Repertoire: The IDEAL Haydn "London" Symphonies
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ต.ค. 2020
- Twelve magnificent symphonies, twelve different conductors, twelve magnificent performances--here's a survey that will give you an excellent sense of who the major players are in Haydn's music, both historically and much more recently, including both modern and historically informed interpretations and instrumental ensembles. It's all wrapped up on one tidy package. Check it out! You can't hear enough Haydn,
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It boggles the mind to listen to Haydn and realize that with over 104 symphonies each is unique; each has something new and different; yet each bears the unmistakable stamp of this master.
I'm a Tuba player & Haydn Symphonies are some of my all time favorites 👍
I decided to do an experiment. I went on Apple Music and made a playlist of all of your suggestions for the London Symphonies Ideal cycle. I had heard at least half of these before, but over the course of a week or so I listened to them all off and on. What an experience! I've since done the same with most of your other Ideal cycles (though some contain recordings that I can't find online). I think the Haydn London Symphonies cycle is the best, and here's why. Better than any other, it demonstrates how flexible these works really are. The range of interpretation in these works is astounding. Without hearing all these performances together like this, I don't think it would have occurred to me. It was such a joy to revisit some of these recordings like the Beecham and the Szell. And many were as you said - outright sleepers. I don't think I'll ever be satisfied with a version of the "Drumroll" that doesn't at least try to do something like Haroncourt. And the Scherchen Military symphony! I remember I heard it years ago and thought he was just being weird. Now I see WHY he made that choice and how RIGHT it was to use the percussion in that way. Just a marvelous time spent with Franz Joseph Haydn being reintroduced to what an incredible (and underrated!) composer he was! Thank you.
Thanks so much for sharing you experience and for taking the time to listen so carefully! I'm very touched and humbled that you took that list seriously and I'm delighted that you found the musical experience rewarding.
One of the things that I have always liked about Haydn symphonies is that there are so many of them and one can just jump in and grab one, explore and try to collect them all. This was particularly true when I was a kid and had not yet heard very many of them.
Thank you David, I was really looking forward to this one!
Bless you Dave for highlighting Dorati's set. It was a cultural milestone when it first came out, and I doubt anyone will ever equal it, much less attempt anything so bold, regardless of composer ever again. It's hard to believe that before Dorati so much of Haydn's symphonic output was unknown to the listening public. If I had to pick one box set of any Western Classical Music that is the most essential of all, it certainly would be Dorati's Haydn. You've mentioned this box on another occasion, and as far as i'm concerned you can't mention it enough, and I thank you for it from the bottom of my heart.
As useful, insightful and delightful as ever ❤️
Your videos are not only the most informative reviews of classical recordings, but they are also hilarious. The gallows and potty humor are sincerely appreciated...this music is too much fun not to have fun talking about it.
Dear David, wonderful video, as always. I went to You Tube and listened to some of your recomendations. Indeed Szell’s 93 is magnificient. But my heart is, and always be, with Jochum’s DG box.
It is sooo good to see Papa Haydn get some serious love. My very first exposure to classical music was a Beechem vinyl of two Haydn symphonies. It was a gift that launched me on a lifelong, passionate love affair. Beechem had an affinity for the earthiness and directness of Haydn's melodies. The man seemed to have tunes falling off his shirt sleeve. There is no other composer that I find myself humming along to more than him. The melodic ideas just keep on coming. It's the same with his (sadly neglected) piano sonatas. Great list! Thank you. And I will search out all your recommendations..
why do you call him papa haydn?
@@classicalperformances8777 That's what he was often called late in life when he became quite celebrated.
Thank you Dave for yet another wonderful video. Because of you I’ve started listening to Haydn!
Now what about a Bruckner 8 review?
Your fans demand it! 😉
Men wearing swords and women wearing hoop skirts are two excellent ways of enforcing social distancing.
You're becoming a legend, thanks!
You're welcome!
@@DavesClassicalGuide "Becoming"?
When half of the items in my shopping carts and wishlists suddenly say "This item is no longer available from the seller you selected", then the proper term might be "Became a legend"!
So glad you think highly of Bruggen. I bought a CD of him doing Haydn back when his was the only or one of the only original instrument recordings and was just blown away. It’d how I learned to love Hayden. The propulsive quality Haydn gets is a lesson for playing any type of music, and Bruggen really pulls that off.
Wow. I told to my wife today at 10:00 Its time to him to do a video of London Symphonies. We were at a 7 hours travel by car listenning to 100 and 101. And its 17:00 now and here it is. Fast delivery. Thanks
Keep up the good work David! Some of my friends think I am ?nuts! for having All the Haydn Symphonies, Piano Sonatas,
String Quartets, Oratorios/operas..etc as other works...I have always delighted in Haydn 's humor, grace , inventiveness, and genius.....It all started years ago as a young lad who foolishly "wasted" (parents) his money on the Complete Quartet boxes (lps)of the String Quartets (Aeolian Qt) , Piano Sonatas (McCabe)and Symphonies (Dorati) ....the looks I got carrying those lp boxes in the door...but a most pleasant and fulfilling addiction...kind of infectious delight you actually help prople by spreading :-)
Good for you!
The first Haydn I ever bought consisted of a slow purchase of many LP boxsets of the Dorati each hauled down from the top shelf downstairs at Farringdon Records, Cheapside. So apart from the intro to Haydn it always reminds me of the man who ran that section, Tony, and his sage advice -as well as his uncanny resemblance to the younger Rodhdestvensky. Dorarti will always have a special place in my heart and nothing would make me part with that set.
I've only begun to listen to Haydn's symphonies. I wanted to buy the London symphonies set first, but couldn't decide what would be the best choice, so I bought 3 CDs of Mackerras from Telarc. (they include #31, 45, 100, 101, 103, 104). A bit surprised Mackerras couldn't make it to your list! It would be greatly helpful if you do the repertoire video on London symphonies, too! Anyway thanks for another great video!
