Why the WTA Forehand Has a Large Backswing (featuring former WTA Player Ema Burgic Bucko)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ธ.ค. 2020
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In today's video, I discuss why the WTA forehand has a large backswing. Ema Burgic Bucko played on the WTA tour and has an incredible forehand. We talk about how her style was developed and demonstrate what would happen if she adapted the ATP forehand.
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There are some fierce forehands on the WTA tour. Sabalenka, Aanderscu, Stephens, Kvitova, Keys and of course Venus and Serena just to name a few. However, those forehands look very different when compared to the ATP style. This is due to genetic predispositions. WTA players naturally make contact closer to the body compared to ATP players. Therefore, the radius of the swing has to be larger resulting in a backswing that starts behind the body. If the natural longer backswing is changed to a shorter one the forehand doesn’t work because the range of motion is drastically reduced. There is nothing technically wrong with a classic WTA contact point that occurs with the elbow very close to the torso. Naturally female players draw more strength from this position and this can not and should not be attempted to be altered. Even though the elbow is very close to the torso high-level female players still make contact in front with the dominant shoulder ahead of the non-dominant shoulder. The only circumstance where an ATP style forehand is possible for a female player is if it occurs naturally. 👉 th-cam.com/video/CULb5lSjE_g/w-d-xo.html
Genetic predisposition? Seriously?
Hello. Why do wta players hit way more flatter than atp players? It is not just holding the racquet way more behind you but also the racquet path ist different. ATP players create more topspin? You had a short video on Instagram about the swing path. If you could explain it a little more detailed, it would be great. I mean when to use which shot or shouldn’t it change at all or does it change according to the players? Thank you 🙏🏼
@@maxpowers4436 "of course" what?
The OP opined that a longer backswing is caused by genetic predisposition. I disagree and haven't seen any proof to make me change mind.
Fed and many top pros train for decades to develop their skills. Do genetics play some role in athletic ability? I think so. Do they play a role in the length of a backswing? I'm pretty sure not.
@@monstertrucktennis You have a high-level coach telling you the difference is genetics and you're still in doubt.
The fact that 100 Atp pros hit the forehand a particular way different than 100 Wta pros, in terms of contact point and how far the elbow is away from the body clearly shows its genetics. Men are genetically different from women, that's obvious. And the difference is not due to training, as both male and female players go to the same academy and have same coaches. Some male players even have female coaches.
I hope you get my point
@@ifeanyiikpegbu6465 your implication that a "high level" coach can't be wrong is absurd. The ever so slight Henin hit an ATP forehand. Why don't you tell her that her genetics won't allow it.
I appreciate how you respect the integrity of the swing and the physiology of the players involved, instead of what some other sites seem to do do, which is make the WTA backswing "wrong". Men and women do not have the same balance points (hips, shoulders, etc) or even the same muscle insertion point, so it makes sense that there would be some differences.
Well said Tanya 👍
muscle insertion point? o.o dont all babies have the same insertion points..
It is not wrong but there is no whip affect on the WTA style. The ATP players go back with a very relaxed wrist that allows the racquet head and much of the handle to keep going back as the hand holding the racquet is rotated forward. The head and rest of the handle rebounds forward based on the laws of physics. It does not take any strength, just good timing. However, when Federer first came on tour tennis magazines would call him gumby since his wrist could lay back so far. That is from the momentum of the "whip". So their wrist, and mine, goes back farther than we can lay it back statically. Not sure that is such a healthy thing, especially for younger students. There is so much racquet speed from this technique that you often see ATP players in the air going backwards 10 feet behind the baseline and hitting unbelievable winners. I do not see that with the WTA. Watch the Open final between a very muscular Agassi and Federer and Federer had much more power while Agassi could bench press a bus at the time. It is all technique. Agassi had the old Jim Arias forehand and Federer whipped, not a fair contest.
@@imateapot51 there are 12 y.o. females using the proper technique based on the laws of physics. The purveyors of WTA style FH better for females are snake oil salesmen.
The fact that you have a mental image of all top 100 WTA & ATP players' strokes is very impressive. And that's just a random compliment out of the hundreds that this video deserves.
