The Decision That SAVED The Lord of the Rings
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ค. 2024
- 🔵 𝗦𝘂𝗽𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁 𝗣𝗲𝗻𝘁𝗲𝘅 𝗼𝗻 𝗣𝗮𝘁𝗿𝗲𝗼𝗻 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝗯𝗼𝗻𝘂𝘀 𝘃𝗶𝗱𝗲𝗼𝘀 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗺𝗼𝗿𝗲: / pentexproductions 🔵
This video essay looks at The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King, and explains how the decision to remove one scene saved not only Return of the King, but the Lord of the Rings trilogy as a whole.
While some changes were made to the end scene of Return of the King at Mount Doom, with Frodo, Sam, and Gollum, the real change was to remove the deleted scene of the Aragorn vs Sauron fight.
Including the scene where Aragorn fights Sauron would have, in my opinion, ruined not just Return of the King, but the Lord of the Rings trilogy as a whole.
This LOTR video essay uses behind the scenes footage, Peter Jackson interviews, and DVD special features from the LOTR: Extended Edition DVD Box Set to explain in detail the decision that saved the Lord of the Rings.
00:00 - Introduction
00:58 - The small change: Part I (Frodo at Mount Doom)
02:55 - The small change: Part II (Saved in the edit)
04:32 - The big change (The decision that saved the Lord of the Rings)
06:43 - Why including the scene would have ruined LOTR
11:20 - Some fun behind the scenes stuff
12:01 - Conclusion
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If you want to see more Lord of the Rings movie essays then please subscribe and let me know you liked it!
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Opening music: Early Avril, Unicorn Heads (TH-cam Audio Library)
Ambient music: www.bensound.com/royalty-free...
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SOURCES
How Star Wars was Saved in the Edit (RocketJump): • How Star Wars was save...
Return of the King (Extended Edition) DVD special features:
• From Book to Script: Forging the Final Chapter
• Abandoned Concept: Aragorn Battles Sauron
• Filming “The Return of the King”: Cameras in Middle-earth
• Christopher Lee interview: From Book to Script (Fellowship of the Ring (Extended Edition) DVD special feature - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
FYI for people just discovering this video: If liked it, then you'll enjoy my newer, better LOTR videos (like this one about how King Theoden is: th-cam.com/video/lgQqYTH1lQQ/w-d-xo.html)
Also this video got copyright claimed and completely de-monetised for me, which sucks since it's such a popular one. Watching the other LOTR videos on my channel, or subscribing, really helps.
I also have a Patreon page where there are bonus videos (including one about why Boromir is the best charcter in the Fellowship): www.patreon.com/posts/patron-exclusive-98045040
Thanks for watching!
the yt algo working in mysterious ways. i enjoyed this a lot
Aragorn: "For Frodo"
Pippin: "For second breakfast."
best 1 ive seen
What about elevenses?
Legolas: "to show off doing some elvish parcour"
Gandalf: “You fool of a Took!”
I don't think he knows about second breakfast.
"Even the smallest decision can change the course of the whole franchise"
Very true these days, with so many bad decisions about, ruining franchises/remakes.
Hahahahah
I think, that calling LOTR a franchise is kinda insulting to it.
@@capulet6669 Legendarium, then?
@@kirillzakharov7336 much better
Aragorn: "For Frodo"
A random gondor soldier: "who the hell is Frodo?"😂
Lmao this was great, I can legit imagine a clueless Gondor soldier asking this out loud
In the book everyone knew who he was at that point.
Aragorn : "I wasn't talk to you, grunt."
One Finnish comicbook artist actually made a pretty funny short story about the ending of the Lord of the Rings from the perspective of the common soldier. Basically the soldiers are wounded and tired from the fight and finding their friends and familymembers dead and behold how the evil wizards castle falls down. Then the wizard and the king bring up two halflings and go "Our diversion allowed these two to destroy the evil artefact and finally kill the evil wizard." while the halflings are like "I lost one of my fingers." and "I lost 15 kilos of weight on the trip.". Then the king says that bards are working on songs for the halflings and the soldiers can tell their grandkids that they saw those two halflings with their own eyes.
Its ok, noone heard Aragorn anyway :D He whispered that line to an army :D Its not a plothole or anything, actually it makes perfect sense, because - as you wrote - none of the soliders would get it very much. It was only directed to the company directly next to him, the rest of the fellowship. :-)
Im convinced that if the trilogy was made today, they would have a big CGI battle between Aragorn and Sauron, a battle like Wonderwoman's lol. If you dont believe me, just look at the Hobbit, where they had Thorin fight Azog (who wasnt even alive in the books)
Exactly. At the end of the video I was thinking, god just imagine if they had been able to put all that thought into writing The Hobbit.
And it was dain who killed azog too
Lotr movies were really made in the best possible time... CGI was good enough to create the great fantasy world, cities, battles etc. yet it wasn't good enough to be overused in places where practical tricks and make-up worked as well (or even better for that matter). Also there are other reasons, but I won't go into that...
Seriously, why did Jackson decide to let Azog live in the movies? Couldn't he just Bolg having his personal revenge against Thorin for killing his father like in the book?
@@magallanesagustin4952 a lot of what Jackson had to do was dictated by the studio. Warner Brothers acquired New Line and had it in their head that the Hobbit was going to be a second LotR. They basically emotionally blackmailed Jackson into directing by threatening to move the whole production out of NZ if he wouldn't play ball
"making a film requires thousands of decisions"
insert Saruman "TENS OF THOUSANDS" (battle horns blaring)
I imagined that perfectly, voices, horn and all. xD
but my lord, there is no such director!
@@emerylafleur tuduuu *cut to Christopher Nolan standing in the Isengard courtyard
@@OnionChoppingNinja *cut to David Cronenberg strolling through the Black Gates of Mordor...
@@OnionChoppingNinja meh .. Nolan is overrated
I can't see how any movie franchise will ever top this trilogy
The magic and emotion you experience watching this trilogy is completely unparalleled in any other movie viewing experience.
Well other series can be a masterpiece in their own genre but doing an epic grand scale story like this would be difficult
@@InfinitePublics But how can you point to a questionable decision made by a character in the movie and use that to argue it is somehow a flaw in the movie? Are the movies at fault because Boromir tried to take the ring and use it for good while it wasn’t a good idea? Besides, these tactical decisions are not as clear cut - time was running short on the mumakil charge.
@@InfinitePublics What the fuck?
Did you even pay attention to the films?
Helm’s Deep:
- The orcs already breached the gate, and there are no further barriers in the Hornburg from there to the throne hall.
- The orcs ALSO flooded in through the big wall, and there are no further barriers from there to the throne hall.
- Therefore, the only gate they could retreat to WAS the one at the throne hall.
So now they are cornered, trapped, nowhere left to go. Makes sense. Theoden and Aragorn realizes this too. So they ride out and meet them. There’s nothing dumb about that final charge.
Aragorn remembered Gandalf’s words, and he knew then that help would come.
The only flaws in this battle are the actual fortifications/defenses of the Hornburg (it is missing MORE GATES).
- It helps if you actually know the layout of Helm’s Deep.
Minas Tirith:
- The oliphants are practically immune to arrows. We see this in the film. Of course not LITERALLY ‘immune’, but you know what I mean. Therefore, shooting them from the walls of the city has no effect.
- As we see Eowyn do, charging at their legs and slashing away is quite effective for dealing with them.
- Also, I think you’re forgetting that those who charged at them was the army of ROHAN. I’m certain that Minas Tirith couldn’t fit all of those horses and soldiers in it, and even if it could, it would be so cramped that they would not be able to fight very well if the orcs came through the gate.
- Therefore, having them out in the fields was the only way to make use of them. By the way, Rohan came unanticipated, for Denethor, so he could not order them all to go to the city.
@@InfinitePublics ah yes, the greatest battle of all time in cinematic history, one that all battle scenes thrive to be. Bad because poor tactical decisions by a king who was corrupted by years and has to learn how to lead again.