Enjoyable talk. I’m glad you recognize Szell’s magnificence - no need to almost be defensive in recognizing his excellence. I’ve also greatly enjoyed Harnoncourt’s Symphony performances (Dvorak, Haydn, Schubert and Mozart) with the Concertgebouw. I believe you recognized him in some of your individual Dvorak Symphony reviews but it would be great to hear your assessment of his Schubert Symphony cycle with the Concertgebouw.
Thank you for your recommendations, Mr. Hurwitz!
Thank you, this was very well done. In return, I shall dedicate this weekend (including the balance of today) to listening to the London Symphonies, including the contributions from your commenters.
Wonderful!
A word of warning to Qobuz users. The Bernstein cover says NY Phil, but the track info says London Phil. Not having the recording, I don't know which it is. More importantly, they switched the track info--the 99th is really the 98th and vice versa.
Absolutely first rate commentary. Bravo Dave!
Dave, Greetings from the Penal Colonies. Here is my take - this was a bugger to do as Beecham et al warrant multiple references
93 - Beecham
94 - Roy Goodman Nimbus
95 - Jochum 9DG
96 - Dorati
97 - Szell
98 - Davis
99 - Solti
100 - Harnoncourt Concertgebouw - a wonder of the world
101 - Monteaux
102 - Bernstein
103 - Tate
104 - Karajan DG
I agree with you on 100. Its the best version. The Hermann Scherchen has entertainment value though
@@rsmickeymooproductions4877 thanks Richard. If one were to nominate the "Coming of the Anti-Haydn" Cycle, Fey and Norrington would have to be mentioned on multiple occasions! Best wishes, B
Great talk. The London Symphonies are some of my oldest friends. My favs are 93, 95, 97, 98, 101 & 103.
I was so happy you said McGegan at the end. I was worried you would miss this recording out.
Not often you hear a symphony's performance recommended for its imitation of a fart - "he really lets it rip" lol. But thank you Dave for such an insightful and sympathetic overview of all the symphonies and for emphasising the need for guts and gusto! True that symphonies without nicknames get neglected; I especially like 98, 99 and 102, the real "Miracle" as it appears that people in ensuing years mixed up the two symphonies and the chandelier incident actually occurred at 102's premiere in 1795. The Davis/Concertgebouw performances are my staple but it's great to hear Beecham remembered and appreciated. Some others in that period were good; my father had no. 102 with Basil Cameron and the BBC SO at a live Prom, which fully brought out the dynamics and drama especially in the Scherzo. Haydn was regarded at the time as a "noisy composer" - that says it all about not having "prissy baroque" performances, NOT authentic! And I had been put off Harnoncourt by some anaemic Bach and was reconciled by hearing him do 102 live. Finally, I heard some great live performances by Cem Mansur conducting the City of Oxford Orchestra in the 1990s with plenty of life and fire; sadly the only ones recorded were 92 and 104, in a dry unflattering studio acoustic.
Great video. I had not heard any of these before! Can’t wait to be 30 or 40 with plenty of listening under my belt.
Take your time!
Haydn 102, Klemperer. My favourite recording of one of a very favourite handful of symphonies. I love your description of this performance. So many thanks from George [in the UK].
Thanks for listening
@@DavesClassicalGuide I do tune to your channel quite often. We had a discussion about V Talch in Dvorak a while ago.
Glad to find your view on Brahms' First Symphony as well. Strangely we agree about a third of the time. No other music critic comes close to correlating their views with mine like you! Like you I don't mind an older recording when the music making is the tops!!
I also like your way. Enthusiasm for your favourites and not denigrating the rest!
Best wishes, George
I must say that I absolutely love this channel. I came across it a week-ago and have been watching it ever since. Thanks Mr Hurwitz for being very informative and very funny. A good combination, if you ask me. How about doing something on the criminally neglected symphonies of Arnold Bax.
Thank you and welcome! I do plan to do some Bax. I discussed "Nympholept" already in one of my music chats.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Haven't watched that video yet. I'll check it out. Cheers!
Absolutely wonderful video - thanks. Would love it if perhaps, when time allows, for you to record a video with best recommendations of the Haydn piano sonatas.
I remember a totally slick advertising gimick from the 1970s. Some cigarette company was promiting their "100s". I have never been a smoker, but I gather "100s" were longer than standard cigarettes. Anyway, if you cut out coupons from boxes of these cigarettes and collected enough of them, you could get prizes that had "100" in their names. I can't remember any of the other prizes, but one was "100+ Haydn symphonies". I surely must have been the Dorati set.
I wonder if anyone who smoked 100s in those days is still around to confirm that I didn't just dream this?
Haydn, my all-time favorite....
Since you brought it up, I did go and grab my Dorati Haydn box from my overflow storage. I do love this box!
While I was at the overflow, I also grabbed 2 discs of Ives (Stokowski and Andrew Davis). I went from Robert Browning Overture (was Charles Ives crazy?) to Haydn #96, back to back!
Even though it appears you try to stay away from too much discussion on singers, you should do a video on Ives songs. I have been getting into them lately. Fascinating stuff
I plan to.
Great master David Hurwitz. I would love to see your ideal Bach cantata cycle, one by one.
I really wasn't all that keen on Haydn, precisely because as you point out, I wanted him to be Mozart or Beethoven. The works that turned me around were the Sinfonia Concertante, the piano sonatas, and the piano trios. I began to get a feeling for Haydn's expressive range. I managed to get to sing in the chorus of a Creation performance with the local orchestra. The work delighted me, and of course months of rehearsal allowed me to know it pretty well.
I must say that your Haydn Symphony Crusade has been extremely helpful to me to get a handle on the symphonies. Thank you.
