life is good!!!
I know it's not how the book goes... but I actually really like that scene. I think it's just good performances by the actors probably.... but it's really impactful.
In the book, Gimli WASN'T on the council! His father, Gloin, was. He sat next to Frodo and had a little chitchat about Bilbo and Erebor and stuff IIRC.
Gloin then sent his son or proposed his son as a member of the fellowship - honestly I don't remember exactly.
Broimir: “I never should have come here!”
Why do I suddenly hear the Skyrim fight music start playing in the background ? 😂
Honestly Boromir is a chad. He's just a dude, who just wants the best for his people, and it is that the Ring uses against him, yet even after faltering, he stands back up to do what's right even at the cost of his own life. Maybe he's not at archetypal heroic as Aragorn, but he is far more human.
Actually, Boromir did have the dream as well. Boromir said the dream came to His brother then later the same dream came to him
@harrydugan8237, polite challenge to you there. Tolkien never tells us exactly what happened here, all we get is Boromir's statement at Rivendell. According to Boromir: Faramir had this cool dream over and over... and oh yeah, later he had it once too. In my mind, I always suspected that Boromir was fibbing about having the dream.
That being said, even if Boromir did have it once, I would still interpret this as it was mainly Faramir's dream, he had it first, he had it many more times, and that infers to me that the gods were trying to get him to Rivendell. I dunno, what are your thoughts? Do you think I'm way off here?
@The Grey Havens I think uluvitar was trying to help the good guys out, without actually direcrly getting involved. I believe he sent the dream to Farimir, and when Farimir did not act on it right away, events caused his plan to change and sent it to Boromir.
Yep, agree 👍. I also think it was Illuvitar that was organizing it all. Divine Providence or Destiny. But my gut tells me he really wanted Faramir and that's why Boromir was the least successful of the bunch.
@@thegreyhavens167 yes. I fully agree.
@@thegreyhavens167You need to read the books then. Honestly you have several misstatements. No "chance meeting" in this scene. It was the will of Eru to lead them there. Also Boromir did dream of Imaldris. He was not a villain even as you seem to imply here. Denethor mgiht bw a hard man, but he was honorable. He was ruling a dying rwce, threatened by Aragorn as he gleaned that he was Isuldur's heir and might claim the kingship of Gondor. Really what man would voluntarily step down and give power specially if yoyr family has ruled the land with the best of your abilities? He has flaws, even boik Aragorn takes insults to his honor seriously
Borimir is my FAVORITE character because he’s the only one who displays the angst of the human condition, being in his predicament
Well your just WRONG that Boromir is your favorite.... because BILBO IS THE BEST 🤣🤣
OK, if we are being honest I like Boromir as well (don't tell him I said that). He is super relatable. He's not a half-elf prince or eternal wizard.... he's just a person. I really relate to him. Too bad he doesn't get a chance to accomplish more.
@@thegreyhavens167 Agreed! I never said he was my most loved character!😂
I want to BE Galadriel! But I am, in reality, probably more like Borimir!🤣
Just Saw the three films like 3 days ago and you legit answer all my questions After the movies
Aw yeah!! That's super awesome. Glad you liked the vids!
Boromir might have lived had he let Faramir answer the call. Tolkien was such a good story writer simple easily overlooked hints left throughout his stories.
Agreed! Can you imagine how baller Minas Tirith would have been if Boromir was leading the defense of the city instead of Denethor???? Epic!
Thank you. Short and to the point.
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for the positive vibes!
That is a really important thread and I am disappointed it wasn't in the movies. Very interesting.
Honestly, it's barely mentioned in the book too. I agree 👍. In my mind, he is just looking out for his little brother.... Which makes his end even more tragic and admirable. He's not only protecting Merry and Pip and Gondor, but essentially his little brother too.
Denethor - The Best Dad in Middle Earth!!
🏆🏆🏆
🤣. To be fair, slightly better dad in the book I guess 🤷
Damn, so Eru pretty much got cockblocked by Denethor.... No wonder he died horribly 😂
Sheesh.... freakin Denethor 🙄 Even Eru can handle his grumpy attitude 🤣🤣
I wish Faramir would have been in the fellowship
Agreed. We would have been so epic. He wouldn't take the ring, would have been humble to Aragorn, and didn't immediately discount the hobbits like his brother. And instead of being a solder, he is more of a sneak special forces kinda of guy... exactly what they needed! Can you imagine a world where Aragorn could go straight on to Minas Tirith like he wanted to, and Faramir was the Sam and Frodo's guide instead of Smeagol?..... EP-IC!!!