"It was not what Tolkien imagined. We realized it was totally demeaning to what Aragorn was doing. Aragorn's heroism is not a one-on-one duel with a big villain. His heroism is his attempt to put his own life and the life of his troops on the line in the vague hope and dream that it somehow may give Frodo and Sam that little opportunity to help them complete their mission."" -- Peter Jackson on why he cut Sauron & Aragorn's duel.
It's strange Jackson only realized this after filming the scene for 3-days, but better the revelation come late than never. We are very lucky a director and screenwriters who understood the core themes of Tolkien's work were in charge.
Or could be that studio wanted that ending... Showpiece fight...
Maybe Jackson knew it from the beginning, but this was his only chance to film Aragorn vs Sauron duel and he just couldn't resist
Lmao this is director-speak for "we watched it back and it looked dumb"
@@berserker96 hey, at least he recognized it and admitted it. Many people wouldnt be willing to
Actually the very fact that Jackson even considered this means that he did not really understand the work he was adapting. After losing the ring Sauron becomes a disembodied spirit for a thousand years. Even with his partial recovery he does not have the physical power that he had at the end of the Second Age when the confrontation with Isildur occurs. Sauron's strength rests on the might of his mind (as symbolised by the eye) and the control of those servants at his command, not his physical prowess.
even when I first read the books as a stupid fourteen year old, more than forty years ago, I was struck by that one scene after the battle of Minis Tirith, where Aragorn tells the remaining leaders of the armies that they must march to Mordor, to distract the Eye of Sauron, to give the Ringbearer time. That was also why he revealed himself in the Palantir. To distract Sauron. Because Sauron, being evil, cannot imagine that a powerful person, a King like Aragorn, would NOT take up the Ring and wield it. THAT is the message of the book; that evil cannot understand good, and thus good will be able to defeat it.
Harry Potter also did this but in a more cheesy way.
@@sbraypaynt What ? The plot is completely different.
@@sbraypaynt Parallels do not a copy make, you can make parallels between almost any piece of fiction because there are these things called "tropes", now to be fair with you, Tolkien did create many tropes which were later used by Rowling, but utilizing tropes introduced by a previous writer is not copying, Tolkien himself utilized some tropes that come from mythology and even previous writers, ever heard of Wagner's Ring ? You can make a very big parallel between it and Tolkien's Ring, as you did with the horcruxes, and some even go so far as to say Tolkien "copied" Wagner for his magical macguffin, but i disagre, just as i disagree with your point, because a story is not made by tropes, plot and characters are just as if not more important so making random parallels and shouting "hah copy" is lazy and superficial literary analysis.
That is not even getting into how fauty many of your parallels are,(which i could get into but i decided to attack your overall attitude and general argument rather than individual examples) they often seem right on the surface but once you think about it they stop making sense (calling Sam stupid ? That is pretty insulting especially coming from someone who probably calls themself a "tolkien fan"), and then there are the others which are so generic you literally could call anything a copy of anything else on those grounds (dae both have giant spiders ? One of them must be a copy)
I agree with Sqysh.
Being inspired by another's work is one thing, but to just take key elements move them around a little bit and put some paint over it is not being very original or creative.
Case in point: The Dark Tower, Stephen King said he was inspired by Lord of the Rings to write an epic tale of a hero and their quest and fight against a great evil and yet he created something that has almost no similarities to the story that inspired it.
A worse example of stealing from Tolkien is The Sword of Shanara.
I got about fifteen pages into and put it down. What tripe.
I always thought: "why would they show Sauron having a physical body if the whole point of the trilogy is Sauron needs the ring because without it, he can't have a physical body?"
Another way the Black Gate scene reinforces the theme of friendship and fellowship is musically -- Howard Shore's "Fellowship theme" accompanies the charge Aragorn and company, this time in the form of a huge choral version, suggesting that the Fellowship has in this crucial moment grown well beyond its original 9 members and now encompasses everyone who joined Aragorn at the Black Gate, many voices singing the song that represents support for Frodo's quest. It's perhaps my favorite musical moment in the trilogy for that reason.
Completely agree (And if I remember correctly, the choral part sings Aragorn's oath to Frodo. Every detail was so intently crafted!). That scene along with the one with Frodo reminiscing by the lake "I wish the ring had never come to me" are the ones that put Howard Shore on my top composers list
The other inconsistent thing: Sauron lost the ability to appear as Annatar after he fell into the waters when Númenor sank, if I remember my Tolkien correctly.
Yep. Correct.
Plus, he lost the ability to appear in any physical form at all after he lost the Ring... right?
@@zekegore6470 yep. Iirc, his form was the "eye" atop Barad-dûr.
@@davidho1427 he has a physical form in the book
@@davidho1427 Actually, the literal eye wasn't in the book. The "Eye Of Sauron" was a metaphor for his many spies and servants. Unfortunately Peter Jackson decided to use a literal Eye atop Barad-dur in the movies.
I wish the creators of Game of Thrones had the same level of appreciation of the source material that we see from everyone who worked on the Lord of the Rings films.
I'm not defending Dumb&Dumber or Got because i'm not into that show at all, even the early seasons didn't get me.
But for what i know, the creators and screenwriters didn't have a source material after 5th or 6th season. They should have ended the series with an open ending (like they kinda did) with Daenerys sailing to Westeros (i think?)
My sense is that Jackson understood LotR so well that, even if Tolkien had died before writing the final chapters, Jackson would have been able to craft an ending that fit the themes of the book, even while working from an outline.
@Berserking Bishop but didn't they follow that ending? Without having an idea of how to get there (or not caring at all because they where already making negotiations with Disney to make a Star Wars trilogy.
Even George Martin have no clear idea of how to get to ending he had in mind, or even if he will modify that ending.
@@reimaginethesounds6694 they actually had, but chose to skip many plot arcs and character arcs, like Martells', Jane Pool's, The Lady Stoneheart, etc. GRRM said "they could have gone to 11,12,13 seasons", whereas HBO proposed at least 10 seasons. Also, if they struggled with screenwriting, HBO proposed a solution for that, a common one actually - hire screenwriting team, which they didn't. Hence, they wanted to end Game of thrones asap and they wanted to end them themselves having all glory for themselves, falling out with GRRM, not including him for final seasons and the sheer magnitude of folly which they never realized.
@@GarrettPetersen I’m not so sure considering he butchered the ending of Return of the King and the Hobbit was done very poorly, even with source material available. If he couldn’t pull these together with source material available, what makes you think he could do it without source material?
I bet the Amazon series will give no thought or care about Tolkien's vision.
Don't watch it... let others vet it for you... don't sully the memories of great events, let them flourish in your mind, while expelling that which attempts to subvert it.
Token?
The first screenshot they released does look like they do.
@@Simlan12345 where can I find said screenshot?
It'll be blacked to high hell.
Aragorn fighting Sauron would've been very cool, but yes wrong for many reasons.
Hats off to PJ, Fran, Philippa, the cast, and everyone who worked on the trilogy! You had confidence in and faithfully adapted Tolkien's work to the best of your abilities. And you produced a masterpiece of cinema that is beloved audiences around the world.
Amazon sure as hell won't do the same!!
Sauron had no reason to show up there. For him, Aragorn was just a nasty fly. His army outnumbered Gondor's at least by the factor 10. Plus, without the Ring, his power was limited and he couldn't take a physical form.
@@Nikioko - There's a little more to it than that, but overall yes, Sauron didn't see Aragorn as a real threat.
He _did_ however believe that Aragorn was in possession of the ring, and when Aragorn called him up in the Palantir used that as an opportunity to taunt and goad Aragorn into attacking, thinking he could overwhelm Aragorn's small and battered remaining forces to reclaim the ring. From Sauron's perspective, his goading worked, and he "tricked" him into a suicide attack that would deliver the ring right into his hands, unaware that he was being misled.
@@KingBobXVI Yes. When Pippin looked into the Palantir, Sauron first thought that Saruman took the Ring and forced Pippin to look into the Palantir to let him know. After the destruction of Isengard and Aragorn looking into the Palantir, he concluded that Aragorn got both the Palantir and the Ring and is now on his way to claim his throne in Gondor. That's why he started the War of the Ring early because he was certain that if Minas Tirith fell, he would get the Ring as well. And he enforced that also by showing Denethor his army through the Palantir, robbing him every hope for victory.