Ah, but "The Seasons: is the greater oratorio, even though it has no real "plot". Bohm and Harnoncourt great there, This is a fine list, and I know many of the recordings, but for getting Haydn's humor, there's nothing like Beecham. Not as well recorded as some, and the editions aren't always the latest, but you'll revel in Haydn's jokes.
@donaldjones5386 No argument from me, although I think van Swieten butchered the Thomson text. But to me vocal music depends less on text and more on music, although it's nice when you have great music expressing a great text.
Thank you David. I thought I was the only who is not impressed by Van Zweden. I have heard him many times here in Amsterdam, on the radio and records, and not once I was impressed.
A few more things have popped in my head pertaining to this:
You were right to call out the achievement of the Dorati set. I wonder if a single orchestra/conductor will complete a full set of Haydn symphonies ever again? It's such a monumental task and with the recording industry a shell of itself... When haydn recordings appear now they all seem to be by chamber orchestras or period instrument groups. It would be nice to have a standard symphony orchestra record them.
Back to Dorati, the more I listen to those recordings the more I am convinced that the sound is a little thin for my comfort. I doubt any of those recordings would be my favorite if I had them on their own. I was reading somewhere recently (I think it was in the liner notes to the new Dorati Haydn/Mozart Eloquence set) that the Haydn symphony project was originally going to be with the Vienna Philharmonic. I have no idea if that is a true statement, but it is tantalizing to think about.
I'm surprised there has not been more in the way of Dorati boxes. Any complete Decca box would probably be too massive, especially with all the Philips stuff out there also. But Dorati is someone that I rarely seem disappointed by and the amount of repertoire he conducted is so varied.
@@jasonhurd4379 yes, I know. I meant going forward.
I agree with all your choices except No. 94. For me, it's hands down Monteux and the Vienna Philharnonic, one of those performers' most delicious achievements. The joy of it leaps out at you.
A very good choice!
My late father came to classical music in his later years. He didn't like "heavy" music, and his first choice always seemed to be Haydn.
In other news, Klemperer's "Clock", like his Stravinsky "Pulcinella Suite", was exquisitely droll. He could do so much with a slowish tempo and incisive articulation, not to mention the Philharmonia woodwinds.
Another marvelous musical tour. The one omission that struck me was the absence of Mogens Woldike with the Vienna State Opera Orchestra in symphonies 99-104. They served as my introduction to Haydn over 5 decades ago, and I still derive great pleasure and joy whenever I listen to them.
Yes! The winds were never swamped by the strings and the discs were only a few bucks each.
Oh my--far be it from me to criticize the versions you imprinted on, but those version are so dull and indifferently played compared to others. If you still enjoy them, please do, but in the game of comparisons I don't think they hold up very well.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Fair enough; the other choices you offered happen to be in my collection with the exception of Harnoncourt. Your impersonation of Klemperer's 'posthumous' Haydn was Haydenesque in its humor.
My favourite of the Haydn symphonies - and I adore all of the London symphonies - is the 103rd, known as the “Drum Roll”. And my favourite recording is the Philharmonia Orchestra conducted by Leonard Slatkin.
Get your Red Hots and a chandelier to the face! Thanks for this well-curated ideal cycle and the history of Haydn as percussionist and percussion composer - people who dismiss Haydn as lovely but shallow don’t credit his orchestrational innovations. A pity expanded percussion didn’t take root until long after the London symphonies.
Your Haydn reviews have been very enjoyable to watch. Maybe at some point you could do a review of "The Creation".
Sure, at some point.
Thanks! I wish some of these recordings were still in print (e.g. Goberman). I was, for a long time, debating upon getting that set, and I never did, and now it's not available.
Thank you! Haydn is such a great composer who needs all the respect and praise that he can get. I knew you’d have to pick Szell for 93 if for no other reason than the best bassoon “fart” in the slow movement. His 97 is also my favorite, so regal! No one does the minuet as well. The other conductors I go to for Haydn are Davis, Bruggen, Mackerras, McGegan, and Bernstein of course. I was surprised you didn’t pick Mackerras for 100 or 103, but then there are so many great recordings of Haydn out there.
I was annoyed at Telarc--I don't see them as still in print (though you can get them used). But yes, of course, Mackerras....
I just listened to the largo cantabile from Szell's 93. You're right: it's a real rip.
David, will you be doing a “best of” Haydn’s complete piano sonatas? While I enjoyed the Naxos collection, I just can’t get past Jeno Jando’s humming in some of the recordings! I’m now enjoying Ronald Brautigam’s recordings on fortepiano. I’m normally not a fan of the sound of the fortepiano, but it’s so sweet and crisp in his recordings of Haydn’s solo piano music! It’s beautiful!
Also enjoying the Haydn Sturm und Drang symphonies by the English Concert (Trevor Pinnock). I have the Naxos complete Haydn symphonies, but I’m really enjoying this set of the Sturm und Drang symphonies. I didn’t see if you had reviewed this before.
BTW: Love your CPE Bach book in the Unlocking the Masters series! So awesome that you decided to write a book about him for non-academics! I still await the day a book about Bartok is released in the series, and I hope you would be its author!
Thanks very much. Yes, I do plan to do the Haydn sonatas, which are marvelous, but I'm not exactly sure when... The Pinnock set is very good but I don't have permission to use samples and it's not recent, so I don't know if I'll get to it as a video. It was reviewed (not by me) on ClassicsToday.com very favorably, and I fully agree with what was written there. I'm so glad you enjoyed the Bach book. Writing it was a real voyage of discovery for me.
@The Ultimate Classical Music Guide by Dave Hurwitz please don't forget a full traversal of the string quartets, either!😮😊
And of course the other brilliant Sinfonia Concertante of the classical era is instead referred to as his Triple Concerto - Beethoven's exquisite masterpiece. More than well worth a listen.