Wtf the "this is the way" line scared the shit out of me
🤣🤣🤣🤣. YES!!! This IS the way 🤣🤣🤣🤣
All this time I thought you were Sam Wise to my Frodo. But, you're just *BOROMIR.*
Boromir only went because he was looking after his little brother
Agreed 💯👍.
Personally, I always felt he didn't really have the dream, but was looking out for Faramir. Like I don't think he was the perfect fit to be there, but was completely doing the very best he could.
@thegreyhavens167 I dunno I don't think Boromir would of lied, it wasn't his personality. But definitely Faramir wanted to go and Boromir was worried about his brother going so he took charge. Would of been a very different story if Faramir went.
AGREED on Faramir. In my mind (totally my imagination) Faramir could have been Sam and Frodo's guide into Mordor instead of Smeagol... allowing Aragorn to go to Minas Tirith. Can you imagine how baller book Faramir would have been as a guide to Sam and Frodo? Legendary!!!
the irony is that boromir might have lived through the war of the ring if faramir had been the one to go to rivendell.
Dr Cane, yeah that's an interesting thought. I think I agree with you!!
How do you think Faramir would have done in the Fellowship?
@@thegreyhavens167
If you were asking for my opinion, which I know you’re not. I would say that faramir has more of an “elf-air” around him like Aragorn. He may have lasted longer than Boromir with regards to the ring but like Aragorn I don’t think he would have lasted forever. I’m curious if faramir had better Ranger skills than boromir or if the were trained equally.
Not if he was ever going to be played by Sean Bean. If he was ever meant to be played by Sean Bean than Illuvater would have made sure that no matter what Tolkien would write Boromir would die.
Could also be because Boromir was Denethor’s favorite son
Damn I think you’re on to something here.
In the books its also explained that it took Boromir about 6 months to travel to Rivendell as well as not knowing where it was. In the films it looks as if Rivendell is a 5 minute ride from Minas Tirith.
That right headphone "this is the way" scared me to nazgul
“Schmeagol”
Apparently even the way they say it in the movies is wrong. According to Tom Shippy it’s “SMay-Uh-Goal”.
Interesting. I have never heard this? Not sure if it's important or not, but Smeagol never complained so I guess it's ok???
@@thegreyhavens167 Interesting,you are posting about this subject but dismiss knowledge and criticism.
By all means assume you know everything but when you are corrected you should take it and grow.
Yes, the movie pronunciation as "Smee-gull" was incorrect. There's an accent over the "e" in Sméagol, which indicates both the "e" and the "a" are pronounced. "SMEE-uh-gol" is the correct pronunciation. "SMAY-uh-gol" also works.
I actually really like boromir he feels so human and real and his horn is just awesome lol
Yeah, I like Boromir as well. He is very relatable and kind of a baller! But why is it SO FUN to pick on Movie Boromir???? 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@thegreyhavens167 because he’s a silly billy boy 😂
I like how Sauron offered the dwarves 3 of the dwarven rings of power for what they said was just a trival ring a hobbit carried. That was a sus deal for sure
If this had been the case and Boromir stayed behind, this would have meant when Frodo was captured by Faramir then let go to complete his mission. Boromir would've took the ring for himself as he had men at his command to kill Frodo and Sam with Smegul in the forbidden pool. Tolkien was a magnificent writer and hidden plot.
I love Learning the lore piece by piece thank you and to all the lortr fans
Cllaassic Denethor. Wamp wamp waaaaa
Sean Bean has the death curse. Never survive.
He survived in Troja and some other movies.
@@Aldiraider interesting...
"This is the way" 🤣🤣
🤣🤣 🤣 🤣 There is a chance I have the sense of humor of a 10 yr old child. (ノ^_^)ノ
This is the way 😂
Whenever I see a “this is the way” comment I almost pee 😂😭
When your comment is hearted @thegreyhavens ! You the man!
Boromir got the dream. He got the invitation.
Did he really have the dream now ... 🤔??? Ok, let's review:
* Faramir received the dream/summons
* It happens night after night after night
* Denethor, the bros, the wise men: they discuss it at length many times and agree it's a big deal
* Denny won't let Faramir go
* Eventually Boromir says "I had the dream once too" and he goes. Denny is unable to stop him.