And the fact that Frodo felt pity for Gollum up to the end is the reason why he could withstand the Ring that long. Sam felt anger for Gollum and wanted to have him killed. So when he took the Ring while Frodo was kept prisoner in Cirith Ungol, it immediately consumed him and got visions of turning Mordor into a giant garden.
But about the scene: Gandalf knew from Faramir that Frodo and Sam went to Mordor using the pass of Minas Morgul, and since his only foolish hope for victory was the destruction of the Ring, the plan was to draw Sauron's attention from the pass to the Black Gate to save the hobbits' concealment and buy them some time. And when Sauron's Mouth presented Frodo's belongings, he first like all the others thought that they caught Frodo and all was in vain. But the Mouth talked too much and called Frodo just a spy, of which Gandalf concluded that he didn't find the Ring and knew about Frodo's real mission. Which meant that Sauron only had Frodo's stuff, but not Frodo himself and the Ring.
@@Nikioko - yep, I love how intricate the story is when you really dig into the weeds.
For Sam though, I came out with a different impression - the ring *doesn't* work on Sam, the book just tells how it tries to tempt him - and it's nothing to do with Sam's dislike of Gollum. It shows him visions of the great garden and how he could lord over minions to keep it, but he quickly thinks that this would be an unsatisfying prospect anyway, since he could never truly enjoy the whole thing, and it wouldn't be personal if not done by his hand. The ring was ultimately unable to tempt Sam (and to a lesser extent, Frodo) because it (and Sauron) doesn't understand the desires of hobbits, and only thinks in terms of grandiose displays of power.
@@Nikioko That was only so in the movies.
In the books however its a little more vague when Frodo and Sam encounters Gollum, Gollum tells them how he saw Sauron and that he now only had 4 fingers on his black hand.
So alot of fans conclude that Sauron was able to take physical form, in the books at least.
yeah, aragorn fighting sauron would've been wrong. To be fair though, it would've looked really cool. Maybe as a nightmare sequence early in the film and aragorn is like "can i really do this?" giving him more inner turmoil
Maybe like how they included the Scouring of the Shire in Galadriel's mirror for Frodo?
@@PentexProductions That's what's odd about it is they say "But Aragorn didn't fight Sauron in the book", and yet the Shire did get scoured in the book. So they didn't include things that weren't in it and cut big things that were.
@RockMeAmadeus Okay, but my point is all the objections are weak. "It doesn't make sense" or "It's not in the book" or "It doesn't fit the theme". Aragorn, a Numenorian, the descendent of the guy who cut the Ring from Sauron's hand, fighting 1 v 1 against Sauron doesn't fit the theme? Why? If it was Gimli fighting Sauron, okay. But Aragorn? He's the one who makes the most sense. I'm not saying they should have done it. I'm just questioning how people justify that it was right not to do it.
I wouldnt go so far as to say it ruining the film. The important part is not having Aragorn win, and Suaron realizing he has been tricked. It is actually within Saurons character to think Aragorn has the ring and wanting him destroyed.
@@cbalan777 - It doesn't fit the theme not because Aragorn wasn't the "right" person to fight Sauron, but because fighting Sauron in person _at all_ detracts from the underlying theme of the movie, which is that the course of history isn't only set by powerful kings and great battles and whatnot. The most important themes were comradery, determination, and in a way, fighting internal struggles represented by the ring's corruption. Aragorn went to the Black Gate to buy some time for the hobbits to destroy the ring. If he had a 1v1 showdown with Sauron, especially if he _won_ that fight, it would have completely negated the entire plot of the movies regarding the ring: if they can just kill Sauron in a straight fight because they have plot armor, why bother with the sneaky ring quest?
I thought it was just a false memory for almost two decades where Aragorn fought Sauron but it was actually filmed
Turns out, Sauron was actually a cave troll the entire time!
@@KingBobXVI Lord of the Trolls
They do have the scene in the Aragorn games.
It could be that you just remember the scene of the War of the Last Alliance, where Isildur faces Sauron and defeats him by cutting his ring finger off, and in your head Isildur and Aragorn got confused with each other. The scene was in the prologue of The Fellowship of the Ring.
we do a little trolling
"For Frodo" got me tearing up, man!
Yet another great video. 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
Aragorn is so great in these films.
Yup, every time. Pretty much every second of every scene in the entire trilogy hits hard. Harder than you would think, and almost harder than it has any right to.
Sam:hey guys remember me?
But what they got so wrong was the killing of the “mouth of Sauron”.
Of course, Aragon was a mighty warrior. But he believed in mercy as Frodo did.
How do you really beheaded the mouth of Sauron he would not have been the worthy King .
There's another parallel from the making of the trilogy: They were toying with the idea of bringing Arwen, of all people, to the siege of Helm's Deep. Tellingly, over the course of The Two Towers, they quickly realised this is not who Arwen is and isn't something she needs to be to in order to be an impactful and admirable female character. Aragorn didn't fall for her because she's some "elven warrior babe", but because of who she is on the inside, her moral fibre, as well as her beauty. Her father's a capable fighter, but also a great scholar, and that runs in the family, with Arwen being more of a learned person and diplomat too, not a combatant. She's brave, but she's not a lesser character because she doesn't show up at every battle.
It also didn't make sense narrativelly: Why would she come to the siege if she didn't join the Fellowship to stay with Aragorn at all times ? And there's another potential complication: Established Hollywood clichés would demand a love triangle between Arwen, Éowyn and Aragorn while they're all at Helm's Deep. This would also rewrite the characterisation of Éowyn and Aragorn during the course of The Two Towers and The Return of the King, even pretty significantly. The Lothlórien elven soldiers at the siege, while an addition, at least avoid impacts on the narrative (other than killing off Haldir) and they add a nice sentiment of "elves and humans working together again, without snobbery and prejudice".
Yeah, both decisions - Arwen at the siege, Aragorn fighting a Sauron in physical form again - would be what you'd see in a Hollywood flick, especially of that time (late 90s, early 2000s), but I'm glad they realised they were making something different and went another route.
Now imagine if they didn't have Bilbo getting knocked out during the Battle of the Five Armies. Running around and killing orcs left and right... They instead had him take part in the story early on (warning people, but not doing much fighting, obviously), but then got him knocked out, as in the book. Thorin fighting someone specific is an addition more akin to the elves at the siege. He isn't wounded mortally by someone random off-screen, but he gets a proper nemesis who's a grounded (not supernatural) character like him. When Thorin dies, it isn't just some random wound on the battlefield, but a fight that mattered, and the essence of his farewell with Bilbo (after B. wakes up post-battle) is still identical. In the book, it was an afterthought. In the film, it gained a little extra impact, much like Aragorn's invented "For Frodo" (no such line is uttered in the book, that chapter ends with Pippin getting knocked out a bit, similarly to Bilbo, something that doesn't occur in the film).
I love their restraint. Even when they added some things or didn't include them, they at least always focused on what the gist of the story and its impacts on the characters was.
Indeed, removing Aragorn v Sauron / Arwen at Helms Deep are similar changes and made for similar reasons. Both the right decision to keep the narrative focused, the themes consistent, and to ensure the adaptation remains faithful to Tolkien, even if there are changes.
@@PentexProductions I only wish they had realized that for Faramir at the falls.
Well, the basic idea was to substitute Elrond's sons by Arwen.
@RockMeAmadeus "...trouble with having two chicks..." Christ, could you be a more sexist ass if you tried?
@RockMeAmadeus This may come as a surprise to you, but for many people doing the right thing, in this case calling you out on your bullshit, is its own reward. Maybe you should pay more attention to the moral of the story you’re watching a video about.
The LOTR trilogy had confidence in the material and adapted it well.
They wouldn't start butchering the material and adding in additional villains/fights like that until the Hobbit.
I think this shows how they resisted the temptation to implement some of their more outlandish ideas with LOTR, but (for a variety of production issues) some of them made it into the Hobbit films.
It's one of the reasons I cant stand the Hobbit. That, and the roller coaster ride in the goblin caves.
the films are an adaptation of the books. Its not accurate at all. Why not have Aragorn fight Sauron? Its not like the trilogy is a direct 1 to 1 adaptation it takes many, many liberties. Sauron is not just a big lidless eye as depicted in the film.