Thanks, Dave. Due to a timely viewing of this video, I was able to snag the one and only copy of the Dorati complete symphonies available on Amazon. The same box you hold in your recommendation of the concertante. The one with all the alternatiive versions & stuff. I shall see what shape the box is in when it arrives in the mail. The seller says it is "Used -- Acceptable," and adds that there is "heavy damage to the box," Butterworth that all there discs are there and in good shape. So isn't t this an indictment of the classical record industry? That the only good completely complete CD set of Haydn symphonies has to be acquired in this sketchy manner? I know the recordings from days of old, when I got them one by one on vinyl from a public library. there were no disappointments among them. Joe Stevenson
Oh yes, things are such a terrible mess now...everything is going digital and that's where we're going to be, I guess.
Thank you Sir
Curious to know your thoughts on the Nonesuch release with Leslie Jones and the Little Orchestra of London.
Second rate, mostly.
If you look at my classical music playlist on Spotify
Anything I have from the Haydn symphonies is all from that Antal dorati cycle it’s really amazing
Just for fun, here goes:
93 Herbig
94 Giulini
95 Schuricht
96 Bernstein
97 Szell
98 C. Davis
99 Karajan
100 Klemperer
101 Monteux
102 Jochum
103 Solti (traditional drum roll); Harnoncourt (wild tympani fanfare!)
104 Dorati
Truth is, I'm more than happy with any and all of these guys in any or all of the London symphonies they recorded, and a few of my "choices" above are interchangeable.
My personal choice for 99 and especially 102 is Mogens Wöldike & the Vienna State Opera Orchestra; his recordings of 99-104 are long out of print and ridiculously expensive when you can find them. Overdue for reissue! Likewise, Jeffrey Tate's recordings of all 12 need to be reissued in a single box. Meanwhile, at $7.99 for the set of all 12 symphonies, Herbig's box is one of the Haydn bargains of the century -- and not just that. If you love Haydn a la Bruckner in a big, reverberant church acoustic, purchase it forthwith!
~ John Drexel
Great talk, now I have to listen to the Symphonies I don't know yet. You know, there are so many ;-) Funny to hear how you mentioned Dennis Russel Davis. As a native of Linz, Austria, of course I attended a performance of Mahlers 5th with him conducting the Bruckner Orchestra. While the musicians played technically brilliant, his interpretation was really odd. Very strange tempo choices and articulation. I never watched a performance with him conducting since...
You haven't missed anything. Davies is, as you say, a very odd conductor in any music composed before, say, 1960.
This is fantastic. Thank you so much! What do you mean specifically when you say #98 is Haydn's most "Mozartean"? Also, I'd love to hear your thoughts on Haydn's sinfonia concertante in B-flat!
I think most of the Mozartean aspects are in the 98th's second movement: It's a homage to the slow movement of the Jupiter. And the God Save the King quote is also similar to the Agnus Dei from the Corronation Mass. I believe Haydn wrote it after learning Mozart had died. Haydn also shifts some of the dramatic weight to the finale by casting it in sonata form, as Mozart did in the Jupiter.
Ernst Märzendorfer with the Vienna Chamber Orchestra give good old Dorati a run for his money, too. A much underrated set in very good sound.
Mediocre performances.
I wonder how long til Thielemann starts to do his Haydn cycle? 🤔👻 Unfortunately, the Dorati now seems to be out of print. I can't seem to find it.
I fully understand Haydn’s genius. IMO the 104th is the apogee of the “classical” symphony without a doubt. I heard Jockhum with the LPO conducting some of the London symphonies but I was in my teens and don’t recall a lot about the performances unfortunately.
Hey Dave ! Love your "show" ! I go back aways. What's your take on the old Woldike/Vienna State Opera Haydn?
"Old" is the operative term, I think! Thanks for writing.
I’m disappointed that you didn’t recommend Gerard Hoffnung for the Surprise symphony. Well I know he only did the second movement but that was quite enough. His interpretation was unique!
Well, you've mentioned it now. Good pick (for that one movement).
For my own part I find choosing such a list for these 12 jewels too daunting, I'd easily name 2-3-4 equally good performences for each symphonies. On the other hand I'd like to add the beautifully played and recorded Nos 94 & 101 by Pierre Monteux and the Wiener Philharmoniker as equal alternatives to any.
One of the wisest conductors I've ever known maintained that the three most underrated composers in Western classical music are Handel, Haydn and Dvořák. And I'd say Haydn is the most underrated of the three.
Underrated by whom?
@@ThreadBomb Not by me!
@@ThreadBomb Not by me!
About 20 years ago I found in a cut-out bin at Tower a CD on the Curb Classical Collection label (a company based in Nashville) with Symphonies 99, 100 and 102. The performances feature the Dresden Philharmonic (NOT the Staatskapelle). Kurt Masur conducted 102, and Gunter Herbig conducted the other two. I suspect these may have been derived from Berlin Classics or another German label - the small print in the booklet also mentions "Curb-Edel Entertainment," whatever that is. Regardless of where they're from, they are beautifully played and recorded, and led with style and (where appropriate), vigor. Have these ever crossed your desk, David? Do you or any of your listeners know where they originated?
Yes, they are old Deutsche Schallplatten recordings if I remember correctly (and spelled it right).
I agree Herbig's is beautifully played and well conducted. I bought a few of the discs singly, but you can get the cycle very cheaply now.
Great selections...you took all my favorite cycles...Bruggen, Davis, Beecham, Bernstein, Szell, Harnoncourt, and especially the Dresden/Jochum. So I'm going in a different direction. Since I have no sense of humor, I couldn't care less about bassoon burps and timpani tantrums. Lest we forget that Haydn is simply fantastic music, when played with care, dignity, and a spice of gusto, even for us fun loving but ultra serious dinosaurs, here's a list of great Haydn conductors and recordings:
93: Karel Ancerl/Berlin RSO (Tahra) But I'm going to also mention the neglected Maerzendorfer cycle here...a great 93 as well.