I always read this that Boromir was telling a white lie, and never really had the dream. He just says that to go. He is repeating what Faramir told then. Maybe he wanted to save his home or maybe to protect his little brother.
But either way, Faramir was clearly the first choice. What do you think?
Absolutely true! If Faramir became part of the Fellowship, someone else would have failed! So Boromir was kind of the cannon fodder.
Yeah maybe. Well said. But I could imagine a version of events where no one failed:
* Faramir becomes the Hobbit's guide into Mordor instead of Smeagol. He is perfect for it (a stealthy/special forces warrior, is not tempted by the Ring at all, knows the lore of the land, and respects the hobbits right from the start... all of those are the opposite of Boromir)
* With Faramir leading the Hobbits to Mordor, Aragorn is free to march to Minas Tirith and save Gondor.
What do you think? Could this have been Eru's plan all along?
@@thegreyhavens167 fairly good points you put forward. No matter how you twist and end things, it will always come at the expense of something else. It seems that what unfolded in the story had to happen for things to succeed in the end. But that doesn't have to be the case always doesn't it right ?
Makes sense why he was the only one to die
Agreed. Still a totally good guy and heroic and admirable.... but I think his "perfect" place was in Minas Tirith and not the Fellowship. Can you imagine the attack on Minas Tirith if Boromir was there to lead the defense of the city instead of Denethor? Epic!
Did Tolkien have any (older) brothers, and if so, did he have a difficult relationship with them? Because, while I don't care for biographical readings in general, he certainly seemed to be working out some sort of personal grudges or grievances in the Boromir-Faramir and Saruman-Gandalf contrasts, with the top dogs being portrayed as deeply flawed and their one-step-below counterparts being portrayed as oh-so-much better. Or perhaps Tolkien had issues with whoever the head of the English faculty at Oxford was, and felt that he, Tolkien, was more deserving of the role.
Faramir doesn't have enough spine for this anyways
Jonathan .... Throwing shade on Faramir... That's a brave move 😅. Faramir can resist the ring's temptation, is one of the few who stands up to the Witch King, and even gets the girl at the end. Pretty good resume 🤔🤔🤣
He was a metaphor: The One Ring is so corrupting that Man can't even handle the journey to destroy it.
As some else said, both brothers had the dream. Faramir had it twice and Boromir had it once. I personally think he may have made that up so he would have more leverage for going himself. Though their are a couple of other points to consider, he was worried about Faramir being able to successfully make that journey(though this too might be more of an ego thing), but the most important point in favor of Boromir is that he and Faramir were very close too each other and as the big brother, Boromir may really have been close enough to Faramir that he truly was worried and he truly had that dream after Faramir had it because of that connection. Also, considering I believe the dream was sent by one of the Vala (or maybe even Eru Illuvatar) in order to underscore to the brothers that this was real and it was important. I can sort of hear Boromir on first hearing about the dream from Faramir becoming a little condescending and at first not giving it much thought until he, too, dreamt the same thing. Then, as he was already quite prideful wanted to get this special task of contact with the elves who no longer visited Gondor. Either way it worked out for the best, because if Faramir had gone then Boromir would have been the one to catch Frodo, Sam and Gollum and I doubt he have let the hobbits go forward. He’d have taken them to Denethor, again, for his father’s praise. And he’d likely have had Gollum kill while Gollum was fishing. That’s assuming he didn’t have the prisoners searched (due to the ring calling out to him) and he’d have found the ring, found out what it really was and tried to use it. And that would have ended the third book a bit sooner. And not for the better.
Just good for thought and worth what you paid for it,
JTI
I never thought about it that way. I’ve read the book a lot, but I never considered that Faramir being more connected to that dream might mean that he was meant to be in the fellowship.
Boromir had that dream too
Maybe? Here's what we know for sure..... Nothing. We only know what Boromir said to the others. He said Faramir had the dream over and over and over, and then he had it one time as well. My personal read of it, he is telling a white lie and never had the dream. But even if he did once, it's clear that Faramir was the first choice.