@@Joemantler or the ninja Nazgul fight in Battle of the Five Armies :/
@@purefoldnz3070 For all the reasons stated in this video? That's literally what this video is about dude. All the reasons why it was good they cut that fight.
another decision that saved the films was that they decided to do a trilogy and not just two films
That was in fact the decision Christopher Lee is referring to in the clip I used of him at the end.
Alternatively, that was (one of) the decisions that ruined The Hobbit...
@@renanleandro5914 Ironic
Very nice assessment. I'm not altogether sure about Frodo hanging off the edge, but the core themes point is absolutely spot on. The whole point of the story is that little people can be great, and they can be great in little ways. Humility, self sacrifice, simple, goodness and generosity, warm heartedness, these are things which oppose evil most profoundly. Aragon is a good king because he doesn't desire being the main hero.
I agree that the adaption in Mount Doom was pretty good although hanging off the cliff was for me too unbelievable.
The larger complaint that I have is that by the time he reached the crack of doom, Frodo was completely spent. The fight with Gollum detracts from the fact that Frodo had given absolutely everything to get as far as the crack of doom.
My god, I never knew this and I am SO glad they made the decision they did.
When you know, from Aragorn's perspective, he's running into certain death for the sake of a 'distraction' - it's a far more moving scene (and line). There's no guarantee it will even help, but he's willing to sacrifice his life for the sake of MAYBE, POSSIBLY giving Frodo a better chance. The desperation and heroism of that creates much more emotional impact.
In fact, now that I think about it, he doesn't even know if Frodo is alive at this point (especially after what the eye of Sauron told him). You could even interpret his "for Frodo" as kind of avenging Frodo's memory - because he just doesn't know.
If Aragorn had fought Sauron in a cliche battle of hero vs bad guy....my god it would have cheapened it x1000 fold! It would have lessened the scary factor of Sauron if one man could go toe to toe with him and win, and would have lessened the importance of what Frodo and Sam were doing.
I personally loved that we never saw Sauron in bodily form (except for that bit in the prologue - but even that didn't show his face). Sometimes it's about what you don't show.
Yep. If Aragorn had fought Sauron, it would have been cliched hero fights bad guy and would have cheapened the trilogy.
In the books, there is a character named Ioreth a "wise woman of Gondor". Ioreth though mainly keeps this position by quoting unreflected upon aphorisms which she herself doesn't really understand either in their meaning or how and why those sayings came about. Ioreth is an expert at stating what is "common sense", but in fact has little other wisdom, and as such is a comic character. (She does come off better than the scholar in the same scene.)
Anyway, there is a lightly regarded scene in the books where Ioreth is used as one of the viewpoint characters for the Coronation of Aragorn. In the story, one of Ioreth's kinswomen has been hiding in the hills away from the action, and she is relying on the lore of Ioreth to get an explanation for what is going on. And Ioreth earnestly tells the tale in a manner that is unintentional parody. In her version of the story, Frodo is a great and mighty warrior who alone, accompanied only by his squire, goes to the Black Tower, challenges Sauron to single combat and defeats him and throws down his tower. After all, common sense tells you that if a victory is won, it has to be through force of arms right?
As a follower of the early script of the Lord of the Rings, I couldn't help think that Ioreth had been placed in charge of the writing team, as it was filled with "adaptations" made as part of "common sense" as if Tolkien had just got the story wrong and his millions of fans had never recognized it. But of course, the Ioreth scene shows that Tolkien, puffing on his pipe, fully understood and imagined what people would try to make of his story.
At least we now know who wrote The Hobbit Trilogy
neeeeerd
@@Kanovskiy *takes a bow*
Thank you Sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar.
Viggo is a masterpiece.
Can't help but dread the up-and-coming LOTR series, while clinging to this trilogy like a sacred treasure...
Don’t you mean upcoming?
Yeah me too, not Optimistic with it
Simple, don’t watch it if it’s no good.
@@patl709 well put! 🙂
@@patl709 Yeah but we'll still be forced to hear about it for 5 seasons (5 years)
In the end, the real Fellowship are the friends we made along the way
They definitely made the right decision in "The Return of the King" by not having Sauron return. Unlike in the Star Wars sequel trilogy made by Disney where they had Palpatine return in "The Rise of Skywalker". When I first watched it, I distinctly remember thinking, "wait, but is Palpatine really dead this time? How can we be sure?". It's a shame the people at Disney didn't learn this lesson from Peter Jackson and company.
i was very disappointed that they chose to do that. my biggest gripes with the star wars legends comics is how there would never be any real threat to the important characters and they would revive palpatine and vader like 50000 times. the movies gave some new stakes to things and actually killed off characters instead of having them be immortal fanfare. but then nope, they reversed everything in ROS and made the most generic hollywood movie i've ever seen.
Ironically it wouldn't made more sense to include Sauron than bring back Palpatine since Sauron is actually still alive. Nevertheless it was good that they didn't show him. The antagonist was the ring, not sauron
Yep. Agree. Sometimes doing less is more.
In the books, Frodo realised he didn't have the strength to destroy the ring himself, before he even got to Sammath Naur. So he used the ring's malice to curse Gollum, saying that if he touched him again, he would be thrown off a precepice to his death. Frodo knew Gollum would try to take the ring from him again when he got to Sammath Naur so Frodo used Gollum's desire for the ring in order to destroy it. That is how Frodo (indirectly) destroyed the ring. Gollum dancing off the edge was no accident. Also, one of the key points made in the books is that Sauron cannot take physical form again without the ring, so that showdown would have been a direct contradiction of Tolkein's works. In addition, Sauron actually feared that Aragorn or perhaps Gandalf had claimed the ring, and had brazenly strolled up to the Black Gate to unleash its power. He sent as much force as he could muster to make sure he won the battle and retreived the ring, and he absolutely would not have exposed himself like that to a potentially more powerful rival, even if he could take physical form. Also (again) Tolkein stressed that after the fall of Numenor, Sauron was unable to take a fair form again, so he wouldn't have been able to appear as Annatar. So glad they left all this out, but I really think they should have stuck with the original events at Mount Doom.
What an excellent comment
"Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom."
It's one of my favorite moments in the book. The way Sam witnesses the scene and then ultimately even Sam takes pity on Gollum.
Kind of amazing that so many people miss this (including Jackson himself).
Sauron does have a physical form in the books. The line about him needing the ring to take on a physical form is from the movies.
I don't want to doubt you, but that's really not my memory from the books, the part in Mount Doom. I vividly remember reading a part where Frodo claimed the ring as good own before Gollum stepped in and bit off his finger. It's been a while though.
It's interesting how this video also exactly explains why Game of Thrones failed.
In the last few seasons, they forgot what it was about.
The whole show build up to Jon Snow to become king, or at least to have a greater meaning to the end result.
But then they just threw it out of the window and decided to make an ending that was 'surprising'.
Same with arya killing the night king. It wasn't a terrible scene, but she was never set up in a way to have that purpose in the story.
There were a million things wrong with GOT, the rot started in Season 5 and it just got more and more gangrenous. Jon Snow's destiny is but one of them. (Not a king, also doesn't defeat Night King, Jamie abandoning his redemption arc "just because", troops OUTSIDE during a siege, hiding in a crypt when you KNOW the NK can resurrect, the Wildlings going back north of the wall, Danny going cuckoo WITHOUT the justification the writers thought, EVERYTHING Sand Snake, etc. etc.)
well...thats because the people who wrote the last few seasons didn't know what it was about...they had no source material and were not good enough writers to keep it going. Not that that makes it ok but its a different scenario. They were carried purely by the source material until it was gone.
Jon Snow dueling the dark lord and Aragorning himself to the throne is entirely against the whole ethos of the Ice and Fire series. It’s not the Lord of the Rings. There’s no secret prince taking his rightful place and ruling justly ever after. That’s not what it’s about at all. Nobody who has a significant understanding of Martin’s work would ever think this is a good idea.
@@1080lights I agree. I would have been fine if Jon died fighting the night king but killed him as well.
Than again if that happens who stops daeneris?