94: SURPRISE!!!! I'm not going to name one of my favorites, the Furtwangler recording. I'm reserving him for 88: My choice is the zippy, stylish Leopold Ludwig/NDR Hamburg (Vox). My second choice was actually Knappertsbusch--these conductors understood geniality, charm, and dry wit as well as any alive today.
95 Casals/Marlboro Festival--for the shear love of it...not just because pick up orchestras are "authentic" in Haydn.
96 van Beinum/Concertgebouw. A great Haydn conductor.
97 Hermann Abendroth/Gewandhaus Leipzig. I'm not kidding, this is a generation that knew how to swing and dance without popping their shirt studs. Try to keep up with him in the last movement.
98 Fricsay/Berlin Phil. Of course, a great Mozart conductor with a big, luscious orchestra, but...all of these Haydn conductors were great with Mozart. Name a great Haydn conductor who couldn't conduct Mozart....
99 Kubelik/BRSO (Orfeo) Graceful, lyrical, enthusiastic.
100 Schuricht/RSO Stuttgart (Hanssler). More old line stylishness.
101 Reiner/His Orchestra (RCA). Oh it's definitely "his" orchestra, all right: big, bold, and pliant.
102 Barshai/Moscow Chamber Orchestra. Big and romantic. Need not shrink from Klemperer.
103 Markevitch/Lamoureux. Mentioned elsewhere...perhaps the greatest Haydn conductor except for...
104 Rosbaud/Berlin Phil. Greatest Haydn disc of all time.
Hmm. You've really got to work on that lack of humor thing. Good selection otherwise.
These are some great choices! What jumped out at me was Kubelik for 99. 99 is my second favourite London Symphony (after 102), and Kubelik's is a sentimental favourite of mine. I really like Kubelik in Haydn, and wonder why his Seasons seems to get overlooked (love that one). Also, going to give Rosbaud in 104 a listen. I acquire cds so voraciously that I buy them faster than I can listen to them (lest I lose my chance when they go out of print). To my great surprise, I actually had the foresight to buy Rosbaud's complete DG recordings, and then promptly forgot that I had them. Will move this one to the top of the order.
I'm assuming that the Lamoreux/Markevitch 103 is an old DG release that now is, sadly, AWOL. Correct?
@@olegroslak852 Yes...I very much like Kubelik's Seasons and Creation (with Lucia Popp, a favorite). I should get his recordings of Haydn Masses as well, maybe you have? The Rosbaud box of DG was a great collection...now there's another 104 as well in the Hanssler box...I have still yet to get one or two of those box releases. It is very tempting to try to buy everything in a hurry, as you say. My Markevitch Haydn 103 (with 104) is an Epic LP, but that means it was also on Philips. The only CD release I know about is on a label that has variable success with sound. If there was a release on DG or Universal, I haven't seen it. Too bad it wasn't included in DG's excellent Markevitch box.
@@jeffrosenfeld5781 "DG's excellent Markevitch box" ... which I have, of course.
@@olegroslak852 I'm not surprised! Total aside, but my favorite moment in that set is the brazen tonal color trombone choir in the opening of the Consecration of the House Overture. Unbelievably fantastic, isn't it?
Thank you Dave for this great video. You show a lot of box sets when illustrating the different symphonies/conductors so my question is, what in your opinion (or other's opinion) might be the best "readily" available set to have just to experience ALL the symphonies in one set? Colin Davis? Bernstein? Bruggen? I'd be willing to sacrifice a little execution to sound quality.
Also, does Neville Marriner and the ASMF factor in at all? I used to have a number of Haydn's "named" symphonies by him/them back in the day on LP and remember them fondly.
Thanks again for the very entertaining video.
Jochum or Bruggen.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you Dave! (I'm a Dave too, or do you strictly go by David?). Any opinion on Marriner's work with the ASMF? There's a box set available of all the named symphonies they did that looks tempting.
Thanks again.
@@twigfarm4229 Dave is fine, and I made a video about the Marriner Haydn box. Have a look in the Haydn playlist.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you Dave. Will give it a watch. By the way, my wife & I watched your Best & Worse Sibelius Symphony Cycles video last night - What a hoot! Absolutely great video! AND great cat! Loved the sleeping cat! Picked up the Berglund/Bournemouth cycle and, yes, CHEAP! Will also have to pick up the C. Davis/Boston to replace the LPs I lost when I sold my collection (4,000+ LPs).
Thanks again!
Picked up the Marriner box. Looking forward to revisiting some "old friends".
Thanks!
Going to do this without duplicating any of Dave's choices, as well as not duplicating conductors, although the usual suspects still make their appearances. Harder than I thought. Not MY ideal set, but surprisingly few compromises were necessary despite the restrictions. Also, although Beecham doesn't appear, he could easily be substituted into any slot below:
93. Cantelli NBC SO
94.Szell Cleveland (for the loudest, and most *together*, "SURPRISE!")
95. Fricsay RIAS Berlin
96, van Beinum Concertgebouw
97, Bruggen OAE
98, Toscanini NBC SO (Ho-Lee crap! Toscanini plays the living daylights out of this one)
99, Kubelik BRSO (a sentimental favourite)
100. Jochum LPO (BBC Legends) (love Jochum in this one. His studio version is just as great)
101. Mackerras St. Luke's
102. Markevitch ONRF (I actually prefer Klemperer, though, who conducts this like mature Beethoven, and in better sound. Markevitch is more like early Beethoven)
103. Davis Concertgebouw
104. Bernstein NYPO
Forgot about the Sinfonia Conertante. Has to be the Camerata Academica/Vegh (of course).
Szells "fart' is incomparable. Totally agree with you about Szell/Haydn.