Thank you Knotwilg 🙏
Ema great forehand...better than alot of men's forehands. Don't change anything if it's not broken 👍🏿👍🏿
If something works for you there is no reason to change. Every person is different. From my personal experience, if you need to work on the technique it takes a lot of patience on both sides. It may be worse at first. This must be explained to the player so that he does not start to panic. Therefore, before any work on the technique, the player must be very patient until a new movement is adopted. Work on the technique while you are completely rested, do not play points, work individually with the coach. My theory is that movement is learned in reverse order. So contact point is important. How the player will get to it is less important if the movement is natural and fluid. Great video like any so far. Just keep up the great work.
A lot of bad guesses in the comment section.. The real reason WTA players have their elbows closer to the body is for stability since they rely more on lower body strength than ATP players. Most female pro players will even squat down to hit to help leg drive. Men traditionally have more upper body strength so they benefit from a shorter backswing and contact more in front. Simple as that. Case closed.
This does seem logical.
Cibulkova, especially considering her size, had a great forehand. She could rip the ball and she had a big loopy path behind her back. I think that Flipkens uses an ATP style forehand, but on the backhand size she slices almost every shot.
Great video. Love these technical discussions but also like the view that much of what happens comes naturally.
Very interesting comments here from the point of view of a high ranked woman player. First, the "elbow in" seems to give the player more strength in the shot, since the arm is supported by the torso. Also the long backswing allows for more momentum to be built, necessary for players with slighter frames.
Ema said that, upon shortening her backswing, ATP style, she felt as if she was "muscling" the ball more, since the entire stroke felt shorter (even taking into account the later contact point). That's because she had to develope the same racquet speed in a shorter distance. Hence more acceleration in a shorter distance. She had to muscle the ball.
Men tend to muscle the ball, since men have more muscle. Women use more momentum in their swings with longer strokes because of their slighter frames.
Now this is where it gets interesting. Look at someone like Fernando González. He had a long backswing, right on the edge of what could be considered a WTA forehand, and used a bent elbow on his stroke (sometimes very bent). That way he developed a lot more momentum in his swing. Add in the fact that he had a more stockier frame and muscle build and you have one of the most powerful forehands on the circuit at that time.
I guess you are saying... If a male player combines his extra muscle with the WTA momentum maximizing style it can be the best of both worlds and yeild big power. Makes sense to me if so.
@@james5744 It seemed to have worked for Fernando.
@ferzy09 When I say "muscle" the ball, I mean that we use muscles more than women. Of course top level players use more biomechanical principles (momentum creating racquet head speed). But men do use their muscles to a certain extent. It would be a waist not to.
I do think that the WTA forehand is changing, though. If you look at Jen Brady, Iga Swiatek, and Fiona Ferro, all three have very compact backswings, though still very close to the body, that quickly dip under and up on the ball. They hit less flat than, say, a Madison Keys, who has the classic WTA swing.
@ferzy09 Sure. But the courts are much slower than they were 10 years ago. Flat balls are tough to deal with, but they also bring more errors. There's a reason why Keys and Stevens have tailed off. Even Barty, who has an WTA forehand puts more spin on the ball.
Fascinating, really enjoyed the video...!
Great thoughts on the WTA forehand. As you point out, almost all players, even more so professional players, are going to have a very difficult time with a big technique overall. Henin was actually the rare exception, who did overhaul her forehand technique, he coach using Agassi's forehand as the model. She did end up with a wonderful forehand. A male player that completely overhauled his forehand was Adrian Mannarino. His overhaul was because of arm pain he was having with his old technique. These stroke overhauls are very rare as you point out.
I think you could argue that Federer's technique is a bit different now with his larger racquet.
I actually hit more like Henin's backhand and forehand ... forehands are short and sweet.
I agreed with the coach principal fundamentals having making contact more out in front body . More acceleration and direction though the forehand hitting. I also teaching this technique to my daughter. But most of all hitters have understand and let build into their mind and body . Is not how hard to hit the ball is how fast speed acceleration racket coming out .
It would be fun to also do the inverse and teach a male the WTA strokes. Great video Nick! PS: Would love to see something about doubles someday.