Viggo's inclusion of the line "for Frodo"... It really is proof of what they say about him. There really was no-one more perfect to cast as Aragorn than Viggo. So many absolutely incredible casting decisions were made for the franchise, so many incredible moments even beyond what Tolkien created and intended, and just so much passion for the books and the project as a whole. That is why I don't think there will ever be another film series quite like Lord of the Rings.
Yes, there were 3 or 4 others they considered to play the role of Aragorn. One of them was definitely not good for the role in my opinion - i forget which one right now. The others may have been okay but Viggo Mortensen was perfect for the role of Aragorn
I completely agree with your analysis. The biggest reason that Aragorn v Sauron would’ve been a huge blunder on the director’s part is because the March on the Black Gate was so heroic because the battle was completely futile if they didn’t have hope that Frodo and Sam would make it to Mt. Doom. If Aragorn had fought Sauron, viewers would ask themselves, “Well look, here is the real climax. The King of the Free People’s vs. the Dark Lord himself. Why was Frodo and Sam’s journey such a focal point?” However, as you indicated, the Ring was the antagonist. The journey to Mt. Doom from the Shire made by Frodo and Sam would’ve been less impactful if Aragorn and Sauron had duked it out in front of the Black Gate
Why would they think that? Did they forget about Frodo and Sam during the battle at Minas Tirith?
@@cbalan777 I feel like if Sauron and Aragorn fought while Frodo and Sam were inside Mt. Doom, people’s focus would have been on the Aragorn and Sauron fight. It would have diminished the impact of the ring being destroyed because the big bad guy is fighting Aragorn, not inside the ring. This is also why Tolkien decided not to show Sauron in physical form. While Sauron and Aragorn have their epic showdown, who would care as much about the ring being destroyed?
Sure, it could be argued that people would know Sauron’s physical form could never be defeated UNLESS the ring was destroyed. Therefore, his physical appearance doesn’t diminish the impact of the ring’s destruction. That is correct in a literal sense. From a director’s and/or author’s POV, you want to draw your audience’s attention to the parts of the story that advance your overarching themes. The overarching theme in LOTR that is advanced by focusing on Sam and Frodo is that anyone can change the course of the world, even a hobbit. Alternatively, the overarching theme in LOTR that is advanced by including (and thereby drawing your audience’s focus due to the dramatic and epic nature of such and event) the Sauron vs. Aragorn fight is simply that Aragorn is a badass fighter? I simply cannot imagine a theme that is advanced by focusing on the 1v1 fight between Sauron and Aragorn.
I think the fact that they chose not to include that scene exemplifies how they were devoted to the core themes rather than simply epicness
@@cbalan777 I feel like I just rehashed the video’s arguments, but oh well xD
@@jumunusun2790 Why do you think people would stop caring about Frodo and the Ring if they had Aragorn fight Sauron? Did you stop caring about Frodo when Gandalf fought the Balrog? What about when Aragorn fought Lurtz? It's like you are making the argument that the audience is dumb and can't handle more than one big thing happening. I'm not saying they should have 100% had Aragorn fight Sauron, but that I haven't really ever been convinced of why he shouldn't have. "It's not in the book" and "It's distracting" aren't really great answers.
@@cbalan777 You seem to miss the entirety of my argument, so i can't help you understand
I just finally saw LOTR's ending tonight and i'm really glad they went that way for the ending. I really missed out on this trilogy so i'm glad i finally got to watch it :D awesome video thank you
Be sure to check out the extended editions if you haven't already - hours of extra LOTR!
@@PentexProductions The extended versions are well worth devoting an entire day to. It's amazing how you can watch each film and not realize just how long you've been sitting there transfixed. I can think of no other film or series of films where I haven't given any thought to bodily distractions like food or bathroom breaks for the entire duration.
"Hold your ground! Hold your ground!
Sons of Gondor, of Rohan, my brothers, I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me.
A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered shields, when the age of men comes crashing down, but it is not this day! This day we fight!!
By all that you hold dear on this good Earth,
I bid you stand, Men of the West!!!"
I am actually stunned that they ever thought to include Sauron in that final fight
It does make thematic sense in terms of Aragorn's arc.
Would’ve been sacrilege .
I’m always a bit irked by the eye being a physical element in the story. I always perceived the presence of the eye in terms of a non-physical telepathic presence . But I guess it’s easier to portray it the way they did .
Real life Sauron would’ve fucked me right off
@@adambell3615
The inner Eye as it were.
But being a visual medium film must externalise.
@@alanpennie8013 exactly , well put
I'm stunned that they didn't. Sauron wasn't just a lidless eye as seen in the movie. In the book he had form as described by Gollum.
it would be cool if sauron showed aragorn this battle in the palantir, to show him how he would triumph and to give aragorn more fear for the coming day
No
I liked how Sauron showed him Arwen dying when Aragon revealed himself through the palantir.
I think it would be cooler if in his vision Aragorn triumphed, but then couldn't resist the power of the One Ring, and becomes the new dark lord
That, would frighten Aragorn👌
That "For Frodo" moment chokes me up EVERY time.
Twenty years TWENT YEARS later and it still gets me. Still gets me all teary eyed. The "For Frodo" line - so simple, yet so elegant. So much emotion in his voice and on his face and it's said practically at a whisper.
That and when Aragorn, son of Arathorn has been crowned High King of Gondor and all free people have come together to celebrate. He approaches the hobbits and they go to bow. And he says 'No, my friends. You bow to no one." And HE FUCKING BOWS TO THE WEE HOBBITS. And then all of Gondor bows to them
I watched RoTK in a giant theater with like 2200 people. Full. Every seat Full. When those emotional scenes come on and the audio is kinda quiet.. you could hear a pin drop in that theater.
I have not been to a movie in a few years now. I went to Frozen 2 with my daughter. That is only movie I've seen in theater in past four years I think. I really regretted not going to Infinity War or Endgame even if went by myself. By time I saw them i knew everything.
But I knew LOTR before watching it, too. That didn't matter.
Jackson, I believe said it best himself, that making the fight of Aragorn vs Sauron would have made the story Aragorn’s alone, not Frodo’s.
I watch this trilogy on a yearly basis and the 'For Frodo' line gives me goosebumps everytime
"Well, thank god for that decision" -Christopher Lee
Does anyone know what Lee was referring to?
@@maggus999 That they decided (or were enabled by New Line Cinema) to make a trilogy instead of the previously envisioned two movies.
@ thanks
They ruined the Hobbit by “Disney-fying” it.
Having Sauron appear at the gate would have done the same to LOTR.
That's ridiculous. Everything was done well in LOTR.
I'm sure they wouldn't fuck it up.
The Hobbit is a bastardization of LOTR and does not compare
@@14reasons58 Did you watch the video before you commented. I was agreeing with an episode titled "The Decision the SAVED the LOTR."
If the had Sauron appear at the gate it would have Disney-fied LOTR. (But the didn't., LOL)
@@Gozerthegozarian1984 that's just an opinion and theory
@@14reasons58 LOTR is a literary classic. One hallmark of a classic is people take them seriouly enough to form strong opnions about them. People then discuss their differing opinions and theories. And that's a good thing.
Peter Jackson was honorable enough to respect the relgious, moral, and philosophical themes Tolkien wrote into LOTR and "The Silmarillion." For me, having Sauron come to the gate would have violated Tolkien's core theme for Sauron. Tolkien used Sauron to illustrate the selfishness of evil. Tolkien used Sauraon, and Melkor before him in the Silmarillion, to show how selfishness is ultimately self destructive. In the end both Sauron and Melkor are cowards.
Sauron did not come out to neet Aragon. Melkor, Sauron's master in "The Silmarillion" did not levae the darkness of his castle/dungeon to meet the Elves when the Elves stormed Melkor's gate.
LOTR feels like history because it is written a history that starts with the creation of the universe in the Silmarillion. Having Melkor come to the gate would have severed the link between "The Simarillion" and LOTR. Severing this link to Tolkien's creation myth in "The Silmarillion" would have transformed a powerful mythic movie into Disney-fied meaningless fluff.
But that's just my opinion, and is worth what you paid for it (nothing, lol.)