And Szell HATED harpsichord accompaniment in Haydn. Another Szell salty remark about the harpsichord
Thank you for another interesting video. It's a shame you left out the full cycle of the London Symphonies by Marc Minkowski and Les Musiciens du louvre on Naive. I think it's very good. Also, when discussing full cycles of Haydn Symphonies, a mention of Antonini and his Haydn 2032 project would have been in the right place although far from completion it has 7 CDs out already and he's pretty much doing with Haydn Symphonies what Gardiner has done with the Bach Cantatas, full wonderful performance on period instruments.
Minkowski is grotesque, and Antonini only has 7 discs, so there will be plenty of time to discuss them as they come. But really, that Minkowski set is horrible. He is a dreadful conductor of orchestral music after the baroque period.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you so much for replying. I just thought the 2032 Project by Antonini was important enough to mention. As for post Baroque Minkowski, wow, we have to agree to disagree, especially about early Classical material, I do love his Haydn and his Gluck Orphée et Eurydice is also very good. As for later material, his Schubert Symphonies are indeed not a top selection but his live recording of Gorecky 3rd Symphony with Marita Solberg is phenomenal. (as was broadcasted on MEZZO, you can find it on TH-cam)
@@dannylior8590 Antonini is important but not in that context, and I agree Minkowski did a fine Orfeo, but I diid say "orchestral music." As an accompanist he's fine, most of the time. And I'm happy to agree to disagree there! You clearly know what you're listening to and I'm happy that you enjoy it enough to share it with all of us, me included.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you David, a pleasure conversing with you.
I love Haydn symphonies and have several of these recordings but if you are on a budget and want to get a cheap set is it Jochum or Davis? And while he did not record them all, I love Abbado's Haydn set!
Get Jochum. I think Abbado is pretty terrible, actually (in Mozart too), but if you enjoy them, then please go right ahead.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Somehow I completely forgot this exchange from a year ago. But I still like the Abbado. My complete set is Davies.
Damn you David your costing me money again !
There is so much great Haydn symphonies interpretations around,, so I cannot choose. You will help me. Thank you. And what about Michael Haydn? Very few symphonies have been made. Fabermann and Warchal two obscure conductors made some recordings and I do not find something else interesting. It will be great if you suggest some recordings of Josef Haydn's brother.
There is a major cycle of M. Haydn symphonies on CPO. I will be talking about them.
Agreed there aren't many choices for Michael Haydn symphonies. I believe cpo has finished recording the cycle. Performances are split between two orchestras (Slovak Chamber Orchestra and Deutsche Kammerakademie Neuss) and three conductors (Warchal, Goritzki, and Beermann). The ones conducted by Goritzki seem to me to have a higher energy level than Warchal's, but for some of the symphonies there is no other choice than Warchal.
Farberman recorded about half of the cycle for Vox back in the 1980s; his P20 is fun even if the tympani parts are dubious. Naxos started a new cycle conducted by Patrick Gallois a few years back, but it seems to have stalled after two discs. The Michael Haydn collection on Brilliant Classics includes some symphonies recorded by Farberman, Gallois, and Nemeth, but I haven't seen a complete listing to know whether it includes the whole cycle.
David Hurwitz and all in major keys!
I especially appreciate his sacred music. Such joy! Nobody did it better.
I've seen reviews here and there about Marzendorfer's Haydn--but never at Classics Today. Are the performances any good? How do they compare to Dorati and Fischer? They're still available although not exactly cheap.
I think they're pretty mediocre.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks. Best not to waste my hard-earned cash on second-rate stuff. Dorati--if I can get it. I already have Fischer complete, Haroncourt's Paris, and Bruggen 100 & 104.
Regarding symphony 98, that short "cembalo" part could be easily, and delightfully, played on a flute. I think a lot conductors might like to take that option, if only they could escape a judgement of heresy.
With respect to the Goberman set, do we know if Sony used the original LRM masters for this box set - instead of the Odyssey ones, which were reportedly flawed?
I don't care. They sound fine to me.
The only names I'd like to add to your list are Kuijken and the Petite Bande on DHM! My favourite HIP version.
I find them colorless and too small-scale.
@@DavesClassicalGuide We do agree on Minkowski. I was lucky to find a copy of the Kuijken box on HMV Japan.
And Sandor Vegh, 96 and 101 to 104 in great live recordings. In my humble and non expert opinion, no one comes closer to this music.
I forgot about Vegh... now I have to revisit those recordings.
Edit:
Though I do remember a lot of OoP Orfeo recordings can be very, very hard to acquire physically and sometimes digitally, which is not friendly to new listeners.
RabidCh you can find them on Presto Classical
a question for Mr Hurwitz: why must Harnoncourt and Bruggen conduct the minuet of No. 98 so fast? surely Beecham and Klemperer give a more convincing tempo?
You'd have to ask them. Silly is as silly sounds!
Don't rush me! I'm only up to No. 25 in my complete Haydn Symphony journey. Of course, your choices and countless others await me when I get there. So far, I can choose among Gobermann, Fischer, Dorati and the Naxolites in the earlier works (Hogwood too, but let's not go there), with good individual performances of some works by Fey (a favorite), Antonini and others. It's been a blast!
I agree that the Naxos series has been an unexpected strength, with Nicholas Ward and Helmut Müller-Brühl in particular. I haven't tried them all, however.
I would put Hogwood ahead of Fey (coarse) and Antonini (superficial).
93: Szell (COMPLETELY agreed)
94: Carlos Kleiber (one of his best orchestral performances, usually he's better in opera)
95: Bernstein (tough nut to crack...)
96: Solti (this one Solti got right...)