Will definitely cover doubles
This is a very interesting observation. Before picking up tennis myself, I watched more WTA than ATP, so I then naturally emulated hard-hitting female players I followed. Often faulted for taking the ball too close (sometimes fairly), nevertheless I would consistently strike with great pace. This video explains why I, a middle-aged male coming from unfitness to learn tennis from scratch, found this "WTA-style" forehand more natural for me: a person who likes to play aggressively despite (formerly) having less physical strength than my male opponents. Also, as a result, I can take the ball & make a decent enough return regardless (relatively) of my body position to the ball: being a little cramped up doesn't kill the shot potential. The WTA-style forehand thus can make for more versatility in positioning. It also facilitates taking the ball while moving forward, which of course makes drive volleys easier & more natural.
Being slight of build & beating better players with pace also has its psychological impact on opponents. 😃
Hi all, my impression. Her arm leads the body, not body leading the arm. I think it should be based on rotation, pushing in to the ground and rotating hips which arm would then follow, which I why it's called " ground strokes". There are comments on Justine Hennin's forehand, she has fantastic rotation on her forehand. Look at Hammer Throw, based on rotation, Discus Throw, based on rotation, Figure Skating, when they do their jumps, based on rotation, Golf Swing, based on rotation, all get hips to initiate movement. Boxers swing from their "hips". Love these discussions, cheers to all.
Could this mechanism be a byproduct of females on the tour using lighter bigger and whippier racquets that doesn’t offer the same stability as their heavier smaller frames. They compensate for the stability(or lack thereof)by the supposed racquet head speed gained by proponents shown in this video? Great video and analysis
Thank you. Most WTA player are more comfortable with lighter racquets that’s true. Not sure on the effects regarding technique...
In my view, the tour players do not use lighter racquets... approx. 12 oz(us) and above and 12 oz. isn't light in my book. I'm using Babolat Pure Strike at 10.7 oz... plenty heavy enough.
@ferzy09 I don't think you understand my comment. WTA doesn't have lighter/livelier balls... they are still "heavy/lively" balls and that is why 10.7 oz and up are good racquets. 10.7 oz bablotat pure strike is plenty sturdy for a racquet. So ferzy09 ... what's your thoughts on tennis and this video?
@ferzy09 you're right ... you are right... you got big heavy balls... sags.
Thank you🙏
In my opinion, men have enough power to generate top spin and power by wrist, so they don’t need a big backswing.Also ,the rally is faster than women, so the backswing can’t be too large.
i think that's a critical part of it too. genenrally, men have stronger forearms.
I am also an instructor and my view is that I like my forehand-elbow to be closer to my body is that I'm afraid of hyper extending my elbow causing injury/pain. Based on the type of hitting I'm up against and what type of balls I want to send back I often change the type of grip I need. I predominantly use an Eastern forehand but under certain circumstances I would use a Semi-Western; contact points are a bit different. Depending on again the type of ball you want to hit... and the type of ball that was given to you ....I'll reach further back to hit the ball harder.
I'm glad you didn't completely ruin Ema's forehand! 👍
With due respect Coach ... there are different ways of hitting forehands / backhands ... Ema is showing her's; but maybe she can do better and I agree with Intuitive Tennis that f/h are different and some will be more comfortable with one or the other and may have better results. I like the ATP's a little better for the most part but I certainly am not comfortable with over extending my elbow. I think Ema can do better.
@@samsnow7370 We can all do better. We can also do worse. Technique and improving upon it is never set in stone and any player should try to keep improving, but will Ema's forehand be better by switching to ATP, or will it get worse? It's an interesting question that only the player can answer. What I do know is that there will always be risks and trade-offs by changing technique.
@@CoachAdrian Well Emma's forehand showed what she does for her forehand which is good and she has been using that for so long that it is hard to change and it will always be a comfort zone to rely on. Small changes at a time could introduce something new and maybe "better". Even the ATP pros rely on new or additional coaches to improve on some things or not improve but to be more consistent (improvement also). There can be trade offs but not all the time; it could also launch them to the top 50 instead.. . but still a balance. I agree with you... but clearly certain WTA players have moved up based on some in my view big changes.
If it isn't broken. Don't change it.
@@funcatalogue It's a good philosophy!