To conlude, what I am writng here is positive about the LOTR movies, Peter Jackson, and agrees with the video you and I are commenting on.
if they made this trilogy today you know they would have went with this original ending. or replace aragorn with a women
6:10
I was actually expecting you to mention how Sauron couldn't actually assume a fair form since his body was destroyed with Numenor
Perhaps a Tolkien geek side note too far - but good catch!
@@PentexProductions no such thing as that! Great video btw, keep it up!
Everyone else: Praising the trilogy or deep diving into Tolkien's lore.
Me: ...that background music was pretty sick!
SERIOUSY!! YES!!!
One of the best movie soundtracks of all time. Check out the channel Monoverantus, they're analyzing the entire score.
According to the story of the Fall of Numenor, Sauron lost his ability to shape shift or take a fair form after Eru Illuvatar condemned Numenor and sank it to the bottom of the sea. Sauron was stuck with this terrible and malicious form.
"The world was broken, and the land was swallowed up, and the seas rose over it, and Sauron himself went down into the abyss. But his spirit arose and fled back on a dark wind to Middle-earth, seeking a home."
[The Silmarillion]
Sauron’s spirit managed to bear the his one ring back to Middle Earth.
"Though reduced to a 'spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind', I do not think one need boggle at this spirit carrying off the One Ring, upon which his power of domination minds now largely depended."
[The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien #211)
It wouldn’t make sense to leave that scene where Aragorn saw Annatar if Sauron was deprived of his fair form.
Well, thank God for that decision.
I've heard people say Sauron did have a body during the events of LotR.
@@cbalan777 Yes, he did have a body. Gollum talked about his capture and torture in Mordor and he saw Sauron only had 4 fingers on one of his hands. His physicial form was most terrible. He lost the ability to assume a beautiful physical form when Numenor was cursed by Eru Illuvatar and sank to the bottom of the ocean.
@@evelynrosewindsor That makes sense. I doubt that part of the scene with Aragorn seeing Annatar would have made sense to most of the audiences who hadn't read the books, but I think they might have been able to explain it away as "magic" if they really wanted to. They also cut out some of Eru's other contributions like Gollum falling into lava.
@@evelynrosewindsor I always thought that without the ring he couldn't take physical form. I know it's mentioned in Fellowship that he didn't have one at that time. "He cannot take physical form, but his spirit has lost none of it's potency ".
@@chuck_henry No, Sauron can still very much take a physical form as long as the Ring persists. It took him a great deal of time to regather his strength after the end of the Second Age, but somewhere around 1000 TA he's able to take form again. Also worth noting that he isn't destroyed utterly, but rather is reduced to a completely ethereal presence with the most minimal ability to be perceived by anyone. In the Fourth Age you might experience Sauron as a shadow seen in the corner of your eye that disappears if you try to look for it or a momentary and inexplicable feeling of dread. He's lost the ability to either manifest or influence the bodies, minds, or spirits of mortal beings except in the most nebulous and transitory manner.
I randomly looked up LotR because why not and now I somehow found this amazing. Great video
Perfect timing! I only uploaded it an hour ago. There are a few more LOTR videos on the channel if you're interested.
@@PentexProductions i noticed it was posted not long ago which is why I commented it was indeed great timing. I’ll check em out if there anything like this video you may have a new sub soon
I miss the end of the book "The Scouring of the Shire" where Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin raise up the Hobbits and unload a bunch of whoop-ass on Saurman's goons.
In the context of a movie after the Black Gate battle and the defeat of Sauron it would've bent lack luster.
I can totally see why they didn't included it and also killed Saruman at the beginning of ROTK even though that scene only appears in the extended edition.
Yeah it was a terrible mistake to.omit and actually undoes Tolkien's whole point.
Honestly, maybe Aragorn fighting Sauron would've worked better as a Nightmare Sequence Aragorn has early in the trilogy, but as a final battle it does not work. It would've looked cool though.
Others have suggested he could have seen it in the Palantir or Galadriel's mirror, like how Frodo saw the Scouring of the Shire.
yeah, the only downside of not having a fight scene is that Sauron was cool AF and we never really got to see him.
@@Bones12x2 He takes out small crowds of soldiers with each swing of his mace in the first film. Good enough.
@@takatamiyagawa5688 That was enough for him to terrify me.
"For Frodo!" Yes, I agree that it is the key line that brought stark focus on what all the battles were about. Vigo is not just a great actor, but a highly intelligent man too.
And he's very creative and talented in other ways, too: languages, music, photography, fight choreography...
Keep up the fantastic work. I love that 2 decades later this trilogy is still something that inspires so much love and creative analysis. This trilogy to me truly embodies the Gandalf line "he who breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom." The creative team behind the trilogy knew how to tap into Tolkien's themes without destroying them.
Yes, yes, yes. I can not agree more. Unfortunately not all of the decision makers of big franchises do unterstand their own material … look at you Rian, JJ and Catherine.
Kevin Smith
This is exactly why these movies are my all-time favourites. The amount of work, dedication and the eye for detail that went into these movies is worth every second of the 40 times I've watched the trilogy.
Let us not forget what last words Arragon said to Frodo in Fellowship of the Ring just before they parted: "I would have followed you to the end..." Which also makes the march to the Black Gate Arrgon's way of keeping his promise.
Well said, Freddy Wang.
Great video! Your argument for why that ending scene needed to be rewritten is very well done.
Thanks!
I wish they would have reversed the decision to send Sam away on the Stairs of Cirith Ungol. My biggest gripe with the movie is that scene. "Don't you leave him, Samwise Gamgee." -_-
Yeah that never happened in the book.
How is it that 20 years later I STILL can't get enough of LOTR
I always thought, not including Sauron in the final battle was a bad thing.
Today, you have changed my mind.
I’ve seen a fan edit that saves The Force Awakens from being a beat for beat redo of a new hope. The destruction of the republic core worlds is shifted to the end so the resistance are trying to prevent it. They destroy starkiller base but too late to prevent it from firing. They lose.
Still doesn't save the fact that death star 3 came out of nowhere and Han divorced with Leia, and Luke abandoned everyone...
@@user-xx6vy9ri8p yeah but it makes Star Killer base a one use weapon so inferior to the Death Star as it drains the local star and can't go anywhere. Personally I would have made Leia turn to the dark side which would explain Luke's reluctance to fight and given Carrie a lot more to do being General Organa and Snoke.
@@Concreteowl You can't do it with editing...
@@user-xx6vy9ri8p it would be interesting to try. That's what I like about fan edits. They usually work with pretty screwed up films so you can forgive if they aren't entirely successful as they are proof of concept. Like a window into another world. Go through all of Carrie's work and finding darker material to use would be fun. Snoke as a holographic mask /puppet means it doesn't really matter if it looks a bit wonky. Not sure how much actual screen time Palpatine got in Rise of Skywalker. But it might be possible to collage in enough material from Carrie to get an effect. The real problem of course is the second film is so different. Anyway the effect on the Force Awakens is compelling.
@@Concreteowl I like fan edits of Hobbit trilogy, because Hobbit already has all the important scenes from the book, so you can just cut all the additional stuff. And also Attack of the clones is much better with all deleted scenes.
"For Frodo" still gives me chills.
If they had Sauron there, it would've destroyed the movie, Aragorn and the whole reason they were there, the point was for Aragorn and everyone to sacrifice their lives to make sure the Big Scary Eye kept looking at them while Frodo saves the day
What do you think - should they have left it in?
I’m glad it was cut. “Ruined” might be a bit hyperbolic, but it definitely would have muddled the ending.
Sauron ended up as much a victim of The Ring as Frodo and Gollum, even if it was self inflicted.
@@Midwinter2 Funny thing about you mentioning the CGI, Viggo Mortensen also made complaint on Jackson's heavy CGI usage, claiming the first film of the trilogy felt more organic and gritty than the other two proceeding films. A bit of cruel irony too, the reason the CGI amps up over the course of the trilogy was because the huge success of the first film led to Jacksons spending budget dramatically increasing and being pumped into CGI.