97: Beecham (but it should be Szell too..., particularly for that Wagner-esque/Schoenbergian slow movement)
98: Harnoncourt (by a mile)
99: Davis (either but preferably LSO, Giulini is great too)
100: Bruggen (could be Mackerras or Harnoncourt)
101: Mackerras
102: Jochum/London (should be Davis/Concertgebouw though)
103: Markevitch
104: Karajan/Berlin EMI (should be Markevitch, could be Fey if not for that rushed minuet)
Kudos for reminding us of the Kleiber 94...excellent stuff. I don't agree he's better in opera, but I agree he's amazing in opera. I just think he's better live, and that's where you have to get him in many operas (Otello, Boheme, Rosenkavalier, etc.). The same applies to Haydn and other orchestral works he didn't do for DG.
Don't Goberman and Scherchen both have the Vienna State Opera Orchestra?
I am unfamiliar with the van Zweden, the McGegan, and the Harnoncourt. The other 9 you selected, which I already knew, are all excellent choices, but I also think that there are so many good choices for these works that one could almost do an equally good playlist by assigning each conductor/orchestra to cover a different symphony than you did (being careful to avoid the few outright duds).
Among sets you didn't mention, I like Solti's with the LPO. Decca gave him much better sound than DG gave Jochum with the same orchestra. It's a closer call in the matter of interpretation though. Karajan's Berlin DG set is nothing special to me, but he did make good 103 and 104 with Vienna for Decca in the early 60s.
BTW, I just ordered the Harnoncourt set based on your information and on a listen to the first movement of 103 on line. He often seems to include an interesting mixture of brilliance and weirdness in his recordings so I'm looking forward to them.
How were they?
It's hard to talk about every single recording as if I remember everything, so I won't.
93 Dorati
94 Monteux
95 Szell
96 Jochum
97 Abendroth (RSO Berlin)
98 Koopman (Berlin Phil 2010)
99 Rosbaud
100 Scherchen stereo
101 Beecham
102 Klemperer
103 Markevitch
104 Bernstein
Sinfonia Concertante Bruggen
Hey David, will you wait 3-4 days before posting your next video? I am only at Haydn's #87, then I have to listen to Beethoven 1-9... You are going too fast. ;)
The videos aren't going anywhere! Go at your own pace. I never expected anyone to have to "keep up" with them. I am just trying to build by own catalogue that you can watch (or react to) at your leisure.
No repeats in conductors is hard for me, I'll try:
93 Dorati
94 Jochum/Dresden
95 Szell
96 Hogwood
97 Bernstein
98 Harnoncourt
99 Gielen
100 Scherchen stereo
101 Brüggen
102 Klemperer
103 Kuijken
104 Rosbaud
(Concertante: Rattle/Berlin)
Slatkin recorded all twelve symphonies for RCA with the Philharmonia. I've been tempted to purchase that set but your lack of mention of any of his Haydn makes me think otherwise. Am I right?
Actually, it's very good. He's an excellent Haydn conductor and I enjoyed it, but I never feel I have to mention everything in every talk.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you very much for the input. I'll consider the purchase seriously.
Anyone into Böhm and VPO?? (particularly "105"!!)
Herbert Blomstedt,in his 90's,has observed that many "new" conductors do do much Mahler but they are clueless about Haydn.
No argument from me there. But then, Blomstedt knew Haydn personally.
what makes a superb Mozart conductor? is it the tempi you focus on?the level of vibrato? what is your criteria, if you don't mind me asking?
I don't mind you asking, but the answer is in my reviews.
@@DavesClassicalGuide alright, alright:-) I'm still stuck in recovery anyway and your reviews do bring a smile to my face( even if you like Jurowski and Petrenko who I find sterile and mechanical, not musical at all).no matter. I';ll watch all your Haydn videos and I hope to get the answer. Your books by the way are terribly expensive to order to Greece, but perhaps I'll get a chance to read them on kindle. You sure have me interested. I love your way with the language too:-) thanks for all that. your Currenzis review had me in stitches the other day and I'm literally in stitches having removed some of my organs, so I'm not supposed to laugh that hard:-) Bless you, Sir.
@@classicalperformances8777 Oh dear. Please feel better and try not to split your sides (literally)!
Sorry for language errors.
What errors. Never apologize. We have your back.
It seems odd that the Vienna Philharmonic has recorded so little Haydn but mountains of Mozart and Beethoven
I am surprised that Haydn's C-Minor (95) was never coupled with another obvious C-Minor. Beethoven's Fifth.
Wow, no Mackerras!
I'm surprised Roger Norrington's Haydn didn't make the cut.
From ClassicsToday.com
CD From Hell: Norrington’s (Ob)noxious Haydn London Symphonies
Artistic Quality: 4
Sound Quality: 8
Roger Norrington’s approach to Haydn couldn’t be at further remove from “sounds that Haydn is likely to have heard,” and even if he did manage to achieve something along those lines, the issue, so many HIP practitioners fail to grasp, is not what the composer might have found familiar, but rather, what he would have found good. My guess, based on these performances, is that Haydn would have been dazzled by the wholly modern speed and precision of some of the playing (take the finale of the “Clock” Symphony, for example), while being utterly revolted by Norrington’s barbaric lack of sensitivity, grace, charm, humor, tension, drama, and taste. Trust me, it’s an easy call. This is “one formula fits all” music making.
The interpretive deficits appear everywhere, but most obviously in the strangely mannered string phrasing evident in many of the twelve symphonies’ slow introductions, or (the last example I noted) in the finale of the “London” Symphony. This usually takes the form of mannered, clipped articulation that chops up the melodic line (even staccato passages should retain some semblance of continuity), or at the other extreme, an oily legato that sucks the energy out of the principal themes. Given the high speeds at which Norrington operates the result sounds oddly pointless, like a caged hamster running faster and faster on its treadmill. Haydn’s symphonies have many colorful nicknames, but “The Rat,” “The Hamster” and “The Gerbil” were not, last time I checked, among them.