There are coaches who train little girls how to shorten the forehand, obviously the takeback. There must be arguments to support this. I think that some of them might be
1. More directional control by avoiding the semicircle type of swing.
2. Better feel and strength at the point of contact.
3. Larger contact zone, thus more forgiving to mistakes, easier to achieve accuracy.
4. Earlier preparation, thus more time to react, no matter where the point of contact is.
Nikola, as you perfectly showed, the bigger takeback doesn't actually happen at the WTA forehand because of the arm back extension, but mainly because of the wrist/racket lag, which doesn't happen after the takeback. The wta forehand starts from a power position with the racket already lagged behind, which I believe is another tiny technical flaw. You could analyze Maria Sakkari's forehand in one of your future videos and tell us how it is differentiated from most WTA player's forehand.
Check out my blog where I discuss the ATP style on the WTA tour “Is the ATP forehand coming to the WTA tour?”
@@IntuitiveTennis Thanks a lot, you really made it easier for me to understand your point of view on the subject. I agree that the length of racket takeback is intuitive in the majority of the players, just like the bent vs straight arm at the point of contact; people try it out and choose at the very early stages of learning what suits them best. But, I have some objections about which of the intuitive personal preferences actually "violate" what you have perfectly described as the fundamentals of a good forehand shot. And that's where there is a dispute in the community in my opinion. You claim that the larger WTA takeback is intuitive (I agree) and there's nothing wrong with that, as live examples prove it (Serena Williams and many more WTA pros). On the other hand, you perfectly explained why it is a 2handed backhand fundamental element to have a power position with the tip racket head being well above the wrist, stating that even Serena's BH would be even better if she applied this fundamental element to her technique. In the same way there are many arguments supporting the aspect that the larger WTA forehand takeback is a "violation" of a forehand fundamental that if corrected properly, should lead to an even better than Serena's forehand. Some of the arguments I already wrote in my first comment. Some more are: 1. difficulty in taking the ball on the rise, 2. difficulty in producing spin (whereas the ATP forehand allows you to better change rhythm making either a top spin dipping shot, or a flatter shot, 3. The wrist lag is actually "faked" as you have perfectly shown in your relative video (th-cam.com/video/TUenx4d5E-Q/w-d-xo.html), but what you say is "immediate wrist lag" in the WTA forehand, while you say ATP forehand has a "delayed" wrist lag. It is claimed by many coaches that that the ATP wrist lag technique actually helps you produce more racket head speed. I actually can't see any difference between the fake wrist lag that you show in another video (th-cam.com/video/fRjwYp_t0OE/w-d-xo.html) and the "immediate" WTA forehand wrist lag.
As of the point of contact that you say is closer to the body in the WTA forehand, I actually see that it depends mostly on how far the elbow is from the torso at the moment of contact, rather than the small or big takeback. There are ATP players that have a closer to the body point of contact (same as WTA players), because their elbow is almost (or normally) touching their ribs right at the moment of contact. Of course this happens only when the forehand is hit with a bent arm. You can compare for example Djokovic and Sharapova forehands' points of contact and you will see that they are almost identical, while their takeback (at the preparation phase) isn't.
@@IntuitiveTennis emma is doing a shorter version of her swing, you're letting her do take back w her wrist cocked already.
so if you don't teach take back, many young kids, or new players will swing wta style.. it's easier.
I highly recommend watching the video iat 0.25 speed motion and stopping it in the 1:07 minut at the precise moment of racket-ball contact in the forehand shot. The image explains the forehand by itself. B E A U T I FU L !
Intuitive Tennis, I think it is the elbow that shorten the backswing. Like Ivan Lendl's or Sampras forehand, their elbows are farther from from the body. Overtime it became the "next gen" forehand like Nick Kyrgios. I think you're teaching her more of a Federer forehand, but Federer actually has a next gen forehand, it is just very minute, his elbow would raise up, as a result farther than his body kind of like Kafelnikov's forehand, then he swings, but he swings it like a whip. So, you're right that there's not backswing because after Federer hold his racquet from his ready position, he would immediately swing his racquet like a whip. That's also the reason that it does not look like a next gen forehand because it is so quick and compact, but at a point in his swing his elbow is like this slingshot position like Lendl's forehand (the father of next gen forehand). So, if your want her to shorten her backswing, you have to make her raise her elbow or let her racquet tip face the net like Thiem's forehand.
Ema rocks 🪨
Good session 👍🏼
thanks for answering my steffi graf question i am pretty sure this was it but one other point in my original question was about steffi's left arm she seemed to pull that arm away way to early compared to what you see all the other players do they seem to keep it there longer than steffi
I think some of it has to do with the neutral stance vs open...it's much easier to create effortless leverage and momentum in an open stance from the ground up. I still struggle with my neutral stance at times because I prefer to hit open.