@@WolfGr33d To be fair to Peter Jackson though, he was given years and years of pre-production time on LOTR to make it nearly perfect. For the Hobbit trilogy though, the studio wanted to make a profit and rushed the hell out of the production and stressed out Peter Jackson and the crew to do it quickly. He had almost no pre-production time and they were literally rewriting the script during the filming of the Battle of the Five Armies.
So it's unfortunate that the Hobbit trilogy has excessive CGI and wasn't nearly as good as LOTR, but it wasn't entirely Peter Jackson's fault because the studio rushed him and it was a lot faster to just do a ton of CGI rather than taking the time to build miniatures and do practical effects like in LOTR.
It'd be fine to leave in. Makes a lot of sense actually and makes the point like before that physically defeating Sauron doesn't mean anything unless you destroy the Ring which is the actual Sauron himself. The real problem was the nonsensical fight over the Ring at the end. They missed the point that it was the fact that Bilbo and Frodo not killing Gollum that saved the day because he got the Ring back then his dance of joy ended up taking him over the edge. Frodo doing a "Glenn Close" attack is fairly ridiculous.
I'm just now introducing my house oldest son to the movies. In fact I had to make sure he wasn't listening because we just finished Two Towers yesterday. 😏
A great journey awaits him!
It would be interesting to see a video about how the trilogy was truly saved from the darkest of evils, studio interferences and dirty politics, I’ve heard some facts it would be nice to make a compilation ( including casting haha )
Thank God they didn’t.
And honestly, as much as I live the books, Jackson’s version of the ring’s demise is more narratively satisfying.
Yes, I think it would have been only minorly detracted from Tolkien's point that the ring can't be destroyed through agency. But it would have fit with his other big theme of evil destroying itself (of course, with Frodo and Smeagol the evil isn't them themselves, but the shadow currently darkening their souls).
Negatory.... Although i understand the Changes i dont agree with them. The Book is 10 times better then the movie.
Except Gollum doesn't just fall over the ledge on his own in the book either. Jackson misinterpreted the text and missed some blatantly obvious things from the source material. It's actually pretty telling that none of the writers picked up on any of Tolkien's subtlety. The Ring makes Gollum jump over the ledge in the book, and I'll prove it to you with some quotes.
When Frodo, Sam, and Gollum are the Black Gate in "The Two Towers", Frodo tells Gollum that in the last need that he will use the Ring's power to ensure Gollum would never get it:
"'the Precious mastered you long ago. If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command.'"
And then in the "Mount Doom" chapter we see this threat carried out:
"Frodo flung him off and rose up quivering... clutching his hand to his breast, so that beneath the cover of his leather shirt he clasped the Ring. ...Sam saw these two rivals with other vision. A crouching shape... and before it stood stern, untouchable now by pity, a figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice. 'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom.'"
The "wheel of fire" that Frodo is clutching here is the Ring, and the fact that this command comes from the Fire obviously implies that it's coming straight from the Ring as well. This means that Frodo, using the Ring's power, curses Gollum and tells him that if he touches him again then he will be cast into the Fire. And then Gollum touches Frodo anyway and takes the Ring from him, which ultimately ensures that Frodo's curse takes effect. We see a clear moment of set-up/foreshadowing and payoff with these passages. In the book, people CAN learn to wield the Ring's power (mostly depending on how powerful they are to begin with), and Frodo himself clearly gets some mastery over it by the end. At least enough mastery to do this to Gollum. Pretty telling that no reference to this stuff is found in the DVD commentary. They clearly never picked up on it. Not surprising for a first-time reader, but it IS surprising for these so-called Tolkien experts. It'd be one thing to say "I can see the subtleties of this scene in the book but felt like I needed to tweak it for the film version", but he never even alludes to this stuff. He clearly just didn't pick up on it. It's funny because the same ideas of the text are still communicated in the tweaked film version (i.e. the Ring itself being responsible for its own destruction), but the fact that he doesn't bring up this stuff in the commentary means that it's just a happy coincidence.
Here is a more comprehensive look into these scenes from r/tolkienfans (a subreddit filled with hardcore Tolkien fans): www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/flsx8s/why_did_gollum_trip_the_ring_not_eru_did_it/
@@brooksboy78 No.
The ring will not destroy itself, thats a paradox that is unsupported.
Frodo did not command the ring nor did he have it in his possession when gollum slipped over the side.
@@vi683a Literally read the quotes I listed (or the extremely detailed reddit thread made by hardcore Tolkien fans that I linked below it). Frodo cursed Gollum right BEFORE Gollum seized the Ring from him. The Ring's curse was already placed before Gollum seized it, and by the time Gollum took it from Frodo and "touched" him again, the curse that Frodo laid ended up taking effect. Frodo (wielding a "wheel of fire", which is obviously the Ring) tells Gollum that if he touches Frodo ever again, then he will cast himself into the fire. Gollum then does this, and then Frodo's curse takes effect. He lays the curse down when he still has the Ring, not when he loses it. Literally read the quotes and then the analysis. Care to explain your take on what the wheel of fire is? Care to explain why the command is coming from the wheel of fire rather than Frodo's mouth? Care to explain why Frodo tells Gollum that he would use the Ring's power in the last need to ensure Gollum casts himself over the edge hundreds of pages before it actually happens? I gave an analysis that is 100% supported by the text. You need to study what curses are and how they work in literature (pay particular attention to works like "Le Morte d'Arthur", which Tolkien is obviously drawing from and emulating).
Btw Sauron have his physical form even in books, he is just not a warrior, he is more of a schemer. He tortured Golum and Golum remembered that his one hand have only 4 fingers thats how we know, there were more proofs this is just one i can think of right now
Friend, Sauron did once have his physical form because he’s a Maia, like Gandalf. He even had the ability to change it into the most beautiful person in the world, so that he could go around charming people for his boss Morgoth (a Valar and the first Dark Lord). He charmed Aragorn’s people, the Dúnedain from Númenor, fuelling them with greed and envy that they would actually plan to go to The White Shore and wage war against the Valar. Ilúvatar got angry and destroyed Númenor, sinking it to the bottom of the ocean. Sauron was there at that time, so his physical body got destroyed too, along with his ability to shape his fair appearance.
That happened long before the trilogy takes place, so no, he does not actually have a physical form at that time.
@@Mya050593 Well in Silmarillion Sauron could change shapes according to his whim.
So he could take on a fair form which he did when he took on the guise of the lord of gifts, that ability was lost as you said when Númenor was destroyed.
But that doesn´t mean he couldn´t take on a physical form any more, because if that ability was lost how exactly could Isildur have cut the ring from Sauron´s hand?
Because that battle happened after the destruction of Númenor.
And again we have Gollum mentioning that he had only 4 fingers on his black hand if he was a formless spirit how would Gollum be able to see that? Because Gollum most certainly wasn´t even born at that point in time, and i very much doubt his grandmother would have told him the story of the last alliance of men and elves.
Mostly because i very much doubt she would have known or cared about it, as hobbits rarely cares about what happens outside their neighborhood.
@@Mya050593 i recomend reread the books
@@Erikjust Sauron has many guards working for him who share his spirit. You have forgotten what true power is: one does not act from the throne with one’s own hands but through the hands of your thralls or employees.
Also why are you putting so much weight into what Gollum says since you know that he is a liar and does not know what power is, besides the lack of thought that goes into his addiction to the ring?
@@evannibbe9375that would be too specific a lie though
For the Tolkien geeks: Tolkien's elvish has lots of inspiration from Finnish, and Annatar in particular is curious choice of name.
In Tolkien's elvish it mean "lord of gifts", while in Finnish it could be described to mean "she who gives".
-Anna "give" (also a girl name)
-tar: a suffix for something higher or divine, though only used in female form. For instance, the Finnish word for God is "Jumala" while Goddess is "Jumalatar". My bet is this is where he derived Annatar's name.
I’ve always seen the the climax of Aragorn’s arch as being when he heals Faramir and Eowyn and Merry, something he was far from being able to do for Frodo. This is the final embrace of his Kingship - After all the hands of the King are the hands of a healer. Not a warrior, or a general. A healer.
I always loved the wide scene at 12.25 where the friends all charge the gate... If you watch carefully, Gandalf puts on an Usain Bolt like burst of speed...even overtaking Legolas at one point. I didn't think Sir Ian had it in him!