Not the skyrim quest sound bit 😂
You forgot the pivotal moment at the end of book one; the influence of the darkness in Boromir and his actions inspired Frodo to go solo as he knew that others may follow Boromirs corruption
Gloin was the Dwarven representative to the Council. Elrond wanted a Dwarven representative on the Fellowship but Gloin was too old and Gimli had conveniently journeyed there with his father
That must add weight to Denethors guilt. He thought he was sending Boromir to an important hobnobbing event, that would bolster his heirs social standing. Turns out it was a deadly dangerous assignment. If he had sent the son he didnt care about, he wouldnt have lost Boromir
Justice for boromir
Not even lamented by his fellowship or even during aragorns coronation or even his brother
Looks like we got some Gondorian propaganda here! 🤔
Look, I love Boromir (don't tell him I said that) but why is movie Boromir so fun to pick on? 😅
Elrond: Boromir you too? Why is everyone here? One does not simply....
Boromir: ....
That Denethor was a piece of work
Finally, someone talks about Sméagol in Mirkwood
Never appreciated it before, but divine intervention plays a HUGE role in this book. Its littered with from even the first chapter
Good vid!! Subed bro❤
Thanks for the positive vibes! I appreciate it!
U really doing great
I'm glad that they simplified that in the movies. I think it would've been really awkward to show.
Only 1 million for g unit? I would like to see his warrant.
This is the way ...
Faramir would have never let them get caught, he would have never left them. The ring didn’t affect book Faramir as the movie version shows. He would have led Sam and Frodo a safe way and would have been a great addition.
Faramir is my favourite!.. I wish i could see him on the fellowship...
Ha! Classic Denethor.
Boromir was there to say: one does not simply walk into Mordor.
Frodo shouldn't have been in the Fellowship. If Boromir got the ring, he could use it to beat Sauron.
Wow. I have read books several times, twice Silmarillion and some Unfinished stories but I didn't know or remember that.
Don't listen to this it isn't accurate
wonder how things would've turned out otherwise... It all worked out since Boromir convinced Frodo to do what he had to.
Good point! Though I could see an alternate universe where Faramir is Sam and Frodos guide instead of Gollum? What do you think?
@@thegreyhavens167 I don't know... but I'm sitting here imagining Frodo and Sam continued as planned, and were picked up in Ithilien by Boromir, this time. We all know how that would've gone down.
But assuming Faramir tried to guide Frodo, he may not have been willing to lead him through Cirith Ungol.
I think Middle Earth providence meant for exactly this to happen. It either marked Faramir as worthy, or couldn't communicate with Bormir as easily at all, but anticipated that Denethor would send out Boromir.
In coming to Faramir, it was perhaps hinting to the Wise that he could be trusted when they arrived in Gondor to find Denethor as he was.
Oh, I just realized: perhaps Gandalf the White thought this very thing when making his decision to save Faramir from the pyre.
Well, some can say Boromir was destined to be amongst the Fellowship. Boromir failed when tempted by the Ring, which reassured Frodo has was making the correct decision to break from the Fellowship and proceed to Mordor on his own (with Sam).
I agree... he was probably destined to be there and things worked out the way they did because of him. He had an oversized impact on the team compared to almost everyone else. But still, I would wager he was the gods "second choice". They tried to get Faramir, and when that didn't work out, they got a backup.
That's all assuming he did have the dream. My personal impression is that he never did, and just said he did once, to be a good big brother.
One of my fave, heartbreaking facts x
I agree... heart breaking.
In my mind I really feel that Boromir was just looking out for his little brother, and trying to do the right thing. Honestly he fails at times but also makes a great sacrifice not only for the world and his country and two hobbits, but ultimately for his little brother. 🥹
Boromir had the dream. And if I had not tried to take the ring, frodo may not have left the group. And if he had not met faramir, he may not have made it. So who knows, but I do think this is the one case where people did not get the instructions correct.
I mostly agree, though hard to say. It's kinda weird to me to say "that's how it happened and so that's how it needed to happen" but I get it. Your not wrong! Though in my personal opinion, how do we know Boromir actually had the dream? He said Faramir had it and told him about it night after night after night... and then he had it one time too. Honestly, I always pictured it that he was telling a white lie and never had the dream, really. What do you think?
There’s various reasons as to why faramir going probably would’ve resulted in failure. Boromir would have never had his character arc from being almost turned by the ring to giving his life for the fellowship, thus Aragorn wouldn’t have seen true hope for change in the race of men, and wouldn’t have worried about helping Gondor and returning to the throne of Arnor.
Boromir was always supposed to go regardless of the fact that faramir saw it in his dreams more than once, so did Boromir
The hand of Eru nudges them together
I have been watching these shorts for a few days and now I have a massive urge to go back to Skyrim.
Thanks, I suppose.