Your best video I think
Interesting stuff. My forehand is like a typical ATP forehand only my racket face is open before lag. But my racket doesn’t go behind my body. I guess it’s similar to JMDP
5:49 murray used to have a huge FH take back too
Wow, deep shots but still drops in.
Thanks for this video! Would it be accurate to say that another major difference is the racquet flip?
The ATP forehand has a racquet flip where the racquet face rotates from facing the ground to being perpendicular to the ground. Meanwhile in the WTA forehand the face is always perpendicular besides the racquet rotating backwards on the takeback.
Fiona Ferro plays atp forehand?right? Thx for all the staff, great channel. Can You pls somehow explain also Sinakova's serve technik, advantages/disadv?
Siniakova has a racquet drop leak 👉 th-cam.com/video/mebvb2nYO7o/w-d-xo.html
I think you can take a shorter backswing when the ball is traveling faster because you borough power from the ball itself and also you have less time. Like when you play mini tennis you shorten your backswing. Also wrist lag is easier to happen with a heavy racket.
The key here is that backswing needs to be fluid and store centrifical force. Your backswing should be able to be "charged up" by your body rotation in order to use your arm as a spring.
you are great coach and I took so much from your videos! video about FH synchronization from top to down is amazing ! Though on this topic.. I think atp forehand is far superior :) Look at Iga Świątek at French Open 2020.. she destroyed her WTA style opponents with ez. I know people transitioned from WTA to ATP forehands .. but I never heard anybody with ATP FH transition to WTA style :)
Very true
You can go from long to short but you can never go from short to long on the FH
Iga Świątek, 2020 French has ATP forehand? Something about her seemed different then other players when I watched the tournament. Now I know!
I love Iga Swiatek, she has a lot of power in her strokes that compares to ATP players.
It was def like a man playing woman. She's fun to watch
i had a look at some of her swings, it appears somewhat unique. i think she has really good timing.
I like him. Great Vid
Coach great video as usual. But is it necessary to intentionally convert ladies’ or juniors’ WTA forehand to ATP forehand? There are TH-cam videos showing teenage Shapovalov had a WTA forehand, then eventually ATP forehand when his body matures.
Not necessary
Boys will naturally shorten takeback as they incorporate heavy topspin that requires the contact to be further from torso
I really want to send him my forehand video for correction.
I am a HUGE fan if Justine Henin. She had what you would call an “ATP” forehand.
I am curious what you think about this. Do you think it’s because she came up through a progressive system that used progressive balls and court sizes, or because she was smaller and needed the extra range in the arm?
Full disclosure, in my junior program (grassroots) I am strongly enforcing compliance to Tennis Canada recommendations to keep the court scale to suit the stature of the players. It drives me CRAZY when kids, parents and coaches (!) act like a bigger ball is correlated with skill development.
I think that this is why WTA forehands are so “rangy”. It has nothing to do with “strength” but how children are developed on a giant court.
Hi Joel
I’m not sure how Justine developed her game (1-hander as well)
It is very rare in the women’s game
@@IntuitiveTennis rare indeed, as is adherence to a progressive model. In that, Belgium was a leader with Henin, Clisters, Malisse and the Rochus brothers as poster children for the program.
it seems to me, capriati also has an ATP style FH
@@LaBambaCL she had a powerful game, but I’m not so sure about that...
cdnph.upi.com/pv/upi/5276976461b82948dcbb970fac12232c/NYP2001090560.jpg
@@IntuitiveTennis i saw henin once on the practice court. her hitting partner was a man. she would practice returning his serves etc. her bkhd looks really nice. i believe her fh is the classic style. henin is a small woman, who swings a big game.
Are you up to give feedback or your view of other tennis channel matches? Just curious
The ATP forehand is more efficient. My coach overhauled my forehand to an ATP style with positive effects.
How is Layla Fernandez' and Emma Raducanu's forehands? Are they WTA or ATP forehands?
Nikola is truly coach from God. “Emma, you have such a beautiful forehand! Let me ruin it for you” LOL 😂
Every coach says that😂😂 this comment is so true🔥
LOL ;)
Intuitive Tennis living up to its name 😂
Intuitive is a great word...at some point you got to do what "feels right."