Didn't know Viggo came up with that line "For Frodo". That was perfect.
We need big Sauron fights in the Amazon series, though
I'd love to see the fight Sauron had with Huan the Hound come to the big screen, but nfortunately that was during the First Age.
While it would have been showy, AND let Sauron have some nice lines, it would have left too many questions unanswered.
If Sauron could do this, why didnt he before?
If, indeed, Sauron could do this, why did he need the ring at all?
My thoughts exactly!
@RockMeAmadeus Sauron already showed his physical form in the movies: Sauron’s thralls share an indistinguishable spirit with Sauron.
All of the orks at the black gate, Saruman, and the witch king and his 8 buddies
As the years have gone by I have gained more and more appreciation for how beautifully Jackson and his team ADAPTED the books for film. They're not the same, but I think a wonderful and faithful homage to one of the greatest fictional stories ever told.
"For Frodo."
That line from Aragorn is so powerful that it NEVER ceases to have me tear up, every single time I've seen it. Which has to be 200+ times at this point. So glad to have had this trilogy to help shape me.
Really good way of making it the way it was made in the end. A pity PJ didn´t hold on to same conclusions with the Hobbit trilogy.
But still better then the fate of Narnia (where they went so far from original themes that their story fell apart), let alone GoT S8 (and partly s7), where writers clearly do not follow even their own writing in previous parts/seasons and do strange and non functioning twists and scenes.
The main issue with that series was that PJ wasn't given enough time to meticulously craft everything, a luxury he enjoyed in the original series. The fact that it still turned out half decent is a tribute to PJ and his team.
@@zahrans He also didn't really want to do it, but felt obliged to. He was far too tired, and had put on too much weight as well. He was not healthy making the Hobbit. You can tell from the production movies: everything is always done at the last minute. He was directing during the day then staying up at night to write the next day's script.
in the book frodo basically curses gollum to fall into mount doom if he harms frodo using the magic of the ring. he dosent just fall in but i guess thats not very cinematic
Jackson clearly didn't pick up on that though. He just thought Gollum fell in.
@@brooksboy78 From an audience point of view, that is exactly what it would have looked like.
@@keith6706 I'm not saying the change was bad, but it's clear Jackson misunderstood the original text. He should have talked about Frodo's curse in the DVD commentary, but he very obviously missed this stuff entirely. Pretty bad coming from a so-called Tolkien expert.
@@keith6706 They did it that way in the Rankin Bass version of The Return of the King and even as a child I had no difficulty understanding what was going on: th-cam.com/video/3zM15SZi0nA/w-d-xo.html
I'm not saying that version is better because it has its problems and it's so short it had to leave way too much of the story out but it has its moments.
yo love the content dude surely u hit 20k this month
Thanks - we'll see! Every one helps :)
Thank you for making a video that sees the good in something rather than complaining about flaws.
They should have kept Tolkien’s original ending. Gollum gleefully falling in is the perfect representation of his primal desires leading to his demise and Frodo maintaining his Hobbit innocence.
Yeah, I almost prefer that ironic anticlimactic end. Like this all-encompassing, powerful, and evil ring is ultimately destroyed by its own power (which caused golem to desire that power and allure from it, stopping at nothing) Maybe that undermines the whole “good overcomes evil” but it does follow more of a “pride comes before fall” and sends a message that your own pride and greed will be your ruin
Oh another commenter reminded that in the books Frodo realizes he doesn’t have the power to destroy the ring, and he curses Golem basically saying “if you touch me again may you be cast into the fires of mount doom!” And the power of the ring made that come true in a way, so even with Golem dancing off the edge in glee Frodo still played a part in that
Every adaptation should be Faith full to source. Period
To me hobbits more than innocence represents growth. They're not only physically like children but they are inhabited by the spirit of children, unknowing and innocent.
And every time you see their society it's like the stereotype of a bunch of teenagers left to their own device, they're either drunk, high or asleep.
The Shire is like Peter Pans island where everyone remains a child. And unless they leave and face the real world they'll stay children, philosophically. And Gandalf sees this potential in them, to be shaped into these everyday heroes that will be the cogs behind the scenes even if they aren't the main character in a way. This gets enforced even stronger to me with how the other races are and behave, how the humans are driven by ambition or destroyed by it, how dwarfs are industrious but greedy and the elves are full of wisdom but always seem to become arrogant because of it.
The growth of all the hobbits in the fellowship really elevates the movies, not only how Frodo grew out of the Shire but also how Merry and Took went from thieves and vandals to proper heroes ready to die for the cause.
Making a movie about a hopeless fight against incalculable odds I think would be very good training for soldiers... and great for morale.
Many people don't know the importance of how editing and the pacing of a film can affect the actual storyline thank you for sharing
Awesome teamwork, great creative collaboration. I shiver at the idea of them having made the scene the other way.
I really love it when I see that even the cast members of The lord of the rings were trying to give their best in every way. They respected the work of Tolkien so much that they themselves stood sometimes to stay true to his intention behind writing the books.
P.S. not to mention that they understood the essence of friendship, love and kindness which Tolkien added in the lord of the rings.
Aragorn: "For Frodo"
Everyone: "You can do it Aragorn"
I'm glad you explained why the battle with sauron would've been a disaster. I didn't understand until you fleshed it out, and actually makes the entire sequence and movies more powerful for me. Tysm!
"for Frodo"
Goosebumps, tight throat, tears filling the eyes... Yep, it gets me each time ❤
I can't BELIEVE they even considered battling Sauron.
All of the parts that don't make sense in LOTR are deviations from the books.
"For Frodo" legit makes me cry dude
Also, in the books the Battle of the Black Gate was truly a hopeless one. Aragorn had 7,000 men with him. When the gates opened and the host of Mordor flowed out, suddenly Aragorn’s army was surrounded by 70,000. Outnumbered ten-to-one, there was literally no hope of victory. The last hope they had left was that with their deaths they could preoccupy Sauron just long enough that Frodo could safely reach Mount Doom and destroy the ring.
It’s a heartbreaking scene, them sacrificing their very lives and the entire military the men of the West had left, on a diversion that they HOPED would last long enough.
That was brilliant! Thank you! Worked in opera theatre all my life- always fascinated by the good directors- and great performers. Fabulous insights! Thank you again!!!!
I wish HBO thought about the last Game of Thrones seasons in detail like this
Seasons 5 onwards to be honest.
Weirds me out that Sir Ian was barely 60 years old when he filmed this
10:50. "For Frodo" scene makes me cry. The King is doing all of this not for himself or his kingdom (he could have stayed back), but for a small chance of victory. For Frodo
I get teary-eyed every time he says "for Frodo"
Having Frodo come all that way to have Gollum accidentally become the hero wouldn't have worked for me either...Also the concept that Sauron literally needed to possess the Ring to once again take physical form would have been thrown out the window at the very end, when throughout the series that's what has been the goal to avoid.
He was not the HERO. He was just another player.
Frodo could not destroy the ring in the very center of power where it was made.
It was necessary for Gollum to fight and take the ring, because the ring itself would not allow it to be destroyed.
Gollum needed to slip, in my opinion, but how do you convey that subtlety in the film... dialogue?
@RockMeAmadeus
Frodo in the end said “I choose not to do this thing.”
IN THE BOOK... They both fight, Gollum bites the ring and finger off of Frodo , and in his joy slipped to his doom.
In the Book, the ring will not let itself be destroyed in the very place it was created.
That is why Gandalf hinted that Gollum still had part to play.
Was it not for the folly of Gollum, Frodo would have succumbed to the ring of power!
"for frodo"
Sam: what about me?
Mr Frodo wouldn't have got very far without Sam.
All these years, I had no idea Karl Urban played Eomer, until that short interview clip near the end. I nearly spit out my coffee.
Loving the work mate. I can totally see myself as a kid saying "Saroun vs Aragorn awesome" but I love that it didn't happen because 20 years later it's still one of the greatest moments of all-time for me.
3 of the greatest masterpieces humanity has ever made.
So… Sauron got trolled?
Thanks for this video! Brought back some great memories.