Jokes aside, now I'm also angry at their father. I mean. Angrier than I was before. I'm glad he died. He was a terrible human.
Glad you liked the videos!!! ＼（〇◡ｏ）／
Don't do it! By the nine divines do NOT fire up Skyrim!!! You know if you play for more than a couple hours..... many months of your life will suddenly disappear..... we've all been there, my friend. Stay strong.
"Do come baaack..."
@@thegreyhavens167 lmao maybe if I can hold it off till I finish my current game (a plague tale: requiem. Amazing piece of work), I will not feel bad about losing months of my life xD
Nice. I LOVED the first Plague Tale game... and thought the sequel was really good too. I was really surprised more people don't talk about these games more. The scenery is great, the setting is EPIC, they look beautiful, the female lead (in particular) is written really well, and honestly the relationship between the brother and sister is very unique in gaming. It's great stuff.
ALSO GIANT WAVES OF RATS ARE EPIC!!!!!!! AHGHHHHHHH
A one million dollar bounty! 😅😅😅
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I’d like to add something about “the gods”. In the LOTR universe there aren’t many gods, but rather a singular God, who Tolkien called Eru Iluvitar.
Wow. Im feeling this 😢
If Boromir had remained in Gondor, he may have rode his men to Helms Deep in their hour of need. He may have also succumbed entirely to the ring when capturing Frodo, Sam & Gollum. Merry & Pippin may not have survived without Boromir either, Faramir was a good captain but Boromir was a great warrior. They needed him in the end to survive the onslaught of orcs.
Wasn’t “gods” that gave him the dream, it was God, as in singular. In Middle Earth there is only One God, Eru Illuvatar, not many gods. The Valar, who some worship, but most just venerate, are more akin to Archangels (with the Maiar, like Gandalf, being lesser angels).
I agree! And I also think it was Eru, but hard to be sure. Ulmo was know to bring dreams as well.
But quick note: Tolkien referred to the Valar as "the gods" dozens of times. Seems like if the term is good enough for the author it's good enough for us too, right? Also, he specifically said "Eru does not represent God" and he said "the faith of the Valar are neither analogous not representative of the Christian faith". So I would personally suggest we be a bit careful attaching the Christian mythos here... or at least recognize that it's not the author's intent. What do you think?
From a catholic viewpoint, yes.
But these archangels look a LOT like Norse gods and have almost as much freedom of will since eru hardly ever intervenes directly.
Sending dreams sounds more like a valar intervention, while the bit that leads to Boromir instead of Faramir going might be Erus doing.
@@Clayne151
In a sense yes. Tolkien did that on purpose, as he wanted a pantheon of “gods” while simultaneously injecting aspects of his catholic christian faith into the work.
You’re wrong, in the books he does call a council. Boromir was only invited because Elrond told him he would found what he was seeking to know there.
Boromir came because of the difficulty Gondor was having fighting the armies of Mordor. He heard in a dream one night a mysterious message from Rivendale and that is why he was there.
Was this in the original trilogy? Or the silmarillion?
Bucket, all of this is from the trilogy in the Council of Elrond chapter. We actually don't know anything about the dream except what Boromir tells us... so we only have his perspective on it.
Here is what he says:
* His brother Faramir had this dream, sent by the gods, to come to Rivendell
* He had it over and over, night after night, and wished to go, but he couldn't
* Some time later, Boromir also had the dream one time
* Boromir decided to go, and no one could really tell him no because he is a baller
So we don't know for sure that it was Denethor that would not let Faramir go - that's just an educated guess on my part. But it's pretty clear that Eru (God) sent the dream and called Faramir to Rivendell. But why then did Boromir also have the dream? Two ideas:
1) Could be that he was Eru's second choice when Faramir didn't go
2) My personal view, Boromir was never chosen and never had the dream. He told a white lie. Essentially, he was being a good older brother and went for Faramir.
You could totally read it either way. There is no indication of which is true, and Tolkien never mentions it anywhere else. What do you think?
@thegreyhavens167 Thank you so much for the in depth explanation! I love Lotr but am pretty stupid when it comes to lore,so watching your videos teach me so much!
Is that little drum sound at the start of the video from the medal of Honor games?
Is that sound effect in the beginning from Return to Castle Wolfenstein?
Close.... It's the new quest sound from Skyrim 😅
@@thegreyhavens167 Ah yeah... funny how how sounds are so similar
I feel like Boromir is the Cliffjumper of the group.
That makes Boromir so much cooler.