Doesn't her grip dictate this swing?
I think so too. Her grip is closer to bevel 5 than 4.
Hi Nikola, love your videos,, I leave in Broward and would be very interested in private lessons.
My question would be, has the ATP forhand always been different in shape size and contact point than the WTA forhand?
No the classic forehand had more similarities between ATP and WTA
It's the difference of strength between men and women. Guys don't need to take it a long way back.
I agree... but also in my view ... contact points could be better.
Justine Henin had a beautiful ATP style forehand (th-cam.com/video/KBioEMX2IdM/w-d-xo.html). One current player with an ATP style FH is Ons Jabeur (th-cam.com/video/tKBNziVLAtI/w-d-xo.html)
Gonzalez and Soderling has one of the best forehands in history with a big take back, all these "modern forehand" vids are just a can of worms imho.
Try this one 👉 th-cam.com/video/DnphtxmN4bE/w-d-xo.html
@@IntuitiveTennis same thing th-cam.com/video/8hA28Wqp0Fg/w-d-xo.html from over 10 years ago
Gonzalez and Soderling definitely had huge take-backs! Any forehand technique will have its strengths and weaknesses. It's all about how well you use them.
@@IntuitiveTennis I rest my case th-cam.com/video/Td9GdAS5_J4/w-d-xo.html
Is it because of wide shoulder and more muscles with men? Serena has muscles (still wta fh). But, a few women have apt forehand. No?
So why exactly do women in WTA have a different backswing than men on the ATP? If for women, the added momentum helps them generate more power, then why do then men not use it too? Is power not important for men? Or is it because men are stronger and they don't feel like they need the added power? Which would lead to conclude that there are other advantages to the ATP backswing. Is it speed and timing? More compact swing.
The main advantage of the ATP is spin. The power on some WTA comes close to the ATP (Sabalenka, Keys) but control is an issue on WTA at high speeds bc of the lack of heavy spin
It must have something to do with the strength of certain muscles. A female should be able to train these muscles to achieve a natural contact point that is a bit further away from the body. The question is what are these relevant muscles.
Ema, wear your mic so we can hear you.
We will work on improving audio
Medvedev has a wta forehand
pjcd1961 To an extent, yes. I'm not sure his forehand is all that good though. A male with a GREAT forehead who used the WTA style was Soderling.
He is womanish, so I guess that fits
@@Barbatian think if robin stayed healthy he would've learned patience? Ending up looking like mehdvedev. Dan can slap one but he knows it pays to be a pest
@@Barbatian could be the reason. His forehand is pretty good ĺreliable, can hit winners). Stats? Nice looking wife btw. Lol
@@Barbatian Moreno was manish. No wta fh. Fits.
Can you take the racquet too far back?
If the ball has a low bounce,your racquet will be too late making contact with the ball with a big swing..Also the bigger the gap between racquet and the ball the harder it is to time and middle the ball.
Yes, there's always an extreme to anything, although some players can get away with it.
WTA --> ATP --> WTF?
:)
honestly bad technique. yeah she's better than tennis than literally most of us but it's NOT because of this technique.
watch a nadal forehand in slow motion after this video. good lord is that a much better movement
So if someone tells a guy they swing like a girl 👧 it may not actually be a bad thing. 😉😆👍
I guess it all depends on their genetic predisposition.....🤔
Here you are asking her to start from tap the dog position but in another video you have condemned it?????????
Context of the video I was attempting to ruin her forehand
@@IntuitiveTennis OK. Got it Sir. Thanks. 🙏
You should have explained what is WTA and ATP. Dont assume averyone knows. Nice video still.
He already has a video on the topic
Women's Tennis Association and Association of Tennis Professionals (men's) They are the world governing bodies of tennis..There is talk of merging the two..Confusingly there is an ITF (international Tennis Federation ) this body handles mens and women's international tournaments eg the grand slams and Davis cup etc etc..It is also the guardian of the tennis rules and anti doping cheats
th-cam.com/video/CULb5lSjE_g/w-d-xo.html
There you are
I watched this video. He dont explain what the names are. The explanation in this post was great. Thanks
@@viniciusmaciel7946 also google exists.
Boy is she bored, couldn't stop yawning.