Worst of all, though, are the slow movements. Have they ever been played more quickly, indifferently, or with less character? Remember, several of these pieces actually take their nickname from their slow movements: the “Clock,” the “Military,” and the “Surprise.” At these tempos, Haydn’s “Clock” isn’t just running too quickly, the music loses all of its droll humor. The “Surprise” has no impact when it has so little advance preparation, and as for the “Military,” well, just compare the gusto with which other period performance-style conductors like Harnoncourt relish the cut and thrust of Haydn’s battle. Norrington’s sounds as though written for toy soldiers. Harnoncourt makes an excellent point of reference in the “Clock” Symphony too (sound clips). There’s a guy who, in this movement at least, really gets it.
Perhaps the most dispiriting performance here is that of Symphony No. 102, one of Haydn’s boldest, loudest, most proto-Beethovenian works. In Norrington’s hands it sounds puny and anemic, neutered by his excessive speeds and constant tinkering with phrasing and dynamics. Where Haydn demands explosive strength, Norrington offers a kind of mincing effeteness. This, when you think about it, is a remarkable achievement in a performance strong on trumpets and drums, in typically “historically aware” style. No, the reason for this disaster is an entirely contemporary one, resulting from the presence of a being Haydn never encountered in his own performances: a narcissistic, egotistical, excessively controlling modern conductor.
These performances were recorded live, very well, before a quiet audience. The applause at the end of each symphony is annoying (not to say embarrassing) and should have been edited out. I have no doubt that had Norrington not been involved, the Stuttgart orchestra could have given a performance, all on its own, far more satisfying to Haydn and to us, as well as truer to the music.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I unfortunately bought the set for $12 before watching your review, which I'm agreeing with more and more. The phrasing is off, lacking punch in places. I love a rapid first movement and finale to 102 but they seem slow compared to the second movement. I do love how the orchestra stays together, like a computer realized orchestral sound, but the brass bite does seem all the same with no nuances. I like speed where necessary, but I also appreciate breathing room for emotional emphasis. Perhaps this orchestra could do the London symphonies with a different conductor, just to see what a difference can be made.
Since you mentioned complete and near complete haydn cycles. I agree that Dorati may be the best of the lot. However, I dont care for his london cycle. Give me beecham, bruggen, szell, harnoncourt, Scherchen, for the reasons you stated.
As to the other complete, I have them all:
The naxos--too many different conductors and styles, too small orchestras; Davies--not enough fire, but not bad; fischer--I agree he was better on the early ones and the sound is an issue on some--nimbus reverb nonsense; Maerzendorfer was reissued off record dubs...the sound is quite good...still going through that. On the near complete: Goberman is great, a real flair for the haydn styles; bruggen is the best on sturm and drang and london for reasons you gave, but his paris are weak. (Pinnock is very fine for sturm and drang set....wish he did more) (For paris i prefer the boyancy of bernstein or weight of sanderling); roy goodman seems to capture the right balancd of moods and colors; I do like hogwood for haydn symphonies....
However, for me, I really like haydn done large, grand and romantic......I generally find HIP destructive. One can hear inner voicing, but you miss the grand impact. There are not too many representatives of this...... Sandor Vegh did about eight on orfeo. Then there is Furtwangler who did several. Toscanini, (early reiner), knappertsbusch...........Leonard Slatkin is not quite anti-HIP, but getting there and did a fine london cycle that disappeard. Oh yeah, his own drummer: scherchen is marvelous on haydn, so non-hip, but he captures the spirit of haydn so well...the dgg box is a gem.
Oh, yeah, Mogens Woldike did some nice non-hip haydn for vangard. And Leslie Jones did alot of haydn for nonesuch..london, haydn, sturm and drang etc......as i recall jones used a harpsichord continuo in the london....which seems rediculous...and you can really hear it. Otherwise jones was actually quite lively.
@@sirsamfay99 i looked at the set. Radio recordings from the fifties. The conductors interest me alot. I know their recorded work. But these are radio recordings.... how are the sound on them? Thanks.
@@sirsamfay99 thanks...i just ordered a copy.
@@jeffreylevy9130 Regarding HIP versions, I agree with you on Bruggen/Paris. Kuijken's set is much better. For the sturm und drang symphonies, Bruno Weil is very good. I found Goodman a bit faceless.
I woul like to add Gunther Herbig to the mix....
A very good set...
Do you listen to Herbig in other music, besides Haydn? After discovering his Haydn I explored a bit further and found he did quite well in Mahler, Brahms, Shostakovich, Beethoven, Schoenberg....I'm not sure why he's not better known, although I think I understand that he's more "sensible" than "sensational". Still, his Mahler 5 is quite exciting; the Beethoven 3s are very satisfying. And so on...
Jeff Rosenfeld I agree. He is one of the lesser known formerly East German conductors who knew what he was doing but was outside the radar. I heard him do a wonderful Bruckner 8th. You should try his Shostakovich on Berlin Classics.
As my attitude of aesthetics, I highly recommend recordings of Haydn's music(and all other composers maybe) by period instruments. Not only notes of period instruments have unique tunings of every style of work that refreshes people, their interpretations are always more professional(authentic) and natural(congenial) than those from modern that have been very unified in standard.
There is nothing about your statement that is true to the audible facts. This is not a matter of opinion.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks for your rapid reply. Those are only my humble general feelings.
Dave why do more orchestras across the US program and play Mozart syms than Haydn syms? It does not make sense; personally, Haydn's syms are just as or more creative and melodious than Mozart's. Is it that Mozart sells tickets and Haydn does not. Give Papa Haydn a chance. US Orchestras need to be enlightened. I would like to hear your opinion.
I listened to Karajan's London Symphonies because that's what they had in my local library. They're awful! I can't imagine a worse fit between a composer and a conductor.
what makes a Haydn 'bad' performance?
Again, the answer is in my reviews. 3+ decades worth of them.